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WUN4ALL
WUN's mission is to help women to connect with other women, so they can share learnings, build confidence, and develop their own passion for the fast moving utilities space. Through our podcast episodes, we aim to provide our listeners with the skills they need to build long-lasting and fulfilling careers in the sector.
Find us at: thewun.co.uk
WUN4ALL
Ep. 80 - Women Role Models- Leadership Legacy and the Portfolio Path
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In this latest WUN podcast WUN Co-Founder & Director Hayley Monks speaks to some other inspiring female leaders & role models, Rebecca Sedler, Managing Director of National Grid Interconnectors & former WUN Director and Monica Collins, Chair of Powerful Women and who holds several Non Exec. roles.
In a far ranging & fascinating discussion they explore the evolving landscape of female leadership and the growing trend of portfolio careers among women. Are we seeing enough women stepping into visible leadership roles? Or are too many opting for flexible, multi-faceted careers that may dilute their influence in traditional leadership spaces?
Key discussion points:
Visibility & Impact: Do we have enough women role models in leadership across sectors—business, politics, tech, and beyond?
Portfolio Careers: Why are so many women choosing portfolio careers? Is it a sign of empowerment, or a response to systemic barriers in traditional career paths?
Leadership Redefined: How do portfolio careers challenge or complement conventional leadership models?
Role Models for the Next Generation: What kind of role models do young women need today—and are they finding them?
Welcome to the Women's Utilities Network One For All Podcast, our corner of the world where we'll be talking all things energy water, sharing personal stories and debating female issues. Enjoy.
Speaker B:So, welcome to the One podcast, a series of podcasts where we explore issues, topics and challenges across the UK utility sector. In this podcast, women Role models, Leadership Legacy and the Portfolio Path. We're exploring the evolving landscape of female leadership and the growing trend of portfolio careers among women. Are we seeing enough women stepping into visible leadership roles or are too many women opting for flexible, multifaceted careers that may dilute their influence in the traditional leadership space? It's a really interesting topic and there's lots of background and stories from the women who are involved in either leadership roles or in portfolio careers. And I have two amazing women here with me today to discuss this very topic. So welcome. Rebecca and Monica. Hi, Hayley.
Speaker A:Hello.
Speaker C:Nice to see you, Hayley.
Speaker B:So brilliant to have you guys here. So, whilst we all know each other, which is amazing, I'd really like it if you could introduce yourself to our listeners, Rebecca, if you could introduce yourself and a bit about what you do.
Speaker A:Thanks, Hayley. So, I'm Rebecca Sadler. I am managing Directors of the Interconnectors business at National Grid. So that is the European assets that we have connecting the UK to five different countries. Been in National Grid for four years now. Before that I was roughly 10 years at EDF and before that about 10 years at E on. So an energy veteran through and through. Thanks for having me.
Speaker B:Thanks, Rebecca and Monica.
Speaker C:Yes, Monica Collings. I'm not an industry veteran, although I have been operating in the sector for almost a decade and prior to that I was working in automated retail, home improvement, lots of sectors adjacent to the energy transition. I'm a portfolio Ned and chair and I sit on a number of boards, supporting organizations that are largely connected to Net Zero. I'm the chair of Powerful Women and I'm a former Energy Retail Chief executive.
Speaker B:Excellent. Well, thank you both for joining me today on this discussion topic. As we go through the next sort of half an hour or so, I really want to focus on a few key areas around visibility and impact in terms of do we have enough women role models in the sector? I'd like to explore a bit about portfolio careers and why women may be choosing to take that route as an option about how maybe leadership is being redefined or may need to be redefined so that we have leadership role models there. And when we're thinking of the generation of women leaders that are following us do we have enough role models and what kind of role models do you think that they're looking for? So if we keep those kinds of, of key points in mind as we go through, through the discussion, it would be great to hear your views. I think I'm going to start off with a bit of a, maybe a sort of a bit of a close question. Start with you if I can. Rebecca, do you think there are enough women in senior leadership roles within the utilities sector?
Speaker A:I know that there's a plethora of data out there on this and I happen to work in an organization which is very balanced, actually at the senior table, within the senior teams, across the business, both, you know, across functional areas and across the operational areas. But I would be lying to say that most of the meetings I'm in are gender balanced and the experience I have had along the way has been gender balanced. I have predominantly worked with and for men throughout my career and actually one of the drivers for me to move to National Grid was because of their true authentic commitment to gender diversity and actually the wider inclusion agenda. It's not, you know, not just on gender, on all forms of inclusion. So unfortunately, I still think that as a sector, we still have more to do to balance out gender equality and diversity across different areas, different sub areas of the sector to get true representation.
