Fiction Fans

Lovecraft Country by Matt Ruff

• Lilly Ellison • Episode 212

Share episode

For their final Spooky Month episode, your hosts read Lovecraft Country by Matt Ruff. They discuss cosmic horror vs social horror, magic cults, and ill advised heists.


Find us on Discord / Support us on Patreon

Thanks to the following musicians for the use of their songs:

- Josh Woodward for the use of “Electric Sunrise”
- Kevin MacLeod for the use of "Darkest Child"

Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 4.0 License


Lilly:

Hello and welcome to Fiction Fans, a podcast where we read books and other words too. I'm Lily.

Sara:

And I'm Sarah, and today we will be discussing Lovecraft Country by Matt Ruff, our last spooky month episode.

Lilly:

Yes. We're wrapping up our spooky month for 2025. No, I'm not gonna get distracted. We're gonna do our good things first, but something great that happened recently.

Sara:

Something great that happened is so dumpling got an eye scratch, not great.

Lilly:

Not great. Yeah.

Sara:

the process of giving her IM meds really not great because she is a traumatized little baby. But I took her in for a recheck yesterday and she got the all clear so I don't have to give her anymore eye drops,

Lilly:

Yay.

Sara:

and that's my good thing.

Lilly:

My good thing is also pet related. It was going to be that I had a very chill day and read some very trashy fan fiction. It involved a tango just to like, give you some idea of where, of how trashy that was. But my cats were like, absolutely not. You should be paying attention to us. And Bard, my black and white cat does this thing where if if you're on your phone and he wants attention, he will like try to bite the phone. But like the corner of it, it's very goofy. And sometimes he will try to lick your phone and has indeed like scrolled and pressed buttons by doing that before. It's very cute. So even though we delayed recording so I could finish reading it, I did not finish because the cats were being menas.

Sara:

You didn't even finish.

Lilly:

but they were being so cute that I'm still counting it as good. What are you drinking tonight?

Sara:

I picked up Snorri's ashes today, so I am drinking whiskey for Snorri.

Lilly:

I for a second. I thought that was your answer and was like, that's a crazy thing to drink, Sarah.

Sara:

No, I am not drinking the ashes of my dead dog.

Lilly:

Okay. Whiskey though. Appropriate.

Sara:

Yes,

Lilly:

I also feel like whiskey comes up in the book a little bit.

Sara:

it does. I wouldn't have had whiskey for this book otherwise though, because it's only the terrible racist white men who drink it, and I don't necessarily want to be associated with that. But for snoring, I will drink whiskey.

Lilly:

A mine is not very fun. I'm finishing a box of coconut water.

Sara:

I tried drinking coconut water once and I did not like it.

Lilly:

It's an acquired taste. It's something that I started drinking for hangovers. I'm gonna be

Sara:

was, that was why I tried to drink it and it I did not drink enough of it to work.

Lilly:

Well, I Stockholm syndromes myself into liking it.

Sara:

It's probably a good thing to, like,

Lilly:

I'm suspicious if it's actually as healthy as they want us to think. But it says nutrients in electrolytes right on the box.

Sara:

so's gotta be right.

Lilly:

Yeah. Well, I kind of shared what I've been reading lately. How about you?

Sara:

I have an answer. Finally, a fun answer,

Lilly:

You've been, you've had an answer. It's just been the same.

Sara:

Yeah. I have been reading Solstice submissions, not enough to actually be on track for where we need to be particularly because I'm going to be going on vacation for the next week. But I've made a start.

Lilly:

I also started but that was less recent, so I went with trashy fan fiction instead.

Sara:

I mean, trashy fan fiction is a perfectly good answer.

Lilly:

It is, but today we are discussing Lovecraft Country a book that sort of got onto our radar because it was turned into, I think, an HBO adaptation a couple of years ago.

Sara:

I mean, I think you should say it got onto your radar

Lilly:

Okay.

Sara:

of that.

Lilly:

It got onto my radar because of that, and I watched some of it. My husband says we watched the whole first season. That might be true.

Sara:

Isn't there only one season?

Lilly:

Possible. Very possible.

Sara:

I didn't

Lilly:

I don't think we finished the first season, but I don't remember.'cause it was a while ago.

Sara:

I don't think it got a second season. I think it got canceled before like the second season came out.

Lilly:

Well, what I remember certainly was not the whole book. So either the first season was not the whole book, or I didn't watch the whole first season. Hey, we're not talking about the show, so it's okay that I remember nothing.

Sara:

I have not seen the show. also apologies to listeners if you can hear, uh, scampering in the background. The tiny terrors are tiny terror ring. So that's my new pug background, not snoring. It's just madness.

Lilly:

So I, I had some. Awareness of at least the introduction coming into this book. But you went in pretty blind, right?

Sara:

yeah, I knew nothing about it. I knew the title, and the title was vaguely familiar, like even before before we put it on the calendar. But didn't know anything about the book didn't know anything about the premise. It was lighter on the cosmic core than I was imagining from the title. The real horror really is all of the racism.

Lilly:

Yeah, it's, so the book is called Lovecraft Country, purely because at one point the, well it's an ensemble cast, but I'd say Atticus is sort of the main character in that the stories start and end with him.

Sara:

He's certainly the main character of the first episode anyway.

Lilly:

He's our introduction.

Sara:

Yeah. And he is the most important character in the sense that a lot of the plotting by the bad guys revolves around him.

Lilly:

It's a, a lot of it's about him, even if he's not like the main character of the story. Yeah. Well, he misreads a county, I believe, on a map. He thinks it's aum, but it's actually Arto. And so he calls it Lovecraft country because he's also a, a science fiction fantasy fan. Now, is that enough to call a whole book to name a whole book after Lovecraft?

