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THE SJ CHILDS SHOW-Building a Community of Inclusion
🎙️ Welcome to The SJ Childs Show Podcast! 🎉
Join Sara Bradford—better known as SJ Childs—as she bridges understanding and advocacy for the neurodivergent community. This podcast shines a light on autism awareness, empowering stories, expert insights, and practical resources for parents, educators, and individuals alike.
Brought to you by The SJ Childs Global Network, a nonprofit dedicated to supporting autistic individuals and their families worldwide, this show is your weekly dose of inspiration and actionable ideas. Visit sjchilds.org to learn more about our mission, find resources, and connect with our growing community.
Catch us on platforms like Spotify, Apple Podcasts, and Goodpods—or tune in Fridays at 8:30 AM EDT on the Helium Radio Network’s Life Improvement Radio (Channel 1). Together, let’s foster a brighter, more inclusive world! 🌟
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THE SJ CHILDS SHOW-Building a Community of Inclusion
Episode 232-Exploring Queer Leadership and Supporting LGBTQ+ Youth: A Conversation with Dr. Joel Davis-Brown
Unearthing transformative revelations from the LGBTQ community, my conversation with Dr. Joel Davis-Brown promises to reshape your notions of leadership. Learn how embracing unpredictability and self-leadership can redefine success, as we delve into Dr. Davis-Brown’s illuminating book on queer leadership. This is more than just a leadership guide, it's an invitation to amplify marginalized voices and harness their wisdom in our daily lives and decision-making.
Navigating the sensitive topic of supporting LGBTQ youth, we underline the significance of safe spaces and diverse role models during their coming-out phase. Imagine offering a buffet of options, minus the burden of expectations. How can this empower our youth? We share candid stories and offer insights on how education and understanding can cultivate an environment for such explorations. You might find that this fresh perspective not only aids the youth but also broadens our own horizons.
But the discovery doesn't stop here. We discuss the concept of mutual mentoring, fostering environments where LGBTQ youth can comfortably express their identity, and understanding our own expectations and boundaries. We take you on a journey of parenting, learning, and healing and the role we play in building global awareness. And to leave you with a hint of anticipation, Dr. Davis-Brown provides a sneak peek into his upcoming audiobook and his continued work in supporting LGBTQ youth and promoting queer leadership. Join us on this transformative journey, and let's change the world, one conversation at a time.
Welcome to the SJ Childs Show, where a little bit of knowledge can turn fear into understanding. Enjoy the show. Hi and welcome to the SJ Childs Show. I'm really excited today to have this conversation with Dr Joel Davis-Brown. He is coming to us this morning from New York. You are in New York today, right?
Speaker 1:Yes, I'm in New York to Big Apple.
Speaker 2:We're so glad to have you here today. I'm looking forward to our conversation and finding out about what you do and what you have passions about. So let's just get started at the beginning. Give us an introduction about who you are and what brought you here today.
Speaker 1:Oh, wow, who am I? So I guess, for these purposes, I'm an author, so I just published a book in February entitled the Souls of Queer Folk how Understanding LGBTQ Culture Can Transform your Leadership Practice, and it's a culmination of work I've been doing now for quite some time and a research interest I had, and the book I don't want to say it was an accident, but in reality it wasn't an accident. Most of the things that happened to me in my life have come about just by, you know, I wouldn't say happenstance, but just being in the right place at the right time. And essentially, what the book is discussing highlights is the need for queer leadership. Why is that?
Speaker 1:In a time when we're dealing with more unpredictability as a world, as a collective, my thought is who better to learn from than those who live with unpredictability all the time? And that would be those who live on the margins of society, particularly those who are minoritized. And the LGBTQ population is one that has not only learned how to thrive with unpredictability in the form of bias and discrimination and stigmatization, but has been able to thrive. And so, as we came through and have come through COVID, inflation, layoffs, war, polarization, extremism, all these different things. It occurred to me at some point there might be something here that the world could use and benefit from if we took the time to actually look and listen to a community that, frankly, I think many of us don't spend a lot of time thinking about and don't spend a lot of time giving perhaps proper due and respect to.
