S03E06 Global Color Visions with Sara Forsmark

In this candid conversation I will talk with Sara Forsmark about the great challenges of creating a global color vision for the sports performance brand Adidas. How does she incorporate topics such as sustainability and inclusivity in her colourful work? Print and pattern is key in the world of apparel and footwear, how are they materialised in color visions? Sara is a fervent color advocate but even more so when it comes to debunking color perceptions and concepts, let's listen which ones nerve her the most. 
 
Sara Forsmark is a creative who navigates and transforms the complex world of color into future forward color concepts and visions.

For Sara, color is beauty and currency; for life, humanity, design, brands and business. With color at the core, her ambition is to be a strong voice for color by creating awareness of all its qualities; as a creator of aesthetic experiences, to shaping meaningful connections between brand, culture and its audiences, and beyond.

With a big picture view, she contextualises worldly movements and growing disruptive shifts into brand relevant color insights and content; and fuses creativity with science; to craft, drive and lead way for new authentic and purposeful color expressions and stories; that speaks brand, debunks aesthetic norms and provokes emotion towards a better and different tomorrow.

Her work experiences span across a diverse range of categories and brands, a journey that started at agencies creating CMF designs for clients as LG, Hewlett-Packard and Bowers & Wilkins, before moving into the world of sports, shaping and steering brand global creative visions for color at adidas. A color design role she currently holds in the adidas Global Creative Direction team.

Transcript

Judith van Vliet: Hey, everyone. Welcome back to the Color Authority Podcast. I'm going to be interviewing today Sara Forsmark. She is a creative who navigates and transforms the complex world of color into future forward color concepts and visions. For Sara, color is beauty and currency for life, humanity, design, brands, and business. With color at the core, her ambition is to be a strong voice for color by creating awareness of all its qualities. Now, as a creator of aesthetic experiences, she shapes meaningful connections between brand culture and its audiences. Her work experiences span across a diverse range of categories and brands, a journey that started at agencies creating CMF designs for clients as LG, Hewlett Packard, and Bowers and Wilkins, before moving into the world of sports, shaping and steering brand global creative visions for color at Adidas. A color design role she currently holds in the Adidas Global Creative Direction team. Welcome to The Color Authority, Sara. How are you today?

Sara Forsmark: I'm very well, thank you.

Judith van Vliet: I'm happy to have you. And it's a lovely Friday, sunny morning in Milan. I hope it is as well in Germany. Not really.

Sara Forsmark: It's a very cloudy day here. Chilly, I think. Yeah.

Judith van Vliet: It's always a good day to talk about color. So, as with all of my podcasts, the first question, I think you already know what's coming. Sara, what is color to you?

Sara Forsmark: Color is everything. I mean, color is so big. It's so many different ways we can use color.  And it's also very complex. And I think for me, it's the beauty, from a professional point of view, is kind of a currency. I like to call it a currency. I think it's like color can make you happy, it can make you sad. And of course, it can have such a different influence depending on how you use color. And I think that's the beautiful thing with color, it's kind of mysterious in one sense, because in one sense, we think we understand it, in one sense, we don't. I think anyone who knows me would always hear me say, like, that color is beautiful. This is really beautiful. And I think that is the word I've probably used the most in my professional career in my life.

Judith van Vliet: Yeah, talking about your professional career, it's been quite a long time you've been working in color. Can you talk people a little bit about how your life in color start? Where did you start and where are you now?

Sara Forsmark: It's been a journey. I studied different things as a kid, like everyone else, like, to draw, like, to do that thing very classic. And then I studied art, I studied aesthetics, and then I started studying that true design. And it was not until I actually started working in my first internship that I realized a second internship sorry. That I realized you can work with color. And I was like, oh, that's very interesting. So I applied for a job doing CMF design, and that's kind of where it started. And I think it's been a journey. I don't know, it's more than ten plus years, right? And started with CMF, and then you kind of moving forward and then you realize it can actually work just with colors. And it doesn't exclude any of the other parts, of course, but just having color as a profession, it's just a privilege, right? And I think it's been a really big journey. If I look at where it started with CMF, going to where I am now, I also started within agencies, and I work for a big brand at Adidas. So I started with CMF, creating products for clients within this agency environment. Until today, I create big visions and strategies of color globally for Adidas. So it's like, it's more about the big evidence, really, going from zooming in on details to going to the big division. So my journey has been kind of like a natural, organic shift. Quite a lot of a long journey, a lot of work to get there.

