Murderbot: Artificial Condition by Martha Wells

Your hosts read Artificial Condition, book two in the Murderbot series by Martha Wells. Lilly struggles with pronouns, but they still manage to talk about casting for the upcoming tv show.

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Thanks to the following musicians for the use of their songs:

- Amarià for the use of “Sérénade à Notre Dame de Paris”
- Josh Woodward for the use of “Electric Sunrise”

Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 4.0 License

Transcript

Lilly 0:03

Hello and welcome to Fiction Fans, a podcast where we read books and other words too. I'm Lily

Sara 0:10

And I am Sarah, and today we will be discussing Artificial Condition by Martha Wells, which is the second book in the Murder Bot diaries series.

Lilly 0:21

and I just realized that I thought we should watch the trailer together before we started recording, but I guess we will just pause at some point and the listeners will never know.

Sara 0:32

Do we, do we want to rewatch the trailer then?

Lilly 0:35

I haven't seen it yet.

Sara 0:37

Oh, you haven't seen it at all

Lilly 0:39

You posted it. It's in our discord, but I have not

Sara 0:42

It is, yes. I did post it.

Lilly 0:46

Yeah, no, not Not on you at all.

Sara 0:49

I'm pretty sure I sent it to you individually as well.

Lilly 0:51

Yes. This is purely my fault. But before we get to that conversation, our quick five minute intro, what's something great that happened recently?

Sara 1:01

Something great that happened recently. So this starts off with a not so great thing. But last month my parents lost their old pug buddy. He was 15, his hind end was paralyzed and he'd been, you know, going along. Okay. And then he just had a really rapid decline and so they had to put him to sleep. And that's obviously very, very sad and they were very heartbroken about it. But they did just adopt a rescue from the Berkeley Humane Society named Crumpet, who is very sweet and I love her.

Lilly 1:38

You sent me some pictures and a video I think also of crumpet and she is adorable.

Sara 1:45

She is, she's a sweetie. She met the pugs for the first time yesterday. There was a little, you know, tension there, which is understandable. Yeah. Normal, normal dog stuff. She's still settling into her house and now they're these two strange dogs. But I think they'll get along okay. And she is she's really sweet.

Lilly 2:06

I cannot wait to meet her. My good thing is that I got vaccinated today. I tried to get vaccinated back when the measles like became a thing again, and we went to our pharmacy and we were like, Hey, this is a thing again. We got a text saying You have measles vaccines, gimme our. Pharmacy said, no, you've had your vaccine too recently. It would've been like eight out of 10 years. Fuck off. Why did you listen to our marketing? So I was a little mad, but then recently I had a titer teacher. I don't know what the right pronunciation is. I had a test done to see if I'm actually you know, still vaccinated for stuff. And it turns out that no, I wasn't worst. I told you so of all time. So,

Sara 2:58

I would, I would say the worst would be if you actually had caught measles and figured it out that way. But

Lilly 3:04

second worst, I

Sara 3:05

second

Lilly 3:06

of all time. Yeah, we had our doctor write a note that was like, I do recommend that Lily have this vaccine based on this test result. And then the second time we went back, we went back. They didn't even ask. They were just like, yeah, okay.

Sara 3:21

I'm glad that A, you got vaccinated and b the second time the people were less annoying about it.

Lilly 3:29

yeah, much less annoying. So finally got that done. Who knows what I've been running around with. I mean, as you said, I haven't gotten the measles, so it's fine, but apparently my vaccine against the chicken box had also expired, so I'm redoing that too.

Sara 3:44

Also, a good thing to get redone.

Lilly 3:46

Yeah. Yep. So I got that. Am I gonna be so as fuck tomorrow? Probably, but worth it.

Sara 3:54

I mean, if it means that you won't get the measles or chickenpox,

Lilly 3:59

Yeah.

Sara 3:59

then yes, worth it.

Lilly 4:00

Yeah. What are you drinking tonight?

Sara 4:03

This is entirely off theme, but I'm drinking red wine. It's, it's gray, and I just felt like it was a good day for red wine.

Lilly 4:14

that sounds lovely. I went too far on theme because I was thinking, okay, murderbot, aggressively non-human, what would it drink? I ended on either gasoline or hot sauce. Those were my two options. Didn't wanna drink either of those, so I got the cheapest shooter at the grocery store, which is r and r, and I can't sip this. Sarah, I made a mistake.

Sara 4:46

That yeah, that does sound like a problem.

Lilly 4:49

I, I don't actually know what I'm gonna do. I have it right here. I poured it into a very fancy little glass. It doesn't deserve this. It is gasoline.

Sara 4:58

it does not deserve that glass. I'm surprised you didn't go for like a bourbon or something, which is sweet, you know? But I feel like that can be more often compared to is that a bourbon?

Lilly 5:14

No, it's

Sara 5:14

You're okay. But I feel, I feel like one could make the argument that any kind of whiskey is gasoline. I suppose that's what that is. If it's Canadian, Canadian whiskey, I'm assuming.

Lilly 5:27

Yeah. So I I specifically went for just the cheapest alcohol their little like. One serving bottles.'cause I figured that would be the closest to gasoline. And I think I'm correct. I think it is.

Sara 5:41

Probably, but, but also I feel like there was a miscalculation because you do presumably want to drink the drink for the recording

Lilly 5:51

Yeah. And not hate it.

Sara 5:53

or hate yourself.

Lilly 5:54

yeah, well yeah, I should have gotten something else, but I went too hard on theme and now I am dealing with those consequences, aren't I?

Sara 6:05

So it would seem,

Lilly 6:07

Yeah, I I'll go get a mixer for it in a little bit. Well, I'll probably end up with a whiskey and coke just because sugar and carbonation.

Sara 6:16

It's a time honored tradition.

Lilly 6:18

Yeah. Anyway, I, I was right. I stand by my decisions and now I must suffer through them. Well, have we read any non podcast books lately?

Sara 6:29

No, because this is one of our weeks where we are doing three recordings in about the span of seven days.

Lilly 6:35

Yep.

