The Goblin Emperor by Katherine Addison

This week, your hosts are covering The Goblin Emperor by Katherine Addison, which turns out to be a delightful intersection of both of their interests. They discuss emotional journeys in adjacent fantasy, political coups, and unique grammar conventions. They also evaluate what, exactly, makes a goblin.

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Thanks to the following musicians for the use of their songs:

- Amarià for the use of “Sérénade à Notre Dame de Paris”
- Josh Woodward for the use of “Electric Sunrise”

Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 4.0 License

Transcript

Lilly 0:04

Hello and welcome to Fiction Fans, a podcast where we read books and other words, too. I'm Lily,

Sara 0:09

And I'm Sarah.

Lilly 0:11

and tonight we will be discussing The Goblin Emperor by Katherine Addison. But first, what's something great that happened recently?

Sara 0:19

Mr. Squeak turned nine on Monday.

Lilly 0:22

Happy birthday, Mr. Squeak. I have to say, she was very prominent in our last episode.

Sara 0:30

She does like to make her presence known, it's true.

Lilly 0:34

Did she get anything special?

Sara 0:36

Lots of cuddles.

Lilly 0:37

Very good.

Sara 0:38

She got a couple of extra lean treats from our neighbor the day after when we saw her on morning dog walk. other than that, no, it was just a normal day for her.

Lilly 0:49

That's a good birthday though,

Sara 0:50

Mm hmm. And she still thinks that she's nine months.

Lilly 0:53

of course. I have darned some socks. I've

Sara 0:58

that's exciting.

Lilly 0:59

journey. Yes,

Sara 1:02

That's pretty cool.

Lilly 1:03

I think so. The first one I did turned out the best, which is a little disappointing,

Sara 1:09

Mmm,

Lilly 1:11

but that's okay. They're socks, that's why they're nice to practice on.

Sara 1:14

yeah. Did you, like, use yarn? Like, tell me more about your process. Maybe this is not podcast conversation, I'm just

Lilly 1:23

it's not I used embroidery thread and I don't have like a darning horn, like one of those things, so I just Yeah. So I just used a small jar and it worked fine.

Sara 1:36

Well, it's very cool.

Lilly 1:38

Thank you. What are you drinking tonight?

Sara 1:41

I was going to drink chamomile tea to be in keeping with the book. And then I discovered that I don't have any chamomile tea. So I thought, well, what can I drink that's related? And I looked up the meaning of the word methaglin, which Maya drinks in this book and doesn't much care for. And it apparently is just mead. So I am drinking mystery mead that I found in my cupboard that I probably made like a year ago and thought, I will definitely know what this is. I don't need to label it. So never labeled it. And now I don't know what it is or when I made it. But it's definitely meat of some sort.

Lilly 2:23

And does it still taste okay?

Sara 2:25

Oh yeah, I mean it's, meat is the kind of thing that, that can get better as it ages.

Lilly 2:30

Yeah, so, it's

Sara 2:32

it, yeah, it's fine.

Lilly 2:34

Well, I am drinking chamomile, because I think it's mentioned in, like, every single goddamn chapter of this book.

Sara 2:41

He drinks a lot of chamomile tea.

Lilly 2:44

It's his morning beverage, which I think is kind of insane. But, hey. to each their own.

Sara 2:50

I mean, I wouldn't drink it in the morning, just because I don't drink a ton of it. But I drink caffeinated tea in the evening because I find that the caffeine is all in my head for me personally. So, like, I can understand doing something in reverse.

Lilly 3:09

It's just, like, such an ingrained bedtime evening tea to me. The idea of starting your day with it just blows me away.

Sara 3:20

I mean, he deserves some peace and serenity and calm in the mornings.

Lilly 3:25

Have you read anything good lately?

Sara 3:27

I have just been doing podcast reading.

Lilly 3:30

That's fair, we have a lot.

Sara 3:32

We have a lot this week. Not much time for extracurricular reading.

Lilly 3:38

But I've started Misery by Stephen King. I think I mentioned it on the last episode, which was a lie, because I had merely downloaded it. I had not actually started it. I was Liking it okay. King's style is never gonna be to my taste. Not the prose, just like the way he describes things. Grosses me out.

Sara 4:01

When it's not supposed to gross you out.

Lilly 4:03

Right, yes.

Sara 4:05

I did want to ask that clarifying question.

Lilly 4:08

I was chugging along and I was like, you know, I, this might be the book that makes me tolerate Stephen King. Then I realized I was only 10 percent in! Oh

Sara 4:18

no. Oh no.

Lilly 4:21

And that's the thing, right? Like, I think I would be less mad at his books if they weren't so fucking long.

Sara 4:29

Yeah, that's fair.

Lilly 4:31

A book that is very long. There's really no middle ground. Anything that would be just like a small pet peeve normally gets blown way out of proportion, I think. Or not out of proportion, but multiplied.

Sara 4:47

I think it can, yeah.

Lilly 4:50

So, we'll see how I feel about it in a little bit.

Sara 4:55

But speaking of long books, The Goblin Emperor. by Katherine Addison is quite long, but I loved it so much.

Lilly 5:04

Yes! This book was so much fun. It is Really not my typical novel. It is political, it's beefy, there's a thousand names, I don't remember a single one.

Sara 5:19

so I'd never read it either, and a brief aside, a thank you to our patrons on Patreon who voted for us to read this book, because this is a patron's choice book which means that We only kind of chose it but it was great I loved it, it's been on my TBR for ages I'd not read it before either, and when I started reading it, I was like, oh no, this is long, dense fantasy with a very political bent, Lily is going to hate it. And then as the book progressed, I kind of relaxed a little bit because I was like, okay, some of these elements are still not going to be to our taste, but at least it's very character focused. So maybe it's going to be okay.

