Welcome to Beyond Trà Đá
And the topic today is relationships.
So you know, navigating through relationships is difficult, especially if we don’t have any lessons about it. We went to school to study mathematics, literature, biology to prepare ourselves for life. But for relationships, we are supposed to just know it, but no one taught us how to have good relationships with our friends, our family, our future partner and even ourselves. Even though happy relationships define happy life, we are expected to just know it instinctively. And you know I heard so many times of learning by making mistakes. But to be honest a lot of mistakes that can be very well avoided. So, I wish someone was there when I was much younger to tell me these things, to prepare me for the fact that the relationship is hard and hard work. And you know, you can do better by learning actually just like everything else. However relationship is a very very hot topic so today we just focus on one small aspect of relationships: Why are we attracted to certain types of people? Why are we attracted to the person that we attracted to?
And for this topic, our guest today is Phillip, he has been my mentor in the last few weeks about emotional maturity and self-love and relationship. Philips besides being a project management at investment firm, Philip is the chairman of Chance to grow, a Germany based NGO to support children in Vietnam. He has been practicing mindfulness and mediation for the last 3 years with a teacher who was from Plum Village France.
We both are not psychologists. Whatever that we discuss here it’s just our personal experience.
Ok, I’ll just jump right in.Hello Phillip, thank you for being here with us and share with us your storyAnd how are you today?Thank you very much. For me it's a pleasure to be here with you and I feel excited and very fine to also Xin chao to the Vietnamese, I think I pronounced that wrongly but maybe one of the humor that i learned. Actually, you sound perfect. So, because we only have like 30 minutes so I will just jump right in the first questions. How important are relationships for you.
So, basically, as I said, right off the bat, for every child that really longs for companionship, to be with someone through all our life. And I never wrote about the child's natural longing to understand the structure of poetry or deeper physics that comes later with education, and with interests, but the topic of relationship is so vital for our survival and how to, how to make us human. And how to grow, and we mostly learn from home, we learn from the parents, we learn from the people around us, but very often they are also unconscious of themselves and of the relationship they are in. So, in my understanding, it's really a big gap in our system that nobody teaches us about relationships in a systematic and in a loving and good way. So, yes. For me, relationships are vital and some of the most advanced groanings I have in my life, and also some of the intense suffering. I had been, and definitely. I think it's, it starts with how we perceive ourselves. So let me make an example, when you go in the morning to the bathroom and you look into the mirror, which I guess most people have. Then you can already observe yourself and see how do you perceive yourself to criticize yourself because of the laugh angles or because of wrinkles and say to yourself I must be better I must do sport I must eat more healthy, or do you look to yourself, loving and kind and compassionate, and then still you can push yourself to improve. And so how we see ourselves. That is how we see our partner in this relationship and how we see other people. And let me say that this is the fundamental difference in relationships. If we go into a relationship to share or sell from loving from fulfillment. Or, because we have needs, because we want something from the other and because we want to be happy and then we try, you know, you know it. We tried to be happy by the other end that can never work.
Huyen: Yeah. So, actually, thank you for bringing in the question because yeah it's kind of like a silly question, the support relationship is important to everyone. So, thank you for taking it a little bit further. So looking but looking back to all your relationships, which one was the most memorable one for you. The one that you think she was the one you know we all have moments where we think, Oh, she is the one, you know, and from what you just share, of course, we all have those very happy moments also suffering moments where you say. So, whatever it is, What was yours like what's popping in your head.