Sara 6:36

So no, I have certainly not read anything other than podcast books. I suspect the answer is the same for you.

Lilly 6:44

Absolutely not. So, moving right along, murder

Sara 6:48

Martyr Bot.

Lilly 6:49

artificial condition.

Sara 6:50

We did read the first book, which is All systems read on the podcast a long time ago. And, it was a long time ago, so I don't remember anything about the first book. But that's okay because this book introduces us mostly to entirely new characters.

Lilly 7:09

I felt the opposite. Not that I remembered anything. I agree with you there. I also did not remember anything, but I felt like there were enough references to things that happened in the first book that I felt pretty lost actually.

Sara 7:24

I agree that there were references to the first book. I mean, there, there definitely were references to the first book, but for me they were

Lilly 7:33

I.

Sara 7:34

kind of like scene setting. And so it, it didn't feel like they actually impacted anything about this story in particular. And so it didn't matter if I didn't remember the details beyond what was mentioned in the book.

Lilly 7:49

Okay, we'll see if the listeners agree. So this whole series follows murderbot, a self named security construct. A construct in this world is a being that is like partially clone and mostly robot parts. They're not considered people. They have governor drives that control their actions and they're very strictly regulated. The first book follows Murder Bot, our beloved title character on a security detail, although. They're just hired out by, sorry, not they, it I'm, Ooh, I'm never gonna get that right.

Sara 8:34

Murder bots, pronouns are it.

Lilly 8:36

I can't, I mean, I'll try. I'm gonna go to they and I'm not gonna feel that bad about it. Sorry, not sorry. If it was a real person who had a pronoun preference, obviously I would try harder, but like they're people, it is not people.

Sara 8:55

Murder bot is people. We'll have this discussion later. We don't tend to use it for people. It's true. That's just not how the English language tends to work. I have seen a couple of people who want to use that pronoun,

Lilly 9:10

I am aware that that's a thing, which is why I'm saying if, if I met a person who was like, Hey, this is my pronoun, I would try a lot harder for a fictional character. I like, I'm gonna forget

Sara 9:22

I mean, and, I I agree with you. It's easy to forget or it's, it's hard to remember that it is the right pronoun. So I like, I get that.

Lilly 9:30

just off the bat, sorry, I'm probably gonna call it, they, so it is on a security detail, by which I mean the company that owns it has. Hired them out. They don't, it doesn't really have, fuck, you know what's funny? This book has neo pronouns in it, and I'm fine with those. Not a pro, like, something about my brain, I don't know. Neo pronouns are fine because I have no associations with them.

Sara 10:00

Well, we are used to using it to refer to non sentient. You know, non-person objects.

Lilly 10:10

Yes.

Sara 10:11

So our, our brains are trained to think of it that way.

Lilly 10:14

But I, that feels dangerously close to the excuse of I don't know. They is plural. You can't use it singular. That's just how the language works.

Sara 10:25

it is a cop out. I mean, you're not wrong.

Lilly 10:29

Ugh. Okay. I'm just gonna correct myself every time I catch it, and this is gonna be a shit show of an episode. Murderbot is trying to run security on a mining operation for one faction. This faction is called Preservation Ox. There is an antagonist faction called Dealt Fall, and Murder Bot is mostly, you know, dealing with the conflict between those two factions. And then it turns out that the whole thing has been undermined by a third faction called Gray Christ. Gray Crisis. Gray. Chris?

Sara 11:12

Chris, I think, yeah,

Lilly 11:13

Yeah. Greg Kris and Greg Kris does some shit that is actually illegal feed from murder bots. Recording is used to expose that most of the people from Preservation Ox survive. Or maybe I shouldn't say most of the people, but most of the characters that we read about survive.

Sara 11:36

I think all of the main characters in all systems read Survive.

Lilly 11:40

Because Murderbot is good as at its job,

Sara 11:43

Because murder bot is good at its job.

Lilly 11:45

it is discovered during this process that Murderbot has disengaged its governor unit that makes it forced to obey human command. Murderbot has disengaged its governor unit or hacked it, I think is the phrasing used because in the past. Murder bot was forced to kill the people that it was supposed to protect. And it at this point does not know if it hacked its governor unit to stop some kind of rogue virus from forcing it to kill people or if it hacked its governor unit so that it could go murder people. Very conflicting. Murder Bot goes through the whole first book, keeping this very close to its chest. The people it's working with grow to trust it. It is eventually sort of not exactly let free, but given an a huge enough loophole that it is able to go and live its own destiny. And so at the beginning of this book, it is trying to go find out what the fuck happened. Before the first book events.

Sara 12:59

What was the grand murder spree that happened on a remote mining planet that gave Murderbot its name?

Lilly 13:08

Is this a trick question?

Sara 13:10

No, that's what Murderbot is trying to go find

Lilly 13:12

Oh, oh yes. Okay. You were asking me, I was like, Sarah.

Sara 13:18

No,

Lilly 13:19

Okay. Yes, I agree. So,

Sara 13:22

That that is, that is the impetus for this entire book.

Lilly 13:25

yes, and I took the time to stumble through that awful, clunky explanation because I feel like the three factions from Book One Dealt Fall Gr Kris and Preservation Ox show up a lot in the prose of this book. Murderbot talks about them, Those factions as examples for the people that it's running into. And I really needed a cheat sheet for like good guy, bad guy, secret worst guy. I needed that context. I,

Sara 14:00

So I agree that the names come up not infrequently. I didn't feel like I needed that context. Maybe I remembered more of the book than I thought. I don't actually think that's the case.

Lilly 14:15

It didn't

Sara 14:15

a lot of that summary was new for me.

Lilly 14:17

It didn't ruin the book. Not knowing those things. I just do kind of wish I had known them. I looked it up about halfway through this book and I was like, oh shit.

Sara 14:29

I mean, I wouldn't have minded rereading all systems read before this. I didn't, just because our timing was so tight. Like I just didn't have the time. But it would've been nice to have remembered a little bit more of Book one in the way that it's always nice to. Remember more of book one before you read book two?

Lilly 14:48

Do you think you could have gone into book two with nothing?