Lilly 6:02

I texted you pretty early on that I was loving it, and

Sara 6:06

You did, and that reassured me too.

Lilly 6:09

I hedged my comment a little. I was like, we'll see if it sticks the landing. It did. It was a good book. I liked it.

Sara 6:14

Yeah, but it is, very dense. Kind of reminds me a little bit of, I want to say, a more classical style of fantasy writing.

Lilly 6:25

I felt that,

Sara 6:26

yeah, like, Inda by Sherwood Smith, or Even the Jacqueline Carey books, just in, in the way that the sentences are long and the, world building is constructed like that kind of way.

Lilly 6:40

And it deals entirely with politics, although of the court intrigue kind. more of the court intrigue kind and less of the, like, international thing.

Sara 6:52

Yeah. I, I mean, it's very interpersonal.

Lilly 6:55

which is the kind of politics that I like, so that worked out for me very well.

Sara 7:00

Yes.

Lilly 7:02

And, I mean, the main character is a goblin.

Sara 7:06

Half goblin.

Lilly 7:07

Yes, he's referred to as the Goblin Emperor. although. I do think it was revealed somewhat far in. I think one of my early comments, I was like, The Elven Kingdom? Like, what the fuck is this? I was told that there was a goblin emperor, like, excuse me? And then, where was my comment? I'm very curious. Yes, on page 26, my comment was, I was told there would be goblins. And then on page 28, about Maya, Okay, I do sympathize, but he's still not my goblin, I was promised. And then, on page 31, It is revealed that Maya had a goblin mother, and I was like, Oh, he's my goblin! Okay, I'm on board!

Sara 7:51

Or, or, and just hear me out, you could have read the blurb on the back of the book, which says, the very first line of it says, a half goblin, the youngest son of the emperor, has lived his entire life in exile.

Lilly 8:07

Meh. Then I wouldn't have had that delightful rollercoaster.

Sara 8:12

I suppose it's true, if that particular experience was what you were looking for.

Lilly 8:18

I mean, I didn't seek it out, but I didn't hate it. So, a goblin in this world is very different from, like, the Tolkien Goblin.

Sara 8:27

Yes. Elves, too, a little bit, although the difference there is not as much.

Lilly 8:32

That feels much more like a variation and less like an entirely different thing.

Sara 8:38

True.

Lilly 8:40

So how would you describe goblins other than dark skinned elves? Because that's kind of it.

Sara 8:47

That, that is, that is kind of how I would describe them, to be honest. I'm not sure if we get anything more distinctive from them

Lilly 9:00

We are told that they do have pretty significantly different facial structures. They're described as having bulging eyes a few times and like, something about like a,

Sara 9:13

Like, protruding jaws or something. And elves have very fairty faces.

Lilly 9:17

Yeah so there's definitely that. And I think they're, they tended to be shorter,

Sara 9:22

I think so.

Lilly 9:23

But not like dramatically so, But otherwise, very similar to elves. There's just another group of people in this fantasy world that live in a neighboring empire, I guess, not kingdom, technically. And they don't get along. And you're like, well, duh, because this is a fantasy world and it's goblins and elves.

Sara 9:44

I mean, the, the empires get along okay ish, they're not at war or anything and you do see, half goblin, half elf characters on a fairly regular basis. Like, there is a lot of intermingling, but there's a lot of prejudice against the goblins, at least in the court of the Elven Empire.

Lilly 10:06

Yeah. But it's

Sara 10:08

is where all of the action occurs.

Lilly 10:11

much more of a I mean, it's a political struggle more than it is a you're my sworn enemy and I will murder you if I see you kind of

Sara 10:20

Yes. Yes.

Lilly 10:23

I loved that they had expressive ears.

Sara 10:29

That was cute.

Lilly 10:29

I loved that so much. Both elves and goblins were often described like their ears betraying their emotions in some way, or Maya, our main character, had to like, actively not let his ears betray that he was feeling upset or something, and I was like, oh.

Sara 10:49

I feel like that would be really hard to deal with. I mean, I have trouble, enough trouble just controlling my face. Like, I don't want to consider having to control, having to control my ears as well.

Lilly 11:01

I imagine it felt, feels like an extension of that.

Sara 11:04

I'm sure, but like, that's just one more thing.

Lilly 11:09

true. But it was awesome and fun.

Sara 11:13

It was fun, and I liked how it added a level To the interactions between characters, because even if they weren't saying things, like, you could, in some small way, assess their body language.

Lilly 11:25

Another really fun thing this book does is it plays with language. That's not wrong, but it's also not quite right. so the book of course is in English, but the way that it refers to language is Not in the way that English uses, well,

Sara 11:43

I mean, it has, it has its own kind of grammatical rules and structures.

Lilly 11:50

it's referring to grammar that we, the reader, are not seeing because it's grammar happening in a language that the book is not in

Sara 11:58

And for example, the formal use of we. Like the,

Lilly 12:06

The, the first person has a formal version, which is pluralized on the in, on the page

Sara 12:13

yeah, it's not just originally when so the story starts out with Maya waking up and being told that his father, the Emperor, and all of his half brothers have all died in a ship crash, and he is now the Emperor, and he starts immediately using this formal we, this, this formal plural first person. And I thought, wow, that's really quick for him to get used to using the royal we, right? I'm really impressed that he can remember it. And then as the book goes on, I realized that everyone does that. It's not just royalty it's just a thing of their society.

Lilly 12:53

And there are a few times when the prose or the narrative will. explain to the reader, Oh, in this case, that character was not using the formal you. It was clear that they were using the familiar plural you, for example. And so you'd get some extra dialogue tags in that sense, which it doesn't happen a whole Or, didn't happen to a distracting degree, at least.

