Warhammer 40k: The Infinite and the Divine by Robert Rath

Your hosts delve into the grimdark (ish) world of Warhammer 40k with The Infinite and the Divine, a tie-in novel by Robert Rath. They discuss their familiarity with the world (next to none) and how approachable the book was for newbies. They also talk about the ratio of academic rivalry to fight scenes, the complex relationship between main characters, and what this book revealed about their reading preferences.

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Thanks to the following musicians for the use of their songs:

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- Josh Woodward for the use of “Electric Sunrise”

Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 4.0 License

Transcript

Lilly 0:04

Hello and welcome to Fiction Fans, a podcast where we read books and other words too. I'm Lily,

Sara 0:10

I'm Sarah, and today we are going to be talking about War Hammer 40 K, the Infinite and the Divine by Robert Wrath

Lilly 0:18

but first we have our quick five minute introduction starting with Sarah. What's something great that happened recently?

Sara 0:25

Cookie turned one.

Lilly 0:27

Oh, happy Birthday Cookie.

Sara 0:29

so she is not any more mature of a terror, but she is a one-year-old terror.

Lilly 0:35

And what do pugs get for their birthdays in your house?

Sara 0:39

Lots of love and,

Lilly 0:42

wonderful.

Sara 0:43

some extra treats maybe.

Lilly 0:45

My good thing I think, is that I made the biggest crockpot of chili. On Monday, and I have been eating it ever since.

Sara 0:56

delightful.

Lilly 0:58

It's wonderful. I really love the cook once and then never again approach.

Sara 1:02

It's great.

Lilly 1:03

Mm-hmm. What are you drinking tonight?

Sara 1:07

I have some very un thematic leftover holiday punch.

Lilly 1:14

I also am drinking non thematic sleepy time tea. I think the right beverage for this book, though, honestly. Red wine,

Sara 1:23

I

Lilly 1:23

the, the bitchy rivalry vibes. It's red wine right.

Sara 1:28

It's absolutely red wine. And also wine is one of the only beverages mentioned in the novel because Tren, one of our main characters collects wine even if he does not drink it.

Lilly 1:42

Yes. There that, that was actually a very funny scene. He was like, I can't drink it. It's a investment or something like that. also, he's a nron who does not consume food or beverage, but we'll talk about that a little bit more in a second. Actually, first, I actually, no, not first. We'll get there. Have you read anything good lately? Extracurricular.

Sara 2:05

I've been going back to Tolkien's letters which is fun. I I kind of went on hiatus for a while, but I'm back to reading them. I'm about 50% of the way through the revised version, I should say. And I, I continue to enjoy it, but it's not an exciting answer because it's been my answer for however many podcasts now.

Lilly 2:25

It's a more exciting answer than mine because, no, I have not. Alright, moving on. So I think we have to start with War Hammer 40 K. That is an intellectual property. It's a tabletop game, not a tabletop. RPG. You're very specifically not role-playing when you play War Hammer or at least that's my very biased opinion, but it's uh, it's army management and we're reading a book. So whenever we read a, an IP book, which we have a couple of times before, I think it's worth establishing like, what is our previous knowledge of this world?

Sara 3:07

Well, for me the answer is very easy. I know that Warhammer is a game that one can play because your husband plays it. And that is about the extent of my knowledge,

Lilly 3:20

My husband specifically, not the proverbial you,

Sara 3:24

Right, right.

Lilly 3:25

is how I heard that at first and I was like, yeah, that is.

Sara 3:29

your husband specifically. I guess some kind of knowledge must have been imparted to me by osmosis because they talk about. In, in the novel they mentioned the phrase Horace heresy very, very briefly, and I recognize that as a Warhammer thing. I know that Warhammer is a thing. I couldn't have told you before reading this book what the different factions were or anything about the, the setting whatsoever. But,

Lilly 4:00

I have some information that I have learned against my will. I played one game, although that was actually War machine, which is a different company. But it's also army management. We don't need to get into all of it. I've never actually, well, I've never actually genuinely played a full game of War Hammer. It's not for me

Sara 4:22

you have been in the room while your husband and his friends play.

Lilly 4:26

extensively and I hear a lot of conversations about it. So I, what I was going to bring up earlier that I stopped myself,'cause this was moments away. There are ways that my husband and his friends pronounce names. They would be the first to insist that they are not, the authority on pronunciations, which is very sweet of them because yes, they are they play so much. They watch videos of other people playing. They watch videos produced by the company that makes war hammer about war hammer. Like, I think if anyone knows how to pronounce these names, it's them.

Sara 5:05

They're, they're deep into it.

Lilly 5:07

So rein is how I

Sara 5:09

Ah. Ah,

Lilly 5:11

Not that that matters at all, but

Sara 5:14

I mean, as I think I've mentioned on the podcast, I do default to an awe sound, not an a sound, when I am, in front of a word that I don't know.

Lilly 5:24

yeah, it, it doesn't matter that much. But so I, I am going to correct you because I'm stealing their authority.

Sara 5:30

does that mean that it's oran instead of oracon?

Lilly 5:33

No. Because Tradein has a, a vowel in it after the a totally different

Sara 5:39

No, it doesn't. It's T-R-A-Z-Y-N.

Lilly 5:42

A ZYN. Yeah. A ZY.

Sara 5:45

Okay. I guess I was thinking when you said after you meant immediately after,

Lilly 5:49

Mm. Mm-hmm.

Sara 5:50

if it was a YI would understand that, that A, there'd be, there'd be no arguments.

Lilly 5:55

sure. I don't, that doesn't matter that much.

Sara 5:57

No, it, it doesn't.

Lilly 5:58

But Warhammer is, well, other than we read a book, so it's relevant. This was a book. however, it is also kind of interestingly overlapping with some of the conversations we've had because the, term Grim Dark was coined by Warhammer. And that is a, a huge movement in, in genre right now. And a lot of people are talking about like, what is grim dark? What counts as grim dark? This book is not grim dark.

Sara 6:28

So the phrase comes, my understanding is that the phrase comes from a bit at the beginning of the novel, or I'm assuming all novels.

Lilly 6:37

it's like the, the world establishing poem. It's not from this novel.

Sara 6:41

yeah. There is no peace amongst the stars for in the grim darkness of the far future. There is only war. And I would agree with you that this book. Did not fit my personal definition of grim dark.

Lilly 6:58

It also doesn't fit any that I've heard. I, it's okay. A lot of bad stuff happens. Sure. But the tone is actually quite silly in parts and, and lighthearted. The book does not take itself too seriously now, resin and or definitely take themselves very seriously, but the book is kind of making fun of them for that the whole time.

Sara 7:25

Yeah. The, there are, like you say, there are bad things that happen but it's not grim and depressing the entire time. There is humor in the prose in the novel. I would say that sometimes it was too silly. Not necessarily the writing itself, but just like. Some of the inherent war hammer concepts were a little much for me sometimes. Like the,

Lilly 7:56

over the top, right.