Speaker 1:So that's what led me to write my book, and since then I've just been talking more about what this actually means, and it's been fun and it's something that I can tell you is taking me in directions and places I didn't think it would. And but, more importantly, it's about creating the impact for people, and particularly for you know, we even say queer youth who may have thought what value do I have? And that wouldn't be hard to find and all the legislation that's taking place. So to have people, and to have young people in particular, to say what's my value and to read this book and hopefully understand and affirm their value, is something that's really important for me. So that's why I'm here. I own a consulting firm on two and two businesses and I've been in the consulting world for about 25 years doing work related to organizational, organizational systems development, which is just a very academic and fancy way of saying how do we help our environments to thrive and do better and how do we make sure that humans can work together successfully? That's what I work to do.
Speaker 2:I love that. I think that that is a common goal that you and I have in common. I just want to see the change for the greater good and I totally agree with you that it comes from learning how to listen, learning how to be an active and an open listener to the people in the community that are involved, who are making changes and you know as kind of interesting I know that a lot of the autistic community it can. There's a big connection between you know and so, in kind of where I stand in, the same exact thing is that we need to hear voices from the people who are being discriminated against or pushed down, and we need those voices to be the ones that we listen to so that we can learn how to move forward and accommodate people with dignity and humanity. And I completely agree with that. I think that that's almost kind of like where we start is by listening.
Speaker 1:I would agree, and I would say it even goes beyond, because most people would say, oh, it's important to listen to different groups because we want to figure out how to be more inclusive. And where my book goes even a step further to say it's not only about being more inclusive, but how to even lead your own life, how to take your life forward. There is value and wisdom in what the queer community has that has been instructive and successful for us. That could be helpful for other people. Now some people and I've heard this question before, some people have said to me so do you mean I have to be queer? Do you mean I have to be LGBTQ? To you know what are you saying? And my point to them is no, you don't have to be LGBTQ. The beauty is, you can learn from our community about how to improve your own life.
Speaker 1:Leadership is not just something that is relegated to the business world. So I've had a number of people who said to me oh so this is a business book, this is an academic book. And I said well, leadership has a personal dimension. Before you lead others, you have to lead yourself, and those who do that, I think, are much more successful than those who don't. And I learned leadership, first and foremost, not in the boardroom and not with a team. I learned it in the home, with my family. I learned it from my mom. I saw her example and I also remember her instructions of don't walk with your head down, be proud of who you are, know where you came from, treat everyone with respect, know that no one is better than you and you are no better than anybody else. Those are personal leadership maxims and ideas that help me to become the leader I am. So when we think about leadership, it doesn't mean that you have to be the head of you know, some, the world or a nation. It's how do you lead the person who you see in the mirror? How do you lead your family? How do you lead your friends, because those all have leadership dimensions. And then, beyond that, then how do you impact, let's say, the workplace, a team, a project and then an organization. So it can be.
Speaker 1:The book can be read at different levels.
Speaker 1:It can be read as a personal growth book, a cultural attache, a leadership development book, but it's also, I think, just a recipe for how can each of us be better, and I think we can all learn from any group and any person, given the right context.
Speaker 1:You know, my grandfather says you can learn from what people do wrong and you can learn from how and what people do right. And in this situation, what I'm inviting people to do is to think about how can we learn more from the queer community in terms of what they do right. Because if you think about it, if you have, you know, at least right as of this moment, over 600 pieces of legislation that are aimed targeting the LGBTQ community, and people are still able to get up and have dignity. That, to me, if I were now part of the community, I would say I want to learn something about that, I want to get some information there, I want to bottle whatever it is that they have and they possess and bring it into my own life. And so that's, I think, the lesson for our time and the opportunity that we have before ourselves in the present day.
