The House On Utopia Way by Stefan Mohamed

Your hosts discuss The House on Utopia Way, Stefan Mohamed’s surreal, genre-blending detective noir novel. They talk about (not) getting lost in the weirdness of the setting, metaphors that feel natural, and how important it is to have sympathetic characters who bring it all together.

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Thanks to the following musicians for the use of their songs:

- Amarià for the use of “Sérénade à Notre Dame de Paris”
- Josh Woodward for the use of “Electric Sunrise”
- Scott Buckley for the use of “Twilight Echo”

- Darkest Child by Kevin MacLeod

Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 4.0 License

Transcript

Lilly 0:04

Hello and welcome to Fiction Fans, a podcast where we read books and other words too. I'm Lily.

Sara 0:10

And I'm Sarah, and today we will be discussing the House on Utopia Way by Stefan. Mohammed.

Lilly 0:17

But first we have our quick five minute introduction. Sarah, what's something great that happened recently?

Sara 0:24

Obviously gotta be attending Worldcon. Like there's no question that that has to be the good thing. But I'm not gonna talk about that at length because we will be doing and. Exclusive episode for our Patreon supporters, where we talk about our worldcon experience, our first Worldcon experience. So if you're interested in that, go support us on Patreon.

Lilly 0:46

Yes, we'll probably be posting clips elsewhere, but if you want the full story, in the interest of not having the exact same answer as you. Because I was attending Worldcon for three weeks or however long it was. Our tomato plants went absolutely nuts. We picked two buckets of tomatoes after we got home at the end of Worldcon yesterday.

Sara 1:10

Oh wow.

Lilly 1:11

It was incredible. And there were even some that had fallen, like had over ripened and fallen to the ground. And that was exciting. So, yay.

Sara 1:18

I'm still kind of bummed that we didn't like sit outside eating tomatoes and drinking gin and tonics.

Lilly 1:24

We fully intended to, and it was gonna be lovely. But then we were sitting in the convention center for 12 hours. Instead, we should have known,

Sara 1:33

We should have known,

Lilly 1:35

what are you drinking tonight?

Sara 1:36

I thought about drinking whiskey because that seems like a very topical drink for a detective noir novel. And indeed our hero drinks whiskey occasionally but he also drinks wine, so I'm having a glass of wine instead.

Lilly 1:52

I'm having my patented box wine with sparkling water, wine, spritzer garbage drink.

Sara 2:01

I'm also drinking boxed Wine Trader Joe's Box Wine, which is not my favorite boxed wine. I have discovered.

Lilly 2:08

Yeah, I'm not sure I've tried it.

Sara 2:10

Yeah, this is the first time I've tried it too. other boxed wine is better.

Lilly 2:15

Well, have you read anything good lately?

Sara 2:18

Does it count as reading if we listened to authors read their work?

Lilly 2:24

I think so. I mean, that's like a do audio books count as reading, which is not a question we're tackling tonight.

Sara 2:30

No. Audio books definitely count as reading. I just, I guess, I mean.

Lilly 2:34

Does attending an author reading count? Yeah.

Sara 2:37

So in that case, yes because we attended some readings at Worldcon and they were great. I loved hearing Andrea Hairston read from her latest novel, the title of which I cannot remember at the moment.

Lilly 2:52

I'm gonna look it up. Hold on.

Sara 2:55

It starts with an m. It's like mind something.

Lilly 2:58

mindscape.

Sara 3:00

Yes, that Andrea Hairston is such a performer that her reading short though it was, was incredible.

Lilly 3:10

I, I think my favorite from the, that was Writers with Drinks organized by Charlie Jane Anders, and there were like four or five different. reading that evening, but I think the, my favorite was the excerpt by Cecilia Tan. We did walk in late, so I don't actually, I assume it was from the siren and the sword'cause that was the picture that was projected up on the wall. But that is a guess. I'm pretty sure I'm right. And it was really fun and I'm excited to probably gonna pick that book up and read, read more of it. I say like, I'm not doing podcast reading 24 7.

Sara 3:48

I mean, aspirational.

