Ep. 76 #WUNCareerStories - Sal Watson, Water Utilities Development Manager, Mott McDonald talking with Julia Stichling, WUN Advocate

In this WUN Podcast episode, Julia Stichling speaks with Sal Watson from Mott MacDonald about her journey from geology student to industry leader. Sal reflects on her academic and consultancy experience, including major projects like the London 2012 Olympics, and her current role shaping strategy at Mott MacDonald and as a non-executive director at British Water.

Sal reflected on developing her leadership skills during part-time working years, drawing on experience as a school governor and committing to continual learning. 

Looking ahead, Sal and Julia discussed long-term planning in the water industry, the pressures of increased investment demands, the need for industrialised project delivery, and building public trust amid climate concerns. In the podcast they touch on the urgency of addressing the sector’s talent pipeline and increasing public awareness of water systems.

Transcript

Speaker A: 0:03

Welcome to the Women's Utilities Network One for All podcast. Our corner of the world where we'll be talking all things energy water, sharing personal stories and debating female issues. Enjoy.

Speaker B: 0:20

Hello and welcome to another episode of the Women's Utility Network podcast. My name is Julia Stichling and I'm one of the advocates here at THE One. I'm really excited to be joined for today's podcast recording by Sal Watson, Water Utilities Development manager at Mott MacDonald. Welcome, Sal. Hello.

Speaker A: 0:39

Thank you for having me.

Speaker B: 0:40

Super excited to speak to you today and to hear a bit more about your story and your journey through the water industry. That would lead us directly to the first question I'd like to start off with you, just giving me a bit of an overview on what's your journey through the water industry, your career journey of 20 plus years of experience, and what are the different kind of roles and experiences you've made alongside this journey?

