When Science & Spirituality Come Together a New Perspective of Death & Grief is Born

People who have lost loved ones may find themselves struggling with how best to move forward when they cannot bring themselves or those left behind go on living as if nothing happened.  It is often hard to fully participate when your heart is heavy.  In this episode, you'll discover how Interfaith Minister Patty Furino helped to change a Professor's belief about death and grieving.

After the loss of his daughter, my guest Dave Roberts, a Professor of Psychology talks about walking the life of a grieving father.  He was going through the motions but was he thriving? It was meeting Patty at a workshop that brought them together that helped him change his perspective and look at his grief differently.

This meeting and their relationship would continue in ways that would have Dave question his beliefs, with the help of Patty and his daughter's guidance they were able to reframe his thinking.  It was a relationship that helped both of them grow in ways they couldn't imagine.

When the Psychology Professor Met the Minister.  You can find out more here:

When The Psychology Professor Met The Minister
https://psychologyprofessorandminister.com

You don't have to grieve alone, as a coach I can help support you. To discover how grief coaching can help you please book a FREE call with me

To access your FREE resource 12 Ways to Heal https://www.understandinggrief.com
Connect with me:

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Transcript

Anne DeButte: 0:08

Hello and welcome listeners to another episode in the Let's Talk About Grief Podcast. I'm your host and a Grief and Loss coach and author of Grief's Abyss. Our interviews are meant to give you comfort, inspire and give you hope, if you're grieving by learning how others have navigated their own grief. Today, my guests are David Roberts, a Professor of Psychology, and Patty Furino, an Interfaith Minister. Together they have written a book and we'll get to that in a moment. Welcome back, Dave, and I'm so happy to finally be meeting you, Patty. This is terrific.

Dave Roberts: 0:52

It's great to be back and always a pleasure.

Patty Furino: 0:56

I'm thrilled to meet you as well. I'm looking forward to a discussion with you. Thank you.

Anne DeButte: 1:01

You're so very welcome. Truly, it's my sincere pleasure. Okay. Your new book When the Professor Meets the Minister, that kind of sounds intriguing. So I'm curious. I'm going to just jump right in. How did you guys meet....science and spirituality?

Dave Roberts: 1:23

Well, how we met is probably the subject of another book all by itself. So much serendipity that brought us together. Initially, we met over the phone. It was August 25, 2010. I had been the one of the coordinators for grief conference in upstate New York at the Turning Stone casino, called Beyond Words, Creative Approaches to Grief. And registration was totally on line.

Patty Furino: 1:55

Okay, I was an interfaith minister for the Angel of Hope statue on Long Island. And I had heard about this conference that was being presented upstate New York. So I decided I was going to go to it. And when I was setting up my registration, online, to take my workshops, I put in the credit card to pay for it but right in the middle of it, my computer blacked out. And I didn't know how much of what I had typed in had gone through. So I went back to the website and saw there was an administrators name, and I called up that person was Dave Roberts, very gently, David says to me, you know, I'm glad you're coming from Long Island. That's wonderful. Have you lost a child? And I said, No, I haven't. But I volunteer at a local statue. We do a ceremony once a year. And part of my responsibility is to talk to the people when they're ordering a brick. Or I'm there if somebody needs to talk ust to be there for their experience by being a witness of their child's life. That brick is being a witness of that child's life. And my part was to be there. As an interfaith minister, my spiritual connection goes deeper, I feel things I hear things in my head. And it's just pure intuition. And David and I started to talk on the phone that day, and I asked him, Have you have you lost a child? And he told me about his daughter, Janine? And one question that I always ask everybody is, have you gotten any signs, anything in your daily life, or any time that you truly get a sense of chills, or something that draws you back into the presence of your child, whether it be a butterfly, a Cardinal, or something that you play on the music on your iPod? And it's a song and you get a sense of your child? That can be a sign? David said, Well, Pat, I really don't believe in signs. But there was one day, a Father's Day I'll have David, you tell this part of the story, it's yours,