Lilly 3:50

Yes. Well, we are here to talk about the house on Utopia Way. we often mention that poor authors have to deal with readers having lives and bringing weird bullshit to their books that they weren't expecting. This is not a bad thing, but. I have had the song Utopia Parkway by fountains of Wayne stuck in my head for the last week and a half.

Sara 4:18

Yes,

Lilly 4:18

constantly

Sara 4:20

there are worse songs to get stuck in your head.

Lilly 4:23

there. Yeah, it's not a problem. It's just not related to this book at all. So it was a little distracting.

Sara 4:30

I did really enjoy this book, though. It is weird.

Lilly 4:35

But it was the best kind of weird,

Sara 4:37

It, I, I felt like I should be doing acid while reading this book.

Lilly 4:42

the acidic Jews that was my favorite. So at one point, our main character is walking through a, a neighborhood full of a bunch of different religious sects. But they're all extremely different from our worlds because. Of things that we're not gonna talk about,

Sara 4:59

Everything from our world has kind of gotten like garbled. It's like a, it, it's like a game of telephone, you know, where it starts out, the R world's version or you know, name or phrase or mythology or whatever, and then it gets distorted by the time it reaches this book.

Lilly 5:22

so. There. There was the group of acidic Jews wearing tie-dyed robes instead of, of course, Hasidic Jews. Yeah. Anyway, I'm sure the transcript of this is gonna really love that sentence and totally understand what I was saying

Sara 5:36

Sorry to everyone who reads the transcript.

Lilly 5:40

there. There are some other really great, like familiar enough that I could immediately recognize the reference. But just twisted in a way that was not off-putting,'cause it was fun, but like, very arresting.

Sara 5:57

I really, I really enjoyed how every time the characters said a word that was what we would call French, I mean a word in French.

Lilly 6:08

J quo, like a, a phrase that is common in English. They weren't like speaking French.

Sara 6:13

Yeah. Right. They weren't speaking French. It was a common phrase in English, but it's a French phrase originally. And the character with whom they were speaking would say, I didn't know you spoke German.

Lilly 6:25

My favorite were the incorrect idioms. Like they really pulled the fool over my eyes. And, oh, there was another really good one that I. Highlighted I, it's far through the book, but I don't think just the idiom is a spoiler, masters of none. Spoiling the broth was, it's just like so good and like makes you bristle a little bit, but in such an intentional, fun way.

Sara 6:53

Yeah. Also like all of the talk about Excalibur, which they recognize as a sword, but according to legends, it's a sword made from the bladed right arm of the Nazi God. Cali, who's the founder of the Nazi cult, like just wild

Lilly 7:10

Yeah. So the, the book doesn't start, actually, no, it does start pretty much throwing you into the deep end.

Sara 7:18

would say. So.

Lilly 7:19

our main character. Johnny Orange is a detective because he can see things that are really there, whereas other people in this world or in this city, it's very clear that there is just a city and there is nothing else but this city, everyone's very, I'm gonna say suggestible, even though that's not really correct, because it's kind of a, like a, a psychic suggestibility from the places where they are.

Sara 7:45

So people live in neighborhoods within the city, but the neighborhoods are very clearly bounded and have their own kind of like,

Lilly 8:00

Rogue signals is kind of the phrase that gets thrown around in the beginning of the book

Sara 8:04

like, like all of the cities kind of have their own, like not just, or all of.

Lilly 8:10

neighborhoods.'cause there's only one

Sara 8:11

Yeah. All of the neighborhoods have their own like, not culture, but like their own kind of universe bubble. It's like a bunch of different little universes in one city in a sense.

Lilly 8:28

And crossing over from one neighborhood to the other can drive you mad. And often like, so people generally don't leave their neighborhood, they're all sort of in their own like very insular little worlds, except for some people who are, are less susceptible than others. Like our main character, Johnny Orange, who is, I mean, not unaffected. If he was like the chosen one who was just totally immune, that would've been really lame

Sara 8:53

Yeah, he's definitely affected. He just is less affected.

Lilly 8:57

and he can recognize it when it's happening in a way that I think. Unusual.

Sara 9:02

Yes.