Sara 7:58

it was so over the top. Like, like some of the weapons, like they use a surkin pistol and, and Trayson uses an empathic obliteration. And sometimes I found myself going, this is like a 13-year-old saying, you know what, elves are cool, but what's even cooler? Elves riding dinosaurs. No wait. Elves riding dinosaurs, shooting lasers. And sure he can pistols. And it was, it was just as I was getting into the book, it was too much. It, it did like even out eventually for me. But it was a, it was a hard start.

Lilly 8:36

I wonder if part of that is because, so war Hammer the game. Different players play as different factions. And so theoretically the people developing, I should know their name. I've been there. Games workshop, theoretically games workshop is trying to keep all of the factions balanced so that there's not like, oh, well if you just play this faction, then you win. Now there's quite a bit of discourse around if they succeed, but when it comes to everything feeling like a hat on a hat and just being like more and more just trying to be cool and badass, I think it's because all of the factions need to be main character energy, right.

Sara 9:26

It's, it's possible. And. Maybe if I was more immersed in, in the world, like I wouldn't have had as much issue with it. Like I said, I didn't actually have that much issue with it by the end of, of the book, it, it just dropping in as someone with essentially no context for any of this. It was a lot.

Lilly 9:50

It was a lot. For me, it was kind of a relief because Warhammer can be a little exhausting, but opening up the first page, or it's not the first page.'cause first there's a lizard race that I latched onto and every time a new character was introduced, I was like, clearly these are the lizard people. No,

Sara 10:12

We don't, we don't

Lilly 10:13

was just the intro. Yeah. But having this like reson off the bat, being an absolute insufferable ass and the elves shooting sugar can on their dinosaur mounts, I was like, oh, this is the kind of slapstick that I can get behind. This is gonna be fine.

Sara 10:33

I think, I think slapstick is a very apt phrase for it.'cause I mean, you can't, you can't say elves writing dinosaurs, shooting Rican from their guns. Like you can't say that with a straight face.

Lilly 10:45

No you can't, which is delightful. But when you are reading that and comparing it to gr like what you consider the grim dark genre today, it is so different like night and day.

Sara 11:00

Yeah. Very, very different.

Lilly 11:03

There is also quite a bit of gender discourse going around about War Hammer and more around space, Marines and video games. But I felt like this book did actually a very good job of balancing characters from like a male and female perspective, at least

Sara 11:21

yeah, I agree. I mean, obviously Trayson and orcon are, I guess both male. I mean, they're also robots essentially. Kind

Lilly 11:32

consider themselves men.

Sara 11:33

true. But we do, we do see women neons we see other female characters. Like it didn't feel that

Lilly 11:42

It was not a boys

Sara 11:44

Yeah.

Lilly 11:45

Which we Great. Good job. Gold Star. We don't have to get into it because this book did it. Fine.

Sara 11:51

Yeah, like it was, it was about on par with what I would expect from any other genre book.

Lilly 11:56

There's just a lot of space marine conversations that I do not know enough about to talk about except that people are wrong. And of course there can be lady space brains. Anyway, moving on. So this is a Nron book, which is not, I would say the most pop culture relevant faction out of War Hammer. That's obviously Space Marines. You don't have to agree with me, Sarah. It's nearly fact.

Sara 12:25

I mean, I'm not disagreeing because I know nothing about

Lilly 12:28

Yeah. So we're following two Nron main characters and we get a lot more of that civilization than we do of the other ones. And so I felt like that information was imparted much more understandably. At least for me who went in knowing, approaching Lee Zero

Sara 12:51

yeah, I would agree with that. For me, who went in knowing actually zero. I felt that the, there, there were one or two things about the ne Run society. I would've liked explained a little more in the beginning, but by the end of it, I felt that I had a pretty good handle on what had happened with them, more or less.

Lilly 13:16

I.

Sara 13:16

and I liked the way that bits of their lore or hints, hints about what had happened to them were, woven into the story. Like it didn't make me feel like I was missing anything. Whereas in contrast when they talked about the other, I guess, playable factions, it was a little more jarring because you didn't get any of that additional context. And so I was like, well, if I knew what you were talking about, this would be a great reference, but I know it's a reference and that's it. And that's kind of the worst place to be.

Lilly 13:54

Yeah, you're clearly referencing something and I have no idea. I called those the cameo factions in my notes.

Sara 14:01

Yeah.

Lilly 14:02

They, they kind of zoomed in for a cameo, had at least one fight scene each and then we're never heard of again, or were heard from again. But I learned nothing about them except for what their guns are called, which, I mean, that's just war hammer at its heart. That, that kind of perfectly encapsulates why I prefer Dungeons and Dragons over war. Hammer.

Sara 14:28

Yeah, I can, I can see that. I will say that and I think this is just a, a me thing or my personality in particular. I did want to go and look up all of the things on Wikipedia. it was very hard for me not to because I knew that there are Wikipedia articles. I knew that that. was referencing things that had Wikipedia articles. I could just go and read those articles and then I would have all of the context that I needed for this, you know, one line reference

Lilly 15:00

Why didn't you? May I ask?

Sara 15:02

because I wanted to go into this novel as someone who did not know Warhammer.

Lilly 15:09

That's fair. I definitely asked my husband Daniel questions often. Although for the most part it was, they've mentioned an infection, which faction is that now? And he would, he would tell me, and then I would go, oh yeah, that's the one that friend plays. And he would say yes. And then I would say, great. But I had a, a reference, a very enthusiastic reference right at my fingertips. So I mean, it would've been cruel if I hadn't asked questions. I'm gonna be honest.

Sara 15:43

Oh, you absolutely had to ask

Lilly 15:45

Yeah. And also actually for listeners who are going, oh, why do I care what you think of this book? You know, nothing. Daniel is going to be joining us for a bonus Coda conversation. will probably be out within a week of this episode. But we wanted to have our, the first episode just from the perspective of can you approach this book without background information? And so that's what this episode is going to be. and then our, our follow up one is going to be what is the book like from the perspective of someone who knows things about War Hammer because this novel is considered the best war Hammer novelization, and that that's not I don't think that's, well, it might be biased, but I think that's like pretty universally the, the case

Sara 16:35

I will take your word for that, or rather your husband's word for that. Because I, as I have said, no, nothing did no research for this book,

Lilly 16:44

I, when I say it's considered, I don't just mean like our buddy says so, and he's read all 60 of the Horace heresy novels, so he probably knows no, like, like it's. In war hammer circles, it is considered that.

Sara 16:58

No, I, I guess, I guess what I mean is I, I trust your husband to have done the research to know that, that people say that, not that him and his friends think this is the best.

Lilly 17:08

Yeah. They both is true. So neons backs interesting. Well, I'm gonna keep saying faction just because that's the war hammer word for the different, like armies you can play as and also calling them a a species or a race feels weird.

Sara 17:27

I mean, they, they were originally erased though.

Lilly 17:30

That's true. And I mean, they, they still are, they're just robot versions

Sara 17:35

yeah. They're, they're living robots without souls now.