Dave Roberts: 4:09

There was a Father's Day in 2009. I was sitting at my desk working on my computer, probably stuff for school. And my wife Sherry calls me very excitedly and says, Dave, Dave, you gotta say this. There's a double rainbow outside of our house, and it wasn't raining. It was just a bright, big, bright, double rainbow. And she goes, I think it's a gift from your daughter, Janine. And at that moment, I was thinking of Janine and I get that that kind of made sense to me would possibly be a sign. But for me, I had been getting in retrospect nudges from Janine, but for me, being based in science, I didn't really kind of figure out where this whole metaphysical piece with science fit for me. And plus an early grief signs were kind of a bittersweet reminder that she wasn't physically here. She wasn't physically present. You know, with Patti's guidance over the years, I've learned that signs aren't, you know, an indication of what I've lost, but they're an indication of what I've gained. Because I've learned now that I can use science to transform the relationship that I have with Janine to make it appear time based on love and light. But I didn't understand that in early grief. And plus, I was too, too grounded, I think in in scientific world, to really try to make sense out of everything else. But now I've made room for both perspectives in my life. So it's more of an integrative piece now between science and spirituality, that is shaped my perspectives.

Anne DeButte: 5:40

So that's how the two of you met was that one phone call? And the rest just sort of blossomed? Yes. It's interesting what you say, Dave, when you talk about, it was a reminder of what you lost, you didn't want to be reminded. So the signs were there, but it was too painful for you. And then now you embrace it. I guess we'll get more into that. And I think that's where you come in, isn't it Patty helping him

Dave Roberts: 6:10

Early on, it was all about a perspective shift as Patty gradually over the years of our conversations, helped me gradually shift my perspective in terms of how I viewed my daughter's transition. There was a change in terminology, it was changing verbiage. There was a change and it was a whole different perspective for me to look at the events leading up to her transition differently. And that's something that I've been able to in my classes, and when I'm companioning individuals, I try to plant those seeds for that transformation and shift in perspective to occur. You see if Patty's computer and not blacked out. When it did, we probably would have never met. So in retrospect, that was spirits way of intervening saying we got to get the two you together.

Anne DeButte: 6:56

I just love that. Yeah, our science friend here, introducing him to that.

Patty Furino: 7:07

It's communication, it's their way of communicating one reason that I went to the seminary was because I would hear things and see things differently than those around me. And I was considered odd. And then I wouldn't say things. And I became more introverted, or became flighty, because I didn't want them to know what was really going on. So David really helped me to embrace my knowing. Because that's how I put it but, I still wanted to have a normal life. So in my prayers, I would say to spirit, if this person is ready and open for my help, I will be and I say to God, I will be your instrument. So there are points that I'm Patty. And then there's points that I am the instrument of loved ones. The next part of when David he tells me about a rainbow. On September 3, which was my husband's and my anniversary, we went upstate for a getaway but I had an ear problem. I'd seen a doctor that morning, and he had to do some work in my ear. We then drove upstate to go get away, but my ear was so sore. And I said, I'm sorry, we're all the way up here. But I have to go home and get the medicine that he ordered at the pharmacy. So we packed up the car and headed home. And on route 17. Across the road was a rainbow. And I heard in my head that day. I need you to speak to my father.

Anne DeButte: 8:47

Oh my goodness.

Patty Furino: 8:48

Thats the part of the story that was pretty incredible. And my husband actually pulled over on the side of the road say, This is crazy. It's across the road. There's no rain. This only happens when there's moisture. My husband's very science based. We pull over and I got out the roof of my car and was taking video. We got kept driving the rainbow was still there 5-10 minutes later. I actually have the photos and the video still to this day that we have saved. Synchronicity or was that the way it was supposed to be serendipity? Yeah, exactly.

Anne DeButte: 9:25

And then did you get in touch with Dave to share?

Patty Furino: 9:29

Well, when I went to the September conference, okay. When I get to the conference that day, there were problems with the airlines. I didn't get to the conference till lunchtime. I missed all of the morning workshops I was supposed to be in. I get there and it was the speaker right after lunch became one of the keynote speakers. So I just stood in the background and I go into my first workshop after lunch, and I go sit down because I'm kind of disheveled. So now I get there. I go to sit in the first workshop and I hear somebody from across the room say, Patti Furina, and I'm like, who knows me. And Dave stood at the front of the room. He wasn't the speaker in the room. What was that call David? He was the room monitor. And he says, Pat, if you ran out Dave Roberts, and he puts his arms out, because that day on our phone conversation, when I told him, what had led me to wanting to go to the conference, I wanted to make sure what I was saying to parents was the right thing. You know, I wanted to learn more. Not for any certifications, but for True Knowledge. Yeah. So that day when we had shared he said, You know, when we meet, he says, I want to give you a big hug. I said, Yes, right back at you. So David stood at the front of the room, arms. Oh, big teddy bear. How about that hug. When we embraced I whispered in his ear. I think your daughter sent me a rainbow. And David just kind of nodded. Like I'm stranger. And he nodded at me. Oh, yeah. Okay.