Sara 14:52

Well, that's, oh, you mean not having read book one at all?

Lilly 14:56

Right.

Sara 14:57

I actually kind of think you could. I don't think it's the ideal way to do it, to be clear, but I think that there are enough context clues to the ending of the first book that is murderbot kind of becomes assimilated into the crew of the Preservation Ox team. they give it some kind of freedom, it decides to leave them, and then goes off to find the circumstances of its, you know, past. And so you, you do get that context in the pages of this book, and I do think that's kind of all you need.

Lilly 15:38

Okay. Fair enough. I think it was rough. I wish I had reread or I wish I had at least read the Wikipedia summary first and not tried to power through that was a mistake. So I won't say, why are we reading Murder Bot now? Because it's a very, very good series. And I remember we, we read this with Friends Talking Fantasy, right?

Sara 16:01

Yes.

Lilly 16:01

Yeah. Way back in the day, years

Sara 16:04

Way back in the day. Mm-hmm.

Lilly 16:05

And I remember loving the book. We had a great conversation and so I've been looking forward to finishing it for a while, but timely as it is. We are now awaiting the Apple TV series featuring Murderbot.

Sara 16:23

Which I think releases next month.

Lilly 16:25

Oh shit. Is it that soon?

Sara 16:27

Yeah, I'm pretty sure. I know that we, like, we just got the trailer but I'm pretty sure that the TV show comes out. It is late May,

Lilly 16:37

Well, I'm gonna go get a can of Coke and then we are gonna watch the trailer and then we're gonna continue our conversation.

Sara 16:43

may 16, in fact.

Lilly 16:46

Okay. So question. Are we not hyped as fuck for that?

Sara 16:50

I don't know, honestly, like it looks like everything I should love, and yet the trailer just kind of leaves me cold and I don't know why.

Lilly 17:03

I also don't know why.'cause that looks very fun and delightful. I love that. It is silly, like it's clearly taking itself not too serious,

Sara 17:13

Martha Wells was really involved in the production, I believe is my understanding,

Lilly 17:18

Honestly. I think the problem is that Scars guard is too masculine to like pull off non-binary.

Sara 17:25

I think that is a problem. Yes,

Lilly 17:27

Now, if the show leans into the asexual aspect of Murder Bot, that might counteract that a little bit.

Sara 17:35

maybe. I mean, it's not that I don't think it's going to be good, like it looks like a fun show. I just am not hyped about it.

Lilly 17:44

Wild.

Sara 17:46

It is wild. Like I, I genuinely don't know why.

Lilly 17:49

So I knew that going into it, that you weren't super excited and watching the trailer, the fact that it included content from the soap operas that Murderbot watches instead of working, that is what got me. That's where I was like, oh my God, I'm on board. Are you gonna show me the garbage soap operas? Yes.

Sara 18:12

Honestly, I just want sanctuary moon. That's, I just want, I just want a TV show of that.

Lilly 18:18

No, I want it through murder bot's, eyes like art, a character we meet in this book, I only want to watch Sanctuary Moon through murder bot's perspective. Oh no. Am I art?

Sara 18:29

You might be art.

Lilly 18:30

Is that why I loved them so much? Oh, maybe.

Sara 18:34

be, I mean, I will ask your parents if I can use their Apple TV login.'cause I don't have one of my own.

Lilly 18:42

Absolutely. You definitely should.

Sara 18:45

yes. So that's, that's what I will do. Like I do intend to watch this TV show. I would like to see it succeed. And maybe I'll be more enthusiastic about it when it actually airs and I'm watching it again. It looks like a good show. I just, I don't know.

Lilly 19:01

I think it's scars. Gar. I don't know if Scars gard, not that he's not a great actor. I don't know if he was the right cast for Murderbot

Sara 19:09

Yeah. I, it would've been nice to see a non-binary actor.

Lilly 19:14

even just a less masculine one, like. Less mask. Yeah. I'm sorry, Eric from True Blood. No.

Sara 19:22

Eric from True Blood is secretly murder bot.

Lilly 19:25

Now if they make a reference to that or a joke, somehow I'm sold a hundred percent no notes. One thing that I thought was very interesting when the trailer came out and this sort of this series became part of pop culture chatter, there has been a lot of conversations around, oh shit, I always pictured Murder Bot, as, you know, fill in the gender identity. And I think there's something very charming that now this has not been a very scientifically rigorous survey, but in my experience it's usually people assign their own gender identity to murder bot.

Sara 20:05

Interesting because if I. my base instinct for Murder bot that I have to go against is calling Murder Bot. He, it's not, he, it's explicitly it. And non-binary. it has no gender.

Lilly 20:20

No sex either

Sara 20:22

and, and no sex. Yes. But I would not use she her pronouns for, for murder bot, possibly because of all of the violence I.

Lilly 20:32

Interesting. All of the hyper-awareness of others' emotional reactions to them, to it feels well. I think Murder bot is also probably neurodivergent.

Sara 20:47

I mean, I was gonna say that to,

Lilly 20:48

the, the stronger storyline there.

Sara 20:51

To me, that just feels autistic. or neurodivergent, that doesn't feel necessarily gendered

Lilly 20:56

that's fair. Although, I mean, nail in the coffin, nail in the gender coffin murder bot is hyped to have clothes with pockets and that is very fem coated.

Sara 21:08

that that is femme coded. I'll grant you that, but Murder Bot is still in it.

Lilly 21:13

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm not, I'm not saying that Murderbot is she her, I'm saying that being excited for pockets is femme coated it. No one can argue with that. But anyway, I just think that's, that's very interesting. Scars Guard is a choice. I think he's a very good actor. I do think that him being the face of Murder bot is going to, I. Affect that in the show. couldn't have gotten til the Swinton or someone, I don't know.

Sara 21:44

I appreciate in the show that they are very careful to use it pronouns, so the show's getting it right. I just don't necessarily think that they got the actor right, even though he's a good actor and maybe watching the show, all of my reservations will be blown away and I'll absolutely adore it and I'll want to go to conventions for Murder bot or something. I don't know.

