.png)
THE SJ CHILDS SHOW-Building a Community of Inclusion
🎙️ Welcome to The SJ Childs Show Podcast! 🎉
Join Sara Bradford—better known as SJ Childs—as she bridges understanding and advocacy for the neurodivergent community. This podcast shines a light on autism awareness, empowering stories, expert insights, and practical resources for parents, educators, and individuals alike.
Brought to you by The SJ Childs Global Network, a nonprofit dedicated to supporting autistic individuals and their families worldwide, this show is your weekly dose of inspiration and actionable ideas. Visit sjchilds.org to learn more about our mission, find resources, and connect with our growing community.
Catch us on platforms like Spotify, Apple Podcasts, and Goodpods—or tune in Fridays at 8:30 AM EDT on the Helium Radio Network’s Life Improvement Radio (Channel 1). Together, let’s foster a brighter, more inclusive world! 🌟
Go here to download training materials!
https://sjchilds.myshopify.com/
THE SJ CHILDS SHOW-Building a Community of Inclusion
Episode 317-Movement Matters: An Interview with Autism Advocate Dr. Mark Fleming
Every movement matters. That's the powerful message Dr. Mark Fleming brings to his work with autistic individuals seeking to improve their physical wellness. Diagnosed with autism at age 11 due to motor and speech challenges, Dr. Fleming has transformed his personal experience into a mission that's changing lives across the autism community.
The conversation reveals how seemingly simple movements can dramatically improve quality of life when approached with understanding and expertise. Dr. Fleming shares the story of preventing a young client's knee surgery through dedicated movement therapy – a success that proved even more critical as the child later experienced significant growth in height. These tangible results highlight the vital importance of adaptive physical training for neurodivergent individuals.
What makes Dr. Fleming's approach revolutionary is his deep recognition that autism manifests differently in each person and fluctuates daily. "I know how my autism affects me, but I don't know how it affects them," he explains. This perspective allows him to create truly individualized programs focused on functional movements that directly translate to improved independence: squats that mimic sitting and standing, push-pull motions for daily tasks, balance exercises, and reaching movements.
His insights on nutrition for sensory-sensitive individuals provide a refreshing alternative to rigid diet plans. Rather than overwhelming clients with dramatic dietary overhauls, Dr. Fleming advocates for gradual modifications and supplementation, drawing from his own experiences with food sensitivities. "If someone's eating ten cheeseburgers daily, let's reduce to seven and add a vitamin," he suggests pragmatically.
From the child who first walked to chase an ice cream truck to the doctoral graduate defying expectations, Dr. Fleming's journey exemplifies the power of understanding individual motivation and capability. Connect with him on social media under "Official Dr Mark" to discover how specialized movement training could transform your or your loved one's daily living experiences.
Hi, thanks for joining the SJ Child Show today. I am excited about this conversation Today. I am meeting with Dr Mark Fleming and we've been following one another on social media for quite some time now and it's going to be really nice to connect and find out more about well I know, but if I share with you guys more about you know the services, the ideas, his mission and his story. So thank you so much for being here today.
Speaker 2:Thank you for having me.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's really exciting to catch up with you and tell everybody a little bit about yourself introduction, and then we'll go from there.
Speaker 2:So my name is Dr Mark Fleming, Just recently finished up my PhD in kinesiology. I was diagnosed autistic at 11 years old. Mainly it was fine, gross gross motor and speech issues and then started having social issues around probably middle school that's what led to the autism diagnosis Ended up going to college at the University of Alabama finding an interest in exercise science and then went and got my master's, moved back home due to some issues and started working in ABA, which is where I found I worked well with the population and kind of found that I could be an advocate and be the voice for a lot of individuals that didn't have a voice. That's also where I saw a discrepancy in movement patterns for individuals that were younger. They were showing up with my Special Olympic athletes so I knew there was a physical activity gap that was occurring and so, with my background and ABA kind of being a, I didn't see a future in it because I would have had to gone back to school to get my master's. But I would have had to even get an undergrad just to get my master's, just to, you know, get a BCBA. So I was like, let me just use what I know, um, and kind of try to see if I can't help anybody.
Speaker 2:Um, in a year I um was doing in-home um the first first two years, and then I moved into his studio and it kind of went crazy there in the first year got publicized throughout the world and that was 2019. So 2020 came, COVID hit and kind of had to reinvent and kind of deal with that stuff. And then two years ago it was in a pretty major car accident. So I have to reinvent myself again. So you know that's. That's a short, short version.
