'You never come out once, you come out everyday' - Martin Willis (English audio)

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Homosexuality in English football has been described as a taboo subject by both players and the media. There has also been an ongoing battle to advocate for LGBTQ players, where they can be comfortable coming out, be their true self and play the sport they love and devote for their country's victory. 

In December 2020 The rainbow laces campaign was run with both football and rugby battling homophobia in British sport. The campaign aims to raise awareness and support for all LGTBQ+ players and fans.  Football clubs from the Premier League down to the football league took part in the Rainbow Laces campaign. Where hundreds of thousands of people lace up and show their support each year. Sadly as of 2021, there are no openly gay male footballers in England's top four divisions. 

At Beyond Tra Da, we think that everyone should be free and comfortable to do what they love without being judged or harassed. And every one of us has a role to support and make this happen. In this episode 15, you will hear from Martin Willis - a proud Queer Stand-up Comedian on his point of view about this issue, what we can do to be more open-minded and supportive LGBTQ footballers. Besides that Martin will also share his own experience of coming out, his view on dealing with jealousy and trust issues in his relationship with his partner.
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Transcript

Hello guys, welcome back to Beyond Tra Da podcast. My name is Tramy and luckily it’s a sunny day here in London. This June, everyone has been so excited for this year Euro tournament after more than a year in lockdown. 

It was something that excites the whole nation and gives us a reason to look forward to. It even excited me, even though I’m not a football fan and I’m not English 

England had reached their first final in a major tournament since winning the World Cup in 1966 and, despite taking the lead against Italy, drew 1-1 after extra time before cruelly losing the penalty shootout. 

Even though England did not become the champion, England is truly a winner in my heart. I also want to send Massive congratulations to the Italian fans! 

But what makes me sadder is to see all of that progress. All of that love and pride and unity, all to end in racism and abuse. That’s how we will now remember this final. Not as the extraordinary victory of such a brilliant England team for even making it to the final, but as the lowlife vitriol of football fans. They are attacking Italian fans, abusing Black people in the street and domestic abuse is predicted to rise by 38 percent if England loses. 

The Wembley gates have been rushed by 5000 ticketless fans. Anthems have been booed, stewards punched, murals defaced, racism paraded across social media. 

But that’s not the only issue in this king sport here in England. Homosexuality in English football has been described as a taboo subject by both players and the media. There has also been ongoing battle to advocate for LGBTQ players, where they can be comfortable coming out, be their true self and play the sport they love and devote for their country victory. 

In December 2020 The rainbow laces campaign was run with both football and rugby battling homophobia in British sport. The campaign aims to raise awareness and support for all LGTBQ+ players and fans. 

Football clubs from the Premier League down to the football league took part in the Rainbow Laces campaign. where hundreds of thousands of people lace up and show their support each year. Sadly As of 2021, there are no openly gay male footballers in England's top four divisions. Conversely several high-profile England'woman players have come out as lesbian including Lily Parr, Casey Stoney, Kelly Smith and Fara Williams, with attitudes around the women's game being more tolerant than the men's. 

At beyonda TraDa we think that  everyone should be free and comfortable to do what they love without being judged or harassed. And everyone of us, we all have a role to support and make this happen. In this episode 15, recorded in the middle of the winter last lockdown, You will hear from my friend Martin Willis - a proud Queer Stand up Comedian on his point of view about this issue , what we can do to be more open-minded and supportive LGBTQ footballers. Beside that Martin will also share his own experience of coming out, his view on dealing with jealousy and trust issues in his relationship with his partner. 

Hi everybody! Welcome to the podcast Beyond Tra Da of Huyen Le & Tra My, my name is Tra My and I’m in London. Today I’m going to interview my friend who lives really close but we haven’t met for ages because of lockdown - Martin Willis. He going to share about the subject of why gay footballer don’t come out and story of his coming-out.
So the reason I’m having you here today. I forgot to mention that you are also a comedian, founder of your own company… how would you say it?

