S7E06 Symbiotic Dialogues with Draga & Aurel

In this episode, Draga Obradovic and Aurel K. Basedow’s creative synergy, where "one plus one is three," combines industrial materials with the "material alchemy" of resin and glass. They view color as an emotional "gift and a subjective experience that cannot be replicated by artificial intelligence, which lacks the capacity for human feeling. Embracing the unpredictable nature of their materials, they advocate for a "handmade future" rooted in physical gesture and emotional discernment.

Draga & Aurel is a multidisciplinary studio working across art, collectible design, and product design, based in Como. Founded in 2007 by designer Draga Obradovic and artist Aurel K. Basedow, partners in life as well as in work, the studio now counts a team of 30 people active between design and in-house production. With a heterogeneous background spanning art, fashion, and craftsmanship, Draga & Aurel are internationally recognized for an original language that merges rigorous design methodology with an artistic approach to material and composition. Their first collections, Deshabillé (2007) and Heritage (2009), marked their debut in the design world and introduced a pioneering experimentation with the upcycling of vintage objects, reinterpreted through a contemporary sensibility. Their dialogue with design history continued through early collaborations with the Italian company Baxter, launched in 2009 and still ongoing, a partnership that helped propel Draga & Aurel onto the international stage.

Transcript

Judith van Vliet: Good afternoon to both of you and welcome to the Color Authority podcast. I'm happy to have you both here on video with me talking about color.

Aurel K. Basedow: Yes, pleasure.

Judith van Vliet: Also for us, we just came all back from Milan, so we're definitely going to be talking a little bit about Milan and the beautiful collections that you have created. But I have one question that still is the same since the start of the podcast back in 2021, which is what is color? So for both of you, what is color for you both and your studio, of course.

Aurel K. Basedow: Well, color is definitely since we started with our collection, Transparency matters. Dragendaurel is the. Is the center point of our. Of our expression. Of course, it is a lot. The surface, the materials, the combination. But we are talking mainly about transparency and the colors. Only transparency would not be enough. But the transparency together with color gives a variety, an incredible spectrum of possibilities of seeing it in different positions, with different lights, with different combinations. And so there is a lot of variety in perceiving it.

Draga Obradovic: For me, like being starting as a painter and then a textile designer and then is like, what. It's something that, like the most beautiful thing that we have in nature in like universe, you know, the. This capacity, because we don't know if the color really exists is something that we perceive thanks to the. The sun and the reflection, refraction. So we don't really know that if the colors exist. But this is also very interesting aspect of it. So it's a gift and being, using and playing with color, applying it and also daring to use it, where maybe was avoided a time before was for us natural, but at the same time a challenge to slowly make it, get it accepted. Like houses in the design world. Because when we started 2004, five, seven, like, the interiors were not that much colorful at all. And I remember I was more, very much buying like Spanish ad or some magazines because they were more colorful.

Judith van Vliet: Yeah, true. Yeah. I feel the same. I've lived in Italy for many years and it's. It's different and I think it's still different even. Even today. I feel in Spain there's. There's more colorful use. Maybe it's due to also the ceramics. Of course, that is an important industry here. But it's interesting. I love how you say that color is a gift. I really like that because it is a gift and it's a gift for you both that you can work with color every day because your product is very colorful. But you just mentioned indeed that you founded your studio, I think it was in 2007, right in common.

Draga Obradovic: Yes, yes.

Judith van Vliet: And you both your partners in life and in work, you have different backgrounds. Raga, you are obviously background in fashion, textile and design. Oral is really artistic research. So it's interesting how your journey began with experimenting with the pioneers of also upcycling everything that is vintage. And it's interesting because we see this returning right now in collections like Disabile and Heritage. So you're looking at your current mastery of living materials in projects especially Affinity and Light, which. Amazing. My compliments. How was your internal dialogue? How has this evolved over those years without losing obviously who you are both as individuals, but also as studios? Because you went through quite some changes.

