Bold Blind Beauty On A.I.R.

Flipping The Script Part 2: Living Boldly with Visual Impairment

• Bold Blind Beauty • Season 5 • Episode 4

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Episode title and number: Flipping The Script Part 2: Living Boldly with Visual Impairment 5-#4

Summary of the show:
At Bold Blind Beauty On A.I.R., we believe sensitive yet necessary questions about blindness are crucial to breaking barriers, addressing stigma, and eradicating stereotypes, recognizing that each blind person is as unique as anyone else. In this episode, Gabby Mendonca and Jonathan Rubinov return as guest hosts on Bold Blind Beauty On A.I.R., sharing personal blindness experiences with interviewer Andrea (Andy) Chadwick. In advocating for A.I.R. (Access, Inclusion, and Representation™), they discuss daily life, challenges, technology, support, and the need for greater understanding from sighted individuals.

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Bullet points of key topics & timestamps:
00:00 Introduction and Welcome
01:12 Meet the Hosts and Guest
02:07 Funny Moments with Visual Impairment
04:09 Describing Vision to Others
06:53 Inspirational Figures and Role Models
12:47 Useful Apps for the Visually Impaired
17:36 Social Media and Inclusion
23:41 Offering Help to the Visually Impaired
28:24Closing Remarks and Contact Information
28:24 Final Thoughts and Takeaways
31:31 Closing Remarks

Jonathan's Socials: 

Gabby's Socials: 



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Music Credit: "Ambient Uplifting Harmonic Happy" By Panda-x-music https://audiojungle.net/item/ambient-uplifting-harmonic-happy/46309958

Thanks for listening!❤️

 Introduction and Welcome

Steph: Welcome back to another edition of Bold Blind Beauty On A.I.R., the show that's clearing the air for more A.I.R. (Access, Inclusion, and Representation)™. My name is Stephanae McCoy, and with me are my co-hosts. I'm Dana Hinnant, I'm Nasreen Bhutta, and this is Sylvia Stinson-Perez.

Meet the Hosts and Guest

Jonathan: Welcome back, Bold Blind Beauty fans, to another taste of Access, Inclusion, and Representation. My name is Jonathan Rubinov, and today I'm in the hot seat with my co-host Gabriela Mendonca.

Gabby: Everyone. It's really good to be back here with Jonathan talking to Andy again. Once again, we'll be sharing our unique experiences of what it's been like being visually impaired throughout [00:01:00] our lives, as well as sharing our honest viewpoints of living with this disability for many years now.

Jonathan: Thank you, Gabby. I'm really looking forward to get started. First things first, I would love to introduce our lovely, interviewer, Andrea Chadwick, who has a robust background in voice acting, advocating for the blind community, and fostering a collaborative spirit among her peers.

Andy: Hello everyone. I hope all of you are doing well.

I'm back today with some more intriguing and thoughtful questions I have here for both Jonathan and Gabby. So get ready we will continue to talk about the challenges that come with living with Blindness and some strategies that have been proven effective to manage this disability, both in personal and professional life.

Funny Moments with Visual Impairment

So why don't you go first this time, Jonathan? Are you ready? You ready for me, Jonathan?

Jonathan: Sure thing. Let's get this show on a roll.

Andy: Alright, that's awesome. So let's do something.

Here's a question for you. Mm-hmm. And, something funny. Right? Have you had any funny or unexpected moments because of your visual impairment?

Jonathan: Yeah, I definitely have. This is more like of an embarrassing moment, but then, like, I found it funny after. So basically, I was in an Uber, it was like a shared ride with another passenger. And she just randomly started talking. She's like, How are you? What's going on? And I thought she was talking to me because, I don't know, just like the direction of her voice.

I thought she was like greeting me. So I'm like, good, good. What's up? How are you? And she's like my day was good. What are you doing? I'm like, oh, I'm just, I'm just gonna school right now. And then like I realized that she was actually talking on the phone and not me. And then I got super embarrassed.

But then we kind of laughed about it after her phone conversation, and then we laughed about it. It was funny.

Andy: Aw, yeah. Aw, that's, well, that's definitely funny, right? Mm-hmm. We can always giggle at different situations.

How about you, Gabby?

Gabby: I feel like I definitely have some funny moments. I feel like one of the, the funniest moments I probably have is, to do with, like, when I was back in college, it was, it first started out as like an embarrassing moment, but one of my friends came over to give me a hug and I didn't know that he had a cup of coffee in his other hand.