Martin: It’s a live comedy production company. We have been a live comedy production company for a while, but wasn’t a lot of stage performances happened last year. We also organize comedy live shows in London and run some mental health programs. Loads of different things in comedy. 
My: Cool! 
My: at that time, in early December the Premier League have the rainbow laces campaign which at every game the captains will wear rainbow laces to encourage any gay footballer would like to come out. All the banners were very welcoming but still we didn’t see any footballer come out. I think there was a twitter account of somebody tweeted that they are 23 y/o and about to come out. They will come out to their family that weekend and it got a lot of support and the conversation in the comment section was really heated. A lot of well-known people came and supported that person but eventually that person said: “Oh I’m not ready for this” and they deleted that account. So there are a lot of people who believe that hook and see it as a fun game. I think a lot of people got disappointed because it’s time for the world to welcome a gay English footballer. There were only 2 footballers came out right?

Martin: yeah actually I only know of one, I think it was around 1990 or 1992 or something. The story was actually tragic, he actually killed himself! Sorry, trigger warning. He died by suicide. I don’t know why. I might assume that it is related to the fact that he came out just not long before. And also his brother was also a footballer who later on became a TV host, and it reported that his brother pretty much kicked him out of the family. So that is just one example of, as far as I’m aware he was the only Premier League player who ever been openly gay and…

My: while he was playing.

Martin: Yeah he was still playing. Which means currently that’s 100% of people that came out who were footballers and died soon after by their own hand because of the backlash for coming out. So there is such a stigma attached to it. What I also found really interesting is that this is not just the British’s problem. I think there are only 2 or 3 worldwide and bearing in mind there are thousands of thousand professional footballers, even ten thousand of…

My: there are 5,000 footballer in the UK 

Martin: That's in the UK, imagine the whole world. And I think there is one American  

My: And he has a family now, I think so.

Martin: Yeah! And it's statistically impossible.

My: There is about 10 over 10 thousand while in the women football scene there are so many lesbian came out and they have their partner playing at the games. It’s very inspiring and funny too when the 2 sides of football scenes with the male football scene got so much more attention but were so harsh on LGBT and the female got less attention but was able to live as their true self.
Martin: I think that's a very important distinction you just made there actually between the man game and the woman game. Because some of the biggest name in the woman game are openly queer. Megan who isn’t just gay but also became anti-Donal Trump political force, this is an amazing woman. But I think it said a lot about how fans are at those games and also our expectation of gender of performance. I think culturally, certainly in the UK we expect to an extend woman that are professional sport people if they’re stronger or all of these things we sort of associate that with masculinity, we associate this with being gay. I’m not saying this based on any fact at all. But there is a historical, societal expectations, and there are expectations if you are sport man that you would lead a certain lifestyle and that doesn’t involve being gay. But obviously being gay is not a lifestyle it is something you are born with, it’s not something you live out, it’s something that you are. It's been really interesting thing, I think we should talk in plain term that we have gay male professional footballer, definately, have to be. So you gotta go and ask yourself why not? Why are people not openly being gay, and I think a lot of it comes down to fan culture.
Particularly in the 1980s, there was a culture that went hand in hand with the working class. I'm not saying if you are working class you are more likely to be a hooligan. Fatcist cultural where extreme far right parties that used to get their membership from hooligans at the game, they used to gaining member for fatcist party because they knew that people just wanted to fight. They just want to wear a uniform and fight. If you are a gay foofballer, even now that’s not the dominant culture anymore, but what I’m saying people don’t want to choose to put themselve into almost literally the line of fire. It is such a dangerous position to put yourself in.

Even though in the 1980s you are more likely to have someone fight you outside of the game, maybe. But in 2021, if you are gay footballer I would say 99% certainly that if you come out you would receive god know how much abuse on social media. 

My: Yeah we got that new age with social media when everybody has something to say. 

Martin: yeah, and hooligan culture just got worse because people can do it in their living room now. Like people don’t go out and fight on the street the same way they used to but people do sit on their sofa and fight whoever they want from there. Especially woman, people of colors, queer, gay… This predominant idea of masculinity is a toxic long standing tradition.