Speaker B:Monica, what are your thoughts on that?
Speaker C:It's a hard no for me. I mean, I just don't think we've done enough to get women into those, particularly the executive leadership positions. If you look at the annual State of the Nation report the Powerful One has published, of the top 100 companies that employ roughly around 300,000 of the energy sector workforce, 73% of those have no women in their executive team. So at a sector level, we are seeing a void only out of 100 of those companies, only eight female CEOs. Now, when I was the CEO, that was only four. So we are seeing progress in the numbers, but it is a glacial pace. And, you know, much like Rebecca's observations, I have sat as the only woman in many rooms on a number of occasions, and I think that the conversations have not been as fruitful as they might have been had we had more balance in representation. So I think there are some real challenges and barriers which I'm sure we'll come on to talk about. But no, I don't think we have enough women in leadership positions and definitely something we need to do a bit about.
Speaker B:So you literally set up nicely for my next question in terms of what are the Perceived or actual barriers, cultural barriers to getting women into those executive and leadership positions.
Speaker A:I mean, it's really hard, right? It's really hard to go through the. You know, I'd call out two major distinctions in a woman's journey, and I mean in many women's journey to men, one is if and when a woman chooses to have children, the physical and the emotional turmoil that can create in one's life. And just the, you know, the absence of any kind of playbook being in place for how you work through that with a demanding role. And then, and, you know, the, the. And adjust afterwards. And then I'd also say later on with the menopause, the impact that that can have on, on women, certainly for me, it's been observing either going through those. Haven't gone through the menopause yet, but I've got plenty of friends around me who are, who are. And I'm. And I've learned so much about it. But certainly having had three children and gone through that journey, albeit with an incredibly supportive partner with my health, with really robust children, thankfully. And I can imagine if you don't have, you know, that kind of support level or you have other issues to deal with, just how terribly, you know, traumatic and stressful it could be. So even in quite a fortunate position that I was in, it was really, really difficult time in my life, really difficult. And I see plenty of women struggle for all kinds of reasons at those stages of their career. And I think that if they're in a sector which isn't fully embracing and supporting, you know, the challenges they may be going through, then it does drive you in a certain direction. It's very difficult to recover from that.
Speaker B:And do you think, and I'd be interested in your views, Monica, because you've chosen to go down the portfolio, do you think that the lack of flexibility and the cultural setup of the utilities sector added with the pressures that you described is one of the factors that's driving women to look at a different career choice, to take that portfolio career, to work in a more flexible environment, rather than trying to maybe, you know, slog it out to get to a senior role within a particular company.
Speaker C:So I think that we have to acknowledge the fact that this sector is transforming, it's changing. It's a place where we've experienced the energy crisis. You know, prior to that, we had Covid. It's a critical service that we're delivering for the country and that there are expectations that come with that in terms of the pressures and adversity that one needs to lead through. And it's not easy. It's definitely not easy. And it hasn't been an easy time for the entire sector, but one that had plenty of opportunity. And I think, you know, we cannot underestimate the role that flexibility plays in enabling women to fully participate in that, number one. And that flexibility needs to come in different ways at different points in a person's life. In my view, women experience more career interruptions. Rebecca described what book a couple of those points might look like. But my own observations, having been in the top job and leading organizations through that energy crisis and having two children of my own, and being a single mom and trying to navigate complexity as a public facing figure at a time which was incredibly difficult, dealing with the personal challenges alongside the professional challenges, difficult for anyone. But then you add the context that we're operating in and it's even more difficult. And people have choices about where they want to go, where they want to develop and grow and have meaningful careers. And the choices that they make are based on whether or not they get the support around them. And some industries are better at this. If you look at retail, for example, there are more women in retail. And some of the structures are not designed in the way that legacy energy structures have traditionally been based, which have had biases embedded within them just because of the nature of the fact that they were built by men many years ago for men and that they haven't necessarily evolved at the pace of the number of women that have come into the sector. I think there's a whole interesting piece around how you set up the right environments for women to thrive and succeed and whether it's just a little bit harder because of the context that we're operating in than perhaps other sectors that it might be easier within. I also think that there is something about us having done a really fantastic job as a sector in presenting the fact that this is a place of lots of opportunities and doing a great job at attracting a whole load of women, but then struggling with how to hold on to some of those women and particularly progressing through the pipeline. I know one's done a great job with collecting data and publishing reports on retention in the sector. And some of the numbers are presented as challenging around people thinking about whether or not they need to actually leave in order to get flexibility that they're looking for as their families evolve or as their care provision needs change. From a portfolio perspective, I think there is an idea or sort of a holy grail that everyone holds onto at some point, you know, they'd like to get to a point where you could build a portfolio and have a number of roles and have more flexibility and work in a way that doesn't require you to be fully present all day, every day. And certainly through the energy crisis, you know, I was working 7 to 11 every day and across most weekends and being pulled into all sorts of government conversations which was challenging to balance alongside my family life. And a portfolio does give you that and it is attractive. However, that's assuming everything's going well all the time and that you're not needed to pull into a crisis or a situation that might drop on you and then you need to be the one that's flexible. And so it has its pros, it definitely does. But there are also some challenges that come with that portfolio type of approach which I don't know if we have enough conversations about because particularly at board level, the responsibilities attached to a NED or chair are significant.