And so it was like one of those like awkward, one-armed side hugs. And so I, I love hugs, so I was like, oh, gimme a hug. And I'd literally like hugged my friend, and I knocked his entire cup of coffee out of his hand, and it fell to the floor. And I was like, oh my God, I'm so sorry, like, you know, and, and then I felt bad the entire day, but we were able to laugh at it.

I was like, Can I give you the money to go pay for another one? He is like, no, no, it's, it's okay. So yeah, I would say that was like a mixture of the two.

Andy: Well, at least the coffee didn't get on you both. At least it fell to the floor. So that's a good thing, right? Yeah.

Describing Vision to Others

So how do you guys describe your vision to other kids?

Gabby, you can take this one first.

Gabby: So I would say, the way that I describe it is that essentially I don't have any light or shadow perception. And what that means is that I can't see anything. But when someone is blind and they don't have light or shadow perception, it can be like they won't be able to see people's faces or even like the outline, like a profile of of a person.

And the way I try to describe it is that essentially I say I see nothing, but at the same time, you know, there's always the question of, so when I close my eyes and I say, I see nothing, is that the same thing? And I'm like, well, I, I don't really know. 'cause that's a very different experience, you know?

But I always try to educate on my specific eye condition, which is optic atrophy, and that affects the optic nerve. That's good 'cause I know that's a question that everybody has, right? Mm-hmm. Those that can see. And if they try and envision what your experience is I know that's a common question for sighted individuals. 

Andy: How about you, Jonathan?

Jonathan: Honestly, the way I would describe it to kids is that I basically have hand motion acuity vision, which means like I can see like whenever someone like shakes their hand in front of me, I can see that I have light perception, I have color perception. Like basically I, I cannot read text on my iPad, for example, but I could see like the colors. Mm-hmm. For example, like in the Messages app, like I could see the blue bubbles. Wow. Like text messages. I can't see, you know, what's written in the messages, but I can see like those, those, those bubbles.

So it's really, honestly, it's really not a lot to work with, but like I'm still trying to preserve the small amount of sight I have left. But it's not, it's not more, it's not much more than just light shadow. Yeah. Color, light and motion. That's it.

Andy: Okay. That's good to know. And I, again, it's that whole thought process, right? Blindness is a spectrum. So everybody has a different experience. They can see differently. So these are the conversations that we need to have, right? So we can understand. So I appreciate that. Thank you, thank you both for that. So
I am going to ask you something interesting. 

Inspirational Figures and Role Models

Is there a superhero character or person you really look up to, and why?

Oh, it's a good one, right? So let's, let's think about it. And when you're ready, let me know who wants to answer first.

Gabby: I can go 

Andy: Okay, go ahead, Gabby. 

Gabby: This is gonna sound so cliche, but probably like in a very, if we're just thinking like, you know, not like realistically specifically focused probably DareDevil. I feel like when I was in college, there was a point in time where I was actually called DareDevil, like so much because I knew how to navigate that campus so well, and I would be assisting sighted students to find offices that they couldn't find.

Andy: You go, Gabby,

Gabby: And like, you know, the faculty would always crack up because like, I would be in an office specifically like the accommodations office, and I was really cool with the first you know, director that we had and students would come into her office and be like, oh, I'm trying to find the register's office, or I'm trying to go here. And, you know, if she's busy, she can't like walk away. And so she'd be like, okay, you have to go here and turn down this hall. And then they would be like, oh, okay. And I would be like, it, it's fine. I'd be like, I'll take you, I'll take you, and I would take them.

Then even there was a point in time where like. I don't know, people would try to walk up to me and be like, Hi. And I'm like, hi, so and so, like, you know, if it was you, Andy, and you came up and you like maybe thought I didn't know that it was you, I would still know. And so people would be like, you really are like Daredevil.

So I would say, like, if we're just joking, I would say that definitely Daredevil. I think he's like super cool.

Andy:  Oh no, that's not a joke, it's wonderful. I love that about you, and I see that you're in New York. Mm-hmm. So you're definitely a DareDevil, that's my opinion. But anyway, you are wonderful. I appreciate that answer. How about you, Jonathan?

Jonathan: Honestly, if I can name a person on top of my head, it would be Tim Cook, the CEO of Apple.

Andy: Oh, okay.