Speaker A: 1:05

Okay. Right, where to begin? I suppose, I mean, I could begin really at the beginning. So literally as a child I loved playing with mud. So I was very down the garden, mixing up water, playing with mud. And I also had a friend at that time whose mum was an amateur geologist and she would take us out digging around the chalk pits and quarries around Reading where I lived at the time, aged about six. So I had a very early love of geology. So that took me through school and university. I did a geology degree and then I went off to the University of Birmingham and did a master's degree in hydrogeology. And I think at that time I was particularly interested in probably the kind of human, human health side of things and how important and fundamental water supply is for people. So that was. That was kind of my thinking. But I guess it also then evolved into much more thinking about as well, the environmental balance of things. So after I'd finished my master's, I spent a bit of time working on a groundwater model at the university, actually as a research associate. And that was sort of project that the university was completing for Anglian Water. So I did that and then I got my first job in consultancy and again, that was another groundwater modeling project actually in Oman, looking at artificial recharge and whether that was going to be a feasible thing. After a couple of years of that, I moved to a company called Southern Water Global. So I was indirectly working for Southern Water, but based in Ireland. And I think at that stage I had started to panic a bit in my career, which is hysterical when you look back at it. You know, I was probably two years in and panicking a bit. But all I'd done really were groundwater modeling projects and I hadn't got any field experience. So I then went to the other extreme and was working on this project on the west coast of Ireland looking at groundwater flooding and managing two years worth of field based drilling and monitoring. And then I was I guess in a conversation with somebody who said, you know, as a woman in this industry you're just going to have to do more than anybody else. You need to be, you know, have something that's distinctive that really, you know, kind of underpins what you're doing. And a PhD would just be really helpful to, you know, just sort of, yeah, I guess to, to add an extra level of something. And I'd always been interested in doing a Ph.D. so I thought okay, well you know, I've been working for about seven years, maybe that's quite good sort of thing to go and do. So I got a job at University College London doing a PhD part time. So I was working as a research fellow and doing my PhD part time and that was looking actually at an area within southern waters catchment region, looking at detailed chalk hydrogeology and using large scale pollution to compare to very small scale tracer testing. One of the things I'd really struggled with when I was working in Ireland had been all these people coming together to do a project and just how their voices were present and feeding into things and how the people who lived within the area, we were studying how their voices were heard. And so I became very interested in facilitation and facilitated events and how you bring in that sort of collaborative approach to developing a way forward. So I did facilitation training and facilitated on development programmes at ucl. Whilst I was working as a research fellow I also got involved and did some political lobbying looking at water policy and changes. Actually at the time we were lobbying around water demand, white goods labeling. I mean it sounds really bizarre but the effort you have to put in to just get things labelled, washing machines and dishwashers labeled with the amount of water they used. And I remember having dinner, dinner at the, in the dining rooms under the House of Commons with the Minister at the time, which was Michael Meecher and a whole coalition of people from Water uk, the Environment Agency, rspb, you know, lots of bodies interested in water, trying to get these things changed. So it was interesting just to sort of realize how and understand how these things work, how you, how do you change things? So once I'd nearly finished my PhD, we'd run out of money at that point for the project, I went back into consultancy, went and worked for Atkinson, finished my PhD part time, which just as I was about to finish my final printout, I went into labour with my first child, so. So we had to unpack the car and go to the hospital rather than going to print out the PhD, so. So I eventually got that printed six weeks in. But turns out a push chair is quite handy for carrying a large document to print things out and then wheel it round to the binders to be found. So that was my PhD done and dusted and then, yeah, I worked at consultancy again. So all still really technical, I would say. Very, you know, that was definitely the focus of what I was delivering there. Some fantastic projects. I worked on the London 2012 Olympics. I had the responsibility for the water quality modeling, monitoring during construction, which was a really interesting experience and probably my first experience of being on a major infrastructure site, you know, major construction site. Really incredible. So, yeah, I did that for a while and then I think I had a bit of a. I was a bit stuck sort of thinking, what's my next opportunity? I'm pretty senior, you know, as a principal level, well known for sort of being, you know, sort of coming to a project, problem solving, moving on to the next thing, problem solving again. I hadn't really got an opportunity to run a team, a big team, and I was working part time still because I'd had another child by that point. So I was doing three days a week and it was quite hard. It was way before we had teams, so I could. I was working in a hybrid way, but before we were really set up to be hybrid. And that's tough, you know, dialing into meetings where you're not. You're the only person not in the room and the, you know, speaker doesn't work, really. The mic doesn't work. You can't really hear what's going on. And because of. I was just becoming invisible in the business, frankly, because of how I was having to try and work across days and a long commute and manage childcare and all that kind of stuff. It was not great and the opportunities for me weren't really there. So I was really lucky and successfully got recruited and joined the Mott Macdonald. So I knew them, knew of the business and obviously that they were, you know, incredibly well respected. They've always had this sort of team of, or group of very highly regarded experts in, particularly in hydrogeology. Then fairly quickly I moved to managing the sort of water resources team and sort of grew from there, really. The opportunities have just like kept coming along. It's been incredible to go from, yeah, sort of managing that water resources team and then we've got practices for different technical areas. So then I became a global practice lead for water resources, so that, you know, sort of expanded horizons. Still very much working for water companies and that was the focus, but doing a couple of international projects as well. And then I took on a technical excellence and digital lead for the business unit that I sit in now, Water and environment. So that's about 1200 people. And it's really sort of focusing on, you know, excellence is absolutely the heart of what we deliver. How do we just continuously improve, how do we keep ourselves alive to the future needs? And that's across everything that we do in the unit. So I'm not. I'm no longer just in water resources. I'm very much more in the space of water engineering, water resources, environment, process, dams and reservoirs, you know, all of that capability that provides services to our clients. So I did that for a few years and that was for me, the really big shift into very much business leadership. And then my latest incarnational role that I've got now, which is how you introduced me to start with, is the water utilities division development manager. And for me, that's very much. I've always been very client focused. I've worked in clients that we have. I understand, you know, their challenges and their needs. So for me, I'm very much now taking that technical interest, technical improvement, making sure that is completely focused on our clients and taking that through to how we win new work, how we talk to our clients, how we meet their needs and continuously provide the excellent service that they need and expect and we hold ourselves to account over as well.

Speaker B: 10:09

Thank you so much. I love hearing how you've started kind of as a kid playing in wood and enjoying water and then having that connection, because that's something. Whenever I speak to people in the water industry. So I love hearing how people come into the industry. It's never an easy story. It's always a bit of a complicated, windy road. And I love the fact that your story kind of starts with that early influence of. You had someone in your life who kind of worked in geology and kind of brought you in there, because I think it's the influence that we see that then helps us to think of what could we do in the future ourselves. And maybe without that influence, you would have gone a completely different, different way. Probably still a very interesting career, but it might not have Turned out to be exactly this focus on water like it is now.

