Palestinian Solidarity, Period. w/ Nuha Khoury and Sam Bahour

This week on the podcast, it's all about our Palestinian siblings and how we get involved to end the occupation of their land and dignity by the Israeli state.

Special Guests:
Dr. Nuha Khoury, Vice President for Academic Affairs at Dar al-Kalima University College of Arts and Culture
Sam Bahour, Palestinian-American Businessman & Consultant

Resources:
Sam Bahour blog
Bright Stars of Bethlehem
Dar Al-Kalima University

For Listening Guides, click here!
Got a question for us? Send them to faithpodcast@pcusa.org!
A Matter of Faith website

Transcript

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Speaker 1 0:01

Hello and welcome to a Matter of Faith, a Presby podcast, the podcast where we respond to your questions and comments on issues of faith, social justice, and church life. Don't be afraid to write in and ask your question because if it matters to you, it matters to us, and it just might be a matter of faith,

Speaker 2 0:20

Whether it be faith in God, faith in others, or faith in yourself. We are brought to you by the Presbyterian Peacemaking Program and Unbound the interactive journal on Christian Social Justice for the Presbyterian Church usa. I am your host, Lee Cato,

Speaker 1 0:37

And I'm your host Simon Dune .

Speaker 2 0:39

Without further ado, let's dive into today's questions.

Speaker 1 0:46

Well, hello everyone and welcome again to a matter of Faith, a Presby podcast. I am joined by the weary eyed Lee Cato Lee, how are you in the future? Hi

Speaker 2 0:59

Simon.

Speaker 1 0:59

At least for me this

Speaker 2 1:01

Is , yeah. Uh , this is Lee from the Future again. Uh , hello everyone. I am still in Israel Palestine and I will be here for another three nights I think. So I've been here a little while, and right now we are in, uh, Tiberius . We are on the Sea of Galilee, so I am coming from you from the coast of the Sea of Galilee and it is actually really beautiful and it is, yeah, it's one of the more beautiful places I've ever seen. So I'm very grateful to be here and to be able to, to see the places I'm seeing today. We went to, to the Jordan River and we got some water out of the Jordan and we reaffirmed our baptisms and we also went to Erum , which is where Peter lived. And yeah, there's all kind of things we've done and we're kind of, it's funny because we are at a very fast pace, and so we are saying we are running where Jesus walked because we are literally packing things in and it is very exhausting, but it is very beautiful. And driving through this part of Israel, I can kind of see why people wanted to live here and be here. So yeah, it's been a good trip on this . Well , that's good to Bethlehem, you know, so we've been all over the place.

Speaker 1 2:41

Yeah. Well, just as a reminder again to folks, if you're interested in following along, uh , with Lee's Adventures on the Mosaic of Peace Conference, you can check out both, um , unbounds Facebook page, as well as the Presbyterian Peacemaking Programs Facebook page, as well as the Swords into Plow Share's blog, which is the blog for the Presbyterian piece making program. We've got some video footage and some photos and, uh , reflections from folks who are on the trip with Lee and also from Lee . So you feel free to check those out and we continue to pray for, for you Lee, and for the folks that you are with, that you, uh , have safe travels until the end of the conference.

Speaker 2 3:27

Yeah, thank you. I need my, I need some prayers cuz I was telling Simon I burned myself <laugh> second degree burn on a electric tea kettle . If you're out there folks and you have an electric T kettle, make sure that the bottom doesn't come along with the top part because it can tip over and sco your hand and give you second degree burn. So, but I was also telling Simon, luckily in Israel you can get antibiotic at the pharmacy and just ask them, the pharmacy looks at you and tells you like, you know, this is what you need. You don't need a prescription. And it's actually really handy, especially if you're traveling. So just a fun fact. Be careful with those T kettles . Yeah . Chicken burger.

