RERELEASE: Who Fears Death by Nnedi Okorafor

Your hosts read Who Fears Death by Nnedi Okorafor. They discuss the book's emotionally satisfying tone despite all of the content warnings (really, all of them), post-apocalyptic fantasy settings, and how great Luyu is.

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Thanks to the following musicians for the use of their songs:

- Amarià for the use of “Sérénade à Notre Dame de Paris”
- Josh Woodward for the use of “Electric Sunrise”

Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 4.0 License

Transcript

Lilly 0:05

And welcome to Fiction Fans, a podcast where we read books and other words too. I'm Lily,

Sara 0:11

and I'm Sarah, and today we're re-releasing an episode that we recorded when we first started the podcast.

Lilly 0:17

so we won't be doing our quick five minute intro this time.

Sara 0:21

During the first year of the podcast, we combined two book conversations into each episode along with some related segments like Pet Peeve Corner, and words are weird.

Lilly 0:31

We decided to republish those conversations as separate episodes to give those books a better chance to shine.

Sara 0:37

These have been slightly remastered, but you can still enjoy our Peak 2021 Microphone Technology.

Lilly 0:44

If you want to listen to the original double feature, these are episodes two through 23 in our podcast feed.

Sara 0:51

And as always, come disagree with us.

Lilly 0:55

Well, there is a book that we both read to talk about this evening.

Sara 0:58

Yes. So we both read Who Fears Death by Nnedi Okorafor published in 2010. I believe that you, Lily had read it previously.

Lilly 1:10

I did, I read it for the first time over the summer, and then I, I reread it yesterday. Confession. I procrastinated. I did reread it for this, so it's fresh and. I think the way we're going to structure this conversation is talk a little bit about the premise of the book and some of the really incredible strengths and reasons to read it, and then sort of separate that from our in more in depth discussion so that anyone who hears that and is interested won't get spoilers if they want to read it themselves. Does that sound like a solid plan

Sara 1:49

Yeah, that's, that sounds good to me.

Lilly 1:52

Right at the top? We should say, as far as content warnings go, this book is very intense and deals with some pretty extremely graphic sexual assault and extremely violent. And it's, well,

Sara 2:09

Yeah.

Lilly 2:09

you, if that's not something you need in your life to hear about in your life right now, I understand skip forward to, I. Whatever time we're done talking about this, I'll put something here. But all that being said this book is so, it's such a satisfying read. Like the end hits you so emotionally that even though it's, it's such an intense ride by the end, it's, I don't wanna say makes it worth it because the whole thing is good, but it, it's not one of those books where everything is awful and terrible and then you finish reading it and you just feel like shit.

Sara 2:52

Yes,

Lilly 2:52

You know what I mean? Like, it doesn't do that.

Sara 2:55

Yeah.

Lilly 2:55

are, there are low points, but.

Sara 2:57

I didn't know what I was getting into when I started the book. So I was very surprised at some of the very graphic, well, a very graphic rape and then the vaginal mutilation that occurs. This book had, had been sitting on my, I I bought this book probably, well, 2014, and it has been sitting on my TBR list since then, and I've always meant to, to read it and just never got around to it. But yeah, it, it's very emotionally satisfying. It, it sort of puts you through the ringer and then you, you come back out on the other side fulfilled.

Lilly 3:37

But not in any way you could possibly see coming. So other, other than the absolutely intense wild ride that is the plot. One of the other very cool things about this book that we can talk about without spoiling anything is the very. Neat setting. It takes place in, I, you know, I've, I've started seeing this in more places, but that post technology, post-apocalyptic setting where they have computers and electricity, but they don't really seem to have the like factories to make it. They're all relics. And then that coexisting with magic and spirituality in a very cool way.

Sara 4:22

Yeah, I mean, I wouldn't necessarily say that they don't, in this book, that they don't have the capabilities to create technology. Clearly they have some sort of technologies that we don't have, but it's not a focus of the book. And if those technologies do still exist, it's not something that exists in the immediate vicinity of on.

Lilly 4:45

Like you said, that's not really the focus of the book, that's just a quirk of the setting that they exist in. And it doesn't really go into it. Very deeply. Deeply, but you still get a very vivid sense of where these people live.