Speaker A: 11:00

Yeah, possibly. I mean, you know, we'll never know, will we? But I've definitely always been somebody who liked being outside in the field. So that was an important thing. And aside from the sort of technical aspects, there is so much in geology that speaks to what I enjoy as an individual. You know, it's very sociable, it's a great way to sort of. I like spending extended time with people that I'm with. I've never been a right. I do work and leave sort of person. It's something that's. It's very intrinsic. I mean, all those other things that I can talk about, I don't leave things behind when I go out of the office. At the end of the day, it's. It's just something that I'm completely driven by. That combination of water, environment, making things better. But also, actually the other, the other side of it is the learning and the fact that you're, you know, you're always able to. There's something new, there's something else coming through. Okay, what can I take from here to bring over here to make it better, you know, to improve.

Speaker B: 12:07

That's the important bit. Because we, you know, we choose careers because they have to somehow excite us and motivate us completely.

Speaker A: 12:15

We used to. I used to go into the office with actually a colleague I spent an awful long time working alongside in the early part of my career. And. But one of the things, he used to turn up in the mornings and he'd say, another day of exciting day of science and adventure. And it's sort of. Okay. It was a bit tongue in cheek, but, you know, I've worked with colleagues, actually. One who retired last year, I think, and he just said, you know, it's just really interesting and I just find it really fascinating. And I think if you've got something like that, that is just going to sustain you for a long time.

Speaker B: 12:46

No, I agree. I mean, for me it's 10 years in the water industry this year and I have no idea where the time's gone because it's interesting and I, I can see it being interesting in the future with all the challenges and all the things that are coming up. So, yeah, totally agree. I think what I'm also interested to understand is because you come obviously from a technical background, you set yourself, you've been involved in mostly technical roles for the first part of your career. How did you make that change into managing people and what were maybe also the challenges around that you mentioned you did a, you know, a lot of facilitating and kind of trainings around that as well. Because I think it's often the question for people, for women especially in their careers, how can they make that step up into actually then managing and leading teams? What are kind of the abilities and the skills that you then need on top of maybe your technical expertise that you have.

Speaker A: 13:47

It's interesting because when I moved to managing a larger team I had spent a lot of time working part time and I'd felt, and remotely and I'd felt it was going to be really difficult to manage a team. So I really hadn't had a lot of people reporting to me in a line management capacity. But I'd obviously always had projects that I'd been running and the London 2012, the Surface Water quality monitoring, there must have been about 10 or 15 people in that project who were reporting into me and I took the view that well okay, it's an additional step to manage people from a resource or line management point of view, but there's an awful lot of overlap there. So I've always looked for where's the relevance that I can then bring across and say, well it's not exactly the same but I think it's good enough. And the most important thing is that you can show how you've drawn out your learning. The other thing I did, which I would really recommend to people is when I was working part time and when my kids were young and just got to primary school was I became a school governor and it was really valuable to have because you could do it in the evenings because you were. So my partner was back from work so there wasn't a childcare issue. Most of the evening meetings started at sort of 6 or 6:30 or something so I could go along to those. In addition, there were conferences at weekends that the local authority ran and also training courses. So there were training courses on how to chair a meeting, what good governance looks like, all those kinds of things which you know and line management, I, I mean I went through a headteacher recruitment process. You are really well supported by the local authority school clerks as they were. I, I guess they still have them like that who can advise you on what you should be doing but ultimately you're learning how to operate as a governing body and that is really important when it comes to managing a business or thinking about all the different aspects that you have responsibility for when it comes to managing a business. And. And so I took an awful lot from that to be honest and have always, yeah, I viewed it as really, really beneficial, particularly the training that you could just get for free whilst you were on maternity leave or, you know, whatever. It was really valuable.

Speaker B: 16:06

It's combining your interests with what you want to do, isn't it? Because by doing something that you're interested in, you then kind of were able to access the training and get that outside of your job knowledge and kind of education in a way. And that was then something you could apply into your day to day job to then get to that step up of becoming a manager of a bigger team. Not just because you're already managing projects, but that transition from managing a project to managing people actually.

