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WUN4ALL
WUN's mission is to help women to connect with other women, so they can share learnings, build confidence, and develop their own passion for the fast moving utilities space. Through our podcast episodes, we aim to provide our listeners with the skills they need to build long-lasting and fulfilling careers in the sector.
Find us at: thewun.co.uk
WUN4ALL
Ep 75. Worn Out Working Mum AKA Laura talking with Heidi Knapton, South Staffs & Cambridge Water
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In this podcast, WUN advocate Heidi Knapton , South Staffs & Cambridge Water speaks to Laura AKA ‘Worn Out Working Mum’ on all things maternity and work.
Whether you’re navigating your own parenting journey or an employer on a mission to get this right – we are discussing it all!
An authentic discussion around every aspect of ‘the motherhood penalty’ and how best to navigate, with top tips and shared experiences shared along the way”.
Welcome to the Women's Utilities Network One for All podcast. Our corner of the world where we'll be talking all things energy water, sharing personal stories and debating female issues. Enjoy.
Speaker B:So hello to all of our Women's Utilities Network listeners. Welcome to our latest podcast. I am here with the lovely Laura, who is known as Worn Out Working mom. And I'm very starstruck. We've just had to take five minutes to get that off my chest because I've been following her Instagram page for quite a long time. So now we've got that out the way. I'm very happy to be talking to her today about all things maternity journey, whether that's before you go on mat leave, during or after. We're going to cover it all and have a good chat about what best practice looks like. So, just to recap, I'm Heidi Knapton, I'm on the advocate team for the Women's Utilities Network and we aim as a, as a sort of organization to make sure that women in the sector feel supported and that they stay and thrive. We've got loads on our website, so please do check that out. We've got loads of blogs and podcasts of which this is one of them and I'm very excited to be doing this one today. So whether you've just found out you're pregnant, you're on maternity leave, you're thinking of returning, or you've recently returned, or you're an employer who wants to support their women on this journey, which is fantastic. Thanks for joining, we've got you covered. And just to start with a couple of statistics, one that I was looking at this morning, the percentage of women that return to full time work is 31%, which is quite low. And there's loads of reasons for that, personal preference, cost of childcare, etc. But that's quite a low statistic which shows we may not have got this right. So it's been really interesting topic to have. So welcome, Laura, to the podcast.
Speaker A:Thank you so much for feeling me about this. I am so excited to be here. Thank you for inviting me not only to discuss all things working motherhood, but also to connect with a fellow mum and actually talk. Because as I've said to you previously, it's extremely lonely sometimes, especially when you're a working mum, to meet the right people and to find the right networks. So, yeah, I'm really happy to be here.
Speaker B:Yes. And I'm so happy you're here as well. And I guess we, we've had similar journeys in that we are. Well, I've now returned to full time work just for the benefit of our listeners. I think I'm three, four months in now to returning to work with my one year old little boy at home. So that's certainly been a difficult but, but very empowering and rewarding challenge, but a challenge nonetheless. And I guess we can talk through some of our stories as we go through, which would be really, really exciting. But yeah, I totally get it. It's, it's really tough and it can be very. So I'm glad that you're here and we're connecting on all of these topics. So I guess if we start from the start, then when you find out you're pregnant, big news that can be like totally game changing I guess and it's a really difficult one as to when to share with your employer. And just thinking back to my experience, I think I did wait 12 weeks. That was my preference. But equally I felt very comfortable at the time. When I shared it at 12 weeks I had a great reaction from the business. I think I was very lucky. Not all women get that. What would your advice be to women who are finding out they're pregnant? Because it can be really tough, especially with the symptoms that you get. Sort of first trimester feels like there's a stigma that shouldn't be there around this massively.
