Fiction Fans

Down In the Sea of Angels by Khan Wong

• Episode 188

Share episode

Your hosts discuss San Francisco, intertwining narratives, and the optimism of seeing a community come together against discrimination in Down In the Sea of Angels by Khan Wong. Content warnings for this episode include discussion of sexual assault and sex trafficking.


Find us on Discord / Support us on Patreon


Thanks to the following musicians for the use of their songs:

- Amarià for the use of “Sérénade à Notre Dame de Paris”
- Josh Woodward for the use of “Electric Sunrise”

Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 4.0 License

Lilly:

Hello and welcome to Fiction Fans, a podcast where we read books and other words too. I'm Lily.

Sara:

And I'm Sarah. And today we will be talking about down in the Sea of Angels, which is K Wong's new book.

Lilly:

Before we get into that, we have our quick five minute introduction. Also a bunch of construction that I can hear. Not sure if you can hear it.

Sara:

I can hear a little bit, but I don't think it's too distracting or too audible.

Lilly:

you can hear it, that means the listeners double can hear it. But that's just what we're dealing with today. So,

Sara:

If listeners can deal with my pug snores I think they can handle some construction noises.

Lilly:

oh, the pugs are way cuter, but what's something great that happened recently?

Sara:

I just got back from attending Jordan Kahan, which is the Wheel of Time convention, held in Atlanta, Georgia, and that was a lot of fun. Also related to it. One of my friends who went there brought or made three big boxes of caramels for me and they are so good. I cannot stop eating them. My God.

Lilly:

homemade caramel. Sounds amazing.

Sara:

They are incredible.

Lilly:

Jelly. Okay. My good thing is that my town is doing town, where do I live? my small city in the suburbs of Seattle, not Seattle, but nearby is doing an officially sponsored taco crawl. It's adorable.

Sara:

That sounds amazing.

Lilly:

yeah, I've eaten so much Mexican food because you go and you get the one free taco.'cause you're supposed to like. There's like a little voting thing. You can rate that each taco and they're gonna announce the winner on Cinco de Mayo. It's adorable. But you go and I feel bad just getting the free taco, so I'm like, well, I'll also have a margarita maybe maybe some chips and dip, you know, let's see how we're feeling.

Sara:

As one does.

Lilly:

it's been really, really, fun though.

Sara:

Which has been your favorite taco and why?

Lilly:

I mean, I haven't finished them yet. I've only done like 10, I think out of the 15 places, which is a pretty good number. That's Par participating. I would say there are two main categories, which are the nightlife locations that are just participating for the cred. Their tacos have been fine, but you're not supposed to judge it based on price. But of course I look up like, how much would I have to pay for this taco if I bought it for real? And the trendy bars are so expensive. It's like two tacos for$20. It's horrendous. And then there's like some really delightful independent hole in the wall. Mexican restaurants.

Sara:

Yes.

Lilly:

Those were also the restaurants that were most excited to see us. When there's a promotion like this, there have been two main reactions, which is, oh. Or Taco Crawl. And so, you know, one of those is more fun than the other.

Sara:

Well, that sounds delightful.

Lilly:

it's been quite a lot of fun. Tacos, El ha, I think is the name of the place. I don't remember the off the top of my head, but to answer your question, that was my favorite. It's the restaurant I'm most likely to actually go back to. Good tacos. First of all nice vibe. Some of the restaurants were, one of them was a nightclub. Like it's weird, it's been a a range of places. I'm not gonna talk about tacos for an hour, even though I could. But it's

Sara:

surprise. This is actually a Taco podcast now.

Lilly:

I would do it. It's fun that the city is doing that though, and it has definitely gotten me to like, try some places I wouldn't have. Been gone to otherwise. So

Sara:

I, I love that

Lilly:

And I'm actually excited to go to the city's little Cinco de Mayo thing'cause I do wanna know who the winner is and if I'm gonna have to write an angry letter about one of the trendy bars winning instead of an actual Mexican restaurant, I think, I don't think they would do that to us, but we'll see. What are you drinking tonight?