Speaker B:Yeah, the bit that made me think then in terms of, well, does it, you know, what we see of women on the portfolio or maybe what we see on LinkedIn is that it's flexible. You know, I'm doing this little bit here, I'm doing this little bit there. But I think you're right. Maybe the context around the level of responsibility of being in NED isn't probably fully understood in terms of the balance of that and the flexibility versus what it would be to be a full time leader in an organization. That perception of you are on call, on demand 24 7, 365. Although Rebecca, I'm not sure you feel it's like that. Do you or do you?
Speaker A:I'd love to say I got on call under my arm through 365. That is my commitment to national government, run critical national infrastructure. And you know, there are, it's a, it's when you, when you run operational teams, I guess you do have that kind of responsibility. But I also have an ea, a chief of staff and a very large team of budget and all kinds of things to flex that and accommodate that for, not just for me, but for everyone who works with me. So I have a huge amount of freedom, right, to flex. The challenge that I always have is the balance and rebalancing and constant, you know, optimization of my calendar between everything that pulls me and ensuring that I'm, I'm just not overburdening myself and I'm making sure that my energy continues not just is sat out in my professional life, but continues to my personal life that I need it for for everything that I want to, I've got a rich personal life and I want to ensure that that's, that's the backbone, that's the spy in the essence of my, what I call a successful life. Right. But I do find that with a lot of senior professional women that I meet, they have a, they have flexibility, they have resources, they have all kinds of license to, and agency to sculpt their work days and weeks, how they want to. But they tend to have a, an incredibly high level of conscientiousness to the organization they work for and their team members around them. Maybe more so than their male colleagues. I don't know. Maybe. I don't know. But certainly this, this level of conscientiousness is something that struck a chord with me and many, many female professionals that I, I connect with. And so it tends to be more common that a huge sense of obligation and duty for, for the organization, which then overrides a sensible balance, which then leads to a kind of resentment and a burnout and feeling that, you know, you can't continue. And what I, what I really aspire to do is, is to keep some semblance of a positive balance in, in, in my professional career because I really, I'm one of these weird people that actually wants, for as long as possible, you know, in kind of corporate roles. That's how I kind of feel. I just, I absolutely love the sector. I love all the jobs I've done and I love the people I work with. And I don't think that I would be able to have such a diverse circle, particularly with young people, if I wasn't in these kind of organizations. I don't think I'd be challenged and amazed every day like as I am with such diversity of thought and spirit and views. And that's one of my, I'd say, top three reasons for working in large energy organizations, for sure. You know, it's not just the people and the values and my personal alignment with the values of the organizations I work for. It's the diversity of people. It's the. What it does to my personal circle, you know, and then therefore how it fuels me as a, as a human being.
Speaker C:And a very interesting point, isn't it around how we actually. This sort of societal expectation, expectation that we can have it all and do it all and balance it all. And it is a juggle and a balance and it has to, you know, to a point, you can't have it all at the same time. And you have to make sacrifices and compromises and then you re evaluate where you are, and sometimes you get it right, and sometimes you get it wrong, and then you go again.
Speaker B:And I think that's a really interesting point, Monica, because we do. People actually take that time and say, actually, where am I today? What's working? What isn't working? And go again. Your example, Rebecca, about, you know, most women have some of the resource or senior women, you know, have some of the resources you have, but are potentially more conscientious or pushing themselves harder. Which makes me go, actually, how do we get you as a role model and what you do and how you're working out there to be more visible to people in terms of, look, you can do it, but it requires this level of a discipline or it requires this level of activity. So people feel that they can aspire to that without having to make so many compromises that then feel they no longer can stay in the organization.