Speaker 1 4:22

Yep . Be , yeah , be careful and we're praying for you as a , that's a just sort of another thing to have to sort of deal with while traveling and being on the move. And, uh, speaking of thoughts, prayers, um , we did want to just briefly highlight for our news segment, uh , this week we did wanna offer prayers for the families and the students at the University of Virginia after the shooting over the weekend in which , uh , took the lives of three University of Virginia football players. There are also some other students, I believe, that are still in the hospital. Uh, so we are praying for them, praying for the University of Virginia community. Yeah. And we are, well, I don't know if I should say we are praying for, but we are waiting to see as we hear more election results as of this time. Um, I believe the Democrats have won the Senate, uh, the Republicans have won the house of, uh , representatives a as of this point. And also interestingly, the other day, uh , it was announced that former president Donald Trump has, uh , filed for his candidacy for the 2024 elections. So it will be interesting to see how these things develop. Yeah. Um, and that is not quite unexpected, but maybe not something everyone was, uh , hoping to hear again, depending on, on your political preferences. But that is, uh , some of the latest developments. And with that in mind though, uh, this week's episode is actually gonna be very special because Lee has had the wonderful opportunity to sit down with a couple special folks while he's been on the Mosaic of Peace Conference. And, uh , Lee you can give us a a little background on that before we cut to your, uh, to your discussions with them .

Speaker 2 6:23

Yeah. So I got to have some conversations with two people as we are continuing the Mosaic of Peace Conference and just a little bit of preference for people who are listening about the con about the relationship and the conflict between Israel and Palestine and the occupation. And when I say occupation, meaning that Israel creating settlements, which are kind of like, they're kind of like these, uh , developments like we would see in the us but they are being developed in and on Palestinian land that is technically illegal, be due to international law. And, and so we are here to learn about that conflict and learn about the ins and outs of how, how things have happened, and then also checking in with our Palestinian partners, but also talking to Israelis who were in solidarity with our partners here in Palestine. And so I got to talk to some wonderful Palestinian partners, and one of them being in Dr . Neha Corey , who works for the Daral Kma University, which is a university in Palestine near Bethlehem that really empowers young people in the arts and they do wonderful programming when it comes to the arts and kind of living into that history that Palestine has of, of being artists and creators and musicians. And then I also got to talk to Sam Bor , who is a consultant and who is a businessman and who is actually an American Palestinian who moved to Palestine and is now really being an advocate for the Palestinian people when it comes to a , a lot of the ways in which the occupation is happening. And he , and he , in our conversation, he really does talk about how it's not only settlements, but it's also through tech and through agriculture and through economy that the state of Israel is in many ways, uh , really deteriorating the rights of Palestinians, both within Israel and within Palestine. So it's been great getting to know them and getting to know people here, and we had great conversations and I hope you get something from it and I hope you ask more questions of us. And if you have any questions, you should send them to the email faith podcast p c usa.org . And also if you want more information, we're gonna put some links into the show notes that we'll kind of get you connected to those. But yeah, we want y'all to ask questions about this because this is something that we are gonna talk about more and more because it's happening more and more, especially since I've been here. More settlements are happening and more rights are being taken away and it really is something that we should all be talking about. So yeah, it was a great conversation with these two and I think it'll be good. So I hope everybody gets something from the conversations. So joining us today on the podcast is Sam, who , who is an activist and a writer and a businessman in Palestine, and he is joining us in the podcast today. And we are so grateful that he is with us. So welcome, Sam.

Speaker 3 10:16

Thank you. It's great to be with you

Speaker 2 10:19

And Sam. Uh , before we kind of get down into like, details about Palestine, uh , what is Palestine and what should we know? Yeah. Before we kind of get into the details of it all,

Speaker 3 10:33

That's actually a very good place to start because when we say Palestine, it means different things to different people. Palestine could mean historic Palestine between the river, the Jordan River and the Mediterranean Sea. That is historic Palestine. That is the Palestine that is in most Palestinian's hearts. However, politically, when we say Palestine today in 2022, what we're talking about is the West Bank, east Jerusalem and the Gaza Strip, uh , that Palestine has been recognized by over 138 countries of the world, the majority of the world, and has a seat at the un. That Palestine today is, uh, about 6,020 kilometers squared, uh , that would be equivalent to 2,320 square miles. Tiny, a tiny country. It's between the size equivalent between Delaware and Rhode Island and the US to get a your mind around the size, it's a neighborhood in a big city basically. Uh , and that is the area that today is the occupied territory, and that's the area that everybody in the world is calling for the occupation of that area to end. So that's Palestine.