Lilly 17:39

But before then, they were kind of this like vaguely ancient Egyptian culture. There's a lot of scarabs and pyramids and cartes and things like that. I mean more from a, well, not entirely aesthetic. they went through the effort of becoming immortal robots because of their various death mythologies. So that, you know, that focus on the afterlife, but I would say it's mostly aesthetic.

Sara 18:11

Yeah, I would agree.

Lilly 18:13

However, uh, Sorein would you reon and or are both the main characters, but reon a little bit more so just because we meet him first?

Sara 18:25

I think Ren gets a little more page time

Lilly 18:28

Yeah.

Sara 18:29

than Orkin, and we follow him a little more. He is slightly more sympathetic than, or not by much. they're both pretty terrible. But I, I do think that for the most part, if I had to choose. One character who is the main character? It would be him.

Lilly 18:48

He is an archeologist. He does that by like freezing living creatures in place and making dioramas out of them because he has no respect for other creatures.

Sara 19:01

I would argue he's actually more of an archivist than an archeologist. Maybe that's splitting hairs.

Lilly 19:08

I just think there's something interesting about the, the Nron character. Being an archeologist with, you know, ancient Egypt having been so exploited by British archeologists. And Warhammer is a, is a British IP games workshop, is based in Nottingham, but the author of this book is American. And maybe I'm reading too much into it, but it does feel like he gets some jabs in there.

Sara 19:38

Okay. But, but I mean, the author of this book didn't make up these characters.

Lilly 19:43

True.

Sara 19:44

Reson and Reson and Oran were preexisting characters. Yes.

Lilly 19:49

I believe so. Good question. I. Yes,

Sara 19:54

They

Lilly 19:54

yes, he existed before.

Sara 19:57

And, and so presumably Reson was an, they call him an archeovist. Presumably that was not a character trait that RAF developed for this novel.

Lilly 20:09

That's true. And, and maybe Wraths influence. I'm overstating, but I do think there's something very interesting of in the, the British story of the archeologist. And then, I mean, trayson does not look good in this book. Or, and so maybe the lore as a whole, I don't know how this compares to other depictions of trayson. Like the, what he is doing is not like, yeah. Good for you. And you're preserving history and this is great. Like it's pretty clear that this story thinks he's an ass for what he's doing.

Sara 20:46

Yes, that's true.

Lilly 20:47

I actually, that was one of the things that I thought was very funny at the beginning was how clear the book made it like it wanted, well, wrath, he's a person, not a inanimate object book. He wanted there to be no doubt that these were douche bags that you were reading about, and it was, I thought it was fun to read about them. I enjoy unlikeable characters more than you, I think typically.

Sara 21:13

You do like an unlikeable characters more than I do. I actually quite liked reading about Trayson and, or mostly because their academic rivalry, as you have termed it in our notes kept it very engaging. Unfortunately there were also a lot of battles. This, this book went from battle scene to battle scene to battle scene. And that didn't work for me, but the, the characters did.

Lilly 21:43

It, I would say was at least 80% fight scenes,

Sara 21:47

was so many fight scenes.

Lilly 21:49

which is just not my jam now. That is purely me being the type of reader that I am. If this had been the exact same plot, everything had happened and it had just been 80% sex scenes, that would've been fine. Fight scenes just aren't what bring me to a book.

Sara 22:06

If it had had more of the political maneuverings between the two of'em, that would've been my jam.

Lilly 22:12

Oh, that also would've been more compelling. Their banter was great. I loved them interacting.

Sara 22:18

I really enjoyed seeing their interactions and seeing the way that they tried to maneuver around each other like that was excellent.

Lilly 22:27

See, and that's why I, I wasn't counting that'cause that would've been a great book. I was just saying I'm a hypocrite for 80% of it being filler fight scenes, thumbs down, 80% of it being filler sex scenes, thumbs up. And so it, it truly is just my tastes being the issue there. And not that I need the book to be mentally engaging, but yeah, if, if they had had more of their interactions and then the way they manipulated people around them just Oh, so much fun.

Sara 22:56

Yeah, the, they were completely unlikable, but very compelling to read about.

Lilly 23:02

Yeah. Now not rivals to lovers, unfortunately,

Sara 23:07

I did send you at least one message saying, I just want them to kiss already.

Lilly 23:13

That was, oh my God. One of the first things. So, Daniel read this book before me, but was very careful to not say anything to not like color my impression of it going into it. Except the one thing he did say was, I bet there is an a o three for these two.

Sara 23:30

I am sure he's right.

Lilly 23:33

He is, I checked.

Sara 23:34

Oh, oh, good.

Lilly 23:36

So it, it is, uh, yeah, they're chemistry

Sara 23:41

I mean, it's, it's there, man. I, I do have some spoilery thoughts on the relationship, so I don't wanna talk about them too much because otherwise I will wanna talk about the spoilery thing.

Lilly 23:53

fair. I did find. Neons themselves a very interesting, and I loved the way that wrath truly made these two characters feel other, like they were definitely alien in a way that I found like very enjoyable and very well done. Just for the first part, the sense of scale. Like they're sitting around thinking about a problem for three decades before they go do anything

Sara 24:23

Yeah, that was wild. Realizing just how large the scale of this novel was gonna be. Because I, I went in not knowing anything. So that revelation probably wasn't a revelation for anyone else, but for me it was.

Lilly 24:40

I. I had a vague understanding of neons being some kind of undead thing, uh, which is not super accurate,

Sara 24:50

I mean, linguistically. I see, I see where you got that

Lilly 24:52

Yeah. And they always got like skeletons and stuff just like when you see art of them. But yeah, so like when you start digging into the story and you're getting, oh, like they finished their conversation 200 years later. Like, what the fuck? And then also their thought processes too. They just, their perception was very zoomed out, large scale because of this. And I thought that was just done really well and made the book like a, a different experience to read. It wasn't just like your standard, alright, it's magic in space. Alright, let's go.

Sara 25:35

I mean, it, it did feel like an alien culture. And it, it did feel, even though it was very much magic in space, it did feel sci-fi which magic in space doesn't always manage to do.

Lilly 25:48

It was, it was pretty magical.

Sara 25:50

There's, there's a lot of magic in space,

Lilly 25:53

They're casting hexes, like it doesn't even pretend

Sara 25:57

but it, but it still had that sci-fi feel because of the neons.

Lilly 26:02

I accept. I don't know if I entirely agree, but, oh, there were also really fun timeline like manipulations in the story. So, or is I think they used the phrase chronomancer in the book.

Sara 26:18

Yes, they do. On the back of the book,

Lilly 26:21

Oh,

Sara 26:21

call him a chrono answer.

Lilly 26:23

So the, I didn't really catch on to the implications of that until the first time that you're reading a scene over again and you're going, wait, I just read this, and then it's a little bit different this time. And I was like, oh shit.

Sara 26:41

Yeah. We hear about him doing it before we see him do it. And seeing him do it was really fun.