Sara:

I mean, it's there, there are some cosmic cores in this, so I don't, I don't mind it. I do think it's a little misleading. Just in terms of reader expectation, if you go in blind like I did, but not so much that I felt like I had gotten a bait and switch.

Lilly:

Yeah. I honestly feel the better claim to the title is because of the, like racism and xenophobia that the, the bad guys display is very lovecraft. And

Sara:

That is also very Lovecraft in Lovecraft was a terrible, terrible person.

Lilly:

so there's, there's that and there's also like the sort of insular communities as well. because of that, I'm like, okay, I see the Lovecraft connection. But for the most part, I mean, there are supernatural things that happen. I would say magic. Some of the characters would argue.

Sara:

They call it quote unquote natural philosophy, but it's magic.

Lilly:

Overall though, this book takes place in the 1950s in Chicago. I read this book a week ago, Chicago, right? Yes.

Sara:

Yes.

Lilly:

And it revolves around Atticus and his sort of extended family and how they get embroiled in the bullshit of a incidentally white supremacist magic cult. Like they're definitely white supremacists, but that's not the point.

Sara:

Yes, they're definitely white supremacists. And I would

Lilly:

is more about the magic than, than the racism.

Sara:

yeah, the, the cult is definitely about the magic. I think their, their point in the story partially revolves around the racism.

Lilly:

Oh yeah. I mean the story is definitely about the, this various stories.'cause it's sort of,

Sara:

it's eight short stories essentially that are interconnected, but. I would argue probably mostly could be read independently if you really wanted to.

Lilly:

there is an overarching plot throughout it and I don't think the last story holds up if you haven't read the rest of them, but all of the other ones, I agree. I think totally stand alone.

Sara:

yes, I would. I would agree with you about the last one. And I do think it's interesting because in the version of the book that I have Ruff answers, some questions that he came up with himself according to his website. And he talks a little bit about how it was originally written as like he, he was trying to write a television show. He was pitching a television show. And I do think that you can see that in the format of the book because each story is. I said mostly self-contained. It features a different character as the main character of the story for each one until we get to the end, which is very much an ensemble thing,

Lilly:

Yeah. And while there's a different main character in each story, they're all related. I mean, literally like they're an extended family. So even though Atticus is the main character of the first story, he's very involved in what happens later.

Sara:

right? It's a small cast. Even if we follow a different person in this like extended family in each story, they, they are related. They do all show up in each story to varying degrees.

Lilly:

and like you said, it is very much about racism. The TV show, well obviously is a predominantly black cast. Jordan Peele was involved, I think was what sparked my interest at the beginning. And then, well, the reason why I wanted to read this book is because I found out that the book that the show was based on Lovecraft country was not written by a black writer. And that always is a little bit like, hmm,

Sara:

Yeah. But I do think that this book shows that if you do the research, like you can write outside of your experiences.

Lilly:

it's. Well, not that I am in authority at all,

Sara:

No,

Lilly:

but it really does feel like the perfect example of yes, white writers can write experiences that they don't have. You just have to be really thoughtful. Like there's no there are no shortcuts and it does feel like Ruff put in the time.

Sara:

Yeah, I would agree.

Lilly:

Now don't take our word for it. Like I said, we are really not the authorities on that, but we've done a little bit of research and it sounds like that opinion is held by people actually in the black community.

Sara:

Yeah, I, I did want to confirm that I wasn't just like making stuff up. And so I did find reviews written by black reviewers. For example, Alex Brown who is a reviewer for formerly tour.com. Now it's Reactor Magazine, And they have a review and, and talk about some of those same things, like Ruff is white, but obviously put a lot of thought into writing the story and it does show that white writers can do it. They're just usually too lazy too.

Lilly:

Mm-hmm. our opinions have varying degrees of weight, and this is one where they weigh very little, but it doesn't feel bad when you're reading it. And I, I think I. I'm a sensitive enough reader that I can go, Hmm, this feels like a red flag. But I probably don't catch all of them, you know? So when I read this book and I was like, I don't notice anything that raises alarm bells, that's a great sign. But that's not like the end all be all.

Sara:

exactly.

Lilly:

but yeah, not only is this book about people of color, it's in a, like a real world historical setting, which is not something we read very often. And I also think adds a layer of difficulty.'cause if you're inventing a fantasy world, you can get away with a little more, right.

Sara:

Right. But Ruff does include a lot of actual historical aspects. Like, for example, Atticus's Uncle George in the novel prints or publishes a, a travel guide specifically for black people. And that was an actual thing. It has, has a different name in the real world. I think it was called the Green Book in Real Life. But like that was a thing for example.

Lilly:

Also Rose and George, the, the brothers were in the Tulsa riots as children. And so that was also something I looked up and there's a couple of names and dates of not people they knew, I guess, necessarily, that I, I looked up and we're real and then I felt bad. I was like, should I have known this? Maybe it's been a while since I've taken a history class. I.

Sara:

Ruff also uses actual snippets at the beginning of each chapter. I forget what there's a proper name for that, but

Lilly:

Mm, I didn't look those up. I was wondering. Okay, so those are

Sara:

Well, okay. I should, they, they seemed like, they seemed like actual things.

Lilly:

Anytime he made a reference to like a historical, or, I guess it's not so historical for the characters they're, you know, in it, but I, I thought that was very cool and just sort of lends credence to the whole thing. But we're not gonna spend an hour going over every single detail and going, thi this was historical fact. Turns out the, the ghosts, not historical fact.