Judith van Vliet: Almost everybody that I speak to and my case is exactly the same, they are working in the field of color by accident.

Sara Forsmark: Yeah, a little bit.

Judith van Vliet: I mean, also because still, there's not really a color education like, per se. Most people are coming from university or the academy or indeed did design, product design, or industrial design. But it's so funny how at the moment that people get in touch with color, just a world opens to them.

Sara Forsmark: It's amazing. Honestly. I love my job. I really do love my job. I think with my colleagues, sometimes we need to pinch ourselves. Like, actually, this is what we do for a living. As I say, it actually comes like an accident. And the beautiful thing with color when I say is everything. You can never stop learning. You will never stop learning. And I think this is like every not every day, maybe, but we keep on learning. And I think even if I think just looking back a month ago, I know I know a lot of new stuff today about color that I didn't know a month ago. And I think there's so many different ways of looking at color as well, especially when you work with it. In one sense, looking at it from an aesthetic point of view, like maybe also looking like a color interact, like from a brand point of view, it also comes in there, and it's also a very subjective color. So it can be very challenging in the conversation as well. It's a topic where you never stop, really. You don't stop learning, you don't stop being challenged, which is good. And it can be also very frustrating, of course.

Judith van Vliet: So when you talk about you went for, let's say, a smaller vision product, color vision, you went to a very big global vision, and also you went from, let's say, products, as in what I had understood a lot of consumer goods, yes, but also electronics. And now you're working for the sports performance. How is that difference, doing color? Is it different or what are different challenges?

Sara Forsmark: For example, in one sense, of course it's a little bit the same, but of course it's very different. I think the challenge is, especially from my perspective, thinking more global, is that, I mean, I don't work on products, I just need to make that clear. I don't do any product myself. There's so many different angles, like, we do performance, but then it's also lifestyle and everything we do needs to fit into that. There's a depth of color across ranges, collection across seasons and markets. So of course it's much, much bigger. If we work with consumer electronics, maybe it's a little bit more, in my opinion, maybe a little bit more limited. You do a few kind of headphones, a few like computers a year, and then you need to really nail it. You always need to nail it. But when you look for a bigger brand. It's like. It's so many. It's such a broader spectrum and of course. Apparently footwear and ancestors and everything around that. It's a little bit different and it really comes with other challenges.

Judith van Vliet: But it still needs to fix because it's a brand and there is a vision and you work on that color vision so you can't have accessories completely doing your own thing. And the other way around, I mean, it's one brand, so it all needs to look in the same language. And color is a language in the end.

Sara Forsmark: Absolutely. And I mean, it's always like, where do we need to sit? Where do things need to sit together? Or don't they? I mean, if you don't have everything look the same, I mean, that's impossible, right? But you just need to work together and it just needs to make sense together and I think that's really important and I think it's like especially, of course, it's a little bit more challenging when you look at it so broadly, is to have it and really come across as one brand. And there's always going to be a challenge because there's so many different people, so many different teams and so many different markets. So it's always a little bit of a challenge. It's really about holding what is it that really needs to hold it together. And of course, it's different things. Like, one thing is the bigger brand and one thing is for certain moments, certain cultural moment for the sports moment. I mean, I'm not part of everything this brand do, but some of it I am. And in one sense, the team I'm working, in some sense, anything that has to do with color comes through this team at some point. So we're very connected within the brand, for sure.

Judith van Vliet: That's good.

Sara Forsmark: Yeah.