Speaker 2:I love that. Now, let's say, we're having a discussion and we want to bridge the topic with our, our kiddos. What is a great way to start that discussion?
Speaker 1:Well, I think that's a really great question. So I think number one, just helping young people to recognize we all are different, we all have gifts and those gifts look differently, and recognizing that all of us come with a special set of skills and those skills can be packaged in a number of different ways. I think that's the first thing, and you know, I have a my best friend, for example, talks to his daughter about the fact that the rainbow people, as he calls us, have superpowers and we all have superpowers and just like, for example, let's say, superman or superwoman have super talents that allow them to fly. And then you have, let's say, a storm. I'm going to kind of select a geek here Storm from X men has the ability to control the elements.
Speaker 1:All of us have these different talents and if we want to be better people and we want to grow and reach our potential, it's all about learning how to what those different talents are and how we can use those ourselves to be better and to help people, because that's what we're here to do and that's a really wonderful way, I think, of talking to kids about this is to say we all have something to offer and we're better when everybody's able to share that collectively so that we can all collectively improve.
Speaker 2:Isn't that the truth? And it really starts with our young people to, and the earliest in the in, the soonest we can start those conversations and normalize those conversations, the better off we are as a society in our future generations to come. What about when we're talking about, maybe, a parent who is unsure of how to support their teen? What kind of guidance would you give to them?
Speaker 1:Well, you say they support their teen. Are they a teen or?
Speaker 2:I guess their child or anybody that might be wondering how to, or maybe wondering if they might be queer and like how would you, how would parents help their child find support in these days?
Speaker 1:I think the first thing is letting them know that whoever they are is perfect. I can imagine, or I remember going through my own realization, if you will, and what would have really helped me is just knowing that I have safety and knowing that, no matter how all things shake out, that I have a place to go. And eventually I did realize that. But it wasn't obvious to me at the beginning that I had people who were behind me, that were in my corner no matter what, and, I think, also giving people the space and time. So let me give an example of what not to do, and this is coming from someone who is well meaning. So I know some folks have some acquaintances or associates whose child they suspect it was queer, and so they went to them and said you know, we suspect that you're queer and anytime you want to talk about it you can well. That puts the child on the hot seat, that makes them feel a little defensive and even though it may be clear to other people or I should say maybe there's a suspicion that their LGBTQ identified, you don't really know until the person tells you right. So you want to get the person the space, your child, your teenager, whoever they might be, the space to figure things out on their own. Expose them to, I would say, different role models, to let them know that there's no one way to be anything so just like, for example, there's no one right way to be an American, there's no one way to be LGBTQ.
Speaker 1:And I know, for me, when I was coming out, that was what I struggled with, because I there was an image that was portrayed, and a lot of it was stereotypical, and I thought, well, you know, I feel different, I think I have something to comment, but I don't fit this stereotype, but that's just not me. And so, I think, you know, helping young people to see the variety and the diversity within the community, exposing different people, but doing so in indirect ways that the child so feels like they can, they're safe, they're comfortable, but they're not being pressed and they're not being put on the hot seat and they're not being put on edge, and continue to then also educate oneself to recognize different things and to learn more about the community, because the community, you know, goes beyond what we think it is.
Speaker 1:I remember I was actually on a flight to Salt Lake and this gentleman was asking me about where I was headed. My final destination was Chicago and I was going to the gay games, which is the largest, I guess, amateur athletic competition for the LGBTQ community in the world. Every year we get together and this is Olympic style event and there's about 40 plus events and sports that you participate in. And this gentleman said next week, so oh so are you going there to party? And I said well, no, I'm going there to compete, you know, and In that moment, as we were talking, I realized that he still had this image and he thought he was being supportive, but he hadn't taken time to really interrogate his own mind to say where might I be supporting and furthering stereotypes?
