The Last Song of Penelope by Claire North

Your hosts see Odysseus back on Ithaca in The Last Song of Penelope, the final book in the Songs of Penelope Trilogy by Claire North. They talk about impossible love triangles, poorly thought out revenge strategies, and how badly Athena needs a hug.

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Thanks to the following musicians for the use of their songs:

- Amarià for the use of “Sérénade à Notre Dame de Paris”
- Josh Woodward for the use of “Electric Sunrise”

Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 4.0 License

Transcript

Lilly 0:03

Hello and welcome to Fiction Fans, a podcast where we read books and other words too. I'm Lily.

Sara 0:09

I'm Sarah, and today we will be talking about the last song of Penelope by Claire North, which is the final novel in her songs of Penelope Trilogy.

Lilly 0:20

we get into that, our quick five minute introduction, what is something great that happened recently?

Sara 0:27

I'm gonna say that my good thing for this episode is that dumpling has finally interacted with the little girl who lives on the next block over who loves the pugs. And so,

Lilly 0:42

Dumpling being a pug herself.

Sara 0:44

dumpling being a pug herself. Yes. Dumpling being my newest, most traumatized pug. And so the, the little girl spent some time petting her and I think Dumpling was happy. But also it's just good for dumpling to like interact with people because her first family did not socialize her really at all. I don't think

Lilly 1:07

we'll go for dumpling. I finally made banana bread. I've been meaning to do it for like two weeks.

Sara 1:13

you did promise me banana bread when I visited and I did not. I did not get banana bread.

Lilly 1:19

It was kind of rough though. Normally when I bake I'm like, oh, domestic goddess floating around my kitchen, feeding people I love. But I was, you know, about halfway through this book, all about how women are devalued. And so this was the angriest banana bread. I was sitting there matching bananas, like, I'm making this for me because I wanna eat it. So, it doesn't come out in the banana, but it still tastes good. But

Sara 1:49

A bit of a different experience making it.

Lilly 1:51

very much so. What are you drinking today?

Sara 1:55

I have. Some oolong tea.

Lilly 1:58

Hmm. Lovely. I am drinking a can of iced coffee, blue Mountain blend, apparently.'cause it's fucking hot today, so.

Sara 2:08

Yeah, iced coffee is good.

Lilly 2:11

Have you read anything good lately besides podcast reading?

Sara 2:15

I actually did do a little bit of personal reading last night. After I finished the last song of Penelope, I finally finished the book of Tolkien scholarship that I've been reading, which the title escapes me at the moment. But I've been reading it since like January. It's been a long time. And I finally finished it, Tolkien and the study of his sources critical essays edited by Jason Fisher. So that was nice. I was pleased.

Lilly 2:45

Yeah, I have not. So let's talk about the last song of Penelope.

Sara 2:51

Yes. Let's talk about it. I think this one, so this one is narrated by Athena. The other two have been narrated by Hera and Aphrodite, and I think that Athena is maybe the most bitter of all of the narrators we've had so far. Bitter and repressed.

Lilly 3:12

Definitely, I mean, all of our goddesses have been through some shit, but they've all reacted and coped with it very differently, and Athena's coping method is not super healthy. Before we dive too deep into this, actually, can we talk briefly about the series so far?

Sara 3:34

Yes.

Lilly 3:34

So this is the third and final book in a trilogy about what Penelope is doing while Odysseus is off on his adventures throughout the Iliad and the Odyssey. So he is gone for 20 years doing. Badass dude, shit.

Sara 3:50

Not I, it's not so much about what she's doing during the Iliad,

Lilly 3:54

no, but he's been gone. I, that's not on the page, but it's about how she has been leading this country for 20 years. the books just happen to take place at the end of it.

Sara 4:04

yes. But I, I did wanna clarify just a little bit, because this series does not take place over 20 years.

Lilly 4:11

Okay. Fair. But Odysseus has been gone for 20 years

Sara 4:14

Yes.

Lilly 4:15

and she is left to kind of hold down the fort with absolutely zero resources or respect. Because this is ancient Greece and they're not totally sure that women are people.

Sara 4:27

Right.

Lilly 4:28

And we've seen through the first two novels how she has sort of set up a shadow government almost, of women not government exactly, but there's. She has her own advisors and people who her gather information and make sure shit gets done because there's basically no one left after the Trojan War. No men, adult men left.

Sara 4:55

She lets the men whom Odysseus left to advise her think that they're doing the hard work. And actually she just works around them.

Lilly 5:05

Yeah. we've seen, she has a, an army of women because women are good with knives and axes for cooking and chopping wood. Also, people are meat, so it's fine. And her like network of spies and, and all of these ways that she has gotten shit done for the last 20 years and how no one. Well, no men, I should say. Obviously all the women around know. But the, all of the noble men around her, like don't know or respect her. They just think she's a, a sad, lonely widow who's being difficult

Sara 5:41

Except for layer a little bit,

Lilly 5:44

and mad. Don one of the advisors in, I think the second book finds out like always kind of had a suspicion, but she reveals to him how much she is actually doing behind the scenes.'cause she needs his help for pulling off some pirate bullshit.