Dave Roberts: 11:04

And I think Oh thats great, another sign. But the thing was I was so spent after that, after the planning for the conference, that I don't think I had the energy to take in one more piece of serendipity. I just didn't have the energy in me. You know, that as it turned out that rainbow was I think, a portent of things to come. And that takes us I guess into the to the next chapter in terms of how I got the Long Island.

Anne DeButte: 11:29

It was an invite I understand from Patty to visit her home in Long Island.

Dave Roberts: 11:34

Yeah, she had mentioned to me, she goes, if you ever get to Long Island, give me a call. And I will show you my Long Island. So we're going to pick this up to September 18. This is a day after the beyond words, kind of from some taking three of our conference presenters up to the Adirondacks to see the change of scenery, the change of colours. Yeah, so we drove up to old forge New York. And they're having this intense conversation about spirituality. It's about life, it's about death. It's about the afterlife. It's about signs, it's about staying connected to our loved ones. And all of a sudden, I'm driving in the car. As I'm driving, I tend to look up to the universe and say, I want to be where they are. And I in retrospect, there was my soul wanting something more than I had. This was seven years after Janine transitioned. And I was doing the walk of a grief parent probably pretty well. I was beginning to write about my experiences, I was beginning to present at compassionate friends conferences. I was beginning to to embrace the expected role. But it was obvious that I needed something more my soul needed something more. All I wanted was to have an increased understanding of spirituality. So I can have that type of discussion and perhaps in a process begin to shift my perspective to one of peace. And then as I'm driving, my old BlackBerry phone comes up, just randomly puts an ad that I had from my email that I had that a colleague of mine at the time, guy by name, Ron, Valano, he was doing a presentation on Long Island called Embrace the Power of Change. Okay, it was November, I think, was November 10, or 11th, I believe,

Patty Furino: 13:22

November 11 was the date. He chose it for the

specificness of the 11: 13:26

11 And it was 2010.

Dave Roberts: 13:29

Yeah it was 2010. I sat with it. And I called Patti. I said, I think I want to come out I want to go out to Long Island. Do you know any places or hotels or anything where I can stay? And she was like, you can stay with me and me and my husband Marco. And I'm thinking okay, is Marco going to be okay with us? And so you know, and I asked her several 100 times, is he going to be okay with it? Because the last thing I wanted to do was give the impression I was interfering with somebody, because trust me, it's gonna be fine.

Patty Furino: 13:58

Basically, we've only met twice. Yeah, we have a conversation on September 25. And then we cross paths and that quick hug. And I just say to him if you ever come down I want so these two things. And he calls up to say, Listen, you know, there's this guy, Ron Valano. Oh, that's doing this conference. You said to give you a call, so you could show me around, but I don't know anything about Long Island. How do I get down there? Do I fly? Do I take a bus? Do I drive? Where should I stay? And I said, Well, you could stay at the hotel, but he's doing this, you know this workshop in, but I'm going to be volunteering at it. Why don't you just come stay at my house? And he's like, Ah, are you sure? Because he's a total stranger basically. What are you married? I'm like, Yeah, I have a husband. You know, he's from Brooklyn, and he's a really cool guy. And David was like, Brooklyn, Italian.

Anne DeButte: 14:49

Yeah. Don't want to get in amongst the Italians.

Dave Roberts: 14:52

Thinking of myself. Boy. He's got a temper I'm in trouble. But it took didn't take me long to realize he's just a gentle soul. He's grounded. He's was very welcoming, very trusting. And I thanked him over the years for, you know, giving of Patty to me to just kind of be, you know, I mean, that was just a total act of selflessness, where he just, you know, three or four hours we would be on the phone. And he's part of my family now as his soul family as well as Pat's So, but yeah, then from there, you know, we got back from the workshop, and then then the magic happened. I mean, for me, I didn't question I didn't question anything that happened in that room. I can just say, without getting into too many details that Janine was front, front and center for that entire weekend. And within Patty being the conduit, gave me a new, a new perspective. I did not question anything that happened. I didn't my scientific mind didn't question bro reality of what I experienced because this was something that I had asked for. I asked for this, when I said I want to be where they are. What I asked for exceeded my expectations. I wanted a ABA just to be able to have an increased understanding of spirituality that would help me eventually find peace, what I got was a whole new spiritual, whole spiritual perspective, I got a whole new way of thinking.