Speaker 1:It's like there's nothing wrong with going out, but there are plenty of us within the community who do many other things besides going out to a bar. In fact, I don't really go out to bars that much, not because there's anything wrong with it. I just don't find enjoyment there. So I think those are three things Psychological safety, making sure that you expose your child and your teenager to a variety of different people and recognize that there's no one right way to be queer or gay, and then doing your own work so that, when the time is right, then you're not sending your child back into the closet or causing harm for them.
Speaker 2:That's so great too, and it's so important that we give our kids all access to a lot of different tools to use so that they can pick up what works for them and leave what doesn't. And in that, we also need to recognize that the things we do provide for them they aren't our expectations of what we want from them or what we have from them. They're like laying out a buffet and letting them choose, rather than putting a plate of what you decide they're going to eat in front of them. It's so much like that.
Speaker 1:Yeah, there's a phrase that has always stayed with me, and it's something that I'm thinking about now as I now contemplate fatherhood is recognizing that children don't come from you. They come through you and the idea that they pass through you into this world, but they have their own ideas and views and needs and expectations and personalities and sensibilities, and our job as parents is to help them reach their potential on their terms, whatever is right for them, not to make them many needs or clones of who we are, which, I think, for a lot of parents, who doesn't want your child to have similar interests and to do certain things and not get it? But I think that can be a very dangerous thing, and so letting them develop on their own and letting them be their own special person is the best thing I think any parent can do.
Speaker 2:You know and I have personal experience here because I have a 23 year old that I've already raised a human and I have a 13 and 11 year old and the most that I have learned in these decades of raising and watching and listening and learning and making so many mistakes is now when I my 11 year old, I follow. I will lead her to good places for her to choose from, but I follow. I learned that if I take the lead, then I am controlling every step of the way and that makes them uncomfortable. It ends up making me uncomfortable and I really learned a big lesson in that and bless my daughter's heart for being the guinea pig of that, but she's a.
Speaker 2:That's a whole, nother episode. But to understand how to now follow the lead of someone who, like you said, you have brought in through, they have come through you and you. You're constantly learning because, number one, they're smarter than you. I'm sorry people, I'm sorry parents you think you're smarter than your kids. You need to take a look in the mirror, because that is not true. We never had the information available to us that they have now to them and we cannot shut it down from them. That's their access to the world. We cannot decide what they're going to see and not see. They're susceptible to everything and that is very scary and we have to be very smart in the way that we offer information, in the way that we keep them safe. But, like I said, it's not in controlling what they see and what they look at, it's in following and then discussing along the way.
Speaker 2:Is this something that you found that makes you uncomfortable. Why is that? Did you get like an uncomfortable feeling in your gut? Remember that so that next time something like that happens you follow that instinct rather than decide and go just off of your brains. So it's been an interesting way to be a parent, but I'm finding a lot more success in it.
Speaker 1:What I'm hearing from you is the whole mutual mentoring concept of you're there to mentor them and that they're there to mentor you. They're going to give you insight that you didn't have. I'm always impressed when I talk to my nieces and nephews about what they see, how they're perceiving things, and thinking, wow, was I that perceptive when I was their age? Was I able to see things? And I think children are very intelligent. I think children are very observant. I think they see a lot more than we give them credit for, and I think the best thing that I try to do is not to do it with any person period, but particularly with young people is to get out of the way, is to not short circuit their learning and their growth Because of my own ego, my own need to project something onto them that has nothing to do with them. It's about my own unsatisfied needs from my perhaps my own childhood right. So good sage advice for anybody, in particular, as I start thinking about this journey as well.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's just really. It really is a learning lesson in stopping unconditioning yourself from years of conditioning from other types of parenting and really taking the initiative and the intent to want to see this person grow as an individual from their own standpoint. That was something that I never had. Growing up was to be my own person, how I was one. I was from a military family and religious background, and boy, I'm neither of the two now, and so it's interesting, without the expectations on my children that they have to follow either of those things, they're making their own way in the world and also having their own empowerment and their own autonomy in learning how to make decisions that might go wrong. Right, because isn't that one of the most important things is that we learn from our mistakes, but we also know that we can have that safe place at home to come back to.