Jonathan: Because honestly, like if you just take, if you take a moment and just kind of like think about like the, the impact he had on like technology and, and, and, you know, shaping how the world communicates.

Yeah. Like what he has been doing since, you know, the death of Steve Jobs. Yeah, it's incredible. Like like I follow Apple very closely, you know, what he has done to the iPhone, how it changed, you know, so many times. And just how he made Apple, you know, the most successful company in the world.

Yeah. And just, it's just an incredible story that I don't think any other CEO can do. Yeah. Also, he also takes accessibility very seriously.

Gabby: Yeah.

Jonathan: And he makes, he definitely prioritizes, you know, making all his product lines accessible from, you know, iPhones, Macs, Apple watches. One of the, you know, biggest reasons people love Apple is because they care about all their consumers, you know?

Yep. Mm-hmm. Ranging, ranging from, you know, if they're, if they're, you know, disabled or if, like, if they're also like financially disadvantaged, they also have budget products for every single, like, product line. Yeah. Like if you, if you wanna buy a cheap iPad, they have that, like if you, if they, if if you wanna buy an iPhone that's under $600, they have that.

Like they have, they serve so many different demographics of people. That's what I'm trying to say. And Tim Cook is definitely the head of what Apple has been able to do successfully over the last decade.

Andy: Yeah, I think you just did a great advertisement for Apple. Mm-hmm. Because it was certainly, I didn't even know, so I actually appreciate that one.

Yeah. On, I'm sorry, hold on. Go ahead Gabby.

Gabby: Have to, did you wanna say something? I'm sorry.

Andy: No, no, you are, you are [00:11:00] good. Okay. You, you're good.

Gabby: I just, I feel like you're, you're definitely right. I feel like Tim Cook has done a really good job with just like how Apple has become one of the biggest companies that is really focused on accessibility. So if I were to pick a real-life person, I would probably say him too. But like fictional characters, I, I would say DareDevil., But no, I think Tim Cook, like, think back to many years ago, I mean, I can only imagine it was really hard for people like us who are blind and visually impaired to live in a world where they felt that they were properly supported.

And I feel like Apple has done a really good job, especially now that technology continues to grow and become better. Making sure that each person with a disability has some sort of feature on their iPhone or their iPad or their computer, so that they can, you know, navigate and have a smooth workflow. And so I would say yeah, definitely. I agree with you, Jonathan.

Jonathan: Yeah, and everything that they've done for developers, the opportunities they gave them, the type of apps that developers can create. Apple has given them a platform to create anything that they want and, you know, to share it among millions of iPhone users, you know, changing their lives in the process. I can name so many apps that

Gabby: mm-hmm.

Jonathan: Just made a huge impact on, making my life more productive. And Apple's platform of, you know, billions of devices has allowed us to use those apps and share our experiences with, you know, different Apple users.

Yeah. So that's awesome. No other company could do this. Yeah,

Useful Apps for the Visually Impaired

Andy: Yeah. Can you, or do you mind sharing some of those apps that you use that have helped you navigate throughout your day?

Jonathan: For sure. So one app that I started using is called Be My Eyes, it is essentially an app where a visually impaired person can call a sighted volunteer. Yeah, it's like a video call, right? Yeah. And then it's, you can basically use your iPhone camera to help you locate something that you lost or just to help you like navigate a certain scene. So, for example, if I make a call, a volunteer will pick up and I can ask them, Hey, I dropped my AirPods on the floor, can you help me find them?

And you can scan your phone around the room. And then once they see the AirPods on the floor through your camera, they can let you know, and they can help you just find stuff around your room, for example. That's one use case of it. Wow. Other use cases include reading a sign in the distance, helping to identify like colors of clothing if you're colorblind, mm-hmm. Helping you also navigate like street crossings if you're in a very high-risk emergency situation, you have no one else to ask, and then that's definitely a use case it could be helpful for.

Andy: Wow. And that's only on Apple?

Jonathan: That's also on Android. Yeah.

Andy: Okay. The reason why I, I, you know, I'm like, Hey, can you talk about what resources you are using? Because you never know, somebody could be listening to this and have no idea what's available to them. Yeah. So I, I think this is a good conversation to have. You know what I mean? Yes. Mm-hmm.

Jonathan: Mm-hmm. For sure.

Andy: Absolutely. How about you, Gabby? What is something that you are using that you know, you think everybody should know about?