Speaker A:What I would say is, aside from, you know, having network and support circle in a great kind of tribe of females around you that understand your profession and can give you some very useful words of wisdom, what was really revolutionary to me was having a coach. And I really struggled with the balance and rebalancing because I just see that work, you know, work's infinite, isn't it? Right? You can. It truly is infinite. And I've always got drawn into so many different things in every single job that I've done because I love it. And I mean, I'm so keen to be as much used as possible and, you know, to learn. But I really struggled with the balance, and I just ended up overburdening myself. Not to a point where I didn't deliver, but to a point where it would just drain me and just put needless pressure on me for nothing. I couldn't really prioritize effectively. I think if I really reflect back on it. And one of the most poignant changes in my approach came from when I really embraced a coach and what I mean, embrace a coach. I mean, I really honestly opened myself up to coaching conversations and didn't just kind of, oh, I just want to chat through this career conversation, or I want to give you this sort of very fabricated story of myself. And I don't really want to get deep. I've had those kind of coaches before. But I actually, I think it was about 2018, 2019, and I worked with a coach who really got to the essence of some of my issues and was relentlessly honest, required honesty for me, and was relentlessly frank back we really got into the thick of it and she just kept on asking, well, but who, you know, who runs your diary? Who makes a decision? So I kept on having to say, well, it's me. Well, who's booking all these meetings and who said yes to this? Well, it's, it's me. She's like, so who do you think can do something about this? Rebecca? You know, and I know it sounds so obvious that I think I was in a place where I was sort of blaming everyone else or, you know, acting like some kind of heroin that was constantly put upon when it actually all was within my gift to change in any case. And sometimes you just need to work with my case. Having that kind of coaching intervention was very, very impactful and sometimes it requires that kind of honest conversation essentially with yourself, someone holding up a mirror to empower yourself. You know, I wasn't going to listen to it from anyone else. It took someone who was, you know, I kind of did so. And now I think there's much more coaching resources. You can have much, you know, there's many more coaches, there's, you can do online, face to face at different times in your career. And I would really, really advise anyone who is struggling with these kind of issues, which are incredibly personal. They are, you know, exposing your vulnerabilities. They're really. And they're also, you know, to let people pick away narratives that you might have built up that might not be true, they might be true, some of them might not be. And then they might be difficult to discuss with your partner, with your family, with your friends, that that's been. I would really advise anyone to open themselves up to have coaching slash therapy slash coaching.
Speaker B:Do you have, do you have a coach or have you had a coach.
Speaker C:Coach, mentor, sponsors, everybody. I think the idea of having a personal board of people, people and including within that, you know, cheerleaders. My mum's my biggest fan and I always ring her when I'm feeling a bit flat and need picking up because she loves everything I do and I can't do anything wrong in her eyes, which is wonderful. But you know, there's so many people that can support you on your journey and you can never start too early in your career with getting support and help from others that give you a valuable insight into, you know, your own self awareness, but also holding up that mirror at times when you need it. And I think, you know, some of the most impactful people that I've worked with have been either executive coaches or a career coach, particularly when I was at a pivotal moment, a kind of career defining moment and making big decisions about what I wanted to do next. And those real frank, really challenging, crunchy questions like what does work actually mean to you? Why do you come into work every day? And, you know, really challenging me to think about what I was doing and why I was doing it. I think sponsors are really important for women particularly. And the reason that I say that is when you're having children and you're stepping out of the workforce, people that can keep your name alive when you're not in the organization or help you to put your name in the frame for projects when you're not in the room is something that is really valuable and can help women to get that platform and be involved in things that they wouldn't otherwise get those opportunities for. And I've done quite a lot of interviews and conversations with women from across the sector and they've talked about significant male allies, you know, whether that's male leaders or people from across the organisation who have just helped them with networking, profile raising, you know, navigating the organisation to find out where some of these opportunities exist. And when you are, let's say, marginalised because there are less women in the room and less women in the conversation, it can feel more challenging to get into some of those conversations and spaces. And particularly if you're not necessarily as assertive or that you have a little bit of imposter syndrome or something that's taken hold of you in that moment. So having people that can support your career and be in your tribe and on your team is critical, I think.
Speaker B:No, I agree. And I think both of you mentioning coaching and how it's gone through your careers, is that one thing you think maybe companies could offer more to women in their career journey to have access to a coach? Not everybody will ask. I know that's one of my key weaknesses. I'm not very good at asking for help. But if you knew that the facility was available, ready there to help you, do you think that could be something that could help retain women in the sector, more coaches available to support women through those challenging times?