Sara 6:01

Madon though, the thing about him, and he doesn't really show up in this book but the thing about his understanding of what Penelope is doing is that he doesn't want to know. So he kind of turns a blind eye

Lilly 6:16

Mm-hmm.

Sara 6:16

and decides I'm not gonna think too hard on what she's doing, because if I think too hard on it, I'm gonna know what she's doing and I'll feel obligated to like, I don't know, tell someone about it or something, because that's not women's work. Whereas Laertes Odysseus's father, he absolutely knows and he's just like, good for you. I'm gonna continue to be a grumpy old man.

Lilly 6:43

Yeah.

Sara 6:44

He kind of turned into one of my favorite characters in this book.

Lilly 6:48

La Ty's relationship with the women around him is so interesting because he is, is very much like he's not still part of Ithacan society. He's very much removed from it. He has his own little farm homestead. And I don't get the impression that he treated women super well when he was king.

Sara 7:06

No, I don't think so. I mean, he, he very much upholds some of those like cultural norms around women

Lilly 7:15

Yeah.

Sara 7:16

and it says explicitly in the text, like he wasn't good at telling his wife that he loved her and things like that. So no emotional vulnerability there.

Lilly 7:25

but we're seeing him in his old age when he has grown to regret that, which I think is the difference.

Sara 7:32

Yeah.

Lilly 7:32

So we're kind of seeing him at the point where he has learned that might have been a bad idea. So, and not that he is now suddenly emotionally vulnerable, but he sees it as a bad thing at least.

Sara 7:44

Yeah. He still doesn't know how to do it, but he recognizes that it's something that maybe he should try to do, even if he doesn't do it.

Lilly 7:55

When his family members around him are doing it, he recognizes that that's fucking stupid

Sara 8:01

Yes,

Lilly 8:01

and tells them so, which is delightful. But you were talking about Athena, who's also very emotionally repressed.

Sara 8:09

yes.

Lilly 8:10

Her way of dealing with the way that, well, I'm gonna say women are treated in society, but also the goddesses are treated by the gods because it mirrors each other,

Sara 8:19

It's a, it's an extension of soci, like how society treats women.

Lilly 8:24

she says, basically says straight to the audience. As she's narrating these events, I thought if I could become like a man, they would respect me. Like one, but then it just turns out she got the worst of both worlds.

Sara 8:37

Yeah, I felt really bad for her. She didn't seem like she was having a good time of anything.

Lilly 8:43

No. Again, none of the goddesses really do. Aphrodite, I think is making the best of her situation, but her's also pretty upset.

Sara 8:52

he was upset, but her was not repressed in the same way. Like I think her was more in touch with herself than Athena is.

Lilly 9:04

I agree. It was through all of these books though, you have these goddesses talking about, you know, narrating the lives of Penelope and the women around her and loving them in their own ways and feeling such sympathy and trying to help them, but still using them for their own purposes, which I thought was very interesting. We especially got in book two where Aphrodite is like, yeah, I kind of fucked over Helen. Whoops. Um, like, feels bad about it, but not that bad. In the same way Athena talks about how she's using Penelope to help create this story. She's basically saying, I'm crafting the Odyssey. She doesn't say The Odyssey, but we all know as readers, that's the story she's talking about to make herself look good. And so she needs Penelope to succeed so that Odysseus will look good so that Athena can take credit for it. It's a fascinating manipulation.

Sara 10:08

it really is, and it's also not just about making herself look good, although that is part of it, but making sure that the story. Remains even after the Greek gods are gone.

Lilly 10:22

Yeah. I guess when I say look good, it's legacy. She's building a legacy through Odysseus and therefore using Penelope as a pawn. As much as she admires and respects Penelope, there is still this exploit, and some of the other women who we'll talk about in the spoiler section. It's creates this really interesting reading experience the, through these books

Sara 10:46

There's so many layers.

Lilly 10:48

Yes especially since this book is a story about stories, it's so meta like Athena is talking about how to basically pr right, how to craft of the story and the story that she will craft. But also here's what actually happened.

Sara 11:05

Yeah. It is just I really loved this series.

Lilly 11:09

Me too. And you know, obviously the whole series is comparable to the Odyssey because it's what's going on in Ithaca. But I'd say this book. Brings up the most concrete comparisons because of all of those references to storytelling. And Athena is directly referencing what Odysseus went through in a way that the first two books did not like the first two books. Didn't give a fuck about Odysseus.

Sara 11:37

Well, I'd also say that this is the most direct comparison to the Odyssey because the first two books bring in other like Greek stories and kind of intertwine it. So there's a lot of action that happens that's not mentioned in. The Odyssey at all because the Odyssey focuses on Odysseus, whereas Odysseus is back. And so it, it cleaves more closely, I think, to the story as, as has been passed down.

Lilly 12:13

It always fucks me up that cleave means both to separate and to join together.

Sara 12:17

Yes.

Lilly 12:18

I really hate it. Yeah. It's a quick throw backwards or weird segment. Anyway, I, I mean, yeah, I, we are agreeing. That's absolutely the case. And so this, this book starts, or I guess the last book ends, like our very last moment in the second book is Odys washing up on shore of Ithaca and it ends and then, so this book sort of picks up from there. And it. Basically the last couple chapters of the Odyssey Odyssey spoilers slash this book, spoilers, Odysseus, shows back up, murders, everyone, and saves the day and everyone's happy.