My: As a footballer to put himself out there, there is a lot to ask. Like why would you leave all those years living in peace to come out in front of over 60,000 people on a field. And on social media it’s day-in-day-out, nonstop humiliating you. You can’t just turn off your phone, go to the mountain and be a monk. Well I hope for the future, the younger generation is now already openly gay, later on it would become easier for someone to just say: “hey, I’m gay!”.

Martin: I feel it getting close. I think when one comes out the other will follow for sure. Also gay people in football also know other gay people in football.

My: yeah you can spot one when you see one right? You gotta teach me someday!

I’m sure they know, it is just that there is no motive for them now. We need a pioneer to say: “It’s okay to come out” 
Martin: The role model goes beyond football. What role model do you have in gay culture for strong man, for man to show that you can be gay and strong. These people 100% exist, they are a kind of sub- culture. For example someone like a bear - this big, hairy guy that is naturally strong but there not commonly in the published eyes. As a society we are still able to hold on to the idea of if you are not a straight man then you are weak in some way. That’s the reason people target queer people, women. It’s the reason people target disable people. I was having a conversation with my partner the other day, she was telling me about the time she used to date a disable person and people shout abuse at them. And it’s the same instinct that straight men have when they feel someone is weak. It's a part of the idea about masculinity that we learned to tell man that it’s ok to show your dominance toward someone you perceive as weak and abuse them in whatever way you want. Because what is important to some men, especially to some men is to feel strongest, to feel best 

My: To feel dominant, I think so. It’s the same in women’s world, the queen B. There are so few seats for women on the table, like 2 out of 10. And the 2 women have to fight for the seats.

I worked with a lot of Queen B before and it's not okay to have a personal life, it’s not okay to go to the gym at 7pm because you are expected to work until 8pm. But maybe go back to yourself, I met you  years ago. You were a straight man then. Then what happened? How did you change?

Martin: Well my coming out, it took a long time. But actually when I first came out I was like 15 years old. It was around the time that I met your husband and other friends. I was openly bi-sexual. I don’t think I actually know that I’m bisexual, I thought I was weird. And I knew that i didn’t fit in and I found this word and my friend that she said she was. She is still my friend until these days. We are like best friends living this queer life, we talk on the phone everyday. We went to the mall and looked at boys and girls. That was really a sort of awakening. And I was 15 y/o around that time, not wanting to get too dark about it, I got used being abused for openly being bisexual. Ranging from everyday constant homophobic jokes which still to these days still happen. But when you are 15 and you are a boy you would hear that a lot, whether you are gay or not, it every provasive. Ranging from that to physical assault, really frightening events, even death threats. I quite curricular learned that the world around me does not want me to be queer. They were very specifically told to me. 

My: But you were in London, one of the biggest cities in the whole world. But this still happened?

Martin: Yeah people are the same, and kids and teenages are the same. That’s very common everywhere in the world. It was then not until I was 22, 23 that I was able to say: “I’m actually bisexual”. I just told it to one person at that time, I was living in Spain for a couple of years. I think a part of the reason I went to Spain was because I knew I needed to understand something, I was lost and didn’t know why and I have to accept that part of me. Then I started to have a first date with a man in Spain which I found terrifying. He was such a lovely boy but I remember he kissed me at a cafe in Madrid is so gay-friendly, so gay that they host pride month every year. It’s very gay! And this guy kissed me at the cafe and I remember all I was thinking was: “Is everyone ok that this is happening now?” How can I know that there isn’t someone over there who is really pissed off at these 2 guys kissing in the room right now. Because at that point that was all I had been taught, people don’t want you to do that. I was specifically told not to do that. 
My: So how did your family process the whole time? I didn’t know that you are half Indian. And you say it the whole time that people look at you and might say you are half Spaines or something. And this year in lockdown you had to celebrate … with your family and your mom was in a sarong which is really cute.

Yeah so how did your family take this?