Lilly 9:03

So it's a detective story, like you said, like noir. This is a first person perspective in a way that didn't bother me at all. I think partially because it is just so assumed for this genre that like, yes, the detective will be talking to you.

Sara 9:18

Yeah, I mean like that's a, a conversation with the genre, with the detective novel trope.

Lilly 9:26

Yeah, but also. This book is so fucking weird that I'm wasn't ever thinking why is he talking to me? I was more wondering why is this Raven bringing him candy cigarettes?

Sara 9:40

Yeah, like why? Why is he smoking strawberries?

Lilly 9:43

There were much more important questions, so, just delight and so just strange. It really commits to it. This book never shies away from going all in on the oddities.

Sara 10:01

And I think that's what makes it work like it is. It is fully committed to what it's doing. It's not getting to a point and then drawing back because it's scared. Like Mohamed absolutely goes for it.

Lilly 10:15

Yes. And it's still consistent in a way that makes it not difficult to read. So I mean. This book has nothing in common with House of Leaves, except that house of Leaves is kind of the, the obvious example of an experimental strange book. That one you kind of have to fight with. I've never actually finished it. I've gotten like a quarter of the way through twice.

Sara 10:38

I've never read it, so I can't, I can't speak to it.

Lilly 10:41

I, I love that it exists, but, house on Utopia way. On the other hand, you have to meet Stefan Mohammad halfway, right? You, if you're picking up this book, except that it's going to be bonkers, but if you're, you know, on board with that, if you're willing to play in that sandbox, it's not fighting you every step of the way

Sara 11:06

You will be confused, but it will be a good confusion,

Lilly 11:10

and not like,

Sara 11:12

not a frustrating one.

Lilly 11:13

it, it's. Even though the world is confusing and overwhelming, I mean it's, it's a detective novel. There's a very clear goal, he's given a job, he's looking for a missing person. Like the plot is, I'm gonna say, easy to follow. Obviously there's a lot of stuff going on, and I don't wanna make it sound like it's overly simplistic or anything, but I think having that really strong, straightforward core helps bring you through. All of the other crazy stuff going on.

Sara 11:45

Yes, I would agree with that because like you kind of need. One thing in the novel or in any novel, like I'm talking in, in generals right now, like you kind of need one thing in a novel to be easy to follow so that when you do have all of the weirdness, it's not too much and, and too overwhelming. And in this case, you know, like that is this detective novel plot where he's looking for someone. It does, it does change a little bit near the end by, but by that

Lilly 12:18

Yeah,

Sara 12:20

by that point, you are kind of more used to the weirdness of the world and so it's easier, gets easier to navigate.

Lilly 12:30

yeah. You, you kind of find your footing and. You return to characters that you've met and places you've been, and they are, you know, familiar and recognizable. It's not just like, I don't know, this book doesn't fuck with you on purpose. It's clearly setting out to accomplish a goal. And does

Sara 12:50

Yeah, the the goal, the goal is not to fuck with you.

Lilly 12:54

Yeah. Just have I, if you picked it up going, this is a Detective noir novel, you'd probably be a little confused.

Sara 13:02

Yes.

Lilly 13:03

So just know that it, it, it does some really fun stuff with And what would you say? Fantasy surrealism. It's surreal, I think is what this book is.

Sara 13:13

Yeah, surrealism. I think that's, that's a very good descriptor.

Lilly 13:18

Yeah. Even to the point where. Well, we really can't talk about it, but there are some formatting things that happen. I think that's also why I pulled the House of Leaves reference,

Sara 13:29

Yeah. Like.

Lilly 13:30

again, in this book, it's much less frustrating.

Sara 13:33

we, we can't talk about it because it does happen at the end of the book. And so the content of the formatting, like fun stuff is spoilers, but the fact that it does play with formatting is not a spoiler, I don't think.

Lilly 13:48

I really,

Sara 13:49

I will say,

Lilly 13:50

oh,

Sara 13:51

I will say I read this as an ebook and I did find some of the formatting. Hard to read because I was reading on my phone, which is a very small screen.

Lilly 14:03

I was gonna say the

Sara 14:04

Yeah, yeah. So it would've, it would've been easier to read. I think that would've been easier to read on an actual physical book or even a larger like iPad, but.