Judith van Vliet: Because it must not be easy to maintain a global color vision and also, first of all, reaching a global color vision and then maintaining it. And indeed, like I said, there's always people there's a lot of opinion about color. We talked about being very color opinion before we started our talk. That's not easy when you work for a bigger brand, there's compromises to be made constantly.

Sara Forsmark: Absolutely, yes, it's a lot of opinions. But I also think I think it's also when you work for a big brand, like, we do a lot of creative work and we work a lot with insights as well and it's a lot of topics we cover. The one big topic is really also really supporting the teams. It's not that we give a vision handed over and then it's done. So we constantly have to work with the creative leaders and creative teams to make that fish and come to life, right. Where it needs to land. It's like really by focusing what do we want to own and land and where? And then we work with them to make that happen.

Judith van Vliet: How important are trends for the brand?

Sara Forsmark: I think trends kind of struggle a little bit with the world bird train sometimes directions. That's good direction, of course, for anyone. Things are shifting and changing always, right? And we need to be always aware of it. And we do a lot of insights. It's super important. I think they focus on insights and different types of insights. For us, we focus a lot on bigger macro shifts in changes and how that will impact us. It's fantastic working for big brands because there's a lot of teams doing a lot of stuff. So we have a team, culture size team that kind of bringing in the bigger macro perspective. But then we're also looking at what is shifting or changing aesthetically as well, who are the disruptors, what is driving change, but also what is shifting a change to winning sport in general. So it's really important to keep that in mind. But of course, it's also like if you really want to stand for something, you can't just jump on trends. Right, so you need to also integrate with the heritage of the brand. What do we want to stand for as a brand? What are we standing for as a brand already? So it's really like incorporating this kind of the bigger picture with our kind of the core of what we are, right? Yeah.

Judith van Vliet: You need to nitpick a little bit about what's happening generally and understand what will fit the Adidas big heritage brand and what just is better to just leave aside because it's not part of what you stand for.

Sara Forsmark: Yes, exactly. It's a lot of things to think of. It's really interesting and also, as I say, it's about since making and contextualize like the bigger things than what actually is relevant for us, what is relevant for us now, what could be relevant for us in the future. Right, so just looking at the bigger picture shifts we do know, COVID of course, impacted people. And there's a war, like how will that impact the planet? There's a lot of things that shifting and changing the people maybe don't think about it will influence color, but it does like a lot. Then there is this idea around close to market, right? So what is shifting? Change a little bit closer in time. And then maybe like sometimes maybe we do jump on certain things because it's kind of necessary to just keep in loop. But even like whatever trends we want to follow, it needs to real estate with the core of what we stand for and what we want to say.

Judith van Vliet: Messaging needs to be correct, at least.

Sara Forsmark: Absolutely.

Judith van Vliet: How important is because obviously we talk about color, we talk about creativity. But how important is science for color? And I know at the very base of color, color theory, color science, there is science. But generally, how do you, for example, in your work fuse the two, the scientific part and then the creative part when you build on your color visions?

Sara Forsmark: So one thing is very interesting working for performance brand. One thing that's really important is visibility. What does visibility mean and how do you create that? So sometimes it can be is it about the shade and is it about an application of a color? Is it about the proportion of color, for example? So those things are, like you say, the science. I think it's also about theory. Right? But also, if you think about it, like from perspective, if you look at the eye, certain colors, people we do know there are two cones on the eye, right, that kind of reads green. And that's why green is the most visible color for the human eye. But of course, if you look into the context of where the colour need to land, maybe green won't be like green on a football. Pitch for footwear might be a little bit of a challenge. That is something that we need to think about. But then it's also like this idea around science that you think about what can you actually do with color? Because we can talk about color as a singing glory, but it also needs to live with something. What color can we achieve on our materials? Especially for apparel? This is very much of an apparel topic. Not every color works with every material or material blends. So then we also need to be conscious of what can we actually create and what can we not create. For example, a lot of bright colors. The luminous colors work on polyester, but maybe not on cotton. Right? So this is also another side of the science of color that we really need to take into consideration when we create our palettes and select our shades. Yeah.