Sara 13:21

No, but I appreciate it because I did sometimes get confused.

Lilly 13:25

Oh no, I loved it! No, I, I loved that it was explaining that to me, but it's not like every single time someone spoke, it then also explained what case they were using, yeah.

Sara 13:35

right. A lot of that just came from context clues. And sometimes the context clues came so late in the conversation that I did think that they had spent the entire time talking about a group of people and not just themselves. I'm specifically thinking of one character's experience in A, like, castle fortress. He's a courier and he was using we, and I was thinking that there was a group of couriers, but no, it was just him.

Lilly 14:03

yeah. There's also, and now this is English, you is the formal form and thou is the familiar form, which, you know, in modern English we've just dropped the informal and everyone uses the formal form and it's not really a thing anymore. But I loved that throwback, it was fun.

Sara 14:23

I, I really liked the way that Addison played with language.

Lilly 14:26

Yeah. That being said I think Maya is the only character whose name I know.

Sara 14:33

I know. A couple more. But I have to admit, when I first started reading this book, I was really like just burnt out on fantasy books and sci fi books in general. And you get kind of, you get kind of thrown into the deep end with a ton of names. And I was like, I just cannot, I'm not in the mindset for this book. I can't concentrate on these names. Like, I'm not going to remember anyone. And so I had a lot of trouble in the beginning not necessarily because of the book, just because of like what I personally was going through mentally, not that I was going through anything bad.

Lilly 15:07

Right, you were kind of burnt out.

Sara 15:09

yeah, I was just burnt out. But as the book progressed And I got more and more into it. I started to get characters and names straight and this book did kind of single handedly cure my fantasy reading book burnout.

Lilly 15:24

It was so sweet and delightful. I'm so glad that it fixed you.

Sara 15:29

Me too.

Lilly 15:30

But okay, but the names, not only were there a thousand names, there were also different endings for a name, depending on if you were, like, the family name had a different ending if you're talking about a man or a woman or plural. And then also, like, the first names had different versions depending on how familiar you were with. There was, so not only were there a thousand characters, there were a thousand versions of each name for each character. And I kind of had got the flow. Like, if you said a name, I could probably go, like, I think it's this person, and, like, figure it out. Or, like, when I was reading the book, The book gave you training wheels, and generally you could figure out who they were from just the first letter and context clues.

Sara 16:16

I could figure out who all of the main characters were, but there are a couple of very minor named characters in Maya's, like, House and his staff and I couldn't keep them apart.

Lilly 16:30

Oh no, but I was, I could be like, oh that was one of the staff.

Sara 16:33

Yes.

Lilly 16:35

The, the worst confusion I got into Probably, like the one that actually affected my understanding of the novel, was for the period of time when I could not tell his detective and his fiancé apart.

Sara 16:49

I never had that problem, I will say.

Lilly 16:52

were pretty similar.

Sara 16:54

They, they do start with a lot of similar letters. Yes.

Lilly 16:59

So, that was when she is first, not quite first introduced, because then it's very clear who they're talking about. But there's, there's one scene near the end. That first introduction that I was like, I had to go back and reread it once I figured out that I had gotten it mixed up. But I did it. I made it. It did not make me hate this book.

Sara 17:22

which is good because if you hated this book, I'd be really sad because I loved it so much.

Lilly 17:27

good.

Sara 17:27

It was so good. I really want to read, there's, I don't think there's anything else that strictly continues Maya's story, but there are a couple of books in the same world, and I really want to read them.

Lilly 17:40

And honestly, I love that. Maya's story is done. And if there was a sequel about him, I would feel kind of cheated.

Sara 17:49

I don't know if I would feel cheated, because I really enjoyed the day to day stuff that this book dealt with. Like, yes, it does have a couple of big events. So much of it. was small, episodic like interactions, that I would read a whole nother book of just that.

Lilly 18:14

I think that's fanfiction. I think you want fanfiction because

Sara 18:17

I want official published fan fiction.

Lilly 18:20

I went fanfiction.

Sara 18:22

Yes.

Lilly 18:23

Maya's character arc, I mean, he grows. He's like 18 or something. He's so young. He's suddenly the Emperor. And he has to go through that journey. And he does. I don't think it's a spoiler. The book has a happy ending. And it would undercut that, the high note that it ends on, I think. If it then just kind of slowly petered out in another book.

Sara 18:46

I disagree. But I think that, that I'm coming from it from a slightly different perspective. I agree that this book is self contained. Maya has a great character arc. He grows in it and I'm, I'm really pleased with the point that it ends on. But I do kind of view this as, I'm not going to call it cozy fantasy because I don't think it's cozy fantasy, but I think it's cozy fantasy adjacent. And. I don't mind if my cozy fantasy books don't have a plot, like, in the traditional sense.

Lilly 19:22

Yeah, so the reason, of course, why it's not cozy is that it is so sad.

Sara 19:28

That's, that's not really why I would call it not cozy, but it is sad.

Lilly 19:33

The sad moments are too sad for it to be overall cozy. I mean, it definitely has good vibes but yeah, no.

Sara 19:45

See, that is not why I would call it not cozy at all.

Lilly 19:49

But we have spoilery reasons for that true conversation.

Sara 19:54

yeah. Okay. We can, we can save

Lilly 19:56

Okay,

Sara 19:56

It

Lilly 19:58

well, is it a gas lamp fantasy? Because there are gas lamps and there are airships. And I think those are the two definitions of gas lamp fantasy.

Sara 20:08

might, it might be gas lamp fantasy or steampunk or whatever, whatever you want to call it. I'm not sure if there is a distinction between gas lamp and steampunk. Because yeah,

Lilly 20:16

I think one is more sci fi and one is more fantasy. But anyway

Sara 20:19

interesting.