Sara 5:01

Yeah. I, I think a Core Four does a really good job at making you feel the setting, like, you know, these people and you, you know, where they live, and that's a skill that not everyone has, especially in, you know, 400 pages. Only 400 pages.

Lilly 5:20

I just checked the back of the book to see how much I feel like anything on the back of the book is fair. Fair game for not

Sara 5:26

Yes. Yes.

Lilly 5:29

So as we, we sort of alluded to earlier, the main character Onu is the child of rape. It's a result of a generational long conflict between two ethnic groups in this region. All of that is to say if you do have, how do you phrase, like the emotional energy to deal with the highs and lows of this book. That sounds too dramatic.

Sara 5:54

Well, if, if you are in, if you are in a place mentally where you can read about some really graphic things, then this book is really worth it. But if that's not for you right now, then you know, you, you, you do what you need to do.

Lilly 6:09

I, I mean, I cried both times. I read this book,

Sara 6:14

I see. Actually, I didn't cry that much in this book, and I'm normally a big crier when I read, which is not to say that I didn't find this, this book, emotional or emotionally taxing, like it, it definitely hits you and it hit me, but it, I just didn't, there weren't tears for me. It wasn't a tear book.

Lilly 6:35

It's just devastating. It's devastating in a good way, is that, I feel like that's fair to say.

Sara 6:43

I think. I think so. Like it's, it's harsh. It's not an easy read, but it's worth it.

Lilly 6:48

Yeah.

Sara 6:52

This episode of Fiction Fans is brought to you by Fiction Fans.

Lilly 6:56

That's us! We really appreciate our patrons, because otherwise we fund this podcast entirely ourselves.

Sara 7:03

Patrons can find weekly bonus content, monthly exclusive episodes, and they have free access to our biannual zine, Solstitia.

Lilly 7:11

You can find all of that and more at patreon. com slash fictionfanspod. Thank you for all of your support.

Sara 7:18

The remainder of this episode contains spoilers.

Lilly 7:25

Ona Sou is one of those characters who is a fantastic character and I love her, and I cannot stand the choice of, actually, that's not fair. I do have to constantly remind myself how young she is in this book.

Sara 7:39

Yeah. I mean, she is 20 at the end of it,

Lilly 7:43

She's funny. At the end of it, through a lot of it, she's like nine.

Sara 7:49

Yeah, I mean there's, there's definitely like she's, she's young in it but you kind of forget that because she goes through such harsh things.

Lilly 7:56

And it is told from her, you know, it is for her adult self telling her life story.

Sara 8:05

Yeah.

Lilly 8:06

So it is all, in retrospect, which kind of lends it a more like, even though it's a 9-year-old going through this, it's from the perspective of an adult. And so I, I definitely had to say it's, it's okay that she's being dumb. She's nine years old. Nine year olds are allowed to be brats. I'm realizing maybe we should have started with an overview of the book, just to give you some context.

Sara 8:33

I think that it can be boiled down to, on someone's birth father, blood father rapes her mother and. Then it turns out that he is this powerful sorcerer who wants to get rid of all of the, okay, K and Ona Sonu thinks that that is a bad idea. And he is a horrible person, which he is a horrible person. And so she goes on this journey to learn more about her sorceress powers, which she has inherited and stop him.

Lilly 9:06

Yeah, that.

Sara 9:07

I mean, that, that doesn't really do the story justice, but those are the, I think, the main points.

Lilly 9:14

One of the reasons why it's so difficult is part of the magic in this novel is the flow of information, and I think that was actually, that was probably one of the main conflicts in this book, is the control of information. This is something that the main character runs into ti I, I would say the first half of the book is the main character struggling to learn things because either people are keeping them from her, or no one has told her enough that she even knows she should be asking questions. However, there was a prophecy that someone was going to change this dynamic between them. And a nru sorcerer decides that it's going to be him. Dave Dib, gosh, we haven't apologized about our pronunciations yet. I'm gonna do that now. I think his name is pronounced dib. That's how we're gonna do it. He's a, a nru sorcerer warlord, basically, who does like, commits atrocities, just does really terrible, horrible things.

Sara 10:24

Yeah. He is a horrible person.