Speaker 1:And that's honestly where a lot of my research around the community was born from. I mean, I grew up thinking it was so clear to me what it meant to be black in implicit and explicit ways, but it wasn't necessarily clear for me what it meant to be LGBTQ. And as I was beginning that journey, a lot of what I had to uncover and what I had to peel away were family expectations, parental expectations and this idea that somehow I had to be someone different. And I remember having a conversation with my dad, the show after I came out, and him basically saying to me at some point well, you all go, do whatever you want to do. And because he was so angry, because he felt that I was defiling or defying him as opposed to just embracing myself, and as he said that and as he made you know this comment of you, know this is wrong, and how did you do this?
Speaker 1:What it led me to think of is what is it that we do that makes people so disgusted or hate who we are? And from that standpoint, I said to myself there's a lot more to our community than what we are aware of, what they're aware of and, frankly, what many of us within the community are aware of. And I'm not here to convince somebody of our work, but I do want to at least make information available so that people who want to know can understand. No, we're not a caricature, we're not this, whatever you want to call it this. We're not possessed of something evil or whatnot. We're not aliens, we're just. We're I'm not going to say regular people, but we are regular people and that's what led me to do my research.
Speaker 1:And in doing the research is when I was like well, the things that we stand for, the things that are important for our community, the things that we symbolize, are really important for the world. Because if you look at what people say they want from modern leaders, all these things are present. So it was from that that the book really took on kind of an even different theme, because I realized there's more here than perhaps even I had realized. But it all began from that little boy so many years ago just saying I just want to be myself and I don't and cannot be someone else and I can't be what you expect me to be.
Speaker 2:How has that relationship changed? Has it improved? And or, if you're comfortable answering that, Absolutely, absolutely.
Speaker 1:It's actually going to be the subject of my next book, because my next book is on healing. It has, it has gone through ups and downs. I think what's changed is my relationship with myself. So what do I mean by that? You get to a place, hopefully, where you realize there's nothing wrong with me and I'm no longer willing to entertain questions that suggest that something is. It also means establishing boundaries to say I'm not having this conversation. So I appreciate that you are thinking in this way. That's for you to work out on your own time. When you come in my space, I am no longer willing to entertain any of that energy.
Speaker 1:And I'm sure, as you know, when you set boundaries with people, sometimes people get upset because you're they're wanting or expecting to treat you in a certain way. You say, well, not today, not anymore, not ever. So I would say to you our relationship now is decent. And what I mean by decent? Now, I kind of liken it to these two cold powers, cold War powers like the US and what used to be the USSR, but now Russia. There's, there's been a detente, there's been a thawing of the cold. We've restored diplomatic relations.
Speaker 1:Is it warm and fuzzy? No, I would say that my relationship with my dad still feels very heady and it feels in some ways very formal, which is directly the opposite of what I should have with my mom, where it's warm, it's familiar, it's vulnerable, it's joyous, it's heart centered, it's real, it's candid and it's safe Right. But I also know that with my dad at this point, any safety, anything that I need, I give to myself and I've learned to have compassion for him but to not give him compassion at the expense of my well-being. So we talk weekly would I say that it's deep, gut wrenching conversation?
Speaker 1:No, but what I've learned about my dad is there's a reason why he is the person who he is and I've learned to kind of become more aware of that and not to judge him but to understand him, so that when I get a reaction, I know it's not about me and I can kind of just dismiss it as such and also say I don't want to deal with this, and so, wishing him well and say, yeah, I think you need to deal with it, but I think he recognizes that there's a boundary. But, yeah, the relationship has come full circle. I mean, we've gone through so many battles over the years and you get to a point where you just say I'm done battling and here's the price of admission, if you want to play you want to engage me, then these are the things that you will do.