Lilly 26:51

The way the reader experiences it on the page, I loved like, what a, what a cool way to communicate that to us without just being like, and then he casts a spill and it's five seconds earlier.

Sara 27:04

Yeah. I mean, I, I think wrath did a great job writing this book.

Lilly 27:08

I think it's, I mean, I would agree it's a really good book. It's just I am not the reader who appreciates the fight scenes.

Sara 27:16

I, this book was not for me because of the plethora of fight scenes the, the overwhelming number of fight scenes. But I don't think that that was a problem with the writing. I think that's just, I mean, my understanding is that, is that that's just Warhammer.

Lilly 27:33

Yeah, that's gotta be the target audience, right? War hammer players who want to see all of the fun guns and the different units and the neat ships. I get that. It's not me, but I get it. Who should read this book? Okay. I think this book is for me in a sense, I know I just said it wasn't, and not because of the content of the book itself, but it is a way for me, a reader to interact with Warhammer without having to play it.

Sara 28:07

I mean, I, I think that this book is for people who want to enjoy Warhammer in some way. Whether that's because they're fans of, of the tabletop game or because you know, a fan and, and want to interact with a thing that they love. I think this is a good book for that kind of person. I don't necessarily think it's a good book for someone who has no interest in Warhammer.

Lilly 28:32

No, like you, you have to want to interact with the the world. And in, in my case, it was to connect with the people around me. Not because I want to actually play War Hammer myself,

Sara 28:45

Yeah,

Lilly 28:46

But in that way it was kind of perfect. It gave me that opportunity and. Daniel was so excited. He specifically requested that we put this book on our schedule so that he could talk to us about it. That's how excited he was.

Sara 29:00

you even got it for me for Christmas so that we would have it on the schedule.

Lilly 29:06

That was all him. We had to go to like three different bookstores. The enthusiasm was high, and so just that energy going into a book means that I was going to have a good time no matter what. That was actually on the page. The fact that it was a well done book was just like gravy.

Sara 29:23

And like, don't get me wrong, I enjoyed reading this book. I stayed up late to finish it. Like I had a good reading experience. It's just not a book that I would've picked up otherwise. And it's not a book that I will go back to because I'm not interested in like War Hammer as an ip.

Lilly 29:42

100%. It was really hard for me to focus on some of those long, protracted battles.

Sara 29:48

were so many battles.

Lilly 29:49

I kept zoning out. It was bad.

Sara 29:51

Yeah.

Lilly 29:53

It was like just not, not engaging. And I don't think it's a spoiler to say that the climax of this book is a fight and the listener, it fell very flat for me.

Sara 30:08

We're gonna talk about that in the spoiler section.

Lilly 30:11

Okay. Okay. So if if you play Warhammer and you want more, definitely read this book.

Sara 30:17

Or if you know a Warhammer player and want to, to interact with things that they love, read this book.

Lilly 30:23

A much better way to do it than sitting through an eight hour game, if not longer.

Sara 30:30

Yeah, I'd, I'd much rather read this book than do that.

Lilly 30:33

So much.

Sara 30:39

This episode of Fiction Fans is brought to you by Solstice.

Lilly 30:42

That's our zine. Each issue has a different theme that celebrates genre and genre blending in a new way.

Sara 30:49

PDF, and EPUB versions can be purchased on our website and Patreon, supporters of all levels get free digital copies.

Lilly 30:56

You can find all of the issues and more at patreon.com/fiction fans pod. Thank you for your support.

Sara 31:04

The remainder of this episode contains spoilers.

Lilly 31:10

The beginning was so rough of this book'cause I was sitting there, first of all, decoding every word like. Necro dermis. Okay. Next word in the sentence. Oh no. Starting from scratch. Now, I do think most of the like Super war hammer words were decipherable, though.

Sara 31:32

There, there was a lot of jargon. It was mostly decipherable, I thought. I didn't bother to look anything up as I, as I told you and your husband. I was just going to imagine everything that I didn't know as pugs. So that's what I did. But it was really funny for me when there's a point in the novel where they're talking about the tomb of Zephyrus and where could this tomb be? They don't know where this tomb is, and then they're like, oh my gosh, it's on sil. That's, that's where the tomb of SSRIs is. And they only find it because of like star charts and things. But I'm like, really, guys? You couldn't, you couldn't match up those words.

Lilly 32:16

Especially considering we're here, or at least I was there deep reading every syllable going, what is the root word of this part? And like doing 3D Algebra, just to kind of follow along what's going on.

Sara 32:33

Yeah, I was, I was so focused on, on deciphering some of these words that maybe I was too focused because it felt too easy that particular one. But,

Lilly 32:43

I think in world you could hand wave it away with the names. Were in different languages and so just'cause we had it translated for us doesn't mean they did. But I'm maybe thinking too

Sara 32:56

there's, there's no indication that that's the case.

Lilly 32:59

No.

Sara 33:00

Like I think they just didn't make the connection.

Lilly 33:04

I think the hardest sections for me to follow, were with the Orcs. Now, orcs as a faction are very fun, extremely silly, but all of their words are just kind of goofy. And when I say their words, I mean like the, the terms for orc associated things. And so that I think is where I was the most lost.

Sara 33:29

Yeah. Their, their dialogue and the description of like their ships and things, that was hard. I did kind of gloss over a lot of it because it wasn't actually,

Lilly 33:40

Yeah

Sara 33:41

and the stuff that I didn't get, it just all became pugs.

Lilly 33:45

it was a cameo. It was just for the ORC players to go, oh, that's me.

Sara 33:49

Yeah.

Lilly 33:50

And in when the Tear Ns show up at the end, Danny did go, eh, my, my Army's in here. And then he immediately went, wait, no, no, it's not, you don't know that. Because he realized he had spoiled it, which I mean, not that much. And I also don't think they actually used the word tyran it in the book, which was rough.

Sara 34:11

It's, that's not a word that I recognize. So I think you're right that they did not use that.

Lilly 34:18

It's one of the

Sara 34:20

Oh, no, they, they do. Okay. Okay. They, they do mention it here, but I don't think they really described the characters as Tyra Ns.

Lilly 34:30

No, that was when the, um, there's the infection in the human civilization and the infected, like mutated people overthrow the government.

Sara 34:44

Ah.

Lilly 34:44

mutation was Tyra,

Sara 34:47

Okay. Okay.

Lilly 34:50

which, yeah, I did not,

Sara 34:52

Yeah. I

Lilly 34:53

not catch.

Sara 34:54

Nope, nope. Did not catch that either.

Lilly 34:57

That was a very cool part. Probably one of my favorites because while it was a long fight scene, there was like mystery and intrigue happening.

Sara 35:07

Yeah. I like, I just wanted the there to be a little bit more than, than constant battle. And so in that kind of fight scene where there was a little bit more That was fine. That was great. it was the battles where it was just about who shot who and that, where I was like, I just don't care. Just, just gimme a list of people who were dead. That's fine.