Lilly 10:26

You know, murder, mutilation, genocide. The, the list is not short or fun. At one point, he leads a gang of nru men to rape a group of Okayk woman women who were in the desert praying as you do when you're an evil warlord. And he did this to create an awo child, which is a. A mixed race person of these two ethnic groups. But the woman that dae assaults is also a sorceress. She's not a trained sorceress. Yeah, she's so that's true. In the book there, there is a difference between just someone who has magic and someone who has like gone through all of the initiation rights of sorcery.

Sara 11:13

Mean, I, I, I think there's a difference between having the latent ability and actually training that ability and being able to use it.

Lilly 11:21

well, because all of the sorcerers refuse to train women, there are no women sorcerers

Sara 11:27

That's not exactly true. I

Lilly 11:29

well, by the time the book happens, it's not true.

Sara 11:32

Yeah. But, but we have a very limited view. I mean, I, I feel like we couldn't, I wouldn't want to say that there are no women sourcers at all, just that we don't see any, but we have a very limited view of sorcerers and sorcery until much later on in the book.

Lilly 11:48

Every single sorcerer we meet is extremely sexist,

Sara 11:52

Yeah,

Lilly 11:53

so

Sara 11:54

that's, that's true.

Lilly 11:55

we don't meet a single one that is not in the entire book

Sara 11:59

I

Lilly 12:00

unless well is a sorcerer by then, but that's not the point.

Sara 12:06

But also there, there is, the other sorcerers that we meet has been in training for like a long time.

Lilly 12:13

She's 30. She passed initiation when she was nine, so like, yeah, a long time, but not like generations.

Sara 12:19

no, not not generations,

Lilly 12:21

is the first generation of sorcerers that have trained

Sara 12:24

but I, I just think that we can't actually specifically say that'cause we don't know that. I think it's likely, but I, I just, I don't, I don't like saying

Lilly 12:33

think if a Cora four wanted us to know that it was a possibility in this world, she's a better writer than to not even hint at it at all.

Sara 12:41

I just, but I mean there's no, how do I wanna phrase this?

Lilly 12:44

You are right. You can't prove a negative. Sure. That's real world talk, not reading talk.

Sara 12:50

Yeah. But, but also it just like, it doesn't, it doesn't come up like it's not

Lilly 12:54

comes up a ton.

Sara 12:55

I was gonna say whether or not there are women sorcerers. Outside of, of where this conflict takes place, or this book takes place. Doesn't really,

Lilly 13:03

Well, sure, there could be a whole moon full of women sorcerer aliens, but that's not really relevant in this culture. There aren't any

Sara 13:11

we haven't seen any.

Lilly 13:13

I, I think if there were any in this world, then the author would have shown that to us. The entire first half of this book is the main character going through hell and high water to try to convince some old fuck to teach her magic.

Sara 13:30

Yeah. I mean, he, he is an old fuck, a sexist old fuck. There's no doubt about that. And a lot of these people are very sexist.

Lilly 13:39

All right. Then what did you think of the book?

Sara 13:41

I liked it. I mean, it was a hard read. Like I said, I wasn't. I didn't know anything about it going forward except that I had had this book on my to read list for years and years and years, and I am generally not. I want happy endings and I wouldn't necessarily call this a happy ending. It is a hopeful ending maybe, but not really happy. I also don't like a lot of character deaths and this ends with a lot of character deaths and some maybe character deaths. If I had known some, some of the plot points, I probably wouldn't have read it'cause I like, like I said, I like happy things, but it was a really good book. I'm glad that I did read it and it dealt with really powerful subject matter.

Lilly 14:25

It, it did, and I, I end up being of two minds of a lot of these characters because on one end they fit into the story and they work together and. You, you watch them struggle and sometimes prevail and sometimes make very bad decisions and their flaws are very, none of them are sugarcoated. Even Ona, like from the very beginning, she admits like, my temper is my greatest weakness. So then every time her temper gets into her into trouble, it's just like, well, yeah. Okay.

Sara 15:01

There's definitely no sugar coating. These characters like they are period.

Lilly 15:09

When it comes to like, so like as characters, they're all very good and wonderful, but like I could not stand a single one of them. That's not true. I liked Luu On's friend, and I liked On's parents.

Sara 15:22

She is great. Yeah.

Lilly 15:24

Luu is the only one I don't even like on really, like I wouldn't be her friend.

Sara 15:29

On, on, yeah. I like, but a lot of the characters, I, I do find kind of unlikeable.

