S6E08 Growing Color with Laura Luchtman

Laura Luchtman talks to TCA about her journey from fast fashion to sustainable fashion looking for a greater purpose. She experiments with natural pigments and materials, always searching for solutions to problems that exist in the fashion and textile industry. In this episode, Laura explains how she experiments with color-growing bacteria and how this process creates a new aesthetic, researching to answer that big question: can our what we wear heal us? 

Laura Luchtman was born in the Netherlands where she lives and works in Rotterdam. She is a textile and surface designer investigating the social, cultural, and ecological dimensions of color. She develops new ways to experience color through bio-based pigments, inclusive systems, and translating color and pattern across different contexts. From her chromatic atelier Kukka in Rotterdam, she works with brands like Puma, ranging from conceptual presentations to applied collections. Her research into sustainable dyes highlights her hands-on approach and commitment to conscious design. Laura’s work has been shown globally, published, and presented at TEDx. In 2023, she won the DNA Paris Design Award for Chromarama Riso.

Transcript

Judith van Vliet: Hello everyone and welcome back after this beautiful summer to the Color Authority podcast. This first episode of the fall is going to be with Laura Luchtman. She is Dutch like myself and lives and works in Rotterdam. She's a textile service designer investigating the social, cultural and ecological dimensions of color. She develops new ways to experience color through bio based pigments, inclusive systems and translating color and pattern across different contexts. From her chromatic atelier Kukka in Rotterdam, she works with brands like Puma ranging from conceptual presentation to applied collections. Her research into sustainable dyes highlights her hands on approach and commitment to conscious design. Laura's work has been shown globally, published and presented at, for example TEDx. And in 2023 she won the DNA Paris Design Award. Chromarama Riso.

Good morning Laura. Welcome to the Color Authority. I am happy to have you here and how are you today?

Laura Luchtman: Thank you, Judith, so much for having me here. I'm good. It's a nice summer day here in Rotterdam in the Netherlands. And yeah, I'm really happy to be here because I really enjoy listening to your podcast always. So it's really very. Yeah, I feel very honored to be as a guest here.

Judith van Vliet: Well, I'm very honored to have you and I've been meaning to interview you since a while. So I'm happy that the time has come. I think always there's a flow of, of interviews that I do. It's a little bit of what something I'm working on or something a client is asking me. It has to do with my travels. I just came back from Mexico so there's probably going to be a new lineup from a lot of Mexican architects again very soon. But it's interesting to, to see that right now. It's the time that I wanted to talk to you and it's the time wanted to talk a little bit about the fashion industry, natural pigment dyeing and everything that you're doing to make the, especially the textile and the fashion industry a better world. The first question is always the same. I think you've at least now know, now people know that so they, they prepare. Which I'm not sure if that's a good thing or if people are sometimes too prepared. But you already know what's coming. So what is color for you, Laura?

Laura Luchtman: Yeah, it's. I can be very short about it. Color to me is life. I think color really breathes life into everything. So when you walk around, the more color you see, the more lively a place becomes. And when you take all the color away, it can become very serene. But it can also become very lifeless. Yeah. There's this nice artwork by Hans Opdebeek, a Belgian artist, and he's known for the Gray house, which is a scene with. Where everything is gray. Even like the walls, the furniture, the plants, everything in a complete space is like kind of the same tone of gray. And some people. Yeah, it's really alienating to see, and some people find it really calming. But to me, it really takes the life out of surrounding and out of the things around us. It kind of reminds me as well of like these war scenes, you know, that you see where you can only these. Yeah. This rubble of concrete which is all gray and dusty and yeah, it really takes the life out of the environment and a place. So color to me is life.

Judith van Vliet: Color is life and it's emotions. You know, in a world that is black and gray, we literally do not have emotions. Right.

Laura Luchtman: Yeah, true. What I also really found beautiful is from a book by Emily Neuy van der Poel. She describes color as the music of light, which to me makes sense because we're always working with color harmonies. They can be consonant, but they can also be dissonant. So I also find that really beautiful.

Judith van Vliet: Yeah, well, it sounds like she is a synesthy, you know, somebody that connects also multiple senses. So probably she hears, when she hears music, she. She probably sees color, I mean, at least from the title of the book. And it seems that she's somebody that has the luck, I guess, to have color in her life in a more extensive way than other people do.

