Fiction Fans

The Tombs of Atuan by Ursula K. Le Guin

• Episode 198

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Your hosts don’t do justice to The Tombs of Atuan, the second of Ursula K. Le Guin’s Earthsea novels, but they DO discuss standalone sequels, the differences in coming of age stories between genders, claustrophobic settings, and classic fantasy.


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Thanks to the following musicians for the use of their songs:

- Amarià for the use of “Sérénade à Notre Dame de Paris”

Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 4.0 License


Lilly:

Hello and welcome to Fiction Fans, a podcast where we read books and other words too. I'm Lily.

Sara:

And I am Sarah, and today we will be talking about the tombs of Wan by Ursula Kay Le Guin.

Lilly:

It is the sequel to a Wizard of Earth Sea earthy, earthy.

Sara:

Earthy.

Lilly:

I wrote it wrong in my notes and just realized that.

Sara:

Yes.

Lilly:

This was also a book chosen by our patrons. So thank you everyone for voting on which book we should cover for this episode. However, before we get into it, our five minute introduction. Sarah, what's something good that happened recently?

Sara:

I do this week has been pretty shit. But I do have some good things. And one of those good things is that I finally finished Fathers Gate three. I am so proud of myself. It has taken a long time. Lily has had to put up with me complaining about how I want to start the game over and play with new characters because I am just that kind of person. How I've been restraining myself until I finish the game and now I've done it and I can start over.

Lilly:

Did you immediately start a new game?

Sara:

Yes,

Lilly:

Good. And my good thing is that I made a really great roast for dinner, I guess two nights ago.

Sara:

that is a very good thing.

Lilly:

It is leftovers from which continue to sustain me

Sara:

Excellent. Even better.

Lilly:

and even better. Yeah. What are you drinking tonight?

Sara:

I am drinking box wine because it's been a week

Lilly:

It has, it has been a week. I it is, it is too muggy for wine. I know. Crazy statement.

Sara:

muggy for wine.

Lilly:

It's just the hot and gross and being drunk just sounds miserable.

Sara:

Yeah. Fair.

Lilly:

So I'm drinking iced tea. I made some iced good earth tea today, so it's like, kind of spicy citrusy. It's very good.

Sara:

Nice. That is the kind of tea that I don't enjoy hot, but I do think works very well. Iced

Lilly:

it's really good both. Have you read anything good lately?

Sara:

Have I read anything lately? I thought I had an answer for this, but I. Don't actually think I have an answer for this,

Lilly:

I fell into a rabbit hole of amnesia time traveling toxic romance, fan fiction, and have done just about nothing else.

Sara:

and I have not helped with that. So, sorry, not sorry.

Lilly:

I mean, it makes me feel less guilty that you're egging me on. But I do feel bad for this poor book'cause it did not deserve that because the tombs of Chuan are none of those things.

Sara:

Yeah, it this, so we're not going to do a nons spoiler section for this book because unfortunately this book suffered from mood reading for Lily and just absolute poor timing for me life. So it's gonna be a little bit of a shorter episode because Yeah. We're we're not gonna do this book justice, just saying that upfront.

Lilly:

It's so true and so unfair. This was a good book.

Sara:

it's,

Lilly:

I could, I was reading it going, I would really like this if there wasn't a 300,000 word fan fiction waiting for me,

Sara:

Yep.

Lilly:

and it's just like a completely, completely the wrong vibe to go into reading a novel.

Sara:

I mean, but that's just like, that's something that happens when you read a book a week for a podcast.

Lilly:

Yeah,

Sara:

It just, sometimes there's a great book, but you're not in the mood for it, but you gotta read it anyway.

Lilly:

so as the sequel to A Wizard of Earth Sea. When did we, did we read that last year?

Sara:

That is a great question.

Lilly:

last summer. I think.

Sara:

it was in fact last year, last summer, the episode came out June 5th.

Lilly:

Almost a year. Okay.

Sara:

Yeah, a year and a little bit.

Lilly:

How much do you remember from that book, Sarah?

Sara:

This feels like a trick question.

Lilly:

I remember just like the vague plot arcs. I couldn't tell you a single character's name.

