S6E06 Decolonization of Color with Mohamad Baitie

In this very frank and open conversation Mohamad Baitie talks about how color reflects cultural heritage, the decolonization of design, and the desire to be seen. This podcast is a look into Middle Eastern aesthetics challenging Western norms and reclaiming visual identity. 

With a master’s Degree in interior architecture, Mohamad Baitie has an expansive knowledge of color, color forecasting, color design and architectural coatings. Mohamad was born in Lebanon and grew up in Accra, Ghana, constantly moving with the family and being exposed to different cultures. His first encounter with color came through a dual interaction, Smarties and Lego. He was constantly amazed by how color shapes objects and defines the way we interact with them. Architecture was his obvious choice, where color, light and shadow are intertwined.

Today, with over 22 years of experience in marketing and communication in the paint industry, working for one of the top multinational paint brands as Business Development Director, GLC Paints. He has led the brand identity transformation of GLC Paints and is thoroughly involved in product research and development within the organization. He also took the role of professor of Color at the American University of Cairo, teaching color theory, color practice and color psychology. As part of the CMG organization, through GLC Paints, he attends the yearly global summit on color forecasting and does his own color talks and color workshops within the MENA region.

Transcript

Mohamad Baitie: Foreign.

Judith van Vliet: Welcome back to the Color Authority podcast. Today I'm going to be talking to a very dear friend of mine. His name is Mohamad Baitie and he has a master's degree in interior architecture. But he has yet an expansive knowledge of color, color forecasting, design and architectural coatings. Mohammed was born in Lebanon, but grew up in Accra, Ghana. And he was constantly moving with his family and being exposed to different cultures. His first encounter with color came through a dual interaction with Smarties and Lego. He was constantly amazed by how color shapes objects and defines the way we interact with them. Architecture thus was his obvious choice where color, light and shadow are intertwined. Today, with over 22 years of experience in marketing communication in the paint industry, he is working for one of the top multinational paint brands as business developer director at GLC Paints. He also took the role of professor of Color at the American University of Cairo, teaching color theory, color practice and color psychology. Let's go and see what Mohammed's view on color is today. Good afternoon. Because it's already afternoon, I think, right in Cairo. Mohammed, I'm so happy that we finally got this chance to speak on the podcast.

Mohamad Baitie: Well, the pleasure is all mine. A bit nervous that I'm being, I mean, interviewed by the color lady herself, the world famous Judith van Vliet. It is the afternoon and it's my pleasure. Yes. It's been a year and a half and the talks and finally it's happening.

Judith van Vliet: I think actually we started this conversation that I wanted to interview when we were in the United States at the Color Marketing Group. We were at dinner and now I'm just thinking it was in Tucson, I think Tucson, Arizona. So that's a longer time ago. It's not even a year and a half.

Mohamad Baitie: Yeah, years ago. Because it was November 2022 probably.

Judith van Vliet: Yeah, it was my last one for the, for the summit. Oh yeah, it was a good event. Yeah, we had a good time event.

Mohamad Baitie: And I love the party you curated with the retrograde chic. A lot of glitter. You were wearing a green glitter dress.

Judith van Vliet: Yes. If people are curious, there's pictures on our social media of us together in. With our clothes of the. Of the 60th anniversary. Indeed. Yes. No, well, we've met. I don't even remember when we met last time, but I think the last time we met, obviously in, in Milan, but we met for the first time in London at Mix magazine. I think that was the first. We met many years ago already.

Mohamad Baitie: I think it was either 2007 or 2008.

Judith van Vliet: Yeah, yeah.

Mohamad Baitie: Yes. We were so teenagers at that time, that. Oh, my God, now that you say it, it's like 18 years ago.

Judith van Vliet: Yeah, I remember they were having difficulties. You know, we were just all over the place with the colors and the trends, and I remember we were having so much fun. People having difficulties moderating the discussions. Yeah, I remember.

Mohamad Baitie: But I remember they were super interesting. And I think that this, this mix magazine now developed to become evolved, to become a color hive, right? Yep, yep. And I think they're doing some fantastic reports.

Judith van Vliet: Yep. Yeah, they certainly do. They're. They're, I think here in Europe, definitely. Also at the global level. They, they still do amazing, amazing work. Happy to have gone and happy to have met you and to have you on the podcast. I have the same question to everybody. And I know you've, you've listened to the podcast. I know your students listen podcast. So obviously I'm very curious to hear your answer to what is color for you?

Mohamad Baitie: Color for me is light. Every time you ask this question to one of your invitees, I'm always curious to hear what they have to say. But color for me is light. It's what makes me get out of bed, open the curtains, I want to see the sky, I want to see the trees, I want to see the sand. But color is light. It's what gets me up in the morning and moving every day. Because without color, I don't believe that I can define shapes. That's me personally. So color defines form for Muhammad Beatty, and color for me is light. The source of everything.