Sara:

I am drinking tea.

Lilly:

I'm drinking a Jasmine green tea. This is

Sara:

I can't tell you what kind of tea I'm drinking

Lilly:

you don't even know if it's black tea or,

Sara:

well, it is, it is

Lilly:

okay. That's something

Sara:

It is from China, but I can't remember how I got it. It was either a gift from our cousin Rowena, or. Something that a visiting scholar brought to the East Asian Library or something that I took from a previous job, and I can't remember which of the three it is.

Lilly:

Well, that's very thematic because. Several of the characters in the book we are about to discuss are from China and there's a lot of tea in it as well.

Sara:

Yes, I did think it was appropriate.

Lilly:

Have either of us read anything that was not podcast related recently?

Sara:

I am going to say the answer is no,

Lilly:

Yeah, I've been playing logic puzzles. Have I talked about this on air yet?

Sara:

I don't think so.

Lilly:

It's, they're very like a book of the, like if Sally won't sit next to Susie and Georgina is wearing a green shirt, then who was in the second row? Like that kind of shit. Except, you know, more clues than that. So it is actually possible to figure out. Very fun. But yes, onto down in the Sea of Angels.

Sara:

Yes. So this is K Wong's sophomore novel. It is his second book the first being the Circus Infinite, which you can listen to our interview with long. Because we interviewed him about that book, the podcast. Before we start I do wanna give some content warnings for this book in particular. It deals with a lot of racism. There's sexual assault sex trafficking, historical sex trafficking like abuse lots of drug use, drug related death. So if those are things that will make you, uncomfortable or that you, for whatever reason, don't want to hear about, this is probably not going to be the episode for you.

Lilly:

It was interesting. This book starts with a content wording to that same effect. I think specifically about the like sex trafficking and sex trafficking of children, which is horrifying. And yet I was still surprised by it when I got, well, not, not the concept in general, but there was like a very graphic rape scene that,

Sara:

Yeah. Yeah. It's, it's not just talk about this stuff. Like there are scenes of assault and trafficking in this, in this book

Lilly:

And it warned me, the book was like, Hey, this is gonna happen, and then it happened and I was like, whoa.

Sara:

Yes. But just be warned. So this book, essentially it follows three characters. We have lean one in 1906, who is a Chinese girl sold into. Indentured servitude to a, like mob boss in San Francisco and then he forces her into sex work. So she is basically where all of those content warnings

Lilly:

She has all of the content. I mean, I guess, I guess there's some drug use, but that doesn't feel nearly on the same level as Lene Juan in her story.

Sara:

Yes. Then we have Nathan in 2006 who is essentially a tech bro in San Francisco, struggling to come to terms with the fact that there is no ethical consumption under capitalism.

Lilly:

he does mushrooms gasp.

Sara:

And he does, he does the drugs.

Lilly:

I, I, just, the fact that those are the both considered content warnings. They're just on such different levels. Maybe I'm blase about drug use, but it does not feel nearly the same.

Sara:

I think you're a little bit blase about drug use because there is a drug related, drug related death in this

Lilly:

That's true.

Sara:

So it's not, yes, it's a little bit lighter than the sex trafficking, but it's, I do think it still deserves its own warning

Lilly:

I mean, sure. That just

Sara:

I appreciate the.

Lilly:

on the same level to me, but I.

Sara:

Yeah, but I appreciate that Wong warns us, like provides, provides the warning for both. And then the third character that this book follows is maa. And I would argue that she's kind of like the main character. She, her story is set in 2106 after some kind of, there's been some kind of like post-apocalyptic event or something that's happened.