Sara:

I could tell you the main character's name. And I feel actually like not remembering much about that book, except like you say, for for vague plot arcs didn't really matter that much for tombs of WAN specifically because. This book features a different protagonist who doesn't show up in Book one. And while we do see ged, the, the hero from, from the first book in the Tombs of wan, he only shows up like halfway through. So

Lilly:

It's really not about him, like it's, it's ours

Sara:

at all. Yeah. He, he is an important character. And he. His presence spurs a lot of change, but he's not the main character. It, this book is not about him.

Lilly:

I really liked that it was, it was a very delightful, well, a, it made it much easier for the fact that it's been so long since I've read it. Not a barrier at all, and I think someone could probably go straight to this book.

Sara:

Yeah. I don't actually think that you have to read a Wizard of Earth and the tombs of WAN in order necessarily.

Lilly:

No.

Sara:

I thought it was a really interesting choice to have a different protagonist for this book. I have heard, or rather I read on the Wikipedia page that Ahha does show up later in the series, so it seems like she is going to be a recurring character of some sort. Obviously we haven't read more of the series but I, yeah.

Lilly:

In terms of wan did feel like a more cohesive story. One of the things I remember from a Wizard of Earth Sea is how it, it's kind of meandering and it's almost episodic in that it's just like, oh, GED is a kid and he does this. Ah, he's an adolescent now. He's doing that over there. And there's, it's not as much of like a, an arc

Sara:

Yeah, I, I do think that GED does, in the first book, he. Is in a lot of very disparate situations that are linked by the fact that he is the one in them rather than linked sequentially as any kind of direct plot kind of thing, if that makes sense.

Lilly:

Yeah.

Sara:

And this definitely in, in the tombs of Twan, there's definitely progression, like. Aha goes on a journey both figuratively and literally.

Lilly:

I feel really bad for her. So she's supposed to be the reincarnation of the head priestess for these creepy old dead gods. And. They find her when she's a baby because she was born on the same day that the last priestess died, and it's not like a great childhood.

Sara:

Yeah, like she grows up. For the first five years or something with her family and that's happy. But then she's taken away to be taught in this really unpleasant sounding monastery type place with unpleasant tutors. There's a weird power dynamic because she is a child. She is learning, but she is also at the same time, the reincarnation of the priestess of the nameless ones. And so she is technically the priestess with the most power, but

Lilly:

But obviously not.

Sara:

yeah, obviously not. And the yeah. And the other two priestesses, you know, treat her like a kid because she is a kid and are more or less mean to her. One priestess is stern, but kind of nice and, and one priestess is just terrible.

Lilly:

And then Manan is sort of her man servant. He seemed sweet.

Sara:

he, he did seem sweet. I was really sad. He does die later on in the book, and I was very sad about that because he. Is, I mean, this is not a good defense. He's just doing his job. But he, he is not ill-intentioned and he does genuinely care for her. It's just he believes in the, you know, the strictures of this religion and, and is confined by its customs and practices in a way that doesn't actually help anyone.

Lilly:

Yeah, well, he's actually like warm towards her in a way that no one else is.

Sara:

Yeah, I mean, he genuinely cares for her. he does the best that he can to provide her assistance and comfort and emotional and moral support. But he is part of this culture, you know, part of this religion. And he doesn't step outside of the bounds of that.

Lilly:

Which, I mean, you're making it sound very dramatic. Doesn't he just get killed when they're trying to prevent dead from stealing a thing?

Sara:

Well, I mean, he, yes and no. He goes, because he doesn't think that she's doing the right thing by letting GED live. And he goes and follows her and then he falls off of a ledge.

Lilly:

Yeah. I like saying, well, he was just doing his job implies that he was doing something terrible.

Sara:

no, no.

Lilly:

That's all I'm saying,

Sara:

don't mean, I don't mean that, I don't mean that. He

Lilly:

He didn't know any better. I mean, no, he,

Sara:

yeah,

Lilly:

tragic that he died, but it's, he wasn't doing something sinister'cause he thought it was the right thing.

Sara:

I didn't mean that in relation to his death. I meant it in relation to like, he cares about Aha, and he does the best he can for her, but he doesn't act like he could have helped her get out of that place.

Lilly:

Ah, yes.

Sara:

You know, like he's just doing his job in that, in that sense.

Lilly:

yeah. I mean, it's a,

Sara:

he's not actually a great adult figure because it doesn't take into account what is actually best for her.

