Faith, Calling & the War Between Good and Evil - Pastor Curry Pikkaard

Pastor Curry Pikkaard is a man of deep faith who has spent over four decades in pastoral ministry since his ordination in the Reformed Church of America in 1974. Curry shares the story of his unexpected calling to ministry, his 2023 transition to the Kingdom Network following theological differences, and the broader crisis of churches expelling members whose understanding of faith has evolved. Drawing on his book A Nation Under God: Reflections from Jeremiah, he explores the parallels between ancient Israel and today's political landscape, the war between good and evil playing out both within individuals and across nations, his view of the Book of Revelation as a roadmap for increasingly turbulent times, and even his openness to sitting down with an extraterrestrial visitor should one ever arrive.

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Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:05

Hello everyone, welcome back to a new episode of the Spiritual Inspired um show. I am your host, Claudio Murgan. For previous episodes, please visit Oravers Network, our YouTube channel, or spiritualinspired.ca. My uh guest um today is Pastor Curry Picard, and we will talk about a number of uh things related to uh spirituality, religion, his uh path as a as a pastor, as a pastor as well. So let's start. Uh Curry, thank you very much for joining me.

SPEAKER_01 0:41

It's my honor and my privilege to do so. Thank you for the opportunity.

SPEAKER_00 0:45

You've been in this uh field and community for a long, long time. Uh you were ordained in the uh Reformed Church in America in 1974 as a baby then. So, um, how has your understanding of your calling evolved over that time?

SPEAKER_01 1:04

I think probably the the basic way it's evolved is learning and growing in the recognition that uh to be called by the Lord to serve him follows his plans and not ours. Um in so many different instances. Uh I would look at a ministry or a possible church or some form of service and say, Boy, you know, it it it might be nice to be there, to be part of that. None of those ever happened. It's the ones that he brought before me and placed before me and called me and nudged me to uh that became the places in the fields of ministry. And I uh it's just been a lifelong learning of what it means to to follow. And follow means follow, not try to lead or guide, but to follow.

SPEAKER_00 1:51

Yes, I mean we all try to learn and um follow our faith uh in this uh lifetime. Some will, you know, go on an exit and uh come back later on after so many you know happenings and learnings. But I think it's good for all of us to come back on the path at one point in our life and uh you know uh go through through the learning and uh be able to help others as well.

SPEAKER_01 2:18

Yeah, exactly. And my whole uh calling into ministry was really uh my first lesson in that, as I began to realize later. I uh I was born and raised in a Christian home, kind of like a Timothy, which born and raised in the Christian home, uh accepted the faith, never really rebelled against it, but uh in my senior year of high school, faced some major disappointments of goals I had hoped to accomplish that that didn't happen and left for college. It was a Christian college, my freshman year, and said uh had to declare a major in those days. And I said, Well, it'll might as well be music. That's kind of what I did as extracurricular activities. And after just a couple of months, I realized, yeah, I like music, but I don't love music and I don't really want to make a career out of this, but had no idea what that meant. And one morning of my freshman year, I woke up and found myself sitting at my desk writing a letter to my parents saying, uh, God's called me into ministry. And it there was no flashes of lightning or anything, it was just sort of his way of saying, Now that I finally have you where I want you, maybe you'll listen and follow. And that's uh whenever things have been tough, when ministry has been difficult, I've looked back on that moment and realized uh he's in charge and it it's wise to follow him.

SPEAKER_00 3:32

Yes. And in uh 2023, you transfer your ordination to the Kingdom Network. What prompted uh that uh transition and uh what does it mean for your ministry going forward?