Speaker A:I think so. I think it's an incredibly personal and effective support tool. And I do think also it's not the huge investment it once was. I mean, you know, back in the day coaching was one to one with pretty senior coaches and you know, that you both had to travel to and et cetera, et cetera. Now there's so many online platforms, there's so many different types of coaches that specialize in different types of topics for individuals. And there's, as you say, there's particular times in your, in your career journey where you may need some kind of intervention. I think it's a business case. I, I think it would be pretty easy to do a, A business, a kind of commercial business case for an organization. I'm. And I'm sure, you know, National Grid widely offers coaching resources to individuals, all levels of the organization, and I'm sure that's because they've realized what it does to productivity and engagement and retention. But I've spoken to countless individuals who have had huge benefits, not from perpetual coaching, from just specific interventions at specific times. But it's those moments where you make fundamental decisions, as Monica was saying about, you know, the course your career could take. And that can be leaving an organization, that can be stepping down for a role, not going for an opportunity. So to be coached through that and to really make the right decision, but often for you and the organisation is a fantastic outcome.
Speaker C:I think there's a really interesting sort of broader point that you just touched on there, Hayley, around women having a voice and asking for the things that they need in order to make their lives easier. And it's, you know, we're talking about it in the context of gender, but actually, you know, when you're thinking about inclusive environments, when people ask for things that are going to help them to be thriving at work, are more effective, and that might well be spaces to pray. It might be, you know, decompression rooms, it might be safe spaces for women to express milk when they come back, as, you know, from that leave as returning mothers, there's all sorts of things that would just make life a little bit easier or help people to feel a stronger sense of belonging to an organisation. And often we don't want to trouble people and we don't want to ask for these things. But why not? Because actually, if it's going to help other people to stay in the workforce and help the retention numbers and make life better and easier for other people, then perhaps we should be the ones who are championing. That comes back to your point around leadership, right?
Speaker A:But I think that comes to also the point of community, because I'm never going to be the first person to ask for anything. I've just, I just, I can't stand being perceived as kind of grasping, you know, or kind of undeserving or pushy when I've kind of put forward a request for something or really prioritize my, myself and what could support me or help me. It's typically because I've had a chat with my mates at work and someone's piped up about something that the female they've got. I didn't realize that you could do that, that they were offering coaches or that you could have a flexi day on air or that you could, you know, there was that training course on offer or what. And that's why it's so important to have that support network that you just, you know, chew the fat with about what's going on in your role and organization. And yet you. You have. You know, you have that. That. That kind of chamber to entrusted circle to. To share what's going on and understand how other people have resolved these. These things.
Speaker B:Yeah, I agree. And I think that was one. That's one of the things that I love about one and what we do, we. We often say, find your tribe. You know, I love the magic of when people get in a room and they connect, and you find that people have then gone off and had conversations or are supporting one another through difficult times. I think that's clear that we all think that having that group of support network around you is absolutely crucial. And it's making sure that we're asking as well, isn't it, then, in terms of when we're in need, reaching out and getting the right kind of support in your careers. I'd love to hear from each of you whether or not there is somebody that you sort of. There was a role model out there, somebody you think, oh, wow, you know, I've admired those. Or I. Because I've seen them do it, or is there anybody that has been standout for you guys and you've taken a little bit of their magic or you've followed a bit of what they've done and inspired you in your career?
Speaker A:I'm happy to start with this one. So, I mean, I've always found the term role model really uncomfortable. And Hayley, you probably know this. We must have had this conversation a couple of times. I just always found it uncomfortable. I found thinking about someone as a role model or being perceived as a role model, you're being perceived as a role model. Are really uncomfortable. And I don't know why it is. I think it's because a person at work in the role they do for me, can never be a role model, because I care about someone's humanity first and foremost. You know, I care about who they are, like, what they believe in, what they love. And so thinking about it from a From a kind of the shell, the veneer of their profession is almost a superficial way. That's still kind of my fundamental belief. But I think that if I step back and I think more broadly about traits that I've seen people display that have inspired me or moments where I've met professionals who've made me feel a certain way, and that's just completely changed the course of my career or being just bowled over by displays of kindness at work and impact. You know, like one of the most poignant moments of my. My career is when someone came and thanked me because they were able to get a mortgage, right? And, you know, I've managed hundreds, probably thousands of people recruit thousands of people impacted, you know, impacted remuneration and compensation and reward in loads of different ways. But I will always remember the first time someone came and said that to me and how that made me feel and the kind of responsibility that made me aware of that I'd been pretty flippant about hitherto. I guess I've refined my view of role models about to not be so kind of firm as. It's the archetype of that person. It is a mold of that whole person. No, it's not. You know, and you obviously know, and I guess it's me just adjusting my thinking to parts and glimmers of people that you can read together. I just think it's helpful to kind of explain how I think about it, because I do think we hear role model so much now, and it is sometimes, like, conveyed as, like, a whole person. Like everything about that person. It doesn't have to be. But to answer the question, I mean, I'm really good friends with someone called Cathy Maclay. She's gonna be so embarrassed when she says this when she hears this. Who I met for the first time. Gosh, it's over well over 15 years ago. It might even be getting cut onto 20 years ago. And she's always been such an inspiration to me through many different ways. You know, we've worked together. Intellectual rigor, kindness, adaptability, fun. You know, I could go on and on, friendship, but she's just inspires me to do better and think about the world in a different way. She's had a very different personal life choice than me in terms of how she chooses to live her life and country she's lived in and roles she's taken. We really are quite different in a lot of ways, but we've always been super close and connected. You know, she's quite weird because we are. We are Different. But she's always been an inspiration to me and I'm lucky that she's one of the quite a few females, very close friends I've got in the. In the sector that know me deeply and who allow and who share their lives with me and their experiences with me deeply are incredibly generous and there's no way that I would have had the. I'm gonna call it success like the ride that I've had and the, you know, got through some pretty tricky times and been able to reset and bounce back as quickly as I have and also have so much optimism for the future if it weren't for those. Those people. I've had plenty of male role models though, as well, Hayley, like plenty of them and many more male bosses and colleagues actually than female along the way. And I wouldn't have had the career I've had certainly without the sponsorship of men and the continued sponsorship of men, I have to say, and worked for many patient men in my time and had life, lots of really close, like male friends. I have amazing male colleagues today, but I have to say, like my inner tribe, you know, the closest of the close, like the Cathy and Clays have all been female pretty much.