Sara:

You sure about that? That sounded pretty historical to me.

Lilly:

oh, also maybe the ghosts are, I don't know. But I do think it's worth addressing just up top before we dive into the book as a story that like, yeah, Matt Ruff is white, but it does seem like he did a pretty dang good job.

Sara:

Yeah.

Lilly:

And that was also part of Lovecraft. So Atticus and his Uncle George are both big science fiction and fantasy fans, and George's son Horace, that, not, not the whole family, but a lot of our main characters are, I'm gonna say nerds. And that does bring in some discussion about, especially in this time period, how, you know, the big SFF writers were white and a lot of those fan spaces were very white. And especially, you know, Lovecraft and his works are brought up and I just wanted to quote George. He says very, very early on, he is discussing with Atticus Lovecraft and some of his issues. And George says, stories are like people loving them, doesn't make them perfect. You try to cherish their virtues and overlook their flaws. The flaws are still there, though, and I think we should declare George an honorary fiction fan

Sara:

I agree.

Lilly:

like that. That feels very much like our approach to just interacting with stories.

Sara:

Yeah. I mean, you can still love a book, but you do have to acknowledge its flaws,

Lilly:

Mm-hmm. And acknowledging a book's flaws does not mean you love it less. I,

Sara:

right.

Lilly:

I feel like that is something that you see in fan culture these days a lot. Like if you criticize something that means you hate it,

Sara:

Yeah. And I, I would argue that the, the true fan is someone who can criticize something and still love it.

Lilly:

mm-hmm. So we see or we follow different characters throughout this book with, with each different story, but the way that Ruff draws character development through the stories, even through the ones that aren't focusing necessarily on one of the characters was so good. Probably my favorite part of reading this,

Sara:

Yeah. The character development in this book, a plus.

Lilly:

we learn so much about everyone. Almost it feels like, especially when we're not focused on them because we get these little details of them interacting with their family or the outside world. It just adds onto this picture that we've started to build of them in our heads, and I just, it was really, really well done. The character work in this was incredible.

Sara:

Yeah. And all of the characters are so like well-rounded as characters. It doesn't feel like any of them get left behind in that development either.

Lilly:

I, I have to say, I think it stands out the most with morose Atticus's father, just because I remember from watching the show, they have, even in the book, they do have a somewhat contentious relationship, but in the show, Montrose did not have a lot of redeeming qualities. There's just a lot of conflict between them and in the book. Partially because there's more time we see more of Rose, but you get so much more of him and the other side of him, and you know, even though he doesn't always have a great relationship with Atticus, we do see those moments and that made such a huge difference just to my experience of him as a character and also the family as a whole.

Sara:

I think it would've been really easy for him to remain a kind of one dimensional, bad father, angry father in the hands of a, of a lesser author,

Lilly:

Absolutely.

Sara:

but he does get fleshed out and that does make the relationship dynamic. A lot more compelling

Lilly:

oh, and easy. Much easier to read

Sara:

And easier to read. Yeah,

Lilly:

because you're like, okay, I see where you're coming from, and. It's not just, you're not just getting the outer world, right? You get more of his interiority, which is hard to do in a TV show, to be fair. And maybe if we had gotten more of the show, that would've changed over time. But I think he's also set up to be, I'm not gonna say a villain that's dramatic, but a character of conflict because he's the anti fantasy guy.

Sara:

Well, I don't know if it's,

Lilly:

thing we find out about him is that Uncle George encouraged Atticus's reading of science fiction and fantasy androse hated it. So, of course, as the reader we're gonna go, well, fuck that guy.

Sara:

I dunno if it's so much that he's anti fantasy so much. As his anti fantasy authors.

Lilly:

Yeah, he, he doesn't accept the racism the way that George does or not accepts it. But

Sara:

he can't overlook it

Lilly:

yeah, he's unwilling to overlook it.

Sara:

He can't overlook it the way that George can and we see this we character trait in other aspects of his life as well. For example, he's talking with two children. They're on a road trip and they stop and there are two children who are buying coke from a vending machine or something. And the vending machine is part of a property or a store that doesn't allow black people in it or has very strict rules around that. Something, I don't remember the details'cause it

Lilly:

I think the vending machine had a sign that said whites only, but the kids said, no, no, it's fine. Like the store owner will let us buy from it.

Sara:

Right. He says, no, that's bullshit. If someone doesn't want your money, you shouldn't give them your money.

Lilly:

Yeah,

Sara:

he's got a point. To be fair, he's a little more,

Lilly:

point. He makes his point. Very abrasively. But.

Sara:

yes. He's, he's a little more militant and violent about his point than I think is good. But he still has a point.

Lilly:

Absolutely. And we, I think for me, what really softened me up to him, I don't remember why he runs into a child. I think it's one of the ghost stories that doesn't really matter. I, a young kid, not, not like super young, but definitely under 10, like runs up and says something to him. And at first she's like kind of dismissive and then he's like, this kid doesn't have shoes or a jacket. Like, I need to find his mother. And that was just a very, like a dad's a dad and a dad is gonna dad.

Sara:

Dad is gonna dad,

Lilly:

He was like, it is too cold for this kid to be running around without a jacket.

Sara:

that was one of the ghost stories. Yes.

Lilly:

yeah. So yeah, you see that warmth from him that like. Clearly as a character does not get externally displayed often, so we should probably talk about the K, k, KA little.

Sara:

Racism, as we've said, is a big part of this novel. Probably the true horror because I would argue that it impacts their lives in negative ways, much more than any of the magic stuff does.

Lilly:

Most of the supernatural elements end up being beneficial in some way. Most not all.