Lilly:

Sorry, I'm gonna nitpick. There was an apocalyptic event, which we

Sara:

Yeah. Yes, yes. Okay. You are, you are correct. There was an apocalyptic event that happened. We are now in some kind of post-apocalyptic, semi utopian bay area and she is what is called a scion. So she's got magic powers, essentially. She can read the history of objects. She learns that a political leader wants to round up all of the scions and use them to take over. And boy, that sounds familiar.

Lilly:

So like not entirely utopian.

Sara:

That's why I said semi utopian.

Lilly:

MAA is absolutely the main character. The conceit of the book is very fun. So her sections are in first person and as she is reading the history of objects. We're sort of introduced to Nathan and Lean Juan. Now, that being said, they have their own sections that are about them. It's not like we get their story entirely through Mata's perspective, but it's definitely presented as like these are the stories that she's piecing together from her archeological work.

Sara:

Yeah, there, there is one object that kind of connects them all together. And that's what she's reading. I, I will say this is a very Bay Area book, not just like geographically, like obviously yes, all of their stories take place in the Bay Area, specifically San Francisco. But I, and I don't really know how to express this, but just in terms of like vibes and the. Feel of the book. Like I felt like It was written from a very Bay Area perspective, which makes sense because Wong lives in the Bay Area. But it, yeah, I don't, I don't know how to, I don't know how to say it better. It's, it's a very Bay area

Lilly:

It was delightfully nostalgic for me. I haven't lived in the Bay Area in lot years longer than I actually lived there for. But reading about places that I remember, it was like. Aw, daily city. And yeah, it wasn't just the like, trendy, obvious if you Google what are places in San Francisco, there's just a list that you could slap on top of this story. Like it, it really felt genuine in a way that was very enjoyable.

Sara:

Yeah, I, and again, it was not just the geography or the locations, although that too felt very genuine, like you say. But just something about the,

Lilly:

Well, the characters are entwined with San Francisco history. Lean Juan experiences the earthquake and subsequent fires which is a spoiler, except also that's history. So it happened.

Sara:

Yes. I mean any, anyone who knows anything about the Bay Area hears 1906 and kind of can guess what's going to happen

Lilly:

Which is a very fun device, like some very good dramatic tension there. And the, the book also warns you, you don't have to just know that,

Sara:

Yes.

Lilly:

I, I think Mya probably gives us that context. I just know that the book itself tells us about the earthquake And then, Yeah, well. It sure does

Sara:

And then,

Lilly:

And Nathan being a tech bro is very San Francisco,

Sara:

yes.

Lilly:

a tech bro who goes to Burning Man.

Sara:

a tech bro who goes to Burning Man. And I was like, I have coworkers who go to Burning Man, like I've never been myself, But

Lilly:

But like you've met Nathan, you know Nathan.

Sara:

Yeah. I, I know Nathan, basically. So it was a, a really interesting experience because I don't think that I've read a science fiction novel that is so clearly about a place that I live. I mean, like, we've read other books that take place in San Francisco, or I've read other books that take place in San Francisco, but. Yeah, I don't know this, this was just, it was, it was very, very, very Bay area and that made it an interesting experience because I live in the Bay Area. I work in tech in the Bay Area, yeah.

Lilly:

Now I was neither rich nor cool enough to live in any of the areas that get talked about in this book.

Sara:

I mean, I don't either, like my, my little portion of the Bay Area was never mentioned, but

Lilly:

but it was fun. It was recognizable. This book does fall into a, a classic complaint of mine, which is mine is sections Sure are in first person perspective.

Sara:

They are in first person perspective.

Lilly:

It, it didn't work for me, I think. There were a number of aspects about this book that simply were not for me which did make it hard to engage with.

Sara:

Yeah. I mean, and that's fair.

Lilly:

Yeah.

Sara:

Like I, I really enjoyed the book, but I. I am surprised that you did not enjoy the first person perspective pieces.

Lilly:

It. I, I use that as an easy shorthand because it just kind of encapsulates a lot of things for me. It's not just that it, yeah. You know, I won't re-litigate this. But yeah, that was, that was a situation that I encountered.