Lilly 35:30

none of the named characters

Sara 35:32

Yeah.

Lilly 35:33

is always the answer

Sara 35:34

Yeah.

Lilly 35:35

pages on pages on pages. These were long fight scenes just of, of pure action. That just was mind numbing.

Sara 35:46

This is like almost a 450 page book. I would say most of the book is just action fight scenes.

Lilly 35:56

I think I was being very generous when I said 80%. It's probably easily 90,

Sara 36:00

Yeah. I, I think you were.

Lilly 36:02

but, and yet, after all of that. I was still like, compelled to keep reading a because it was very fun for me. But e even without that, the tray in Oregon, chemistry was off the charts.

Sara 36:19

Oh, it was great. I mean, as I said, I just wanted them to kiss. I would read a oh three fan fiction of them. I don't think I'm going to, I don't think I care that much, but I would. But I also felt really let down by the relationship at the end of the book, and it's because they. they spend a lot of the time actively working against each other. And then after a certain point they

Lilly 36:44

My girl, Elia, she shows up and is like, and as punishment, there shall be only one bed,

Sara 36:50

yes,

Lilly 36:52

except in this case it was job. But, so she like put them in the We Must Get Along shirt. I'm sure you've seen those memes.

Sara 37:00

yes,

Lilly 37:01

I also, I loved Phils. She is a fairly minor character, but everyone except Reson and or, or minor characters,

Sara 37:10

yes.

Lilly 37:10

but she shows up a couple of times. She's a neon enforcer. That's not the word they use

Sara 37:16

They used.

Lilly 37:17

I think.

Sara 37:18

Yeah, they, they say something like executioner, but she is, she's basically a necron to keep everyone in line. And Reson and Orkins shenanigans, their, their rivalry gets out of hand. And so she sits them down and says that they have to get along or else. And so they, they begrudgingly agree and they do start getting along and we see their relationship kind of develop into something that could be tentatively called friendly, if not friends.

Lilly 37:50

There are still a few murder attempts, but that's kind of their love language at that point.

Sara 37:55

It really is. But so all of that was great. Like, I loved seeing, their relationship develop into something slightly warmer. I never stopped wanting them to kiss. It was, it was fantastic. And then we get to the end of the book and all of that character growth kind of just goes away. And I get it from an IP perspective because

Lilly 38:24

You have to return to the status quo.

Sara 38:26

yeah, you, you have to return to the status quo. But as a non-war Hammer fan reading this book, it felt really disappointing.

Lilly 38:36

Yeah. Now. They, they back stab each other, right? They're both like, yeah, we're definitely not gonna go back to this super cursed tomb that would totally destroy the universe. But then they both mutually lie about that.

Sara 38:53

Yeah. And, and then they also, I think or specifically says that he's going to try to kill reson again.

Lilly 39:02

So now I kind of interpreted that as just, again, being their love language. I think they're still obsessed with each other because they've been obsessed with each other through the whole book. And I reserve judgment only because. Well, now this is just me writing fan fiction. We don't know how seriously he's gonna try, you know, is it gonna be that just like pulling each other's pigtails thing or is it going to be bury him under a volcanic mountain so that the life is crushed out of him and he's truly dead? Although that's what happened to

Sara 39:37

That was, that was kind of an accident though.

Lilly 39:40

It was, but there's still like, there are genuine murder attempts and then there are, I want your attention. Murder attempts.

Sara 39:48

I mean, okay. It, that's fair. We don't see any of these following murder attempts, but it still felt too serious for me to be really happy.

Lilly 40:00

Yeah. I would've liked it to be handled differently as well. Is that just the romance reader in me? I don't think so.

Sara 40:08

Well, no,'cause I'm not, I mean, I do read romance, but I feel like you are much more of a romance reader TM than I am. I think it's, I think it's just that as a reader, you want the character growth to stick and it didn't feel like it stuck. And that's, again, that's not an issue with wrath as a writer or anything. I think that's just the constraints of. Writing this kind of ip.

Lilly 40:33

Yeah, I, I think the issue I'm having is that I don't consider it character growth as much as I do relationship development.

Sara 40:41

okay. Same, same thing. I mean,

Lilly 40:44

The fact that they're both petty bitches who were like, yeah, we totally promised not to meddle with this anymore except for this one thing. That's totally an exception that I totally buy. That doesn't bother me.

Sara 40:56

yeah. Okay. I, I guess, I think you're right. It's not character growth, it is relationship growth, but

Lilly 41:01

But there's so sincere and vulnerable with each other in that like final moment.

Sara 41:08

like, like their relationship really does grow and it feels like it genuinely grows. And so to see it backslide, like this was, you know, a hit.

Lilly 41:19

Yeah, no, I mean, I agree. I was just being a little pedantic, but because them going back to their like academic rivalry, I was like, yeah, okay, great. Except now it's like more friendly jobs instead of, you know, actually thinking they hate each other. I don't know.

Sara 41:38

I didn't get the more friendly vibes.

Lilly 41:40

No, I, I guess I meant I would've been okay with

Sara 41:43

Oh, yeah.

Lilly 41:43

I was okay with them going back to an academic rivalry if their relationship had stayed

Sara 41:49

Changed. Yes. Yes.

Lilly 41:51

because they are still absolute dirt bags. Okay. Their total disregard for all life on that planet was not exasperating because the book was making fun of them for it, but they're just so wrapped up in their own shit and they're constantly criticizing each other. Like, Oregon releases a destroyers, I

Sara 42:19

I think they're called destroyers.

Lilly 42:21

So the destroyers are neons that are kind of incorrectly resurrected. And so they're just destroyers, they're killing machines. And apparently the thing that they do is systematically wipe out all life on a planet, starting from the largest predator down to microbes. And that's just, that's, you release destroyers onto a planet, that is what's going to happen. And resin is so mad at him for it. He's so upset. He's like, he's just dooming this whole planet just for our stupid rivalry, basically. And it's like reson, you've done the exact same thing like three times.

Sara 43:03

A stunning lack of self-awareness.

Lilly 43:06

And so that like, that was actually quite funny because it's, they're just so dense in that way and it's so obvious on the page. Like one of the problems that comes up with Warhammer ip. Is Space Marines, they're, the human empire is an absolute fascist hellhole. But in a lot of the video games and things, the main characters are Space Marines. And some people interact with that media and come out thinking that the Space Marines are heroes because they're, you know, the main characters. and again, I'm not gonna get too deep into it'cause that's about the extent of my understanding, but like, they're not supposed to be, you know what I mean?

Sara 43:46

Yeah.

Lilly 43:47

that is definitely a misread of the media. And so this book, it felt like it was very much going, these guys are jerks and I refuse to allow you to see otherwise.

Sara 44:02

Yeah. I mean, it was very, very clear to me that. These characters are jerks, but also the nephrons in general are jerks. Like these two are not unique necessarily. They, they embody the aspects of the, of the Nron culture. So I have no reason to believe that any other nron would be better.