Lilly 22:06

well, and I think we're probably showing our own bias here because mask presenting people can be non-binary.

Sara 22:13

That is also true.

Lilly 22:14

I just know that scars guard isn't

Sara 22:17

Yes.

Lilly 22:18

Alexander Scars guard specifically. I do think that there are things that the show can do to, I'm not gonna say fix. But you know, kind of fix that, like I said. Yeah, balance it out. Balance that out. Because in this book specifically, and probably in the first one too, although I don't remember,'cause it's been a couple of years, bot is very clear that it is asexual. It has no interest in sex. It is not attracted to any, any kind of person or being at all whatsoever.

Sara 22:57

It has no sex parts and it does not want sex parts.

Lilly 23:00

yes, absolutely. I now that doesn't feel bad, although I could see an argument that having an othered non-human robot entity being asexual is a bummer. But I think because Murderbot is the main character and so charming and beloved, that overrides that.

Sara 23:23

Yeah, I mean, I think it would be a bummer if Murderbot was the only ACE representation ever. But this is 2025. We do have more ace representation than just Murderbot. And also Murderbot is not a side character. It's not, you know, a sidekick mortar bot is the main character. And I think that that counteracts some of the bummer ness of it is a robot that gives us the ace representation.

Lilly 23:56

I also think the way the text treats that is very well, I mean, it's first person, so.

Sara 24:04

And, well, it's, it's also the fact that not all constructs. R Ace. I mean, we do, in this book specifically, again, I can't remember the first book, but we do see comfort units, which are basically sex bots. We don't know what they think of their function. But they do have sex parts. They have sex with people. So it's not like robot equals ace.

Lilly 24:34

Right. And the story treats it as very like Yeah, of course. Whatever, move it on, which I think helps.

Sara 24:42

Yeah. And it, it also, the world that Wells has built or the universe that Wells has built seems pretty inclusive in general. So it's not like reading this, you think that Murderbot is the only ace person in this universe.

Lilly 24:57

Right. That's a good point. And one of the main characters in this book, it goes by t tur, which I assume I pronounced correctly cause it's pronounced the way it's spelled. I think.

Sara 25:09

I am assuming so,

Lilly 25:09

Talk about things I've never heard out loud.

Sara 25:12

And t is also part of a like poly family unit essentially. So we see a lot of different

Lilly 25:20

yeah, that's where I started going with

Sara 25:21

a relationship.

Lilly 25:22

except that isn't really ace representations the opposite of that.

Sara 25:26

I, I, don't, I don't mean that that's ace representation. I just mean that we see in this book a lot of different ways of, having relationships with people, different, different ways of interacting with people and like forming relationships. So there's a, there's a wide variety of ways in which people interact.

Lilly 25:48

Rami is the character's name. I had to look it up. There's Pon, Morrow and Rami are sort of the three characters from that family unit who we see. They've hired Murderbot act as security. They don't know that Murderbot is Murderbot, but they get a lot more than they pay for.

Sara 26:10

They get a very good deal.

Lilly 26:12

A lot of this book has Murder Bot. I mean, the entire book is Murder Bot pretending to be a person, and that allows us to sort of engage with the text.

Sara 26:24

I would. I would quibble just a little bit there. I think it's murderbot pretending to be a human,

Lilly 26:29

Okay.

Sara 26:31

not pretending to be a person.'cause murderbot, whether or not it acknowledges that Murderbot is a person,

Lilly 26:37

Well

Sara 26:37

but Murderbot is not human,

Lilly 26:39

It's interesting you say that because I was rooting for my notes, which was a direct quote from the text. And you're right, Murderbot itself is very adamant that it is not a person

Sara 26:51

not a person or not a human.

Lilly 26:53

not a human. Although, yeah, I think that was the thing is I got that quote wrong actually when I wrote it down. Hold on, let me find the actual quote. And then I made fun of myself for getting the quote wrong and then got it wrong again. So that's great.

Sara 27:05

I mean, murderbot legally in the eyes of a lot of the universe, murderbot is an object and not a person. But Murderbot knows that it has, you know, self-determination and, self thought and, and Murderbot views itself as a person. And the, I think the reader views murderbot as a person.

Lilly 27:27

you're right. I was, I was reading off my direct quote too directly because it was the exact quote that I was like, I got that wrong. it would make it harder for me to pretend not to be a person. This is specifically after murder bot changed some of their physiology dramatically. They go on, they undergo surgery so that they can present as human, even though they don't want to be interpreted as human.

Sara 27:55

Yeah, they have dec It has decided that it is safer for it to be viewed as human than to be viewed as a rogue security unit. And it's probably right about that to be fair.

Lilly 28:08

Oh, well if the answer is yeah, rogue security unit, then yes. Part of its struggle is that one of its main defense mechanisms, while it was a regular security unit, was having people underestimate it and assume it is just a robot. Now that it needs people to see it as a person, a human, even in some cases, an augmented human is how it is sort of flying under the radar. That is such a switch in mentality and it struggles with that quite a bit.

Sara 28:43

Yeah, I mean, in the, so in the first book it feels like the themes of the first book are more around like

Lilly 28:55

Masking. There's quite a bit of masking. I remember literal masking, like while it has its helmet on, people can't see that its expression doesn't change. And so they don't get weirded out about that. And now in this book, there's a lot of like, do I have to look upset?

Sara 29:11

yeah. In, in the first book, it's trying to hide the fact that it has hacked, its, you know, governor module. And in this book it's trying to hide the fact that it's a security unit entirely,

Lilly 29:25

Yeah.

Sara 29:26

and so it, it's trying to blend in rather than trying to mask.

Lilly 29:31

There's this really fascinating aspect of the book where Murderbot hacks into the security cameras around where they are interacting with humans and watches its own interactions through those security cameras, through that third person perspective, and uses it to sort of compare themselves to the people around itself, to the people around it, and,

Sara 29:57

Yeah, it, it uses it to modulate its reactions.