Speaker A: 16:38

Yeah, absolutely. I've never expected to have anything handed to me on a plate. You know, I will go out and seek it out and say, okay, what, what do I need to be? What is, what does this person look like? Or you know, find people who are doing what I think I might want to do and figure out what it is, you know, what are their priorities, how do they focus? What are they, yeah, what are they taking away from it? What's, what are the shifts they've had to make? And it is, I think if you've been in a very technical role, it can be really hard to let that go, particularly in consultancy. I think if you are not fee earning you do feel vulnerable, like your value is only as good as the value you're adding across the whole of the business. And you sort of, I don't know, I'm very kind of aware of that. It's not for everybody but I, you know, I really enjoy it.

Speaker B: 17:28

That's great. And you are also a non executive director for British Water. How does that role look? What is your kind of remit in that role? What does a non executive role look like for our listeners?

Speaker A: 17:42

So yeah, I am, I started that in July last year. British Water, for those who don't know, it is a water industry supply chain membership body. So it represents water and wastewater supply chain. Very kind of constructive and solutions focused organization, really collaborative. Lilla who runs it is incredible CEO, really focused on making a difference and I think that's bringing people together to solve problems. A lot of the things I've just talked about are how I like to approach things. So it's a very good fit for me in terms of wanting to be part of an organization like that. Definitely, you know, we go further together. I think that's, that's a really important thing being on a, a board as a non exec director, I'M not remunerated for it, so I'm doing this. Mott MacDonald gives me some time to do it, but it's also in my own time as well. And it's providing that scrutiny of what's happening in the organization sign off. You're, you know, taking responsibility for the organization operating properly and over overseeing that, but then also developing the strategy, working through what. What does the organization need to do to continue to deliver for its members? What are our members asking for? So we're running. There's a survey open at the moment on the UK water and wastewater companies. The supply chain gets to have its say every year. So anybody who can do that, do fill it in. I think it's the 11th of July, it closes. Water companies listen, they look at that and they want to know why they're moving up and down those ratings. And I think it's a really important conversation to be having at the moment with everything that we've got to deliver across the industry or needs to be delivered. Yeah, so I mean the original question was around what's the role as a non exec director? Is that sort of scrutiny, oversight, support ideas, strategizing, signing off the whole governance piece, whether it's the finance or whatever, plans for the year and yeah, making sure that we're reflecting what the supply chain needs.

Speaker B: 19:49

And when we met for the first time at the international reception of British Water, we were actually talking about the kind of future outlook for water. And you gave me a bit of an insight about how obviously working in the water industry myself, I know that we think in the amp period and we think a couple of years ahead, but in your role you're actually thinking 50 or 100 years ahead or trying to kind of see what's happening in the future. What do you think are kind of the key factors that will influence and shape the future of our industry?

Speaker A: 20:21

I think, yeah. So the regional plans that I've worked on, so Water Resources East, Water Resources Southeast, we're planning to sort of 20, 100, those are the very long term sort of look aheads because we're trying to factor in the impact of climate change and understand what that will mean for supply, development, demand management and how, you know, how we're going to, how we're going to plan for that, to make sure that we're resilient against it. So that's the very long term thinking. So I mean the more short term sort of challenges I think are going to be around, well, particularly what we've got now, which is having Seen a step change in the amount of investment that's been agreed is actually delivering that in the time that we've got available. Because, you know, you've almost effectively got double the investment in the same period to deliver. So you've got to change your mindset really. We've become on the whole very attached to quite bespoke approaches. We need to kind of basically industrialise the process that we go through to deliver projects, I think, and be much more standardised and think about, obviously, you know, you're not delivering exactly the same thing for everybody because we know every water company's region looks really different. You know, that's been recognized. Actually. I was just looking at the interim report from the Independent Water Commission this morning, you know, recognizing that regional difference, but there is still a degree of standardization that you can adopt that. I think the other thing that we have talked about at the British Water Conference a couple of years ago is all this investment in water to improve the environment. There's still all the agriculture and highways runoff. So water quality from these other sectors, which we have no control over, is still going to be having a massive impact. And for the public that's a really difficult thing to think about. The other thing that I think is going to be really difficult just going back to that very long term climate change type view. The planning that we've done to date really has been very focused on water quantity, whether that's too much or too little. The kind of elephant in the room, I suppose is water quality. And obviously climate change has a massive impact on water quality and it's very, very hard to, or it has been very hard to develop the models or do the modeling to accommodate. Accommodate quality related changes. Just computationally it's very demanding and my concern is like things are improving, obviously, computationally we're improving all the time. When you start to try and bring that in, the concern is that the problem gets even bigger because you suddenly realize that, yes, we've got this right volume of water, but it's the wrong quality. So actually we're going to need even more from somewhere else to get the quality improvements. So that is, yeah, a conversation. I think we're not quite there yet.