Gabby: So, I'm also a huge user of Be My Eyes. I use them all the time. And actually, if you have the Meta Ray-Ban glasses, you can connect the Be My Eyes app to the Meta Ray-Ban glasses. And then instead of having to take out your phone to say, Hey, could you read me the instructions on this box, or could you help me find this? They will be able to see from your glasses camera, which is a really cool feature.

And then for me, I love the app, PiccyBot. I think it's a really cool app. So I use that a lot for the purposes of posting to social media or just for like my own, you know, camera roll to save photos and videos. But PiccyBot is so funny because it feels like just one of those friends that you can call up who likes to describe things to you in the funniest yet loving ways. It, like, it'll give you full alt text and then you can do like, follow-up questions to ask it. So, for instance, if I have a video and I wanna share that to TikTok or Instagram, once it's finished describing what's in the video, I'll say, okay, can you tell me, is this video good quality? Is it good to post it? And sometimes it'll say, oh, you know, maybe this could be tweaked a bit,  but it's a really useful tool.

And then, two other apps that I really like is one is called One Step Reader. It's formerly known as the KNFB reader. I especially used that a lot when I was in college, but that's really good for converting PDFs to plain text if you're having a hard time with them it's, it's good for that purpose. You can save the files to your phone or your iPad. You can take a picture of a document or a sign and it'll, you know, describe it to you. So it has a couple of cool features.

And the last one is Voice Dream Reader. Mm-hmm. That one you can read books through, so you can actually, like, Bookshare is a big, you know, company that has books listed and available to and for blind people and people with other disabilities. But in that app, you can also, like if you download a PDF too, you can even open it in there. Usually, when I watch certain shows that I get from other platforms that like, let's say, Netflix doesn't have a show with audio description, but I go to a website like the Audio Vault and I download it, I can open it and a voice stream reader and play it in there. So it has a couple of cool functions.

Andy: Oh my gosh, that's very cool. I did not know any of that. That's awesome, Guys. Maybe we should do this every month, update on what's out there. That's brilliant. Mm-hmm. 

Social Media and Inclusion

So you kind of touched on social media, and I'm gonna pivot to social media. So I have a question about some recent activity that I'm seeing out there. This is to both of you. So what do you want the sighted community to know about social media? And how can we include everyone in posts, and also what annoys you about social media the most?

Gabby: Oh, yeah. Jonathan, do you wanna go or?

Jonathan: Sure. Okay. I think social media serves a very important purpose, right? Like I would personally share different unique experiences that I want other people to view, right? Like I would have someone recording me, you know, on the ice field during a blind hockey game, and just to see how we play. Just for pe Yeah for people to be familiar with this type of adaptive sport. Yeah. That they can view because I feel like many people, unfortunately, believe that blind people don't have many options, you know, for entertainment. Yeah. But I just wanna show them that like, we're just capable as someone, as sighted people and participating in society and making a meaningful difference, in our communities.

Just like like if I can have a video online of me playing, you know, blind baseball or blind hockey on Instagram, I think that will really educate a large amount of people that blind people can also participate in real sports and become active members in a way that's really powerful, right?

Andy: Yeah.

Jonathan: For us players and for the coaches to view like that their sports getting recognition online, it would really make people take blind people more seriously and play sports and be involved in different community activities. It's a very powerful thing for us to show it on social media.

Andy: I love that. I love that. Thank you for that answer. How about you, Gabby?

Gabby: Yeah, so what I would want people to know is that as blind people, we want to, and we also deserve to be included on social media. And I feel like this also ties into, like, what annoys me about social media. Because oftentimes people will say, like, you know, I don't have blind people that are following my page, so why does it matter if I put alt text in my photos? Or why does it matter if I try to use audio descriptions to describe a video? You know, things that we rely on that really do help us when we're on social media. 

And this is what I always try to say to people when they think that there are blind people who aren't following them. It's like, just because that isn't the case right now, that doesn't mean that it never will be the case. And you also don't know that that person is blind. There could be a blind person following you, but they're not gonna put it in their bio where it's not gonna be as obvious as you think it might be. And so I think all-around inclusion is really important. And I think what annoys me the most, as someone who is on social media so much, is the fact that no matter how many of us try our hardest to educate and put out the right things, some people just do not want to make their content inclusive or accessible.

And because of that, it kind of like limits us as blind people from accessing social media the way that sighted people can. Because to certain sighted people, it doesn't matter if this post has alt text. To them, they think if I put all text in my photo, then a sighted person's gonna see that, and it's like, no, that's not the case. And even if they do, then, you know, that's okay. Like that, that shouldn't be an issue. 