Speaker A:And I think the other thing is Heidi, and looking at where you are in your career, both of us, I mean me probably more in my second than my first. I mean there's always the joke that at 28, I felt like a teenage pregnancy in London. No one has babies in their 20s in London. So I felt very, very isolated. And when it came to discussing being pregnant at work, I was actually asked by a director if my child was planned, which was a little shocking. That wasn't the announcement that she'd heard that sort of through the grapevine and wanted to know all of the juicy details. And to her dismay, he was planned and we did want a baby. But I think when you're thinking about having children it comes at exactly the same point when your career is usually if you've been working sort of 10, 15 years, 20, it's when your career is starting to really take off, you're more than likely in a more senior role and that's an incredibly vulnerable time to then announce that you are having a baby, which can also feel. I felt like it was me saying, well, next five years are out because that's what I'm going to be doing. Now. And it felt like almost. And I'm not saying this is always the case. And I'm trying to be. I'm in very much an echo chamber when I run worn out working mom. I'm hearing stories every single day of discrimination and women being sidelined. And I also do hear really positive ones. But I was worried that my name would be scrubbed off the board. It's also, I've talked to lots of women that when they're about to announce that they're pregnant, whether it's sort of within a legal timeframe or when they feel comfortable, they're usually up for promotion or they're usually up for a job change. There's salary discussions that are being had, so. And something I'm trying to do on my channel is find the balance of, yeah, this is what you should. Oh, lean in at all the books we've consumed and we've read through our 20s to try and prep us ahead of getting ready for this and feeling like the world had changed. When in reality, what we actually need is advice that is useful and helpful. And I make the joke a lot that sometimes I feel like parents aren't. It's not that they don't want to share, it's just they don't know how to. Because we have to go around things in such a way, strange way. And in corporate world, you could say, well, you know, you write this and you go in and have a plan, have it structured. When in reality, you need to look at what's in front of you. Okay, is there a salary review coming up? Are you comfortable within your workplace? If you're not, don't say it yet. Wait until you've gone through a salary review. And I think that there's. There's sort of this, oh, no, like, why are you saying that? You shouldn't be saying that? Like, for the good of society. You say it now. And like, you come forth and say you're with child. No, like, be really selfish in that time. And I think you naturally start feeling like that when you're pregnant. And then there's this sort of feeling of, well, you shouldn't be. And I use again, I've been talking about this a lot recently. Like, you're lucky to be pregnant. You're lucky to have a job. You should feel grateful that you are. You're in this position. No, if men were having babies and getting pregnant, they wouldn't, and neither should we. So when it comes to announcing pregnancy, I would really suggest that you look at what's in front of you. But if you do feel that there is that support there, I hear some wonderful stories of women who've kind of said, I'm really nervous. I don't know how this is going to be taken. I have to, I'm at a point where I have to, you know, whether there's. Of course, I've come from a very corporate background in terms of any kind of protocol, in terms of safety checks and, and wellness checks and I'm trying to think of the right word. But obviously if you're working construction, construction, for example, you are going to need to tell them earlier than later because you need to make sure. And those are very heavy male dominated industries, nuclear power, for example. There can be sort of that element. But they have amazing reactions and they haven't. They're taken back by how supportive, you know, their managers, their directors and their. Those that are above them can be. So I would say my advice would be be selfish. But it is something that is inevitable and you are going to have to tell them at some point. So whether you feel better about doing that earlier or later is entirely a personal choice to you. If you're going to stay awake every single night worrying about it, rip the band aid off equally. If you've got a promotion coming up and you don't think that now is the right time and it might not work in your favor, don't. If you think that there's support there for you and you want. It's, it's. Yeah, it's, it's. I think it's. Find the balance, be selfish, but also try not to expect the worst. It's not always like that. It can always be surprising and the support can be there. And I think flipping that on its head for employers. I had a terrible reaction. First time was lovely. My, I was, I had an incredible. I talk about her all the time. An incredible manager. I stayed under her leadership for far too long because she was amazing and I did everything I could for her because she was so empowering. Not just as a manager and sort of a career advocate, but having babies. I broke down and I had a terrible time trying to conceive. We didn't suffer with infertility. We had recurrent miscarriage. So I kept losing babies both times. And she was amazing when I told her my news and an incredible support. And because of that I felt, you know, I was having a conversation with someone the other day, you, yes, you become a parent and really you only need, you need your maternity and you need that first year for that the heavy support, and I know that that comes, you know, there's a flexibility, but once you've got a parent and you've supported them, they will be so loyal, they really will. And because you want to show your worth and, and you're, I hate to say it, you're grateful, rightfully or wrongfully. And she was amazing. The worst reaction I had was a swift intake of breath and that there was concern that somebody else in the team was also having a baby. Oh, such and such is also having a baby. It just sets you up from that moment on, knowing that's the route you're going to have to take and it isn't going to be easy. But again, that's a really long answer. I think it's so dependent on who you are, where you are, who you working with, where you are in your career, where you are sort of personally and making those right calls. And I think women have just the most amazing intuition, especially women in the working world. So trusting that and knowing that if you do get those pushbacks, not ignoring the signs, okay, that didn't feel good, or maybe I just caught them on a bad day. That's not how any human should be responding, whether you're at work or telling someone in a coffee shop. So, yeah, if you are someone that is hearing that news, you need to step back for a second from what you're thinking is an issue for you structurally going forward for the next 12 to 24 months, you need to support your employee and your team and know that. You know, I was looking at some stats as well because there's always this argument of, oh, it's, you know, strain on the resource, the company. Why would we want to. It costs a company. I think it was Oxford economics. It's over £30,000 on average to replace an employee. So I think from the get go, if you can be supportive, it just, it really sets the star up for a really positive experience for everybody. Your team, your company and you as a sort of, as an individual that is having the child and working stuff.