SPEAKER_01 3:46

It was very, very difficult. Um, I was born and raised in the Reformed Church, and as you mentioned, ordained in the Reformed Church. Uh, and it really is largely responsible for who I am. But uh over the last number of years, uh my convictions and theirs began to differ uh theologically and biblically on some issues. Uh, and there were some systemic things where it was difficult to change, some things that a large number of people felt needed to be changed. And I just felt to be true to my own conscience, I needed to find some frame of ministry which was more compatible with my theology and biblical upbringing that that I had so richly obtained. And so at that point in time I decided to transfer to uh to the Kingdom Network, which is an organization of largely reformed churches. Uh, maybe a better way to put it is a it's a uh grouping of churches with reformed traditional reformed theology. And and uh I've been very, very comfortable with that, and um I I miss certainly many of the roots from the Reformed Church, but I also believe uh for me and for the congregation that I'm a part of, it was the right decision.

SPEAKER_00 5:01

Yes, and you know it happened in uh in my life and in the lives of uh those which I interviewed over the last six years that the moment they grew to a different understanding of the teachings and Jesus' teachings and um what he was preaching, they were pretty much expelled out of that um particular church. It was like they became a different person and they couldn't fit in anymore, and they're not accepted for their new beliefs. So, how do you see this um transition and this um discrepancy between what the church is teaching and how the church behaves when some of their most devoted um people are coming and telling them, you know what, I think I think differently right now. I my understanding has evolved because I work on myself outside the church and I see things from a different perspective. Why is that?

SPEAKER_01 6:11

It's that's uh that's very complex and and it's very difficult. Uh and I think um it's I don't want to say it is, but it it it reminds me of you know kind of the wheat and the tares in the sense that uh uh God works through people, uh even as uh I think Satan tends to try to get his mind inside of the of the church. And uh I as people drift from uh basic core beliefs that have formed who they are. For example, within the Reformed Church, there is a whole core of beliefs, and that their theological studies have affirmed certain stances all along the way, but then they say, but we'll leave it up to each congregation. Well, if that's your stance, why do you how can you say that you won't won't enforce that? I can disagree and still be a part. And we live in a day and age when getting along seems to be the mantra, and so it's I think very easy and convenient for churches to say, Well, this is our belief, but if you want to be part of us, it's okay, we're not going to force that on you. And as I read the scriptures, uh Jesus is pretty clear, the scripture is pretty clear. This is the way, walk in it. And if I believe scripture says this, I need to be able to be true to myself and to those I minister to, and so it becomes very difficult. And of course, the world and the skeptics and the enemy himself uh would have no problem with the church splitting, and that's what happens. And unfortunately, those of us who leave, I think in good conscience, uh, become the ones who are accused of splitting the church when the reality is that may not be the case. Um, but it's it it's it's it's complex, and I think each individual and each congregation needs to work through that uh in their own time and in their own way.

SPEAKER_00 8:05

Yes, it's difficult. And as you said, I think Christianity is the only, or the Orthodox or the Catholic Church, in fact, is the only one who allows so many denominations like uh Jesus or the teachings uh are uh have multiplied or they they mean something else for other people and uh for different people, and they can interpret it any way they they want. And I think um common sense and and logic uh has been lost while reading the Bible because they are all over the place right now.

SPEAKER_01 8:42

Well, exactly, and it's it is so easy to allow what we hear in the world and in society to influence how we read the scriptures. It's almost we we come to the scriptures with a mindset and then we we find or cherry pick from the scripture what we think backs that up rather than prayerfully coming to the scripture and opening ourselves to hear what it has to say and taking that into the way we interpret the world, and that becomes our filter for the world. So rather than letting the world be the filter of how I hear scripture, we need to let scripture be the filter for how we view and hear and respond within our world.

SPEAKER_00 9:24

And I think other aspect of the Bible people are uh being challenged with is the God. Is the God from the Bible the creator of the world and the real God, the divine source? And in my opinion, it is not. Again, you you or anyone else don't have to be in agreement with me, but when I read the Bible, it's a history book, pretty much of a tribe, the history of a tribe and how they perceive the world, their own world, because there were there was no internet at that time for them to send an email and get feedback from the other side of the world on how those guys are living and doing. So to me, um, looking at all the archaeological discoveries and scientific discoveries, I think there are two different entities people are being conflicted by the one from the Bible and the real creator, which has very little to do with the Bible itself.