Judith van Vliet: And then we talked a couple of times about color in the past. I think we've known each other now for a couple of years. And especially that's difficulty for colors, for a global market. I think we all know, color psychology wise, blue is the most liked color. Yellow is the one that people just literally have greater difficulties incorporating. How do you do that for such a big brand, but also the multiple other brands that obviously are part of that big picture. I mean, it's tough job. You have a tough job.

Sara Forsmark: It's a challenge. It's a challenge, for sure. But it goes back to a little bit like one thing is what do we want to stand for and what do we think is important? So I think sometimes it's also like it goes back to the idea around trend. You can't place everything you need to consolidate what is really important. For us, of course, there are certain things. If we look at three big markets, like North America, Europe, and maybe Asia focused, like, maybe a little bit more. China is very different. Europe, now, I'm very generalizing here, so Europe maybe has a tendency to be a little bit more sophisticated. Like in North America, we know collegiate colors, especially for sport, is super important, right? In China, things are shifting and changing so rapidly. What is important, it's super hard to keep up. And if I talk to my colleagues on that side, they're like, we don't know, because what was six months ago is not the same thing. Now. They can be very different. And of course, then you have maybe, like, if you look at the neighbor country, like Japan, for example, is quite stable, what they kind of adhere to. I think it's also like this idea around what do people want? I mean, some cultures, for example, especially for women, and they don't want you to have color close to the body that may make them look more tan. So they want to look tan. I'm Swedish, Swedes like to look tanned, so they prefer maybe something like they can help them look tanned.

Judith van Vliet: Yeah, those are the Dutch, but the Japanese don't.

Sara Forsmark: So that is always a challenge. And for us, I think it's very much about having a spectrum of colors and providing a spectrum of color. We have great people and great teams of creatives and experts that can help guide and facilitate that to work and curate that into the market. It is a challenge, but I think it's also sometimes it becomes maybe more of a challenge when you're trying to solve everything yourself. And it's impossible to do that. I mean, I work in a very small team, and we all at the moment work in Germany. It's impossible for us to have the answers for everything. But it's also very interesting because you learn a lot and as we say, trends, especially the cultural trends, there might be things that are happening somewhere in one market that influence just that market, but not another market. It's a constant of learning and growing and looking at things from different perspectives. Yeah.

Judith van Vliet: I think that makes it interesting, and it makes it moving and flowing. And I personally love the whole cultural aspect of color. That's something that intrigues me immensely. Why certain colors? Yes. Why others not? I think that is amazing. And you get to have all that information because you work in such a global team. You also told me that you want to be a strong voice for color, and you are, obviously, because you're advocating color. What does that really entail for you, and how do you follow up on this? Let's say responsibility, but also great ambition.

Sara Forsmark: Yeah. I think if we look at we talked about it, if I talk about my journey, but with color, and a lot of people don't really they kind of, like, end up in color without, like it's just a process. Right. I would love more people to have an interest in color and really understand what they can do. Not, like, okay for people personally. But I think if you think it's from a perspective of business, I would love to see more designers wanting to go into color and understand it's actually really important job to do. Right. But also this big perspective, like, what color can do for a brand as well. I mean, it's no secret. Anyone who works for Merchandising knows that color is super important. This thing, like, when you say to anyone that you work with color, most people get a little bit like what you work with color. Yes, we can do that. I don't like to stay maybe too much, but color, to a certain degree is money, especially for brands. And I think it's much more important to really start looking at color from different perspectives, and I really would love to advocate for that. I also want to challenge some perceptions of color. I think one thing that's really important to me, this is a very classic myth that still, I know is shifting and changing, but still today, 2022 drives me crazy. And that's the classic blue is for boys and pink is for girls. Yeah. Now it's wrong to be a man, boy like blue woman, and girls who like pink. I mean, I'm wearing pink today. How can I as well start debunking these myths, these norms? I think today in 2022, people should be educated enough to know also people are much more fluid in that. So I think things like that is moved forward. But we're still having the conversation, right. It's just beyond me that this is happening. I think we need to just talk about color in a different way. As I said, just challenge people, what color could be.