Laura Luchtman: Yeah, yeah, I always find that really interesting. Also, the artist Kandinsky was also a synesthesia, so. Yeah, I wonder what that would be like.

Judith van Vliet: Yeah, me too. Yeah, we don't have that luck, but we do have the luck that we work in color. And you, you, you worked in, in fashion, you work in textiles. It is. You've. We're going to talk about how you've. How you've moved, because I think that's an interesting awakening. I think it's happening to a lot of people. People call it awakening consciousness, but I think it also the eco consciousness that also had a wicked you because you started your career in fast fashion.

Laura Luchtman: Yes.

Judith van Vliet: And now your current business is completely different. I mean, how did this happen and why? And what were also those challenges? Because I bet there were many challenges along the road.

Laura Luchtman: Yeah, yeah. So when I was working as an in house designer, I became increasingly aware about the negative impact the industry was having on the environment, but also on the people, you know, the workers that would make the garments, but also would dye the garments. And we had examples of new collections being made in the Far east and then they would be shipped to Europe but they wouldn't pass the European tests for chemicals that were in there. So the. Some. Yeah. Parts of the collection would never hit the stores. They would be burned even before they would be displayed in the stores. And of course that didn't happen all the time. Time. But the times that it happened, we lost a big part of the collection. And of course it makes you really wonder what's happening on the other side of the world where people are making these things. So. And I also. Yeah. In some, like mainly in mainstream fashion, creative direction and design is not always the leading part of the company. Most of the time it's not. No, it's merchandising, it's sales and it's not taken very seriously sometimes and sometimes it's even frowned upon a bit. So I didn't really feel like I had a purpose, like I was really contributing something positive to the world. Although I really liked my job and I liked working in design. Yeah. It didn't really fulfill me. So that's when I made the switch to. Yeah. Start my own studio which happened very gradually. I first started freelancing on the side and still working for Fast Fashion clients as well. And then I started doing more of self initiated projects and in those projects I started really focusing on sustainability and. Yeah. Where do our materials come from? How are these materials printed or dyed? That's something I became very interested in and I started researching that as well.

Judith van Vliet: Right. So now you have your own, your own studio and you're focused completely on only sustainable fashion. Right. No longer fast Fashion, you're. You're working with clients who, who let's say like you respect those same values.

Laura Luchtman: Yes. Yeah, that was very important to me. I think a couple of years ago I really said goodbye to my last Fast Fashion client and yeah, it's also not always an easy transition because you have to build a new client. Yeah. You have to find new clients of course and go into a very different direction and pivot a bit. But yeah, I really, I've not regretted it for a day because the projects I work on now, my own projects, but also commissions and collaborations with brands. Yeah, they really fulfill me every day. Yeah.

Judith van Vliet: That's lovely to hear. I love that. Those are like those good feel stories. Right. Because when you start your own business, which obviously has also been my case, I think now already four years ago, you sometimes get this high anxiety. Right, right. When then it works all out and you see practice come in that really, you know, give you energy. It's, it's a beautiful thing.

Laura Luchtman: Yeah, it is. And I'm still kind of, you know, open to work for fast fashion if it's really a project that would have a positive impact, you know, and would have a look at the fast fashion business model in general, which I think cannot be sustainable at all. So. Yeah, still open to that.

Judith van Vliet: Yeah, I watched your TED talk, I really loved it. And it's, I mean, I've be following you guys for a while now, but I mean, here indeed you talk about the 20% of water pollution that obviously is coming from the textile production. That's not just even fashion, obviously this is a broader aspect and that 99% of the dyes are manmade currently because obviously it's quicker, it's faster, it's stable. We all know that natural dyes are not stable. How, how are you trying to bring your clients in your projects, even those who are still perhaps on the fast fashion track? I believe you probably educate them and you try to take them by the hand and teach them how they can do it better and also how marketing wise you can market this because it's an interesting storytelling as well. How do you do that? How can we all go back to a little bit? What is natural and what is less pollution?