Martin: Good question! Even though I’m half English we are still a pretty traditional Indian family. My mom used to be a banker, both of her brothers are accountants and my sister is an accountant.
My: Right I bang it right on the money!

Martin: Yeah we are still true to form. I couldn’t be luckier in how open and kind and supportive my parents are. It’s just really consistent. I remember telling my mom that I’m bi when I was 15, and I think my mom sort of knew what I was doing. But she was cool about it, like: “So what?” and that was helpful. The Indian side of my family did struggle with it a little bit I think, I know that my uncle is still getting his head around it. It shows you how the things that people said to you can stick with you for a long time. You can remember things even just passing that someone else said and they forgot years ago. It at least 10 years ago and my uncle say something was like homophobic but not in a cruel or aggressive way, like when I said I was with my girlfriend or boyfriend he would say: “Well I hope it’s a girlfriend”. And it’s a kind of thing that you mind not even noticed it, but with queer people and struggling to except that part it fead into this narrative that get into my head telling me that people don’t want me to be gay, be queer. But actually they all know that about me and it’s been however long, it’s been 5 years it only ever has been accepted. I think it would be different if I came out in India, to my family that are still in India. My mom in particular is a very liberal person, she came to England in the 1970s, she grew up around like black people, she used to go to the reggae and dub night  in the 1970s. She worked in banking for a bit then worked in childcare, she has been working in childcare for 30-40 years now. She is a really kind-hearted person in a very liberal way, but India is a very conservative country. 
My: I think to everyone in any circumstance to put themselve out there is a very scary thing to do. But only the people who have the courage to live true to oneself can do that. 

Martin: I think that’s true, but also from what I know that you will learn quickly how to work in a different environment and how to put yourself out there safely. For example the module I’m doing this term on my Master is Gender Sexuality on Social Media.

My: You would be like: “I’ll be so good at this, I’m gonna nail this”. 

Martin: Exactly! So most of people in the course are female and the rest of the guys all seem to be queer. In that space people is paid to be queer, it’s acually vastly referable. For straight people in there will disrupt the delicate balance.

My: Everyone in world is wish to have a gay best friend I’m telling you that! Like my friend when she told me she will go hangout with her gay best friend, I’m so jelous!

Martin: Well this is the thing. When I was like 13 to 15, as I mentioned one of my friends earlier, I was primarily friends with girls. Like I understood girls in a way.

My: Well I married one so…
Martin: But your one is a nice one :) So I have always been friends with girls and it is a safety thing. 

My: Yeah because girls are borned more nurtured, more compatible, more passionate.

Martin: Yeah and I grew up with sisters as well. I think it’s very interesting and it translated into comedy as well because I favorite gig was when I performed at queer gig. Whether it’s a queer comedy night or something similar. For once, they paid better :) the pink pound!

My: Oh I didn’t know that! 

Martin: yeah it’s a thing, you get so much more money doing queer gig, because gay people want to support their community in the way that straight people isn’t. They not only support the comedian but they support the whole night, the whole community. 

My: So going back yourself. Your latest partner is your girlfriend. She sounds great. I can't wait to meet her.

How is that dating back to women, how has it been?

Martin: it’s very nature, primarily in my life I have been dating women so I alway been comfortable in that way but I it’s the first time that I’m in a relationship with a woman who is also queer. And I think that changes the game completely. I think that’s just the level of mature understanding. I didn’t know that is the thing that I’m looking for but it has been the whole time. I need someone that get the confusion, self criticism, bring the comfort and understand the sadness of being queer. So to have someone else who knows that, have lived through that whole…

My: The feeling of not belonging to anywhere and you found the person who feels the same, then you two feel like you belong to each other.

Martin: Exactly! I think it created a better understanding. It’s a long running joke among lesbian that they would get engage on the first date, I think it comes from mature understanding. My partner is very different from me in a lot of ways but on the stuff that are closest to our hearts, things that we have lived through, struggled through and come out of...like that’s the stuff that we both shared. Also we met in February of last year and within one month we went into lockdown and I left London for a month to my parents’ house. We had this real getting really close, spent a month together and then gone! I was away for like 2 months with my parent’s. 