SPEAKER_01 10:29

That's very interesting. Uh because my belief would lead me that when the Bible begins with in the beginning, God created, and you follow that story throughout the scripture, and I say story meaning not fake, but the historical account uh of how that God operated uh through a chosen nation, and you look through all the I some would say the boring parts of scripture which lists all these genealogies, but when you follow all of those, it leads very clearly uh to the birth of Jesus Christ and ties that all together. And in fact, the scriptures even say that it was through Jesus that the world was created, so that he was part of that creation. So it in in from my viewpoint, um, as I read the scripture, it is all one continuous story from covering history, but also from a lot of different perspectives. And um, they all the the common threads from beginning to end are amazing. When you look at when Genesis was written, and you look at when the New Testament letters are written, uh centuries apart, and yet the way they're tied together through what they say, uh, the prophecies of the Old Testament and how they're fulfilled in the New Testament, uh, there is just a connection there that um could only have come from God Himself and through the Spirit who inspired people to record it along the way. Uh, there's a unity there that uh could not have been invented by humans.

SPEAKER_00 12:04

But do you agree that over the hundreds of years the Bible has been modified and the translation was not perfect? Words or the meanings in Greek uh were different than the Aramaic, and these meanings have been twisted, not intentionally necessary, but over the years they changed the meaning, and now we are reading uh very different version of the initial teachings.

SPEAKER_01 12:38

I certainly think there are some translations which have done that. Um certainly the original manuscripts which uh have been discovered over the years are uh are the word, how those get translated because language is different is very, very critical. That's why we have I don't even know how many translations anymore. There's dozens of translations, uh some much more accurate than others, but that's where uh biblical study and biblical training becomes very important to learn how to understand and and dis discover what the original meaning was. And that's that's a difficult task. And um we've unfortunately we have made uh getting ministerial degrees and other degrees um increasingly easy online and everything else, you know, ign ignoring uh Hebrew and Greek and Aramaic and all the languages of the Bible, and and and the further away you get from that, the more likely there is to be mistakes. But uh I still think there are some translations which are uh as accurate as can be uh and and that have been been blessed by God over the over the course of the years to uh to lead people to him.

SPEAKER_00 13:55

Yes, I mean there is no doubt there is a lot of good content in their teachings that people, if live by living by those precepts, will um bring much more um purity and positiveness in in the world. But unfortunately, not everyone is is willing to to look at those uh teachings and implement them in their in their daily life.

SPEAKER_01 14:23

Exactly right. And that's that's the story of scripture. Not not everybody will uh will respond and not everybody will will choose to follow. Uh it's I think we call that uh self-will. We love to live with our own self and our own will.

SPEAKER_00 14:38

Yes. And Curry, your uh book, um When the Going Gets Tough, explores the life of uh Joseph in Genesis 37, 50, showing how betrayal and hardship can become stepping stones of faith. What drew you specifically to Joseph as a model for navigating suffering?