Speaker 2 11:49

And before this, so Sam joined our group, and as many of y'all know, we're on this Mosaic Peace Conference trip, and Sam was a speaker and Sam talked about the maze of occupation. And so Sam, I wonder if you can talk a little bit about what that means and some of the, just some of the details you shared with us today, because I think it would really help our listeners to , to fully understand more.

Speaker 3 12:16

Sure. Let me start by just identifying who the Palestinian people are. Uh , we are 15 million in numbers. The majority of Palestinians do not live under military occupation. That's an important concept. Uh , we have, uh , two , 2 million Palestinians, if not a little bit more, that live inside the state of Israel. They are Israeli citizens, they're both Muslim and Christian Palestinians. We have about 5 million Palestinians who are refugees and they are scattered throughout the occupied territory. Syria, Lebanon, Jordan, et cetera . And then the rest of the Palestinians, about 2.6 million, are in the diaspora. Uh , which means they're out of the region. Like my father who's in Ohio, or the largest community of Palestinians abroad, which is in San Diego, Chile. Um , so that's the Palestinian community at large. That community has been forcefully fragmented by the Israeli military. Refugees are not able to come home. Goins are not able to reach the West Bank, and the West bankers are not , are not allowed to go to Gaza, et cetera , et cetera , et cetera . So Israeli forcefully fragmented our community geographically on the ground. There's, for example, the legal systems are a multitude. We have, uh, ottoman, uh , rules that apply to a lot of the land deals here. For example, the, the deed of a land is called tobo . Tobo is not an Arabic world , it's a Turkish word. Uh , so we have some lingering Turkish laws that apply here. We have then some lingering British laws because the British had a mandate here and they had legislated a lot of, uh , laws here that we still use today. Uh , after Israel was created in 1948, Jordan took over the West Bank and Egypt took over Gaza's strip and they both legislated. So we have some lingering Jordanian laws and Egyptian laws. And then when the Oslo accords happen , we actually have a Palestinian legislative body that was created and we started to legislate for ourselves. When the occupation happened as well, the Israelis started to issue military orders as an occupying power. And those military orders override everything. Today when Israeli military, when the Israeli military issues a military order, that's what they implement. They don't care about any other legislation on the ground. And then I would just end that part by saying we also have the fourth Geneva Convention, which applies here because that is the law of occupation. When a country is occupied, uh , uh , the law of Occupation says what the occupier can and cannot do. And we're learning this today with Ukraine and Russia, uh , because Ukraine today, parts of it are under a military occupation as well. We also have a lot of un resolutions that apply here. Uh , specifically we have 700 and, uh , 54 general assembly resolutions, 754 if you can believe that 97 Security Council resolutions, 96 resolutions from the Human Rights Council . So there's , there's no dearth of, uh , knowledge of what needs to be done. Uh , they have all been documented par excellence . Um, the idea is what we're going to do to end this occupation in a very political and serious way in order for Palestinians to have a sovereign state that they can have their own laws and currency and so forth. Currency today, for example, I have in my pocket the new Israeli shekel is with the , the currency that we use to buy falafel sandwiches. Uh , but when we want to have a , a big ticketed item like a house or a car or a business, many of those deals are done in dollars or in Jordanian dinar because Jordan , the Jordanian dinar is pegged to the US dollar. We also have in our pockets euros because we have a lot of European business transactions that happen. So even in terms of currency, without having a proper Palestinian currency, we're forced to use many other people countries currencies, which creates more complication on the ground . I can go on and on, but the fragmentation is legal, it's currency, it's it's geographic and it's physical.