Lilly 30:01

and there's a fascinating sort of dissociative distance to that,

Sara 30:07

Well, it doesn't wanna be human. It doesn't want to pretend to be human, and it kind of resents the fact that it has to

Lilly 30:14

but at the same time. Sorry, murder bot. You do genuinely care about these people. I know you don't want to, but you do. You just don't want to have to communicate through weird

Sara 30:29

Social cues.

Lilly 30:30

Yeah. Social cues. That's what you don't want. And that's pretty clear on the page that like what it is complaining about is not its genuine emotion. It is how it's expected to display its emotion.

Sara 30:42

Yes,

Lilly 30:43

I loved how many robot characters are in this book. I mean, okay, we've got some great people. Characters love them. They do some stupid shit. Murder bot saves their butts, whatever. the bots.

Sara 30:56

we do get some nice robot characters in this.

Lilly 30:59

Every single sweet, tiny tiny, I mean minor bot is personified in a way that I really enjoy. I have a problem with personifying everything, so I definitely latched onto this. But just from the aspect of hacking security cameras, murder bot introduces as I cozied up to it or I introduced myself very humanizing language, which is ironic when Murder bot is trying to convince us and itself that it is not human.

Sara 31:34

It's not human. It's a person and it treats the other bots as people.

Lilly 31:39

Okay? But murder bot also distinguishes between bot and human. This cop out third version of person is something that we are throwing on top of the story.

Sara 31:48

I mean, that's true. But also we're right.

Lilly 31:51

Well, yeah, exactly. But my point is that's only necessary because Murderbot is trying so hard to distance itself from personhood by saying, ah, I'm not like that. I'm not like them. I,

Sara 32:04

I don't think Murderbot is trying to distance itself from personhood, I think Murderbot has trouble with the fact that its version of personhood is pretty close to the human version of personhood.

Lilly 32:17

I mean, we can split hairs over that for a hundred years.

Sara 32:22

Probably.

Lilly 32:23

is definitely struggling over identity between robot and not robot. How's that?

Sara 32:28

Yes.

Lilly 32:29

Yeah. To the point where there is a security system in a small shuttle that Murderbot needs to like commandeer basically. And at the end of this Operation Murderbot deletes its memory and says, well, that's better than getting destroyed. Sorry, other bot that had gotten destroyed due to other circumstances, not by murder bot. And I think that is so, Hmm. Maybe that is murder bot projecting its own personhood onto other bots that it interacts with.

Sara 33:04

Well, so

Lilly 33:06

But this idea like self preservation is a very living instinct.

Sara 33:11

I do think that that's Murder bot projecting a little bit because the other bots don't have self-determination, and

Lilly 33:22

So

Sara 33:22

it sounds, pardon.

Lilly 33:24

so we're told.

Sara 33:26

Well, I was gonna say from the ways in which Murderbot interacts with them and talks to them, it, it does sound like they don't have that possibility either. Like they're not just constrained by, governor module that keeps them from self-determination. And so I would argue that they're not necessarily persons in the way that Murderbot is a person.

Lilly 33:51

So you are saying that I got suckered in by murder bots, extremely warm and empathetic personality.

Sara 33:59

Yes. I think Murderbot is projecting just a little bit when it comes to them.

Lilly 34:04

I, that I think is probably true, especially when you think about how, when dealing with its past where it had whole sections of its history deleted. And that's kind of the whole thrust of this book is Murder Bot trying to figure out what the fuck happened to it. So clearly it's upset that it had its memories deleted and then it runs into the security bot and it deletes its memories so that the security bot doesn't get destroyed later as a casualty of this confrontation and murder bot says like, well, better to have some memories deleted than to be destroyed. And that I think is very personal.

Sara 34:47

Yes, absolutely. Like Murder Bot is projecting its own experiences on these bots that don't necessarily have the self-awareness to think like that.

Lilly 35:00

Now we do have art.

Sara 35:02

And Art is a person.

Lilly 35:03

art is definite. I

Sara 35:04

Art has that self-awareness.

Lilly 35:06

I love art There are a couple of bots or I guess, yeah, construct is different from bot

Sara 35:13

Yes.

Lilly 35:13

book.

Sara 35:14

Although I'm not sure what art is because art is a giant ship.

Lilly 35:20

Okay, sure. If you talk about construct as having to have biological parts than, no,

Sara 35:24

Yeah.

Lilly 35:25

but art does have some kind of governor module. We know that,

Sara 35:29

Yes.

Lilly 35:30

well, we, I think, need to talk about art in the spoiler section. Not because their friendship isn't adorable, but because

Sara 35:39

It interacts with the themes in Spoily ways.

Lilly 35:42

The evolution of their relationship is too spoily. But who should read this book? Hey, I would call this sci-fi.

Sara 35:51

It is sci-fi. I would agree. Although you have a much stricter definition than I do,

Lilly 35:57

This has robots and outer space, and also explorations of identity and what it means to be a person, and that I would call sci-fi.

Sara 36:07

it basically is your dictionary definition of sci-fi.

Lilly 36:10

My dictionary. Yes. It's also in first person. Now. I think the first book had a better conceit for why it was in first person. Murderbot was basically writing to Dr. Mensa, who was a character in the first book. We don't get that in this one.

Sara 36:29

There's no conceit in this

Lilly 36:31

yeah, I don't care. It's good. And it's short. It's short enough that I don't have enough time to go. Hey, what, what? Who are you talking to?

Sara 36:41

It will be really interesting. So I don't know how long it will take for us to get there or if we will get there at all, but it will be really interesting to see whether or not your perspective changes when we get to, if we get to the novel murder bot books. Because there are a couple, I think the first like four are novellas and then the fifth book is a, full length novel.

Lilly 37:06

well, we got some reading to do then, don't we?

Sara 37:08

We do

Lilly 37:11

This episode is brought to you by fiction fans.

Sara 37:15

That's us. We really appreciate our patrons because otherwise we fund this podcast entirely ourselves.

Lilly 37:21

Patrons can find weekly bonus content, monthly exclusive episodes, and have free access to our biannual zine solstice.

Sara 37:29

You can find all of that and more at patreon.com/fiction fans pod. Thank you for all of your support, right?

