Factors influencing successful careers (English audio)

Tập này chúng tớ thu âm bằng Tiếng Anh, các bạn có thể vào kênh Youtube của bọn mình để xem phụ đề tiếng Việt nhé.
In this episode, Huyen Le will have a conversation with Oliver Prayon, who’s currently a project manager at a leading global investment bank. Oliver will share factors that influence the way we work and our performances at work such as internal factors like EQ or soft skills, and external factors such as hard skills or things you can learn in school, and give some useful advice on how to better enjoy our work. 

Ở trong tập lần này, Huyền Lê sẽ trò chuyện với Oliver Prayon, là sếp quản lý dự án tại một ngân hàng đầu tư tài chính hàng đầu trên thế giới. Oliver sẽ chia sẻ những nhân tố ảnh hưởng đến quá trình làm việc của chúng ta và làm sao để có môi trường làm việc tốt hơn bao gồm các nhân tố bên trong (EQ và kỹ năng mềm), các yếu tố bên ngoài như kĩ năng và kiến thức học được ở trường đại học, cùng với đó là đưa ra lời khuyên làm thế nào để bạn có kết quả tốt hơn trong công việc.

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Transcript

Huyền: Welcome back to Beyond Tra Da by Huyen Le and Tra My. I’m Huyen - Your host in Frankfurt. When recording for this episode, the weather is still very cold as it’s in the winter. That’s why I’m jealous that everyone in Vietnam gets to enjoy the beautiful weather, and they don’t even have a lockdown.Anyway, welcome to Beyond Tra Da of Tra My and Huyen. So far we have covered a lot of topics such as: relationship, marriage, personal growth and social pressures. And today's topic is about jobs and career. I’m sure a lot of people will be interested in this topic as well. And we will particularly focus on internal and external factors that define someone’s performance at work. And what exactly are internal and external factors, our guest will share in details in a little bit. So the tips for today will not only be useful to students who are still in university or just graduated who want to have a head start for a career of their choices. But this is also relevant to people who in mid-career, for example like myself, are very interested in this topic as well. Or maybe people who want to improve their work environment. 
So our guest for today is Oliver, he’s currently working as a project manager for a global...investment bank and he has a lot of years of experiences in different field industries and will be in the best position to have this talk with us. So thank you for being with us today Oliver

Oliver: Hello everyone! Huyen: By the way I never told you this but my first impression of you is the guy who has never been in public transportation. I remember thinking to myself who is this guy that had never been on a bus or a train. Maybe that’s why you ended up working in Investment Banking so you won’t ever have to. I guessed!
Oliver: Maybe!

Huyen: Anyway, I’ll jump into the question part. So my ex-bf worked in a private equity fund and I know how competitive it is to get in this field, you know Investment banking, equity and venture capital. I know it’s super competitive. Then can you share with us how’s your journey so far and how did you ended up where you are right now
Oliver: Yeah sure! Thank you Huyen for the opportunity to talk to you and to everyone who is listening. I don’t think it is a good idea to share my personal story and that is simply because I was just lucky and not more than that. So I think a lot of people who are listening are maybe very much focused on education and their university degree and you know who they are doing in school. And I have never seen a University from the inside in my life. So I think I’m rather the exception to the rule of our industry because Investment banking tends to hire from high-end universities and focus very much on quality. The time I started in the industry was different, like 20 years ago. That was the gold rush menia phrase when they pretty much hired everyone who was walking around on the streets.The one thing I’m proud of is I managed to get into the industry and I’m still there. But nevertheless that kinda qualified me to talk about inner equality a bit more because I’m completely lacking any external factors. Huyen: Wow actually that came as a surprise for me. I have known you for a short period of time but you struck me as someone so confident and you know, like you are knowledgeable, there are a lot of things that we can talk about. So yeah, actually it came as a surprise for me. And you are right, from my ex-bf  that they only hire from very top universities and even in those uni they will narrow down to few people because the vacancies are very limited. And yes you are right, you are in the best position to share with us today.By the way, you mentioned luck. I do believe there is a factor of luck but I don’t believe it’s only luck. I believe you are where you are today because of some luck of course as we all need that, but because of your hard work and your com…. As well.
Because luck can only be so much So when we had the discussion, when I called you to talk about the topic we will be talking today. Mentioned internal and external factors and I was curious as well. And you just mentioned again. So can you clarify what this means? What are those? And what do you mean by that?