Lilly 14:15

I, I was gonna say the same thing, but maybe from a slightly different angle. I keep thinking, oh, maybe I am like favoring eBooks more than physical books. They're more sustainable, they're more portable you know, a thousand other things. And then something like this book. Runs across my desk and it's like, oh no, I do, I do need to go buy the physical book though. Like I need to see what this is intended to look like on a page.

Sara 14:42

Yeah.

Lilly 14:43

As batch it as this setting is. There are still some metaphors for our world, I would say Not in a preachy or even very. Obvious way. I mean, it's, it's not that it's not obvious,

Sara 14:59

It, it's not,

Lilly 15:01

it's not the point of the book.

Sara 15:03

yeah, I was gonna say it's not overt. I mean, like, it's there but it's something you could ignore if you don't wanna read into it.

Lilly 15:11

There's two that I'm going to mention.

Sara 15:16

I think there's a, there's a third, but it's definitely a spoiler that I would like to talk about.

Lilly 15:23

Okay. The city is made up of hundreds of many worlds disconnected from one another, ignoring one another, if at all possible, yet somehow still existing side by side. There is no narrative and that I really felt like a comment on. I would say like. Internet forum silos and echo chambers and how people have gotten very kind of wrapped up in their own little shit. Small world, that that was a mixed sentence that I just made. You get what I'm saying though? And, but it's not hitting you over the head with it. Like the, I pulled out the phrase that makes it like pretty clear when you're reading it. But it's not, oh, yes. This whole world is a metaphor for modern internet culture. Like, it's not, not any of that.

Sara 16:14

Right.

Lilly 16:15

It just, it just gives, makes it feel more, I don't, grounded is not the right word. That was another element of this book that made it relatable and familiar, even though that in a sad way, because that is a sad thing that's happening. The other one is about the Nazis. A bunch of us have been saying for a very long time, if those Nazis patches, neighborhoods were left, unchecked, ignored, indulged, eventually they'd spill out and start starting shit, and still people continue to leave them unchecked, ignored and indulged. Hell, some people refuse to believe they even exist. That was, that was, those were my two that I was like. Yeah, you're going somewhere with this.

Sara 16:58

Yeah, and like I said, I have another one, but it is definitely a spoiler and we can't talk about it now.

Lilly 17:05

The other thing I wanted to bring up in the nons spoiler section is what I'm gonna call the emotional core of this book. Although again, there's a, there's a lot going on and I'm only bringing up the aspects of it that I can talk about without spoiling.'cause there is. So much happening in this novel. Read it if you are in any way interested in, I know I'm jumping ahead to the question, but

Sara 17:29

And you're answering it instead of me. I'm not gonna complain though.

Lilly 17:33

your answer? While this book is, well, it starts with the detective tropes. It ends up being sort of surrealist and experimental but still warm and human in a way that is like so perfect. This, this book was written for me. Okay. We'll move that. We'll, we'll talk about it again during the spoiler section. Listeners, you probably just heard a little bit of some bleeping. I got too excited. It probably could be construed as not a spoiler, but I think. Out of respect for all the crazy places this book goes. We will, we will wait.

Sara 18:14

Yeah, I, I mean, I agree with you that I don't necessarily think it's inherently a spoiler, but, it's not mentioned in the blurb, in the, in the cover back back matter, so,

Lilly 18:26

Alright. Just trust me, bro. It's also very warm and there's some really delight like.

Sara 18:32

well, I mean, what makes the story work is the characterization and the relationships between the characters like that is at the core of this novel. And that along with the relatively simple starting plot like that really keeps you invested in all of the weirdness that's going on,

Lilly 18:56

100%. I agree. Yeah. So once those characters start,'cause you meet Johnny and Orange, who's fun and quirky and like, let's find out what his deal is. But as we start getting introduced to, well, people he meets and people he has known,

Sara 19:10

like the larger cast.

Lilly 19:12

exactly. And, and his relationships with them.'cause I, I do still love Johnny, but he doesn't exist alone. He has, you know, his people around him and. That's when I was like, yes, this book is it. It's going somewhere.

Sara 19:31

Yeah.