Aurel K. Basedow: Yes, your question is very encouraging because of course the accent would be more. How did we manage actually? And this is not so easy to rewind could see precisely. But we were definitely in some moments at the edge of collapse, you know, emotionally. And there were a lot of problems, definitely. But what unites us so well, work wise and as well, relationship wise, is that we have a very good, very good capacity of dialogue, of trying to understand and the capacity also to see the other one with his needs and also with his capacities, with his strengths. And so we sustain each other very much through. Backing up the other one when he isn't difficult. We have now a blind trust. Whenever I feel stuck and I ask her, what do you think about this, this, this? If I have a doubt and she is clear, there is no even, not even any discussion, the doubt disappears. Can also be the other way around. So this is very helpful. And in some sunshining Sunday mornings when we have breakfast, sometimes we go through this gratitude feeling and we both have the same feeling and perception of value that we give to each other. And we both agree equally that we couldn't have done what we have created so far without the other.

Judith van Vliet: Yeah, that's beautiful. I don't think there's a lot of couples that work together can. Can have that synergy. Because the synergy has grown over these past years, of course. But I think like you said, color is a gift. I think it's a gift also for you that you are able to work together and collaborate, that you help each other out.

Draga Obradovic: Like we started, the name was for. For phase of Draga and Aura was Symbiosis. Because we were recycling. I was making textiles to refurbish the found sittings and Aurl was using resin to. How to say to savage or to recycle, like hard hardwood, like tables or something like that. So symbiosis from symbiosis we really didn't know the boundaries.

Aurel K. Basedow: That's what the name. It was unconsciously chosen revealed that we were really. We didn't know who was who and.

Draga Obradovic: Yes, and at the same. At the some point that was become tight. Okay. And especially because I was feeling very, very comfortable in what was I doing. And our. At a certain point it was not enough for him and he absolutely needed to some space and to go back to my roots as a painting, which he had to drop to hold. To put on the hold for. For few years until we like stabilized our first company. So from Symbiosis we got after a few years into we become Draga and Aurelia. So I was like more dedicating to this research of functional pieces. And Aurel fully dedicated himself to paintings. But at the same time something like was coming from the same ground. So when we put our. His artworks and the tables or lightings or whatever I do, they have a very like strong connection emanation. And we love to show it. Even if like there is. For us there is no boundary and we don't know, we don't want to. And we don't need to people to call it art or to call it. You can call it whatever way you prefer. But this one plural plus one is not two. It is really three.

Judith van Vliet: Yeah, yeah, that's. That's beautifully explained. And I think that was also very clear in. In the latest show that you did in Milan, which in of Raritas, of course, it was the first edition, that salon, that mobile, everything that was focused on design collectible, which is very much of. Of who you. Who you are also as.

Draga Obradovic: As.

Judith van Vliet: As a studio. Can you tell us a little bit more about your designs, but also what your experience was to be part of this very first show.

Draga Obradovic: I was really very, very convinced about. So I don't know even how I discovered it was not even so much at that point. It was November, we were in Dubai that they will do kind of a curated exhibition at Salone. So as I know, Annalisa Rosso, she was our first curator and also Matiete Basti. I called immediately and I just said, yes, you're doing the right thing. Because there's a lot of thoughts about, you know, where the fair was going the last years and a lot of companies that prefer to get out of the fair and also what the quarry Salone became this kind of carnival almost.

Judith van Vliet: Yeah, it's like a festival.

Draga Obradovic: Yeah, festival. So. And just too much content than fashion with their, you know, takeover too. And so it is just impossible. Like there is a paradox that there. What was in Salone was out of Salone taking a lot of attention because it's a big companies and medias and you know, you're not gonna miss Moni or you know, BNB or Baxter, you know, Villa or whatever, but takes a lot of attention from what the beginning for Salone that was complementing. And also it's a lot of thoughts about like a system, but not like a system as a system of like a political system. Not. Not that way. The. The ecosystem, the. The. The platforms which gave a kind of a structure and possibilities through the network to really be very appealing to and really make come people from all over the world. And then now that is passionate.