Judith van Vliet: Yeah, the source of everything. Beautiful.

Mohamad Baitie: Yeah.

Judith van Vliet: Your first color memory, which is a question that I also did on a different podcast where I was hosting, which I think is an interesting question, like, what is your first color memory? A lot of people have to think about it. Some they just know it. And you said that you were fascinated by color, by your Smarties and Lego. I mean, tell us about that. What happened in your imagination when you saw, obviously toys, but also, you know, candy.

Mohamad Baitie: You know, I was, I was, I was born and raised in a crying Ghana. And we. Packaging design was not something very big at that point in time. So my dad used to be very fervent traveler. He traveled extensively and every time he used to go to London and come back from the duty free or wherever, he used to get Smarties with him. And Smarties had these hexagonal shape packaging with the Alphabet letters on them. And every time the COVID changes color, the. But for me, really it wasn't. I loved the packaging, I loved collecting the Alphabet. But My biggest pleasure in life was opening it up and then taking out all the little candies and then segregating the colors and then really eating them one color by one. And for me, it was such a pleasure, such a thing, that even when my, always, when my dad used to come home, I'm like, where are the Smarties? Because this is the first thing I was asking for. And LEGO specifically, you know, and I mean, I had Legos in the, in the early 80s, so they were in their, their phase of the 16 colors. They weren't as many colors as now, but, you know, when you felt comfortable, when, when, when you snuggle into bed or, or when you sit next to your mom, or when someone, you're, you're stressed or you're upset or you're afraid from the world, someone hugs you and gives you warmth. LEGO was really my comfort zone. And the colors of Lego, I couldn't explain why they made me feel so comfortable. So I always was fascinated by, is there something chemical when I touch them that they make me feel? But it was always about the color, specifically red and yellow, but it was always about the color. And I was like, it's fascinating how you can separate, identify whatever you are building by color. So I'm going to build the small hallway in yellow, I'm going to build this square room in red, I'm going to do my garden in green, and then I'm going to put my trees, et cetera. So for me, it defined the space. Maybe it was me, I don't know. I think that all of us as creatives have sort of an ADHD somehow, but really I probably have it because I need to do a lot of things at the same time and I want to control everything. LEGO calmed me, and LEGO was for me, the colors of LEGO helped me relax and not move a lot. So they sort of held me together and this is why I was so fascinated by them.

Judith van Vliet: Yeah. I think LEGO in general is also a way to use your fantasy, your mind, and obviously all your ideas and being able to make them. It's an easy way to construct something even if you're not a great designer or you cannot draw very well. This is a way to construct things. Which smarties did you start eating and which ones were the last ones you eat? Because do you use the preference like, I'll eat Well, a lot of people do. They wait with the thing that they like best to eat that last?

Mohamad Baitie: I, I always, always started with the purples. I think it was lilac, not purples. But the purples and the last ones I ate were the yellows.

Judith van Vliet: Yeah. So your favorite is yellow? Yeah.

Mohamad Baitie: Smarties. Because I grew up loving yellow, fascinated, obsessed by the color yellow. And then suddenly I'm not sure what happened. And there was a shift in my color preference. I still like yellow a lot, but now blue is my all time favorite color. I identify as blue, but I grew up all my life as yellow and I'm still so much attracted to yellow that I. It's like some a color is calling you. I know that your color is yellow.

Judith van Vliet: My color is yellow. Yeah. My color is born as a yellow person and my color is yellow. But currently I'm very much into green and orange. I think we have phases in our lives whether there were good moments, bad moments, where we just grow with color and we outgrow color at the same time. When I was much younger, I used to wear a lot of brown. Now, well, just the idea of wearing brown, it just like, it literally almost stresses me. So like it's. It's weird. We just, I think we flow as human beings and the color flows with us.

Mohamad Baitie: And this is what trends are all about, right?

Judith van Vliet: Yeah, but I think it's more about personal, what you're going through in your life and what color fits with that and what doesn't. I've been moving a lot. Brown is a color that stabilizes, that's. It's rooting. And I haven't been rooting in a while, so. Yeah, not helpful.

Mohamad Baitie: I've always associated the cut, you know, because I used to travel extensively. I love supermarkets. I love supermarkets. And everyone tells me, why are you fascinated by supermarkets? I tell them because when I go into a supermarket, it gives me the feeling of people who have a home, they go there every day, they get their food, they cook, they prepare it. So for me, it's people going home. And because I travel extensively, supermarket grounds me and I like to go into supermarkets. And I've always associated the color brown with supermarkets.

Judith van Vliet: Yeah, it's a lot of. At least it's obviously organic cacao, coffee, you know, all these, which are comfort foods as well, you know, not only.