Sara:

Beneficial or not actively harmful?

Lilly:

Yeah. Okay. And still most, not all.

Sara:

Yeah

Lilly:

but there is a fraternity, I don't remember the name.

Sara:

it's the order of the dawn something,

Lilly:

Sure.

Sara:

ancient Dawn, order of the Ancient Dawn.

Lilly:

And it's not the KK, K, although our characters do draw references between it because how can you not? It is a, it it a magic cult, right? That's the cult. We see it in the first story. It sort of kicks off the, the various plots and things that we run into in the rest of the stories in this novel. But one thing that I found myself returning to over and over again is how much, just the very basis of magic and the supernatural in this book link back to racism. because we see in, in the stories, all of the magic is controlled. The ancient of. The ancient of the don, the order of the ancient don stupid name. I mean, it's supposed to be. But

Sara:

Yes

Lilly:

are all white men. All of the magic that we see is controlled by white men.

Sara:

we do. We do actually see a couple of white women in the order.

Lilly:

We do. They get a cameo. We don't see them do any magic.

Sara:

No.

Lilly:

I think there, there's a moment where I'm gonna be very vague, so it's not a spoiler.'cause it, it's worth talking about in the nons spoiler section. A a handful of our main characters are in a confrontation with some of the magic users. And they have a, a couple of weapons, like they have guns, they have, they outnumber them, the white man is able to stop them with magic. They just freeze. They're not able to like. Pull the trigger on their guns, they're not able to fight back, which in the moment of reading it almost feels cheap.'cause you're like, oh, how convenient. The bad guys have this overpowered thing. The good guys can't do anything against it. They're just completely powerless. And then, you know, you read on for another paragraph and you're like, oh, hey. That's a metaphor, isn't it?

Sara:

Yeah, the, the magic is, there's a lot, there's a lot of metaphors for whiteness.

Lilly:

yeah, privilege.

Sara:

Yeah. Privilege and how it impacts life.

Lilly:

It's not a coincidence that, okay, there are some white women in the order, but they are all old and rich.

Sara:

Yeah.

Lilly:

And so you just see this, the power of privilege translated into, you know, actual magical power.

Sara:

And we also do see the, a little bit, this is absolutely not the focus, nor should it be, but we do see a little bit how quote unquote witches were looked down on. And so the, the women really in the order do kind of have to work to overcome those stereotypes too. So they are, even though they are in this order, they do have more power than our main characters. They aren't top tier privilege members.

Lilly:

No, and it it, I mean, I said in the moment of reading it, I went, what a cheap literary device. And then I was like, oh, it's not just convenient for the fight, is it? It is in fact doing something else. Still very frustrating though, but I think in a poignant way.

Sara:

That's kind of the point though, right? Like how people abuse their privilege in ways that are frustrating.

Lilly:

Or even when you do have avenues to stand up for yourself and push back, you can't use them. And maybe because they're controlling you with magic or maybe because you know the consequences wouldn't be worth it or whatever, like,

Sara:

Yeah.

Lilly:

and so having that tool that option and being unable to use it is almost worse than having no option at all.

Sara:

Yeah,

Lilly:

So who should read this book? I'd say any. If you are a history nerd, you'd probably like it. I say history, it's not that long ago.

Sara:

I do think that this is one of our spooky month reads where you don't have to be a horror fan to read it because I actually really enjoyed this book. The, the cosmic horror elements, the, what I find like nightmare inducing is not that bad. It's very much, character centric and all of the horror is related to like real world stuff, which is still sad and terrifying, but not quite as hard to sleep at night when you're reading as like goopy, I don't know, tentacles.

Lilly:

It's not that one dumb copy pasta face that in the bride of day you laugh at, but then you accidentally scroll past it on your phone at 2:00 AM and then you can never go to sleep again.

Sara:

Exactly.

Lilly:

What sticks in your brain in that way is not always logical, right?

Sara:

Yeah.

Lilly:

I agree. It's a societal horror.

Sara:

Yes, exactly. So I don't think you have to be a horror fan to read this. I think if you enjoy science fiction and fantasy in general you'll probably like this.

Lilly:

not exactly references, but like I said, the characters in this book are fans, so it does sort of feel like you're in on a joke with them

Sara:

like especially if you are a, a reader of classic SFF, which I'm not really, to be fair, I mean there's, there's not a lot of classic SF that I've read, but if you are, I think you'll get a lot out of the references to it.

Lilly:

I agree. I. As far as the supernatural stuff, I'm using that kind of as a broad catchall because like there's some fantasy, there's some sci-fi, it's all just sort of unexplained, ooky, spooky. There are some ghost stories. If you like ghost stories, I definitely think you'd like this book.

Sara:

It has spooky elements for sure. So if you are a spooky fan, you will like this book. You just don't have to be a spooky fan in order to like this book.

Lilly:

I agree. Well, shall we actually talk about some of the specifics in the spoiler section?

Sara:

Yes, let's go.

Lilly:

This episode of Fiction fans is brought to you by fiction fans.

Sara:

That's us. We really appreciate our patrons because otherwise we fund this podcast entirely ourselves.

Lilly:

Patrons can find weekly bonus content, monthly exclusive episodes, and have free access to our biannual zine Tia.

Sara:

You can find all of that and more at patreon.com/fiction fans pod. Thank you for all of your support.

Lilly:

The remainder of this episode contains spoilers. So the, I'd say the first story in this collection is the most love crafty. Well, the space one is pretty

Sara:

I haven't read enough Lovecraft to argue either way.

Lilly:

fair enough. I'm, I am operating on vibes entirely. I've only read what we read for Spooky month last year.