Oliver: Yeah sure! So assume the starting point like our core. Then with external factors I mean everything that goes out-bound. So the energy that we use to educate ourselves, to do any master, doctor or high university degree. Education, all of that external factors including how we look and to train our body and stuff like that. That’s what I mean by external. So mainly say, IQ that we try to train and onboard as much knowledge as we can in school and in university that’s why I mean with outbound. With in-bound or internal factors, I mean everything from the core that goes inside. So that’s like our emotional intelligence. What I discovered that like pretty much everyone I know in the industry is completely focused on these external factors. So they tried to be the best in school, best in class, best in university, whatever. Try to read more books than you do. Now a lot of people think that they are spiritual or do inner work when they use meditation but just for the reason to be even better at their job, so to concentrate more and have more ability. So when we talk about success and career today. I think one needs to ask the question why. Why do you want to have a career and why do you want to be successful, right? Then you can dig deeper and deeper. So you can say first point I want to get rich or more money, to have some security. To be able to feed my family, whatever. If you go deeper and deeper, there are more levels. But by the end of the day if you do all that work. You’ll end up with: We as humans, everyone, every single human on this planet want to be happy. So if you want to approach this, there something else you should focus on as well. Just approaching happiness by external factors doesn’t do the trick. If you think money or something external like money or power or title or big bank can unlock inner happiness then you are using the wrong tool. So I tend to think of it like, if we take a picture of a bird, it has two wings. The wing on the right is external factors - education which you need to have, best case you need intrinsic interest at what you are doing. It’s true when you said it's not only luck, it was my intrinsic interest in the finance market. I love it! I started caring about it when I was 14, 15 years old. I started to read books about the financial market because of the film “Wall Street”. It kind of fascinated me and I want to know what’s going on there, what traders really do, stuff like that. There needs to be some intrinsic interest, there needs to be education and minimum IQ to get onboard. So that the right wing.If you want to pursue happiness and also a career as a side effect of happiness because people are attracted to people that are happy with themselves. Then you also should train that left wing to make it fly. So the emotional intelligence to look inside you and find out what is going on inside you and to train quality and cultivate qualities that will help you with that left wing. And that makes you fly. I don’t say that you need to do one or both, but if we talk about success - with that headline success then you should train both, if you want to have a spiritual life - I’m not saying become a monk and sit in the… that’s perfectly fine. If you want to be really successful and ultimately gain a state of inner happiness then you should both factor to train. Huyen: Wow there is so much material in the short answer of yours, probably there can be few other episodes we can cover some of those topics. You mentioned a few things that I find interesting, for example the definition of success, actually everyone has a different definition of success and you should have your own what you can say you sound to be successful, right? And it’s different for everyone. And also another thing is finding happiness in what you do. Actually we need to fit it, work is one big part of our life at least 30% and for some people it’s 40% 50%. So if you are just miserable in what you are doing then you are miserable for 50% of your life. I don’t think so much money can make up for it. So that are some of the very interesting points

Oliver: Yeah not any amount of money. Yes it’s absolutely true what you are saying. I’m still fascinated by people I have around me. You know, everyone who listens to this, if I tell you that money won’t make you happy then everyone gonna be like “yeah ok, that’s boring. We all know it, we heard it like a thousand times, what’s new?”. But if you watch people in life, that’s still the path they go. They say I know better but they don’t do better. So what I could share today, what we can talk about is “what is that left wing”. What are those inner qualities that show you a different path or a way to go. I think maybe people don’t really know about that or don’t see the alternatives. Most of the coaches in today's world, they just teach you about the right hand wing. And how to be higher, better, more educated, more concentrated, more successful and more money and whatever. It just uses this technique of the left wing for the right wing. It doesn’t make you looking elegant when you are flying