Lilly 44:27

Except for Phils, who's really mad at their bullshit

Sara 44:31

No, but she is only mad at them because they are wasting nron,

Lilly 44:36

resources lives. Yeah. I mean, yeah.

Sara 44:40

Like affiliates is no better. I just like her more.

Lilly 44:42

Yeah. Her total exasperation with them was just so much fun. Because like I, again, I wasn't exasperated because of the way Wrath handled these characters. But I was very much like, I'm so glad someone in this world is like, get your shit together, boys. No. Okay. But also rein totally tears into the humans. So this, the planet that most of this story revolves around is starts off El Dari, which were the elves that were riding dinosaurs.

Sara 45:19

Yes, that's when it's called s.

Lilly 45:21

yes. And then it's eventually human settlement and trein just totally tears the humans apart for like, exploiting this planet and ruining it. And like, look what you've done. This used to be an ocean and now it's just a dry pit. And it's like, yeah.'cause the orcs came and stole all their water. Like my dude, why is that the human's fault? And we do find out later that the the ruling class of the humans discovered that that meant that their huge oceans were a valuable resource and then sold a bunch more. So like, yes,

Sara 45:58

He's, he's got a little bit of a point.

Lilly 46:01

but it is like absolute tu not tunnel blindness, but

Sara 46:06

he is the one who releases the what was it that you said that

Lilly 46:10

the Gene Stealer cult.

Sara 46:12

yeah, he's, he's the one that releases the original Gene Stealer. And he is like, it's fine to introduce this unknown thing into this environment. Nothing,

Lilly 46:23

just thought it would be funny to watch him attack you. Aren't I quirky? Please love me

Sara 46:28

So, so he completely pays no attention to how releasing the, the gene Stealer into the environment is going to affect the ecosystem. And then he goes all shocked Pikachu face when he realizes that that one action is the reason why. The planet is essentially bombed into, into a barren shell by the humans.

Lilly 46:54

Which is so this is again one of the weird pieces of war Hammer information. I know Tyran, its are like the one thing that everyone will unite against. They're a hive mind, they're alien species that comes in. And once they get onto a planet, it's just nuke it from orbit. Sif, don't stomp on my keyboard. Come on.

Sara 47:15

SIF says, stomp on keyboard. Yes.

Lilly 47:19

All right. Goodbye. So that should have been a completely foreseen consequence, a tyranny presence on a planet. They're gonna just wipe it out because once they, once they get in, the invasion just starts coming. Which is something I know because Daniel placed Tyra Nets, so I hear a lot about them. They do not have a lot of page time in this book.

Sara 47:42

They do not,

Lilly 47:43

No. But yeah, it's all of the environmentalism screeds that resin and to a lesser extent, or go off on, just felt really weirdly shoehorned in, I think, because neither of them had any right to talk.

Sara 48:01

it, it was an odd thing for both of them to care about given their actions.

Lilly 48:08

And like, I didn't disagree with what they were saying. I was just like, you're a hypocrite.

Sara 48:15

Why are you the one saying this?

Lilly 48:17

yeah. And it came up a lot. I, I have written down at least four or five instances where I'm like, Trein, why are you going off on environmentalism?

Sara 48:29

Trey's in the environmentalist.

Lilly 48:32

Except no.

Sara 48:34

He's doing a rebrand.

Lilly 48:36

Yeah. So that felt a little bit weird and out of place. Not that the characters would be hypocrites. Like I absolutely believe that.

Sara 48:46

Just this particular aspect of their hypocrisy.

Lilly 48:49

Yeah. And maybe that was just an aspect of. The author really wanting the audience to make sure, really wanting to make sure the audience knows that what they're doing is bad. And so just like really hitting that hypocrisy on the nose, no misread characters in this novel,

Sara 49:08

No. Or you have, you have to work really hard to misread any of them.

Lilly 49:13

you'd have to be doing it on purpose and not just to clarify. Not in a way that felt condescending to me as a reader. It was just like, it was just not a gray area. It simply wasn't,

Sara 49:26

Yeah, I didn't feel talked down to at any point.

Lilly 49:29

oh yeah, this book came out in 2020. Yeah.

Sara 49:32

Oh, I didn't realize it was so recent.

Lilly 49:35

Or at least that's what my copyright page said first published in 2020. Right. There's no way for me to misunderstand that.

Sara 49:40

No, no, that that means it was published in 2020.

Lilly 49:42

Yeah. So yeah, it like, I, I don't know. I, I quite enjoyed the characters. I wish they had more page time. Even the main characters I wish had more page time.

Sara 49:54

Well, if they had had more page time, it would've meant less battles. So,

Lilly 49:59

Yeah. Okay. We talked about Phiiliius a little bit, but I also wanna talk about Ishani. She gets approaching the zero page time and then it turns out who we thought was her, like astral projection, talking to Orkin was actually the deceiver using her image, which I don't think it was a total shock that. Not Ishani herself, but that that entity was not on the up and up.

Sara 50:31

I mean, I was expecting her to turn bad. I think, I think my exact notes were. when we get the reveal of the deceiver it's not immediately clear that Ishani was also fake. So I said also I did expect ishani to be false, although they do talk the same and then five pages later, just in all caps, vindication.

Lilly 50:58

Yes.

Sara 50:59

So yeah, something clearly is up with her from the beginning. As a reader, you, you don't trust the projection of her,

Lilly 51:08

But then you find out it's because, not because Ishani is. A bad guy, but because that wasn't her to begin with which was not the twist I was expecting.

Sara 51:18

No, that was not the twist I was expecting either.

Lilly 51:20

yeah, so I like that I thought was quite good. And then everything we do end up learning about her, I was just like, damn girl. She, I, I mean, read the book.

Sara 51:33

Yeah. She was cool.

Lilly 51:35

She was really cool. And I think that's another one of the, like, there aren't a lot of female characters that get a ton of page time, but that's just because not a lot of characters other than treyson and or get a lot of page time.

Sara 51:49

Yeah. That didn't feel like a gender thing, that felt like a setup of the, or a function of the way that the book was set up.

Lilly 51:58

The world felt equally populated. Like, and the women weren't all like. Bar wenches, you know, they, they had actually like interesting stuff to do. Like Phil is the executioner and Ishani the amazing engineer slash cryptographer.

Sara 52:16

Or the ale Dari Sorceress, who doesn't have a name, but. She's still like leading the charge in the beginning. Comes out at the end

Lilly 52:25

Yeah. And she did get a great, I told you so.

Sara 52:28

and she does get an, I told you so moment.

Lilly 52:31

And that I, it feels silly to bring that up just to go. Great. Good job. Except Warhammer as an IP does have a lot of gender conversations around it, so I think it is worth mentioning a little bit.

Sara 52:43

Yeah.

Lilly 52:44

And also'cause Ishani and Phils were two of my favorite characters. I, I was actually glad that Orkin stole VII's head so that he could try to resurrect her. I was like, oh, good. Her end was like so sad.

Sara 52:58

Yeah. She deserved better.