Sara:

and for spooky month last year, I think I got through like a story and a half before I, before I said I can't do this anymore.

Lilly:

I like this book a lot more than Lovecraft.

Sara:

Oh, this book was so much better than Lovecraft actually. Kind of unrelated to this book. Semi related to this book Ruff mentions at the end of the novel, he gives a list of some books that he suggests reading, and one of those was Victor Laval, the Ballot of Black Tom, which is apparently based on a Lovecraft story. And I actually own that book, and I would be interested in reading that on the strength of his recommendation.

Lilly:

Yeah, totally. I'm in.

Sara:

Next Spooky Month

Lilly:

Put it on the list. We can't plan things out over a year in advance, but

Sara:

says you.

Lilly:

yeah, we'll see. The first story kind of kicks off everything. Atticus is lured to Art County, not Acomb County, the sort of base of operations for this branch of this weird magic cult. he has to drive through many racist cities to get there. We've, oh, they've, they've taken his father or his father went there and it's suspicious.

Sara:

He is looking for his father.

Lilly:

Yes. I love how Atticus Uncle George and Letitia, there are, are three characters. For this little journey never lulled into a false sense of security. That's

Sara:

they're going into shit far, are aware the entire time.

Lilly:

and they go along with stuff too. The, they get to this crazy mansion and they're like, oh, they were expecting you, the servants that is go and change into these fancy clothes that happen to fit you all perfectly and come down for dinner. They're, you're our honored guests and our main characters are like, okay, we'll put on these like really fancy clothes we could never afford. And we'll go to dinner, but we do not think for a second that we are honored guests.

Sara:

I like how Leticia is planning on stealing the dresses because girl, same.

Lilly:

I mean, they're clearly for her. So that was really nice, especially you have this like. Horror story, like scary story thing in the back of your head. Like the, the tropes where characters do that, make stupid decisions. Never see that.

Sara:

it's refreshing to see characters make these decisions with their eyes open and you understand why they're doing it, and they know that bad shit is going to happen. But they have to make these decisions because like they're looking for atticus's father. They, you know, they don't have a choice. They have to play along until they can find him and they're just doing the best that they can rather than stumbling around. Yeah,

Lilly:

yeah.

Sara:

they're not naive about it.

Lilly:

Not at all. that first story culminates with Bre White, the elder, the leader of this branch of the. White supremacist, magic cult getting absolutely what was coming to him. It was very satisfying. Not just that he gets burnt into a pile of ash or I, something like that, vaporized something crazy,

Sara:

Something like that.

Lilly:

but it's how his, well, his son turns on him because he's also power hungry. That's not that rewarding. But all of his employees are like, yeah, fuck that guy. I loved that.

Sara:

Yeah, his employees do not care. On the other hand, I do kind of wish they'd shown a little more self preservation because Caleb, who is Brai White's son is, he is marginally more reasonable than his father, but he's not a good guy.

Lilly:

No, but I mean for the white servants, that's fine.

Sara:

True. He's good to, I mean, he's not, he's not as bad to Atticus and his family as Bray White Senior is.

Lilly:

No, like I said, him being the one to orchestrate the downfall did not feel like a victory. But everyone turning on the dad so easily felt like a victory.'cause it's like, yeah, you reap what you sow, you're awful. There will be no genuine loyalty.

Sara:

I

Lilly:

Yeah, they flipped to someone. Not that much better. We're ignoring that part right

Sara:

yeah. Yeah. I was gonna say, I guess I wish that they had that, we had seen that with Caleb as well, because them supporting him doesn't feel good in the context of the end of the book,

Lilly:

eh? So what all do we see over the course of this novel? There's that Secret Society is the First Story, and then The Secret Society. Caleb, I think honestly, my biggest problem with him is how manipulative he is of Atticus and Atticus's family through the rest of the novel.

Sara:

but that's the whole point.

Lilly:

Yeah, I know it brings up a very interesting conversation Because Caleb is like, my father was racist. I'm not racist. I don't think you're subhuman animals. I just think that I'm better than you and you should do everything I say. So it's like that.

Sara:

It is, it's the insidious racism versus the really overt racism

Lilly:

yeah.

Sara:

because he is still a racist, terrible person. He just doesn't recognize it.

Lilly:

Well, and he's still benefiting from the systems right of privilege. He's just not saying the words out loud,

Sara:

He feels a sense of moral superiority because he's like, look at me. I am giving opportunities to this black family, when really he is using them for his own end.

Lilly:

kidnapping and blackmailing people to force them to do what he wants to do is still not, you know, good.

Sara:

Just a little bad.

Lilly:

And the book does not for a second, make you think that he's great. So it's not like we're being revolutionary or anything.

Sara:

no, the the book makes it very clear that he is a villain.

Lilly:

And like him manipulating the family got really old really fast. I get why he had leverage, but there were a couple of points where I was just like. You guys just say no to him and like he's, he steals a family heirloom, like a, a book about one of their ancestors. Right. And I get that that's one of a kind, and I get why they need it back. But that's the second, no, the third story, like if they had said no at that point, he would've had no leverage over them anymore. But because they give in on that, it's sort of like, well, you're just kind of showing that you can be yanked around and he's gonna keep doing it. Now

Sara:

Yes, I agree. But on the other hand, if someone stole a very important book from me, I would react in the same way. So

Lilly:

you would do a museum heist.

Sara:

yes. So I, I do think it comes down to how you view these family heirlooms. And I say this with love, but you are less motivated by collectible objects than many people.

Lilly:

Yeah, because I don't want policemen to wave guns in my faces because guess what? Caleb betrays them.