Laura Luchtman: Yeah, I think as you said, 99% nowadays is synthetic or artificial dyes. And there's a bit of a resurgence now happening. Natural dyes also because there's more regulation, some chemicals are banned and people are more aware of sustainability and preserving craft and heritage, for example. So there's like a newly interested, I think in general what I see around the designers and artists to work with natural dyes, but in terms of industry, it's still very minimum and also kind of hard because yeah, they're not as stable as synthetic dyes. But I think it's in a big way a mind shifts because you don't always need these super stable dies. It really depends on the product. You know, if you want to have an artwork that will last for centuries or really an heirloom piece, then it would make sense to use dies that last for, yeah, 50 years, let's say. But if you design, let's say swimwear or you know, a product that, or a product that's from a natural fiber such as flax, which is very, which degrades very fast in a natural environment, then it does not make sense to dye those materials that are only worn for maybe like swimwear for two years and then the elastic is gone, you know, and the slack switch degrades within a couple of months when you bury it. That does not make sense to me to dye it with dyes that last for 50 years because when the product is gone, the dye is not gone. So it's really, I think a mindset shift in a lot of ways that has to happen, which is not easy because both companies have put a lot of effort and science into developing these dyes that are very color fast. And we as consumers are of course also very spoiled now. But I mean, if you look at denim, that's always the example that I take. It's like it's a really integral part of the, of the charm of denim that it fades, you know, and denim is even pre faded before someone buys it. So. Yeah, I think there's a lot possible in that sense.

Judith van Vliet: Yeah, I think every. Everything fades even. I mean, I used to write this just story from my dad. He used to have a red car. Now rent car pigments coatings are obviously more stable, but if, if you didn't wax it every year, the car would be pink after standing in the sun or if you didn't have a garage, for example. I think it's something that we've grown up with, but then we've learned not to accept and we just want stability and everything looks the same. And I feel that the world is slowly changing or acceptive of something that is the imperfect sometimes or the error.

Laura Luchtman: Yeah, yeah. And also, you know, when you look at customization, it is perfect and it really brings a story to the color. I think can really lets you rediscover the emotional and essential aspects of color. And it has a certain locality, seasonality, which is. Yeah, I think it brings more life into a product as well.

Judith van Vliet: That's true. Tell us a little bit about how you experiment with either with existing natural pigments or perhaps sometimes finding new ones. Like how do you even start? What is your methodology and how do you know? Hmm. This is interesting. This could be something that will be interesting for my clients as well.

Laura Luchtman: Yes. Yeah. So I don't. Yeah. In terms of methodology, I don't know really in terms of new pigments, if I have one, it's more kind of a fascination that starts or a problem that I see or it always kind of starts with a concept. That's the first part. And I have researched natural dyes coming from plants and plants that have been used for centuries in natural dyes, but also looking at very different sources like waste streams, but also microorganisms, which I find so interesting. Microorganisms are kind of an untouched source bit within the colors, within dyes. And when I did a course In, I think 2016, I found out for the first time that there are bacteria that produce pigment and that these pigments are really suitable to dye all kinds of. Yeah, surfaces, textures, substrates. So. And I started, yeah, experimenting with these bacteria on textiles to see if they would dye the textile. And yeah, that opened a completely new world to me. I found it completely fascinating. Something you normally don't see with the naked eye can suddenly produce these lovely vibrant colors and dye the textiles while they are growing on it. Yeah, that. Yeah, I mean, that completely changed my outlook on color and also on my own practice.

Judith van Vliet: Yeah, no, I believe that. I mean, a lot of people, when we think about bacteria, we think about hygiene, we think about issues. Right. So this is also it's interest. So you have to be. The storytelling needs to be pretty well done for people to wear something that has dyed with bacteria, at least let's say for people, for the larger market. Right. I mean, anybody else would think it's obviously cool. And you did a collection with this color, right? You did a collection for a sports brand. Yes, they did a great marketing behind it. Tell us a little bit about what happened with this brand, if you can. Of course. And also how they've adapted this whole storytelling behind the exact color and the bacteria.