Lilly 15:37

I wouldn't be able to be friends with her because how could you look someone in the eye who is in a relationship with a guy like Muta and say, oh yeah, you make good choices.

Sara 15:47

I didn't think he was that bad.

Lilly 15:49

Oh, he was awful.

Sara 15:50

I mean, I think that he has some sexist feelings that he is working through.

Lilly 15:57

I don't get the impression that he is working through them. I get the impression that he is hiding them.'cause he knows they make, oh yeah. Mad. Maybe that's just a different read.

Sara 16:06

that's, yeah, like I, I thought that, that he was trying, maybe not necessarily successfully, but he was trying to, to be better. We also, like, again, they're both young and we don't see them as mature adults. Because, just because the novel takes place. I mean, they're, they're 20 at the oldest. Well, I think Muta is a little older maybe. But

Lilly 16:29

is like 22.

Sara 16:30

yeah. I mean, that's still a baby.

Lilly 16:33

That's true. I mean, he, he had also been training or see not training to be a sorcerer'cause he, you have to pass initiation. He was learning magic and did not pass initiation to be a sorcerer. And his jealousy that Onne did, I actually have no problem with. That's fair.

Sara 16:54

I think that's very understandable.

Lilly 16:56

Yeah, that's fine. And that I think he does struggle with and try to overcome, but he is so hypocritical. I think one of, like, the biggest, the most clear example of that is when they are in the, what is it? There's, what's the village called when they're in Solu which is the, the nomadic traveling village inside the eye of a dust storm.

Sara 17:21

is so cool.

Lilly 17:23

So cool. That, that was probably my favorite part of the whole book, was the VA people and that whole like, community.

Sara 17:29

Yeah, I think I would have to agree with you.

Lilly 17:31

But when they're there and a spirit shows up to do goodness knows what, because they're not necessarily benevolent and UNE doesn't wanna go. She, you know, she's hesitating about going out and facing it, and Muta is like, stop being such a woman. Like you're a coward. What's wrong with you? And then the second they both get out there, he's like, oh no, wait. Don't go, what are you doing? Like he's terrified and it's like, yeah, you shithead. He goads her and calls her a coward. Anytime she hesitates. But anytime she doesn't hesitate, he calls her an emotional irrational woman. There is no winning with him. Everything she does is wrong. At no point does he go like, yes, you made the right choice. Good for you. All he does is bandage her up and complain about it the whole time.

Sara 18:19

I don't, I mean, I don't have any, like that was not the impression that I got from the book at all.

Lilly 18:25

Ugh,

Sara 18:25

I, I didn't, I, I don't have one specific like scene that I can point to, to refute you, but, but I, I definitely, like, I didn't, I, mean, I I don't necessarily particularly care all that much for him, but I think that he cares for her.

Lilly 18:42

sure. But I don't think he respects her.

Sara 18:45

think, I mean, I, again, I disagree there. I, I think that he does respect her, but he is battling his feelings about the internalized sexism that, that he has that's been reinforced.

Lilly 18:57

That's not internalized, that's just sexism.

Sara 19:00

Well, okay. That's, that's just sexism. Yeah, you're right. But, but so he's, he is battling the sexism that, that is, you know, reinforced by the culture and by all of his mentors, and he's not always successful at it.

Lilly 19:13

I, I don't remember a single instance where he is not sexist towards her,

Sara 19:18

I mean, but on the other hand, I don't, I I couldn't tell you that, like, I wouldn't say that he is always sexist, torture her, so

Lilly 19:26

but you don't have proof that he wasn't, so, I

Sara 19:29

that's

Lilly 19:29

I got more,

Sara 19:30

didn't, I didn't make notes, copious notes as I was reading. I should have, but I just, I didn't,

Lilly 19:37

but all of that are like complaints on a, on a like person. Personhood level

Sara 19:43

yeah, I mean, that's, that's,

Lilly 19:44

as a character. He is very good. That's a completely different conversation

Sara 19:49

that's, that's separate.

Lilly 19:50

because he is a very good foil for Onne because, you know, he's, he's also Awo, but he was born from parents who loved each other. And so you have that like huge huge comparison. And then you also get just the, the way the characters balance each other out and move through the story is very well done.

Sara 20:11

Yeah, I, I think that they're a very well-balanced pair.