Lilly 53:01

Yeah.

Sara 53:02

speaking of the end of the book, I don't know about you, but for me, the final battle, the, the climactic battle,

Lilly 53:11

it is like 50 fucking pages of fight scenes straight.

Sara 53:15

it's, it, yes. A it's a lot of fight scene. But not knowing anything about the ne frontier besides what I had gleaned from this book and not knowing anything about the deceiver really made the reveal that the deceiver was behind this tomb hit less. And then the final battle just being cameo after cameo like that, that has to mean more to people who have read the series. Yeah. Or, or who are familiar with the series.

Lilly 53:49

So the cameo fight scene? Yes. I actually really liked the, the deceiver twist, and I, I did not have prior knowledge of any of that stuff with the neons or anything.

Sara 54:02

I'm, I'm not saying I disliked it. I didn't dislike it at all. I'm just saying that it, it lost impact because I, for me, because I didn't know much about what had happened between the deceiver and the neck frontier initially.

Lilly 54:22

Maybe I, I felt like I had gotten enough because it's kind of the running theme. I mean, it's a nron book. We are sort of picking up bits and pieces throughout about how. The Nephrons had previously been the race called Necron Tear, and they were mortal and their God species tricked them into becoming these robot creatures so that the God could eat their souls or something. I'm pretty sure that's what it was.

Sara 54:55

Right. Like, like you do, you do get a bit of history. it's not like I didn't know who the deceiver was because I had, I had gleaned that much, just that I didn't care necessarily. I mean, like, I, I, I cared, but in a very abstract sort of way. Like I would've liked to know more about the history of what had happened between them in the past for it to really feel bad that it was the deceiver here now

Lilly 55:32

I didn't feel that way at all. Like the book spends 400 pages building up. I think Nephro was that the guy's name? the Pharaoh who's supposed to be buried

Sara 55:45

Yeah, nephro,

Lilly 55:46

it's something like that. Anyway, building up like how important this is culturally. I mean, the other nephron, I think the, their dynasties, each little nron warring affection, they actually all agree like, yeah, this is an important thing. We like should prioritize finding this out, which. I did manage to figure out was impressive that they all agreed on something. And that's what Philia says too, right? She's like, you guys have to work together to actually do this, and not just sabotage each other because you're fighting. And so I, I felt like that was pretty meaningful. And so for it to go from is supposed to be the hero of our people to, oh no, the hero of our people never existed. He was a fake all along. I did. I did feel like that was compelling.

Sara 56:41

mean, I like, I liked that it's not that I didn't like it, it's just the, the fact that it was the deceiver specifically

Lilly 56:48

Interesting.

Sara 56:49

just didn't, I felt like I didn't have enough cultural context. Like yes, I, there's plenty in the book. It's, it's not like I was floundering or anything, but I just, I wanted to know more about why this God in particular.

Lilly 57:06

His name is the Deceiver.

Sara 57:08

Yeah. I mean, you, like, you get, you get the Baha, but it didn't feel personal. Like it didn't, like, it was just very abstract. Like I understood at a, at a high level what was going on. Obviously, you, you can't not pick that up. But it just didn't feel I had no, I had no personal connection to that reveal.

Lilly 57:30

I feel like that was made up for by learning about Ish's character. We find out that she, well, we thought that she was the, like, number one loyal subject of Nephem. And so she built this amazing, incredible tomb and made a riddle that only someone worthy could open. And then we find out that she knew that he wasn't who he said he was. And she created this whole thing specifically to like, to keep him trapped and was basically the only person powerful enough to do that. And then we find her dead on the floor. I, to me, I think the ishani I don't even wanna call it a plot line'cause it's so, like, it's, it's all in that moment, but that felt personal. So you're right. For, for reson and or it wasn't particularly except for how they had been tricked. Into wanting to like become obsessed with this tomb, but I was just so in into team Ani by then.

Sara 58:38

Yeah. I mean, I, I liked Ishani, but I think you were much more into her than I was.

Lilly 58:44

It's possible.

Sara 58:46

Like, I, I liked her, but I spent the whole time going, she's, she's deceiving you for something.

Lilly 58:51

Yeah. And it, but it wasn't her, it was the deceiver.

Sara 58:55

but it meant that I didn't necessarily get as invested into that character.'cause I was like, she's, she's gonna turn out evil. Obviously

Lilly 59:03

And the fact that she didn't turn out evil is what blew my mind and was heartbreaking. And then I really, I think the problem is that I was really invested and then she has this really badass moment where, Oh, so she's been broadcasting like she's, she's dead. But her like final act was broadcasting what is basically a warning message. And that song has like, worked itself into the DNA of the planet. Did you listen to the song by any chance?

Sara 59:35

you can listen to the song.

Lilly 59:36

It's on YouTube.

Sara 59:38

I mean, I, I did not do any kind of research for this book, so I finished reading it and that was that. I did not do any Googling.

Lilly 59:48

It sounds like a lullaby. I mean, it's simple, right? It's just the, the five notes. But the, like, the sweet simplicity of it makes it even sadder. And so she's been broadcasting this song like as her dying act for millennia. And then these two doofuses break into the tomb and release what's his face? The deceiver?

Sara 1:00:18

I mean, to be fair, at that point, Orkin does try to stop. Reson

Lilly 1:00:22

yes. Or it can figured out that it was a

Sara 1:00:25

a warning. Yeah.

Lilly 1:00:26

yeah. The song was a warning.

Sara 1:00:28

I don't think he figured out it was a trick because he specifically says he doesn't know. He specifically says he doesn't know what's behind the tomb.

Lilly 1:00:37

Right. Okay. He knew the song was a warning. He knew that they shouldn't open the tune.

Sara 1:00:42

Yeah.

Lilly 1:00:43

And the song was a warning. It was the only thing that he had heard from Vish that was genuinely from the real ishani. Everything else he had gotten from her was secretly the deceiver. Anyway, these, these two do foes, break in and begin the process of releasing him just by opening the tomb and her body. Like this person, Ish's entity, is so focused on keeping this guy sealed that like she has a death. Oh shoot. What's the thing when they hit your knee and your knee moves? instinct and not impulse, but like a reaction

Sara 1:01:24

Oh

Lilly 1:01:26

reflex,

Sara 1:01:27

yeah, that's it.

Lilly 1:01:28

like her dead body has a reflex to throw out a spell. So powerful. It begins to like recon, contain this God, and then he smushes her and she's gone. And it was just like, that was so cool. Oh no. And that like, that moment was such a high for me'cause I was so into her like that reveal. I was a little bit like, well there's no way that this guy is gonna be defeated that easily. So I knew that that wasn't the end. But then to go from that into genuinely 40 pages, straight of the same fight, not broken up by anything,

Sara 1:02:08

It was, it was a lot of fight.

Lilly 1:02:10

It was such a letdown. And I think that is for us not being particularly into fight scenes, me not giving less of a shit about all of the other factions.