Speaker B:That's incredibly relatable. Thank you for sharing that. A lot of that definitely resonates and I'm glad you picked up on the things can go well piece too. And I know I'm very fortunate that I had a brilliant experience in my current workplace with sharing my news. I think I was about 11 or 12 weeks and I shared it and it was a way off my mind because, you know, I'd started to get all the symptoms that we all, you know, Know and love the nausea, the tiredness, everything was sort of hitting me. And actually to know that they knew that this is what I was going through and to have the support to say, you know what, just come in half an hour later, it's not a problem. You know, I was always that person that was in at like half seven, eight o' clock every day, military operation, boom at my desk. So just to know I had a bit of support and flexibility and, and you know, to see it quite normalized. Our executive team are pretty much 50% female, 50% male, which was, you know, good to see the normalization of parents at that level. And male and female. It was very normal in a meeting someone to be like, sorry, I've got to go and I've got to pick my child up from nursery. It felt very normal in the business and so it's a good example of where it's done well. And yeah, it was definitely a way off my mind. So I think I share your advice there around. Intuition is very powerful and actually you probably know you and your workplace best. But yeah, I definitely felt comforted and I guess that leads into the next part of the journey really, which is once you've told them, what does that look like? I had literally stepped into a process promotion pretty much the same time that I'd shared I was pregnant and I did feel supported through that. And actually another top tip I would probably give employers that are listening are to involve the person in the recruitment process for the person that's going to be coming in. I was heavily involved and that gave me a lot of comfort and reassurance because I was able to sort of shape what I wanted the person to do and have a say on who the person was and all that stuff. So I knew my team were going to be looked after. I knew that I'd shared all the stuff that I wanted to be delivered while I was going to be away from the business. And I guess that that gave me some comfort too, as opposed to, gosh, you've shared this news now, you know, just go and do you over there and this is what it'll look like when you get back. It wasn't like that. And that that was really helpful for me, I think. So I think involving people in the journey can be very powerful. And then I guess the time comes, you step away from the business, you have baby, which is very exciting but also incredibly terrifying. And then you're off, which is very strange. And it was really difficult for me, I'll be honest, because I'd always been this really ambitious, career minded person that had structure to their day every day. I had loads of meetings in, I always attended meetings on time. I was quite nerdy like that. And then suddenly I was off with a baby. Never had a baby before, didn't have a routine. Some days I'd felt like I'd done nothing and that was really, really tough. I don't know if your experience was similar because I know that you're equally driven and motivated and structured and all that kind of stuff, but I found that really, really hard. That's something that probably underestimated for women that you know, you live this lifestyle and boom, the next day you've got this bundle of joy in your arms and you couldn't love them anymore. And you, you couldn't be any happier. But at the same time it's really, really tough and that's not something I expected. Do you, do you share any of that experience?
Speaker A:Massively. I don't think anyone is immune to it. In terms of motherhood. You lose who you are and I think there is this, you're not allowed to say it. I mean I know a lot more mums are now and that's amazing. And dads that you lose a very, very big part of you when you have a child. And I don't think I ever really understood the gravity of that. And I remember with my first, he was born late 2018 and I, my, my role has always been, I've always project managers, program management across global companies looking. I love data. I mean who doesn't to sort of be able to say even now when we're having these conversations of course they're very emotionally charged but what's the data saying? When new report comes out I will be in there digging, working out what, what works, what's not working, where are kind of the sort of similarities. And I remember my son had terrible, terrible colic. He actually ended up, it transpired when I had my daughter he had tongue tie and when I had my daughter I knew exactly what to look for. He was about seven months when we worked it out I thought he'd hit his mouth, he had all his blood and I was like oh my gosh, what have you done? And it turned out his tongue had snapped. At that point I'd already, I'd quit breastfeeding. Just, it was just too much and it took its toll and it turn out he was, he was very tongue tied and my daughter had almost full posterior tongue tie as well. And at the time I Was convinced. I'd completely convinced myself that. And I've heard very similar stories that I could, if I could look at the data, and I think one of the big apps had just come out where you can track everything. And I looked back on it when I was pregnant with my daughter and I had to laugh. I was tracking everything when he was eating, when he was pooping, when I was changing his nappy, when he was sleeping, how much he was drinking, his wake window, his moods, because I was absolutely certain that if I could look at the data, I could work out what was going wrong. And these tiny, fleshy bundles, there are no rules. They don't come with a manifesto, they don't come with cool values. They do whatever they want. And that was really, really jarring. And I like structure, I like routine. I'm often asked for listeners. I, unfortunately, after I had my second child, I say, was ejected out of the. Of the corporate world. And I'm asked frequently, do I miss it? And I do. Because with that, of course, in a creative sense, it can be sometimes, depending on where you're working and industry and who you're working for, it can be very suffocating. But you are meeting with great minds, you are talking with people when you become a mum, that you are chopped off from it. And I know we can talk. I'd really love to talk about your experience of staying in touch with work and discussing that and kind of what good looks like. Or again, it's all so dependent on you as an individual. But for me, the first time round was really important to have those conversations. It was scary because I was like, I don't really want to think about that. I don't. I left a different person. And I'm always. I joke that I'm always. I'm very dramatic. But when it comes to having a baby, I think it's the closest you get to death. It is the closest you can possibly get to death. You are not just birthing a new human being into the world, you are being reborn. And it sounds very sort of melodramatic. You are being reborn. You become a completely different person. And when you go back to work, I was very naive thinking that I would go back and be the same person, because you're just not. And I say that in the most positive way. You are, of course, especially in those early, hazy days, you're knackered. You are so knackered. And of course there are negatives. But when you come back, when you're a mum, you become so resourceful I think, yeah, there's a lack of confidence, but if you can find it again, you will find a confidence that you've never experienced before because you've done something, I think that's magic. And that's how I felt anyway. And I was like, there's nothing I can't do playing the corporate game. And, you know, of course we're doing great things and we're doing great work, but at the end of the day is, you know, there is a game to be played. And I was like, well, of course I can do this now. Like, I've just. I just looked after a baby and kept it alive for 12 months. But I'd love to hear your experience of how you stayed in touch through maternity, if that helped. I have my own stories, but I would love, I would love to hear yours.