Lilly 20:21

at least that's the definition in my head. I don't know if it's real.

Sara 20:24

That's not the definition in my head, but

Lilly 20:27

But I think this being set in an elven court supersedes the airships.

Sara 20:33

yes.

Lilly 20:35

And while the existence of airships are, I mean, that's how the previous emperor dies in an accident. they are important to the plot in that way. The book doesn't really revolve around that in any way at all.

Sara 20:51

Okay. So I'm going to bring up your theory. of genre.

Lilly 20:57

Good.

Sara 20:57

In that, the setting of this book is a gas lamp setting, but none of the other trappings are, therefore that's only one pillar of the genre of this book.

Lilly 21:12

I would agree with that completely. Well, were you shocked to find out that I loved my little goblin emperor with my whole heart?

Sara 21:21

I was not surprised, in the least both because he is a goblin and you do tend to like them, but also He's just really likable as a character.

Lilly 21:32

Ha, ha,

Sara 21:33

Yeah. He's just really nice

Lilly 21:35

His Goals and morals, I think, align with a very palatable, modern person.

Sara 21:45

and he's always trying to do his best. Like he's not a dick.

Lilly 21:48

Yeah, he's just always trying to make the right call, to what is my definition of the right call. So it was very easy to root for him. I was thinking, Why do I always love goblins? It's because they're the de facto fantasy underdog.

Sara 22:06

And I would say that Maya is the fantasy emperor underdog in this case too.

Lilly 22:12

Yeah, and I was then trying to think of a story where they are not the underdog, and we haven't found it yet. It would be really interesting to see that subverted, and I wonder if I would still love them as much. Maybe I would because it would be such an active subversion.

Sara 22:28

If you are listening to this and you have any recommendations that fall into that kind of like category, please let us know.

Lilly 22:37

Yeah, even if the goblins are the bad guys. I accept that goblins can be bad guys. I think there are now enough good goblin fiction. or fiction where goblins are good, where I can go back to, I can accept bad guy goblins again. Especially if they're thoughtful bad guys and not just the evil horde.

Sara 22:59

Yes. I think that's the difference, right? You, you want them to be, you want it to be a subversion of the tropes in some way, and just the evil horde is not subverting anything.

Lilly 23:10

right. Well, who should read this book, Sarah? If you I was about to say epic fantasy, but I don't think that fits. Classic fantasy, I think you said earlier, is better.

Sara 23:20

Yeah, I think, if you like classic fantasy this is a really good one to read if you are looking for something that has some of those epic fantasy moments, but has a much, like, softer, gentler vibe in general I think this is a good book to read.

Lilly 23:41

It's a very feel good book.

Sara 23:44

Yes.

Lilly 23:45

think that's what it is. Because even when it's sad, and it is sad, and there are characters who have very sad backstories, but the story that we are reading in this novel is very feel good.

Sara 23:59

I think ultimately it's a very hopeful book.

Lilly 24:01

Oh yeah, absolutely. He's the bridge building emperor. And if that's not an obvious metaphor, I don't know what is. And that is the name of the last chapter, but it's also the title of one of the big reviews, so I'm gonna call that not a spoiler.

Sara 24:19

Yeah, I don't, I don't think that is inherently a spoiler.

Lilly 24:24

This episode of Fiction Fans is brought to you by Fiction Fans.

Sara 24:28

That's us. We really appreciate our patrons because otherwise we fund this podcast entirely ourselves.

Lilly 24:34

Patrons can find weekly bonus content, monthly exclusive episodes, and have free access to our biannual zine, Solstitia. They also get to choose which books we read occasionally.

Sara 24:45

You can find all of that and more at patreon. com slash fiction fans pod. Thank you for all of your support.

Lilly 24:52

The remainder of this episode contains spoilers.

Sara 25:00

Okay. So now are we continuing our discussion of why it's not cozy fantasy?

Lilly 25:04

Yes.

Sara 25:05

That's not exactly because it's not. There,

Lilly 25:08

Yeah, I mean, the, the really sad moments where Maya is mourning his mother, and, like, all the child abuse? There's too much child abuse in this book for it to be cozy.

Sara 25:20

there is a lot of child abuse and I think that's a better argument against it being cozy than sad bits because you can get sad, like, introspective stuff and in cozy fantasy too, I

Lilly 25:31

Yeah, I was lumping the child abuse in with the sad stuff.

Sara 25:35

I guess it's, it's sad in a different quality.

Lilly 25:40

Yeah, it's angry sad and not weepy sad.

Sara 25:43

Yeah. I think that for me, one of the things that, Big reasons that it's not cozy fantasy is that there are a couple of betrayals. I mean, pretty much for the most part, the Good and bad characters are very, very evident in the story, in the narrative and there's no surprises except for one of Maya's bodyguards participates in a coup against him. But I think that and like the fact that there are coups and, and assassination attempts and death does ultimately make it not cozy for me.

Lilly 26:25

Yeah, that's fair. There is that sense of danger. And, honestly, the anxiety. of the beginning of the book when Maya first arrives to the court and everyone hates him. Like, he is just this kid in over his head, completely alone. There's, like, one stranger who's been kind of reasonable. So he's like, Welp, guess you're my one advisor that I trust now.

Sara 26:52

Yeah, I felt really bad for him because he was so over his head and, and so many people just did not like him because of his heritage and the things that they had heard his father say about him, which was totally untrue. But his father was a dick.

Lilly 27:09

And he's completely unprepared. He was never supposed to take the throne. He was in exile pretty much his entire life. And so, He's missing a lot of just basic, I'm gonna refer to it as common sense knowledge. Not common sense to us, but like, for the people in the court, it was.