Sara:

Well, books are not for everyone and that's okay.

Lilly:

I was also kind of confused by the magic in the book. Not. So society collapses. We consume ourselves into an apocalypse. There's a bloom, which is used, a term used in this world for, there was like a year of constant aurora borealis, and then suddenly people had magic powers. These are now codified, like there's a university where you can go and learn to use your magic and everything. So it's explained in a very like, straightforward, here are the rules way, but they kind of contradicted themselves and that wasn't addressed in the text as, Hey, we don't understand these powers yet. And so that was a little difficult.

Sara:

Yeah, I. mean there, there are a couple of times when the magic, and we're calling it magic. I would say that this is a sci-fi novel, not like a fantasy novel. It's not, it, it's very sci-fi esque powers.

Lilly:

book calls them psychic powers, but it's it's magic.

Sara:

it's, it is basically, it's magic. I forget where I was going with the sentence. Yes. So the, the book does occasionally have some inconsistencies, like mata's power of being able to read objects. She occasionally also reads locations and, and that's,

Lilly:

her power, very specifically, she can read the owners of an object and an object must have had owners for her to read, and then suddenly also. O places are fine public places that don't have owners. And I was like, so then ownership doesn't matter. I did not get it.

Sara:

so that was, that was not necessarily the most internally consistent. It didn't bother me too much because I enjoyed the vibes of, of the book enough. But

Lilly:

See, to me, that's why I'm insisting on calling it magic.

Sara:

I mean, that's, that's, I don't, I don't care if it's called magic or not, I.

Lilly:

So Lean Juan's section sections the, the chapters are sort of interspersed from these different character or following these different characters. She is sex trafficked and an indentured servitude and no good. I'm just gonna summarize that.

Sara:

Her, her sections were really hard to read.

Lilly:

Oh, that when I said no. Good. I meant her situation, not your,

Sara:

Right. No, no, no, no, no. I, I knew, I knew you were referring to her situation.

Lilly:

I just wanted to clarify.

Sara:

Yeah. Yes. I knew, I knew you were referring to her situation, and I was elaborating that her situation was no good, and thus it made her sections really hard to read because they were just, she, yeah, they were, they were distressing. I mean, and this is. There, there was some obviously she is like a made up character, but there is historical accuracy to this. There were a lot of Chinese girls who were sold into essentially sex slavery in Chinatown and Wong discusses a little bit at the end of the book some of the research that he did, but, it was just, it was hard to read and also like you have to acknowledge that this is a thing that happened in our history.

Lilly:

It reminded me in a kind of obtuse way of the Good Time Girls of the Alaskan Gold Rush which you probably recall listeners might not because it was a nonfiction book that we covered on our Patreon. But that was a very fun book about sex workers in the Gold Rush which is, mostly took place in Alaska, but it kind of followed these women's stories and they often came through San Francisco or Seattle to Alaska. And it only reminds me of that because the situations are so different.

Sara:

Yeah.

Lilly:

I mean, it's, it's the classic, the women whose stories we followed in Alaska doing legal work. They had protection, the like, legal protection. It was generally their choice. And so at like having that in the back of my head of kind of a similar era as not too much earlier than Wan's story and then comparing it to just the awful situation. This book, was this the stark differences?

Sara:

Yeah. I mean, that was much less predatory than what Lewan goes through.

Lilly:

Well, I mean,

Sara:

OO obviously. Yes, I

Lilly:

mean some of the women thrived,

Sara:

yeah. I, I know, I know. You know that.

Lilly:

There are strong, independent women who, like, were basically small business owners. It was very neat. And. That's, you know, the fun sex work stories,

Sara:

Yeah.

Lilly:

And it is important to remember that like, yeah, not, it's not a, sometimes it's not sex work, sometimes it's just assault.

Sara:

Yes.

Lilly:

But all that being said, lean one story is not, I mean, this book is not a sad book ultimately.