SPEAKER_01 14:59

We read it first just as a boy, what a great story. I mean, Joseph and the amazing technical dream code as a stage play was built on that story. It's just an amazing story. But when we understand that it's it's part of the way God worked through through a chosen family, we we realize that what mattered was the attitude that Joseph maintained, and it was an attitude of faith. Uh and it makes it makes it very, very clear that the tough times, the the pits of life, if you will, that we find ourselves in uh are not in themselves defeat. They're not necessarily signs that God is against us. It's a sign that uh something is happening in our life, and it's a challenge to our faith. And those are the times in which we grow. In each one of the difficult times Joseph had uh, he experienced growth. And he never lost his faith in the fact that somehow God was involved in all of this. And so the whole the reason I think people become so enamored with that Joseph's story is uh whatever he's experienced, most of us have experienced. For every step forward, he took two steps backward, you know, betrayed by his brothers, thrown in a pit, sold away, away from his family. Um certainly at times I'm sure he's felt bitter bitterness towards his family. And yet when they were reunited and they feared that he was going to uh pay them back, uh he's able to forgive them and say, let's get together as a family and move forward. And um, I think that's that's the stuff we all wish. Well, I I wish I had that. And so it's to me, it's a lesson and a journey in how to handle those those tough times and not to lose faith, even if we don't understand what's going on at the time. I'm sure when Joseph was in the pit, he never dreamed he'd be uh second in command of a great nation. Um, but he knew that somehow his God was still with him. And I think that's that's the anchor point that we need to be able to grab onto and and try to emulate ourselves.

SPEAKER_00 16:57

Yes, and I think that in the modern society we can um summarize that into a very short form, let go and let God in.

SPEAKER_01 17:07

I think that's when it's used in that context, I think that's very, very true. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 17:13

And I I had a recent interview with someone who goes to Tanzania and spends time with uh the Maasai. And based on um her explanations, those guys, except having the phones to communicate with the world, their lifestyle is pretty much the same as Joseph's lifestyle hundreds of years ago, uh, because they live off the land with um their community, with their families, and they don't rely on anyone else. I mean, there is tourism these days, of course, but other than that, I think they will be one of the few who will survive in this world if the modern amenities will be taken away from the world itself.

SPEAKER_01 18:01

I think that's very true. And I uh I become in in the last number of years become very interested in supporting and being in touch with persecuted Christians around the world, and that that's true for so many of them. We it's so easy for us, uh us here in America, with all of our conveniences, to kind of not realize um what's most important in life and the things that we can do without. And that uh every time I read of uh difficult situations, or I I have some connections with some pastors over in Kenya, and when I see the hunger they have just for having a copy of the word, or the hunger they have for uh me just trying to teach them something from the scriptures, uh it it it it almost embarrasses me to think of all I have. You know, I've got a stack of Bibles and different translations and study books that that fill shelves, and they their hunger for the simple basic necessities of life, uh spiritual food, physical food, uh, and and just to know that uh that there's a God who cares for them is is an amazing thing. So you you're absolutely right. Things things get in the way of uh uh of what is really essential and important.

SPEAKER_00 19:21

Yes, and and Sylvia also mentioned that after she came back from Tanzania and walk into uh a shopping mall in Austria during Christmas time, she was so overwhelmed that she had to leave because after so much peace and quietness and nature over there, and she came to that crowded space and she couldn't take it anymore. She had to, you know, disengage from the busyness of the world and you know give herself some time to to adjust.

SPEAKER_01 19:55

Yeah, I that would not surprise me. I I I would think it would be very, very difficult, which is why some people go over there and never come back. They they they want to live there and and be with those people. And I think that uh I those people, I don't mean that negatively, just with um with people who live in that situation, and um in some ways it might not hurt all of us to have that experience and and and just get back into the again the core the core issue of what it means to be alive.

SPEAKER_00 20:27

Yes, and Curry, a moment ago you mentioned the many copies of the Bible. You have various, you know, maybe translations. Do you have the Ethiopian Bible, which is considered the most complete and the the least altered?

SPEAKER_01 20:44

I do not have a copy of the Ethiopian Bible. Uh I have ordered uh Bibles for people in Kenya that in and it might uh depending on their language, of course, the the it's the translation varies, but I believe one of them might have been uh in the Ethiopian language, although I'm not sure. Again, I've ordered several for several different churches in different locations, and Kenya has different languages, so uh, but I do not personally have one, no.

SPEAKER_00 21:12

Yeah, I mean, for those who are listening, uh the Ethiopian Bible has 88 books, uh, is the most complete one, at least is considered the most complete one with uh a very um clear translation in terms of words which have been altered uh over the years and can be uh purchased on uh on Amazon. So um I encourage you to take it or buy it and then compare with the versions you have and see if you find any new nuances of the teachings and the gospels.