Speaker 2 16:24

And you also talked a lot about how cuz we're predominantly from the US and or living in the US and how the US has really been a, a financer of much of what's happening here in Israel and in Palestine specifically when it comes to the military. And I wonder if you can talk a little bit about, cuz some of our listeners may not even know how much the US is a contributor to all this. So I wonder if you can speak a little bit about that connection and , and why it does matter for the US to understand this and for people to in the US to kind of speak out and do some of this work.

Speaker 3 17:05

Very, very important question. It , the US not only has been a supporter of Israel since the 11th minute after their creation specifically, but they are today clearly a co-partner with Israel in our occupation. They don't only finance Israel, which they do to the tune of about $4 billion a year. That's $10 million a day . Mm-hmm . <affirmative> and Michigan doesn't have clean water. There's something wrong with that equation. Yeah . Uh , but not only financially, but they also arm Israel to the teeth. Um , they also turn a blind eye to Israel having nuclear weapons. They cover for Israel in the Security council. They are basically Israel's lawyer in the international community. All of that together has made the US a co-partner in this military occupation that is very different than what we hear from the politicians who keep repeating that there are shared values between the US and Israel. What are they talking about? The shared values of bombing Gaza, the shared values of house demolitions, the shared values of arbitrary arrests, the shared values of, uh, uh , dominating of another people for 55 years. Those are not shared values. That's just the opposite of shared values. That is a , a rogue country that the US is supporting. Israel is a rogue country. It is drunk on power and it has the US to back it up. The entire world has stood up and said through these 754, uh , general assembly resolutions and 97 Security Council resolutions, they have said what has to happen? What has to happen is the Israeli military occupation has to end. And that would mean for the US to allow the international will to be applied and not to keep vetoing and covering up for these Israeli acts. What that means for the US is a lot of things first, and we see this very clearly today, the more the US embraces a right wing Israeli government and Israel has been moving more right wing every election, especially the last one, the more the US loses its credibility in the region, if not globally. Today, the US foreign policy is measured by what it allows and doesn't allow to happen in Israel. And if it is allowing Israel to do all the wrongs, countries like Russia tell the US what are you standing against us for? You're allowing your ally Israel to do the same thing to the Palestinians that we're doing to the Ukrainians. So we will as the US not be in a position to hold others accountable if we allow for this illegal actions to continue to be taken here. Mm-hmm . <affirmative> , and as I said before, that's in addition to the mind boggling amount of funds that every single year are sent to Israel. Mm-hmm . <affirmative> , when we have, I'm from Youngstown, Ohio originally. We have bridges that need repaired. We have roads that are in bad shape. We have industry, that industry that has collapsed. Michigan, as I said, doesn't have clean water and we can just send 10 million a day to Israel to the tune of 4 billion a year for the last 50 years. There's something wrong with that equation. Yeah .

Speaker 2 20:26

And it's interesting here cuz yesterday we went to the Holocaust remembrance, um, center and then, and in hearing even even President Biden at one point used the word, you know, or kind of refer to himself as a Zionist in a way, in in America there is is this, I feel like there's this weird connection. Well, Christian nationalism for one kind of plays into this Zionism as well, that, that even the groups here that come in tour and you talked about tourism being one of these ways in which is the maze of occupation contributes to this kind of American idealism of what Israel is. And it's so, it is very devastating that we many Americans may not can move past, you know, the visuals of the Holocaust, which were awful, which was terrible. And past that and also see a , a kind of a both. And yes, this happened to these people, but also this is also happening and what that means. And yesterday we were talking about kind of a generational trauma that people in this area are going through and what that does and how that manifests and how all this is connected. And so, yeah, I wonder what we, what we go, what we do now, specifically as people in the US and the faith community who we identify ourselves as Christian, what do you see as the way in which we can, what do we do and how do we help move forward these, these initiatives in which Palestinians can be free? Because we see our own issues in the US of how marginalized communities are not free at all in our country. So what would you say would be, or what do we do?