Sara:

I would argue that it's a very optimistic book. And we'll have a longer conversation about that in the spoiler section. But Lean one does, oh, is this a spoil? I don't, I don't care about spoiling the fact that Lean one gets out. I think, I think you need, kind of need to have that in the back of your mind.

Lilly:

Well, and you kind of find out at the beginning of the book because you get flashes of history from Mata's perspective of reading. The, the teacup is the object that sort of ties them all together. We know that the teacup means freedom to her from like page one.

Sara:

Yes.

Lilly:

So the Wong. I think made sure that we knew that like there were brighter times ahead, which was very important. At least for me reading this book,'cause it, it is, it feels weird to call this book optimistic because it spends so much time in the low parts of the story.

Sara:

Yeah, I, I understand that. Again, well, I think, I think this argument will be better served in the spoiler section because some of my counter arguments are

Lilly:

You are right. I, I just I'm gonna ask who should read this book and we're gonna talk about it being optimistic, but I think there's a difference between optimistic and feel good

Sara:

Yes.

Lilly:

you're not given the warm and fuzzies while you're reading this book. And I

Sara:

Yes. I, I think yeah, I think a lot of this book is hard to read. Not in a, like a technical sense or anything, but just that some of the characters go through hard things, specifically lean one.

Lilly:

I mean, MAA does as well. She gets persecuted for her magic.

Sara:

Yeah. Yeah. So there, there are, there's a lot of hard situations in this book. I do think that it ends on a very optimistic note, but and so I, I would still call it an optimistic book in general, but it's, it's not always a warm and fuzzy book. I would

Lilly:

Yeah. So then who should read this book?

Sara:

So I, think if you want a very Bay Area story that does ultimately have an optimistic outlook on society, I think you should read this book,

Lilly:

I,

Sara:

but you, you have to enjoy first person perspective.

Lilly:

yeah, think for all of the trials that the characters go through in this book, at the hands of other people, I. The w the message that Wong is telling us is ultimately that people are good. You just,

Sara:

Or that people can be good. Like people can choose. Good?

Lilly:

You just gotta get there.

Sara:

Yes.

Lilly:

there is, there is, there is some gitten

Sara:

Yes.

Lilly:

This episode of Fiction Fans is brought to you by fiction fans.

Sara:

that's us. We really appreciate our Patrons because otherwise we fund this podcast entirely ourselves.

Lilly:

Patrons can find weekly bonus content, monthly exclusive episodes, and they have free access to our biannual zine solstice.

Sara:

You can find all of that and more at patreon.com/fiction fans pod. Thank you for all of your support.

Lilly:

The remainder of this episode contains spoilers.

Sara:

Okay, so here is my argument for why I think it's an optimistic book, and that is that the characters. In the future. So basically Mata's storyline are dealing with, political leaders or apolitical leader who wants to round up all of the Scions and use them to take over the like country essentially. And I. They triumph over this political leader. Like without, there are, there is a little bit of struggle, but it's not actually that much. And when the people like when the masses are shown evidence that this political leader Lindstrom, I think was his name is. Like conning everyone and doing bad things, they turn on him. And that felt like a very optimistic outlook on people in society.

Lilly:

the bar is low,

Sara:

And, and yeah, maybe that felt like a little bit too optimistic in, in this day and age.

Lilly:

So I, I'm gonna quibble, not disagree, only quibble.

Sara:

It wouldn't be fiction fans if we didn't quibble.

Lilly:

The ending of the book is optimistic, but the experience of reading it sp like the book spends most of its time going through the struggle. So saying like it's an optimistic book doesn't mean you feel optimistic while you're reading it. It just means it doesn't end feel making you feel bad.

Sara:

I agree. I mean it, there is a lot of time spent on talking about how society has come together after this apocalyptic event and the

Lilly:

That's true, but it's always phase phrased retrospectively with, can you believe those assholes before us doing all this awful shit? And I'm like, but that's, that's me.