Mohamad Baitie: About the food, it's about the grounding. What you said is extremely correct and to the point. It's a grounding color and it's American fashion. So I see a lot of it. Although Chartres is taking us by Storma.

Judith van Vliet: Yeah, it is. And the Burgundies. And there was a lot of caramel fudge in Milan. So it's interesting how. But still it's family of the brown. So it's all connected, I guess.

Mohamad Baitie: Yeah, that's great.

Judith van Vliet: You've traveled so much. Indeed. But I mean, you just already started as a child, you know, being born in one country, I mean you've, you've lived in, you now you live in Cairo obviously, but you've lived through so many places. How has this, how has this influenced your professional career? I mean I, I met you when you were living in Bahrain, still now you're in Egypt. You've lived for a short period of time in Saudi Arabia. You're obviously between Accra and then obviously Lebanon. I mean, how has this developed you as a professional color person? How has it influenced your life, your career?

Mohamad Baitie: It made me very, very open to receiving and accepting the fact that on a color basis there isn't an ugly color. It all depends. Where do you put this color, where, with what do you mix it and where does it come from? Growing up in Accra, I mean, Ghana is one of the most beautiful greenery. It's so lush. You put a rock on the street, the next day there's a small plant on it. So it's so green. The sea was never so blue because it was the ocean. We were very close to the sea where I live. But everything is very green. But what people wear was magnificent. I mean the kente cloths, the colors, people are so, so, so brightly dressed. Even when they wear white. There's always trim, there's always a pattern, there's always color there. So I was bombarded by color and they were the color of the fruits as well. But if you took the kente cloth and you take it, took it to Lebanon and wore it in the street, people will start staring at you because it was, it's, it's like, it's, it's, it's out of context and is as if it's exotic, but it's the day to day of, of Accra. Traveling, living in between all these places made me first of all acknowledge the fact that color is born out of context and you cannot take color out of context. And then when I started teaching and you start learning about the syllabuses and the curriculums of Joseph Albers or Ettens and always tells you color cannot be dissociated from what you see around it. You have to see it next to something. You have to, so that you give it, so that you give it context. It made me just very open, very accepting of, of, of, of everything. And then obviously, I mean if you, if you look at the. The Valentino Couture 2322, when Pierpaolo Piccioli was there. And you see how he mixed colors. You would never in your life imagine that. How did he put this lilac with this brown, with this green? I mean, really, I teach it at university now. It's like, okay, people, listen. If you colors have weights, if you use them in the right weight, if you use them the right place, and if you know how to combine the amount of blackness in the color of how much black, black there is in the color, you can have a magnificent color scheme. So traveling, going worldwide made me accept first observe and then made me much more open at reading people. I. I learned a lot, and I still learned a lot, A lot. But I have to admit that Africa played a very big role in, in my being fascinated with color. I mean, these people moving, because, you know, they. If a family is moving with all their kind of kente cloth, and then the mother and the father are wearing different patterns, and then the children are wearing different patterns, for me, it was. It was really, really magnificent. In Lebanon, we tend to be much more Westernized, I think, and, and what we wear in the apparel and the dresses, so it might be very sober, There might be some patterns. But Africa is what really made me fall in love with. With colors.

Judith van Vliet: Yeah, yeah, Africa. Every time I go, I'm just. And it's right what you say about context. Last time I didn't even buy anything because I knew it would not fit in my home. It would not fit perhaps in my closet, because it's just out of, out of context. It looks amazing when you are in Tanker or Marrakech or when the times I travel to South Africa, it just, you know, it won't match. It won't match what you have. And that's why maybe that's good. Maybe it's beautiful that those colors, those patterns can only live in that particular place. And that's why you have to visit it.

Mohamad Baitie: Yes, you have to visit. But as well, we are seeing. I think I'm a big believer of open borders. I'm a big believer that we're citizens. I mean, Dr. Bayashab, my friend who founded the design department at the UC said, We are meta citizens. We are citizens of, global citizens of the world. It's not about passport, nationality. You see things everywhere. But as well, with everything that's happening in the world, you question if I'm a Middle Eastern person, if I wear these African patterns and wear them, will I be pointed at as appropriating? Culture. Am I doing the right thing or not? I never used to ask this question because I know my intentions. I know that I'm wearing it out of pure love and, yeah, pure desire to wear this. But, but with what's happening in the world, you start questioning what to do, how to do. I wish we go to sim. Back to simpler times.

Judith van Vliet: Yep, I wish that too. Yeah, I think polarization and the finger pointing, it's just not helpful.

Mohamad Baitie: Yeah, no, no, I agree.

Judith van Vliet: But then again, I'm a white privileged lady, so I'm the last in the line to, you know, to be able to take part in this discussion. And that's, I mean, and I think that's why it is tricky out there with everything that comes forward from love. And I think color is love. I think then that is always a positive, positive movement. Always.