Huyen: So yeah, actually it's also resonated with me personally at some point and actually a lot of Vietnamese. Because we were raised in a culture where there is so much focus on studying. That’s what we know, how we think, if only you do well in school then you can get a good job and be happy. That’s just practical life. For example my niece who is in secondary school, she has so much studying and so much homeworks. She never has time, even in summer to spend on holiday, and I remember telling my sister “OMG you gotta let her be in the sun”. I know school is important but it should not be a full-time thing for a kid. So I guess it resonates with a lot of people in Vietnam who are under constant pressure to do well in school. So it’s great that you share some of your thoughts today.
So you mentioned internal factors, but in the term people probably know more is soft skills, I guess there are some equivalent to those terms which a lot of Vietnamese people are already aware of. So I read an interesting article yesterday about a research by ….in 2016 and this research shows that 90% of Executives listed that soft skill is a priority in their employee. So that shows how important it is. So from your personal perspective why do you think it is so important? and can you share an example that you encounter at your workplace?
 
Oliver: It's funny how you mentioned that research, because I would never come up with the idea for that research. In every single industry we work at, every single place in this world is the human business, people business so you can quantify whatever you want but by the end of the day it’s a human being making decisions about the career of another human being. You can quantify whatever you want but I would argue that 100% that happens on the emotional part between 2 human beings more than any quantitatives scale.
Huyen: that’s true, before you continue I just want to share something. That's fascinating what you just said, I read another article that says when they interview candidates, they already have that sort of bias split for a second, the first time ever in the interview. I know it's unfair, but it's true, it's psychology that people can't help it.
 
Oliver: And then you try to make an argument of what happened in your subconscious emotional body. A worthy argument like education is blah blah blah. Even if the candidate has a great education but something in you doesn't like these people then you will always find things to speak against him. Everyone would think “oh my University degree is not good enough” but no, it has nothing to do with that, in my opinion. Let's take an example of a friend of mine who is very much into this career thing. If he wants a promotion and the way he played it was just working hard. Like 14, 15, 16 hours per day and the company threw tons of work on him. He is often complaining to me or to my colleagues that it was just too much, that he was trying to do it and trying to show everyone that he's capable of being a hard worker.
The day of the promotion came he did not get the promotion. He was upset and he called me and then complained about “they didn't promote me” and he could give you a good argumentation of why that happened. For some weeks he was very depressed and upset with the company and talking badly about the company without colleagues and stuff like that and then he again came back to the path of hard working because next year. So if we just take that example that that pretty much shows what I mean with lack of internal factors because he was completely lacking internal factors, everything he did was try to work hard. So first of all what I told him is to stop trying to understand what happens, stop trying to understand what kind of reality because a large organization that he works at and that is the same with life is not logical, it is not binary but it's a living organism. Thousand things are happening and he said like “because of this and that they didn't promote me” actually he couldn't know. A lot of people care too much about finding any rational reasons for things that are purely not rational because there were too many underlying factors.I work at the same company so I knew that like he was on the list for promotion, like 3 days before another guy resigns and the company wants to keep him so they tried everything and lastly they promised him the promotion they only could promote two people and so my friend dropped off the list and I can go to the other guy.That had nothing to do with him you didn't know but he was making stories
So in large organizations, in life don't try to understand reality, it's just happening.Secondly, more importantly, don't take it personally. The sentence like “they did not promote me” is emotionally not a grown-up sentence, emotionally like a kid.If we dig deeper into this if you are a kid, if you are a fool, like basically like 1 to 7 years old, so the first six seven years of your life. if you grow up and everything and that is Western and Eastern psychology everyone agrees that kids take everything personal, they think that everything that happens happens because of them.  My mother is unhappy because of me, my parents got divorced because of me, that is like every brain, every psychology works like this. We grow up thinking that things happened because of me, okay?The second thing is that when we grow up we try to understand the word. We look at what you know how our parents are doing, with the others in the neighbors are doing with the teachers and not only taking it personally but trying to come up with beliefs of how things are. It’s like a 6 years old looking at his father and making up belief in what a man is.
With very very limited knowledge of what the world really is. Like you look at your father and make up the belief of what man is. First man in your life is your father, the first person that has power over you is your parents. So do you have a right to speak up, do you have a right to show up yes or no this is only believe that you are you're coming up in your childhood and then we grow up. We got a bit smarter, we learned how to articulate ourselves and we learn different languages and that we get a master's degree and then we are adults. That is true for the physical body, not so for the emotional body. It does not grow up, it remains the same.