Judith van Vliet: Yeah, it's gone. The structure is gone.

Draga Obradovic: The structure is gone. So how is gonna. Whatever. Like we can talk. It has to transform and change. But for me the taking and making this exhibition was a very good thing. Interesting. And so also of like don't be in the space where everybody can come. But the people who come to Salon are mostly and exclusively true. Interested in that. How to say issue argument.

Judith van Vliet: It's not design. I call it design tourism.

Draga Obradovic: Yes, design tourism. It's not tourists, but really can be private people who love or curious. It can be. It was something really sick going on around the city.

Judith van Vliet: Was it successful for you? Was it successful? Did you.

Draga Obradovic: I believe it was a really. We were really happy and we. By the attention that we got that was really amazing. But that is the second. The first that we were really happy with the collection we brought because you know, you need a platform. But we didn't want to show something that everybody knew of us. We wanted to present this collaboration with Salviati and our excursion into the glass and Murano and it was very, very new. But still it is I think feel very coherent with our vision and aesthetic. And you know the very much. Yeah, I was with you.

Aurel K. Basedow: I was not so much present because I was busy being at the Rosana Orlandis, of course, yeah, forehand work. But I had the feeling there was a lot of interest and high level of ex of visitors. And it was perceived really positively for a lot of people saying ah, unfortunately I didn't participate. So I'm going to do it next year. And people are already thinking about a bigger space. I think it will be bigger, there will be more people. And we are also proud to have been the first to be courage courageous enough to do it. Usually people say okay, let's see the other ones try it first and if it works out, we will do. Usually we.

Draga Obradovic: Yes. And now somebody told me ahadraga always contro currente, you know, are going out, you're going in. And also some people, like my friend from Baxter, he says, ah, that's. We changed the rules, the road, you know, you are going to do the installation and work on installation, you know, the days before Salone. And I'm going to be in Milano, center of Milano. So it was somehow fun. But that is also we. We like to do things differently. Yeah. Yes. Yeah.

Judith van Vliet: Like.

Draga Obradovic: Like not play by the. By the rules. Not because we really want to break the rules, but. But because, I don't know, we don't care.

Judith van Vliet: Yeah. In your affinity in light collection, you treat glass as a field of artistic experimentation where your light really actively shapes perception, which obviously also light perception, color perception, material perception. When you're designing, how do you select a color palette that anticipates, which is difficult because it's perception. You can only see it when it's done, how it anticipates, how the material will transform when it leaves, obviously the furnace, which is, you know, also that you don't know how things are going to come out of the furnace. Of course,

Aurel K. Basedow: this topic is actually a very general topic. You really never know what's coming out. If you think you know what's coming out, then you're having an illusion because it's not the reality. So there is a question of how much you can control it. But in fact, we are both somehow alchemists in different ways of operating systems. In this case, there's the question. When we do it by our hands, there is always the transformation through the resin. Whatever color you apply, once you resin coat it, it is different. Especially with my paintings and using different techniques, from oil to water colors and stain and whatever color I use, they have different reactions. It's basically a chemical reaction with the resin. So it's always I do a great painting and I have to resin coat it, and then it's either better or worse. So that's the first step, but I'm doing it myself. And still the outcome is not always so controllable. And in this case, working with suppliers, it is just doubled the. In unknown outcomes.

Draga Obradovic: It's just a little bit multiplied when you add the. How to say, the source of light, the light that passes through color, that it is really transforming and unpredictable. You know, we have this also with resin. It is not new. So there are. We're not like really going into the battle without any armor we make a lot of samples in a small scale, stratificating that Murano color glass in order to obtain the intensity and also the shades. We can mix like Ametista with cobalt blue and do maybe two Ametista sheets of the batista and one cobalt blue or other. And so we developed like a kind of our palette of color. And then, of course, it is nice when you look at horizontally, but then you have to look at with the light, put the light and in this way. And then you have to. To really understand if they give back the strength of the beauty of the color which they have, or they lose it. So there is, how to say, a process in getting it right.