Mohamad Baitie: I agree. But you are a very intellectual and you're a person who doesn't do things without thinking them thoroughly and without researching them. And I think that because of your position as a global trend forecaster, you know a lot about cultures and I mean, you are born Dutch. I mean, it's not your mistake and it's not a mistake. It's a wonderful, wonderful thing. But I believe that you're a person who's so open. I mean, my friends in Cairo, they just adore Judith and what you say and they're like, we like people who know what's happening in this part of the world. We had the Getty Image director, I think, or creative director or something at Cairo Photo Week last week and she was talking, talking about. Not sure if this is something, you can cut it off later on, but she was talking about fake image and images in AI. She was in Cairo and the only fake image she found to talk about was a fake image of a father holding his children out of the rebels in Gaza. It is a fake image 100%, but with all the sentiments, with everything that is happening around us. Really. This was the only image you want to show as fake? It is fake. I agree with you. But is it really the only one? You could say that this is fake in this context. It really bothers me when, when, when people do not understand what's happening around them and they cannot read the room.

Judith van Vliet: Oh, especially in Cairo and in Egypt in general. I mean. Yeah, that means you haven't read any newspaper at all.

Mohamad Baitie: At all. At all. Sorry. But, but really, sometimes it really bothers me. And, and, and it goes back to color as well. I mean, if you don't understand Color. If you don't understand meaning of color, you can be very offensive to someone in China or to someone in the Middle east or to someone in Latin America. It all depends. You need to research the culture because everything, if you're going there, you have to understand it and you have to respect it, no matter what you, your beliefs are. Because it's a decision that you made to go and visit this country and talk in this country.

Judith van Vliet: Absolutely, yeah. And I think the regional cultures and influences of so many regions in which we work, but especially the MENA region, I think it is, it's an interesting region that is growing. It's growing. I mean, Cairo Design Week again, being on the agenda of so many more people than it was last year. I'm hoping to join you guys. How is this influencing, in your opinion, what's happening in the world on the design level, perhaps on the color level, trend level as well?

Mohamad Baitie: I was asked this question last week in a talk, and I said that in Egypt, in Lebanon, in our part of the world, we tend to follow what's happening globally. We still not have our own color trend. Maybe I'm one of very few people in this part of the world who participate in CNG, who participate in Color4casting, Etc. I think we need more and I think that the next step is maybe we need to start doing our own chromosome in this part of. Of the world and see what's happening. Because Africa, Middle East. Bahia doesn't like me using the word Middle East. She. She wants me to use Swana. Southwest Asia and North Africa complicate life.

Judith van Vliet: No, we finally have the Bina and the Emiya and.

Mohamad Baitie: Yeah, but I think that the Arab world, North Africa, Africa in general, I think we are very much affected by what's happening in the West. I mean, there's the luxury brands. It's a big advertising machine. Everyone is fascinated by this lifestyle. Everyone wants to wear, everyone wants to look alike. So whatever's happening on the global level tends to reflect a lot on what's happening here. Things start in Milan and then you start seeing them in and Egypt. Although we have some fascinating designers, we have some amazing people who, I mean, Shrikara Rabli is one. As an Egyptian designer, when I saw her works last week, I'm gonna send you pictures because really the way she uses color and they're all very, very relevant. I mean, you feel that they just came fresh out of south of Egypt and the way she mixes ochre with blue and everything is literally coming out of a bright, beautiful village in Egypt. And I'm like, fascinated by her use of color. Some people with the complete abstract, Fayed and Malak Rashad. There are two Egyptian architects as well who are minimalists and. But they always try to infuse a little bit of green because they see it and in the trees, they don't see any other color because, as you know, you've been to Egypt, it's a very off white, grayish. If you want a color scheme, what happens in the world is reflected here. We do not have trends that we take out yet, but I believe that there's a lot of place, as you said, we're growing. There's a lot of place for growth. And maybe Cairo Design Week, I hope that you can join us. Inshallah, you will come. I think we can start maybe with Cairo Design Week, starting our own color forecasting for this part of the world. And then it can influence. Because a lot of the finances of what's happening in the world is coming out of the Gulf region. And I think we deserve to have a place and have a voice when it comes to color in the world.

Judith van Vliet: Yeah, no, I think it's a region generally that is growing. I mean, even if we just look at Dubai, Design district, Cairo again, happening, the conferences that are happening and happening all over the time, especially in hospitality and retail, there's a lot of conferences. So it's, it's almost strange that there's not a particular entity that just comes forward with what is, you know, the, the color forecast or what is happening generally in a region. Just even if it's just a report.