Lilly 20:15

Have you ever had to look a friend in the eye and say, I would never date your boyfriend, but that's okay.'cause I'm not the one doing it. Like, that's kind of how I feel like I would shoot myself before I dated someone like him. So I do not understand what anyone could possibly see in him as a partner. But I'm not the one doing it, so I guess that's fine. Like it, honey, if you wanna sign yourself up for a lifetime of belittlement, you do. You

Sara 20:43

I, again, I don't think that he belittles her as much as you say that he does, is

Lilly 20:48

He really does.

Sara 20:50

really, I really, that is not, that is not what I got out of it. But also I still probably would not want to date him either.

Lilly 20:58

Yeah. Right. It, it reminds me a little bit of the relationship between dt one of Anya's friends and her re her fiance Fane. Their, their relationship starts when they're very, very young and Fane gets super butt hurt because all of the young women in the village are cursed to feel pain instead of pleasure sexually. Right. That's, that was one of the big things that happens when they're 11.

Sara 21:27

Until they get married. The curse gets resolved when they get married.

Lilly 21:31

So Fani gets mad at her and like won't speak to her for years because they were fooling around and she was in pain and he took that as an insult. And later on, as they leave the village with Oye and DT sort of discovers the world outside the village, her, her world is expanded. She meets other people. She's no longer cursed because Onya cures that for her friends. And she realizes suddenly that Fani is not her only choice. That's something Luu said at the beginning. Luu is my favorite character.

Sara 22:11

I, I like Luu a lot. Yeah.

Lilly 22:13

She's fantastic. When the girls first find out the full consequences of the curse, Luu says they make us feel only pain. So when our husbands first touch us, we will think they're Gods. Or something like that. That's not quite right. The only boy that's ever nice to Oye is Muta. Of course, she's gonna fall in love with him. Literally the only person in the whole world who's nice to you. That's that's not a relationship of love. That is like Stockholm Syndrome. That's not fair. It's not Stockholm syndrome. He's not keeping her there, but

Sara 22:51

Yeah, I mean I,

Lilly 22:53

it's not like she chose him out of multiple options.

Sara 22:57

yeah, I mean, if there were more people, then maybe her, her choice would've been different. But I do think that she loves, like they have genuine feelings for each other, not just because they're the only OU around and no one else wants them. I don't think it's entirely unhealthy, but I won't argue that it's not entirely healthy either.

Lilly 23:19

I had one other thing I wanted to talk about. It's very short though. Solu, the sort of granddaddy sorcerer, if you will. At some point he talks about DA's plans to wipe out the okay K people. And he refers to it as a revolution. And that is just bonkers to me. The niru are already like. Control. That's not a revolution. That's just genocide. Like, what are you talking about? Like, like what? No that's not here nor there. That's not a conversation. That's just like, so honey, what are you doing?

Sara 24:02

yeah. Maybe, maybe not the best word choice right there.

Lilly 24:07

Like what I think my favorite part of the whole book was, oh man, is his name Solu and the Village named Solu.

Sara 24:18

No, they're not the same.

Lilly 24:20

I think I wrote it down. I might have written it down wrong.

Sara 24:25

I, I really don't think they're the same.

Lilly 24:27

Well, one has more S's in it, is why I didn't realize it until just now, but yeah, it's the same, right? Oops, not, oops. I'm probably pronouncing one of them wrong. Is really what that means. The nomadic tribe called Solu is definitely my favorite part of the book.

Sara 24:47

Yeah. I think that's my favorite part too. I partially because I feel like that's the, the happiest part

Lilly 24:54

I was gonna say, it's just nice.

Sara 24:56

Yeah.

Lilly 24:58

They're also so cool. Oh my God.

Sara 25:02

Yeah. I would, I would love to explore. Just their, their tribe more. I think that would be a really interesting world building book to see more of them.

Lilly 25:15

A huge polyamorous tribe that lives in the center of a miles long dust storm is the coolest thing. I don't wanna re, I

Sara 25:23

cool.

Lilly 25:24

I just wanna live there like, I mean, sure. A book is as close as I'll get, but that's the coolest thing ever. And I just love the image of all the little kids just running around and eating a meal with whoever is the closest.

Sara 25:43

Yeah, it's, it's very congenial.