Laura Luchtman: Yeah, yeah. So that was really a big step for us because, yeah, this project I did with another designer, Ilfa Siboneyer, she's a fashion designer. And we started this research together. And yeah, at first we only dyed textile swatches in the lab and very small petri dishes. And we kind of made the petri dishes a little bit bigger and like small containers, but it's still very small lab scale. So when we came in contact with the sports brand, it's Puma, and when they approached us for a project, we really had to think for ourselves. Okay, can we actually make a collection out of this? Because we cannot do like meters of textiles at one go, you know, so it's really still in a laboratory and it's very small and the lab equipment cannot handle meters of fabric. So it was a very challenging project, but something that we really wanted to do. And we had a really creative way of working around it, you know, designing a collection of garments taken from their really archive and their most iconic pieces. And we redesigned them and we made. Well, we cut the fabric panels actually before we dyed them so it would fit because we couldn't do the meter's length. Yeah. Then, yeah, of course, we have the bacteria grow on the fabric. So each piece of the fabric has a different color tone, has a different pattern on it, because the bacteria leave these beautiful growth patterns on the fabric, which shows their lifespan. So the story of that process is really embedded into the pattern and into the textile. And so we made a garment of. Yeah, a concept collection, a capsule collection of a couple of garments. We dyed shoes, we dyed soc. And also different kind of materials. So we had even moisture wicking materials. We had ripstop, for example, which is coated. We had hemp, we had silk. We also incorporated these new materials into sportswear, which is normally not really used in sportswear. So this. Yeah, really showed the potential of these dyes. You know, you can dye synthetic fibers, you can dye fiber blends, you can dye natural fibers. And yeah, this was a proof of concept. So it was not a sellable collection. It was actually designed for Milan Design Week in 2020 when Covid hit. So the exhibition never really came to life, which is still a big shame because it would have been so awesome. But, yeah, and a couple of years ago, I think two years ago, we did a follow up of that collection. We actually dyed a sports kit, a running kit for Olympic athlete Molly Seidel. She's one of Puma's athletes, and she ran the. I think it was Chicago Marathon. I hope I'm right correct in. In our kids. And she ran her best time yet. So that was also a really beautiful.

Judith van Vliet: Way, like, perfect mix of many, many occasions, right?

Laura Luchtman: Yes. Yes, it really was.

Judith van Vliet: Yeah. They call that also natural flow or something like that. Right. I mean, they even like the way you called the collection that you did. It was also really talking about the fact that you have to accept that if you have part of this collection, it will fade.

Laura Luchtman: Yes.

Judith van Vliet: Like you will. Or the washing machine also will, by the way.

Laura Luchtman: Yeah. The collection was called Designed to Fade. So.

Judith van Vliet: Yeah. Yeah, that was it.

Laura Luchtman: And it was about fading of life. Fading of the color. Yeah. And that, you know, things can be produced hyperlocal. You can dye these garments with bacteria in every part of the world, let's say, and produce it there. And what the big upside is to, if you compare it to synthetic dyes or even if you compare it to other natural dyes, is that the production of the dye plus the dyeing itself all happens in one spot. And also, we don't use high dyeing temperatures and don't add Any chemicals or any textile enhancements in the process. We keep it as natural as possible and we really try to embrace what this does to a color. And it was really special to us that a brand like Puma was open to that concept. Because of course in industrial processes this is not accepted. But they are very open to explore new avenues and to set. Yeah, like change direction in that sense. Yeah, I really admired that actually because we got approached by very much, yeah, very many brands actually to do a project. But once they hear. Yeah, it's not scalable yet. It has like this natural lifespan of the color, even though it, it lasts for years, but it will fade over time, especially when it's exposed to UV light. Not as much as washing. That's a very wash fast. But yeah, it was really special to us.

Judith van Vliet: So you just said we've been approached by other brands that were like obviously triggered, but then it hasn't come to. I mean, because that's now, I think where you are at. Right. There's like in 2020 you were supposed to have the exhibition. I mean we're five years later right now. But you feel that still the market is not prepared to accept this bacteria dying just yet because the fact that it cannot be industrialized. Right?

Laura Luchtman: Yes, yeah, yeah, it can be industrialized and we're also collaborating with a startup from Vienna, Vienna Textile Lab, to do that. But it's a very different process than the pigment itself is scaled and it's really sold as a, as a dye instead of having these bacteria grow on the fabric which creates these beautiful patterns. Of course. So it's different, but it's possible. Yeah, it's a different process and it will take years still until it's really wide scale accessible.

Judith van Vliet: But you're having conversations and I think that's, that's good. Slowly. Yeah, because I mean markets are not going to change within a year and I think possibly not even in five years as we can clearly see from, from what you're saying.

Laura Luchtman: Yeah, definitely.