Speaker B:Yeah, no, happy to share. And like I've said before, I do feel very lucky because work were great with me and I always like to caveat, as you have too, that every woman's experience is different and people might be listening to this and think, gosh, she thinks that's great now. I would hate that. But I wanted to be kept in the loop. I wanted regular updates, I wanted to know what was going on. I actually wanted to be involved and help shape things. And luckily I was able to do that. I did a kit day every month and it was up to me how much I inputted on those days, whether I went in, sat with the team and just had a chat, see where everyone was at, or if I was actually going to shape projects, et cetera. So it was very much less led by me, which I really appreciated because when I left, so left work's not the right phrase. When I stepped away, whatever the right term is when you, when you go on Matt leave. They'd done everything right. I'd have a great send off. I'd had so many presents and cards. I was overwhelmed with the kindness, but I still felt like it was a breakup, this really strange emotion. It does feel like you're losing something.
Speaker A:It doesn't. You're like, you're taking on someone else. Like, this isn't an open relationship. You can't hire. I do that the best. But you said it, you said it then, Heidi, you said, you said you felt lucky and, and. And that you luckily. And this. And again, I do it. I did it. And people do it as well. Women do it. And I, I cannot. We. We must stop. Because of course you are. And there is this element because. But we're made to feel that way. And I know I'm getting a little bit passionate, but we are made to feel that way by society. Your company, they are doing it right. They're doing the right thing. It's not luck. It shouldn't be about, oh, I just fell under this manager. I work. I was lucky because I work for this company. They're doing it right. I have done it, I do it. And I was like, I'm just really lucky. My work is so flexible. I'm just really lucky. I have a great manager. They're doing it right, not wrong. It's not about luck. It should be. That's the wrong way. They were, you know, it was. I wasn't just unfortunate, they did it wrong. It's not on you. It's the same, you know, it's the same way we talk about if you are made redundant or you lose your job or it's your job that's made, you know, redundant, that it's. And as amazing as a company can be or crappy, there's the. The emotion needs to be taken away from it. And we, as, I think, as mums, also need to do that, which I am terrible at. Like, I was so emotionally invested in my company and I think there's a really good balance of being passionate, but, you know, also knowing that this is right, this is. This is the right way to do this wrong. And it sounds like you've had such an empowering experience, which is just amazing. And they did it right.
Speaker B:You know what? That's spot on. That is. That is it. And you know what? You've just made me kind of reflect on my own wording there. And I think what you've said is really valid. And I almost feel guilty for having a good experience because I know so many women don't, which is why I'm like, I'm sat here thinking, oh, blimey, they did get it right. That is so rare that actually, I keep using that terminology when what we should be looking at is shining a light elsewhere to challenge. Like, look, if we could get it right here in this business, you know, here's an example to do. So, yeah, I think that's totally valid. It totally flipped my thinking there, which is amazing. But yeah, yes, to get it right is definitely about how. How often do you hear a woman say, I went on maternity leave and it was brilliant. It's just a really, really difficult one to get right.
Speaker A:50% of women that go back after having a baby as is pregnant with scree's most recent data have a negative experience. That is half. And that's not just me saying, oh, I hear from. That is in the UK, 50% of women returning back to work have a negative experience.
Speaker B:Wow, that's a lot of women.
Speaker A:It's a lot.