Judith van Vliet: Yeah, it is right or wrong.

Draga Obradovic: It is right in terms of resonating with what we were

Aurel K. Basedow: imagining.

Draga Obradovic: Yes, imagining.

Judith van Vliet: So you have an. I mean, you know, if you want a red or an orange or a blue, but you just don't know which blue will come out once. Obviously the light, the perception, the material. And when the chemical. Obviously the chemical experiment has happened. When you look at the emotional states that you're trying to create with transparency builds or opacity in the past, what are those states, emotional states that you're trying to use, using the different materials? Because you have often a mix of transparency, opacity, semi opacity. It's interesting, with this play of light, what type of emotional states do you think that occur within your work? Or is there perhaps a thought that you have before you start with your experiments?

Draga Obradovic: It depends on projects. And sometimes also in some lucky coincidences, which are, you know, we consider it very much as a partner, you know, like, okay, at the end it will come. Come, right? You know, the one thing will call another or drop somehow. So it depends. Because, for example, with this collection of glass is everything about. It was about lightness and light. So it was imagined like a really a gesture of like a watercolor drop. And the light. The light that this luminous part was an outline of that, not a regular shape of the drop. So in this case, the main protagonist is glass.

Judith van Vliet: It's glass.

Draga Obradovic: Yeah, glass. And it is like 80%, 90% glass or transparency. But then sometimes, you know, it's like if you eat too much sweets, you. You need salt. If you have too much salt, you want, you know, it's. Or too much carbohydrates, you need protein. So it is like this, like hooking some. Some materials calls other. Because it is like too much. You need something that is not. That is, how to say, a little bit. What's the name, the complementary. Complementary.

Judith van Vliet: Complementary, yes.

Draga Obradovic: Complementary by the like, it could be metal or for us also exploring concrete. Yeah, concrete as a very, very poor material, but with the possibility to really be expressive. And the mixing it with resin was almost an alchemic process. And then the result was really amazing. And then it makes sense also with the history of both of us, which have like, brutalism.

Judith van Vliet: Yeah, you do, yeah. And brutalism is coming back, you know, in the last couple of years. I mean, it's not completely new, but you see brutalism. There's more. A soft brutalism, I think it's not the harsh brutalism of the 50s, but it's interesting how you have this beautiful softness, which is almost something that's poetic with the resin and the glass. And then you have something that is very heavy, industrial concrete. What is that story that you're trying to create? Or between the two? Because it's really. They're almost opposites material wise. But also one feels different in tactility. The other is obviously absolutely not transparent. What is that story that. What made you mix those two, for example?

Aurel K. Basedow: Well, there are two different stories or different approaches to this story. We always both love *****. And I remember before we started working with cement, we went through warehouses or even some hotels and the walls, different execution, different ways of presenting the industrial cement. I was fascinated because I always saw some monochrome abstract paintings in it. So I loved it. I love the texture. The industrial cement has a blending that no other material can imitate. It's so unbelievable. The resin, the cement resin tried to imitate it, but they never really managed to that level. That's why there is no material that effect wise can copy it. And so we always loved it, both of us, just as in the beginning of our history, working together, we love vintage furniture. It was not one convincing the other. It was not like, oh, do you see that? We both loved it at the same time. Cement as well. And so you can add to this first love we had by perceiving it in the same way she added her story, her background, where she came from, more from the brutalist, how do you say, Brought up, you know, she. She grew up there and she had more affinity to it. And through shades, let's say, it has

Draga Obradovic: this monumental thing in it. So it. Which is like, ah, it is important and we really use a solid concrete. We are not applying like micro cement.