Sara 12:56

Yes. Or at least that's the story that we're told.

Lilly 13:00

That's why I said Odyssey spoilers. This book dives into a little bit more of a what and no.

Sara 13:09

It was interesting though, because my recollection of the Odyssey and I have read the, the Odyssey, the actual proper thing, but my strongest memories of it are from a picture book that my father gave me when I was very little. And I almost considered like pulling that out and rereading that just, just for comparison for this. But it spends so little time on What happens after the suitors are all slaughtered? That I was expecting that to be a proportionally small bit of this book, and it's not,

Lilly 13:47

No, I mean a lot of this book is about the consequences of that. A lot of this series is about consequences in some way or another. And that's maybe a stupid thing to say are aren't all stories about consequences, but because Penelope is this, I'm gonna say political juggernaut, although in a different way that is usually meant, it's about her trying to navigate and minimize consequences of the people around her doing dumb things like murdering a bunch of noble people's sons, nobleman sons.

Sara 14:24

not really odys best idea.

Lilly 14:26

No. I think prey says at one point I thought he was supposed to be clever. So many of my highlights are just me going savage.

Sara 14:37

The women have a lot of savage dialogue in, in this book,

Lilly 14:41

They do well. They're surrounded by idiots. Not all. Like we said, not all the men in this book are idiots, which I think is really important because it's like there is another way to be, we get to blame the idiots for being idiots.'cause it's not like they don't have a choice, right?

Sara 14:55

right?

Lilly 14:56

Like Kenman, he gets sent to safety pretty early. He is not in this book a lot.

Sara 15:03

No, and I had really mixed feelings about the relationship that he and Penelope start developing because I knew it was not going anywhere. It could never go anywhere. And indeed it doesn't go anywhere. I'm not necessarily like, I like romance, but I want the romance to have a point usually, like I'm not necessarily a romance reader. So I was like, my God, why are you doing this to me? Why are you making me invested in Kenman? Like, I know it's not gonna go anywhere. But I was still really sad when he got sent away because he was such a decent guy and he was one of the very few decent guys in Ithaca.

Lilly 15:48

Yes, we meet him in the first book. He is one of the suitors trying to win Penelope's hand in marriage, although he has two brain cells to rub together. And so figures out very early on that she is not going to marry anybody. So instead he's just a really cool guy.

Sara 16:05

And they, they just like, have conversations or sit together in silence. Like he's very supportive.

Lilly 16:13

yeah, it, even though there is there is some kind of relationship between them, they both know that it's not gonna go anywhere. Like they can't pursue it. And see, I thought that was a very tragically beautiful and I was very into it.

Sara 16:28

It is, it is tragically beautiful. I'm not disagreeing. I just knew it wasn't go gonna go anywhere. And so I was like, why are you making me read this?

Lilly 16:38

Oh, to rip out your heart and stomp on it.

Sara 16:41

It's just no.

Lilly 16:44

I also have an opinion about the importance of Mann's character in relation to some other characters. But that's definitely a spoiler conversation.

Sara 16:53

Yes. And it's not that I didn't think Kenman was a worthwhile character to include. I just wasn't a fan of this romance.

Lilly 17:05

there's not gonna be a happy ending, why even bother?

Sara 17:08

Not even that, there's not gonna be a happy ending, but because if they were end game and they still had an unhappy ending, I could deal with that. But like, it's never gonna go anywhere.

Lilly 17:20

I mean people date without the intention of getting married,

Sara 17:24

I, I know, I know. It's a thing. Like it's, it's absolutely a thing. But in a, in a book, I don't care.

Lilly 17:33

So you're upset that they're acting like real people.

Sara 17:36

Yes.

Lilly 17:36

Alright? Just as long as we can get that nailed down.

Sara 17:41

It actually, I think, I think what what upsets me is that like you say about people dating with no intention to marry, that's fine. And in another book where the story allows for the possibility that things might change as their feelings change, I would be less mad at it. But because this is based on something and we know how it's going to end it, it just was not for me.

Lilly 18:09

Well, they knew how it was gonna end too.

Sara 18:11

I know. So I was like, why put yourself through that?

Lilly 18:15

Oh, that

Sara 18:16

But

Lilly 18:17

had so few allies. Give her, throw her a bone. Kenman. Can't throw her a bone, but we can.

Sara 18:24

I like, I'm not complaining she did it. I'm just complaining. I had to read about it.

Lilly 18:27

Okay. Fair enough.

Sara 18:29

But also it was a very cute relationship. Like I, I did like them, I just,

Lilly 18:35

They had really great chemistry. I was very into it

Sara 18:38

And I think that's why I was frustrated.'cause I had such good chemistry.

Lilly 18:42

because you're on the record saying that you like longing

Sara 18:47

Yeah. Long longing is fine, but also like, I wanna know that it can go somewhere. I don't know, it's just this is, this is me being like snotty.

Lilly 18:59

Yeah. It wasn't the storyline for you as a specific reader. I get

Sara 19:03

Yeah.

Lilly 19:05

one character who did not look very good in this book, who hasn't really through the whole series, but in this book, he doesn't have the excuse of being a, a young, dumb kid as much is tele, amicus, Penelope, and Odysseus' son.