Sara 27:29

Yeah, he's got kind of a very haphazard education. It was whatever his abusive guardian decided to teach him, which was not sufficient and not thorough and not comprehensive. So he's, there's so much that he has to catch up on, and so much that he misses in the beginning just because he doesn't have that background knowledge.

Lilly 27:51

Yeah. And this might be me bringing my weird baggage to the book, but I think there are some interesting parallels, and made the book very sympathetic and accessible. Like, emotionally accessible. In just the idea of being able to, at a job where you're in over your head. And I know being emperor is different from having a job. But a lot of the things that he struggles with, like not understanding the things that people are talking about around him, and knowing something is expected of him, but not knowing exactly, like, how to handle that, or yeah, just not understanding the expectations people have of him. All of that, I think, translated very well to feeling out of water in any employment situation. So just because he was the emperor didn't make him unrelatable.

Sara 28:43

I mean, I think that anyone who has grown up and, exited the school system into their first adult office job can, relate to some of what he goes through because I don't necessarily think our school system prepares us for the real world.

Lilly 29:03

Well, no.

Sara 29:04

So, so it, it did feel very familiar in that sense. Yeah.

Lilly 29:09

Yeah, and so that was something that struck me, like around halfway through the book. Then I thought it was very silly comparing Like, my temp job's to be the temperer, but, you know, it was there.

Sara 29:25

I mean, I don't, think it's that silly. maybe it would be silly if you were comparing it to being a real world emperor, but I feel like fantasy emperor as described in this novel has a larger scope than. Any kind of temp job, sure, but, very similar, like, day to day kinds of activities. Correspondence, answering emails going to meetings, not understanding what they're talking about at first.

Lilly 29:57

And being too embarrassed to ask,

Sara 29:59

being too embarrassed to ask.

Lilly 30:01

the word temperer is now in my head, and I cannot figure out how to gracefully work it into the conversation. So, I'm giving that gift to you,

Sara 30:12

Thank you. I, I love that, but I also don't know what to do with that.

Lilly 30:20

but it's there, and it's good.

Sara 30:22

Yeah, yeah, except Maya is not, he's, he's temp to hire,

Lilly 30:28

Yeah, yeah, no,

Sara 30:29

temp to permanent.

Lilly 30:30

a temperer does not describe him. Temporer describes the feeling of being a temp and in completely over your head and does not make sense with those words combined at all, but It does if you've read this book.

Sara 30:43

Yes.

Lilly 30:44

Back to what you were saying earlier, though, about one of his bodyguards betraying him. I'm honestly glad somebody did.

Sara 30:53

I, yes, yes and no I'm glad that someone did just because I was expecting it. I wouldn't have minded if no one had because he's a precious baby angel who didn't deserve it. But but I was expecting his, advisor, secretary, yeah, to be the one who betrayed him.

Lilly 31:15

I was waiting on him for a while. But I guess, maybe not betrayal, but I really wanted literally any character to end up not being on the side that they were introduced as.

Sara 31:30

Mmm, I think that's valid.

Lilly 31:33

could have gone the other way. We could have found out that someone who seemed mean was actually nice.

Sara 31:38

That Lord Shavar, who was the chancellor or whatever, was actually, like, on the level.

Lilly 31:44

Yeah.

Sara 31:45

And not undercutting him the entire time, yeah. The, the characters are pretty cut and dry in this.

Lilly 31:52

Like, if, if they were introduced that they gave Maya a stink eye, that means they will try to murder him later. Like, there's absolutely no nuance whatsoever.

Sara 32:04

Except kind of for his fiancé.

Lilly 32:07

That's okay. But I think that was approached from the angle that she thought that he, well, she felt forced into the marriage because she didn't have a choice, which was true. You

Sara 32:20

I mean, he didn't have a choice either.

Lilly 32:22

At least he got to pick which lady, though.

Sara 32:24

He did get to pick which lady, but he didn't want to get married at all.

Lilly 32:27

True. I did like how this book, I mean, this is part of the feel good stuff, right? Maya going on a contemplative journey about how women should be able to have jobs. Sometimes it's just nice to hear people agree with me,

Sara 32:44

I mean, as he points out, he was someone who the world didn't see worth educating. So, he feels very strongly about that. there's a line that I'm paraphrasing very, very badly when I say that. But I really liked that line in that moment. Where he is talking with his half sister.

Lilly 33:02

She had been engaged to an absolute douchebag who, surprise, surprise, ends up being a murderer.

Sara 33:09

who remains an absolute douchebag

Lilly 33:11

and one of Maia's first actions as emperor is to go, Well, nothing's in writing, so we're gonna start negotiations over from the very beginning and hey, you go study astronomy or whatever.

Sara 33:24

is what she wanted to

Lilly 33:26

Yeah, well, yeah, he didn't just decide she was an astronomer. And she's suspicious of him, because she's like, that's A, not how it works, and B, what?

Sara 33:36

Yeah. And you know, I can understand her suspicion because it's a very silly thing to do just in terms of like political alliances. Her marriage, is valuable. But I'm glad that he does it.

Lilly 33:51

Oh yeah, that's, again, part of the feel good thing, right?

Sara 33:56

absolutely.

Lilly 33:57

And so, when he first meets his fiancée, she's very cold. She's not antagonistic, but she's very distant. she realizes that who he is is actually What he seems to be. And then, she warms up to him, and we find out that she's some kind of like, strange warrior princess. She keeps threatening to challenge people to duels over his honor, and it's very cute.

Sara 34:25

I kind of loved that.

Lilly 34:27

She was great.

Sara 34:28

I really liked her. I wasn't sure about her in the beginning just because she is so cold. But as we get to know her and as she realizes that Maya is not a douchebag and she kind of warms up to him she shows more of her personality and she was just so much fun.