Mohamad Baitie: You know, I, I mean, I started writing a little bit of things on this because, you know, that I'm trying to. And in my color research, there isn't any Middle Eastern, Arab, North African report on color. There isn't any proper documentation on color. And I use the term decolonizing color because everything comes from the West. But I think we have our own perception. I have my own perception of color and of what's happening in the world, of the color scheme. If you look at the Arab painters as well in Egypt, in Lebanon and all the Levante area and North Africa, we have a fantastic color scheme. We have a lot to say about where our colors come from. Because if you go back to trace color history, old Egyptians, what they did with the. They were the first people to ever invent a chemical pigment for, for. For the Egyptian, Egyptian blue. So I believe that we, we. We deserve to have our own voice. I believe that we should. And we need to claim it. And this is what Bahia, my friend, is pushing me to do. Hopefully, I'll have you know, it takes a lot of time to research and between work and between teaching and talks and everything that's happening. But I promise I'm gonna take my time and do it, because we can influence the world, and we have a beautiful scheme coming out of this part of the world.

Judith van Vliet: Yeah, I think I saw one of the books because, you know, you work a lot with your students, you have many jobs. I mean, you do many things. You have many projects, like, I mean, we could do just a separate podcast on every other thing that you do. But I think I saw the book that you're doing with. With your students, and I think what hit me really was, I think generally what we're seeing, there's a decolonization generally happening. And I think it's super, super important. And it's not going to be in one year. It's going to be the next decades that this is happening. But it's interesting that this is something that is coming forward from your students and you work with them even more. Particularly you're working with that at the American University of Caio. I think it's a very interesting mix, and I think there is a lot more acceptance, and I think that's why what you're doing is so innovative, particularly because it's in this region. So tell us a little bit about this project, how color colonization, what it is, Because I'm thinking now a lot of people are going like, they what?

Mohamad Baitie: Well, the thing is, as. As I said, everything that. That happened here, everything that we read, all our references are translated from English, or they are in English, because I teach at the American University in Cairo. But if we dig a little bit back in history, you see that. I mean, Bahia told me something very interesting. She said, the entire world learns English now because English is the color of research, and it's the language of research and the language of science. But back in the 13th century, everyone was learning Arabic because Arabic was the language of science and Arabic was the language of research, because it used to come from here. What I do with my students is I ask them to research color, and I ask them to research the cultural background of color. What does it mean? And I ask them to write a small manifesto about what this color that they are, because they have the full freedom to research the color that they want. Of course, there's. There's a list that I want them to cover. But if you go amongst all the students, you'll find all the colors that you want to, including neon colors. I mean, I was like, really? You can research neon colors? And it was magnificent how they did and how they found references in Old Egypt, like bright, shiny color and the gloss they used to use as varnishes to keep it glossy. It's interesting because there's a will to prove themselves, a will to say that, okay, not everything comes from the West. There's a lot that comes from the East. There's a lot that we started. And they take so much pride in discovering this. The American university has a liberal, is a liberal university. So it's a liberal educational system. You can say, you can do, you can think however you want. You're not judged, you're only graded, judged on the outcome of your work, of the quality of the work. And I believe that this is the beauty of, of science. We can believe no one holds the absolute truth. Everyone should be open to the other person, a person. And if everyone went with this mentality, I think we will have much less wars in the world because no one holds up to no religion, no science, no country, no nationality holds the absolute truth. I think Earth belongs to all of us. But back to research and students. I teach color I It's color theory, color psychology, color and color in practice and above all, color connections and color and culture. And this is what they have to dig into. I want them to see how this color started, how does it affect this culture and how does it. Is it translated in every other culture? And then of course, it's super celebrated by everyone. We print a sort of a magazine. Dr. Alia Saraqbi that you've interviewed does this in her publication class. I asked them as well for a very important task. I tell them that Hermes, the most famous fashion house that does scarves, wants to do a color collection, a capsule for the Middle East. So you have to do design a scarf for the Middle east without using any of the cliches of the Middle East. I do not want to see palm trees and camels and horses. You can use them, but let you show me how you use them. Because everyone is fascinated by Aladdin. And I'm like, okay, Aladdin is not what comes from the Middle East. The camels and the desert and of course these are all things we cherish. But the Middle east is much, much more than this. Egypt is much more than this. Everyone believes. When you think about Egypt, the pyramids, Maybe Egypt is 7,000 years of history. I mean, there's. And I always say I start with when I start the history of, of color history. I always tell them there's a cliche that says Egypt came first and then history started. But for me, it's very, very true because every time I research something, you go back to the old Egyptians and it's fascinating. Then you have the Mamluks, then you have the Fatimites, the Umayyads, everyone, the Romans, everyone passed by Egypt. And if you have a walk, and I want you to come back to Cairo because I really want to take you because you've seen the pyramids. You went into the pyramids. I went inside to remember when it was 52 degrees. I remember that day. You were so red. When I came to pick you up, I was like, what happened? I would love to take you for a walk in downtown Cairo to see. To see the 19th century Cairo. And I want to take you for a walk in Moazd street in Khan Khalili to see the Mamluk and Fatimid by Cairo because it's a. It's such an. It's such a amalgam of so many, so many cultures. So I want children, I want my students to understand, to acknowledge and to take pride and to see how Arab artists, Arab scholars started everything. And not everything comes from the West. We have a lot to give. So. And American University Cairo is a fascinating platform to do this. I thought about you because there was a fantastic panel on Middle Eastern women in graphic design last week at the American University in Cairo. And there's a book. I mean, this is something I have to send you. There's a fantastic book written about it. And then it shows you that starting 15th century, until now, the role of women in graphic design and in color research for graphic designers, they were not published. It was the men who were published. It was the men who were eventually. But it was the woman behind them that was so fascinating, really. And, and so, yes, we are a super rich country. We are a super rich part of the world, and we want to take it out to the world. We will.