Speaker 1:And so there's, I think, appreciation. There's appreciation, there is engagement, but I would say it doesn't go to the heart level like I think it does.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:But he's made it. He's gotten and made tremendous strides since then. Since when I first came out and you know you, I've come to the I've had a peace of mind that you know it will be what it's going to be and I've done all I can to make it, make it better, and that gives me peace of mind with it.
Speaker 2:Oh, I just love that and it's so important that you have that for yourself because, like you said, everyone else's journey is where they're at and there's no amount of wanting them to be anywhere else. That gets them there and you know if it's. I think I read a quote just last week that said you think it's so hard, or if you think it's easy to make a change for someone else, I now I'm going to say it wrong. Anyway, the point is it's so hard to change, and if you can't even make your own changes, why in the heck can you think you can make changes in somebody else's mind? Correct, that is the point. So it is so true. What do you think? When we are now like moving into the workspace and into more like public community, how can we better serve and be more inclusive as a society?
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think we have to recognize that inclusion is not just about awareness and it's not just about a history lesson. So what do I mean by that? It's not just so. In the wake of George Floyd's murder, I had a number of you know I'm a consultant. I didn't share that in my introduction, but I'm a consultant.
Speaker 1:I own a consulting firm, been doing this for 20 plus years and I had a very thoughtful CEO tell me that he had gone to the Civil Rights Museum in Montgomery, alabama, which is great and but, and I asked him, what are you going to do with that? How does that impact the lives of your employees? And he couldn't answer that. And that is the reason why this work is so important. So I think the first thing is to be aware that there are different realities and as shocking as it is in July of 2023, there are still people who do not understand that there are different realities. And there are people who don't understand that those different realities have nothing to do with the person's character. They have nothing to do with the person's actions or behaviors. Sometimes people are denied opportunities or treat us in a way simply because they are different. So I think, helping people to understand this, so there's a level of global awareness that has to take place. Once they're, though, understanding, well, what does that? I'm saying that it's not going to change on this own. So we each have responsibility, and so I love, for example, when I'm in these fora, or I'm in these meetings with community members and they say things like you know they need to do something, or you know the work needs to be done, or society has to change things, or the organization has to change things, and I said well, the organization of society consists of people, and the people is us, so what are you going to do? And so then, from there, helping people to understand that doing something does not require perfection, because you'll never be perfect. I have been doing the work now for, as I said, 25 years. I am not perfect in the work, but it requires a level of discipline, and it requires a level of honesty and grit and determination and resilience to say sometimes I'm going to mess it up, and sometimes I'm going to do things that can say things that are impolite or not precise, but what do I do with that information and learn, and that's where it really comes down to. You know behaviors, so, for example, how do you engage people?
Speaker 1:Now, some of this is not rocket science, because you know, a lot of it comes back to how do you treat human beings as human beings, right, if you see, for example, I remember there was some incident in the news and someone said, well, my colleagues that think are upset about this, what do I do? And I said, well, what would you want people to do if they knew you were upset? You want someone to say hello, are you okay? Is there anything I can do? You might want to educate yourself about it, whatever that it is before then, but we also have to recognize that and I think that's the biggest thing. I mean, there's tactical things that people can do, but I see a lot of people waiting for permission, thinking that they have to be some vengali or some expert to do this work right, and you just have to. The first thing you have to do is just get your feet in the water, just get your legs in the shell and in the pool and to swim a little bit, and then to recognize that the work is ongoing.
Speaker 1:It's not something that I would say you have to focus on every single minute of the day, but look at your interactions as learning opportunities. How could I be better than that? And also recognizing that the way that we see the world is just our way of seeing the world, which doesn't necessarily mean that's the way that others see the world or that's the way that the world operates and exists. So those are the I would say the first few things is just building the awareness, recognizing that there's an opportunity for each of us to do something and then taking the first steps to do it, and recognizing that it has to go beyond knowledge and history lessons and reading books. It's. It translates into how you treat others and knowing that sometimes the way that we treat others is not because we're bad people. It's just that we've grown up in a system, in a family, in a city, where doing things a certain way was normal, normalized, and maybe in other places it's not normalized. And that doesn't make someone necessarily a bad person. It just means that we have to recognize that, of all the people on this earth, think that what a billion, close to a billion, maybe. We need to recognize where our work begins and where it ends, and there's an opportunity for us to adjust how we communicate, even the idea of how do we lead? And that's the question.