Lilly:

yeah, that's true, but I mean. It's, I mean, it's not a great childhood in my opinion, but it's also not like it's, I don't know if they're not being slayed alive or anything nuts. It's just they have shitty chores and they're being taught how to be priests and priestesses or just priestesses. I guess it's only girls,

Sara:

I think it's

Lilly:

Manan is there and he's a

Sara:

Yeah. But he's a, he's a eunuch.

Lilly:

That's true. Yeah.

Sara:

Say that men are forbidden.

Lilly:

I thought so. Yeah.

Sara:

I don't think it's a terrible childhood, but I don't think it's a particularly happy one.

Lilly:

yes, I agree with that. It's unfortunate and sad in a way that like, yeah, you want little kids to be like loved and happy, but it's also not like, I don't know.

Sara:

I mean, she's not work, she's not working in the coal

Lilly:

Yeah, exactly. I just wanna make a distinction there.

Sara:

Yeah, she's not, she's not working in the coal mines. But it's very clear in the text that she only has one friend she's very isolated because of her position as this. Priestess. She's kind of in this weird in-between place where she's not really a high priestess because she's a little kid, but she's not really one of the, one of the girls training to be priests because she is also a high priestess.

Lilly:

All of the like little comments. I remember Lewin doing an amazing job with this in the first book too, just like a, a small casual comment that tells you so much

Sara:

Yeah, she is absolutely masterful at that.

Lilly:

Like really, really incredible. And in, in this case, just throwing out like, oh yeah. And then all of the little girls went and played games and then Aha. Didn't,'cause she wasn't one of them like heartbreaking.

Sara:

Yeah. And then there's this, the scene where Aha convinces her, her one friend Penha, to like skip. Classes or something and Aha doesn't get punished. She's a high priestess. She can't get punished, but she has to watch Penha get whipped or you know, whatever. And it's just like, yeah, this power dynamic is really weird and it's no wonder Aha grows up kind of fucked up.

Lilly:

Oh, absolutely. Like, yeah, talk about indoctrination from an early age.

Sara:

Yeah,

Lilly:

She does, however, also have a conversation with Penha later. I wouldn't say they're like as much friends when they're older because they do get sort of more separated just because of the different levels of

Sara:

power structures.

Lilly:

Yeah. Power structures, that's the word. But Penha is the first person that Aha realizes is not a true believer. It's a like. I think the book phrases it as Penta introduced the concept of unbelief. Like that was just not even something that Aha knew could be a thing. Which I thought was very interesting just to even address, but also growing up in that kind of environment. I don't know. I really, I really liked Penta. She was, she had talked about how. She hoped that when she gets reincarnated, she could go be like a, a sexy dancer in a big city.

Sara:

Yeah, she was great.

Lilly:

I liked her a lot.

Sara:

She was so like warm and down to earth,

Lilly:

Yeah.

Sara:

In a, in a way that I think this book did need because. The beginning of the book especially, it was very cold and claustrophobic

Lilly:

Yes.

Sara:

So like that's Lewin doing what she sets out to do. But it meant that when Penta was on the page, I appreciated her presence all the more.

Lilly:

And it kind of mirroring the reader's experience to ahas experience in that way.

Sara:

Yeah, absolute.

Lilly:

And then also comparing penha who sort of just shrugs and grins and bears it like, yeah. I have this awful childhood because my parents like couldn't afford to feed me, so they gave me to the convent or whatever. Guess this is my life now. What a bummer. Versus Sil, who was one of the other head priestesses, who at about halfway through the, or a little after Penha opens her eyes. Yeah, she's the mean one. Aha. Realizes that she is only in it for the power and. Is also not a true believer, but like in an insidious way.

Sara:

Yeah. It's an interesting comparison between the two different varieties of unbelief.

Lilly:

Yeah.

Sara:

You know, on the one hand we do have this more, I don't wanna say innocent, but this kind of

Lilly:

Just practical approach to it.

Sara:

yeah, very pr, a very practical approach and.

Lilly:

It, it's not real, but it is my job to, you know, tend the fields and the sheep for this convent. So, okay.

Sara:

Yeah, and, and then on the other hand we have Cosal who's like, it's not real, but I'm going to use it to make myself powerful.

Lilly:

And then be really mean to people, which is, you know.

Sara:

I mean, often goes hand in hand.

Lilly:

Funny how that works. Huh? How come no one's seeking out power to like be nice and help folk?

Sara:

Sure would be nice.