Patty Furino: 16:29

If I can explain further, when I picked up David from the airport to go to this conference, he came in literally on 1111. And I went to JFK airport to pick him up. And from the moment that I started to head out to get him, I could see the personality of the Spirit coming through that was going to have her way. And she really wanted to let her father know that she was there, in a very firm, where she was going to walk away knowing she was there. Because I have that relationship with spirit knowing. Remember, I've been ordained since 1998. I learned all these new spiritual practices. I've read I, I dove in, I took workshops. And I knew there were many levels, that you could take your spiritual awareness and have different experiences. I knew many things were possible. But I don't know what David needs. I don't know if she wants to convince some of her presence or if she wants him to own messages. Every parent is different. Yeah, every person is different, what they need. So in the interim, I'm saying, you know, okay, I hear you, you know, I hear you, young lady. I know your energy, because that's what it's like, I hear a young lady whose energy is vibrant and bustling. And I could feel it and like, you got to do this. And you have to do that. And, you know, I want him to experience this. I want him to experience that. And I'm hearing and feeling all this. It's becoming one with me. Right down to the moment that when we got back to my house, after embracing the power of change workshop, we came back and I said David, Marcus, already tired. He had a busy week, he's already in bed, or he actually excused himself to go to bed. So David, you get comfortable. We'll meet in my prayer room, this fireplace there. And we'll get acquainted, though, I remember saying that words. And we'll get acquainted because honestly, I really don't know this man at all. Two phone calls, and phone calls leading up to him coming to stay and book his flight and how I'm going to pick him up. And it was all planning but we really don't know him and I don't know his daughter at all. Yeah, so I go and we he goes to change. And I, when I went into the room to change, to change into more comfortable clothes, instead of conference, a workshop close. I said to Janine and my head and the woman said, Listen, you know what your dad needs to know that you're here. And you know what I allow my body to experience. So I'm giving you my body as an instrument. That was it the simple prayer. I allow my this body to be your instrument, your father. And she really did show up. David could not he actually at one point looked at me saying Janine and the part of my consciousness that's hearing him come look at me from across this loveseat that we're talking. He's like Janine because the words as they were articulated through me, the way I was my my mannerisms, or I don't know, he even saw. I'm wondering because I'm just allowing my body to be an instrument and he's having conversations that only his daughter could have with him. First question I will remember is I was right there. My legs popped up onto the loveseat. I sat in this like Indian position, you know, like with your legs crossed. Yes. Just bounced. And she says, Why don't you listen to music anymore? And he just answered, because it reminds me of times that I had with Jan, it makes me so sad. And her response to him was, that's exactly why you should listen to what it reminds you of the times with me. And so the conversation started there. Okay,

Dave Roberts: 20:33

yeah, it was like that pretty much the entire weekend, where there were times that I actually, you know, knew I thought I was interacting with Janine or I knew I was interacting with Janine, just, by the way, Pat, his mannerisms were her vocal inflections. In Janine, I believe he had to come through in that way, because she knew I was a skeptic, about all matters spiritual. And she needed to convince me that this, in fact, is real. And we're going to have a conversation. And essentially, what she reminded me of is all the things that I was sacrificing, for lack of a better term, because I was walking the die was focused on honoring her memory. And she said, you know, you're honoring my memory, well, we're well, but you know, you have a wife, you've got two kids, you've got a granddaughter, you've got other categories in your life that you need to honor and that are going by the wayside because your focus is very myopic. And that's not what she said, but that's how I interpreted that,

Patty Furino: 21:32

you know, she didn't use those words.