Sara:

it it is, it it is, it's true. And there, there is also a lot of Nathan's internal struggle about live, essentially living in, in capitalism. And that doesn't feel great either, but I think. because of the ending of this book where everyone comes together and essentially doesn't let doesn't let one guy in his. It's not racism if it's against

Lilly:

I think.

Sara:

Mag Magic user. But Yeah. bigotry doesn't let his bigotry like stand. That felt really optimistic to me.

Lilly:

And when they were shown evidence of him lying, they believed it. Incredible.

Sara:

Yeah, like that just, that just felt really optimistic.

Lilly:

I mean, you're right. That's why I'm saying I'm not arguing that the book ends optimistically. I just do think if, so, if we handed a book, this book to someone and we're like, this looks optimistic. And then they started reading it, they would be in for a bad time.

Sara:

Yeah, I, that's, that's fair.

Lilly:

I also, oh, Nathan did not vibe with me at all.

Sara:

I thought Nathan was sometimes very frustrating because He he's having this, crisis where he realizes that he works in a, society

Lilly:

in a, yeah, he lives in a society. yeah,

Sara:

he lives he lives in a society and he, he spends a lot of time having this crisis and not a lot of time until the end actually trying to figure out how he can do things.

Lilly:

It.

Sara:

And I like, on the one hand, I, I got It. but on the other hand. Yeah, dude. You work in tech?

Lilly:

Even the action that he ultimately takes though is so. Inherently privileged. He's like, oh Yeah. I'm just gonna quit my job with nothing lined up. I have plenty of savings and a boyfriend who will support me. Like, excuse me,

Sara:

Yes.

Lilly:

dude. Just the fact that you're able to do that. Like, maybe, maybe it hit too close to home. Because I work in advertising and have had clients that I did not agree with, and you just suck it up and do your job.'cause you need to eat.

Sara:

Yeah.

Lilly:

Like, I don't know. Someone needed to shake him. he got shaken a little bit. Because there were a few times where his friends were like, you're just whining about stuff and not doing anything about it. So like, shut up or put up basically. and I appreciated that quite a bit. I needed a little bit more of it. I liked his friends quite a bit. I really liked Hot Danny.

Sara:

Yeah, he had a, he had a great friend group. And we don't focus on them that much because, you know, Nathan is the character that has this connection with the, the Jade teacup. But I would've liked to see more of his friends.

Lilly:

Yeah, it was. Really interesting. All of the side characters we get introduced to. Like, there's a huge cast in this book because the three storylines are like in entirely different not locations, but play space times,

Sara:

Yeah, I mean there's they don't, they don't connect with each other except. Through the fact that all of the main characters in each story are related.

Lilly:

right. means we get to see all of the sort of peripheral people in their lives. and I like Nathan's group of people and Lean W's group of people I liked for very different reasons. Nathan's group of people I just liked know reservations. Wan obviously was not surrounded by allies most of the time.

Sara:

She was not surrounded by good people or friends the way that Nathan was.

Lilly:

but I also found the characters that she interacted with, the people that she was interacting with, the most interesting narratively, because I, they, they were just much more complex. I mean, bad dudes. I used dude gender neutrally here for sure.

Sara:

Yeah,

Lilly:

But I mean, especially, I specifically. The Madam the Madam Bi, I think her name was.

Sara:

I think so.

Lilly:

Yeah, so she was the one running the brothel and I also participating in it. I mean, she had to do sex work as well, and not necessarily by choice. Her character was so perfectly infuriating. I hated her and I pitied her at like in the exact same moment because she is just as indentured, as Lean Juan and the other girls, which the book acknowledges and I really appreciated. But she's also perpetuating it and it like, it, it hit that perfect like it, it felt like real humanity in. Not, not the peak humanity way, but like, Hmm. That is, that is how existence works, isn't it?