Sara 1:02:22

Yeah. I mean, part of, part of the hard bit was that it really did feel like just a string of cameos so that people could see their, guy.

Lilly 1:02:32

Yeah.

Sara 1:02:33

because resin pulls out essentially his museum displays.

Lilly 1:02:38

Mm-hmm.

Sara 1:02:38

And so you get people from different cultures and time periods and races and all of that?

Lilly 1:02:46

And so it wa ant you don't even get the fun, like everyone's working together vibes because he tricks them into helping him. So it's not even heartwarming.

Sara 1:02:55

No, the only one that I cared about was the El Dari because we see them specifically at the beginning of the book. So that was a, a callback and that I liked, that I recognized. But everything else I was like you're, you're just telling me War Hammer people now. That's fine.

Lilly 1:03:15

Mm-hmm. Yeah. It wasn't even callback. Some of them were callbacks to earlier in the book. But only to them fighting earlier in the book. So it wasn't like I was excited to see them again.

Sara 1:03:26

Yeah,

Lilly 1:03:27

and so it was so anticlimactic,

Sara 1:03:30

yeah, yeah. It was

Lilly 1:03:32

just it, and it like to go from that emotional high to like, oh, now we're just dragging this out. Oh man, it was not

Sara 1:03:43

I mean, again, it wasn't quite as a high of an emotional high for me, but it was still a, a fun reveal. And to go from that to, to then 40 pages of fight scenes that I didn't care about yeah, it was, it was hard.

Lilly 1:03:59

Yeah, the ending was a total bummer. Not even in like a grim, dark way. Like they do it, they defeat the God. The universe isn't destroyed. Yay. But just as a reader, it was so not compelling at all.

Sara 1:04:13

Yeah, but I mean, I think that's a, a reader book mismatch, not a fault of the book itself.

Lilly 1:04:20

And I wonder, so my trash reader tendencies give me sex scenes. They don't have to be plotty. Right. If there's someone with trash reader tendencies like that for fight scenes. Do you need to know Warhammer or do you just need to like fight scenes?

Sara 1:04:39

That's a good question. I don't know the answer to that.

Lilly 1:04:41

And to clarify, I say trash reader tendency, lovingly. I just like, there are some things that you're like, yeah, this is not progressing the plot. It does not make a good book, but I'm, I'm jamming, I'm loving it, you know?

Sara 1:04:55

Yeah.

Lilly 1:04:55

And fight scenes are not that for me. So if it is for you, I wanna know but I could totally see the cameos still being a problem because it's not like things aren't visually described very much.

Sara 1:05:09

Yeah. You just kind of have to know who they are and how they differ from the group that's come before them.

Lilly 1:05:17

Yeah. We find out that orcs are fungal, which is neat. Like that's a fun world building thing. It doesn't get gone into at all.

Sara 1:05:25

It does not.

Lilly 1:05:26

I will probably read more war hammer books just for social reasons.

Sara 1:05:33

That makes sense. I probably won't, but not out of any like distaste for War Hammer. It's just there's a finite amount of time and a lot of books that I wanna read and I don't find War Hammer compelling enough to keep reading necessarily. But I enjoyed this one well enough.

Lilly 1:05:54

yeah. And genuinely well written.

Sara 1:05:57

Yeah. I mean,

Lilly 1:05:58

I would agree.

Sara 1:05:59

actually, like it was a great book. It just happens to be a franchise that's not for me, but like I had a good time reading it.

Lilly 1:06:06

And even if I did know all of the guys, I still wouldn't like the fight scenes.

Sara 1:06:12

I would like the fight scenes a little bit better, but it still would've gotten trying.

Lilly 1:06:18

Yeah. But now I know. And now I know. The secret of Tre in an Oregon.

Sara 1:06:26

And how they just wanna kiss

Lilly 1:06:29

Yes. Really they're just upset because you can't kiss without lips. And they got metal faces

Sara 1:06:36

they could try

Lilly 1:06:38

just like a little delicate head bonk, even on the cover, finding out that the Infinite is Resons nickname and the Divine is Oregon's nickname. Like get a room.

Sara 1:06:51

is true. The title also wants them to kiss.

Lilly 1:06:55

Yeah. And the like, they're just like looking deeply into each other's eyes.

Sara 1:06:59

They totally have mouths in this picture.

Lilly 1:07:02

Yeah. And it doesn't look like they can move.

Sara 1:07:05

Well, maybe not, but I mean, they're, so, their their skin

Lilly 1:07:11

They're like C3 po faces.

Sara 1:07:14

Yeah. But like, they can move their arms.

Lilly 1:07:17

That's true.

Sara 1:07:18

just like jointed? I mean, they talk about their necro dermis as being living metal skin.

Lilly 1:07:25

that's true. That's true. They could give themselves lips if they really wanted to.

Sara 1:07:30

I don't know if it, I'd go that far. I'm not, I'm not sure they have control over their shape. But I bet that they could move their mouths.

Lilly 1:07:40

Well, I'm glad I read it and I can't wait for our follow-up conversation where we hear about what a war hammer person thinks about this book.

Sara 1:07:50

Yeah. I think that's gonna be a lot of fun to talk to Danny about, about the book. I had a good time reading it. I'm glad to have read it.

Lilly 1:07:59

Glowing Praise. Genuinely though I am, it's just the fight scenes plus the name salad gets to you over time.

Sara 1:08:09

I didn't mind the name salad as much, but I have a higher tolerance for that than you do, I think.

Lilly 1:08:14

Mm, I, I should have said reference salad.

Sara 1:08:16

Oh, the reference

Lilly 1:08:17

Is what I meant. Yeah. Na names of things. Of objects.

Sara 1:08:22

Yes. the knowing that this is a reference to something that I don't know is frustrating.

Lilly 1:08:29

Yeah. No, the number of characters was fine for me. There were like five, and I mean, you, you got scenes from like the, the human civilization on the planet. So there, there were other named characters, just not ones that were very important.

Sara 1:08:45

Yeah.

Lilly 1:08:45

They only mattered in the scene they were around for basically.

Sara 1:08:49

I mean, I wasn't thinking of, of having a higher tolerance for number of characters. I was thinking I have a higher tolerance for fantasy made up names and things,

Lilly 1:08:59

Yeah, yeah, yeah. But no, I, I was talking about the, the reference, the na names, proper names that we ought to recognize that I do not, I.

Sara 1:09:09

Yeah. Thank you so much for listening to this episode of Fiction Fans.

Lilly 1:09:17

Come disagree with us. We're on Blue Sky and Instagram at Fiction Fans Pod. You can also email us at fiction fans pod@gmail.com or leave a comment on YouTube.

Sara 1:09:28

If you enjoyed the episode, please rate and review on Spotify and Apple Podcasts and follow us wherever your podcasts live.

Lilly 1:09:35

We also have a Patreon where you can support us and find exclusive episodes and a lot of other nonsense.

Sara 1:09:41

again for listening, and may your villains always be defeated.

Lilly 1:09:45

Bye.