Sara:

Unsurprisingly.

Lilly:

Yeah. Which they knew he was gonna do. Ugh, terrible.

Sara:

I mean, they, they do also try to betray him as well, unsuccessfully. So it's not a surprise to anyone

Lilly:

yes. I value my health and safety over books. It's true.

Sara:

I don't, I don't

Lilly:

not as charming as you think it is.

Sara:

I don't think it's charming. I'm just, I'm just a realist. Someone takes my books. Yeah. I'll, I'll do a museum heist. It's a bad idea. I know it.

Lilly:

What's the, what's the most you've ever done to get a book back?

Sara:

well, I don't lend my books out, so I haven't had to get my books back,

Lilly:

Uhhuh.

Sara:

but I'm still,

Lilly:

this is purely theoretical, Well, I loved every single character in this book. Especially, so Leticia starts, or she's our first like, main female character, and I love how much she stands up for herself.

Sara:

My one qualm with her is that she hints that she has this really checkered past. And we don't get to see it. And I'm so mad.

Lilly:

I love that. I hope she's making up half of it just to like, mess with people.

Sara:

I

Lilly:

Not all of it. I think she's earned she's clearly done enough to earn her pride. That's not the word.

Sara:

I just wanna know a little bit more about her backstory because it seems interesting.

Lilly:

Hmm.

Sara:

And there is a second book, there is a sequel to, to this novel destroyer of Worlds. It came out in 2023 apparently. I don't know if it goes into backstory at all. I don't know anything about it. I just know the title.

Lilly:

But you hope that it's all about leticia's past?

Sara:

but I hope that it's all about her past. Actually, that's not true. I hope that it's partially about her past and the rest about what they do.

Lilly:

My quibble with her is that when she's first introduced, she's very, I don't even wanna say religious, but like, I mean, she, she's very religious. it's very like, God spoke to me and told me that this thing is gonna happen, which I, this is just a personal issue. Have no patience for, but that kind of fades away as we see more of her.

Sara:

Yeah, we, we see less and less of that as the story progresses.

Lilly:

and then her sister Ruby originally. So Leticia gets this really fancy house that ends up being haunted. Might be my favorite story.

Sara:

You mean her getting the house?

Lilly:

the haunted house story. Yeah. But that's not, neither here nor there. And she's like, Ruby, come live in this with me. And Ruby's like, you are just being selfish getting this house. And Leticia's like, no, live in this fancy, amazing house with me. And Ruby refuses and stays in her shitty apartment and then later is so butt hurt about Leticia living in this fancy house. And it's like, dude, she invited you.

Sara:

To be fair, Ruby did try to live in the house, but it was very haunted. This was before Letitia had like tamed the ghost because she does tame the ghost. Who was a former order member and also a terrible racist. But uh, Letitia is like, if you don't settle down and kill me, I will haunt you in return and you're not gonna like that. And then they start playing chess together and it's kind of cute, but. Ruby does try to live with her that happens, and she is, I would say, understandably scared off by the ghost.

Lilly:

Yeah, but it gets better

Sara:

Right? But she doesn't know that.

Lilly:

that, which is crazy. She's never like, Hey, sis, call me when you figure this out.

Sara:

Would you try, okay, if you tried to live in a haunted house, would you trust then that like say I was inviting you to a haunted house. I'm gonna call us sisters. Say I was inviting you to a haunted house and you tried and it was very haunted. You had a very bad experience. And then I call you back a week later and say, Hey, I talked with a ghost. It's all okay now. Would you believe me?

Lilly:

why not? Especially because other people are living there by then. Right? When it was just Leticia. I get it. But,

Sara:

other people are desperate.

Lilly:

but that means that there's more people to ask and corroborate.

Sara:

It's, that's true.

Lilly:

So anyway, that bothered me a little bit, but then, oh my gosh, Ruby's story was so much fun. She has an affair with Caleb before she knows who he is and. He offers her basically a potion to transform herself into a white lady, She gets to experience life that way and seeing the ways that she plays with that and like uses the privilege to her advantage and just sort of exploring this new version of herself I thought was very fun. And then of course, it sort of comes back at the end, at, at the, in the final story are all of our main characters finally like sit down and say, okay, here's what my experience with Caleb has been. Here's what my experience with Caleb has been. Puts it all on the table. Then they ultimately figure out a way to bring him down, which was amazing. But I thought it was so funny that Ruby never tells them the truth about Hillary. Her alter ego.

Sara:

She never does, and she has a bunch of potion left over. So she just continues to use it after the end of the book. And I'm really, that's one of the things that I want, that I hope that the second book explores is what she does,

Lilly:

Yeah.

Sara:

Especially because the potion is finite. She doesn't know how to make more. She has a lot of it. But it only lasts for 24 hours. So I'm just, I'm really curious as to how she deals with that.

Lilly:

Mm-hmm. I think my favorite part though, I, I said earlier, I think that Letitia moving into the house and dealing with the haunted house situation is my favorite story. I, I think it's not necessarily because of the story itself, although it's very good, but because of how that thread gets woven through the rest of them.

Sara:

I really liked how it turns out that Caleb was kind of behind her getting the house, but also how the former owners of the house is important to the rest of the story.

Lilly:

Yeah. our main characters find out that Caleb is the reason why she gets the house because he wants information out of it that he knew the ghost wouldn't let him get. so they realize, hey, that means there's information in this house that we can use against Caleb. And the, the ghost is Hiram, I think.

Sara:

Yeah. Hi, room Winthrop.