Lilly 34:46

She was. I liked her a lot. There, I'm not gonna call it, it's kind of a romance. ARC? I mean,

Sara 34:54

I wouldn't call it a plot, but maybe a subplot. I mean, it's not,

Lilly 34:59

very light. It's,

Sara 35:02

it's, it's not really a romance, because I don't think that they're in love by the end of the book. But these are two people who are engaged whether they like it or not, and they're starting to at least be friends with each other. Like, they, they want a friendly marriage, even if they never fall in love.

Lilly 35:25

it felt like they were on an ARC to become true life partners.

Sara 35:30

Yeah.

Lilly 35:31

Instead of just a purely, like, awful political arranged marriage. Which is kinda how it started. You know, what can you do?

Sara 35:40

I mean, they're, they're both making the best of the situation.

Lilly 35:43

Yeah. And like, if you're gonna be saddled with someone, might as well be someone that you like.

Sara 35:49

Yeah, I mean, you gotta, you gotta do your best.

Lilly 35:53

thing that kind of bothered me through the entire book, is how much So, Maya has four bodyguards. They're in two groups of two. There's one to guard his body and one to guard his mind, the like, magic usery one. And he so strongly favors the first set that he was introduced to. And I kind of was okay with it at the beginning of the book. because they were two of the very first people he was ever introduced to in the court. He was definitely the only, the first two people he was introduced to that he knew had to have his best interests in mind.

Sara 36:37

Although, do they really, given that one of his second set betrays him? Laughter.

Lilly 36:42

Okay, but, As far as he knew. And so they were like his safe people when he was entirely out of his depths. And then the second set is introduced and he's like, oh god, suddenly new, new people. I have to get like, familiar with them all over again. They haven't seen me at my absolute worst. And so I have to actually kind of keep up some kind of appearances for them. And so I was like, okay, I can get why he prefers the first set at the beginning. But then. A little ways into the book, he's still referring to the first set as his, like, the people he's known the longest. And I'm like, by 12 hours? It's not really that impactful anymore, and it does not make sense to me. Like, you are spending the same amount of time with all four of these people. And I think I'd be okay with it if the book described him as, like, clicking with them better. But the book just never describes the other two. And I that just seemed, like, A weird, not plot hole exactly, but, well, yeah, I'm gonna think he gets along with those, those set better if they're the only ones I ever see him interacting with.

Sara 37:56

I mean, I both agree with you and disagree with you, because by the time we get kind of that far into the book he's decided that he can't be friends with any of them, and so the book spends a lot less time describing his bodyguards and his interactions with his bodyguards in general.

Lilly 38:14

But he still is constantly saying how he prefers the first two.

Sara 38:18

He doesn't say it that much.

Lilly 38:20

did! And the, one of the first two are the ones who was like, We can't be friends. So like, that doesn't make any sense. And, by the end of the book, it was one of the second set that almost died for him. And like, if that's not a bonding moment, I don't know what is. And after that, after that, there is a moment where he's huddling for warmth with his bodyguards because they're doing the astronomy thing with his half sister and it's cute. And he says he's glad it's them, because if he was going to be huddling into someone's body heat, he'd rather it be one of those two. Like, why, at the very end of this book, do you still have this strange obsession with your first two bodyguards? Don't get it. It was not backed up by the text. Or, where it was felt forced.

Sara 39:15

it did not bother me.

Lilly 39:17

Bothered me immensely. I just felt

Sara 39:19

can, I can tell.

Lilly 39:21

bodyguard that started with a T, because that's his name. The bodyguard whose name started with a T, not the one who betrays him, the one who gets grievously injured.

Sara 39:32

Get, he doesn't get grievously injured. He just gets knocked out.

Lilly 39:35

he gets magically knocked out. And he's like recovering from it for days.

Sara 39:39

He gets a concussion.

Lilly 39:41

Yeah, it's not good.

Sara 39:42

It's, it's not good, no. But he's not the only one who gets injured in the pursuit of like bad people.

Lilly 39:51

No,

Sara 39:53

Be Beard puts himself in front of a knife. When when his half sister's ex-fiancee tries to kill Maya.

Lilly 40:02

half brothers, ex fiance. But yes,

Sara 40:06

No, half, half sister's ex-fiancee

Lilly 40:09

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Cause Cheva, Cheva, Chevjjjjjjjjjjj, was one of the first of the coup, yeah. The one whose name starts with an S H.

Sara 40:20

No, it started with a, oh, the wife's name started with the S H, yeah.

Lilly 40:26

And yes, I accept that as a bonding moment. Like, he should be close with all of his bodyguards at this point. Just from a, like, you've been there through thick and thin kind of way.

Sara 40:37

should be close with all of his bodyguards. I am not disagreeing there. But it's not like we only ever see the one guy in the second pair put his life on the line for, you know, Maya.

Lilly 40:50

No, absolutely, but like so then why does he favor the one whose name starts with a B so much?

Sara 40:58

Well, he doesn't, I don't think that he necessarily in the beginning favors Beshelar, because he thinks Beshelar judges him all the time. He likes Kala. Yeah.

Lilly 41:06

who was the one who said we can't be friends, so it still doesn't make sense?

Sara 41:11

No, he, he, Kala said that, that the arch prelator, or whoever was in charge of The bodyguards said that they couldn't be friends.

Lilly 41:19

said he agreed.

Sara 41:20

Yeah, but he, he clearly was reluctant. I mean, he was not happy about having to say that.

Lilly 41:27

Anyway, of all of my things I've complained about in books over the years, it's a minor one, but it came up. Throughout the novel, and every time I did, I was like, Whyyyyy?