Speaker 1:You know, when I was coming of age in corporate America, being a leader meant you didn't ask questions. Being a leader meant that you always seemed confident, you were in control. It meant that you always had this steely demeanor. Well, that doesn't work everybody and that didn't work for me either, right? So then, recognizing well, it's like you know, going back to raising a kid the way that you're going to parent one is not how you're going to parent the other, and recognizing that, and in doing so, saying to yourself, this impacts the entire team and the entire organization in our community. So those are the things I would say is get in the game, recognize that you're not going to be perfect and be okay with not being perfect, but be resolved to do better at all times.
Speaker 2:Agreed. I couldn't agree with you more on that. I think that you know it's so important, especially for me, for what I'm doing right now is to try to understand, across all categories, all boards, all everything, how to number one, make people feel supportive, let them know that their voices can be elevated, and I completely support that. I think that you know it must be from my mom. My mom has given me this special gift of just being in love with humanity.
Speaker 2:Because, I can remember I just had this strange flashback of us on a camping trip and we were walking and there was like a group of special needs kids or something, and I remember her reaction and it was overjoyed.
Speaker 2:She was so excited to see these kids and to interact and to smile and to hug them and it showed me like this beauty to be to people Sorry, just me me so emotional and it really like resonated within me how special you can help make people feel and it's such an interesting like skill I guess you could call it, but I find it to be such a positive thing that can't be taught. I'll tell you that I guess you know having children, like they are so very different from me I couldn't even I can't even tell you and to know that like I somehow developed this skill to want to love people, it doesn't matter who, how, where they're, from, anything. I just have this desire to know more about people, to want to understand people, to let people know that they're special, that they are valued, that they have a space, and so it's so nice for you to write this book and really elevate the voices in your community, just so honored that you came today to share that with us. Tell us where we can go to support you to find the book. Excuse me, anything like that.
Speaker 2:Websites, all the good stuff.
Speaker 1:Sure. So the book is available on all major platforms Amazon, barnes, noble, oh gosh Apple. Wherever you want to, you know you name it you can order in your local bookstore. You can find me on LinkedIn, joel Davis Brown. You can also go to my personal website, joeldavisbrowncom, which should be ready any day now so you'll see it fresh, and then my business website, which is numoscom, that's P-N-E-U-M-O-Scom, and I think also Instagram, although I try to stay off of social media because social media seems so toxic these days, so I like pictures, so Instagram seems safe.
Speaker 1:I have not really got into the TikTok space yet. Twitter I've kind of abandoned because, you know, twitter just seems to be full of angry, menacing people. But you can find me in any of those places. And what I would say to people? That you engage the book and you buy the book, please. It's not a vanity project, and so I encourage people to read it, to engage it, to really learn from it, because I think it can help people to be better and growing. It can help you to support others and to help be better global citizens. So I wanna thank you for your story and I wanna thank you for creating the space for this conversation, and each of us is doing our part and if we can continue to do our part and support each other, we meet in the middle. We meet in the middle. Hopefully, a lot of this work will be won't necessarily be done, but will be elevated and will be easier for the next generation to come.
Speaker 2:Isn't that the truth? I agree with you there. It's just been such a pleasure to speak with you this morning and thank you so much for your time, and we'll definitely be following you and supporting you. And please keep in touch so we can know what's next. You know on board.
Speaker 1:Oh, absolutely. Next is Audio Book, so that will be coming fairly soon, so yeah, Great, fantastic.
Speaker 2:Well, I am looking forward to staying in touch and I just you, take care and we'll talk soon.
Speaker 1:All right, thank you. Thank you to your audience, you're welcome.