Speaker 3 22:23

I think it's important to recognize what you noted, which is any sane person will acknowledge that the holocaust not only happen , but should never happen again to anybody. Uh , and that's something we Palestinians acknowledge. Uh, and it's also something that we had nothing to do with. That is an act that happened in Europe basically by a very racist societies, uh, Christian as well. Uh , that, uh , should never happen again in history. That being said, there is a new human tragedy not to be compared with any other one because human tragedy should not be compared. They should be acknowledged a new human tragedy that was created when Israel forcefully was created as a state and the became stateless. And that atrocities that have happened over the last 74 years must be acknowledged if we want to be able to move forward. Um, so although we acknowledged the Holocaust, we also must say we had nothing to do with the Holocaust. We were not party to that tragedy, but we were not shy away. We cannot, as humans shy away from our own tragedy, which is, uh , a tragedy in its own right. Again, not to be compared to anything else. And I think if the international community wants to make sure that the new operating system that the world woke up to after World War ii , which is the operating system of international law, that that has to be applied to everyone, including the state of Israel. Um , and Israel today is, uh , basically ignoring, uh , bluntly, blatantly publicly, uh, the international community's rules, uh, and the international communities will to comply with international law and, and this military occupation today, they do just the opposite. Israel doesn't recognize it as an occupation. Only they and Trump do not recognize it as a military occupation. The rest of the world understands this is a military occupation. And I tell my Israeli friends, if it's not an occupation, then what is it? Is it one state from the river to the sea? If so, why wasn't I allowed to vote in the last Israeli elections? You can't have your cake and eat it . Two . Um, and I think anyone who has a question about is it that bad, as the Palestinians have been crying for the last decades, today, have documents that they can read. You have the main human rights organizations in Israel and the world have acknowledged in documentation that Israel has passed the threshold of occupation. And basically today is violating the crime of a apartheid human rights watch, uh , amnesty International be SEL in Israel. Yes , Dean in Israel, the Presbyterian church itself have all acknowledged that Israel is violating a codified crime called a apartheid. That should be bad enough for us all to act mm-hmm . <affirmative> . And we're not talking about throwing Israel on the sea. There's no one saying that today. What we're saying is that we recognize Israel's existence. Actually the Palestinians formally recognize the state of Israel. And today in 2022, Israel has yet to recognize the state of Palestine. Uh , so we would be well advised to pressure Israel to recognize the state of Palestine in order for two states to be created and to end the military occupation. So we can start the , the process of rehabilitation. I see there is hope. I see more voices in Congress are speaking out. Uh , I just was watching the elections results yesterday, and you have people who are outspoken for Palestinian rights, who have won their, uh , another term in Congress that is all very positive. The younger Democrats are already aligned with Palestinian rights and holding Israel accountable. And I think the more we move forward, the more we're gonna see that the, the , the ground swell of support in churches, in minority communities, uh , is going to reach the political level. And we can already see that happening. And sooner or later it will reach into policy, uh , US policy. That doesn't happen by itself. It needs all of our work. And to be very honest with you, the Presbyterian church is in the lead. They were in the lead about divesting from Israel 10 years ago, and today they're in the lead about holding Israel accountable for its violation of the crime of a apartheid. And I, I salute that.

Speaker 2 26:55

And we also want to give you a little bit of time. I know you have a blog and you mentioned a lot of the things that are on there that many people should go out and read. And so I wonder if you could give that summary again, because I think it'd be very helpful and we'll make sure to put the link of your blog on our show notes so people will be able to get there. But tell us what's on there and kind of the main things we should look for, uh , for people to read.