But again, what Jonathan said, I think for us to share things that we're doing, like when I do tandem cycling or I'm traveling or, you know, I'm trying out new pieces of technology like it, it has given so many people and I, and I hope that it continues to show other blind people and other sighted people like, hey okay. I don't have to be close-minded to this community because people are actually genuinely trying to educate us, and we just haven't been paying attention enough to really listen. 

I think that's why it's so great when we have allies. For instance, Roy Samuelson is a huge ally for the blind community. Yes. He's, you know, he's, yeah, he's an audio description. I know you are, too, Andy, which is like, so amazing. And so yeah, I would just say that like, keep an open mind. Try your best to make your content as accessible and, and as inclusive as you possibly can. And if you're having a hard time figuring out what that looks like, don't be afraid to do the research and find, you can find so many amazing creators that are blind and disabled on social media that would be more than happy to make a video about it.

Andy: Oh, I love this. I love the answers. For me, I just think this is one of the important conversations that we have to have. Right? Yeah. And I know sometimes we have to repeat ourselves 'cause I'm gonna be honest, there are sometimes I totally forget. I think it's added, and then I go back and it's not added. So, you know, forgive me everybody, 'cause I'm just putting out No, 

I do think it's important for us to have the conversation, and we have to keep repeating it. And that's just how we start to learn, and that's how we start incorporating it.

And you know mm-hmm. We just have to keep saying it. We just have to keep having these conversations because you, you guys know I, I'm seeing the conversations out there. I'm not one to look at the posts' responses often, but some of the responses that I'm seeing, I just know we need to have that education piece. So I appreciate both of you for saying that a hundred percent. So with that being said, I have another question for you. 

Offering Help to the Visually Impaired

How do you prefer people to offer, offer you help if anybody wants to help you? Yeah. In unfamiliar situations, what do you prefer? If I came up to you, what would you prefer when somebody asks, Hey, how can I help you? Yeah. Gabby, do you wanna take that? Sure.

Gabby: If somebody wanted to help me, I think it would depend on the context, but just generally speaking, I would say I really appreciate that you want to help me. I'm really grateful for that because it's not often that option. In certain situations, if I'm outside and I'm doing independent travel, there have been moments where people will literally walk past me and not turn around to say, Hey, can I help you with something? Or are you trying to find a place to go? Or whatever the case might be. So if that's the case, then I would be really grateful. I mean, if I can tell a quick story, if that's okay.

Andy: Absolutely.

Gabby: One time I had a doctor's appointment and I was going to find a deli to grab something to drink. And I was walking down the block, and I didn't know that the deli was across the street from the doctor's office 'cause they said it was on the corner. And this lovely woman came up to me and she's like, "Hi, are you trying to go somewhere?" And I was like, yes, actually, I'm just going to the deli, and she told me it was across the street. And I was like, oh, okay. And she's like, "Do you want me to walk you over?" And I was like, yes, please, if you wouldn't mind. So she walks me over and we're talking and we get there and I'm thinking she's gonna be like: 'okay, great, have a good day.' You know? Because some people would just walk away, but she stayed with me while I got something to drink. And she was like, "Are you walking back across to the doctor's office?" I was like, yes, you really didn't have, you know, because that was really sweet of her. And, again, that just goes back to there are really kind people out there.

Andy: There are wonderful people out there. You're absolutely correct. Mm-hmm.

Gabby: The fact that she stood there with me for, you know, like five minutes. I mean, she could have been walking back across the street to her doctor's appointment within those five minutes, but she stood there, we spoke, and I was like, You're really sweet for like helping me. Most people would've walked away by now. She's like, "That's how some people are." But the moment when you do find people that are kind and helpful, I think that like really shows you that, you know, not everyone is going to turn away and not everyone will walk away, people will, and they do see you. And so that's,

Andy: Yeah. Oh, that's beautiful. Thank you for sharing that. Mm-hmm. How about you, Jonathan?

Jonathan: I think I ultimately prefer people helping me whenever they see me struggle. For example, there are plenty of times where like I'm trying to go after class at my college, to head to the main gate, right? 'cause the main gate is where you leave, it's the exit. Yeah. Yeah. I cannot find it, and I feel like a lot of people can see me going in circles back and forth. Just, just kind of like stumbling where to go. Yeah. And I feel like it's really obvious that I need help. And some people would just kind of just ignore it and walk by. I know I can ask them myself, but sometimes I'm a little bit shy, or sometimes I just have so much anxiety at that moment that I'm just too nervous to ask someone.