Speaker B:And then she will be embarrassed when she hears her name, but I'm sure she'll secretly love it as well. I'm sure she'll secretly. What about you, Monica?
Speaker C:So I. I want to pick up on the word that Rebecca used, which is inspire and inspiration, because I think that that through the work that I do, particularly now in my portfolio, I see the importance of that for the next generation coming through in terms of that role modeling piece. So I was at the Young Energy Professionals Awards last week, I was doing some judging and then presented one of the awards and sat next to this amazing lady and she was very early on in her career and she'd transitioned from a different place, but she was talking about her director in her business and what a role model she was to her because she was so inspiring. And I have sat and observed Youth Insights panels for one of the network companies and the next generation coming through, you know, between 14, 16, 17 year olds and talking about when they're looking at apprenticeships or jobs, they're looking at what women sit on the board, what women are in the executive team. Who can I see that looks like me? That shows me that through this organisation I'm going to progress and that there is confidence that actually this is a place where I can have a meaningful career and grow through the ranks. So to Speak and stay here and have a meaningful career defining experience. And I think that there is something in, we talk about this Frasier sphere, it, believe it, and holding people up as poster girls and all the rest of it. I never set out to be that for anybody else. But I think there is something important in knowing that there are people who have trodden similar paths that you can relate to and understand and offer perspectives that are valuable that show you that this is important. So my two role models, I've got one chap who, who I worked for many years ago and he had a very similar profile in terms of makeup to me. And, and that's, you know, insights, profiles and preferred characteristics and the worst of it. And I always thought to myself, well, look where he's got to, and if he can do it and he's got the same kind of preferences that I have, then I can, because I'm looking at him and going, he will be having the same conversations in his head and he'll be navigating the same challenges in the same way with how he shows up and, and how he deals with some of that. And then another lady who I actually, I was exchanging messages with her last week and I said to her, you know, you've always inspired me. And she said, I'm so humbled because I don't feel like I deserve it. And, you know, I never really thought that you thought that of me. But she was a senior exec when I was very early on in my career. And I said to her, look, I always looked up to you and I always felt like in terms of the life that you had led, she'd gone through divorces herself, she'd got children from different marriages, as I had. And I looked at her and the experiences that she'd had in her career and she'd progressed successfully, was traveling around the world and thought, gosh, you know, actually if I could be like you, that would inspire me and drive me to do great work to help others in the way that you help others. And some of those things that she exhibited. And so I think there was something for me in finding role models in the places where perhaps you need to believe a truth about yourself or have the confidence to know that there are opportunities available to you and they want to see.
Speaker B:That's great, great advice to hear. And I think having listened to both of you and both different careers, different backgrounds, different roles, now, I think, you know, not using the word role model, but providing inspiration to the community out there and those listening to this podcast Having enough women coming into the sector, staying in the sector, thriving and going on to be senior leaders in the sector is going to be key in transforming energy and utilities. So what advice would you give to a young woman who was entering the sector or currently quite new in it, especially if they were torn between staying and climbing the corporate ladder versus trying to pursue a more flexible career? And in that, do you think you can go for a portfolio career option earlier in your career, or is it something that you can only do on the back of experience? I start with you on that, Monica.