Speaker 3 27:18

I, I appreciate you doing that. That's, that's the real way to move forward because there's a lot of information that needs to be digested. My blog is e Palestine. Ps uh , it's a very easy one to remember. Uh , PS is the Palestine top level domain, E Palestine ps you will find that that blog, uh , recommended readings, recommended documentaries, and, uh , things that I write in a tab called from Sam's Desk. On the right hand side of the blog, you will find three reports that I keep updated, which is the last report from the un special repertoire on the occupied territory today. It's Francesca Albanese, an amazing woman. She just issued her first report that you will find at that link. Also, on the right hand side, you'll find another report from Unad , which is the UN Trade Outfit, and that talks about trade in Palestine. And the third report is a report that comes out every six months from the World Bank, which talks about the Palestinian economic reality. Those three reports say a lot about how Israel is blocking the ability for us to create a new economic reality on the ground. You will also find on the right hand side top of that page, e palestine.ps a link to a report that I called CogAT 2022 . And that's a new military order that Israel issued 90 pages of who's allowed into the occupied territory and who's not. You will find it shocking. Uh , at one point the military order said, if a foreigner comes here and falls in love with a Palestinian, that they have to go report that to the Israeli military mind boggling. Uh , it has been since watered down. And in the the new version, it says you only have to report it if you want to renew your visa. So they're getting into our bedrooms, they're getting into our businesses, they're getting into our daily lives. It is a overwhelming occupation that has one place to go, which is more violence. And that's what we're trying to stop where there's an urgency here for other countries, the US in specific to raise their voices and start to hold Israel accountable. And you will find at that blog a lot of resources to educate people because we honestly believe that the more people are educated, the more they will come to their own conclusion that what's happening is wrong. And Israel needs to be held accountable. And if you love Israel, which is fine, this is is the time to hold them accountable because they are driving drunk on power. And friends don't let friends drive drunk on power.

Speaker 2 29:48

Well, thank you Sam, for being with us. And again, we will put a link to Sam's blog on our show notes. And again, Sam, we thank you for all the work that you're doing.

Speaker 3 29:59

Thank you very much, and I hope your readers and listeners will actually link up to me on social media so we can stay in touch. All my links are@theepalestine.ps blog.

Speaker 4 30:09

Awesome .

Speaker 2 30:14

So also join us on the podcast this week is Dr . Neha Corey , who is the advisor to the President on Global Education and Exchange at the Darla Klima University in Bethlehem, Palestine. Welcome to the podcast.

Speaker 5 30:31

Thank you.

Speaker 2 30:33

So, uh, Dr. Corey just, uh, talked to our group about kind of the history of Palestine, and so would you, uh , kind of give us a rundown of that in kind of a , a shorter version, um, and then we can talk about the work that you do here at the university?

Speaker 5 30:50

Yes. Um, the history of Palestine is a very long history. It goes around 3,500 years. Uh , we know from um , writings, uh , hieroglyphic writings, uh , that the land of the palace writings about the land of the police and about battles between the people of the land of the palace and between the Pharaohs Ramy II and the third. And that was around 1,250 bc. And we are, as a people, uh , went through, uh , historic, uh , phases, changes, uh, we changed, uh , in terms of religions, we changed in terms of who are the people of, uh , Palestine, we were occupied several times. Uh , large, uh , nations came and dominated, intermingled mixed, brought their , um , technologies, et cetera , et cetera , et cetera . But we know from history that this land was called the land of the pale pto , paleo . And also at the time of Herodotus , five centuries BC it became palestina. And during the time of Jesus, also it was known as, uh , Palestine. And more or less it is, uh , in terms of borders, more or less similar to what, uh , was the, during the, um, uh , British mandate, although in some extent in some instances or some historic periods, it included, uh , Jordan or areas in Syria including, uh , uh , cities like homes, uh , the Sinai, la et cetera . But towards the, um, in , in the 19th century, 20th century, it took the shape that it took. Um, and in 19 48, 70 8% of the land was declared as the state of Israel. 22% was divided between the Gaza Strip , which was taken over by the Egyptian, uh , authorities. And then the West Bank, including East Jerusalem, came under the Jordanian, uh , rule until 1995 when the National Palestinian Authority came as a result of the Oslo Accords. And now we are under the National Authority, but still under occupation. Even the National Authority is under occupation because we are not in , we are not a state, still not recognized as a state.