Lilly:

But interestingly, Penha is not the reason why Aha eventually changes. Her arc is very different and it's more around GED and that whole, I dunno, discovering possibilities outside of what she's always known, I guess.

Sara:

Yeah, I mean, like I think, like we said earlier, GED shows up about halfway through and. He's trying to steal a thing from these tombs that Arha's in charge of. And she is both horrified because here this man is in a forbidden place, and he's, you know, bringing his light in and he's desecrating the grounds of these tombs by his presence and his light, but also really intrigued because. She's heard about wizards and wants to know more, and, you know, coastal has never told her anything useful and she ha has had an earlier experience of essentially condemning people to death for being in the tombs that has kind of traumatized her. So she doesn't really wanna do that again with GED and. It plays out in a way that means she starts talking to him and then kind of starts to think, well, maybe there is a little bit more to life than what I have here.

Lilly:

Yeah, I'm. I'm glad that GED is not the one that introduces unbelief. I think that would've been too much for his character,

Sara:

Yes, I agree.

Lilly:

having, like getting Penha and Cosell earlier on, planting the seed. Not that they plant the seed of doubt in Aha, but just the, the possibility of doubt, I guess.

Sara:

Well, I think it, it makes GED less of a focal point. Like obviously he is kind of his, his arrival is what sets off the. The big events of the book certainly the latter half of the book, but it doesn't feel like it is a About

Lilly:

steal the show.

Sara:

Yeah, yeah,

Lilly:

genuinely not about ged,

Sara:

yeah.

Lilly:

even though he's important. And I, I'm, I really appreciate that.'cause, you know, a, a book about a, a young woman growing up and, and kind of gaining independence that is triggered by a man showing up could go two very different ways.

Sara:

Yes. And yeah, it doesn't feel like it's about him. It just feels kind of like he's the catalyst, which is fine, but he's, not entirely the reason why she changes. She's, she's been changing.

Lilly:

Mm-hmm.

Sara:

He just kind of provides a, a kick to that.

Lilly:

And an opportunity right before, even if she did escape, what was she gonna do? Where would she go?

Sara:

Yeah. He essentially, his presence kind of shows her that she can escape where she hasn't thought about it before because there's not really been any contact with the outside world.

Lilly:

think I'm gonna have to reread this book like eventually.

Sara:

It was a really good book. I definitely did not my reading did not do it justice, and I would like to reread it at some point too, except that it did feel very, very claustrophobic.

Lilly:

Yeah,

Sara:

Like there's so much description of the, you know, the. Cave walls pressing in and this

Lilly:

darkness.

Sara:

yeah, the complete darkness and the labyrinth that she's navigating by touch. And I was like, oh my God. I am going to scream because I am feeling very trapped right now.

Lilly:

I, that part actually didn't bother me.

Sara:

I think I have more of a claustrophobia issue than you do.

Lilly:

possibly. I did really like her internal monologue, especially at the beginning when she is like first introduced to the tombs that she is in charge of, and her like very sort of head-on approach of, this is my domain and so I can't be afraid of it, so I'm just gonna act like I'm not, and eventually it'll be fine

Sara:

I.

Lilly:

she's what, like 14 when they first bring her down younger.

Sara:

Some, something like that. Yeah. I did really appreciate her approach to the whole thing.

Lilly:

I really liked her. She was a great main character.

Sara:

was, she, she was great. That didn't stop me from feeling any less claustrophobic, but it, wasn't because she was afraid. It was just the descriptions and I was like, oh, I, I can feel this lagu. You are too good of a writer.

Lilly:

It's actually. Like noteworthy. I usually do not do well with religious fervor in storylines. It's just not, doesn't, doesn't jam well with me. Gel, not my jam doesn't gel. It also doesn't jam. But I had no issues with that in this book. And I, I think a, because it's a very different religion than any like.

Sara:

I mean, it's, it's very obviously fantasy religion and not Christianity in a fantasy setting.

Lilly:

Right,

Sara:

But also it is a story of her kind of realizing how she doesn't have to follow this religion if she doesn't want to.

Lilly:

that's true. But even stories about that, I tend to struggle with the setup where everything's hunky dory. And I did not experience that. I think really Lagu does, does such a good job in her narrative of framing. Like she can tell you a completely innocuous fact, but frame it in such a way that you get exactly what she's trying to convey.