Speaker B:And you know what? When I reflect on my experience and what some of the reasons that made it so good, it was the little things that mattered. So, for example, our chief exec would text me or message me on WhatsApp about once a month, actually say, how are you getting on? And I'd share pictures of my son and say, look, he's just done this, he's just smiled, he's just taken his first step. And it was those little things that made me feel loved. So I'd gone through this emotion of like, I'm breaking up with someone, because it felt like I was stepping away from the thing that I'd worked so hard for my entire life. I was stepping away from that. But then having those messages just made such a difference to me because I knew that at the end of my mat leave, I was going back to a place of welcome and want and happy that I was going to be going back and all that kind of stuff. So, yeah, I think that's really fair. And that probably leads on nicely to the returning stage. And I know you've shared some of your experience on your channel too. I'm going to say it again. But my business did get this right too, which was fabulous. And the bit that I get really passionate about is actually maternity leave changes you. Well, in the majority of cases, I think women would say that. And for me, it really changed my perspective and my thinking. I'd worked my entire life, my entire career to get to a certain point, had a child and I was like, wow, this makes me think about what I want to do next. The only thing I can liken it to was in lockdown, when so many people had reflections on their life and what they want out of it and that kind of thing. And I was really. I'm not going to say that phrase again. Business got it right because they sat down with me and said, what do you want? What is it that would make you happy? On returning back to work, because we want you back in the business and together we worked that through and I felt. And I've sort of returned into a role that really suits me. It suits what I wanted in terms of working hours. It gives me excitement and passion because I love the topic that it's on. I've got A great team. So, you know, I'm quite happy as to where I'm at now. But unfortunately not a lot of women, 50% according to that statistic, have that feeling. And I cannot even imagine what that must be like because returning to work in best case scenario was tough and is tough and you need a hard hat and you know, padding because it's really blooming hard and some days it feels impossible. And I've had many meltdowns already in my boss's office. I'm sure he's probably listening to this thinking, yep, yep, I've given you numerous boxes of tissues. It is really hard. And that is when they got it right. So talk to me about your thoughts on that because I know you've shared some other experiences, I guess.
Speaker A:Yes. So personally I, like I say I've had night and day experiences of returning back first was, was brilliant and, and again it was fostered very much by my manager at the time. Really similar experience to you messaging throughout. You know, there was never a pressure to stay in contact. And I think what was very clear is the first time around I did want to, I wanted to see her and I wanted, you know, I wanted to hear what was going on a second time. In the lead up to that I actually dissociated completely. I didn't want any catch up days. And I think, and I spoke about this a lot, looking back retrospectively, I put my head very much in the sand because I felt very powerless. And I was like, if they don't see me, like, you know, maybe, maybe I'll be okay. There was very much my, my gut from the very beginning was like, this doesn't feel right. This feels very wrong. And all that to say as well. This was, you know, I won't, will not be named the company, but I was, I was there for nearly a decade. Wow. Not my whole career, but a very good proportion of it. And it did feel, it felt like family. I was very heavily invested in them. You know, you go through those ebbs and flows and when things start to break down, I mean it did feel like a marriage and I was wrong for me to feel that way. Actually. It's a business, you have a business contract with your employer. And when I returned, it was an absolute mess. So there was no handover, no one had covered my role whilst I was out, which is also a really big warning sign. It had been given to somebody else and delegated within a team, which is, again, yeah, sometimes that's doable. But if, you know, if there's not another role available for that person to move back into. That's a big warning sign. And when I went back, no handover documents, no folders full of stuff, no welcome back, it was extremely scary, especially I was a remote employee. So I wasn't. I wasn't in the office visible because I was. I was working at the time, I was working with a company overseas. And I just.
Speaker B:I.
Speaker A:Again, my gut was saying, this is wrong, this isn't right. And actually, when worn out, working mum really, truly began the birth and origin was I. We'd had a massive restructure and I was really nervous, actually, because the role that was kind of my old role had. Had gained a little bit more in terms of seniority, whilst where I sort of had had a team before, but it was a little bit more informal. There would be more, you know, there would be more reviews with the team and. And I would be very much their direct manager. But I was really excited and I was like, you know what? Like, this is. They see me and they know that, you know, I've been doing this many, many years. It's, you know, the responsibility, whilst terrifying, coming straight back from maternity leave, they trust me with this. So I'd spent the week, like I said, there was no had. I spent the week just trying to catch up with everybody, trying to get as up to speed as possible, as quickly as possible. And I was panicking because I was like, well, this is huge and I don't want to. I don't want to miss anything here. And I remember, oh, God, it makes me cringe, but it's not cringey. It wasn't my fault, actually. And this is how poor the communication truly was. I'd messaged one of my team members that who