Lilly 19:32

And I already did the, who should read this book? So our transition to spoilers is ruined.

Sara 19:38

However, we can now move on to spoilers because clearly we have a lot to talk about.

Lilly 19:44

I know, but it's like, so much happens in this book that we can't talk about it yet. So this is, this is just gonna be one of those. Trust me, bro. It's good. Go read it. This episode of Fiction Fans is brought to you by fiction fans.

Sara 20:02

That's us. We really appreciate our patrons because otherwise we fund this podcast entirely ourselves,

Lilly 20:08

Patrons can find weekly bonus content. Monthly exclusive episodes and have free access to our biannual zine solstice.

Sara 20:16

or at least we aim to get them out monthly. We're not

Lilly 20:19

yeah, there are 12 exclusive episodes a year. It's maybe the more accurate way to say it.

Sara 20:26

Anyway, you can find all of that and more at patreon.com/fiction fans pod. Thank you for all of your support.

Lilly 20:34

The remainder of this episode contains spoilers.

Sara 20:42

Okay, so before I forget my thought,

Lilly 20:44

Yes.

Sara 20:45

unless you had something else that you wanted to talk about first.

Lilly 20:47

I just wanna talk about how much I love Toby,

Sara 20:50

Okay, but, but before I, before I forget my thought, the other metaphor that I wanted to talk about in earlier in our nons spoiler section was rich people and their self-confidence.

Lilly 21:03

Ah, yes, yes.

Sara 21:04

Because there's a scene where Johnny Orange and

Lilly 21:08

Bloody Marie. Oh, yes.

Sara 21:10

Who is the. Woman that he was first contracted to find Spoiler, he finds her under a different name plot Twist. Yes. They go off looking for stuff and eventually they, they come to this the old country, which is where all of the like super duper wealthy people are. And Misty at one point tries to hit one of the wealthy people with the Sodic caliber and fails completely. Like it just, it bounces off of him. And the explanation is that it's his self-confidence, like he doesn't think that anything will touch him, so nothing does. That really yeah, reminded me of wealthy people in the real world for better or for worse.

Lilly 22:03

And that it's kind of introduced earlier though, too, and that's one of the reasons why as unhinged as this book gets, or unraveled, I should say it, it's still cohesive. You can still follow it. There's foreshadowing earlier Johnny Recounts and interacts with a man who. Is a mime. He mimed a terrorist attack and convinced 50 people that they were dead. So they just lied down and fell asleep, laid down, and fell asleep. I do grammar and so I. Going back and like finding that like discussion and how he can like bend the rain and the storm around them just through sheer force of will was such like a really nice, it doesn't feel like foreshadowing at the time because instead it feels like a payoff from all of the mime things that were being dropped.'cause like what do you mean your arch nemesis was a mime? Like what the fuck?

Sara 23:03

Yeah, it's,

Lilly 23:03

And so then

Sara 23:04

layers of foreshadowing.

Lilly 23:06

Yes. Then we meet him and it feels like a big reveal and like a huge payoff. And then it turns out that was also just setting up. Not just setting up. Also setting up like the main confrontation at the end.

Sara 23:19

Yeah. Incredible layers.

Lilly 23:22

Layers. Okay. I do need to talk about Toby and Arthur though,'cause they loved them so

Sara 23:27

They're so sweet.

Lilly 23:29

So the second person that Johnny Orange is sent to find, I started going into this at the beginning. I think I'm just gonna have cut it out and we're going to redo it. But if it sounds like I'm rehearsed, it's because I did this five minutes ago and the person that Johnny Orange is higher find is Arthur. He's like, I think he's supposed to be like 14 or 15. His parents want. Johnny to find their missing kid, except they are robots. Mr. And Mrs. Mobius, and they have built a son. They, they've constructed their child and as we find out pretty quickly he left because they suck.

Sara 24:08

Yes. They live in a very enclosed enclave in the city. Not the old country, but a

Lilly 24:17

Upper middle class, not ultra wealthy.

Sara 24:20

Exactly, and they are super protective. Like they don't let him leave the house. They monitor all of his like actions. It's a just a really claustrophobic way to live for him. So when he sees his opportunity to leave, he takes it understandably

Lilly 24:38

He meets Toby, who is a

Sara 24:41

whom he, he has met previously.