Speaker B: 23:15

I think it requires us to have continuously a conversation about the topic. And I agree with also the public view because it's not just how the water industry or the water sector is perceived, but it's also, obviously with all these challenges coming up, we need talent in the sector and to attract that talent it needs to be worthwhile and People need to understand that they can actually contribute and make things better. And there is more to just the PR side of the water industry because, you know, you and me working in the industry, we know it, but I don't think that the general public has a good understanding of what actually goes on behind the doors and also what's actually required to bring water into a house or into a business. So for me that's, you know, that's an added challenge as well that I see probably for the next coming years when it comes to actually attracting the right talent into the industry.

Speaker A: 24:14

Yeah, I completely agree. I mean, you know, the industry challenge of workforce retiring is, you know, has been talked about for a very long time. We can bring people in and we've got amazing apprentices and graduates that are coming in. Absolutely incredible. But with the best will in the world, they are not going to be delivering really complex problems for another 10 years probably. You know, they've got to build up their experience and there's going to be a really big change because of the retirement sort of demographic that we're, we're going to see. And you know, where we struggle or I see is, is particularly, you know, we bring in a very balanced cohort at graduate apprentice level from a male, female point of view. But we'd see, you know, hollowing out people struggle to stay balance sort of family life and work life or for whatever reason we see women disappearing sort of in that mid career, you know, there's loads of opportunities and there's lots of things that we can do and are doing. But I, yeah, I that the piece around attracting people into, you know, what I think is a fantastic industry or sector or however you want to describe it with, you know, a place to make an incredible difference now and in the future for society, for nature. You know, what's more fundamental than water that's it's absolutely there at the top of the list and yeah, and at the moment it's got this terrible reputation and it is really complex for people to understand. Years and years ago I met somebody who, she's Canadian, she was an artist, but involved in a project in Canada where they were painting little fish by the drains. So wherever you had a gully and a drain leading into, so they were painting fish to get people to connect that that was where it was going. I think we probably need a similar, should be a standard road marking or something.

Speaker B: 26:11

And I think that leads back to the piece around educating the general public where it's about kind of getting a better understanding where does the water come from? And then where does it go after it's been through a household or through a company, depending on where it's being used. But yeah, I fully agree. I think there needs to be a better understanding. I mean, when I joined the industry, I remember in my first ever inter, they asked me, what do you know about the water industry? And I said because in Europe they have above ground hydrants compared to the uk. I said, oh yeah, I know that there's hydrants and I know what they're used for, but that was basically it. And ever since, obviously I'm not in a super technical role as you are, but I've had a much better understanding of what it takes to actually work in the water industry. So yeah, I understand that there needs to be more education around the water industry and how it actually works.

Speaker A: 27:06

Yeah. And I, I mean, you know, water companies, they do fantastic jobs of, they have teams going out into schools and engaging and kids are super interested and you know, I've been when my kids were little, they're very grown up now but you know, going into their primary school and talking about what I did, you know, they were super interested and even starting out saying I was amazed, saying I'm a hydrogeologist to start with and you know, they were able to sort of pick apart the word and you know, sort of say, oh, that's Greek, isn't it, Hydra. You know, but they'd all be doing the Greek myths so they'd, you know, they sort of were making those connections and you know, they're, they're super engaged. You just have to maintain that 100%.

Speaker B: 27:45

So what is your kind of one piece of advice for especially women that want to aim to build their career in the water industry? Where do you think or what do you think they need to hear to go, yes, that's kind of my sector, that's where I want to be.