Dave Roberts: 21:36

Those words, like I'm kind of giving down version, but she was very, very adamant that you know, you're gonna, you need to embrace all categories of your life. And that's over time. That's what I have learned to do. I identify, I don't no longer look at myself as just a bereaved parent, I look at myself, as my my child's transitions part of my life experience, I'll be the one that had the most influence on my perspective. But I also added my roles as a grandfather, a great grandfather, a husband, a father, a teacher, a mentor, these are all areas now that I've begun to embrace. And as a result of that, as a result of genes and continue to influence on my wife, which has been ongoing,

Anne DeButte: 22:26

and that sounds fabulous, because we are multifaceted, aren't we? We have all those parts of us. And when there is a death, it becomes very all consuming. The way you you express it, Dave, you're walking the part of a bereaved parent. How is that helping you heal and grow and move on and experience life? If that is you're just in that one little? It's almost like a pie, isn't it? You're in that little pie piece. So Patty, you helped with the help of Janine by the sounds of it to sort of shift this very science professor like farther into spiritual beliefs. You it sounds as if you got what you wanted. In that weekend, did you?

Dave Roberts: 23:22

Basically what happened exceeded my expectations, and that made me hungry for more so that when Patti and I continue the conversations, she would introduce me to Native American teachings of animals and nature with with Jamie Sampson 10, Ted Andrews, we talked about Brian Weiss, His work of past life regression therapy, we talked about integration and grief. We talked about ancestral healing, and the practices that she exposed me to my scientific mind. There's because there's always a natural curiosity when it comes to science, I became more curious about all things metaphysical. And every conversation we had made me hungry, to find my truth with the new perspectives. One of the ways that Patti shifted my perspective, and this is something that I share with my students. I was in jeans moment of transition. I was the last person and I always looked at I was the last person older and I was the last person to witness her breasts. I was the last person to witness her doc. And that memory haunted me in the years of early grief, and about two years and to our relationship for friendship and mentorship. Those are nine years I think after she needs transition. I told Pat about that. I tell Pat how that still, club Delta still results in a lot of pain. Because what if you looked at the moment of her death not so much the moment of death, but it's not that you were the last person to see her alive but you were the first person dosher into her new life. Move What if he looked at it that way? And I said, you know, I said, I said, that makes sense, because I began to now embrace the fact that we go on in some form. There we are, we begin with dance in other dimensions, I began to, to believe that. And I said, Yeah, I would maybe I was the first person to introduce her into her new life. And that helped me look at the moment of her transition a lot differently. And I look at that now with, you know, with with more peace than I than I had before. But that was just that simple statement in terms of reframing my perspective on her the moment of her passing that that gave me more that helped me achieve some more peace.

Patty Furino: 25:41

Beautiful, David held her hand as she transitioned, yes, in the new life, isn't that the best thing

Anne DeButte: 25:48

I've done looking at it from that,

Dave Roberts: 25:52

you know, to reiterate, just because I have found peace with everything that happens doesn't mean that I still don't yearn for presence, or that I still have sad moments. It's just, you know, I get, I understand, that sadness has been, is going to be interspersed with joy and other emotions throughout the rest of my life. And I've just learned with the tools that I've acquired, you know, over the years, and with, with Paddy's help, has allowed me to look at those moments of sadness differently.

Anne DeButte: 26:21

Absolutely. What was the purpose of value writing the books I understand, Patti, you were always a little hesitant, what? transpired for you to say, Okay, what we're doing it, why now,

Patty Furino: 26:37

it was spring of 2019, we'd had something else happen that was like one of those magical moments. And Dave was like cheese pad, I, you know, let's find a book together, you know, people would find this. So healing my students, because I come into David's class, David teaches the death and dying, and the different aspects of Psychology at Pratt, as well as Utica College. And I come in, and I teach, and every time I come in, there are always students always, that have the same level, or the beginnings of awareness. They don't have the same level. But they, you know, the younger generation, they call them indigo children. They're the new thinkers that it's they came in and they see truth, and they feel it. And they understand this other dimensions, in fact, is all part of entertainment. Or culture has shift, because of the internet, because of meditation, because of yoga classes. Yoga is a spiritual practice, that opens up magic, a mother doing spiritual practices while she's pregnant. That childhood I found it's, it's, we are becoming a more aware planet of humans, we come down to be human, human beings. And we this is the Age of Aquarius. We are there. So I, I see it astrologically I see it spiritually. I see it as a culture, I see it as a society, I say that things are being uncovered now that have laid underground at a point that we can start to embrace who we have been honor the past. This is a Native American teaching that I lived by honor your past as your teacher on a your present as your creation. On a your future as your inspiration. Jamie Sam's wrote that in one of her books, and it's truth, we're at that point now that more and more human beings are coming in with their spiritual presence intact. And with that, we as a society should start to look at it and figure out well with this awareness, how are we going to become a better culture? A better country? Yeah. Oh, and then how do we fit in with a worldview? And that's how we're going to feel all of the pains we have to start on the everyday level. And just in it doesn't matter who is in the position of leading, it's about the collective thoughts. So when we talk about grief, that's a chapter in someone's life. It's so much learning, yes. And be embraced. You know, David's daughter, ushered him into new awareness, a new owning of what he believes he never thought about what he believed. You asked him that question. So what was your answer? David, since you know, Pat, nobody ever asked me that question before. It's not a question that people ask because they're afraid. I asked the question because I want to hear what their perspective is and not have to force mine. I have a life 60 years of looking at different perspectives. So my perspective, of course, is very broad, as somebody that has walked a single path or not looked at it at all, isn't going to be able to wrap their head around it. Yeah,