Lilly 37:37

The remainder of this episode contains spoilers. Ah, I feel like, what's his face in that movie? Wilson

Sara 37:50

I don't know. I don't know the reference you're making.

Lilly 37:54

reference. I just wanna shout his name. That's all. That's the only reference.

Sara 37:59

I did love art though. Art was great.

Lilly 38:01

Yeah. Ooh, why do I feel like art is a he? Whereas Murderbot is perfectly non-binary. Probably just'cause of the name.

Sara 38:11

Maybe the name, the tendency to explain when no explanation is necessary. Does art mansplain?

Lilly 38:21

No, because when you are genuinely a supercomputer who knows more about stuff, that's not what mansplaining is.

Sara 38:28

It's true,

Lilly 38:29

Mansplaining is only when the other person knows more than you and you explain it anyway.

Sara 38:35

yes. But Art definitely explains some things to murder bot that Murder bot does know.

Lilly 38:40

True, true. But that I, I would say overall it's not that bad.

Sara 38:46

No. And and that was not actually a serious question. I don't, I don't think that art mansplain, but I wonder if part of that might be what gives you the impression of art being masculine

Lilly 38:57

I, I just think it feels like art is short for Arthur.

Sara 39:01

also possible.

Lilly 39:02

I, I don't think it's that deep. I love how they're such good friends and then they start off saying, or Murder bot starts off saying that we're not friends. And then of course they're friends. Ah,

Sara 39:14

Art knows from the beginning that they're friends.

Lilly 39:17

art's like we're friends now and Murder Bot is like, what the fuck? I loved it so much.

Sara 39:24

I do really enjoy the evolution of their relationship. Like, it's very kind of forced in the beginning where Murderbot is like, you were this giant supercomputer that could write me out of existence basically if you wanted. So I am going to be nice to you because I feel like I have to for the sake of my existence. And then eventually,

Lilly 39:44

is that why it feels masculine?

Sara 39:47

and then, and then eventually it decides. Or it realizes that like it can rely on art for things and they hang out and they watch movies or TV shows together and they're just really cute.

Lilly 40:02

I mean, Murderbot is very vulnerable. It allows art to perform a surgical procedure on themselves and just that level of trust that they have gotten to, and I

Sara 40:18

Well, it doesn't trust are at the point where that surgery happens.

Lilly 40:24

that trust had not been earned, but of course, like of course it trusts art. It shuts down and allows art to experiment on it. Not experiment, but do wild medical procedures. That's trust, even if it's nervous.

Sara 40:39

I, would say that is a leap of faith. That's not necessarily trust.

Lilly 40:45

If it's faith, not trust, okay, we can, sure. It's faith, not trust. I think Murderbot would be real mad if you said it had faith.

Sara 40:54

No, I don't think it has faith in, in art. I think it is making a leap of faith that art will do what it,

Lilly 41:01

Well, what's the difference between that and trusting?

Sara 41:04

It, I don't know. For, for me in my head, there is a difference and I'm not sure I can define it. Maybe that's just me quibbling over words, but I, to me, there's a difference.

Lilly 41:15

Well, I would say that that's the turning point in their relationship because Murderbot is very hesitant over art. Art is saying, we're friends and Murderbot is saying, what the fuck? No, I don't know you. You don't know me. just watching TV together and I'm just picking out the episodes that I don't think there's gonna stress you out because I care about your emotional reactions. They're so cute. And then Murder Bot needs to have these procedures done so that it can blend in with humanity at least a little bit better. And at after that, when Art proves that it is trustworthy through that experience, then they're like bosom buddies. And I love it so much.

Sara 42:02

It is very cute. I hope that we get more art in later books. I have no idea. I've never read past this book. I had read this book before but I don't think I've read book three.

Lilly 42:12

Interesting. I assumed not because just from the first book to this book, the only character in common on the page is Murderbot. We hear a lot about past experiences and characters, but we don't see them. So I assumed art was just in it for this chapter, if you will. And that did kind of make all of the times where murder bot and art were talking about. Like, oh, and then hold onto my transponder. And I was like, I don't care about this. You're just tucking on my heartstrings. You can't fool me.

Sara 42:51

Except that maybe they can fool you.'cause I wouldn't be surprised if art comes back again. I don't actually know for sure, but

Lilly 42:59

I don't think art will ever be involved to the level that it is in this book. And if it is, I will eat a hat. I will go buy a hat and then eat it.

Sara 43:08

well now we have to just spend the next like six episodes reading Murder Bot.

Lilly 43:13

We do. So I can eat a hat. I didn't say never show up again, but it's never gonna be this involved because it is like. We get a star Ski and Hutch duo going on here.

Sara 43:24

It, it is quite involved in the action here. Like it provides backup for Murderbot when Murderbot goes on. Basically all of its adventures. And like it helps murderbot take care of its clients. It helps guide transporters. It does a lot.

Lilly 43:46

Yeah.

Sara 43:47

Murder bot would, murder bot would be dead without art in this book.

Lilly 43:52

art is the sidekick who is actually more powerful, but being a sidekick because it's bored and I love that dynamic. Like

Sara 44:02

Yes.

Lilly 44:03

it did make me wonder, so art is a research ship, which is why it art is so advanced and Murderbot hitches a ride on it. To go to this mining outpost

Sara 44:18

Not realizing how advanced this ship really is

Lilly 44:22

Yes, and art is like, oh, well, oh, oh, sorry. First of all, this was one of the things we were talking about earlier with the governor modules is when there are first, this friendship is first introduced, art is like, well, why would I fuck with you? Like, not exactly in those words, but that's what he meant. And Murderbot says you wouldn't, but anyone with a governor module can be forced to do things that doesn't want to do. And so bots without a governor or bots with a governor module can never be trusted. And art is like, but there's no humans here now. It's fine, bro. What are you worrying about? Which. I agree 100% with both sides of that conversation. Except it raises the question, where is art's crew?

Sara 45:20

Well, they, they talk about it, right? They say that they do research for like half of the time, and the other half of the time they use art for mining expeditions or for transport expeditions because they need the money.