Phillip: So, one of the women I met online actually. She is Vietnamese and. Well, it was the most intense relationship I’ve ever had in my life. I don't say it was the best, but it was the one with the most dramatic situation where my heart was higher, where I acted out of my normal patterns, like for example I, I did quit my job, I gave up my flat, I was ready to move to Vietnam and I still can remember me saying at the airport calling my grandma Oh by the way, grandma. I’m going to meet a woman and I don't know for how long.Huyen: Well I never saw this side of you.Phillip: YeahHuyen: Okay. Yes, then it was what I did, but I know.Phillip: Also, it was because I acted from very very deep patterns inside me, I was not conscious of, and she wasn't conscious of hers as well. And so everything blew up later in a big drama. Nevertheless, it was a tremendous learning experience. Yeah.Huyen: So, yeah, so you say it was very very intense. And why were you attracted to her and what made it so intense, what was, you know, the elements if you can break it down. You know we all say, you know, compatibility but exactly what is it, you know. So, from your stories. Can you break in certain, you know,Phillip: yeah, yeah, yeah I thought about it a lot, I thought about okay what was that Why was I so entangled. And, and what made me think and feel like this, and I cannot say it was the hair or how soft the hand was. But I mean, smell is so important. It's vital by the way that all the things you can mention smell is one of the most important things. Of all the decades of relationship. There are many old couples out now. But what really wasn't is really we were sewing to each other. So, it clicked for much, because our inside belief sentences, our patterns how we perceive ourselves, were so near to each other. because we had different experiences as a child, but the result in the US was so similar. This is why we understood each other so well. And so we have the feeling of finally somebody who really understands me, which was not really the case because we did not add up then our help. But yeah, it was like this, and I can say it was kind of destiny, because we were brought together again, again, again, because there was still something to learn and when it ended. Yes, it was traumatic. It was the most intense time of suffering. I had a relationship at the time, but it brought me more to look and find to be, you know, become a little bit mindful.
Huyen: Okay, interesting because you mentioned that you were very similar and that's why you were attracted to each other. But I often heard you know the opposite actually that differences and tracks. So...
Phillip: I mean that's the tricky thing we always ask people about famous themes that attracts or is the opposite. And the answer is, yes, there must be a fundamental base that is close to each other so that we can understand each other because the person is totally different. You could not communicate. You could not understand what the other means, even though describing really the same fruit in front of you. So this has to be as close as possible so that the magnetism is there. And so that the learning can be there because we always mirror each other. So, that we learn mirroring is basically the reason for a deeper sense. And, the opposite is because we search in the other wanting to have more like security. Like, like, energy, like courage, we wish to have more and so we are attracted. But the tricky thing is, we have it in us, because if we would not have it in us already. Then we could not feel what we missed to have right; we can only miss something you know. So, the thing is, we have an all in us. We only seek to say this word, but it is also for me, very often the case was the case, we seek to use the other key to unlock our quality control from your mind, but it's like many many relationships.
Huyen: Very interesting. So, I often hear that, you know, everyone has a type. So, do you have a type and, you know, do you think there's a reason why we have a type, and what actually shaped this type because from my personal experience I also know I have the type, not particularly, you know, look wise but characterising and you know certain kinds of things in a person that I definitely want to have in a partner. So what about you
Phillip: the right point where I want to ask My women type is probably a woman. No Okay so what is it for me. My papa has to be at my level. I need to respect my partner as equal. And I think it was very important to share. Basically similar values. Developing a vision of life where we want to go to having understanding self reflection is very very important and new. I love to cuddle and I love to be. That's one of my needs. And yes sexual attraction is very important. I'm not a monk. And, and this bodily aspect is very, very important to keep the relationship interesting over time. And a major point for me honestly is humor, because my partner really can really look like a supermodel, but I made the experience that when I talk with someone who really looks interesting, who really looks great actually like a nine out of 10 or 10 out of 10, and. And then there is not that that inspiration that humans are also. It's boring. It does not work for more than a day and humor is for me like a wild mash up of creativity and intelligence, kicking off and bringing you and self reflection. So, yeah, humor is really important. And the second part of the question. I think we are. It is known right that we are mainly driven by what we see at home. So we seek to very often act out again what we learned at home: How is Mom, how’s dad, how our partner’s what is society saying, or. Also, the case, we act and the total, total opposite like 100% opposite as an act of rebellion. So, this is what very often shapes ourselves in between these extremes of copying or opposite of copying, that there is a question of, like, really true love was somebody teach us or somebody told us, like what really, we want to have in our life and that is something we can only find out by experience.