Speaker 1:Once you find the way, the new way is paved for you to find. Isn't that the truth, the way of life? Oh my goodness, that's fascinating. And I came about kinesiology a completely different way, but I love kinesiology, so I'm really excited about this conversation. But for folks that don't know what that means, give us a brief description of what that entails.
Speaker 2:So kinesiology is essentially the science of how the body interacts with exercise. So that can be mental anything, physical, internal, so dealing with cardiovascular, so your blood, the endocrine system, so your hormones, digestive system, anything with diet, and all that alongside all the typical muscular adaptations that occur. So it's a pretty broad subject it's a pretty broad subject.
Speaker 1:And you can really get kind of a clue or, if you will, a key maybe to what somebody might be going through through some of those determinations or measures, if you will and really help people. I learned I was an massage therapist and I worked for a chiropractor that was also a kinesiologist. So yeah, it was fun to learn more than I would have anticipated, you know, working anywhere as just being a massage therapist. So yeah, I really learned to appreciate all aspects of Eastern medicine, if you will. I guess there's just so many things. But what do you do for a client, like, how do you help them? Do you go to schools or do they come to you? What does that look like in the community?
Speaker 2:Yeah, so for right now. Now it's all virtual, but what I started off doing was going in home and essentially be a personal trainer for that individual. And then I had my studio, which then people came to me. But I also did local like. I went to local organizations in the Tampa Bay area I don't do that here, but where I would go to say, like a job training organization, talk to their clients about the importance of fitness and diet and all that stuff, you know, the importance of fitness and diet and all that stuff and then just put them through a little routine so that they can be like, okay, this makes sense, um, you know, and just give them kind of that um, over overview of everything.
Speaker 1:So how do we start as parents, maybe with our littler ones, to try to, because we we have a huge, there again spectrum of individuals who, you know, may have eating diversion, may have physical restraints, or or even just maybe don't know how to move in a certain way. So how do you introduce those clients to your program or or kind of what do you walk them through?
Speaker 2:Um, so you just start with the very basics and see what the individual can do. First off, um, because I, I even started doing stuff at one point and the parent just started crying, because they're like, I didn't know my kid could do that. Because, you know, we're most people, if we don't have to do something and we don't like whatever it is, we're not going to do it, going to do it. So, like example, my mom always loves telling me this is that the first time I walked was that. You know I was, I was a chubby baby with motor issues that weren't yet, you know, known. But you know, the ice cream truck came by one day and I looked up and motioned to my mom like hey, let's go get ice cream. And she looked at me and she's like no, if you want ice cream, you got to go get it yourself.
Speaker 2:I just hopped up and walked and got it right because that's just how it is so learning what the individual can and can't do because, like you said, there's some motor deficiencies that you may need to help with. When it comes to behavior, you know you got to work slowly. It just really depends on the individual, and kind of being empathetic and understanding of what someone may be going through allows me to kind of understand more about what's going on so I can take that step back and see what's really needed.
Speaker 1:I like that. It's really important to be an active listener, I guess, at that moment where you can really hear the struggles that that mom is saying the child is having, or the child can relate to you, or the individual can relate to struggles that they might be having. What type of? So give us an example of like a start to finish movement session or something that you might help someone with and what those results would be.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so it's pretty much like a normal personal training session. They come to me, we do a work warmup. We focus on the movements that a individual is gonna be doing throughout the day, depending on their physical capabilities, but most people it would be like a squat, because that represents sit stand, a sort of push-pull type movement, because we're always pushing and pulling things throughout our days. In the studio it was using like a step up type movement, helping an individual be able to go up and down stairs balance, because we all need balance, and then sort of reach up type exercise, because you got to be able to put things up, take things down, um. And then cardio, because we all need better heart health, um. But those would be buried, depending on the individual needs and and their specific goals.
Speaker 1:And how can they do that online? Do you basically just walk them through those steps and and mirror those things for them and they do it in their room while you do it, or you give them the instructions and and like a worksheet? What does that look like?