Lilly 24:43

okay, but he runs off with

Sara 24:45

He runs off with Toby.

Lilly 24:47

Who is a, what would you hoodlum, hooligan,

Sara 24:51

Yeah, he, he is from a neighborhood which is basically,

Lilly 24:55

roving bands of teens.

Sara 24:57

yeah, roving bands of teens doing stuff. It actually, weirdly reminded me, this is a tangent that is not there, there is some relevance, but it's not particularly

Lilly 25:07

I got a few of those coming. Don't worry.

Sara 25:10

There is a book that I read when I was like eight or nine, like I was, I was young in school and it's about what happens when all of the adults die off for some reason. And it's just kids who are left in the world. This kind of like weird dystopia and some of them band together. And I that, that book, like I read and reread that book, I should reread it and see what the fuck I was thinking.

Lilly 25:41

the nostalgia book club. Dude, that sounds like a perfect candidate.

Sara 25:45

it should, I'm pretty sure I still have my copy of it. Like it was, it was that important to me as a child. But yeah, this particular neighborhood really reminded me of that just core concept.

Lilly 25:57

I, yeah, sounds like it. I have, I'm sorry. I have nothing to add to that.

Sara 26:01

I told he was a, it was an only semi relevant tangent.

Lilly 26:05

But, okay. And this was when I fell in love with our main character Johnny.'cause he finds Arthur in this band of roving teens. And he sees him holding someone's hand. And Johnny's reaction is, oh, I can't take this kid back.

Sara 26:22

Yeah. Johnny is like, you know, Arthur, you. Your parents would probably appreciate it if you told them where you were, but I'm not gonna force you to go back because you're happy you have a boyfriend. It's great.

Lilly 26:36

This is clearly like a choice that you made. And now in our world, maybe a 14-year-old is not thinking everything through to run off with their boyfriend and live on the streets, but that's obviously not the world they're in. I just, Johnny's like instinct to go, oh, I will defend this child with my life was just so sweet and wonderful. Toby can't, or Toby is the, the friend, I think. Yeah, we said that already can't stand Johnny Orange, which was also delightful and felt correct. Even though Johnny's constantly like. I said I wasn't gonna do it. I'm not gonna kidnap Arthur Toby is just like his parents sent you. You're bad. It's very funny. It's very 15-year-old,

Sara 27:24

It is, it's very 15-year-old.

Lilly 27:27

Just these two kids. Like, to me are really like the, the heart and, and just Johnny's reaction to them and he's not trying to be their friend. And then of course, you know, oh no, bounty hunters complicates things. Although also simplifies it because instead of trying to convince them of one thing or another, it just turns into keep them alive and away from the bounty hunters. Very straightforward goals and clear. Like problems to solve Survive.

Sara 28:01

Yes.

Lilly 28:02

Yeah. I just, I loved them so much. And the like evolving relationship. There are a couple of moments where Johnny goes, oh no, I probably should be comforting them right now and I don't know what to do, so I'm just gonna stand here. But then.

Sara 28:18

around them like not, not because he felt. He didn't care for them, but just because he is like, I don't know what to do with teenagers. I loved it.

Lilly 28:29

and then by the end he doesn't, hes, I, I guess spoiler section Arthur, near the end, kills his parents to save Johnny and their little group of misfits off on a quest and. Didn't hesitate, but obviously has a breakdown because holy shit. And Johnny just jumps in and gives him a hug and like, doesn't try to tell him it's gonna be okay because that's fucked up. But it was like that, that growth, their evolving relationship. But also Johnny's evolving emotional intelligence as he's forced to interact with people.'cause he was so isolated at the beginning.

Sara 29:06

Yeah. Well, and it's also because as we find out through the novel, like. He doesn't have all of his memories, like his memories are also lying to him. So I think that contributes to some of his isolation and not understanding how to interact with people.