I would be, who I'd be working with and managing, and just said how excited I would be working with her again and that we would be working closer into a more closer, you know, relationship. And she was like, what? What? Like, I'm gonna be. I'm stepping into my old role. And she was like, no, you're not. And. And she was like, such and such, who'd been covering, basically, my odd row will be doing it. And I was like, I think she's probably just got this wrong. So then I message around and I'm like, just check again. Weird. Funny thing is, I'm not doing that. And what had actually transpired is they had put me back into a role that I'd been doing. I'd been doing it four years Prior to that. But that role I'd been doing before, I'd been doing for six years. So it was a role I'd been doing 10 years ago. And I'd forcibly been asked to leave because I needed to progress and left the team. I didn't want to, to, to, you know, to, to progress and to step into something new. And I'd been walloped straight back there in my mind whether I had or not, because I'd been out and because I'd been away from the business for 12 months and, and I can't go you, obviously, I won't go into too much detail, but I cried the whole week and I. All of the kind of the advice I was looking for, everyone said, well, is your salary changing? No. Why are you complaining? It's less work, it's. You don't have to manage a team, you don't have to go through, you know, different time zones. And I was like, oh, yeah, like maybe you're, like maybe you're right. And there was talk of, you know, acclimating you back into, you know, back into the swing of things. And I didn't listen to my gut and I say this all the time and just to know as well in the uk, if you don't, if you come back or even if you're sort of, you're a parent and you are working and you feel like something has gone wrong, especially if you come back up after maternity leave legally, if you don't say anything within three months of that change, it is a legal change, but they do have to change it on your contract too. So there has to be some kind of sort of mitigating scenario where they change it for you rather than it just being a conversation. And I cried for a week because everyone was just like, well, like it's a no brainer. But I wasn't happy and I'd lost something significant to me and I say all the time I'm worn out working mom. There's a difference between. And I think as women we don't want to rock the boat, we don't want to put targets on our backs because that is how it feels. And we do have to. I mean, like I say, I don't want to use the word lucky, but if a company's doing it right, you don't feel like that. If they're doing it wrong, which there are a lot of them that exist, you're going to feel that way. There is a balance because sometimes the target is, and I'm not talking personally Sometimes the target's already there and that's when you need to make the change and you need to very quickly become very selfish. Again, be really loud and again, I say it all the time and make yourself so incredibly hard to swallow because they are probably going to swallow you up. Corporations are, they're not emotional, they are, you know, the ones that get it right are not, you know, it's a different way and people are seen for who they are and there's, you know, inclusivity. When I was looking at stats again, it's like, well, why, you know, why is where you work so passionate about that? And I, again, I'm going to try, I'm going to look at my. I wrote this set down 72% job seekers. And I know, I know it's an employer's market out there at the moment, but it won't always be that way. We do need to hire Gen Z, don't. They don't really seem to care. And this is from Glassdoor about your salary or benefits you own. They are employee led, they are culture led and mums are a huge part of that. And if, yeah, if we're being driven out and we are being sidelined, it will be happening elsewhere. And women do become mums. That is what happens for most, you know, that's not to say that anybody else's decision is any less. And this doesn't happen to women at work. But that was my experience of coming back and it wasn't good and I wish I had and I say so this is why I started like, I think I did a video. It doesn't exist anymore because I was so embarrassed. I remember that's when it happened. I was like, I'm filming my face and I did a series of what not to do when you return back to work because it stunned me and I didn't know what to do. And I think again, and I'm not saying that's always going to lead to redundancy or job loss or being, you know, worked out, but there is a level of, even if that, something like that happens and you stay a company that is a huge hit to your career financially and in terms of your career trajectory, you know, even if you look at mine, I was set back 10 years. You have to speak up, it is on you. Unfortunately, there isn't a lot around. There's a lot of amazing companies, working families, pregnant and screw. I can think of a lot more and I'm very happy to provide any resources that we can add to the page and the podcast do amazing things, but it is on you as an employee if you want to take action. But don't let that scare you. There's a lot you can do before it gets to where you've got to pay for a solicitor or if you say there's an issue, if down the line something bigger happens, it's in stone and make sure it's written down. Again, very negative, but I think it's really important to say because it does happen. And I personally didn't feel like I was loud enough. So if I can help somebody find their voice and feel. If we hear today someone's listening and thinking, actually that's not right, that's wrong, metaphorically hold their hands through it. I, I've, I heard someone say the other day, my friend said, a mum's mum. Like, I'm not a, you know, I'm not a girl's girl. I'm like, I'm a mum's mum. And I've. I've never felt that more deeply. It sounds really cringe, but that's honestly in just the injustice. It does fire you. And once you realize it's there, it's really hard to unsee it. So, yeah, that's probably, that's probably. That's too fiery, Heidi. You can. Very fluffy.