Lilly:

Hiram Winthrop ends up helping them basically like come up with a plan. We don't see this there's not like seances or anything. Leticia just shows up later and is like, so I talked to Hiram and it's very, very great and he helps her like keep vandals out of the house. That just sort of ongoing relationship. The like benevolently haunted house I love so much.

Sara:

It was fun, especially because in life he was a pretty terrible person. He was also a member of the order of the ancient Dawn. His son ran off with one of the black woman who was the hired staff, and he was big mad about that. So in life he was a terrible racist, but in death he has kind of calmed down a little bit or it's just that Leticia put the fear of Leticia in him, which honestly good for her.

Lilly:

good for her. In my mind, I think they become genuine friends.

Sara:

I think So they seem to have fun like playing chess together and doing so. I do think that he relaxes a little bit as he gets to know her. Which is nice. We don't see much of that. I'm extrapolating, but

Lilly:

Well, and this is kind of just so he's not like a spectral human. He's just a force in the house, right? He can move chess pieces around. There's cold breezes and so it's not

Sara:

the elevator up and down.

Lilly:

yes. So it's not like he is like a see-through man who is sitting down and having a conversation with Letitia. But because of that, it makes me think, well, it does. We don't need to debate the finer points of the afterlife in this story, but I kind of got the impression that it's, he's less of a consciousness and more of a force, although still with some memories and, and intelligence

Sara:

I feel like that would be a, it would be difficult for that kind of force to. Give them the exact answer they needed to capture Caleb in the last story,

Lilly:

maybe. But how else?

Sara:

really matter,

Lilly:

like he can talk. So he must have just directed them to a book anyway,

Sara:

maybe.

Lilly:

but it doesn't matter. We do kind of meet his son, kind of. It's sad. It's the other ghost story.

Sara:

Yeah.

Lilly:

Henry, his son ran off with Pearl. They had a kid, they move into a neighborhood and Pearl is like, there are a bunch of racists here. We should not stay. And Henry's like, it'll be fine. It was not fine.

Sara:

Spoiler alert, she was right. That is one of the saddest stories in this, book, I think.

Lilly:

So many of these stories I know that we're using the, it's spooky, it's a spooky book, but I definitely don't think that overall it's like the horror genre necessarily. I, every, almost every story ends like happy. Like I said, these supernatural forces end up being beneficial. Hippo gets to travel the stars. That's crazy. Cool.

Sara:

I loved her story.

Lilly:

And so they all have this ending of some kind of like hopeful optimism except for Henry and Pearl?

Sara:

Yeah, I was gonna say, I don't know if that story has a happy ending.

Lilly:

Well, for our main characters it does because they figure out how to get one over on Caleb, or at least it's one step on their path.

Sara:

they, they get the book that they're looking for, but it's so clouded by the sad ending of Henry and Pearl that I, yeah.

Lilly:

yeah, I liked it though because Henry was an important character. I think for the picture that this novel paints overall. He's a, a white man, falls in love with a black woman, runs away, wants to have a life with her, but he still doesn't get it.

Sara:

Yeah,

Lilly:

like, he's still out of touch with black experiences despite living with her for however many years, I guess.'cause they survive a couple of years. They have a kid who's like five or something. And so

Sara:

Yeah. He thinks that his white privilege is enough to keep her safe. And it's not, I mean, and in the, in the book, it's his privilege as an order of the, as a member of the, the order of the ancient dawn, because he has this charm from his mother that will protect him from things. And he thinks that it will protect him from everything, but it doesn't protect him from racism. And obviously this is, you know, metaphor for white privilege protecting protecting things, but it doesn't work.'cause Yeah,

Lilly:

because, yeah.

Sara:

because yeah.

Lilly:

and it just shows too, even though, you know, he's been in a relationship with a woman who's been experiencing racism, the reality of it didn't sink in for him, although, I guess we can forgive him by saying he thought he had magic powers.

Sara:

Yeah. But it also shows that he doesn't actually talk to her because she knows explicitly like what's happening and she has very reasonable concerns and he just kind of poo-poos them. And if he had just listened to anyone around him instead of assuming that he knew best, then they would have survived. Like he, it's not just his wife who tells him this is not a safe space for us. There's also a white realtor who tells him that and he ignores that advice as well.

Lilly:

Well, a white realtor and a white civil rights lawyer, so we know that he has good intentions, right? Not someone just trying to scare them off, genuinely trying to like help them.

Sara:

Yeah. This is, this is someone who actually has the credentials. Who, who is a good person and who wants the best for both Henry and his wife Pearl.

Lilly:

It's, it's this thing that we definitely still see today where. People don't really comprehend, not just racism, just isms in general.

Sara:

I mean, I, I do think people have trouble comprehending just the, the lived experiences of people who don't have the same privileges,

Lilly:

Well, it's this thing where they don't see it and it's like, of course you don't see it. You're not the one experiencing it. But he thinks he sees it because he sees what his wife goes through. But clearly he hasn't seen all of it. And so it's this idea that, well, what I have witnessed is reality and, and sort of not connecting the dots that things happen. you know, behind closed doors or in, I'd say mixed company, but I guess not mixed company in this case where they're not there to, to see it. And you can tell them what it's like, but they don't necessarily like comprehend.

Sara:

Right. It's hard to understand unless you experience it, and unfortunately for Henry and his family, it's a fatal lesson

Lilly:

Yeah.

Sara:

and it is entirely Henry's fault.

Lilly:

Oh, entirely Henry's fault. That, yeah, that's the saddest one for sure.