So the relationship has its ups and downs and I think it meant that we saw each other’s vulnerable and through difficult times because within a month we couldn’t see each other. It meant the relationship immediately got tested. That made it so much stronger as a result, we know what each other can take and what can’t. And because we are both queer so we had worked out how to have a lot of fun while being apart. I think there is certain freedom sexually being with a queer person that’s also woman, we are both open and excited to discovery a place and that’s very exciting thing. I think this will only come from the fact that we both know the things that other people have that we don’t have. And so as a result you work out the way to… 

My: To compromise? 

Martin: Yes! 

My: to subsidise

Martin: Yes! And that’s just one of the ways of our openness that comes from a queer relationship.

My: But I can’t imagine if I date someone is bisexual and I have to gaurd myself up whenever he went out playing FIFA with the guys. That would be so exhausting. It was just one text that already got me tripping! How did you deal with it?

Martin: Well I'm just not a jealous type genuinely. You can’t be on your guard the whole time because it will be on every conversation to everyone, that’s just exhausting. I don’t have the mental capacity to be jealous all the time. But that doesn’t mean I don’t get jealous, there are obviously all sorts of situations that I would. I think it is more situational, for example if she is with her friends I would know that they are just friends and have been friends for a long time. And I know if I hangout with my friends, a - they are all straight, even if I want to - and lads, I don’t! Even if I did obviously nothing was going to happen because they are straight guys! I’m relatively convincing but I can’t be that good. And I have no desire to be that convincing. This can have a point to go back to what we are talking about footballers. If someone is gay then they are after you, like they want to fuck you now! And like what? Do we necessarily be attracted to whoever you are? I think not a lot of people know that being attracted to men doesn’t mean that you are attracted to all men. And the same for my partner who is attracted to women. But as I said I do get jealous, I do get jealous around certain guys who are around my partner. Anh I think that’s the sort of cultural crush that I’m holding on to and I think there is some truth in it. I mean I trust guys less, if my partner is with a woman even if she is queer and fancy her, I would trust them to be more respectful than I do with a straight guy. I mean people with all sorts of experiences, but at least in this country the predatory people who are being sexually aggressive are primarily straight men. Now if you go to a gay bar there will be primariry gay men, but they are primariry men. In my experience, men that are born as men are the most sexually aggressive people. So I still feel less  comfortable about my partner hanging out with certain men. Not all men, but certain men. So there I go creating my own narrative in my head as we all do.

My: I think the jealous either you are bi-sexual or non-bisexual or straight, it comes down to one thing that how secure you are with yourself. How you feel wholesome within yourself, how do you believe if the partner chooses to leave you then that’s fine. If they cheat on you that’s fine. It’s not because of you but themselve. If it comes down to one thing, it’s the same way it works in any world.

Martin: I think that’s such a good point, it takes a long time to get there. In my 20s I was so jealous because as you said, I had no idea who I was and I was so worried all the time. Because I had so much doubt I assumed my partner at that time shared all that doubt about me as well. But I was like: “No actually, I just need to grow up!” I just need to recognize who I am and be confident about that. And that was the most appealing thing. If you are confident as well as being kind and all that then that confidence is as appealing as anything else. 

My: You can’t buy that! I never tell this to anyone, not that it's not important now but I just didn’t tell anyone. When we were about to move back to England, before he proposed. He planned to go on this 3 months trip around Asia. At that time we were together for 4 years, I remember vividly that I told before he left: “Look, when you are traveling and want a one night stand, it’s fine with me”. For me I think it’s fine. Because when someone is traveling they are so out of the contact of this normal world and somebody is going away for 3 months. How can I keep him from doing anything? And I think he was like “Hallelujah” inside. I think he would really want to scream out like yay! But he was so reluctant, he was like: “Uhm thanks! But do you realise if you allow me to do that you would be allowed to do the same thing?” he sadly said so. It was faith and square. Funny enough he didn’t travel for 3 months and came back after like a few weeks. He bought the ring.