Anne DeButte: 30:38

absolutely. So what I'm hearing you say, Patti, it was time to get this information out there. And that there is something greater than yourselves. Yes. Now, there is one part in the book. Can you just explain that experience in Virginia, that gave you a new perspective Paddy? about it in the book, but can you just give us very briefly what that may have been,

Patty Furino: 31:08

I had been to the Smithsonian Institute in Washington, DC. There are many museums in Washington, DC, and the United States decided that they were going to do one for the Native Americans, the indigenous people of the North American territory of the United States of America, while walking through there, because I wasn't thinking I wasn't protecting myself, I wasn't studying my brain off for anybody to come in. And I was walking through one room. And all of a sudden, they started to look at bones that were on display that they had dug up in the Dakotas. And I'm looking at them and thoughts running through my head. That was not anything I ever thought of, I never really tapped into how, oh, wow, we uncovered bones of ancient civilizations of Native Americans. And now we're putting it on display and amused museum. And what they did with those whites, people came in those Europeans came in and tried to annihilate. All these thoughts started to run from my head, that we're not, it's not anything I would come up with. I was trying to enjoy your weekend with my daughter and my husband. And it became very consuming. Oh, I couldn't leave it in that room. As we're walking through the rest of the museum, and there's a spiral staircase, and I'm looking up and I'm thinking, the spiral, these, these people in the United States aren't even looking what they've done. And now they're saying, Oh, we're terrific, because we're putting our bones on display and giving them a museum in all these thoughts. Ram around me. And now we're going into the Air and Space Museum. And my husband is looking like, wow, look at where we went with space. In my head. As we're walking, I became very subdued, they're introverted. And in my head, I'm hearing here, these stupid people, they're trying to go out into space. And all they want to do is annihilate people on this planet not take. I mean, these were thoughts, they were angry. And there was just so much so I'm trying to hold this in. We went back to my daughter's apartment. And the thoughts became consuming, so much so that my identity as mom and wife really was gone. Those angry spirits. I felt like there was Native American and I felt African America because they were talking they made us slaves. And these were the thoughts that consumed me. And then I finally started to share with David because he had seen his daughter rip into this form and have a conversation with him. And he was psychology based, and more who agreed that Yes, David would be somebody that I could start to work with. But I then had to take steps so that I was not free and easy for anybody's instrument at any point that they felt but what in the course of processing through it with Dave The one thing that I aim to own perspective that gives me peace. That experience was a great teacher for me. I never understood the pain. Oh, utter anger. Anger at White Europeans that came over and what they did, until that 24 hour period, we need to find healing with the history, yeah, of the North American continent, and not just the United States or Canada, the entire continent, we need to look at that history of what those early White Europeans or Spanish or however, those people that came over and disrupted the lives of those indigenous cultures. Yeah. And treated them with such respect. And the entire culture, it's not white Americans, but the entire culture of people have human beings need to look at the journey on earth that passed, because those lives with they experience those human beings experienced something traumatic. And there's spirits crossed. And the spirits now look at it as an experience that they had. And there are those that persevered through because there are many Native Americans and African Americans that are still here, their ancestors, their children, and their children are still here. There's the Shinnecock have a book, we are still here? Yeah, we need to acknowledge the behaviors of those in control. And we have to honor there were those that persevere through those traumas, and they are still living, and offer them a hand of love, of compassion, of empathy, and make a vow that we will never let our children make decisions like that. And their children. And let's change the course of our planet, and the course of history by calling this time of a major transition of Let's heal.