Sara 41:39

See, that didn't bother me, but, and we've talked about this a little bit, but the one thing that did was that Kesevet, his secretary, never betrays Maya. And there is no reason given for that whatsoever. Like, I do kind of wish there had been at least a throwaway line explaining why he was so loyal. Because he was not he had no relationship with Maya previously. He was not loyal to Maya's mother. Like, he's just basically a random courier who was in the right place at the right time.

Lilly 42:10

Yeah,

Sara 42:12

And I'm like, why? Okay, I can understand that you're really confident, fine, I don't have any problems with that, but why are you so loyal?

Lilly 42:21

and I mean, there's a hundred reasons that it could be, but none of them are on the page.

Sara 42:26

Right, like, I just, I

Lilly 42:27

we get

Sara 42:28

I just wanted something, some very minor statement somewhere.

Lilly 42:33

one thing that we get is they bond over both hating Savette's ex boss.

Sara 42:40

Yes.

Lilly 42:41

it. That's all we really have.

Sara 42:43

Yes. But that's, that was not quite enough for me.

Lilly 42:48

but I mean, Maya stuck up for the little guy. I understand. The little guy then having loyalty to him, but it should have been said somewhere. I agree.

Sara 43:00

Yeah, I mean, it, like, it made sense but also, I don't know, I just, I just wanted a little more there.

Lilly 43:08

There was, I feel like I noted something, one second.

Sara 43:11

I mean, he, he talks about why he hates The half sister's ex fiancé,

Lilly 43:17

Mm hmm.

Sara 43:19

and that's kind of as far as we get.

Lilly 43:21

I found off topic. Nerevus was the other one who I thought might betray him.

Sara 43:28

Oh, the Shavar's son.

Lilly 43:30

Nephew.

Sara 43:31

Nephew, yeah. Yeah, I was expecting that betrayal, too.

Lilly 43:36

No, okay. I didn't actually. Didn't actually put anything down about Sovet, yeah.

Sara 43:42

because there's nothing. He's just loyal the entire time.

Lilly 43:47

I think maybe what I was thinking of, I did have a comment that was, oh, for fuck's sake, finally. Which was when Maya, like, goes on a rant at Kala and Gard, whose name starts with a B.

Sara 44:01

Beshalai?

Lilly 44:02

That's the one. Still not gonna remember it.

Sara 44:06

Just call him Beshamel.

Lilly 44:08

Oh, there you go. I will admit that his secretary was civet in my head the whole time. Anyway so Kala and Beshamel, goes on a rant that's like, We can't be friends, but what you mean by friends isn't, like, we can be some kind of friends, we can be, like, friendly and trust each other, and goes off. Which was, like, what my comment had been in the book every time it came up, was, like, they're clearly using different definitions of the word friend. This is a stupid thing to have angst over. He's a kid. I get it.

Sara 44:40

He's, he's 18 and he's been isolated his entire life.

Lilly 44:44

Yeah.

Sara 44:45

Isolated and abused.

Lilly 44:47

So, the idea of having different types of friendships, I understand being new to him.

Sara 44:53

Yeah.

Lilly 44:54

Oh, he got to meet his Grandfather on his mother's side,

Sara 44:59

That was nice. I did like seeing the Grand Avalar.

Lilly 45:02

the Goblin, well, the Goblin Emperor, but like, the Emperor of the Goblin Empire, Goblin Emperor.

Sara 45:08

Yeah.

Lilly 45:10

I was really worried, because we find out that he is going to be visiting fairly early on, and then he finally gets there. And I was like, alright, we're gonna kick Maya while he's down? What's going on? But then he was great,

Sara 45:23

Yeah. I mean, I was worried that he was going to be an ass too, but he turns out to be not.

Lilly 45:29

because goblins are awesome. Maya finds out that his aunts on his mother's side are all badasses.

Sara 45:35

Yes.

Lilly 45:36

One of them's a pirate queen, or something. It was great.

Sara 45:42

Basically, yeah. I really liked learning about Maya's family. On that side, I should say. I mean, I guess we learn a little bit about his family on his father's side too, but

Lilly 45:52

and they don't all suck. Actually, his His nephew, technically his heir, is a very sweet kid, and I liked that they stood up for each other.

Sara 46:05

yeah, I was not expecting so the first coup attempt kind of hinges around the nephew, Idra's mother, thinking that Idra would, like, be willing to take the throne, and so she and the

Lilly 46:24

Lord Chancellor, yeah.

Sara 46:26

yeah, Shavar, yeah essentially kidnap Maya in the middle of the night with the help of one of his bodyguards and say, you have to abdicate the throne or else. And Maya says, well, okay, but bring Idra here so that I can talk to him about it. And for some reason they agree to that. And Idra goes and is like, Now, fuck that. I don't want, I don't want to be Emperor. Like, if, if Maia's only four years older than me, why do you think that he does such a bad job, but I would do a good job? Like, that doesn't make sense, and he refuses, and

Lilly 47:06

He totally f s through his mother, cause she's like, You, it should be you! And he's like, Mom, you clearly just want power. Like, what are you doing?

Sara 47:16

Yeah, so he's, he's awesome and I liked him a lot, and he Also, talks to Maia a little bit about his father, who is one of Maia's half brothers, and, you know, says that I think that my father would have really liked you, and, I think, given the things that we know about Idra and his assessment of character, like, I'm willing to believe him in that.

Lilly 47:38

Well, he likes Maya, so clearly he's right.

Sara 47:41

Obviously.

Lilly 47:43

So, after Idra's mother gets killed because she sure did try to Or no, she gets

Sara 47:50

she doesn't get killed, she gets exiled, yeah.

Lilly 47:53

Maia adopts Idra and his siblings?

Sara 47:57

Brings them into his household anyway.