Sara:

I also think that it's not. Presented as all hunky dory up until the time that Aha realizes. It's not like as, as the reader, you can tell, no, this isn't actually a great way for a young girl to grow up like this. This religion is not all that.

Lilly:

Yeah, and there's also three, there's, there are two religions, two religions.

Sara:

there's, the nameless ones, there's the god king. There's a third I priest, so there must be a third one.

Lilly:

That also is part of the power struggle.'cause like the NamUs ones are supposed to be the most important, but the people who worship the currently living God king, obviously get more like money and renowned. And so there's some politics in there that I thought was really fun and interesting. And that's a lot of the tension between Aha and Koal too, right?'cause causal, I'm pretty sure is the high priestess of the God king's faction.

Sara:

Yes, I believe so.

Lilly:

They're supposed to all be working together in harmony, but surprisingly not the case.

Sara:

Yeah.

Lilly:

Yeah. When we were reading or discussing a Wizard of Earth Sea, we talked a little bit about how it's supposed to be the, the coming of age story for. That wizard archetype, you know, where did that old wizard come from? What was he like when he was a kid? And I don't feel like Aha is the backstory of an archetype in that same way. But I do think it was a really nice sort of counterpoint of what's a, I hate to say realistic. backstory for a, a boy who goes on magical adventures. But it does sort of reflect in this society, the how men and women do have different yeah.

Sara:

Yeah, I mean, I don't necessarily think that AHA is following a particular archetype, but it's funny how this conversation. That we are having right now has made me think of the myths of Avalon because I mean, and I haven't read this book since I was like probably too young to read it. not least because Marian Zimmer Bradley is, was a terrible. You know, abusive, pedophile and a horrible person, and not someone that I particularly want to support once I, once I learned the things that she had done although she is dead, so I feel less compunction about that, but terrible person. But just the, the way that Aha has grown up in this religious community does kind of make me think of, the way that many of the characters in Miss of Avalon and that whole series grow up in their Dru society community as priestesses.

Lilly:

I think what struck me or what I was trying to articulate and was doing a terrible job of At the beginning of his story, you know, he's a young boy. He runs off on an adventure. He is an apprentice under another wizard. You know, he, he's off, he's learning, he's going to school, he's exploring places. Whereas with aha, her family sends her to this religious institution. She has absolutely no say,

Sara:

or they, they allow her to be taken.

Lilly:

yeah, they allow her to be taken.

Sara:

send her, but

Lilly:

Well, I guess my point is it's not her decision

Sara:

no.

Lilly:

and she is put in circumstances that she has absolutely no control over, despite, theoretically being a high priestess. And it, it, that just feels very different. It was a very different story, which then got me thinking this story has aha. It's a, it's a much closer exploration of her growing, like emotionally as a young person and less like hijinks and adventures the way GDS was,

Sara:

Yeah, I agree with that. It's very much emotional growth and less like fantastic adventures,

Lilly:

I mean, a Wizard of Earthy spans years. it's a huge amount of time covered in that book, whereas,

Sara:

does too.

Lilly:

yeah, I guess,

Sara:

I mean, I, I think they actually span about the same number of years

Lilly:

do they, it feels like such a different scope because it's all in one place here.

Sara:

get is get is not that old when the book finishes, I don't think.

Lilly:

You're right. Yeah. I, I think it's really just the, him exploring different places and going to vastly different locations and meeting a whole new set of people each time.

Sara:

He sees a lot of the world and Aha. Sees a lot of the labyrinth.

Lilly:

Yeah. And that just makes it feel very, very different.

Sara:

Yeah.

Lilly:

Story and it cuts off before she gets to go on adventures. Right. Whereas Ed's story was following him on his adventures.

Sara:

Yeah, they are. They are very different types of coming of age stories,

Lilly:

Yeah.

Sara:

which is interesting.

Lilly:

I think I like this book better. I also do like that kind of, you know, close focus, character storytelling. But I wonder if someone who loved a Wizard of Earth Sea going into this book, like

Sara:

I can see someone who really enjoyed a Wizard of Earth Sea being disappointed in this book because it's not the same kind of story, it doesn't follow the same character. It. Has a very different kind of emotional beat, so I can see someone being disappointed in it if you didn't know anything about it and you were really like invested in GED specifically and that kind of male heroic fantasy story.