Speaker B:No, I love that it's so valid. It's so valid. I'm just sat here trying to understand how you must have felt during that time because it's hard going back to work and I've gone back on great terms and with all the getting it right, but it's still been tough because being a mom and being career person as well is hard. And actually your content helped me quite a lot because, you know, you talk then about make sure you're being loud and speaking up and that's really key and really valid. And it's something that I've. I've navigated and, and was fortunately, fortunately they got it right, but they received it well. But equally, the message I'd like to give listeners is that if you are on mat leave, it's okay to really reflect on and think about what you want to do next too. We often talk about and you've spoken about it so valid and it's so important that we shout up to come back to the roles that we were in previously. But it's also okay if you've reflected and want to do something a bit different, whether that's a side step aside, down, whatever. And that's something I really struggled with in my Mind because I kind of wanted to come back to a different role that I knew the business was looking at. And I had to have some really open conversations to say, look, I've reflected and this. This is what feels right for me. And that was supported. And I've come back in the best place that I can, albeit it still. It's still hard. But I think as women, we are sometimes molded throughout our school days, career, university, whatever, to want to get to the next step and want to progress, and you must do this, you must do that. Having a child made me realize that actually there's more to life and I need to experience those other parts of life because I've had my head down at a desk from the age of like, 12, when I've been working, whatever that's for whatever stage of life I was in, I've always needed to achieve the best. And that puts so much pressure on you. I think when you're a mom, it gives you that fresh perspective that I needed. Like, it saved me in a way because I was burning out. And my employer also recognized that and was part of that open, comfortable conversation to say, what is it that you want? But. And I did. And some of my friends that I'm really close to knew that I was battling this in my head and would send me some great LinkedIn posts that were like, this is okay if you want to take a sidestep. It's okay if you want to have a different role for a time. Doesn't take away from the fact that you're great at your job, that you add so much to your company, et cetera. And I'm in a great place with it now, and I know I've done the right thing, but I think that's an important message for women because there wasn't a lot of content on that. If I'm honest across the web or.
Speaker A:Whatever, no one says it's okay to. To go back and take a step back, and that's okay too. Or it's okay to. And I, I said, I mean, it's funny because when I went back, I. I sort of had this, a different angle. And I was like, you know, this. And I did. I was like, this would be, you know, this is good. This, you know, this helps me a little bit. And it would have been for six months or so, you know, that would have been very supportive. It wasn't the case. But you are absolutely correct. And I have. I say a lot is go back, but don't. One of my pieces of advice is don't go for the next thing, especially if you don't feel ready. If you do, that's great. But if someone's offering you a higher workload and you know you don't take it when you've just returned to mat leave, you're going to burn out. Something else I say is when you go back, I know you're not meant to say this, I. And obviously my circumstances were different. You might not feel like you care about work like you used to. You don't care anymore. Listen to it. Because there might be an element of, okay, just you're not getting a lot of sleep right now. Just get back into it, get back into something, get your feet warm again, then reassess because there is something there. And when you are, you become a parent through however means that your life becomes greater than you. And if you are not happy going away and working for eight hours of the day or four hours, if you're part time, whatever amount of time away from your child also I'll say it's okay to enjoy not being with them and being at work too. But if you want the balance, it has to be worth it. Whether it's financially and that, you know, that puts you in a comfortable position that you can do the things you want to do or you're getting to something or you're. Again, I say you're looking for an ex maternity lead and that, that will give, you know, that's enough to sort of feed you for the next few years or there's a role that you really want to go to and you can see that. Plan it out again. It's. There's this kind of very corporate way of seeing things of this is what you could do or you stay here. But actually you have to be very creative as a working mum and think, okay, well I'll do this for a bit. You ha. You there isn't. It is individual and it is okay to say right now, I don't want that. And we're not taught that. We're taught the kind of. That very corporate structured approach and it doesn't work. You have to, you have to be more forgiving of yourself and others as well and other mums. And no one, yeah, no one tells you how to do it. No one tells you how you're going to feel. You don't know how you're going to feel and that's okay. And if you don't have it worked out right now, that's also okay. If you want to not continue forward and Have a career break that is also okay. My, my one piece of advice for that or any working mum going back and it, I know it makes everyone. And what you'll do is. It's just perfect. It's just perfect because you are combining something that you're obviously very clearly very passionate about with your working world. And I hate to say it because it makes me cringe. It is your personal brand because you become very powerful and it also gives you, it gives you the power at work if you're having those conversations, you know, for example, exactly what you're doing. It puts you heads and shoulders above the rest. It put shines a spotlight on you, but it also opens doors to other things, other avenues potentially that you might want to explore that aren't just. And I'm not saying that you change careers or you jump out, you know, within those first 12 months would be crazy, but just all you need to do again, I don't know the stats, I have to look them up, but no one posts on LinkedIn. It's all AI dribble or you get the same people. And it is embarrassing. I know it feels embarrassing and it feels cringe. I talk about the cringe mountain all the time. Climate, climate. Because only 1% of your workforce are going to be within, are going to be posting about what you want to post about. Become the expert, become the go to person outside of, outside of work. You become very, very valuable if you, if you give yourself your own spotlight and it is totally, totally doable.