Sara:

she, she provides a good foil to lewan because, like you say, she is also in this situation where she doesn't have a choice. She has also been trafficked and is having to do these, these. Things that she doesn't necessarily want to do. I mean, we don't spend any time in her head, but but it's kind of implied that she's not happy about it? but she chooses to take what power she can have over others, and that's the way that she kind of like. Copes. Yeah. And so you could contrast that with Wan who, who sees that and is like, no, I'm just going to get out. Like I don't want to further perpetuate this. I don't want to work, work up in this world. And so she is a good foil. I. I, I think one of the strengths of this book is the way that Wong is able to create these multidimensional side characters without actually spending that much time with them.

Lilly:

Well, and. Wan's storyline is where that really shines. I think I found the characters in Nathan's storyline and Maya's storyline much more straightforward there. Like, I don't wanna say less complex, but there, there was a much stronger line of like good versus evil which is maybe dramatic, but I'm also not wrong.

Sara:

I would agree, I would agree with you in Maya's storyline because I think that does have a much a, a very clear cut, like good versus evil in, in the sense of all of Maya's friends do oppose this evil politician and, and don't like that he is trying to take rights away from the scions.

Lilly:

camp's bad,

Sara:

Yes. Concentration camp's

Lilly:

not something that I'm gonna argue with and not something that the book tries to make you feel complicated about, which I do appreciate. Let me just, let me just hate bigotry. That's nice.

Sara:

yes. But I think that Nathan's friends, they felt like a, a, very well-rounded friend group, even though. I agree, they're not necessarily as morally complex. As the people in Le Juan's storyline, they still felt like human beings with their own like wants and desires and like a genuine friend group.

Lilly:

Oh, absolutely. I, I mean, I think the. The aspersion that I'm casting on them is that they were too nice, which is not something that you would ever say in real life, but they were just, it was so wholesome. They all cared about each other genuinely and supported each other and just wanted the best for their friends, and gave Nathan a shake when he needed one. Like it was just good and so good versus evil. They were just good.

Sara:

I, they were, they were good friends. Yes. Like they were the kind of people that you wanna surround, surround yourself with in your friend

Lilly:

absolutely, and I mean there was some tension in that Nathan had issues with the sort of overconsumption of festival life, but even that was mostly just in his head.

Sara:

Nathan's story was very much like an an interior one.

Lilly:

And so he's just going through this crisis surrounded by people who love him and hope for the best for him. And so I was like, alright, buddy, you'll figure it out. Like, and it wasn't I wasn't worried about him. And so as a reader I was just like, okay. Does that make like a wan story is so much worse, not like the experiences she goes through are so much worse that it, it, was more compelling for me.

Sara:

That's, that's fair. I mean, and like I ag I agree in that respect, but I still think that it was impressive that for all, that we didn't spend a lot of time with the side characters in, in either arc or storyline. Like they still felt like people, that's all I'm

Lilly:

Oh yeah, absolutely. Like they were totally people. When, when I say that they were straightforward, I didn't mean that they were like caricatures, just that I didn't have complex emotions about them.

Sara:

Yeah, That's, that's fair and valid. But that's also, again, like we've read books or I've read books where the side character, when you get this kind of like multi-layered story, multi-threaded story, sometimes the side characters suffer for it. And I, I didn't feel that way in this

Lilly:

no, the, the glimpses that we get really do feel like a glimpse into a larger, rich life instead of this is all there is about them.

Sara:

Yeah, Yeah.

Lilly:

Thank you so much for listening to this episode of Fiction Fans.

Sara:

Come disagree with us. We're on Blue Sky and Instagram at Fiction Fans Pod. You can also email us at Fiction fans pod@gmail.com or leave a comment on our YouTube channel.

Lilly:

If you enjoyed the episode, please rate and review on Spotify and Apple Podcasts and follow us wherever your podcasts live.

Sara:

We also have a Patreon where you can support us and find exclusive episodes and a lot of other nonsense.

Lilly:

Thanks again for listening, and may your villains always be defeated. Bye.