Judith van Vliet: I think, I mean it's obviously not only bacteria dying. I think there's a lot of, of, of, of of other probably organic dyes that you also work with. Right. So what are other ways of how you use natural pigments or perhaps certain fruits and vegetables that you also use in, in your designs?

Laura Luchtman: Yeah. One of the pigments that I use is from an exotic invasive plant species here in Europe it's called Japanese knotweed. It's actually from Asia. And there it's not an invasive species because here it has no natural enemy. It really causes a lot of problems in the environment. You know, it takes over other plants, so it has a big impact on biodiversity. And it also goes. Because it grows so fast. It grows, I think, yeah. Even as fast as bamboo or maybe even faster. You can, like, watch it grow. It's insane. But. Yeah, so. But this plant is now really eradicated and burned. And it's such a beautiful fiber. And also because it grows so fast, I was thinking, okay, maybe we can do something with this. So I dyed fabrics as well and yarns with. With this plant. And I also looked into if the plant was suitable for making a textile fiber out of it. But unfortunately, that's kind of hard. You can make a ropey kind of fiber, but not really a soft fiber. The fiber is too short for that as well. It's not sturdy. Oh, yeah. Strong enough.

Judith van Vliet: It breaks. Yeah.

Laura Luchtman: Yeah, it breaks. Yeah, yeah.

Judith van Vliet: What. What colors can you. I mean, just like with the bacteria, it's anything between lilac, dark purple, and something that. That's bluish.

Laura Luchtman: Yeah, that's just one strain of bacteria. So there are.

Judith van Vliet: And then there'.

Laura Luchtman: Yeah, there's more. There's basically every color in the rainbow. Not all are suitable for dyeing. Not all are safe to work with. But with Japanese knotweed, you can take color from the stems, from the leaves, from the roots, and they all have a different kind of color leaves, of course, green, and roots are very reddish. And the stems are more. Yeah, these beautiful skin tones, actually. And then light pinkish. Yeah, it's really nice.

Judith van Vliet: Yeah. It's inspiring to be working with something that is natural and you don't know what to expect. Right. I think it's the surprise effect that is such a creative way to be working with natural pigments.

Laura Luchtman: Yeah, definitely. Yeah. And I also looked into spring flowers to see what happens there. These flowers are normally not used for dying, and some of these are toxic. So there was also research into looking at natural resources and seeing that not everything that's natural is good for you. You know, some things are toxic, even, and if it's natural. So I wanted to raise a little bit awareness about that as well and start a discussion.

Judith van Vliet: Yeah, we all have. Yeah, that's a. That's a very good point. We all think that everything that's natural is. Is healthy, but. Yeah, that's. That's not always the case. Okay. No, that's an important statement, I think. Indeed.

Laura Luchtman: Yeah. Something we forget.

Judith van Vliet: I feel that you're also part of this new generation of designers that are trying to find. Indeed. As you said new materials, which you tried with this plant, of course, that are more sustainable. What are others that you're perhaps working with, that you really feel there's something there, but perhaps it's not indeed, as you said, maybe the application is not quite there yet, but that something that's coming over the next couple of years.

Laura Luchtman: Yeah, I really look a lot at biodesign, which is designing with living things, living systems, also biomimicry and yeah, I think things like fungi. Yeah. All kinds of microorganisms have really a lot of potential to create new materials from like mycelium, which is also used a lot already in interior design and building. Not as much in textiles and fashion yet, but it's. There's increasingly amount of designers that are experimenting with that as well, but also the Scoby from Kombucha, for example, those kinds of materials. And it's. Yeah, they're all really in. You know, it's baby steps. It's really in the beginning of the process still. So it's not. Not scalable as you would like, maybe. But yeah, there's a lot of things happening. And I even heard, I think, Neri Oxman from MIT talking about this AI feature that they're building that can calculate how materials behave like these new materials that are not widely spread yet and can really help the scaling process and finding new materials and finding new material properties and how you can apply them. So that's also interesting.

Judith van Vliet: Yeah. Do you also look into what perhaps the heritage this is? So it's not only about perhaps finding new pigments, finding new materials, but perhaps it's also just going back to what we have.

Laura Luchtman: Yes.