So in you there are still the same beliefs about how the word functions that you have when you had been a kid because you never typically you don't you know make them up again revisit them and ask if this is really true so we see the world through the lenses and through the glasses of our childhood beliefs around our success, if we are allowed to speak up yes or no.

So in his case, he thought that if he works hard there will be some moment where someone is looking at him and realizing he's working hard and then is giving him a promotion. This is like the little kids that try to be very nice to get a cookie. That doesn't happen in the business world, so I told him that the first thing he's like you know trying to need to understanding of that and it's like frequently speaking now with his boss on a monthly call to check how much work do I have, is that right I am I doing the right things and we're on the right track, is everything I can do differently so to come into a position of making your own workplace and your future and not just doing  what you're asked to do as a little kid.Secondly is not taking personal, we already touched on that it had nothing to do with him, as it was just happening right.Then later on there is like a spiritual level about that because there is something in him that of course you know is creating because of his inner belief so there's always a part that is that is personal in the way of what it makes with you. Reality happens, it has nothing to do with you. What inner feelings are coming up inside of you that is something that happens inside you and that is what I mean by monitoring that, checking and trying to cultivate new ways of being in situations. Is that clear?

Huyền: I just realized you also got …. And I have that too and I found it so soothing throughout the day. So that was niceI’m particularly interested in your advice to your friend. Cultivate your own project or your own work, not only do only things people asked you to do. I found it interesting because I had a similar situation and this might be also relevant to female viewers. Women are particularly not good at asking and we don’t ask for things, we think that if we do a good job then we will get promoted or a raise. And I saw it happen at my company, we have 2 people in the accountant department and there is this woman - she is great, she does everything and the male colleague is the one who keeps asking “what can I do? When can I get the promotion” And she didn’t. At the end, you know the answer - it’s not logical - she should be the one to get the promotion because she does all the job but instead the guy got the promotion. So like you said, in big corporations there is no rational logic to a lot of decisions.

With my boss as well, the other day he said there are going to be a lot of restructuring and I sent him an email saying “I would want more responsibilities, I know I am capable just let me know so please let me know what I should do” This is from a woman perspective is that women are not very good at asking, so for all the female viewers watching right now, please ask! And combine that with Oliver’s advice, that’s a very good point Oliver, thank you!Go back to question: For students who just thought out, what are the skills they should start learning, developing?
Oliver: For the students - I have big respect for everyone in University learning a lot. I think at that state is enough to focus and concentrate on that  because everything else maybe a bit too much to handle. But at the same time monitoring the point where there is some time, monitoring what you are spending your time on. Is it external factors like do you do to train 2 times per week? I have nothing against gym but realize it’s your alter body, you are doing something in the alter world to whatever, look better, be more fit and so on. Or is there something you can do to train your emotional system like one per week. People tend to train their body much more often than their emotional body. But at the beginning I think it makes complete sense to build up muscle for the right wing. If you are pursuing a career then you need to be the point where you switch over and start training the left wing as well.
Huyen: Yeah that’s true, I agreed. Nowaday people are more aware of taking care of ourselves, but like you said it’s two parts of ourselves - physical and mental - there is already a lot of focus on the physical part but we should also pay attention to our mental health as well as your term “Internal Factors”.So that’s for students, so for people who are in their mid-career, do you have any advice for them?