Judith van Vliet: How do you think I'll work as color designers? Both being color designers, how do you think being color designer is different from a product design? Because I still feel that when you do product design or industrial design, colors not always taking into account straight away.

Sara Forsmark: It's not, and it's a big, big problem. I mean, I think color needs to be part of the process from the beginning. I do think if you want to be a good product designer, you need to know a little bit about color. You don't need to know all the technicalities all the time. Maybe. But I think you need to understand that when you create something that's going to be let's say footwear is a very good example, you do a piece of footwear, and then you're going to have different ten different color ways or something. But there's nowhere to attach color to what you do. How can you do it? One color pencil and maybe another upper? I think, like, product designers should have an understanding and really incorporated. Like, where do you block and what do you not block? I do think from a color perspective, I think quality designers also need to understand product. I think any designer need to know the material they're working with and know what you can achieve and not can achieve and understand the limitations of that. Of course, the roles are different, but at the same time, they do sit together, and I think that's where they need to kind of merge a little bit more. I think it's about collaboration. I don't think everyone needs to be an expert on everything, but I do think it's very much about how people work together to make anything come to life.

Judith van Vliet: Yeah, true. Very often there is this gap between, oh, I love these colors. Can we incorporate those? And then on the given material that just sometimes is just literally impossible? I mean, I've had people come to me with colors, and then they tell me what their product they're having or what majority working. I'm like, how am I going to explain this?

Sara Forsmark: No, you can't do that. I don't know. I think it's like if you want to be an expert in any job, you need to know what will influence that job. Maybe product designer, you need to understand what will influence that product. And if you are college designer, you need to understand what will influence a product, but also what will influence that product in different contexts. And I think that's where we're missing sometimes. Not everyone can be a color expert. Actually, color is really challenging, and to be a really good color designer, you really need to work on it. I think a lot of people think, I like mixing colors, I like mixing colors, or I like coloring up stuff so I can do this. And yes, they can, but you also need to look at it in a bigger perspective.

Judith van Vliet: I think generally, we both agree on we'd like to see more people working in color. Generally, I think there's a great need. There's a lot of information misinformation. I mean, it's not just about what the west thinks about the blues and the pinks for boys and girls. There's a lot of misinformation about color in general also within the design world. So there's a lot of what you say debunking to be done, and it would be great to get more people into color. And it's true that when you tell me, like, oh, when I tell people I work in color, I still get the same face still each and every day. They're like, how can you just work with one topic? And then when I explain what the topic entails, they'd be like, okay, it is.

Sara Forsmark: I mean, I think it's also, like, what the quality designers do, and of course, it's different for different teams, but if I look at my job, what I do, and I've touched a little bit on that before, it's so much. Anyone can pick a color. Anyone can put five colors together and call it a palette if they want to. They can think they can do it, so it's happening, but there's so much more. And if I think, for me, working on a bigger perspective for a brand, for example, it's so much more. We talked about insight. How do you take those insights, and what does it mean for heat? What does it mean palette? What does it mean for product? How can we challenge expression of color? Because, like, in the end of the day, the color wheel is quite limited. It's, like, thousands of views. If you're smart about color, you can have one color over and over again. Where do you put it, and how do you show that expression? You can explore this, but how do you get other people to understand what you want to say? So it's also this thing, but how do you visualize color? Where does it go? It's not the fact of making pretty mood boards. Definitely not in my industry, you need to understand make it relevant for the brand within the context you want to say, like, in the combination with an expression. Maybe it's a pattern in print, it's engineered and footwear versus apparel. And then it's very much about curating and curating and curating and storytelling. I mean, storytelling is a big, big part of the job we do, and of course, it's part of any design job. But I do feel sometimes the role of color and color design incorporates so many different things that many people, they just don't understand. I don't understand everything everywhere. I know my industry, and I have experience from another industry, but then it's a whole different world of colors that I am not an expert on the painting industry for interior design. Like, I have a friend who's renovating her flat, and she always asks me questions, and I was like, I don't know. I don't know. This is what I think you can keep on learning. There's so many areas of it. Or like a classic question is also what will be the trendiest color next year? And I was like what do you want me to say?