Speaker B:Yeah, I totally agree with that. And the bit that I'd probably add is at the end of my mat leave when you, when I was starting to think about returning, I'd had to do quite a lot of reflection on what, when I talk about what role I sort of wanted to come back to, like the reasons why. Also because I think my confidence took a big knock at the end of mat leave. You know, you'd have this. I think I'd had 12, 13 months off in the end. And actually part of me was like, I'm going to come back to you my previous role, because I'm going to prove that I can do this. I'm going to show that I can do this. And I remember I did this slide pack on one of my kit days that I'd put some work into. I was like, I'm going to take the slide packet and show everybody that like I'm going to hit the ground running. It's going to be great. And my chief executive was like, Heidi, you Don't need to prove yourself. You don't need to do that. You know, just be you because you are X, Y, Z, great. And this is what you add to the business. And it just made me go, yeah, I was coming back to a role for the wrong reasons, which is why she really helped me to reflect on what I did want. And I think that's just a Watch out is that, you know, when you have been out of a business for X months, whether that be 1, 2, 10, 12, you can feel that need to prove yourself and you don't have to do that. You know, your employer should value the skills that you have and what you bring to the table and they will know that already. And that just took me a bit of time to sort of get my head round. I mean, I was really supported through that. But it's just one of my reflections that I look back on. I think, why was I doing a PowerPoint on my day off? I didn't need to do that. That was just completely pointless and utterly ridiculous.
Speaker A:It's just having someone say that as well, like you.
Speaker B:Yeah, it helped and it's, It's.
Speaker A:But we, we do. You do need that. You need the support. And if you don't have it, I would say, I mean, fortunately you did. And that's incredible. What, what an amazing colleague. What I will say is, and again, something I say a lot on the channel is try and find a mentor. They don't have to know they're your mentor, but a working parent within your corporation that you can. It doesn't matter if. If their kids are a little bit older, they don't have to be in the thick of it at the same time as you, but they will be. They'll speak your language and they will. Ideally, you know, it's. You find someone that's kind of on the same wavelength as you, but they will just sort of have that reinforcement of, you don't need to do that, or I did that, that didn't know, or I remember. They'll also know if it's someone within your corporation. It's a bit better if it's. If you can't find that someone that's sort of outsourced and don't be afraid to do it. Mentorship and asking for it, I know, again, is something that makes my tummy feel weird, but what an honor. That looks amazing on their CV too. You know, like, it's. We need to stop being so scared to ask for things because we are afraid of taking something away from somebody. Else that go and ask for it. Ask for the mentorship, even if it's in an informal capacity just to. Just to help, you know, oh, don't. You know, you don't need to put that. Put your kit through day. On this day. If you can do it before you go off, incredible. If not, it's. I think it is sometimes a little easier when you come back, a lot changes and not a lot changes in the time you can be off. And I know in the uk we're very fortunate. Again, I'm saying fortunate, not lucky, because how it should be. But we, you know, we. We have the option. Some women have the option to have sign up the full year off. Again. I know finances and things take play and who you're working for, but a lot can change and nothing does change within the working world. But find someone that can support you when you go back. And like I say, it's what I really, really yearned for and it's what I hope I tried very, very hard to do online just to connect women to each other so that they don't.
Speaker B:Your Instagram page is a mentor, and it definitely was for me. I remember watching your videos and there's one. It might be one of your pin.
Speaker A:I thought you said mentor. And I was like, yeah, like, it actually is mental.
Speaker B:I mean, mom life is mental, but no, mentor you, you were brilliant for that. And I think there's one of your videos. It might be a pinned one, actually, because I do watch it a lot. And it's like, if you're going back to work, like, it was like your top tips and you're like, don't be fooled and extra responsibility because not your season. Like your kids are gonna get your season right now. This is gonna happen. And I remember watching it being like.
Speaker A:Oh, no, it's gonna be fine.
Speaker B:And then I watched it back last week. I was like, yeah, you're right. Because, yeah, I'm sure my son knows when I've got to go to board meetings. He'll be ill the night before or he just won't sleep. And there's all this stuff that you'd pointed out that was actually spot on. So even if you're listening to this and you're maybe a bit nervous about getting a mentor or you're on Matt leave and you don't want that formalization, I can assure you that the worn out working One page has all the tips you need. It has literally got me.
Speaker A:Come here. It will give you whiplash because I, like, on one day I will be talking about my cat on the next. You know, we'll be talking about the motherhood penalty. Like, it's. It's not. It's certainly. I'm like, oh, it's a channel. Like, it's a working mum. And then I just. I am a bit bored of that. I think I'm just gonna post about clothes today.
Speaker B:I love it. It's variation. It's brilliant. But I think it has helped a lot of us out there. So thank you for that from all of us, because it's. It's made a big difference and I'm sure our listeners will have a gander as well. But thank you so much for this. This has been hugely insightful and part of me has forgot that we're doing a podcast. It just feels like we're having a lovely discussion about experiences, so that's amazing.
Speaker A:It's. Thank you. It was very nice to connect to a fellow working mum.
Speaker B:It's brilliant. And. And for our listeners, you can follow Worn Out Working mom on Instagram. And this podcast will also be on the Women Utilities Network website. So please do check that out where there's plenty more blogs and podcasts us to follow too. So we hope you enjoyed it and thank you, everyone.
Speaker A:Thank you.