Aurel K. Basedow: They're not empty, they're heavy. Real ones.

Judith van Vliet: Yeah.

Draga Obradovic: No, no, because you can. Like you. It's just the sound of a real sound do knock, knock. And then you feel the. The. The hollow. It is. It is not. It is like it would be fake. Yeah, yeah. And the textures, the surfaces is something that was always there matters for us both. So I think also the why we approached like vintage or you know, is because of this aging process and of not really new perfect surface. And so that is the attraction like for. For the texture. And at the beginning when our was not using this medium, like resin, he was just really using sand, concrete, pigments and was very, very much about this kind of materials. So it just actually was always there.

Judith van Vliet: Is there a material that you're both thinking of or a material that you would like to experiment with, but you haven't used yet?

Aurel K. Basedow: We have some ideas we come across and we have already we are working on it and we even would have a supplier. We have good connections. But then somehow there is always a priority. And since two years ago we started with the glass, we finished it, we perfectioned it. Because actually you need more than a year then to evaluate after it has been.

Draga Obradovic: But. But mainly. I'm sorry. No, no, no, no. Okay. It's okay. No, it's just like we like to. To use the material which can. We will. Which we can module or mold somehow.

Judith van Vliet: Like a living material. Right?

Draga Obradovic: Yeah, not only that is like of course now like with all these machines they can do to the marble, to the wood, whatever, you know, form organic 3D forms. But we actually love these like materials that were mainly invented in the 60s and 70s to respond to the necessities of magari of perhaps having cheaper appliances or home. Or also thinking of conquering the moon and of living on another or in the space ships. You would have not this edgy, but you would like to have round smooth materials or objects around you. So they start with like the plastic was a really good invention and the fiberglass and all the other material. So for us that period is really, really rich of the resources that we brought back into life in our own collection. But we also brought in collaborations like you know, with Baxter. We use fiberglass and some other like metacrillato or some or also plexi, you know, that have a really incredible use. Then there is a question if they are ecological that we can open a really big chapter. But just to close it like quick. It's just we are making a really long lasting true. Piece is not like a single use cash or bags that you use and throw. So

Judith van Vliet: yeah, you make design collectible. It's not you. You buy it because you love it. And when you love something, you don't tend to throw it away or give it away. So it's a completely different concept and of course, of what we are starting to see in design since a couple of years. And I think indeed you talk about the 70s and the materials that you both really enjoy working with, because your work frequently is referenced as the artistical and cultural ferment of. Of the 70s. How do you translate these historical aesthetics trends into something that still feels contemporary and collectible? Exactly, because that's. I mean, we buy what we love and sometimes it's fine if it has references from the 70s, but not always you want something that looks nostalgic. Right. So how do you balance that view, that vision from you that very often comes from the 70s to something that is for today and for also today's needs and aesthetics?

Draga Obradovic: We put the machine of like, you know, we do. We go like time travel to the past and then time travel into the future or into the now. And it is not that we take something, of course there are some pieces like, I really love it. There are some lamps from Gael Lenti or this from Joe Colombo or other cannot come into my mind just now, but it is like when it is. So like, what can I add? Or how. Why this is not still here? So how we can connect and get it into the now, but not only just taking the piece that existing, but like what they were thinking and how they were confronting their daily life, or what they were thinking about behind their processes. And then like bringing back and just talking about that now it is. You see how it becomes actual. And at the same time, of course, we have our DNA, our approach, and we look it little bit turn it upside down. So that is mainly we play.

Aurel K. Basedow: It is an emotional connection. And the deep passion for this could be, in my case, the biggest, strongest inspiration from where I come emotionally is abstract expressionism from America. So this is specifically. It's that movement from the 50s, 60s. And so it's not that I'm trying to do this because just as in design, also in art, you need to find your own language. But it's the deep feeling you have and the connection to something that you like most. You cannot control it. And that's what she or we feel with certain periods, historical periods. And it is so deeply rooted in our perception, in our feeling, that then it is automatically transferred and translated into something which is authentically how we can do it. It's a transcription of some feeling which is inspired by something.