Speaker 2:Well, it depends on the individual's learning pattern. I'm not going to sit here and just tell you exactly what I told you. If you're a kinesthetic learner, right, exactly what I told you. If you're a kinesthetic learner right, you're a kinesthetic learner I'm going to tell you to grab something and do the movement with me, mirror it right. And it just depends on the individual, what age they're at, what their experience with exercise has been.
Speaker 2:Previously, a lot of my current clientele right now they were ones that worked with me in studio, so I don't have to mirror as much because we're doing the same sort of things, because most of them have been inactive for the last eight months, but yet they still know what movements we do. They just have been inactive. So it really depends on the individual. I try to tailor everything individualistically because, even if I'm working with an autistic client, I don't know how autism affects them. I know how my autism affects me, but I don't know how it affects them, and so I can't take this clinical viewpoint of what autism is going into every session, even day-to-day sessions, right, because autism is going to be different every single day and I have to be completely aware of that. Going into a session like hey, this individual may be on the verge of a breakdown. This individual may be on the verge of a breakdown. I got to be able to scale back. I have to be able to do this, do that, depending on that individual.
Speaker 1:I love that. You're a wonderful provider. I appreciate that in you so much I think I hope that I'm just going to make that clip and everybody needs to be like this, because every day can be so dang different. You know, my kiddo has the craziest sleep schedule and you know, it took maybe for years of really watching his patterns and figuring it out to understand that it was what his body needed. It was his own, you know somatic cycles he was going through and it's two weeks in the day and two weeks in the night, which to everyone else in society is crazy, because how do you schedule anything when you can't, when you have two weeks unavailable to you?
Speaker 1:So homeschooling was fantastic for us and I could do whatever I needed to do, but um, but it has definitely created some some struggles with with creating other regulated like regular exercise. For example, we do try to go for drives and then go out for walks and things when we do those things, but it's tricky and it is very individual to every family and to every person's needs. What about do you talk to families and individuals about their nutrition and what that might look like, or or what kind of um guidelines to best stay within. I don't know if that is possible either.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I I try to not get too in-depth in it because that's out of my scope of practice, but what I typically look at is a three-day food journal to see what the individual's eating and based off of that I can get a rough estimate how many calories they're getting in, how much protein they're getting in, how much you know fiber, macro, all that you know, and make recommendations.
Speaker 2:Obviously, when it comes to autistic individuals, you have a lot of sensitivity when it comes to food and so I try not to tell the individual to switch that up a lot, because you don't want to mess with that food palette, because the individual will not eat if you completely take that away. And so what I try to focus in is okay if this individual's eating, say and this is hypothetical 10 cheeseburgers a day, let's try to reduce that to seven or six, so they're reducing the caloric intake instead of hey, we just need to eat lettuce. Yeah, just need to eat, you know, lettuce. Yeah, let's try to focus on. Hey, let's eat less. And then let's try to give a gummy vitamin right, a daily vitamin. So they're getting those micros as well.
Speaker 2:Because that's how I started, you know, my health journey, as I started taking supplements instead of because I can't. There are certain foods I can't eat. Like I drink a shake twice a day for my nutrient, just because I can't eat certain vegetables, certain colors, certain textures, like it's just weird, right, and so if I can't do that, I can't expect anybody else to do that. And so just providing some resources and sources for people to use so that you know they don't feel overwhelmed while my kid isn't getting all the nutrients they need, well, let's try to find, you know, different ways. You know there's Ensure where you can get protein and all this other stuff for a carb heavy person. You know Ensure tastes like milkshakes, so you know adding those. The person doesn't realize they're getting this protein and nutrients and all this other stuff.
Speaker 1:So you're you're sort of tricking, but not tricking, right, yeah, so tricking those sort of things, positive intentions no I like that and my husband will be so glad to hear you say that because he he is the same way. Like he, it has a liquid diet throughout the day and then he'll like eat a dinner, but and he does restoration and construction and he can't stop and eat something. In fact, it makes him fall asleep If he eats something. He has a really sensitive digestion. So, yeah, it's, it's, we have to be understanding of how those foods affect them as well, like you said, and I'm really glad that you shared that. Thanks for for sharing your own story about that. What do you think? Um was kind of the aha moment, or you know, this is what I'm going to do to help you know families and what was that drive for you? Did you like to work out, like you said you, you were taking supplements and your own health journey. How did that flip for you to want to just help the community?