Judith van Vliet: And you will. Yeah. I think also, I mean, I met obviously the, the director when, when I was there, and he's the most open, transparent person I've. I've ever met in any university. You know, Jocham. So I think it's. Was Ralia on the panel?

Mohamad Baitie: Ralia was on the panel. Of course she was on the panel because Ralia is part of the woman who wrote this book, Ralia Bahia. There were Lebanese Tunisian ladies. And it was a fascinating panel last week. Fascinating, yeah.

Judith van Vliet: No, of course. Because for people who are listening, you know, I also did a podcast with her. So if people are interested in what she was doing, at least that's a global thing. You know, not publishing women. That's not just an Arab thing. It's a global thing. Like, generally, that's only now happening. And we see now exhibitions in art of just women. And I think it's beautiful that this is a movement that we're now finally, finally starting. Starting to see. And also, obviously, in Cairo. But, yeah, the Cairo audience is one of the best I've ever had in my life.

Mohamad Baitie: Yeah. And I mean, you gave a fantastic, fantastic color talk. Everyone really still mentions you whenever I speak of color or whatever. And they were like, we attended Judas's talk, and it was magnificent. And she said this and she said that. But I'm like, yeah. So people are eager to learn. And what I love about the panel I was telling you about is that the west sees us. I mean, with everything political that was happening in the world, the west sees us in a way. But the Middle east is much, much, much more than that. I think Egypt is playing a big role in rectifying the image. Saudi Arabia is playing a very big role. I'm in love with what they are doing through Al Ula. I'm in love with Misk foundation, what they are doing around the world. I love what Qatar as well is doing. Qatar creates the cultural years of Qatar. Sheikh Al Maiasa is doing a fantastic job in exporting Middle Eastern culture and then amending, if I may say, the image of what the world sees of us. Because this is such a scientifically, artistically rich part of the world.

Judith van Vliet: No, and I think I. Where I also see this coming forward. Besides, obviously on through, you know, the many friends, professional friends, but also the. The color forecast that you do with GLC paints. I mean, they're different. They're just different. You can't absolutely say that they're influenced by the Western. They're.

Mohamad Baitie: They're.

Judith van Vliet: They're colors that are made for. Not just Egypt. I mean, they're a color made for, indeed, the. The Middle East. And the stories also represent that. How do you keep doing this? Because it's been many years. I mean, it's every time. Again. Oh, again, a forecast. Right.