Judith van Vliet: Natural and that obviously European, so that's obviously sustainable because, you know, it would be beautiful to get agave from Mexico, but it wouldn't make sense for obviously where. Where we are living. Is that also something that you do and is that also something that you see as between brackets, trending, that people are working again with what. What they have available, which is then not synthetic, but it's natural.

Laura Luchtman: Yeah, definitely. And I'm very much working with heritage, cultural heritage at the moment, not just from Europe, but also from other countries. Because I really like exploring all kinds of techniques and all kinds of colors from all over the world. Because that's the first thing I notice when I travel abroad. The first thing I notice is the change in color everywhere in the building environment and ingredients for food, let's say. Yeah, it was so fascinating. So at the moment, focusing on Egypt and Cairo, I just did an Exhibition. Yeah, it's great. I spent a week in Old Cairo last year for Patterns of Cairo project, working with local artisans and the local crafts. And I'm going to do a residency in Japan in September. So, yeah, really exploring the textile techniques that are happened there for centuries now.

Judith van Vliet: With indigo in Japan.

Laura Luchtman: Yeah, yeah, yeah. And old.

Judith van Vliet: And then the Egyptian blue. In the Egyptian blue, of course. I mean, I had the podcast with Mohammed Baitiya, which just launched this. This. I mean, he's. He's Lebanese, but he lives in Cairo since a couple of years. He says we don't know. We don't know what happened first. Right. It was just the Egyptians or history also with the Egyptian blue and the pigments. And I. I did studies also to Moroccan pigments from the Sahara. Like the blue magic, you know, which is brown, but then you add water or oil and you have this Yves Klein blue, which is just, just. It's amazing. I think this is something that is also really. It really triggers, I think. And I think it's something that, like what you're doing, you can learn from it and bring it back into today's life. Why not? Like, it seems sometimes we've forgotten about our past and the richness that we have available just here.

Laura Luchtman: Yeah, yeah, definitely. And I think there's a real beauty about this locality. You know, if we. I mean, if you, if you work in color, you always have different colors that you choose for, let's say, the Emea area. And so there are different tastes in color, different trends in color all over the world. So why not make it even more localized and have a color that's really from Western Europe or even from the Netherlands, let's say. I really find this very beautiful.

Judith van Vliet: Yeah, no, absolutely. I just came back from Yucatan from Merida, and they color with achiote. Achiote is like this red pigment is also a herb colored pigment that they put in the cochinita bipil, which is the meat of the tacos that they have locally. But then you can also use it in building blocks. So you can make pigmented. I mean, just so it's something that you buy at the market that you can eat. You can put it in your food and in your meat to spice it and to give it color. But you can also use it in local material materials like saskap or chukum, for example. I just.

Laura Luchtman: Yeah, yeah. Amazing.

Judith van Vliet: I just. I completely freak out when I hear that. Or the agave fibers made of henequen, which here we call sisal.

Laura Luchtman: Yes.

Judith van Vliet: Or also luffa. Of course, in. In the Arab world, it's interesting that. That we. We're going more in research. We're being more inventive, I feel, as well. Inventive of what. What is our past, but also inventive in what the work that you're doing. Like, not inventing, but at least studying. But I feel your work is also very much educational.

Laura Luchtman: Oh, thank you. Yeah, yeah.

Judith van Vliet: I mean, you have to, in the end, tell people, okay, you can do it this way. And then this is the pollution, the thing that you're doing. Like, it's short term, but you can also do it this way. But you need patience, I think you need a lot of patience for your processes, what you're doing. And not everybody is that patient, I guess.

Laura Luchtman: Well, I also. I'm not the most patient person, Let that be clear. I mean, I couldn't be a weaver, let's say I can do these small samples, but I would never be one to weave all day, every day. That's. I'm not patient enough for that. But in these material experiments and dyeing and this whole process, it's. Yeah, really. Because you can discover so much in it every time. And it's also sometimes very frustrating because you don't exactly understand what's happening. And. Yeah, it keeps on fascinating. So I am. I'm patient there, I think. Yeah.

Judith van Vliet: Well, at least you're patient enough to look at the petri dish and see bacteria grow. Color.

Laura Luchtman: Yeah.

Judith van Vliet: Without screaming at it, like, grow.

Laura Luchtman: But it's actually not as. Yeah, it's very fast. You know, it happens in three to four days. So it's fast.