Lilly 45:33

Okay, so art, just

Sara 45:36

art is just advanced enough that art doesn't need a, a human crew.

Lilly 45:41

of that. Sure. So Art flies out to this remote mining site and then can just hang out for two days and no one is like, where the fuck are you?

Sara 45:54

we do see art kind of getting around. Its orders quite a bit like it forges documentation from its captain and all sorts of things. So they might not realize that art. Gets to places as fast as art does

Lilly 46:11

Okay. Okay. That was something that was in the back of my head for most of this book though. I was like, you're a boat, you're on a schedule.

Sara 46:20

art is absolutely the high performer at work who doesn't work to its full potential because it knows that if it does, it will have to work harder.

Lilly 46:30

I, I, that is not what's on the page though, because the only reason why Art gets involved with Murder bot is because he's bored. I'm sorry. It's bored

Sara 46:42

Yes. But that doesn't mean, but, but that doesn't mean that my statement about, about art is wrong. It just means that art got bored.

Lilly 46:53

Yeah,

Sara 46:54

So art gets, art, gets bored and has these little, you know, adventures of its own periodically. And its crew doesn't recognize that or realize that because it does it on a regular basis.'cause it doesn't, it doesn't show, you know, how much it can do.

Lilly 47:11

I guess sometimes when we read, well, this is more with young adult novels where I'm reading about the adventures of a 13-year-old and I'm like, where are your parents? That was the emotion I had towards art in this book. Where are your people?

Sara 47:28

I, I get it. I do kind of wonder where they think art is for these extra days that art is taking. But again, maybe art builds that into the schedule that it sends art, presumably is in charge of, of sending the crew or whatever, you know, its own itinerary. Art can fake that. We have plenty of evidence that art can fake whatever it wants

Lilly 47:56

oh, I really loved the typesetting story that was told because art is a RT, I don't remember what it stands for,

Sara 48:06

as asshole, like research, transport or something.

Lilly 48:09

I thought that was murder bot's, jokey name. Was that the actual

Sara 48:14

Well, that is the joking name, but I think that the joking name is the only name we get for art.

Lilly 48:20

thing? Oh, okay. Well, great. Anyway and then at the very end. The humans that Murderbot has been working for are like, oh yeah, your friend Art told us that you'd be back or something. And then in that dialogue it is capital A lowercase RT. Whereas everywhere else in the book it is capital a RT. And I thought that was delightful.

Sara 48:47

That is very cute and I do like that also. Yes, asshole research, Tran transport, and I think that's the only origin for that name that we get.

Lilly 48:57

Well, we've talked about the power imbalance between Murderbot as a free construct versus art as a, some kind of. Identity who has a governorship in them. And we also made a comfort unit in this book.

Sara 49:15

Yes. So the comfort units are essentially the sex bots as we, as we talked about earlier.

Lilly 49:22

That's what Murder Bot calls them. And actually it gets called out because, so a human is like, that's not what they're called. It feels like one of those, like, you can't say that word and Murder Bot is like, I can, but I can't tell you that I can. So, okay.

Sara 49:38

I mean, comfort unit is a very euphemistic term for it.

Lilly 49:43

It's Sex Bot. Yeah.

Sara 49:44

Yeah.

Lilly 49:45

Like how security unit is a euphemism for murder bot.

Sara 49:49

Yes. Yeah. We don't see a lot of the comfort unit to be honest. And I kind of would've liked to see more of it, but I'm glad that we see a little bit

Lilly 50:00

It, I think is gonna show back up because at the end, Murderbot gets rid of its governor Chip or whatever

Sara 50:09

module.

Lilly 50:10

module. And to me that feels like Murderbot is gonna traverse across the galaxy, freeing robot slaves and giving people their own identities and futures back. I'm here for it

Sara 50:24

See, I would be here for that. I didn't actually get the feeling that we would see any more of this comfort unit.

Lilly 50:30

really.

Sara 50:31

It felt to me kind of like a one-off, like, yes, you have your freedom. Now go and enjoy it, but we're never gonna see you again.

Lilly 50:40

Maybe I was recruiting too much into it. I also thought. That the comfort unit that we see during current events of this book was going to be one of the comfort units that Murder Bot sees in its investigation, flashbacks to the events from whoever knows how long ago. So the fact that it was a completely different unit, I thought was interesting.

Sara 51:06

Yeah, I mean they do kind of hint at that beforehand. So basically Murder Bot has gone back to this mining worlds because it wants to investigate the accident where it thinks it murdered lots of people. It goes to this mining station or the station that's been wiped out. And it discovers that there was some kind of accident because malware got uploaded to all of the security units and they all went crazy and started murdering people. And the comfort units were trying to save people basically, like they, they were thinking okay, we're going to alert the outside world and we're gonna protect people as much as we can. And in this flashback there's like five, four or five comfort units and I. We have very brief lines for all of them, but, but Murderbot remembers, or not remembers, but Murderbot has goes through security footage or uploads or something. And it's like one comfort unit went out to do something and then four responded and one comfort unit went out to do something else, and three responded. And so we see them get killed off and so you know that they all die.

Lilly 52:22

I think a lot of it is also motivations as well, because that's something that Murderbot has noticed in itself that even without its govern unit telling it that it must follow these orders, it wants to protect people, and it hasn't really come to terms with that yet. Then we also see these comfort units who have the same instinct, and I think that was very striking for Murderbot because I think get the feeling like it was kind of writing that off as well. I'm just so used to it. I'm just following behavior patterns. But when comfort units whose orders have nothing to do with that also want to do it for absolutely no reason other than their own free will, I think it's very meaningful.

Sara 53:14

Yes, I agree with that. I think that leaves a big impression on Murderbot.

Lilly 53:19

There's also the interesting tidbit that the security units do not just start murdering people, they just become violent. And there is in fact evidence that the security units were fighting each other.

Sara 53:33

Yeah, I mean they, they don't, it's not a coordinated thing. Like they don't attack all of the people in some kind of coordinated effort. They go mad basically.

Lilly 53:46

I don't remember from the first book, which is a bummer if we learn how murderbot or when exactly Murderbot. Overrode. Its governorship.