Sara 19:19

he's such a dick.

Lilly 19:20

He is. Such a shithead, like it's the worst.

Sara 19:25

And I mean, part of that is. There's a whole conversation about toxic masculinity and how that gets perpetuated both by men and by women in their children. And he is suffering for it, but also he was a dick.

Lilly 19:43

He was there are some, again, very savage comments in this book. He, it says something really rude to Penelope or he leaves without acknowledging her. And the line that Athena says is because he is willing to run into battle, he does not consider himself a coward, which was so good.'cause like clearly he's being a coward. But in an emotional way, like a, the, the lack of emotional fortitude in that moment is clearly cowardly. But by refusing to acknowledge the interior self, he's just like, no, it's fine. He's awful. He's a little shit.

Sara 20:21

And I feel like he actually got worse as the series progressed.

Lilly 20:25

I, I definitely think so too because like I said in the beginning, he's younger. The book does, or the series does span like at least five years, right?

Sara 20:35

It spans a couple of years. I don't know if I would've said five, but

Lilly 20:38

I know there's a time skip between the first and second book anyway,

Sara 20:42

I don't actually remember exactly

Lilly 20:45

a couple,

Sara 20:46

a couple.

Lilly 20:48

But as he grows up, he just gets more and more unearned confidence, which makes it more and more, unbearable

Sara 20:55

And

Lilly 20:55

and we

Sara 20:56

not just that, but he also, loses what little respect he had for women and women's work as the series progresses and kind of buys into the whole idea that men are in charge and men know everything, and, and women are sluts and whores.

Lilly 21:16

Yeah.

Sara 21:17

And he, he just gets more and more toxic in his thinking.

Lilly 21:22

And poor Penelope, some of her interior monologues in this book are just about how she failed him, right? Like, I don't think she gets all the blame, but wasn't around to, to raise him differently because she was busy being a fucking queen, which is fair. There, there's some working mother commentary wrapped up in that. So, like I said, a lot of unearned guilt, she piles on her own shoulders.

Sara 21:48

It's not all unearned though.

Lilly 21:50

No. Yeah, I mean, it's true. She wasn't around that much, but she, she takes more of the responsibility than she needs, I think.

Sara 21:59

it's, I agree that she takes more of the responsibility, but it's not just that she was not around. It's also that she didn't know herself how to show love.

Lilly 22:09

Right? Again, the, the cycle, that we're seeing of adults not, modeling affection, if they're not affectionate towards their children, their children don't know how to be affectionate or anything. There is so much unresolved affection in this book. I mean, Penelope towards. Tele right. She wants to be warm and motherly and he's just like, fuck off. But we also have some of that between Telemachus and Kenman.'cause Kenman ended up being like quite a mentor towards Telemachus, on and off the page during this series.

Sara 22:46

He is very much a father figure to telemachus, like he teaches Telemachus how to fight with a sword. He gives advice and just is there for Telemachus in a way that obviously Odysseus can't be because Odysseus is off on his journey. And Penelope doesn't know how to be because she is too busy being a Bombass queen.

Lilly 23:11

Yeah.

Sara 23:12

But Emus doesn't appreciate that relationship and He doesn't know how to reciprocate with his own feelings of like love and affection because like you say, they haven't been modeled to him. No one around him expresses that except Kenman, because Kenman is the like only well-adjusted person in this book.

Lilly 23:37

Yeah. Yeah. I, there's also the aspect of Odysseus is back and tele Amicus can't really adjust to having two adult men that he respects in his life. And so he's like, Nope, dad, only, sorry, Kenman, you're garbage now. Which Kettleman didn't deserve? But he's just such an understanding, dude. Ugh.

Sara 24:00

I mean, Kenman really is the best character in this series.

Lilly 24:03

As far as like, who I would actually wanna hang out with. Yes.

Sara 24:07

Like he's, he's just the most well adjusted

Lilly 24:09

Oh, definitely. I mean, if we're saying best character, there's like a oh who goes through the most interesting arc and is the most well written, which I can't come up with a better example right now, but they're all so good. I feel like they do give him a run for his money in that respect.

Sara 24:23

Kenman. Doesn't necessarily go through growth

Lilly 24:25

Yeah.

Sara 24:26

because he starts off well adjusted and he ends well adjusted.

Lilly 24:29

Yeah. But we also see unresolved affection between Penelope and her, I guess her maids. Yeah. That's, that's the word they use in the book. The women around her who are her confidants and her, like the only people that she can trust. She is not able to show them affection because she is the queen. Right. And so she doesn't feel like she can be warm back to them. They're taking care of her all the time. And she doesn't, I mean, she takes care of them politically or tries to spoiler section.

Sara 25:02

She tries to,

Lilly 25:03

She tries to and then, I mean, talking about unresolved affection, Athena herself

Sara 25:09

yeah,

Lilly 25:10

is constantly talking about how I wish I could comfort this person, but I have not let myself do that, and I'm not starting now.

Sara 25:17

there's, yeah. I just wanna give everyone a hug. They all need hugs.

Lilly 25:23

Hugs would solve everything in this book.

Sara 25:25

some people need a good shake as well.