Martin: Well it worked!
My: Yeah not only the test, I literally thought if my future husband wants to have a one night stand then why not? Because I can’t stop somebody, I can’t make him want to be with me for life. But it worked.

Martin: I think it’s such an expression of trust and faith. I think it’s a really remarkable thing. There are a lot of people in this country having open relationships or ethical non-monogamy relationships. Everyone can work out for themselves what works for them and what not in those situations. I happened to be in one which was awful.

My: I know! It’s not for everybody. I honestly don't think I made for that.

Martin: But the acknowledgement in contact is so important to this situation. Obviously there is a massive difference between someone who is going away for 3 months is just naturally disconnected from the normal life they have been living and someone who is sitting next to you on the sofa but hiding the fact that they are on Tinder or whatever. Those are completely different situations that involve vulnerability. I think that’s great! I can understand why Noel decided to marry you after that :) Because he knew that he could trust you. That’s such a trust building thing to go through together.

My: There is nothing to exchange, no one would know about the fun that Noel and I shared when we were 24 year old, on the dance floor just dancing together. I mean he is 31 now and he is not going to do that. No one can replace me with that, right? It’s a different ball game now if you date him. If somebody wants to step in and have that, that’s fine. So that means I am replaceable but it’s impossible to replace the part. And if I walk out the door tomorrow, he would be replaceable too. I think we laid on that term, that’s why we stayed :) 

Martin: Well I think that’s something underlined, long term. Is the acknowledgment that the other can leave any day. And everyday when you wake up and choose not to leave, because you recognize whatever the relationship can give you like strength, confidence, happiness, security… whatever it is. And from my own experiences, even though I haven’t been through many long term relationships but I have been around them. But something is consistent is the awareness that 2 people are involved and know that we could leave but why would we? But I think people are more like: “Never leave me!” those people are like: “Please never leave me!” oh well, but I kinda want to now :)

My: I have been there actually, it’s so suffocated. It’s almost like you are on death threats everyday, you would die if that person leaves you. But eventually they left and you didn’t die so here I am.

Martin: Yeah I have been in those kinds of relationships as well, they can so quickly turn into toxic. Like my entire confidence, my sense of self would completely rely on 1 person loving me. That’s such a dangerous place to be in. Because genuinely that comes from the fact one person had shown the sign that they might leave. Because of that, you are even more attached to this idea of what they are. Those are just the worst. 

My: I know, don’t go back!

Martin: Yeah

My: In what conclusion do we say being queer? 

Martin: Well what is the conclusion? I don’t think there is one. It's an ongoing thing. Like for me, it’s different for now when you are not going out and seeing people, you not have to face everyday incident of homophibia or seeing other people be queer and feeling supportive as an community. If tomorrow we having a normal day and we are out and about, that there still chances that I still feel uncomfortable about being queer. Or still chances I might feel great being queer by seeing something. Every chance that someone might say something awful to me on the street, but also my partner might do something spectacular and super gay. 

It’s just something that you will constantly engage with and learn more about it and be more comfortable with it. Or at least that’s all I want to do, learn more and be ok. 

My: yeah I think that’s just everybody's journey. The feeling of not belonging. It takes more courage when you decide to put yourself out there. 

Martin: Unless something is happening, it takes a bit less everyday. I was about to say: “You only come out once!” But famously it’s not true. You sort of come out everyday, again and in every different environment that you have. Like I said when I’m on stage: “I come out every time I go on stage!” 

My: Yeah but it’s not like after you came out you would have words written on your forehead saying: “GAY” and nobody would ask you any question ever again. 

Martin: It would be much easier. But I do do that, I have this pink hat and I wear that and people would know because they already spotted it.
My: Thank you so much for sharing all the goodies today, to us.
Martin: It’s my pleasure, it’s been fun.

My: It’s really fun, let’s come back for another time for another topic. Thank you so much Martin. Bye everybody