Huyen: Interesting. You mentioned a few things about shaping our type for the main thing you mentioned is home right how we experience at home and a lot of this I can't agree because a lot of actually sometimes it's also unconscious and we don't even realize that, but, yes. And also, like, what do you mean by society because for example I'm from Vietnam and I know that, especially women Vietnamese women are under huge pressure about you know getting married and have kids and sometimes people get married for the wrong reasons you know it's not about love compatibility just okay it's tough to get married so you get married. And so for me that's the social pressure of the society part but you live in Germany where I would think that don't really exist so can you share more about this part. What exactly do you mean by this?
Phillip: Sure. Also in Germany, we have, like, societal patterns, which are brought upon our children like how you should act, how you should be and also how women should be our men should be like men. For example, this is very understandable. Take yourself Take yourself back. Like, find a solution by words and so on. Women are also expected in certain ways to be a woman and that can change from wherever you are born and for example I come from Eastern Germany from GDR and there. The system was more family oriented, I would say. Then, in some parts of that time. So it varies from family to family as well. So are you taught at home that for example, a girl could be more silent, or a girl should always fight to be to have her position in the world, and never give in, never get back. That depends on where you grow up and, again, it is very much of what you, what you see at home but as you said it is subconscious patterns that think in very deep and to become aware of them can help us to understand what we really want because maybe, maybe, just maybe, as a woman. You don't want to make real all your life at all costs of your free time, family and everything else. Maybe you want a family with children, or you maybe want both or as a man maybe you will want to be the successful lawyer your dad always taught you to be. Maybe you want to become a dad and care for the children at home and support you, your wife to become whatever she strives to become, maybe that is your case. So, this is what I mean by, find out what is yours, and not what someone else, teach you.
Huyen: Yeah, that I totally agree. And I want to come back to the point you said earlier about your relationship you had with a Vietnamese woman, she's decided that one of the woods is suffering time of all of your relationship. So, do you think that, actually. She was in a way not good for you. Would you say that, or no.
Phillip: Well, I will definitely not be good for both of us. I'm not conscious of my attendance. And, you know, it wasn't like super intense pleasantness happiness and suffering and after that breakup and suffering came in and it was terrible. It was the reason for many things, but yeah, it was from both sides. But also, definitely learning.
Huyen: Yes, that's what I believe as well, like the two people it takes two people to make or break a relationship I don't believe in just completely 100% someone's fault I also don't believe that one of one person can make the relationship work. So, there's so you know I see this among my friends. And, you know, sometimes we're attracted to the wrong type of people, if we are attracted to people that we know and not good for us, for example in my. I saw that with my best friends, and also at some point I was attracted to someone who was not good for me. So, I mean, is there a way to stop this.
Phillip: So, no we cannot buy we'll just and attraction. Unless you are well trained in whatever way. But you have to taste your hair, your attraction, your, you have your entanglements. So, the first we must understand is, sometimes the wrong person. It's the right person to show us something, because in most cases, if I can only speak from my experience. When we don't like someone else. We don't like an element in that other person of the whole person and element, and that element we don't like an ass. That's very often the case. So the first thing you must do if you really want to, like, like, get out of that entanglement and become free, that is essentially what you asked for right, is to become conscious of ourselves. What kind of attraction is it really, and what is behind that, for example, we can ask if we are very attracted and always think of the person. Why is it because maybe the other person has something we want and ask what kind of laugh, is that it's always a love language right because it means it is understanding. Is it a kind of security we feel, whatever it is, and then when we understand what it really is that we want from the other that we cannot get free yet. Then, we can try to be with it. Just be with it. Don't act from it just be with it. And if we can do that. It already transforms what our system learns again can do with it. And I don't die. And then it gets more.