Judith van Vliet: Yeah, I think that's why it Works, you know, because your feelings are being transmitted through your material. If. And that's the storytelling that you have very strongly.

Draga Obradovic: Yeah, but, but we. How to say we still love, like, if you make amazing tables experimenting with the Luchite, like a glaze table, we still like just buy the Pantone chairs and just upholstery or, you know, or change the finishing and just put it there. We still like that kind of mix of contemporary and the references of the period which originated this inspiration.

Judith van Vliet: Yeah. And that makes it indeed very playful indeed and contrasting in a world towards digital automation. Because you mentioned already before a little bit. How do you see the future of craftsmanship evolving within your studio?

Aurel K. Basedow: Definitely handmade is the main. Is the core attitude and practice, especially knowing that you can reproduce anything with any material imitating any other material. It's an endless chain of precision imitation, project of anything. We love to experiment with our hands and to see it and to really elaborate physically.

Draga Obradovic: Future is a handmade. Yes, future is handmade. But we don't say no to like tools. If they're really adding, helping, how to say, solving some boring problems or even making you achieve a more exciting outcome. We don't say no. But for the moment, we don't know. Maybe we will next year, in two years time we will like do everything artificially and then travel around and just say, okay, Alexa, please can you make.

Judith van Vliet: I hope that never happens and especially not in your case. But yeah, it is something that obviously is happening and as you said, technology sometimes can help. It can obviously reduce times. It can create certain perfections. But I feel that perfection is not quite what you are looking for as a studio.

Draga Obradovic: Sometimes when they are intelligent. Wow. If you interact with intelligence, that's always a good thing. But sometimes they, they seem intelligent, but they're not that intelligent. So especially if you like, you think like you can have a really. A good input and then is they just not a good input? You know, it's the, the, the. The work has to be done then maybe. Or how to say, express if you are really precise, the command. You have to command the machine.

Judith van Vliet: Yeah. And that's still done by a human being. You know, they can't do it by themselves. That's true.

Aurel K. Basedow: Producing is one thing, I think, I believe strongly in the fact that creativity will not be ever produced by the most intelligent ia. There are many discussions of what IA will ever be able. People say we have not even a slight idea what is going to happen in three to four years, how much it will be developed. But still, if you understand the core principle of creativity. Creativity is. Is. Is matched. Colegato is matched to emotion. And that's the only thing we know for certainty, that IA will never be emotional. So that's the answer. It cannot be. It can give you thousands of ideas which can be produced, you know, conceptually. But what we do as artists is you need the discerning and deciding through emotion. It's the emotion. It's not the rational that says, this is good. And coming back to the initial question, color is emotion. That's basically mainly what color is and how do we work with color. We feel something. And it is a very interesting topic because we have the knowledge now that there is not really a precise explanation of how differently everybody perceives the same thing. It's with words. We know that everybody has his story and his interpretation. But the same thing is also with art, with colors especially. The only strange thing is about knowing the fact that we all perceive it differently. There is something strange at the same time that very many people have an emotion. So it is actually more spread than we think. At the same time, it might be a variation, but there are hundreds and thousands of people that become emotional in front of a Rothko painting. And a lot of people become emotional in front of our interventions, pieces and furnitures and whatever. So you have some feeling for colors, and it's an emotion.

Judith van Vliet: Yeah, colors are emotional. There's absolutely. You can generalize. It's purely personal, it's emotional, and it's different for every person. And that's why. What makes it so tricky, but also so beautiful, I think. Yeah. Thank you so much both for sharing your thoughts on your work, on your vision, and, of course, on everything that is color.

Draga Obradovic: Okay, thank you.

Aurel K. Basedow: Thank you so much.

Draga Obradovic: Talking about such a important thing for us, the collar, and it's.