So I wish people, like whenever they have a definite thought that I need help. I wish they could just offer some assistance or ask, "Hey, do you need help?" This also can apply whenever I'm at a restaurant sitting with some relatives and I'm clearly struggling to put some salad on my plate. It's really like, I wish someone could just ask, "Hey, do you need help with this?" I'm like, yes, please, that would be great. But sometimes, I don't know. I think most people that I met obviously want to help me. Right. Everyone's here to help and just make a difference, but like, I feel like some people just need to be more assertive.

Andy: Yeah. I think what that is, is that there are a lot of people in this world who're apprehensive, right? They're scared to help even though in their heart they want to. Or it's that situation where they think somebody else is gonna do it. So I, I get that. I understand that.

Thank you for sharing that. And everybody, if you see somebody, help. That's it. Yeah. If they don't need it, they'll say, No, thank you. But like I said, this is the time where we have to have these conversations, right?

Yeah, that's the moral of this story. And so my last question to wind this down. 

Final Thoughts and Takeaways

What do you want everyone to understand and take away from this podcast today?

Let's go with Gabby.

Gabby: I think I really want everyone to take away from this podcast kindness, openness, respect, you know, understanding, and knowing that we are people too. We deserve to have friends and be in relationships and live our lives, have jobs, go to school, and do every single thing that an able-bodied person can do.

So having a specific mindset about the blind community puts us in a box and limits us. And so if you can take away from this podcast the understanding of being open to learning something new. It's not always about benefiting the other person, but it sometimes is about benefiting yourself. Because you're learning something new about people that you may not have met before or have not spoken to before, or you just don't know the right things to say or to do.

And I would just say we like to have fun too, you know, like we go out, we do stuff. We are normal people. We just have to adapt our lifestyles to make it accessible for us. But that doesn't mean that we can't live a successful and thriving life with good people and doing the things that we love to do.

So yeah, we like to laugh too. So take all of that away from the podcast.

Andy: How about you, Jonathan?

Jonathan: My ultimate piece of advice is like, there's always a way. Like if you have a goal that you wanna accomplish, if you wanna be successful, if you happen to be blind, like we live in an age where there are thankfully so many different opportunities that we can take to accomplish what we want. From getting you know, the degree that you want, or becoming a millionaire, it's just up to you. It's all about the people you surround yourself with. It's about the connections you make. It's about how you're taking care of your health, that is also very important.

And of course, everyone should be helpful, compassionate,and  understanding to each other. But even if you meet, you know, people that disrespect you or despise you, you should always be inspired to keep going forward because you'll never know who you will meet next, or what kind of opportunities you will encounter in the future.

So even if you're on a bumpy road, you know, keep going, keep crossing it. There's always light at the end of the tunnel, and giving up is just the worst. I can't imagine where I would be right now if I had just not finished college.

Andy: You guys, that was awesome. Both of you are my hearts, and you mean the world to me. But what both of you just said there, this is my wish that everybody understands and can take away from this podcast with a little bit of clarity, right? So with that being said, we've come to the end of the questions.

Gabby: Okay. Well, that's all for today, everyone. We really hope you enjoyed this segment of bold blind beauty on air. It was really great co-hosting with you again, Jonathan.

Jonathan: Thank you, Gabby. This was a really wonderful experience to be a part of. I, I also. Really want to thank Andy for being such an incredible host, as always.

Andy: Oh, bless. It's always a pleasure recording with you guys. I really appreciate you having me on today. Cheers.

Closing Remarks

Gabby: And remember, our conversation doesn't end here, so remember to subscribe so you don't miss out on future episodes with our regular hosts and more incredible guests.

Jonathan: And for more behind-the-scenes content, personal stories, and daily doses of empowerment, be sure to follow the Bold Blind Beauty community on Instagram.

Gabby: Your support truly means the world to us as we continue to amplify diverse voices and share powerful stories. Let's keep advocating together for Access, Inclusion, and Representation.

Jonathan: Until next time, stay Bold and Beautiful.




People on this episode

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Nasreen Bhutta

Co-host
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Stephanae (Steph) McCoy

Co-host
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Sylvia Stinson-Perez

Co-host