Huyen: So that's a very interesting point. So basically, you know. So, love suppose the beach is about feelings But actually, sometimes it is important to use your head to hear your to use your logic in your case, in the case you just mentioned is that we need to be aware of ourselves. And then, when we are aware of South and we can see the patterns, and we can analyze, maybe some from hopeless romantic people will not like this one because I myself was a hopeless romantic and I hate that word in love in relationship, analyze, but if we have to analyze, like the hypothesis, why we're attracted to that person, and, you know, and that's a very very good point and that's the first step. And so maybe going to something lighter. Do you believe in love at first sight, because you know I heard this so many times. And actually, for me personally, I don't know, I used to believe in love at first sight. Definitely there's some strong indication, like chemistry, but I don't know if it's, like, love, or maybe just initial attraction. But then I also heard a lot of love stories and love and foresight happen so what do you think,
Phillip: I believe, at attraction. At first sight. So, we can be attracted to someone, and it can feel like, oh my heart is melting but I only see you drinking something, I get when I see you biting an apple I get crazy or Wow, that is, of course, that. Yeah, it is reality for you at that moment. But again, again, you, you mentioned the mind. If you look at that. Then you can ask, what kind of love is that again. Right. So yeah, it happens that people meet. And then for click, and these people kind of belong to each other at least for that moment and sometimes for a lifetime. But when it is for lifetime. Then it rarely is. I would say it never is the same feeling over all of that time, because statistically after a month you fall out of this dopamine and oxytocin induced feeling of life, then real reality hits you, and then you don't like the other findings, the fallout. So, if then, if the results of the relationship or result of commitment and work you put into that.
Huyen: Yes. Yeah, I guess, you know the older we get, also, the more we age, the less the more realistic we become, I guess. So the next question. I like Phillip: I like romance, you know. Don’t take it away, it’s really important.
Huyen: Of course. So my question is actually an important kind of big question from your experience because I know that you, you know, you went through three years of kind of fighting yourself after your heartbreak and... So, when you taught me a lot in the last few months about, you know, relationships and self love and all those kinds of important topics. So I think this is an important question based on your experience. And what you have come to learn in the last three years about relationships, what do you think are most important in a relationship, in a sense, what makes a relationship. What kind of new kind of factors can make a relationship last?
Phillip: So, food. Can you cook? No Okay. So, what is really, really important long term. Yes, I went through some things actually and I have a feeling I just started to learn but I want to share a little bit of whatever it is to first know yourself as much as you can. because the better you know yourself in many aspects, the better you understand the other.
And then, be present. Because if you only look at the other like how you met him or her in the past, you’ll see the picture of the past, not the present. But everything changed. The other changed. You change everyday. Also, the circumstances changed. There are these three things and they are interconnected.And if you are living in the past, in your expectations how your partner should be to please you, for example, then there’s a widening gap between what you expect and the reality as it is. And this gap, you can name suffering. And that’s where we call too many dramas. So, be in the present moments , look to yourself and look to the other always how it is to be.
And then, be honest about your needs. You have needs and articulate them. Find ways how you can give it to yourself and also how you can interact with your partner. Not in a way of trade. That’s a trade, not a love.
In a way of saying, hey I want to be cuddled, you know. I have a feeling today. And the others too, can decide freely. Not from a feeling of guilt, but from a feeling of love and sharing: “Do I want to give you that?” And then, you have to… I think it’s important to have a relationship based standing on a similar bag of values. Mostly, honesty. And develop a mutual vision of where you want to go. You want to live in a forest in 2 years in a little tiny house, I want to live in a town with a lot of friends around me. Well, then we have a lot to discuss, right?So it is important,And then give each other the same time to talk, so the other can grow and develop the best version of him or herself, but also freedom and trust.And I think one last question is, you can ask yourself, always, and I try to do it as much as I can:Do I think and feel and act from love or from fear? We’re really acting from ourselves? Or do I act because I fear to be not loved anymore? or lose you? or to be rejected? Very very important (30:01)