Judith van Vliet: I can tell you yellow, but I'm not sure if yellow is going to fit you. There's so much behind it. And I think right now color is a hot topic. Everybody's jumping onto it and you just already mentioned a little bit what maybe is materialisation of color, the whole application, how the storytelling I think that is where if you're not good at what you're doing and you're not truly understanding color, that's where it gets difficult.

Sara Forsmark: Absolutely. I mean, with us materials, the color really exists. Sometimes you need something to deer it to right or a shape in a form and a television and I think you need to really understand that and it is so complex. I also know I have had a naive approach. We all have been there at some point in our career and then it's like what can you say? What can you really do? And I think with certain things it's like if you talk about recycling something, maybe you need to rethink what color would mean for a recycled product. If you start to think in a recycled there was this period when everything had this kind of recycled look, for example. And you need to because it was trendy to change that. I think it's also like we will change your color. You can't expect to have a recycle something, but then you want to have it in so many different colors because that might not be possible. Another thing is also we need to understand that colors are perceived differently depending on texture. Is a matte? Is it shiny? And things like that. I think you can do so many beautiful things with one color. You just need to materialize it. You can have the same color across so many different things, but it can look so different. I think you really need to understand that.

Judith van Vliet: Yes, it's a dynamic topic, it's a dynamic product and you can make it work at your best in any given product. In our past conversations we also talked about the importance of playing up color which is I think it's really what we're talking about a little bit. But also when it comes to pattern and print, it's graphics, pattern prints. It's also not a new way of doing color, but it's definitely up and running. Can you talk a little bit about how you are working within this field and how you're connecting those worlds?

Sara Forsmark: I think when it comes to pattern print graphics, I think you need to look at it as a whole with where it goes on and what it sits with pattern and print. For example, if I speak about parallel, because it's quite a popular topic around the parallel, it's very much about you can really de-dimensiolize also one another thing that's actually. Adding extra layer, right? But you can really dimensionalise, and you can really play a color in a certain way that maybe you can't do within a material. You can also add, like, it was so interesting with expression, but I think you can layer colors. It's different. How do you print it? Well, pattern prints and graphics is super important for color, right. Detach that from anything else to do with color. Right. So it's the same thing like, we talked about product designers with a difference, and you forget that you need to maybe you need to also be graphics. You need to have color in consideration from the beginning. Honestly, it's just the same thing. And just be aware, like, how graphics and pattern print can really help to enhance the products, but it can also absolutely kill it. So if you don't do it right. And I think something I think is interesting with passing a print and all these things is like, don't add things when you don't have to add it either. I think sometimes we especially for me, this is my opinion, but sometimes I feel like designers have a tendency to add stuff because they like it, but it doesn't make sense of what they're creating it for. Right.

Judith van Vliet: Simplicity.

Sara Forsmark: I think it's about simplicity. I mean, you can have complexity within simplicity, right? But as I say, it is a hot topic. But also we see more pattern imprint coming out now, like, on the market. So if you talk about trends, that definitely something we see.

Judith van Vliet: What trends are you seeing within print and pattern? Like, what type of directions do you think are really interesting right now?

Sara Forsmark: If I talk about it from a color perspective, I think it's not so much solid pieces will always be there, right. But I do see boldness in big prints, small print, multi-colored, bright tone down. Color is really mixed. I just think it's like this kind of very joyous and happy, and I think I love it. One thing I think we can talk about pattern prints, but it's also about color blocking. We see a lot of color blocks. It's not about how you block always. It's also how you block what colors and textures. As I said before, you can block textures and color. And I think it's just becoming a little bit more of it. I think there was a time a couple of years ago, maybe, before it was quite the company's, little bit dull, I would say. And I feel like now there's so much happened in the last couple of years, and I think that people get much more expressive. And we can see that the pattern of print becoming more expressive. Just place graphics is becoming more expressive. I always admire really good graphic designers. Anyone is a good graphic designer. A good graphic designer. If anyone knows color, a good graphic designer will know color, right, within their expertise. And it can really help and enhance whatever they are doing. I think like going back, I think exactly designer should be a quality designer equally as much.