Speaker 2:Um, so I was always into sports growing up. That was kind of my thing, which it was, um, just one of the reasons why I wasn't in a, uh, specialized school or anything like that, because I could socialize around sports. Um, so that wasn't. You know, that was kind of my pathway because it wasn't deemed as a negative thing. Right, when we think autism and special interests, most people don't think sports as being a special interest. It was mine.
Speaker 2:Then I got to college, floated around a little bit because I didn't really know what I wanted to do. Know what I wanted to do, landed on kinesiology and had a adaptive physical education class where I met my first ever client and I loved it. But everybody that gets into exercise, science, kinesiology usually the vast majority of them end up in it because they want to train athletes. Of them end up in it because they want to train athletes. So that was still in my mindset when I got in my master's, did another adapted special education class, physical education class really enjoyed it. Actually wrote a paper that could have been, you know, a dissertation, but still was like, nah, I'm going to train athletes. Got into ABA, found that I worked well with the population. Then I was like, okay, yeah, maybe this is it, and it really didn't hit me until I started actually making a difference.
Speaker 2:So, like with one of my very first clients, he had not me very young, not me, very young, not me to the point where, if it didn't improve, they were going to cut his knees to shorten those tendons and so it took like a year and a half but we prevented him from that surgery, which is good, because he gained like over a foot after I worked with him in height. So, like you know, that could have been really bad. Um, but seeing those differences, the things because most people when they think personal training and exercise, they're mainly focused on the weight loss and all that or building massive muscle, when really it's just about improving daily life and seeing that I was actually making a difference was like, yeah, that's really what this is about.
Speaker 1:I love that. No, it is really special when you make a difference for someone and help them help themselves. That's the best part is when they see the results and see and it empowers them to want to be better for themselves. So that's a powerful gift you're giving people really really cool, really cool. Um, what is the plan? Moving forward? Any anything different? Or you're gonna keep practicing where you're at any?
Speaker 2:not that, don't reveal too many secrets uh, the plan right now is just to keep building business back up. Um, I am, you know, keeping feelers out there for other jobs, because this would be my fourth or fifth time rebuilding the business, because going from in home to in studio I had to rebuild it. Then after COVID I had to rebuild it and you know, it's just a lot. If I can find, you know, that would be awesome, just so that then I can still have, especially now that I have a doctorate, I want to be able to help whole communities. I want to be able to help, you know, from massive organizations and stuff like that, because, you know, while working at where I was, you know, I I feel that I can help more. And so, just keeping those feelers out, you know, but you never know, you never know Just being able to adapt and be able to change things when the time's right, whether it's with a new business, with my business, creating different programs to improving my self-advocacy, writing books, whatever that looks going forward.
Speaker 1:I love that, and if people are interested in supporting you and finding out more or becoming a client, where do we need to send them?
Speaker 2:so the best uh best places is facebook, instagram, tiktok, all uh our official dr mark in some form or fashion. Um so instagram official underscore Dr Mark.
Speaker 1:Isn't that the way it goes? It's always open it without it yelling at you.
Speaker 2:Is. It is again official underscore Dr Mark, and I think Facebook's a little different. I think it's. I can't see it right now, but it would be like official Dr Mark 31 or something like that. You can look up my name, Mark Fleming, on all platforms. It should pop up, especially if you include that doctor Congratulations on that, by the way.
Speaker 1:Thank you Thank you.
Speaker 2:It's quite the achievement, one that you know. A lot of people didn't think I would graduate high school, so being able to go get my doctorate is a huge thing, Do you?
Speaker 1:have siblings, or I'm sure parents that got to appreciate that for you.
Speaker 2:Yeah, my sister and my mom, yeah, so, which you know, both of them were just amazed. You know, because I struggled in high school, struggled in undergrad, I didn't really start hitting my stride till my master's program, undergrad. I didn't really start hitting my stride till my master's program, so I was a really late bloomer when it came to school and learning.
Speaker 1:Well, you've done fantastic and you have your whole life ahead of you and all of the people that you're going to touch and help and families that you're going to just improve lives. So thank you so much for the work you're doing and we really appreciate it. It's been so nice to get to know you today. I hope we can stay in touch and definitely, you know see if I can send people your way in any way and support you any way I can. So thank you so much.
Speaker 1:Yeah, thanks for having me, it's been a pleasure. Yeah, let's stay in touch, for sure.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