Judith van Vliet: It is. I mean, and I think that that is the beauty of it. And it's. I think it's also poetry. It's mag. And it has a beauty that I think we've been missing in the industrialized processes that we have been obviously having for already decades. Of course, I mean, it's not something of the last couple of years.

Laura Luchtman: And that's also why I'm so interested in preserving these crafts that have, for the most part, really disappeared from Europe. And in other parts of the world, they are still there, but they're all struggling to make a living and to keep on going. And. But there you see these. Yeah. Also in Morocco, for example, all these villages in the mountains, they have natural colors that are very. Each village is very different in terms of the colors they use and how they apply it and the materials that grow there and. Yeah. Exist. So. Yeah, that's so interesting to me. And like, you said in Mexico, the colors and the materials you find there that we have almost no knowledge of here. And I also spoke to. Yeah, Colleague, let's say, friend from Brazil, and she was explaining about the Amazon and all the materials and colors that are available there that she also never heard of. And there's still so much to explore in terms of color. We haven't found so many things yet. And also in microorganisms, there's still so much to. To explore. So, yeah, it's incredible.

Judith van Vliet: I talk a lot about healing, and I think color can be a very important part of that, of emotional healing and sometimes even physical healing. But you also talk about healing as an aspect of how. Through something that you wear, how something obviously can also be toxic, but also how something can actually. I know it's still research. I know it hasn't completely been confirmed, but talk to us a little bit about what we do and what we wear, how that actually can help us heal certain aspects.

Laura Luchtman: Yeah. So the interesting part of that about these microbial pigments is that oftentimes they contain antimicrobial properties, so antibacterial, but they also have properties of inhibiting cancer cells from growing, for example. So science is really interested in that part of those pigments. Not a clinical exactly, in the color itself, but more in these properties that are from those pigments, and they make antibiotics out of it. So you can imagine if these properties are in this pigment and you dye textiles with it and you wear them as clothes, that these properties also remain in the fabric once they are dyed. And we have seen some research and have done some research ourselves to see if those properties remain in the fabric. And in terms of antimicrobial properties, they do. But it's a question about how long will this last? You know, can you keep on washing and washing and washing it, and will it, like, wash out or will it stay in the fabric? That's still. Yeah. Hard to. To say if. If that happens or not, but, yeah, it opens up new possibilities, let's say, and new. Yeah, new routes for these colors, which makes them, I think, extra interesting as well. But it's not. It's. That concept itself is not super new. You know, you also have these Ayurvedic fabrics and colors or like, indigo that have been used for, like, medical purposes as well, so. Although the research is not very clear about that. But, yeah, through the centuries, color in fabrics have been at. Yeah. Have been having healing properties as well.

Judith van Vliet: Yeah. Yeah. Just not. Not only the. The effect that they have on us, like Yellow or oranges or blues, for energy or for calming. But it's interesting that it could also be done in a more indirect way. So it's just by simply wearing something that is through the fabric. It's just working, working while you are just continuing life. I mean, it's interesting that there's research being done at least.

Laura Luchtman: Yeah, yeah, definitely.

Judith van Vliet: Yeah. You very wisely stated also that we all speak color differently, which is very true, because everybody who asked me, you know, what is the language of color? I'm like, well, we all speak it differently. And that's because of our heritage, because where we come from, color traumas, there's a lot happening, obviously, when it comes to color and when it was available in our lives. But you also work that through. You're working on that. Through contrast, we can create a more inclusive understanding of what color is. I think that's also something that's interesting, that color not always is inclusive. And how we talk about color is neither very exclusive inclusive. Tell. Tell us a little bit more about how we may adapt to this, to this research of yours as also creatives. Because when you create and what you create is non inclusive in a color way, you're missing out, I think, on a very big market.

Laura Luchtman: Yeah, definitely. Yeah. So I was looking into color vision deficiency, people who cannot see the complete spectrum of color. And what you see there is that contrast is really key. Contrast can happen in materials, but also, of course, in color or a combination of both. And I studied a lot of color masters, a lot of artists, to see if they would have this natural sense of using contrast and color that would be visible to people with color vision deficiency. And what I found there is that that wasn't the case a lot of times a lot of parts of the artwork would disappear or would appear as gray tones to people with colorblindness. So I find that very fascinating. And I also didn't know myself as a designer to how to design for that and how to be inclusive in that sense. So my project, Chromorama, is a deep dive into colorblindness and to design with that in mind and to also have these secret layers in a design that some people can see and others cannot, but intentionally and not because we don't know about it or we forgot about it. So I also try to design patterns that are based on Ishihara's test for colorblindness, that colorblind people can see different patterns in the design than people who are not colorblind, but with intention. So it's really specially designed for them, but also designs that we all see completely the same. Not just the layout, let's say, but also the color itself. And then you can start to have a real discussion about color because then you understand each other. You're like, for the first time on the same level, let's say. And then you can also start talking about the differences more and hopefully increase some understanding.