Speaker C:Yeah, so, I mean, when I first started being a pro bono trustee about four or five years ago, before I actually took my step down from my executive career into a portfolio role, and it was because I recognized that I would at some point want to do that, but needed to start building the skills so that I had the experience, even having been a CEO and being in the boardroom for more moments than I care to mention, but so that I had the specific governance experience and committee experience related to operating as a portfolio net, as it was a conscious decision to plan that into my career journey, I would say that I've had the most squiggly career and it's been brilliant because I've taken opportunities that have been presented, but also I've done roles, taken decisions that I needed to in order to give me what I needed to support my family and my children. And so there is a something in it for me around the way in which you decide to seize opportunities more over specific milestones to achieve in a career and talking about corporate ladders, because I think those days are gone. I genuinely think that, you know, chasing titles and the next promotion isn't where we're headed. And particularly in a sector that is trans transforming. It's about the skills that you develop, it's about the opportunities that you seize and the way in which you embrace that. Do you think?
Speaker A:Rebecca, I've always had a strong belief in credibility, right? I think I have to feel, first of all, I have to be credible to myself to feel that I deserve to do a job and that I can have the impact on the job that I want to do and the people around me in the right way. And I think that there are some roles where that credibility relies more on technical knowledge that you might have. I mean, networks is a pretty good example of that, right? In some areas, you know, when you're dealing with huge assets and surrounded by electrical engineers, you have to, you know, you have to learn some of the subject matter there's other roles where it's more about your leadership capability and competences and behaviors. And as we all know, some of those are learned, developed through experiences, but some of them are nurtured in different ways and evolve different times of your organization. And then there's a kind of credibility that comes with your natural preferences and as Monica was saying, your kind of personality type and the way that you think about things. And I think the trick is to, whether you're in corporate roles, you're running your own business, you're doing ned roles or trustee roles to find the fit between what you personally have to offer through the experience that you've gained at that point in your time, since your technical, whatever it is, whatever sector you come from, backing your preferences of how you like to work and who you like to work with and what gets the best of you, and fit that with the, with the organization or the, the environment. I really am a big believer in kind of chemistry and fit of. I don't mean like we're hiring on our corporate fit. So everyone is the same. I genuinely mean in a very individual way to you what you find joyful at work and gets the best out of you. And I think it's a mixture between all those kind of things. As I said earlier, you know, I'm sure that there's many different drivers and you know, Hayley, I know that you went through quite a big consideration as well in certain career moments in your career, whether you're going to take certain routes at certain times. Right. And we all have those choices. Ultimately, you have to be guided by, you've got one life, right. And you want to make it as joyful, as rich, as fulfilling as possible. And quite a lot of it comes down particularly after a certain point in your career where, you know, I've not got the, the debts to pay that I once did. I've not, you know, I'm not, you know, you do end up in this crazy place where, you know, you, you were a 21 to 22 year old graduate coming out with debts and you literally was, you know, I never thought about, oh, has this organization got enough women? I was just like wanting to, I need to get paid. You know, I'm like, pay me. I've been, yeah, I've been making teas and cleaning toilets in my, in my breaks at university. You know, there's no trust fund waiting for me. I needed to get money and then, and that continued for a while. And it takes a really big shift in mindset even in your your later years when you grafted the decades to kind of think you're not. It's not about the money anymore. That's not the key driver. It's not a about, you know, even needing to fill up your time. You have a lot more agency than that and really what matters to you. And, and so I think it's a really individual choice. And I think it depends, you know, the energy sector is super broad. I think it really depends where you want to position yourself at what level, what kind of, you know, I don't mean like hierarchical level, as Marcus says, like whereabouts in the sector and to what purpose and with what community. So, yeah, I think it's a. I think it's. The option now seems to be much more open to lots of different people because there's lots of different attributes that many different people can bring to these roles. Right. So I don't think there's a script there, but I think that it's all our individual responsibility to try and curate the best, not like career, just life for us and make the right choices. And I also don't think it's a kind of binary thing. I've got plenty of people in my circle who took on a number of ned roles and then went back into a corporate role. I've also had people who ran their own business for like 20 years and then decided to do a corporate role. So I think it can change. It seems to be incredibly fluid at the moment because there's so much evolution going on around us.
Speaker B:Yeah. And I think that's the takeaway from listening to you both. You know, you're both experienced and accomplished in your fields and we need to keep more women in the sector, not just from a balanced perspective, but to be a reflection of the community that we serve. We need women in the sector. And whether that's in leadership roles or in portfolio career roles, where they are helping the sector in different ways. And as you say, it's, you know, it can be different throughout your career at different points. Just because you've chosen one path doesn't mean that you can change the path at any point. But clearly the impact of coaching, sponsorship, having that support, community around you is key. The last sort of point or question that I want to ask before I try and wrap us up, because I feel we could spend a lot of time talking is about visibility and how important or valuable your perception is on visibility of women in the sector. So any thoughts on that, Monica?