Judith van Vliet: So earlier you talked about recyclability and color. How do you think color can actually reduce this whole environmental impact that we're having on our planet? How do you think color can instead of taking color off, which very often also happens, can color actually help?

Sara Forsmark: Well, you just mentioned it. In one sense it's not rocket science, right? We do know less consumption, less production, better for the planet. The same with color. If you don't color anything, it's better for the planet. You know, anything you add will add a process but of course there's different ways of doing that. So what methods are you using? Like are you using you can use waterless methods. What chemicals are you using or can you improve your direction? Can we recycle something? Can you create this? We talk about a lot of circle or loops like what do we bring back and what do we iterate on? And if you want to have cold products, it always going to be an added process like pattern and print. Just an add in process, right? So if you want to be super sustainable, you don't really have anything. But that would be very bland and boring world we would be living in. So I think technology is so fantastic. I think we'll see many more technologies coming up. I am hopeful that there will be possibilities to do things better. I think sometimes maybe it's not about excluding but how do we do things just better? And I think it's also like when it comes to sustainability in color and I think there's a lot of misunderstandings there of what makes the color sustainable, what kind of shades are more sustainable. There was this time that it's not sustainable if it looks bright, but actually today you can do  bright colors using the dye. Stuff has changed, right? So it is different. And sometimes actually a gray can be worse than a bright color because depending on what you use to dye something so it is so complex. This world is the beast. Thank God. I have heard people in our team who are focusing on this I don't need to do it. You can inform you today you can't do anything. I think you shouldn't be doing the fine if you don't consider sustainability as an ingredient of what you're creating. The future will look different. We need to do different. We need to take responsibility. I mean we can talk about like government taking responsibilities, brand, but as the designers of people we just all need to take responsibility moving forward.

Judith van Vliet: Is there such a thing as longevity colors for products? Do you think there are certain colors within your world? Of course that maybe people will enjoy for a longer time so at least they won't trash them or they'll keep using them.

Sara Forsmark: Yeah, for sure. I mean, there's certain colors that always stand the time, right? We talked about blues, certain things. Like this one thing to talk about timelessness of color, black and white, you're always going to live there somehow, thinking about those colors that can live in a wardrobe or live with you for longer. And like you can keep on pairing the new things. When you buy new things, you can keep on pairing them. I think that's one thing. I'm looking at longevity. I also think this is very much my own opinion. I think also people need to buy what they really like. I think if you really just buy things you like you do have people have a tendency to keep them no matter. I think sometimes when we talk about timelessness or like longevity, people are tend to say to talk about simplicity and minimalistic. And I don't think that's always the case. Right.

Judith van Vliet: The stuff that I have in my wardrobe for the longest period of time is all very expressive in color. The black and white, maybe it will remain. But what really because I think it's the pieces that I just like you said, it's the pieces that I bought because I really like them.

Sara Forsmark: Same for me. I think it's in my basement that I can't get rid of because maybe one day I will have that. I mean, people shop differently, right? So I can't speak for everyone, but I think I do believe when you really like something, you will keep it. Maybe you repair it and you fix it. 50% of my wardrobe is black, and I can tell you that's the one I iterate the most.

Judith van Vliet: Then you wear colored sneakers, you told me, or colored socks, right?

Sara Forsmark: Yeah. For me, I always wear something with color. I can't go out without something of color. All black, and we're wearing all black. But something needs to be color.

Judith van Vliet: An important topic besides the sustainability is inclusivity. And I think especially the fashion world, but even more so, the sports performance world and apparel is really pushing it a lot more than any other market. How do you think color can play an important role for inclusion?