Lilly 25:28

Maybe a little, a little slap. I would escalate the shake to a slap in some, some regards.

Sara 25:34

Yes.

Lilly 25:35

And actually Penelope Fantasizes at one point, she's like, what would it be if I could just give him one good hit? Which was again, delightful.

Sara 25:44

I, wanted to see her do it.

Lilly 25:46

I know. She couldn't, of

Sara 25:48

She couldn't,

Lilly 25:49

I like that the thought occurred to her, though.

Sara 25:51

yeah,

Lilly 25:52

I, I'm so glad we get so much interiority from Penelope. Again, across the whole series, but especially in this book, that even when she does like roll over and acts meekly to the men around her, it's doesn't bother me because we can see it as a manipulation in her mind.

Sara 26:11

it's very clear that she is doing it for a reason, and it's not just because she is intimidated or feels that that's the only way to safety, you know, she is very specifically doing it so that she gets something out of it.

Lilly 26:28

Yes. And I, I think that's what prevents this series from being infuriating. It still has its moments because there are some really huge jerks that you have to read about, but it, it never like ruins the reading experience because we get, well Penelope's interior thoughts, and then also the goddesses narrating the actions are always framing it as what a jerk that guy is, which goes a long way.

Sara 26:58

They're not making excuses for anyone.

Lilly 27:01

Yes, yes. One thing I noticed is that I think you could probably read this book as a standalone because it ties so closely into the Odyssey and does a really good job of catching you up. Like it references things that happened, of course. But it always gives you context. I don't think you should,'cause the series is amazing, but

Sara 27:22

Interesting.

Lilly 27:23

I just think it's philosophically possible.

Sara 27:26

I think I probably agree with you bad idea because the series as a whole is amazing and you do get a lot of worthwhile like character interactions and story and background from the first two books. But you're right. I think that because The Odyssey is such a thing, you probably could read this book without having read the first two and be okay. If you like Greek mythology

Lilly 27:57

Yeah, if you were like, I just read The Odyssey and I'm interested in, but like, don't, don't do that.

Sara 28:03

Yeah. Don't, don't do

Lilly 28:04

do that.

Sara 28:06

Just, just because you can doesn't mean you should.

Lilly 28:09

I just think it's an interesting thought Thought problem.

Sara 28:12

Yeah.

Lilly 28:13

Brain teaser. No, there's a word. It's, it's gone. Whatever. Interesting concept. Bad idea.

Sara 28:18

Yeah.

Lilly 28:20

Well, looking back on the series as a whole, I don't think our recommendation for who should read these books has changed

Sara 28:26

If you like, if you like Greek mythology.

Lilly 28:29

Yeah. And even if you don't like Greek mythology you don't need background knowledge to read these. If you like political stories'cause so much of these books are political maneuverings in a very personal way it's not, this country might attack well, then we shall go talk to that country. It's how do I manage these people in my immediate vicinity and their emotions and their different motivations

Sara 28:59

It is the kind of small scale political maneuvering that you really enjoy.

Lilly 29:03

is.

Sara 29:04

Yeah, I just like all political maneuvering.

Lilly 29:06

Yeah. And then of course it's. Also very much concerned with gender inequality in ancient Greece. But you know, there's, it's not, it's not without its commentary.

Sara 29:19

Yeah. It's, there's, there's commentary.

Lilly 29:22

Yeah. I mean, just the conversations around the devaluation of work that's considered women's work is not irrelevant.

Sara 29:31

And also the narrative voice for all of the books is so strong and not quite as funny in this book as I found Books one and two with her and Aphrodite, but just excellently

Lilly 29:47

more tragic

Sara 29:48

Yeah,

Lilly 29:49

and I mean, just so beautifully written as a whole. There are some lines that I just highlighted'cause I loved them.

Sara 29:55

yeah, This episode of Fiction Fans is brought to you by Fiction fans.

Lilly 30:03

That's us. We really appreciate our patrons because otherwise we fund this podcast entirely ourselves.

Sara 30:09

Patrons can find weekly bonus content, monthly exclusive episodes, and they have free access to our biannual zine solstice.

Lilly 30:17

You can find all of that and more at patreon.com/fiction fans pod. Thank you for all of your support.

Sara 30:24

The remainder of this episode contains spoilers.

Lilly 30:31

So Penelope doesn't actually slap Odysseus, but that whole like fantasy moment felt really good. And a lot of like, she gets some really satisfying moments in the back half of this book.

Sara 30:43

Yes. She finally gets to stand up for herself a little bit.

Lilly 30:47

Yes, I'm more than a little bit. I think there is a moment where Odysseus is on his knees asking for her help.

Sara 30:54

Yes.

Lilly 30:55

all the earned payoff there, she has spent two and a half books just not struggling, but like putting up with some bullshit. Odysseus shows up is a fuck boy, which I was very worried about as we were reading book two. And I was right on all accounts, but she gets to verbally slap some sense into him and it felt really good.

Sara 31:19

And not just that, but he also rec comes to recognize all of the work that she's been doing. And so she gets that like valuation or that external validation, not that she should need it to be clear but it is nice having someone recognize the work that you've done. Particularly when it's someone who historically has not recognized any of that work.