Lilly 29:23

Yeah, absolutely. Well, my random tangent about something that this book reminded me of is. Okay. Johnny finds both people he's meant to find and then they end up going on a quest to figure out what the fuck is going on with their city. Why is it so crazy? And so they're going up far, far, far north, there's a wall. They think Arthur can maybe get through it somehow'cause he is super strong. They guess they're just kind of operating on vibes. It's great. They think that the answer will be on the other side of this

Sara 30:01

They're looking for the old country. They think the old country holds all of the answers.

Lilly 30:05

and I mean, they do find the old country, but

Sara 30:07

And they do find answers, but not,

Lilly 30:10

the answers they

Sara 30:11

yeah, not the answers they want.

Lilly 30:13

So the final patch or neighborhood before the wall is. The end of days, is that what it's called? Yes. The end of days it's, they've at first think it's kind of like a festival or a carnival, but then it ends up being like weird and sex stuff, but not like the

Sara 30:38

Not the fun kind.

Lilly 30:39

kind.

Sara 30:41

It's, it's like sex stuff, but also horror.

Lilly 30:44

Yeah. And it, which is. You're right. It did remind me exactly of Hellraiser by Clive Barker. Not Hellraiser though. The second book, shit. I should have looked this up before we started recording The Scarlet Gospels by Clive Barker. It is the sequel to Hellbound Heart, which is the book that the movie Hellraiser was based on. Actually both were by Clive Barker. So. You know, same, same story. In the Scarlet Gospels, though, the main character descends into hell to find someone who gets kidnapped by the Seno Bytes. Pinhead and his experience of hell as run by the Seno Bytes. Who, for those of you who don't know Sarah Cena bytes are these. Kind of demons. I mean, they live in hell. So yeah, demons who don't differentiate between pain and pleasure. They're BDSM demons. And Clive Barker's version is, I'm gonna say more hardcore and a little more I. It's more of the point. I mean, that's like the, the whole fucking book is about it. Whereas in house, on Utopia Way, this is just a little patch that they're traveling through. But just that like, I mean, BDSM demons, that's exactly what it was.

Sara 32:07

It does sound like similar vibes.

Lilly 32:09

Yes. Although this is a little bit more lighthearted because then the, you know, the dominatrix queen is like, how dare you not partake in our weird sex stuff? We're gonna do this awful thing and that awful thing. And then Misty just shoots her in the head and is like, no, goodbye. And everyone everyone is in all of the, I'm gonna just say eNotes, all of

Sara 32:31

the, the denizens of this neighborhood.

Lilly 32:34

Yeah. Or like, oh fuck, goodbye. Feel free to leave. It was, that was a very good moment. But yeah, very Clive Barker in that moment as well.

Sara 32:47

so the ending of this book, because I think we are getting close to, to the end of the book is really wild. This is, this is where the main like formatting stuff that we're talking about in the Nons spoiler section happens. But

Lilly 33:03

Yeah, our main character, so after they have their confrontation in the old country, the. Do I even say it like in chronological order? I feel like we need a double spoiler section.

Sara 33:17

I actually kind of don't wanna spoil the ending, even though this is the spoiler section.

Lilly 33:23

okay. I'm not gonna talk about how they destroy the world.

Sara 33:28

Yes.

Lilly 33:30

They choose to destroy the world because. The ultra wealthy have this system. That is the only thing creating what little order there is. And Johnny Orange and all of his friends say, this isn't good enough. Like

Sara 33:48

Yeah, this is an exploitative system. You are, you are exploiting everyone who lives in the city, so you can enjoy your wealth in order.

Lilly 33:56

And you know, the people maintaining. status quo say, well, if you destroy the status quo, then there will be, you know, chaos. It'll be so much worse. And they say, that's a gamble we're willing to take. And so they destroy the world. Read the book. We have jumped very far to the end, but holy shit, the journey to get there is incredible. There's time jumping. The chapter numbers don't go in chronological order, which was so cool, which I guess is another formatting thing that this book does.

Sara 34:29

Yes.

Lilly 34:31

but as the world is unraveling, the, the font gets like pulled apart and letters start disappearing and. I do wish I, I'm gonna have to get this as a physical

Sara 34:42

Yeah, like I, I need this as a physical copy to see that on the page.