Speaker 2 33:30

Well, I think that's very helpful for our listeners to hear and to also hear about the work that this university is doing, which is in the arch , which is something that I am a big proponent of because I am a graphic designer and I am an artist and I'm a singer and a musician and grew up, you know, my parents very much encouraged me to be a creative and I've always been in the co-host of this podcast is also the same. He plays instruments and uh , we all design all of our graphics and stuff. And so it was really awesome to see a university embracing the arts in this community. So I wonder if you can tell us a little bit about why that is and then how might we can get involved in the work here that y'all are doing at the university? Cuz it really is awesome and I wish people could come see it so the listeners should, y'all should come see it.

Speaker 5 34:22

Yes. Um, now Palestine is rich in history, but also it's rich in beauty, it's rich in its people, its heritage and in its art. And the university Da Kma University was founded in order to give a voice and to give, uh , young people who have talents and they are creative and are able to contribute to world heritage, not only to Palestinian heritage and art, but also to be part of the art scene around the world. To give them a forum that would educate them, give them the, uh , right, uh , basis in order to, uh , spring from there. Um, we started with glass and ceramic as well as with film. And because we wanted to tell a story and Palestinians do have a story to tell that not many people, um , heard it or people think that we are just suddenly all of a sudden we, we are on the scene. We have been on the scene for the past 3,500 years. We have been, there has been circumstances that put us away, but now we are back. We have, um , our, our students are , our young people are , uh , talented young people and they are the hope. And in Palestine, uh , uh , sadly, uh , 40% of, uh , the educated college university graduates are unemployed. And the thinking was that we need to create an institution that offers courses in new disciplines that are not in the Palestinian, uh , educational system, but that would ultimately help, uh , these innovative creative people find jobs even while they are sitting, you know, besieged by a wall, for example. They can make films and send these films, uh , via the internet. Uh , they can draw, they can, uh , participate in with the world through their art and through a medium that goes beyond, um , language goes beyond uh , political differences, religious differences, um , et cetera . So therefore was the Dar Alma idea. And we started building it. And we are building it program by program, friend by friend, student by student. And now we have a campus in Bethlehem, the main campus. And we have started a campus in Gaza City and we teach similar things that we are teaching in Bethlehem, but on a smaller scale in Gaza. And the number of students between the two campuses is around 500. And we hope to raise the number, but not more than 1000 because we are an art school and we cannot take as many students as otherwise it would become a factory. And we are not interested in creating a factory of, you know, uh , ready made , uh , art. We want very specialized, unique, uh , innovative programs that would cater to the talented young who are unable also to go to other places. It's too expensive for them to go. Uh , so we need to create opportunities for these young people.

Speaker 2 37:51

Awesome . Well thank you so much for giving us a little bit of your time. And yeah, if y'all want to get involved, we'll make sure to put in some information in our show notes about, um, Dar Lima University and all the work that they're doing. So thank you for being on the podcast with us.

Speaker 5 38:11

You are very welcome. And may I suggest that also they can contact Bright Stars of Bethlehem, which is our sister university, our sister institution that is located in Chicago. So if anybody wants to know more about us, they can go through your podcast and also go through our sister organization in the us .

Speaker 2 38:30

Awesome . Well

Speaker 5 38:31

Thank you .

Speaker 1 38:38

This has been the Matter of Faith Podcast, brought to you by the Presbyterian Peacemaking Program in Unbound. If you would like to submit a question for discussion, you can do so at Faith Podcast at P C O S a.org. We look forward to hearing from you. See you next time. See

Speaker 2 38:55

You next time y'all. Thanks everyone for listening to episode 102 of a Matter of Faith, the Presby podcast and you believe it, continue to subscribe and we really want you to leave us a review. And if you have any questions, send them to faith podcast p usa.org . Also, check on our website a matter of faith podcast.com. There you will find listening guides and the episodes from our Spanish sister podcast, un de And again, please check out the show notes for this episode to be in solidarity with our Palestinian siblings who are under occupation here in Israel. And also again, we love you and we will talk to you again next week.