Lilly 31:45

He hasn't been there

Sara 31:46

He hasn't been there, but, but it's, it's clear that he doesn't really think about his. Wife, like before he left, he didn't really think about his wife in that way. And none of the men around her recognized the work that she's doing except for Laertes.'cause Laertes is great.

Lilly 32:02

And Madon who recognizes it and then shoves his fingers in his ears and goes, la la la la, la. Not listening, which is recognition in its own way.

Sara 32:10

it it is, but it's not the same kind of validation.

Lilly 32:14

Yeah. I, I think that to me, like Odysseus's character journey in this book. I was holding out hope for it. He's built up as like so clever and smart and insightful, and Athena loves him and she likes Penelope. So I think I probably went off on this in our episode on book two, but I was like, how could he not see her value if this is the character he is? Unless it's all like a fake persona, but it, it's not. He is clever and he does figure his shit out. I really loved that arc. I thought like he couldn't just show up and be perfect, you know? That wouldn't feel good.

Sara 32:56

Well, and it also, it makes sense that he has kind of bought into his own story and is very self-absorbed and then needs Penelope to shake the sense into him.

Lilly 33:08

Yeah. I do think the book let him off a little easy with how much of an idiot he is at the beginning. He's so wrapped up in his own shit. The only thing that matters to him is if his wife cheated on him and also have to murder all of these kids. I'm kids, they're like, you know, 18 or whatever. But

Sara 33:30

they're still young.

Lilly 33:32

yeah, it's not a good look.

Sara 33:34

not a good look.

Lilly 33:36

And the excuse is kind of like, oh, I was just still so affected by the trauma of my journey, which is fair, except it's just so stupid. It's so stupid. His actions are unintelligent.

Sara 33:53

And I do think that the book, yeah, maybe it's a little bit light, but the book does also kind of excoriate him for it. And Penelope is like, dude, what were you thinking? This was a dumb ass idea. This has put everyone in danger. We're all gonna die now because of your stupid actions.

Lilly 34:12

Oh yes, she's great. And like I said, I do really like his arc. I just feel like it gets hand waved a little bit. A little bit.'cause he's so single-minded and then he's just like, oh yeah, I was just preoccupied. It's, I'm fine. I'm better now. Okay. I'm glad you're better now. But, there are some really great moments he grovel. It's very satisfying.

Sara 34:40

He does.

Lilly 34:41

It reminds me of, I don't remember where I read this, but I've quoted it more than once now. a concept about the classic romance slash like hallmark trope, women's fantasy is to have men apologize to them and mean it. And you see it a lot, like I said, in the hallmark trope, right? Like, guy gets girl, guy loses girl guy gets girl back. That scene of, you know, holding the boombox over your head, the, the apology, the owning their mistakes. And I don't wanna say like lowering themselves,'cause I don't think an apology should mean that, but I think that's how it's viewed, you know, historically. And Odysseus does that in this

Sara 35:25

Well, it's because like we just want some emotional, like intelligence,

Lilly 35:31

Yeah.

Sara 35:31

you know? And I feel like recognizing when you have been wrong about something base level emotional intelligence.

Lilly 35:41

That's true. Right? It's not just saying, I'm sorry. It's knowing what you're supposed to be. Sorry about identifying where the fuck up was. Again, okay. Another little caveat though. This whole book, he is only doing this around Penelope in private or around other women,

Sara 35:59

I do have a slight disagreement there because he, so he's doing it in Laertes farm, and it's true there aren't a lot of men around, but there are some men around because they have a group of like 20 men who. Are supporting him and they are still there until some of them die.

Lilly 36:18

most of the Oh, that's true. I guess, yeah. I don't mind them having. Emotionally charged conversations alone, but he does still defer to prey as the captain in front of the other men. You're right.

Sara 36:30

Yeah. And like he supports Penelope on the farm walls and stuff. Like he's not only backing her in private,

Lilly 36:42

That's true. Which I'm happy for because the one thing, I mean the, this book ends, I would say optimistically they're not like together and in love or anything, but,

Sara 36:52

but you get the sense that they are going to work through their problems and maybe they're not going to be wildly in love, but they'll at least be content. Yeah.

Lilly 37:03

and sounds like they are both going to put in the effort to be good partners. But I was a little worried that like, okay, great, he went through all of that. Now he's got his kingdom back. And now Penelope is just like back in the. I was gonna say back in the closet, I was like putting her away, but then it sounded like a gay coming out thing. And now I don't have a good metaphor.

Sara 37:23

Back, back in the side seat.

Lilly 37:25

Yeah. Backseat maybe. Anyway, moving on. But you're right. And then he also does tell Telemachus like, listen to your mother other,

Sara 37:36

Yeah, so I, I do think that he is supportive in public spaces as well. It's just that a lot of those, like you said, emotionally charged conversations happen in private,

Lilly 37:47

and that's fair. I'm not complaining about that. I don't think they need to air their dirty laundry in order for it to count. That would be crazy.

Sara 37:54

Yeah.