Speaker A: 28:04

I mean it's not just women but, you know, sort of pointing at anybody I suppose is, I mean, I do think it's the most amazing opportunity where we are now, you know, the amount of investment and the sort of strategic resource options that are being developed. We've just got so many career defining projects that are starting to roll through and be developed and, and you know, they're projects that will absolutely make a difference to future generations, to both people, society. You know, a lot of, a lot of the solutions that are going to be developed really are about rebalancing water for nature so that more water remains in the natural Environment to support whether it's, you know, flora or fauna in low water, in stress water times, you know, it is really fundamental. You are really making, having that impact and got the opportunity to have that impact. So I do just think it's a really fantastic time to get involved and to see those projects develop and build. I mean I've been. When I had my first degree viva, I was actually talking at that point about climate change and you know, that was in 1990 and obviously studying geology, you see climates at different times through the whole of the geological record. And I remember the professor who did the VIVA was so dismissive of anthropogenic influences of climate change and I was being very vociferous about how I thought it was very, very different. So I've spent my whole career really looking at climate change and trying to get people to take notice of the impact and the resilience that was needed and the changes that needed to be made. And I feel we've finally got there, it's taken a whole career, we've finally got to the point where people are going, yeah, actually we do need to do something about this. So the opportunity is there now.

Speaker B: 29:56

And do you think for women because obviously you've had a very long career in the water industry over the years you've seen a big change in representation in the industry as well. What kind of stands out most to you? What are the things that are needed to attract women into the industry more?

Speaker A: 30:16

Yeah, I was thinking about this the other day as well, you know, when I joined. We've got a lot more visibility of women I think early in mid career and some more later career still not as many, you know, it's great to see that and I just think, you know, when I. I spent a long time being the most senior woman in the office, even when I was in fact very, very early career and that was quite hard just having nobody to sort of look to. I mean I'm not, you know, I've always. I shared a house with a load of blokes when I was at university. I'm not somebody who panics if they're. I'm not surrounded by loads of women. In fact, I'm always interested in balance. So there's definitely much more visibility. I think the thing that's is still challenging is what happens if you decide to have kids and we're not well supported from society to overall to help with that balance or with that juggle. And it is a fact, it's a really hard juggle. I've had so many conversations with women who have just sort of said, I'm just going to take some time out because I can't make this work. And I just say to them it is really hard sometimes to make things balanced, but it is really worth it if you can take a bit of a bigger picture and think about it's easier to stay in with something rather than get back in. But I do, I mean, and you know, I'd say generally, boy, are you resilient by the time you get through that. So when you're in a senior position you've weathered a lot and that stands you in really good stead. Particularly if you want to move into a kind of business level or business running kind of role where I think you're going to have to make some tough decisions or call out some, make your voice heard. You've probably got no truck with anybody by that stage if you stayed with it. So yeah, I think, I mean the other thing I think is. Well, I don't know whether it's really necessarily women, but I do think there has been, there's something about the recognition of the need for balance and taking a whole look at things. Maybe some of the sustainability, natural environment kind of agenda has been more driven by having women sort of staying or more women in the sector. Yeah. And maybe some of the more collaborative approaches, that recognition that it's not all about the hero at the front, it is about people working together to deliver something. Maybe that's been helped a bit by having more women involved. I don't know. It's not easy for anybody. You know, I see guys at work who are sharing childcare and it's had, you know, a sort of. They're really clear about the impact it's had on the pace at which they feel they can move through their career.

Speaker B: 32:50

I think the main thing here really is the balance. It needs to be an approach that fits the human. And I think that's the key learning for me really whenever I speak to people trying to, you know, juggle private life, having kids, work, building your career, it's the balance. And I think that's for me where the biggest impact can come from. If you see people as a human and then you try to find the solution for that human being rather than a one size fit all fits all because that will be the only way, I think, how you can accommodate people and keep people engaged to then try and make them excel in their private life and both in their career as well.

Speaker A: 33:31

We genuinely all want to work together to make a success of things. You know, it's such a values driven sector.

Speaker B: 33:39

Water.

Speaker A: 33:40

There's people really, you know, they might be particularly more towards the human health element, or they might be more towards the natural environment side of things, but they genuinely want to make a positive difference. You know, I see people working in, you know, water companies, you know, ops staff, you know, they're like, I don't know, fourth emergency service or whatever. It's, it's such a fundamental, basic thing and there's lots of very clever, well educated people. They're not doing it for the money, you know, sort of it's because they want to make a difference. And it's about that recognition that we've got that human interest, values driven group of people who really want to work together to make a success of things.

Speaker B: 34:23

Totally agree. Sal, thank you so much for sharing your insights. It was a really interesting discussion and I'm very sure that many of our listeners can take some snippets and use them for their own career journey and probably might have learned something about the water industry along the way as well. So thank you very much for being on the Women's Utility Network podcast.

Speaker A: 34:46

Thank you. It's been a pleasure, Sam.