Sara 53:59

Well, Murderbot doesn't even know because Murderbot.

Lilly 54:02

what I thought. Right. It doesn't know when it happened.

Sara 54:04

Yeah. Well, well we see that in this book because Murderbot talks to art about how it doesn't know if it, if it did it in response to this incident or if it did it like, as part of this incident. Like that's one of the things that Murderbot is trying to figure out.

Lilly 54:23

Well, it's pretty clear after what we learn in this book. Murder bot did not override its governorship in order to go on a murderous rampage. The murderous rampage was incited by an outside virus attack. We know that now. And so I feel, and now maybe this is me being a hyper emotional dope, but I feel like the series is setting us up that Murderbot hacked its governorship so that it could fight against the security units that had been infected by the virus.

Sara 54:59

I guess we just gotta read and find out.

Lilly 55:01

We do. And if that's not the case, that's fine. I think there's a lot of interesting stuff that Wells can do with the story regardless. But that's my like very sentimental version.

Sara 55:15

It's a nice, it's a nice version.

Lilly 55:18

Or murder bot had already hacked its governorship because it wanted to hang out and watch TV shows, and then it was like, oh no. Why are these coworkers that I don't really get along with? Because it's made it clear that it doesn't like security bots don't socialize with each other.

Sara 55:38

I don't think that Murderbot had hacked its security or its governor module yet, because if it had, it probably would have been found out in the, like, look over and the repairs that happened after this incident.

Lilly 55:56

I disagree because I thought it was implied that it had been on multiple assignments. In between these events and the events of the first book.

Sara 56:06

Right, right. But those are not as thorough checkups as something would be after, you know, all of your security units went mad.

Lilly 56:16

Well, well, in that case, you don't think it had hacked its chip during this case at all, because if it had hacked its Governor Chip at any point it would've been found out.

Sara 56:26

Right. I don't, I don't actually think it happened during this incident.

Lilly 56:31

Murder Bot thinks it does. So maybe it's wrong.

Sara 56:34

I guess, we'll, we have to read and find out. I mean,

Lilly 56:37

Well, that's always the answer

Sara 56:40

it, it is, but

Lilly 56:41

all day long.

Sara 56:42

yeah,

Lilly 56:43

Well, Murderbot says something pretty fucking funny at the beginning of the book, and it kind of hits on a personal pet peeve of mine, although I think Murderbot was being tongue, tongue in cheek when it said it or when Martha Wells said it through Murderbot seconds added up to a minute. Then three more. It doesn't sound like much to humans. Bitch. Yes it does. Do you know how long three minutes is?

Sara 57:09

especially in the context of silence. Right. Like a lack of response from, from your conversational partner.

Lilly 57:17

I've done this on the podcast before. I think when this first came up as a pet peeve of mine, where specifically when an author says Minute when, I think they meant moment very different because saying a whole minute of silence is really long.

Sara 57:34

A minute of silence is long. Three minutes of silence is long.

Lilly 57:39

Both of those are way too long for a normal conversation. You would be like actively concerned about someone who just sat there for a minute.

Sara 57:48

you would, you would start trying to make, you know, conversation with them?

Lilly 57:53

I would start shaking someone before two

Sara 57:56

Yes.

Lilly 57:57

having a full on conversation and they just stopped. Like,

Sara 58:02

I mean, I wouldn't go straight to shaking. I would, I would be like, hello,

Lilly 58:06

well, yeah, but by two minutes I would've escalated to shaking

Sara 58:09

yes. Yes.

Lilly 58:10

three minutes. Murder bot.

Sara 58:14

30 seconds is a pretty long silence.

Lilly 58:19

Just for fun. I won't do, I won't do a whole minute, but let's leave a, a second here for 30 seconds of dead silence.

Sara 58:28

That's great. Podcast listening.

Lilly 58:59

I'm not gonna make us sit here for 30 seconds. I just meant like I'll edit it in.

Sara 59:04

You'll edit in 30 seconds.

Lilly 59:06

Yeah. Because our listeners can listen to it, but I don't wanna sit here for that long.

Sara 59:10

we made about 10 seconds.

Lilly 59:12

Just about if you made it that long, amazing. You, you lived here for the bit, but. The episode's over. So thank you.

Sara 59:23

That's how.

Lilly 59:24

With 30 seconds of silence. Yes. Just approve a point.

Sara 59:30

Are you keeping this conversation in or are you just going to go straight to the outro?

Lilly 59:35

I'm gonna keep this conversation in.

Sara 59:38

It would be kind of funny if you didn't though.

Lilly 59:40

it would be pretty funny. But that would feel like it's funny at the expense of our listeners, and that's not fun for them, presumably. I, yeah.

Sara 59:51

Well, listener write in and tell us what you thought about this thought Experiment.

Lilly 59:57

And then next time you try to say a minute of anything, remember this moment and then never do it unless you really fucking mean it anyway.

Sara 1:00:07

been a PSA for fan fiction authors,

Lilly 1:00:10

Not just fan fiction.

Sara 1:00:12

not just fan fiction authors. To be fair, you are correct.

Lilly 1:00:16

have been published books, self-published, traditional, published like many times. I see a minute as if they mean moment.

Sara 1:00:26

There have been published books. I see it in fan fiction more, but, but I, we have seen it in published books

Lilly 1:00:33

A minute is a precise thing.

Sara 1:00:35

and it's long.

Lilly 1:00:38

And on that note, thank you for listening to this more than one minute long episode of Fiction Fans.

Sara 1:00:43

Come disagree with us. We're on Blue Sky and Instagram at Fiction Fans Pod. You can also email us at fiction fans pod@gmail.com or leave a comment on our YouTube channel.

Lilly 1:00:55

If you enjoyed the episode, please rate and review on Spotify and Apple Podcasts and follow us wherever your podcasts may live.

Sara 1:01:03

We also have a Patreon where you can support us and find exclusive episodes and a lot of other nonsense.

Lilly 1:01:09

Thanks again for listening, and may your villains always be defeated. Bye.