Speaker C:Well, I think I kind of alluded to some of this earlier around Being able to see inspiring women that give you hope that actually there is an opportunity for you to develop your career in a place where there's lots of opportunity to be seen. And so I think that visibility of women is important until we reach critical mass. Because, you know, if you go to a conference, and unbelievably still I go to conferences and there are no women on panels, or you get the majority of panels where there are still all men, it sends a very clear signal. But also you're getting a lack of representation and diversity of thought in the conversations that are being presented. And therefore how can you ensure that when decision making happens, happens, but being really thoughtful and inclusive about the way in which that. That manifesting and playing out. I think there is, and I've had lots of conversations about this whole poster girl piece. And certainly when I was the only female CEO running a retailer, I felt like there was a vast responsibility upon me with a kind of weight of all womenkind to show that, you know, actually you can be a CEO and you can do this if you want to, and you can be authentic and genuine in the way in which you do it. You don't have to copy everybody else. You don't have to pay like a man in order to do this. Because that felt like something that the world needed to hear. And what I was hearing back is that actually, yes, people wanted to see that. But I think as the sector evolves and we see all of the brilliant women that are coming through, you know, actually we, within that female population, we see a great deal of diversity. I mean, Rebecca and I have had very different careers. You see that across a lot of women from all over the. All over the place in terms of the way in which they build meaningful career paths through energy. And I think that's equally as important to see that we are embracing different talents because that's what we're set to need. And women develop skills that perhaps men don't necessarily develop at the same pace or in the same way. Being a mother gives you a. A broad variety of skills that you take when you're off on maternity leave. The world doesn't stop when you leave the workforce and come back into it. And I think that there's something to be celebrated about that and visibility that will be attached to that. It's important, I think.
Speaker B:Yeah, negotiation skills come to mind when I think about children.
Speaker C:Monica UN Peacekeeper. I mean, yeah, totally.
Speaker B:Rebecca, what about your thoughts on visibility? Because you work for a huge organization.
Speaker A:Yeah, I think visibility is incredibly important. So I think that there are plenty of brilliant females who think that you're. I'm just going to do my job, really do a great job, not cause any fuss, you know, and, and I'm going to, and the, the right thing will happen to me, you know, justice will be served because I'll be rewarded for doing those jobs and I'll be, you know, I'll be promot, promoted or I'll get paid more money or I'll get opportunities. And it was a big blessing that I had to like I remember when I first went to EDF and I told my boss I didn't have a LinkedIn profile and it was like, what? Why have you not got a LinkedIn profile? And I was like, what do I need one? You know, it's just like the last thing on my mind. And I thought, you know, I know, I know people, I get out and about in the sector and whatever and it's just like. So it was really interesting to start to think more broadly about how I create visibility for myself above and beyond, beyond just doing a good job and trying to be a nice person and make connections. And so I do think that one should think broadly about how they do create that visibility for themselves and those, and those connections and amplify their brand in a credible way, you know, in a credible way. Not be a marketing machine for themselves but really, you know, have a, have a purpose, have a message, make meaningful connections in a. And I do think it's, it carries much more weight these days where so many career. There's so much exchange of information and then obvious career opportunities that come via approaches on social media and platforms. You know, I can't tell you, I mean I can't respond to all the stuff that comes to me by social. You know, I learned a long time ago I can't respond to all that. I feel like everyone who contacts me a job, I should have at least conversation. But I, it's an opportunity cost, I just can't invest in it. And you, I'm sure you both know what it's like. And if I think back to well, what would that be like if I didn't invest in my social media profile or if I didn't do events or if I didn't, you know, expand my network beyond kind of my immediate job and actually know people in other places of the sector. So visibility and exchange of information and broadening oneself create opportunities and they also, you know, enrich, enrich your career. So I think that you could almost pick that hayley as a, as a theme. VR Next podcast How to create visibility. There's many different ways to do it. You know, I'm sure we've all picked what was worked for us in our style, but it's very important. It creates options. Everyone needs to feel freedom, and it's the options that get you your freedom.
Speaker B:That's brilliant. It's been a really great conversation, so I want to take the time to thank you both for your time to come on here and discuss the topic. I think we're all working towards the same goals in time in terms of trying to encourage women into the sector to stay in the sector in whichever way is going to work for them and their lives and their careers. So thank you both for sharing your experience and your intellect with me during this time.
Speaker A:Thanks, Bailey.
Speaker C:Nice to see you both. Bye.
Speaker A:Bye.
Speaker C:Sa.