Judith van Vliet: It's like the story with the blue dress, right, From a couple of years ago. It's so much buzz on social media, and it was so funny that even in my group of friends, people saw it different.

Laura Luchtman: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Did you see both or did you just see one?

Judith van Vliet: I saw both.

Laura Luchtman: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. First I saw, I think, the only the white and gold, but later I saw the blue or the other way around. Yeah, but it's crazy.

Judith van Vliet: I saw the blue first and then eventually I could see the other one as well. But I think this is indeed, it's interesting. I mean, this had less to do with color blackness, perhaps, but do you know that the numbers on color blackness and also what colors people often mistake? Because I think it's also colors that are rather close that often they confuse, right?

Laura Luchtman: Yes. Yeah, there's a lot of confusing colors. The numbers are 1 in 12 men are colorblind and 1 in 200 women. So 8% of men is quite a lot. So if you talk to a group of people, there's almost always someone who is colorblind, but you might not even know it because people don't really talk about it as much, or it's not the biggest issue. Maybe sometimes, but. And the colors people struggle the most most with is red and green. So red, green blindness or weakness is the most. Yeah, it's what most people struggle with.

Judith van Vliet: There's a big issue if you have a traffic light. No, go ahead.

Laura Luchtman: Sorry.

Judith van Vliet: No worries. I can cut that out. Yeah, I mean, the red. The red and green is a big issue for traffic lights, right?

Laura Luchtman: It is, yes. And also for traffic signs. But the beautiful thing, again, even if you don't experience or see all the colors that are visual in the human spectrum, people who are colorblind, they see more contrast, they see better patterns, so they see more shapes, let's say, when the environment is dark. A lot of the times, and I saw this really fun thing that, you know, colorblind people also are excluded from certain jobs and certain professions, and they couldn't be in the army, for example, but they actually would make very good snipers because they can see through the camouflage because they don't see the color, which is a distraction, but they can see movement within those patterns.

Judith van Vliet: Yeah, yeah. So they focus on other cues to understand what's happening.

Laura Luchtman: Yeah, yeah. Same with animals as well.

Judith van Vliet: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think this month there's going to be an article in Manera in which I talk about the red color and its psychology, and I think I'm going to kill a myth that in Spain, obviously, we have still the fights with obviously the. The poor animal, but it's an animal that doesn't see red. So everybody thinks that it's the red that actually is attracting the bull. It's the movement because bulls only see blue and yellow also didn't know that.

Laura Luchtman: Oh, wow. Yeah.

Judith van Vliet: It's interesting. It's interesting. Yes. Most animals are colorblind.

Laura Luchtman: Yeah. That's also the red green blindness. And because people who are red green blind, they also see blue and yellow.

Judith van Vliet: I think generally, I think the conclusion of this podcast is that color should be, first of all, obviously, something that is doing something for us and not making us obviously sick or other people sick that are obviously working with it. But I think it also should be inclusive. It should spread more in the world because it is literally something that makes us feel good.

Laura Luchtman: Yeah, it is. Yeah. If we can bring more color to people, I think that's a good thing.

Judith van Vliet: Exactly. Thank you so much for sharing all your wisdom and do stay in touch because I'm curious about your next research. I will, I will.

Laura Luchtman: Thank you.

Judith van Vliet: I think people are going to be following you and just curious about what you're up next. And thank you. And I look forward to talk to you again about everything that is natural color flow.

Laura Luchtman: Thank you so much. It was a real pleasure to be here.

Judith van Vliet: Thank you for listening to another podcast of the Color Authority. I hope you enjoyed it. It. Please rate, comment and feedback the show. This is now a beautiful option on most podcast directories. So let us know what you think and next month we will come back to you with another colorful episode.