Mohamad Baitie: It's you. You told my students, when you first. When you first spoke to them two and a half years ago, you were the first person to ever speak to my students. You told them that forecasting is about having antennas and then collecting signals and seeing what's happening? There are too many things happening in the Middle East. Wars, peace, buildings. I mean, the changes that happened in Saudi Arabia in the past five years since Prince Mohammed Salman took over are massive. Massive one year for me, it's a dream. I mean, Riyadh is so green. Seeing the transformation and the evolution is magnificent. I mean, Egypt, look at Egypt. Look at what happened in Egypt. I have friends who flew from Paris yesterday and they were like, we were here in 97. But this is a different country. It is a different country. Lebanon, with all its ups and downs and everything. So there are too many things happening there. There's an emergence of, of local artists in photography and fashion. We have some fantastic fashion designers in Lebanon. I mean, there are the global ones. You have so in Murad, you have Elisabeth, there are some Cricut. Chaboution is a very young, fantastic designer. There are too many things happening and there are too many architects as well. And working in Egypt gave me, I mean, working for GLC Paint specifically because you can have all the thoughts and all the ideas of the world. And if you don't have someone who really believes in what you want to do and your vision, then it's like having the most beautiful script and not having a producer. Mohammed Amin Khut, who's one of the owner and the founders of GLCPaints, believes in this vision, trusts me. Yes, we have a lot of fights and a lot of talks and at the end of the day, I mean, he has a board that he needs, the family board he needs to go back to. But we reach a consensus eventually and I love working with him because he sees the value of what I'm doing and we decided to approach color trends in a different way. What if we collaborate with designers, local designers who understand the culture, who know what the people want with different styles. We give them the color trends, we give them the colors and then we ask them to translate these into buildings. Of course, color trends are pre decided by, by us because we sell. I put things together. I work very closely with NCS as well on their color trends. I follow you, I see what you do. I follow people like Carl Johan, I follow people like Mutah Hudai, and I understand what's happening on the global scene and I see what can be adapted to us. So I narrow down these color trends and I take 24 colors that are aligned with what's happening in the world. We all visit Milan, we all do Dubai Design Week, we all do Cairo Design Week. I mean, we're the main sponsors and the founders of Cairo Design Week as well, along with Isham Mahdi. So we know what's happening. We take these colors and then we give them stories and that are relevant to us as well. I cannot take a story. There are things that are on the global scale, like the elections in the United States. States, of course they affect us. Like water scarcity, of course it affects us. Like the environmental changes that are happening, of course it affect us. There are other things that, that I will not delve into that do not really affect us. Or if they affect us, they're not on the surface, they affect us under the surface. But we're a company at the end of the day, so everything has to be above, above the surface. Everything needs to be politically correct as well for us and for acceptable for the mass of the people. We take them, we give, give it to the architects and we ask them, okay, translate this into a design. It can be a building, it can be a chair, it can be anything. Yes, we are a paint company, but we want to see how we would translate this. And then we give it a broad theme. The first year, the first year it was, it was 2021. We just asked them to. I mean, what is. How do you define your architectural style through colors? And this is what Fayyad Badiya, Aisha Mahdi, Mohammed Bajr and Shosha Kamal did. Everyone. Shosha Kamal as a designer that works with old Egyptian inspired. And then she built a temple, but instead of giving it a blue color, she gave it a purplish lilac color. And she said that for me, color transported 7,000 years old temple into 2021, so into the 2000s and the power of color. And she mentioned Kandinsky as well, about how color changes your perception and changes how you listen to things. The second year we did something called Color Piazza. Our inspiration was downtown Cairo with all its deco, art nouveau, Neo, Islamic modernism. And then we gave them the colors and said, okay to five top architects, really. Raifahmi, Tisan, Farid. People can go to GLC paints on the YouTube and they can visit and see what they've done. And they've translated these colors into buildings that are inspired by Art Nouveau or Art Deco or whatever. And it was magnificent. I mean, you can see the intemporality of color. You can see what color, the power of color, how it can transport something and then bring it into life and then bring it into the modern era. How Arnauvo can be stripped to abstraction and given a neutral color. What happens to It. This is how we strive. You cannot do it by yourself. I believe in the power of collaboration, because if you do not collaborate, you die. And this is what we're seeing everywhere in the world, with designers, with architects, the diffusion of fashion houses, with culinary houses, with everything. So GLC is no stranger to what's happening in the world. We are the precursors of this. In Egypt, we were the first person, people who started this at this scale, at this mass. And this is how we continue. And this is how color trends are relevant for everyone now.

Judith van Vliet: Yeah, absolutely true. And especially in a region where color trends are still relatively new and they don't have. Still the. They don't have their own regional, regional trends. With CMG this year, we did have a color, color chromosome in Harare, in Zimbabwe, but of course, completely different. I mean, it's Africa. Yes, but completely different than obviously the Middle East. So slowly you can see that there's also interest which is growing. You know, I think that's, that's the first thing. It's like, that's where the market works. Like, people want to know what's happening and I think it's important to know where we all come from.

Mohamad Baitie: Yeah, yeah, but I'm, I'll. I'll. I mean, I have this plan. I just need to finish a big project I'm doing with GLC at the moment and then having color trends forecast. Chromazone, Middle East. It's on my big plans, hopefully involving you, Mom.

Judith van Vliet: Yes, indeed. I think you do a lot of interesting projects and I love how you've made Caio your home. You seem to feel very well in Cairo and you seem to have found a new home after having lived in so many other places in the world. I think you can call Cairo home now, right?