Lilly 37:56

Oh, we touched on this a little bit though, just the, the cycle of being emotionally repressed. And the generational trauma, right? Like laies not being an affectionate father to Odysseus. Not that a lack of affection is necessarily trauma, although it clearly is in this case. And how that has trickled down to tele amicus. there's that one. Oh, so there's the two main suitors and their two fathers who are the ones that raise a rebellion basically after Odysseus murders. All of the sons trying to woo Penelope, and one of them is trying to remember what his son looked like, who he has like mustard, an army to avenge and he can just remember abusing him.

Sara 38:41

Yeah, it, the, the parents in the, this book, in this series. Generally not going to win any good parenting awards.

Lilly 38:51

No, it's true. It. Lack of affection and it, it's important.

Sara 38:58

Yeah. And also, not just affection, but like lack of actually viewing your child as a person, which is not a problem that Penelope has per se, but it's definitely a problem I think that the fathers of the suitors have, like, they view their kids as extensions of themselves.

Lilly 39:20

Absolutely. Well, and Penelope does, I would say condescend, tele amicus in that she treats him like a little, little kid. I know I've been calling everyone kid, but like, she treats him like a child until it's too late.

Sara 39:36

Yeah.

Lilly 39:36

And that's, that's part of his issue, right? He never gets a chance to see women being competent because she hides it from him. she doesn't, you know, abuse him, but part his worldview is because of her in that way.

Sara 39:52

she's not, I mean, she's not a good parent

Lilly 39:54

No.

Sara 39:56

for for a variety of reasons, some of which are, are out of her control. But it's not necessarily a surprise that Telemachus ends up such a dick because he hasn't had good role models.

Lilly 40:11

Mm-hmm. And all of the bad assery is happening in secret,

Sara 40:15

Yeah.

Lilly 40:16

Which is reasonable when he's five. Right. But

Sara 40:20

A little less reasonable when he's 18 or whatever.

Lilly 40:23

Yeah.

Sara 40:25

And, but also she just doesn't talk to him.

Lilly 40:29

Right. And part of that is'cause he doesn't want her to talk to him because he thinks she's a useless woman. But that, that's why I'm calling it back to. I think it, the problems were probably more, I know now we're just diagnosing parenting issues as two childless women. But at least the way it's discussed in this book, it gives me the impression that she could have been scaling up, like as he grows up, right? It's not like overnight you turn 15 and suddenly you're a man or whatever. But because she kept treating him like he was very young, she missed the middle stage when she could have been like slowly introducing these new concepts and taking a more engaged role in his parenting being raised.

Sara 41:15

Yeah, I mean the, the way that you treat your child, and like you say, we're both childless, but we have parents good, good parents, so we've seen it modeled in, in good ways. But like, you can't just treat your child as a child until they reach a certain point and then you snap and they're an adult. You have to change how you interact with them over the, the course of they're growing up. And Penelope clearly doesn't do that.

Lilly 41:45

Yeah, she expects him to be an adult and see the truth and everything. And maybe not expects, hoped maybe is a better word.'cause she's very realistic about the situation that has been created here and heartbroken over it. Like, I really feel for her like that. It sucks to be so dismissed,

Sara 42:07

absolutely.

Lilly 42:09

especially by your child which made Odysseus rolling in and going Listen to your mother. very good. It's

Sara 42:15

It is just a good book.

Lilly 42:17

a really good book. Okay. One more little quibble. Athena's speeches got a little repetitive towards the end.

Sara 42:26

I see your point. I didn't find them repetitive or boring per se, but I can see where you're coming from.

Lilly 42:33

It might have just been that I was so engaged with the action that when she stops to take a couple of pages to talk about her experience as a goddess and how she tried to repress her femininity and tried to act like a man, but still got dismissed because she is a woman. I was like, you've already told us this.

Sara 42:52

I felt that these breaks worked well with the narrative. And with the, the action that was going on.

Lilly 42:57

I just wish it was something like they, she has a couple of moments where she goes through that same thing and it's not changing or introducing something new. It's just like. Yeah, I know you already told me this.

Sara 43:11

yeah, that's, that's fair.

Lilly 43:13

And again, it might just be'cause I was like, but what is gonna happen?

Sara 43:18

Yeah. There, there was some very high stakes action happening at, at the same time.

Lilly 43:23

Oh, speaking of high stakes action people die who we've grown to love over the last couple of books

Sara 43:30

Yeah.

Lilly 43:31

and it, it was really well set up I thought, because none of them were a total shock.'cause the book spends a little bit of time waxing poetic about each one, and then you're just going, oh no. Oh no. Why are you telling me this? Why am I being so sad about Eos and, Penelope not. Like able to be affectionate towards each other. What do you mean they're never gonna get the chance? Now?

Sara 43:56

Yeah, I was sad about aos and pni.

Lilly 44:01

At least preen, I'm not gonna say died, doing what she loved, but kinda,

Sara 44:06

I mean, she

Lilly 44:09

she went out like a badass.

Sara 44:10

doesn't choose her death, but she kind of chooses her death.

Lilly 44:15

She's a warrior and she died as a warrior. I feel like there, there is some pros around the, what is it? The, the person, the living dead, the warrior who knows that they will die in battle is just a question of when. But that's another example. Athena loves prey because she's a great warrior and she's just like, oops, gonna have to sacrifice you to save everyone else. Sorry hun. And I mean. She's not glib about it. She prey's not from Greece and Athena calls in her like home gods to, to help also, which I thought was very

Sara 44:51

Ugh, that killed me.