Anne DeButte: 37:17

Patty, thank you for sharing that with our listeners, I wanted to bring awareness to your experience, as this topic is so relevant today. I can hear the emotion in your voice, that it was a disturbing an emotional experience for you. And I want to thank you for sharing so authentically, that moment

Patty Furino: 37:40

with us. Thank you for allowing me to share that. And be so honest, thank you. I thank Dave for allowing me to bring it to the book and you for allowing me to share it on your program.

Anne DeButte: 37:55

Thank you. I wish we had more time to talk on this subject. But if people are interested, then they know where they can find more details in your book. After that experience, Patti, I understand that you contacted Dave and you shared it with him. Now they from a psychology perspective, you mentioned that because you knew paddy so well, that if it had been somebody else you may have given the experience, perhaps a psychological label? Yeah, I think

Dave Roberts: 38:34

because in the field of human services, we are so oriented to diagnostic labels for a lot of different reasons. And it's just really easy to get into a trap of seeing individuals or labels but a lot of what happened. And you know, what I was beginning to learn from the experience, I had long island in subsequent conversations with Patty's that everything is is what it appears to be that some sometimes life is illusion posing as truth. And Patty was grounded, she had no history of psychiatric trauma or, or psychiatric breaks or mental health history. And I was very grounded and what I actually saw in a lot of ways, because a lot of ways validated the experience I had with her in Long Island when Janine came through, and I could see that she was channeling and coming from a different place, that she was channeling the injustice of centuries of both the indigenous peoples and the African American peoples and their their people and there was more of a purpose to that. And it was it was authentic, it was real. And it was there. There were inherent messages and that the transcended diagnostic labels and since then, I have learned that essentially to tickle take a look at any type of similar behavior that occurs like that in context. And, you know, and just determine whether In fact, is it something that that needs immediate attention, or professional or is is just another way that individuals manifest spiritual awareness so big? That whole experience got me to rethink how we all look and in the field of human services and diagnostic labels? Yeah.

Anne DeButte: 40:18

So that is probably something you've discussed with your colleagues, have you to sort of get them to expand that perspective before they are quick to put the label on?

Dave Roberts: 40:32

Yeah, I mean, it's more like planting seeds. And it's certainly Yeah, certainly something that I have. I have mentioned that my colleagues and you know, without trying to, you know, to sway their in terms of what they believe or try to shift that it's just just a, here's another way that perhaps we can look at human behavior. And here's how spiritual practices can help us increase helps us understand and give us a further context for understanding the behavior that occurs.

Anne DeButte: 41:00

Yeah. Beautiful. So quite a lot came out of your experience there at that museum Paddy? Yes, quite a bit of learning. Paddy, I understand that you went on to have many discussions with Dave and you, you did a lot of research, which our listeners and your readers can certainly go more in depth when they pick up a copy of your book. But it was a moment of realization for you, I understand that there was a greater purpose in you perhaps becoming a conduit for centuries of injustice and oppression. Oh, my goodness, that really, I could really feel that at a heart level. That was deep. How did that awareness land with you, Paddy?

Patty Furino: 41:51

I still walk with that today, trying to walk with integrity, and responsibly, and not make it a big show. There's so much injustice toward the Native Americans and African Americans, those that have endured and persevered through centuries. I still don't know what I can do to implement change. This book was actually the first step in trying to get it out there. Because otherwise, I one voice, I would always say I'm just one little housewife on the corner of Hunter and whether you're, they aren't going to listen to me. But it was the hope is this book would get in the hands of the right person and recognize it. Yeah.

Anne DeButte: 42:43

Well, I certainly recognize the significance of what you and Dave have been sharing as I went through the Book Day. Finally, what do you want your readers to take away from reading your book, when the professor meets the minister?

Dave Roberts: 43:03

Well, I think a couple of things. One is that is that science and spirituality can can be a very comfortable union, which spiritual practices can account for behavior science may not be able to, it gives us more of a flexible framework for looking at behavior. And I think also creating a creating, you know, greater awareness of our role in the universe. And, you know, with those individuals in the universe, I think it gives us a greater understanding of, of our own our own self awareness, as well as that type of awareness, you know, with the world around us. The other part of it is that for young people who may be misunderstood and misdiagnosed with ADHD, or anxiety, we want our readers to take away that these are, these young individuals may in fact, be be intuitive, more intuitive, they may have more spiritual knowing. And the way that they see the world is not pathological. The way that they see the world is an extension of how they relate to a multi dimensional universe and that needs to be understood. And I think, you know, we can we can all look at what we are book as a way to look at human behavior differently, our role in the universe differently, and realize that there's a wide variety of spiritual practices that are out there to be integrated with our existing core beliefs without having to replace those core beliefs. As you know, Patti and I have mentioned in the book and is, is that it's always in addition to instead of, we can we can expand our awareness without compromising our core beliefs. So that's what we want people to take away from those those various talking points.