Sara Forsmark: This is a million dollar answer. It's really, again, just super challenging. I think you can't talk about inclusivity without talking about the opposite. When you exclude. I do think one thing about we mentioned it's kind of separated by gender in one sense to be talking about inclusivity also we need to understand, like, okay, it's also about diversity. Right. Not everyone wants to look the same. I think it's more about what you offer and where you offer. It should kind of allow people to pick and choose. And it's a little bit sometimes maybe it's a very extreme way you're looking at it. It's like you're doing inclusive sizing from extra small to extra large. Could you offer three different colored versions depending on your size? I mean, that would not be inclusive for color either, right? So you need to be able to offer the same thing for everyone. And I think it's also like this to be inclusive, I think we need to think about how do we allow people to bring on their own staff expression? So I think that's the big part. I find it very challenging with this exclusive topic. In relation to color, I think there's so much things inclusivity is fantastic. We need to think about it and we need to do it. But when it comes to color, I do think it's quite challenging. And I think sometimes we need to look at people as a broader spectrum.

Judith van Vliet: In that sense, I think color per se, it can do a lot more than that. Maybe it's currently doing it can help people, it can create better communities, it can create an improved wellness well being. So I personally, I've had many talks with obviously so many interesting guests. But I do think that that is a direction. Sustainability is already part of it. Inclusivity is starting. But there's so much more that color can do. What does color for you personally do? What emotions does it bring to you?

Sara Forsmark: Big question. It just brings joy and happiness, I think. Sometimes when I look at color, when I think about color, color is really much of a self expression, as I say, what you wear, how is your house and everything like that. But I do think that color, for me, I think there's two things that really it's like about beauty, right? I said about beauty. When I really like something, it's like this moment when everything stops. When you see something beautiful, it's like the moment when everything stops. It's a little bit like when you fall in love and you can only see the person you're in love with because nothing else matters, right? For me, it's a little bit the same thing. Like when I look at something that's beautiful the same time, it can also be the complete opposite. It's like when you're walking in nature and you see beautiful pink sky that also open up the world and you see the world so much bigger. And I think it's this moment, how it creates that emotion of being in the moment actually just a small piece of this big planet we're living on. So I think for me, it just absorbs my energy and I feel like in a good way, in a good way, like, feels very grounded. I think that's like the grounded the energy of feeling grounded. Color really can help me to do that and also make the joy. It can often make me happy to raise like anyone else.

Judith van Vliet: That's not a little thing. That's a big thing. You know, if anything was possible today, what would you be? What would you be doing?

Sara Forsmark: I don't want to sound like, really boring now, but I would probably do what I do. I just love working with color and I would love to explore it much further for me in the future. Of course. I would love to explore other industries, for sure. I think this is a question you need to kick out.

Judith van Vliet: Or maybe keep in because this is going to make people realize how joyful it is to work with color.

Sara Forsmark: Yeah, it's very true.

Judith van Vliet: If we both would never change, because that is also my opinion. I mean, what better business card is that to those who are now in school or deciding what is their future direction?

Sara Forsmark: I would love to get into the areas. Maybe I want to understand Merchandising a little bit more. There are certain areas and I find it like brand design is super interesting when you start thinking of color in those kind of contexts. I think that is something I would want to dig deeper into. I just want to expand on my knowledge and then to do that, you need to explore different areas and you need to kind of move forward. If you really want to know what I want to do, I want to be by the beach and have a pina colda. I don't drink a pina colada. Just a cold beer is fine.

Judith van Vliet: Sounds like a good plan. And now that spring is coming, I think everybody wants to be doing that. But yeah, no, this was a great conversation, Sarah. I'm so thankful for talking to you on this Friday morning and thank you for being part of the Color Authority.

Sara Forsmark: Well, thank you for having me. It's a pleasure.

Judith van Vliet: Thank you everyone for listening to my episode with Sarah Forsmark from Adidas. I hope you enjoyed the conversation. If you haven't done so, please go to Apple podcast and Spotify and rate and review the show. I would be thankful for that. Now, my next episode is going to be with Anat Lechner and she's from HueData. She's going to talk about how you can rationalize your caller choices through data and statistics. Exciting episode coming up. So see you back then and have a great rest of your day.