Lilly:

Do you think, what, what did we say for the first book? Like ideal age, like 10 to 12?

Sara:

Did we give an ideal age?

Lilly:

We talked about who the, like, who the reader should, like who it's meant for.

Sara:

I don't remember what we said. We could probably pull up our notes,

Lilly:

I don't, I don't, we don't need, it doesn't matter that much. I, guess.

Sara:

I don't necessarily know 10, but like, yeah, 12,

Lilly:

Middle school,

Sara:

some kind of, Young adolescent,

Lilly:

I recall there being a time, I don't know if you ever ran into this as a young reader, but. Where girls were supposed to read stories about girls and boys were supposed to read stories about boys and I, I say supposed to very loosely, but like, you know, classmates and things talking. And so it feels almost sneaky to be like, Hey, 12-year-old boy who just read a Wizard of Earth Sea. Here's a book about a girl being a real person. Trick ya.

Sara:

I do feel like LA Gwen talks a little bit about that in the author's note at the end of this book at least in the version that I read.

Lilly:

Unlike the first one, I did not read any of the accompanying stuff for this because I had toxic romance to get back to.

Sara:

It's, it's very true. You did have some important reading but I, I love reading those kinds of, like author's notes. I have turned into, over the course of this podcast, I have turned into the, the kind of person who reads the acknowledgements. In, in a book. But she does talk about the origins of this book and how when she was writing the story in 1969, there weren't really a lot of female heroes in. Heroic fantasy. Like, like this. And yeah, it just, yeah.

Lilly:

I really appreciated the representation, but, but by still making a different type of story, she didn't fall into that pitfall of write the exact same thing, but make it a girl character instead. Right. It kind of acknowledges that. The way girls come of age does, does tend to be different.

Sara:

Mm-hmm.

Lilly:

And now is that necessarily a good thing? That's not what we're here to talk about.

Sara:

Yeah, that is outside of the scope of this podcast.

Lilly:

Well, like I said, I, I think I would like to reread this book when I'm looking for something that feels nostalgic, but I don't know all of. Well, all of the two works by Le Guin that we've read have both kind of felt like nostalgic in a way, even though I hadn't read them before. Just because they are that like tone.

Sara:

Yeah, I don't know if I would call them nostalgic for myself specifically, but they do hit that classic fantasy itch for me,

Lilly:

Yeah.

Sara:

which is a. A genre or a form of fantasy that I really enjoy like no shade to modern fantasy, but it is very different in writing style and feeling from classic fantasy. And sometimes I just want the, the classic fantasy vibe.

Lilly:

Yeah, the classic fantasy, but with none of the like, Ooh, that didn't age well,

Sara:

Yeah. Yeah, like, like none of, none of the misogyny and sexism that doesn't age well. I am also looking forward to rereading this book, but I think I want to do it after we have read More of Earth Sea,

Lilly:

Yeah.

Sara:

because I think I want to see what I get out of it, knowing more of her story

Lilly:

Yeah. I like that idea.

Sara:

Given, given that she apparently shows up in, in later books.

Lilly:

Mm-hmm. I'm really excited to see what she does. Like Lein basically goes, alright, aha, here's the wide, wide world in front of you and nope, no more. I'm not telling you.

Sara:

Yep. Well, but that's a, that's a whole different story. Like,

Lilly:

That's true.

Sara:

you know, this, this book ends, I think, in the right place.

Lilly:

Oh, it does. That was just me really liking her as a character and going, but, but wait.

Sara:

But there is more.

Lilly:

Yeah. I'm, I'm glad I am excited to read more of this series.

Sara:

Yeah. Yeah. It's, it's been fun. It's not something, I did own a couple of earthy books prior to reading them for the podcast, but I don't think I'd ever read them. So it is fun to explore more.

Lilly:

yeah.

Sara:

Thank you so much for listening to this episode of Fiction Fans.

Lilly:

Come disagree with us. We're on Blue Sky and Instagram at Fiction Fans Pod. You can also email us at Fiction fans pod@gmail.com or leave a comment on YouTube.

Sara:

If you enjoyed the episode, please rate interview on Spotify and Apple Podcasts and follow us wherever your podcasts live.

Lilly:

We also have a Patreon where you can support us and occasionally vote on which book we'll read. Like for this episode,

Sara:

Thanks again for listening, and may your villains always be defeated.

Lilly:

bye.