Lilly 34:47

Yeah. I, I want to know if the way I saw it, how close that was to intended, right? Like, I mean, obviously it was intended, but

Sara 34:57

Right, but, but eBooks also because they're, and I forget, yeah, they're dynamic, you know, like they change depending on the screen size. And so it is not necessarily going to be exactly what was intended. Although it can get pretty close, but.

Lilly 35:14

But when it is something like this. Whether a lion is on one page or the next can really affect your reading experience. It's like poetry. Poetry as an ebook does not work for me for that same reason.

Sara 35:29

poetry is an ebook. Unless it's poetry that doesn't necessarily care about the formatting as much. Can be hard. Yeah, I agree.

Lilly 35:39

But my gosh. And then there's a little bit of a hopeful ending.

Sara 35:44

It's, it's very kind of like ambiguous and open-ended. I mean, we do see Johnny and Misty like wake up in a world afterwards, but it, there's no explanation as to what's going on really.

Lilly 36:00

Which they also don't know, right? They're we, it, it leaves with them going, what the fuck?

Sara 36:06

Yeah.

Lilly 36:07

Except then you hear the tapping on the window, which means sorrow. Presumably, I'm assuming means that sorrow was coming.

Sara 36:15

Or it could have been the other Raven RAAs,

Lilly 36:18

Maybe yes,

Sara 36:19

which I may be mispronouncing. It's a Welsh word that means like homesickness or something. Longing for home.

Lilly 36:28

but holy shit. Talk about a metaphor. the ultrawealthy saying, don't dismantle our systems, because it'll just be even worse. And the common people calling their bluff and having it. We don't know how it works out, but I think the book says that in this case, there's an optimistic ending.

Sara 36:51

I think so too. I, I did come away from this book feeling good about the ending and not like depressed.

Lilly 36:59

Yeah. You, you, at least as the reader, you are in a good mood at the end. Maybe everything's terrible. I don't know. No one knows.

Sara 37:07

No, no one knows, but like, that's not really, that's not the vibe I got from the end.

Lilly 37:12

No. And because this book had really prepared me for this, like off kilter feeling basically the whole time, I had no problem with such an open ending, open-ended ending.

Sara 37:27

Yeah. Agreed. A hundred percent.

Lilly 37:29

It like really fits if the novel had tied up with a perfect bow and everyone lived happily ever after,

Sara 37:35

It wouldn't

Lilly 37:35

where they are 10 years later,

Sara 37:37

yeah, it wouldn't have been appropriate. Like this was the ending that this book required.

Lilly 37:43

Mm-hmm. Yeah, I agree. It was so fucking good. I really loved this book.

Sara 37:47

Yeah, it was just weird in the best way.

Lilly 37:52

Yeah, and not in a difficult way. I know I keep harping on that, but I've, there are definitely books that try to be weird and then just end up fighting. You

Sara 38:02

Well, okay. So this book to me felt a little bit like the kind of weird that people who use AI to write wish they could do but can't because AI is like, has no soul. Yeah.

Lilly 38:16

I, I believe you. I'm not super par plugged into that conversation,

Sara 38:22

Yeah. Like it it was, it was good. Weird.

Lilly 38:25

yeah.

Sara 38:25

Yeah,

Lilly 38:27

Is

Sara 38:27

was excellent.

Lilly 38:29

what else has he written?

Sara 38:30

This is his fifth novel I believe.

Lilly 38:34

Oh, he is a spoken word performer. A fucking course he is. That fits, slash complimentary for the record. Well, I, this definitely makes me wanna read more of his work.

Sara 38:47

Yeah. Yeah, agreed. I had a great time with this book. Again, I did feel like I should be tripping on acid the entire time, but I had a great time with it.

Lilly 39:01

Thank you so much for listening to this episode of Fiction Fans.

Sara 39:05

Come disagree with us! We're on Blue Sky and Instagram, at fictionfanspod. You can also email us at fictionfanspod at gmail. com. Or leave a comment on YouTube.

Lilly 39:16

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Sara 39:24

We also have a Patreon where you can support us and find exclusive episodes and a lot of other nonsense.

Lilly 39:30

Thanks again for listening, and may your villains always be defeated.

Sara 39:34

Bye!