Anne DeButte: 44:55

Thank you. I like how you put that because so many people poll, believe that when you start to question those beliefs that when you see a new one that you have to get rid of it to adopt it I like but the two can coexist. So thank you for explaining that. And I guess that's how we start to shift perspective as you Patty helped Dave, do as with within your discussions, look, getting to look at grief a little differently, would you say?

Patty Furino: 45:31

Yes, that's actually what happened. And it wasn't that I was trying to convince him, I was just sharing with him what my experience was, in my private space, never expecting that it would go out, I used to tell him, I feel like Merlin, I quietly go along and help people, you know, with the magic that God brings into to my life, and just secretly walk around, I never wanted people to know. But David convinced me that, and spirit convinced me that it was time that the world was changing. And it really did happen with COVID, with Black Lives Matter with what's been uncovered, you know, underground on this planet. It's all coming out now. So we need to realize as a human race, that

Anne DeButte: 46:19

we have to do better. Yeah. You can't

Patty Furino: 46:23

keep doing the same thing over and over again, we have to see ourselves as spiritual beings, having a human experience that will benefit us on so many levels.

Anne DeButte: 46:35

I hope so for sure. Any final words of wisdom from either of you at this point that you would like our listeners to take away?

Dave Roberts: 46:45

I will just one thing real quickly is that one, we respect what people believe without attempting to judge it or change it, we can lay the groundwork for a world that's based on inclusion of the Natha sense and understanding. And I, I Patti and I have talked about this, we are embarking on a new age right now. And it's, you know, you have all the quarters. We're in the Aquarian Age right now. And that's dollar may take some time, I think those value values will be what will definitely be incorporated. And that's what we want people to take away if you can witness what other people believe without judgment, that sets the groundwork for a more peaceful planet.

Anne DeButte: 47:27

Yeah, rather than thinking, this is what I believe my way is the right way. Be willing to listen, really listen to somebody else's perspective isn't your your, Okay, where can people get your book?

Dave Roberts: 47:48

Well, they can go directly on Amazon, if they Google when the psychology professor met the minister or they Google either my name or Patty's name, that book should come up. And they'll also get an opportunity to look at the numerous positive reviews we've got already from people have read the book, which is which is which has been, you know, gratifying for us, they could go to our website, which is psychology professor and minister.com, there is an about the book section, and there's a link to the Amazon there as well, too. If they're undecided about buying the book, and they want to get a free sample, they can join our mailing list on the homepage, and they can get the first chapter for free if they're undecided. But obviously, we'd love to have everybody just buy the book. We really just believe that it's gonna, it's gonna be beneficial, and it's going to be, I think a life changing for people are going to read it.

Anne DeButte: 48:43

I hope so for sure. And it's my impression of the book for what it's worth, I think it should be in all teachers in the schools. Recommended Reading for for semesters and semesters and semesters, in the hopes that it can help them with the children that they're dealing with for sure.

Dave Roberts: 49:06

There would be very bad you that would be our hope that it does get into academia and it becomes a, you know, staple for a lot of a lot of courses, whether being spiritual awareness, death and dying, you know, religious religion. That's been our that's been our hope that that will manifest

Anne DeButte: 49:24

and it will get into the real religious communities as well. Yeah. Any final words there, Patty.

Patty Furino: 49:32

Just a big heartfelt thank you for allowing me the sacred space to share our experience. Thank you.

Dave Roberts: 49:40

And the same goes for me and thanks. It's always a pleasure connecting with you and thanks again for giving both Patti and I the opportunity to to share or journey share stories and to share her book.

Anne DeButte: 49:52

You're so so welcome. I think we've got to get you back. I've thoroughly enjoyed as you know hearing your experiences and your stories. That's a wrap as I like to say, I do hope you've gained some insights by listening to the to today's episode. And we'll begin to look at grief a little differently as well as spirituality. Please remember you don't have to grieve alone. You can connect with me at at understanding grief.com Until next time, listeners i-man Bye bye for now.