Mohamad Baitie: I do absolutely call Cairo home. Cairo for me is like. Cairo is like London and New York. I'll tell you simply why. You've seen London and New York so many times in movies and plays and series that whenever you land in New York and you land in Cairo, you never feel London or New York. You don't feel that you're in a strange city. You just feel very familiar. You just need a little bit of direction and then you move along. Cairo, I mean, cinema was invented here. It started here. Everyone understands the Egyptian dialect from Morocco to Qatar. Really, if you take the entire North Africa, Middle east, everyone who speaks, anyone who speaks with an Egyptian dialect, dialect, he's immediately understood. We, as Lebanese, we adore Egyptians. Like, literally, there's such a love Story between Lebanese and Egyptians. And I've been coming to Cairo since 2005, since I was with, with Hemple Paints before coming here we established temple etc and then when I got the opportunity with glc, I immediately jumped on it. Cairo for me is a snowball. But instead of the snow there stand the moment the sun settles down. You see the, I mean, beauty that mesmerizes you. And I always say Cairo, you need to peel it. And every time you peel a layer you find something that is magnificently beautiful. But the most beautiful thing about Cairo and about Egypt in general are the people. I mean you came here, you spent three days, you made a lot of friends and then people embrace you, people adopt you. There's so much warmth emanating from the people. And I have some, I mean I have my childhood friends and I have some very, very, very close friends that I made in Cairo and only I've been here what for four and a half years and I've been so much welcomed that I never feel stranger, I never feel, I feel safe. And it's, it's, I mean sometimes of course drive me nuts because of, there's a lot of noise and chaos but most of the time you just have a super big smile on your face because very small things Uncle Thumma has. In one of her songs she tells her lover that after she met him she made peace with all the bad things that happened to her and she forgave destiny for whatever he did to her because of her loved one. And there are small things that happen in Cairo that they allow you to, this is the term, they allow you to just forget everything, you know, like. And you want to hug everyone again. So Cairo is, There are so many, it's so rich. There are so many layers of culture, there are so many layers of everything, of pop, of techno, I mean last week only, I mean I discovered techno, shabby Sufi, there was a DJ playing and divas of Arabia. And I'm like where is this music coming from? And I'm like really? I don't know anything about it. And like, okay, I'm old but it keeps on fascinating you non stop nonstop. So yes, Cairo is very much home.

Judith van Vliet: Yeah. No, everywhere I go, no matter where I go for some reason I always, whether I'm in Saudi, where I'm in Jordan, whether I'm in, in Morocco, I seem to connect with Egyptians, I'm always surrounded by Egyptians.

Mohamad Baitie: I mean they're 120 million. So you know. Yes, and same goes with Lebanese, I mean the Lebanese diaspora has 13 million and there are 4 million in Lebanon. So, yeah, voila.

Judith van Vliet: Yeah. Here in Madrid. Yeah, same thing. Closely connected to Lebanese culture here in Madrid. If you would have to describe your life's philosophy in a single color, what would it be?

Mohamad Baitie: Blue.

Judith van Vliet: Yeah. Because of the Egyptian blue.

Mohamad Baitie: Because of the Egyptian blue? No, because I'm a person who really, really, really. I try to be as much as optimistic as I can. I always believe that. I always believe that the most important thing in life are us humans, and we are mortals. The moment we understand this, we understand that you need to let go, you need to move on, you need to surround yourself with people you love. Blue, for me, is optimism. It's the sky. There are no limits to your capacities. Once you understand your capacities, once you understand what you can achieve. I'm not faking positivity at all. And this comes with blue as well, has a lot of depth and a lot of sorrow and a lot of things that as a color, it keeps for itself. Just like beneath the ocean, you cannot dig so, so, so deep. And Yves Klah said that blue is not a color. Blue is a dimension of itself. And this is why I believe that. I mean, I'm a person made of so many layers. Good, bad. But I always believe that good will prevail. And I always believe that if you are optimistic, good things are going to happen and bad things are going to happen. You cannot prevent it, and you cannot control what's going to happen, but you can control how you react to it. Whether you react violently or whether you act peacefully, whether you accept or not accept, it's totally yours. So blue, for me, defines Mohammed Beiti.

Judith van Vliet: Thank you, Mohammed.

Mohamad Baitie: Thank you.

Judith van Vliet: It says you're so inspiring. You know, how much you know everything that is Egypt and the Middle east, how much it inspires me. And that is also why I wanted to talk to you, because you have all the visions in one color wise, innovation wise. Because you always seem to be doing the new stuff that nobody else has thought about. So thank you for sharing that on the Color Authority.

Mohamad Baitie: Thank you very much for hosting me. I hope that I benefited. Anyone from anything, anyone who wants to reach out, they can reach out to me regarding colors, the Middle east, whatever. And then I have a feeling we're going to meet sometime very soon after the summer, Mom. Just hopefully we'll do something nice together for Cairo Design Week and for color forecasting in the Middle East.

Judith van Vliet: Yes, we're gonna go for it.

Mohamad Baitie: Yep. And then everyone listen to all the podcasts of the Color Authority. They are my favorite thing to do every single day or every single time I have I'm on a treadmill, I'm in the car, I'm in a traffic because there are so many interesting people. It's so many colorful personalities. So thank you Judith, very, very much for doing this for for so long and for having this passion for color.

Judith van Vliet: Thank you for listening to another podcast of the Color Authority. I hope you enjoyed it. Please rate, comment and feedback the show. This is now a beautiful option on most podcast directories. So let us know what you think and next month we will come back you with another colorful episode.