Lilly 25:46

And then also, like you said, it's the happiest. This is the

Sara 25:49

Yeah.

Lilly 25:50

this is the first society that hasn't been cruel to oe. There's been people of course but as far as like an actual group, I think they're the only ones. Okay. You're telling me you didn't cry when Oe at the very end of the book, it's the climax. OE is about to rewrite not only the future, but all of history and completely change the world, and they're on this little island. They're surrounded by people coming to attack them. They're like, you know, on boats, they're coming for'em. We just had this crazy chase and Luu says, you go like, I'll hold them off. That didn't make you cry.

Sara 26:37

that's the closest I can there, there might have been one or two tears, but it wasn't like an outpouring of tears.

Lilly 26:45

Oh. I mean, I wasn't sobbing, but there

Sara 26:48

No, but I, like, I, I saw the books and I didn't sob at this one. I, I feel like this book, it was like a quiet sort of introspective book.

Lilly 27:01

Pain

Sara 27:02

Like yeah,

Lilly 27:03

for, every part of this book. I think maybe except for how much I loved Luu and just that being her, her way of going out. I was just like, oh, it hit me.

Sara 27:17

I, I was very, yeah.

Lilly 27:20

she also has the, well, I'm not gonna say it, she doesn't have the best character art.'cause of course Oye, you know, grows and learns. But I think Luu has the most dramatic one.'cause she goes from this pampered, precocious child and she takes that and she owns it and becomes just this force of nature. But then as UNE brings up over and over again in her narration with zero magical powers, doesn't give a fuck.

Sara 27:55

That is her magical power.

Lilly 27:57

Yeah. Oh, I love it. She just goes face to face with like these. Incredible horrifying things. I mean, the horrifying people things. But then also she stares magical spirits down and is just like, yeah, girl, I'm here for you. It's like, oh, she's the best.

Sara 28:21

I, I do like Luu. Yeah.

Lilly 28:25

I don't think she should have slept with Fani, but I get it.

Sara 28:29

No woman is perfect,

Lilly 28:30

Yeah. She also was the, well, she does hide it at first, but I appreciate, like she was the one who was most sincere during that whole thing. I think she was like, yeah, I'm not in love with him, but this is the first time I've been able to sleep with someone and not been in unimaginable pain. So yeah, I'm gonna take that opportunity. Like was that kind No, but it's honest. I.

Sara 28:59

Yeah. I mean, I, I feel like the whole group is just evidence of the fact that not all friends travel well together.

Lilly 29:09

That's true. They're also, as we said, like 20, so gosh, who doesn't do unintentionally mean things when they're 20?

Sara 29:19

This is very true,

Lilly 29:21

The, the last thing I have, which is not actually a complaint, is more of a, a comment on my weird prejudices against first person, POV. I almost didn't read this book. I bought it. I picked it up. I read like two pages and went, oh, no.

Sara 29:44

but okay, so,

Lilly 29:46

I,

Sara 29:47

so I have a question though.

Lilly 29:48

mm-hmm.

Sara 29:49

When you bought it, did you not like open it up to read the first like bit and notice that it was first person?

Lilly 29:56

I don't go to stores. I bought it

Sara 30:00

see, I'm thinking what I, that's true. I'm, I'm thinking, oh, I bought my book, you know, five years ago. You must have too. No, that's not the case.

Lilly 30:10

And this isn't archive of our own, where they tag if it's in first person perspective or not. All I read was the back, and that doesn't tell you,

Sara 30:21

That's true.

Lilly 30:22

is good because I probably would've not bought it and that would be terrible.'cause it's very good. I, it is just funny because I really like, have a hard time with first person, but I got over it'cause this book is really well done and I didn't even, I'm not gonna say I didn't even notice it because Anya's voice is very important to the story. But even my, even my weird hangups were no match in the face of this excellent book.

Sara 30:58

Thank you so much for listening to this episode of Fiction Fans.

Lilly 31:02

Come disagree with us! We're on BlueSky and Instagram at fictionfanspod. You can also email us at fictionfanspod at gmail. com or leave a comment on YouTube.

Sara 31:14

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Lilly 31:21

We also have a Patreon, where you can support us and find exclusive episodes and a lot of other nonsense.

Sara 31:28

Thanks again for listening, and may your villains always be defeated. Bye!