Lilly 48:00

That's adopt I mean, okay, he's not like their stand in parent, but he's definitely their guardian, I would say. He's not raising them.

Sara 48:08

he's not raising them.

Lilly 48:09

It was a little weird that the kids were so chill with their mom being sent away, but the book kind of explained it because they were asking for their nanny,

Sara 48:19

Yeah, I mean, the book totally talks about that, because the book makes it clear that she was a very absentee mother. She didn't care about her children, and didn't really love them, and so they have more of a relationship with their tutor and their governess.

Lilly 48:35

So he has, not a bunch, there's like three kids, in, ranging in age from like 8 to 14 or something

Sara 48:43

Yeah, Idris is 14 and I think the two girls, one is 8 and one is 10 or something like that.

Lilly 48:52

And then later, after the other murder attempt, I guess the first one's technically, they want him to resign.

Sara 49:02

I mean, he's, he's pretty sure that if he did abdicate, like they say that they'll send him to a convent, basically. Like,

Lilly 49:10

whatever that

Sara 49:11

yeah, a monastery.

Lilly 49:13

you go.

Sara 49:14

That was the word I was looking for. They say that they'll send him to a monastery, but he's pretty sure that Shurian, or whatever his brother's wife's name is, yeah. That she would find some way to kill him, eventually. But it's not an out and out murder attempt.

Lilly 49:32

Well, the second, I would say, kerfuffle of the novel is a murder attempt. After that all shakes out, the people are killed after, or like, executed after that, I believe.

Sara 49:45

Well, the person who attempts to do the murdering, whose name starts with a T, he's the half sister's ex fiancé he gets killed in the process.

Lilly 49:58

There we go. He is, he is dead at the, by the

Sara 50:01

yeah. Kala, Kala kills him via magic.

Lilly 50:06

Maya has to figure out what to do. Well, no, it must have been his, the fiancé's father who did it then, because there's a bunch of children, again, without parents at the end of that.

Sara 50:16

No, so those are, those are the, the fiancé's siblings, I think. Who, that Maya has to figure out

Lilly 50:26

There's more kids he has to figure out what

Sara 50:28

Yeah. But I'm, I'm pretty, I'm pretty sure that they're the siblings of the guy who attempts the murder.

Lilly 50:33

so there's the guy who attempts the murder, and then we find out that his dad was the one who engineered the death of Maya's father.

Sara 50:45

he was the one who engineered the death of Maya's father.

Lilly 50:47

his, but the fiancé, whose name starts with a T. His dad was involved in something, right? Or was

Sara 50:54

No, it was just him.

Lilly 50:55

it was just him?

Sara 50:56

It was just him.

Lilly 50:57

Oh, well, his name changed like three times, so I thought he was more than one

Sara 51:01

It, it did not, it did not change.

Lilly 51:03

like the endings change, though.

Sara 51:06

No, the, the title changes when you address them, but not the name itself.

Lilly 51:11

The suffixes definitely change at points in this book,

Sara 51:16

I don't think it's for the names themselves though, I think it's the title, it's the first bit of their name.

Lilly 51:22

whatever it is.

Sara 51:24

But it was, it was all him.

Lilly 51:26

alright, well

Sara 51:27

It was, it was just him.

Lilly 51:28

After that, there were kids. How's that? And where I'm trying to go with this is Maya's trying to figure out what to do with him. And like, he has a, for a moment, he has a horrible vision of his personal house just filling up with the children of his enemies. And I was there, over here reading the book like, yes, yes, yes, yes. Give me Orphanage for Douchebags Children.

Sara 51:57

I didn't want that for Maya because Maya didn't want that. And I personally would hate it too. But I really liked the vision of it.

Lilly 52:06

too. And his solution for them was great and, you know, very considerate and everything. But I was like, that's the sequel I would read. Like family hijinks of this poor bedraggled young man trying to manage just like all of the orphans of his enemies.

Sara 52:28

See, I mean, I would read that too. Like, I'm not saying that a hypothetical sequel has to involve a lot of, like, big events.

Lilly 52:37

I think what I'm saying That there shouldn't be a direct sequel, right? Anything that I'm glad that the other books in this universe are kind of separate. So, yeah.

Sara 52:53

It doesn't need to be a direct sequel, but I just, I want more of the world. I want more of Maya. Like, I want more of his relationship with his fiancée. I I don't know. I just want more of everything. I liked it a lot.

Lilly 53:09

It was a really good book. Despite all of the sad parts, it leaves you feeling very good.

Sara 53:17

Yeah. And even the sad, I mean, I feel like even the sad parts, and definitely all of the violent parts get handled, not, I guess not handled in the case of the sad stuff, but, like, get covered and discussed on the page so quickly and then things move on that it doesn't linger on anything.

Lilly 53:41

Yeah, yeah, I would agree with that. Overall, very good book. Very glad we read it. Not lots of goblins, but lots of goblin on the page.

Sara 53:53

Yes.

Lilly 53:54

Even if it is a very different version of goblin. Still counts.

Sara 53:57

Still counts. I think this book firmly fits in our goblin era.

Lilly 54:02

Absolutely. Thank you so much for listening to this episode of Fiction Fans.

Sara 54:10

Come disagree with us. We're on Blue Sky, Instagram, and TikTok, at FictionFansPod. You can also email us at FictionFansPod at gmail. com,

Lilly 54:20

If you enjoyed the episode, please rate and review on Spotify and Apple Podcasts, drop a comment on the YouTube video, or follow us wherever your podcasts live.

Sara 54:30

or you can do all three of those things. We also have a Patreon, where you can support us and find exclusive episodes and a lot of other nonsense.

Lilly 54:38

Thanks again for listening, and may your elves always be defeated.

Sara 54:43

Bye!