Lilly 44:52

it was a very good scene. Her death was like, great, but it was still sad. And then her girlfriend has to mourn her for, yeah.

Sara 45:01

Yeah. And the priestess Elli, I was sad about her too,

Lilly 45:07

Was she a priestess

Sara 45:08

or something. Old

Lilly 45:09

something? Okay. I was sad about her too. Yeah. I mean, but Aos, I mean, she just dies is Aos the character's name that feels like a God's name. Am I making that up? Oh no. It's a lip balm, Greek mythology. Yeah, the goddess of Dawn, I mean, not that the maid can't also be named aos, but I just was looking at my notes and second guessing myself anyway. Uh, Yeah.'cause when Odysseus is on his rampage, the absolute bitch of a maid, uh,

Sara 45:45

or however her name is pronounced

Lilly 45:47

Yeah. However who's just the like worst and has been the worst over the last couple of books, tells him that all of the women in the palace had betrayed him. So he's like, guess, I got a murder'em all. And

Sara 45:59

Yep.

Lilly 46:00

that's what, that's what broke Penelope.

Sara 46:02

Yeah,

Lilly 46:03

Which is good.'cause that's what started enacting change. I mean, not that, they, they get to three, they hang three of the. Women in the palace before Penelope like figures out what's happening and does something about it,

Sara 46:15

yeah,

Lilly 46:16

but Oof.

Sara 46:19

yeah. That I didn't like that scene. I just,'cause I was sad. Like it was, it was a good scene. But I, I didn't like it because I was sad.

Lilly 46:28

And as pointless as the action was, their deaths didn't feel pointless. Like it didn't feel like, well, obviously the, the book does such a good job of honoring characters, even as the people around them don't honor

Sara 46:44

It didn't feel like a gratuitous death for the sake of having deaths in the book.

Lilly 46:51

No, yeah. It, they didn't feel flippant,

Sara 46:53

Yeah.

Lilly 46:53

In the narrative, even though obviously the men killing them didn't give a shit.

Sara 46:59

Right.

Lilly 46:59

But that's, I mean, that's this book, right? the other characters. Don't see the women's value, but the book does.

Sara 47:06

yeah,

Lilly 47:07

And you see that a little bit too in the fight scenes. Athena comforting the dying on both sides of the conflict. I thought that was a very nice touch.

Sara 47:17

yeah. Agreed.

Lilly 47:19

It does feel like there's a bit of a thesis statement in this book near the end when Gaos the captain of the Rebellion. I mean, it's not really a, you know what I mean? when it's first introduced. Athena is like, they're not really rebels, but we're just gonna call them that for the sake of clarity,

Sara 47:38

Yeah. The, the forces that the suitor's fathers have organized to go and kill Odysseus.'cause they are understandably upset about how he has killed all of their sons.

Lilly 47:50

Yes. Odysseus surrenders with the terms that they will let all of the women go. And there's this moment where Gaos, I guess there's not really a moment of consideration, but Gaos could refuse. His bosses definitely want him to refuse. Right. The the fathers,

Sara 48:09

Well, and we also see from Athena that Aries is like whispering in his ear, trying to incite violence.

Lilly 48:18

yeah. Aries is there. He just wants bloodshed. He doesn't care. And that's the moment where Gaos chooses to be. I think the book calls it a different type of man because he's heard the stories about how there can be a different type of man. The, the myths around Odysseus that have been spread during all of his adventures, and I thought that was. Very poignant and really nicely kind of sums up the book'cause we see the different type of men. The different types of men.

Sara 48:48

it works on so many levels, right? It, it works on the level of there is a different way to be a person. You can be a better person. You don't have to fall into this trap of toxic masculinity and the cycle of violence, but also the importance of stories like this is how you learn about being a better person.

Lilly 49:12

Yeah. He only considered it because he'd heard the stories and it's maybe not a coincidence that the stories are about Odysseus and it's Odysseus who he's choosing to, to not at spare.'cause he is going to get murdered by the fathers if this goes through. But he chooses mercy because he's heard about people choosing to avoid violence. Avoid battles, right? Instead of just being the biggest fist smashing the other side, like ways to win that are different and the importance of role models and narratives in that sense. And

Sara 49:49

Yeah, it, it's a really powerful scene.

Lilly 49:53

then of course, Electra swoops in and stops them from murdering Odysseus, which is like, yeah. So that, I mean, it just felt really good. This book feels really good, even when the, like, awful bullshit is happening in Penelope. Penelope is dealing with some really untenable people.

Sara 50:11

Yeah, it, it's such an excellent series. I'm so glad we read it.

Lilly 50:16

Me too. Yeah. Absolutely.

Sara 50:22

Thank you so much for listening to this episode of Fiction Fans.

Lilly 50:25

Come disagree with us. We're on Blue Sky and Instagram at Fiction Fans Pod. You can also email us at Fiction fans pod@gmail.com or leave a comment on YouTube.

Sara 50:36

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Lilly 50:43

We also have a Patreon where you can support us and find exclusive episodes and a lot of other nonsense.

Sara 50:49

Thanks again for listening, and may your villains always be defeated.

Lilly 50:53

Bye.