Sara:

Yeah. definitely

Lilly:

It was fascinating how, just like my experience as a reader we're, we're reading these stories. I'm getting so annoyed at Caleb because he's such a dick yanking these people around and manipulating them. I'm so annoyed at Caleb. And then we eventually meet Lancaster, who is the local chapter or chapter leader for the order. And suddenly, I hate Lancaster so much more, and Caleb kind of feels like a less bad guy.

Sara:

I mean the, I, the terrible thing is that Caleb is not as bad when you compare him to the alternatives.

Lilly:

He is genuinely the lesser evil. Like he's not wrong there.

Sara:

right. Like, and that's horrifying because he's still really bad. But, but the other options are so much worse because they are so much more. Blatant and explicit about their distaste for people of color and people who are not like them.

Lilly:

That did not make me celebrate any less when our main characters get Caleb in the end though.

Sara:

No. I was very pleased that they get Caleb, but I was also pleased that they get everyone else. I,

Lilly:

Their punishment for Caleb is that he can't use magic within like Chicago city limits or Illinois or something. It's a geographic boundary.

Sara:

I thought it was, he couldn't come into Chicago and he can't use magic in general.

Lilly:

Maybe that was it. That was it. Because like his, if he had stayed in Chicago, he would've slowly died over time. But they take him outside. They're not trying to kill him. But they force him to live like someone without the privilege of magic and. That was just so poetic. I really loved that as an ending.'cause if they had just killed him, it wouldn't have felt as good.

Sara:

I mean, I would've celebrated if they had just killed him, but I do think that this is the more difficult ending for him.

Lilly:

It's, I think it's a worst punishment. How's

Sara:

He has, he, he suffers if he can't use magic and he doesn't suffer, if he's dead, he's just dead.

Lilly:

Mm-hmm. And maybe even living his best life as a house ghost or his best on life. I did laugh a little bit when they were talking about the money they got.'cause he pays them exorbitant amounts of money for the stuff that they do. That's the thing, like he does pay them a shit ton of money,

Sara:

he.

Lilly:

so much better than manipulating them into doing stuff and then saying, fuck you.

Sara:

Yeah. Right. Like he's, he's not the absolute worst. He's just bad.

Lilly:

Yeah. But there was a line where they were like, we have$300,000 we can pay for like five people's college education.

Sara:

I did, so I, I did look that up and adjusting for inflation. It is a approximately$4 million in, in today's money, according to well-known scholar Google.

Lilly:

probably

Sara:

So they're not wrong.

Lilly:

three people's college educations.

Sara:

Yeah, they're not wrong. But also I wish that$300,000 these days paid for three people's college educations.

Lilly:

Yeah. So they're like set up for life at the end, which is really

Sara:

Yeah,

Lilly:

I, they deserved it. They earned it.

Sara:

they did. They did. I mean, they, they went through a lot of terrible things.

Lilly:

oh yeah.

Sara:

And since there's a second book, it's probably not over for them.

Lilly:

I mean, it could not even, it might even be a different family in the second book.

Sara:

Possible. I actually know nothing about the

Lilly:

Yeah. We, we know so little about the second book. I don't know if we can say that, but yeah, overall I really enjoyed it. It did feel like good spooky vibes. Ghosts are spooky even if they're not scary.

Sara:

I would agree. It definitely felt like, appropriate spooky month reading.

Lilly:

Are you looking up the second book?

Sara:

I am, or I'm trying to, here we go. It is still. The same family,

Lilly:

Okay.

Sara:

and it does indeed sound like the supply of Ruby's magic potion runs out.

Lilly:

Questions. Maybe you can go on the list for next year.

Sara:

I know, I actually, like, I would actually really be interested in reading the second book. I

Lilly:

also quite a, a gap. When does the first one come out?

Sara:

2016.

Lilly:

That sounds right.

Sara:

Yeah, 2016.

Lilly:

So that's, that's quite a gap in between novels

Sara:

And Ruff has said that he doesn't usually like to do sequels, but that this one, he, he felt like he had another story to tell, which I think is a good way to do it. And it, it does make me, even though he's not an author, I'm familiar with that much. I've read this book obviously, but I've not read any of his other books. But that does make me think that his sequels are more thoughtful than sometimes he's not just writing them because he wants another paycheck.

Lilly:

or you write a quartet'cause that's what you do.

Sara:

Right. but I enjoyed this book enough that I would read another book in the same vein by him. Which I can't say for all of the books that we read for this podcast.

Lilly:

You don't wanna read more? Clive Barker.

Sara:

I mean, I, I will read more Clive Bark if you make me, but I'm not gonna go out and suggest it

Lilly:

I, I do think we should put one of his fantasy books on the on the list

Sara:

I mean, I, I am down,

Lilly:

anyway, but that we're not talking about Barker right now.

Sara:

we're not talking about Clive Barker, but I, I did enjoy this book enough that I would read the sequel, which again, is not something that I can say about all of the books that we have read for this podcast in general. Not, not just for Spooky month, you know.

Lilly:

no, I agree. All of the characters I'm really invested in, I think it ended very satisfying.

Sara:

I agree. I don't necessarily need a sequel, but I am interested in a sequel.

Lilly:

Absolutely. Yeah, I agree. Thank you so much for listening to this episode of Fiction Fans.

Sara:

Come disagree with us! We're on Blue Sky and Instagram, at fictionfanspod. You can also email us at fictionfanspod at gmail. com. Or leave a comment on YouTube.

Lilly:

If you enjoyed the episode, please rate and review on Spotify and Apple Podcasts, and follow us wherever your podcasts live.

Sara:

We also have a Patreon where you can support us and find exclusive episodes and a lot of other nonsense.

Lilly:

Thanks again for listening, and may your villains always be defeated. Bye!