Oliver: Ok, maybe come to realize that the point where everyone in your company is intelligent, hardworking, dedicated. At that point, you will not make any more career with your right wing. If you are 10 years in the company no one will ask you about your University degree, your master or whatever - no one cares. So later in that point of time, you need to know that hardworking, intelligent, good University degrees won’t get you anywhere further from here. So that’s the point where you should really focus on inner personal qualities, where you should really work on your own emotional body, you should see the world a bit more grow up than just from the kid perspective, and cultivate happiness and those qualities inside you. And that will resonate with people, will resonate with managers. So the example you gave  before about the guy got promotion instead of the woman, I’m not sure if it was the man vs woman thing. But sure it was someone who saw that guy with adultery behavior in creating his work place asking frequently about what is working, what is not good or what to do and someone who is just a kid and only does what told to do. And on the subconscious level for every manager that gives out a bad feeling if there is someone you can play with, do a lot of work and do whatever you want and when you give them more work they will simply do it. These people tend to think that this is good. And the line manager likes the idea of people there just working and working all day. But on a subconscious level that gives them the feeling that this is a kid and not a creator of his own life or workplace and he is not able to take responsibilities. So when it comes to managing a position or more senior position, you want people who can take responsibilities and not people who are only intelligent and just able to work 16 hours per day - that is just not enough. So showing that you are able to take responsibilities for your own feelings, workflows, for your own life that you are able to create something and being constantly interpersonal exchange with people - that will get you further. So that’s the left wing right?
So we work on a subconscious level with people, we make people like us, we give them the feeling that we are adults. Because I don’t think a lot of managers in today's world would like to take care of kids, they would have chosen to be a kindergarten teacher. They don’t want to care about kids, they want to care about employees, adults. So, grow up :)

Later in this state, grow up your emotional body to become adultery, to have face-to-face conversation with your line manager and not come from a position where a lot of people are looking up to their boss. So who is looking up to their boss is the little kid looking up to their father and asking him for what to do, what is right and wrong. If you grow up emotionally, you will understand you are exchanging energy, you give your work energy, he gives you money and it’s on the same level. And start talking with people on the same level and start creating a workplace and what its needs for your career to go on.
Huyen: That's a very interesting point that somewhat changes the dynamic of how you see your manager. That ownership as well.I can’t remember who told me this but we are in charge of our own career path, actually no one else including the managers. You might feel like they have the responsibilities to look after you. But you are in charge of your career path. 

Oliver: Exactly, that’s the mother quality. That’s the mother we are looking at. As little kids, we wanted our mother to take care of us, to ask us “are you hungry? Did you eat enough? Are you cold?” That’s the mother quality, that the kid wants it and it’s fine for a kid. For adults in a company, the wait for someone who being nice to you is not a good strategy. 

Huyen: Yes that’s true. So the point taken from this is take ownership, ask for what you want and as Oliver also mentioned, get feedbacks from your manager Oliver: Exactly!
Huyen: So I know you have a lot of things to share and a lot of them can be broken down to further things. Oliver: Yes always!
Huyen: I know it’s hard to get all of this wisdom into 40 minute talk and we are doing our best. If there is a big billboard and you can put just one advice on it about your job and career, what would that be?
Oliver: Well that’s a tough one. Subscribe to this podcast!?! Huyen: Thank you. 
Oliver: If you want to succeed and I don’t mean money, I mean happiness. If you want to succeed in this world, you need to look inside you and do the work inside you. As my master already tends to say and that would be the one I put on the billboard “The only way out is in”. 

Huyen: Great! Thank you Oliver for sharing, I’m sure a lot of people watching this find this helpful. I learned a lot today so thank you, especially about the part of getting instant feedback with your manager and not just waiting. I think that's a very good way for me personally.Thanks again for sharing!For you guys, thank you for listening if you have any questions for us, please reach out. Or if you have any questions for Oliver reach out as well. If there is any particular topic you guys want us to cover or if you want us to invite Oliver again for another discussion, please reach out.Thank you and see you in another episode.
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