SPEAKER_01 21:46

Appreciate that. I'll I will have to take a look at that. Yes, thank you.

SPEAKER_00 21:51

Curry, you also written A Nation under God reflections from Jeremiah. What parallels do you see between uh him uh Or his time in contemporary society.

(Cont.) Faith, Calling & the War Between Good and Evil - Pastor Curry Pikkaard

SPEAKER_01 22:05

It's the basic struggle between uh what does it mean to be a a good and godly ruler. And um Jeremiah had the unenviable task of uh confronting Israel's rulers and reminding them uh who and whose they were. And um I think we need to continue to be reminded of um what does it mean not only to lead, and there's all kinds of leadership courses, and uh what are the keys to good leadership, but to be a Christian, to be godly and to lead, there are certain fundamental basic principles that uh that need to be followed. And in in the book, I simply try to lift out those passages in Jeremiah where God speaks through him and says that this is the principle you must follow. Uh if you're a ruler, this is what you must do. Uh and it's so easy uh in today's politics, no matter what country, to uh to decide what we what we think is right. Uh we do the party platforms and everything else, and and what we think is right and what so-and-so thinks is right, and to give in to pressure. When the starting point for a god for somebody who wants to be a godly ruler is what does God say about this issue? What does God say about how I rule? And the interesting thing about uh godly leadership is it doesn't necessarily refer to somebody who's in a seat of power. Uh the the normal average person who may never hold an office can be a godly leader based upon how they live and how they how they form the framework for uh for their faith and for for their living. So um I don't think specifically answered what you were looking for, but that that's the thrust of as I went through Jeremiah, I just tried to pick those passages that said, if you're going to be godly, this is the principle to remember.

SPEAKER_00 24:01

And because you mentioned people in office and in power and looking at what's going on around us, and not only in the North America, but all over the world, do you see this struggle as a war between good and evil? And in in other ways, in other words, the duality within us being portrayed and put in perspective out there for everyone to see?

SPEAKER_01 24:33

Yeah, I think your original phrase is the the war between good and evil is certainly taking place. I think it's taking place uh between governments, it's taking place within governments, it's taking place between political parties and divisions. Uh, but I think that's also because it takes place within us. And the Apostle Paul talks about man, the very things I want to do, I don't do, and the things I don't want to do, I do do, and there's no help in me. And then he goes in, of course, to the salvation message. But uh I think how we handle the war within ourselves will also determine how it is we handle the battle we see taking place in the world. But I have no doubt whatsoever that there is an evil force in the world. And the scripture makes that very, very clear. Ephesians 6 talks about how to how to do battle with that, but uh I think it's being manifest uh very, very clearly, and again, not just in any one country, but in uh most any country right now, uh that kind of battle is taking place.

SPEAKER_00 25:35

And because you are a man of faith, of course, you are looking at this struggle from a spiritual and religious perspective. How do you see the outcome and do you see it close or far in the future affecting us deeply, or will be something we'll be able to move forward with not that much impact on our psyche and um our communities?

SPEAKER_01 26:10

Boy, it could take all day to deal with that, but I think the book of Revelation to me uh when properly understood, uh tells us that indeed uh there will be a colonation coming, uh, and that things will get worse before they get better. In fact, not too long ago, I preached a sermon, uh, You Ain't Seen Nothing Yet. And the whole idea was it says it's going to get worse and these types of things will happen, but guess what? It's gonna be worse than that, and worse than that, and yet ultimately in the final end, there is this this whole renewal that that takes place. So uh I personally don't think it's close. Are we getting closer? Obviously, yes. Uh but as I understand what uh what Revelation has to say is that uh there's a whole lot worse yet to come. Uh the as the world begins to sort of dissemble and fall apart and fall away, and the battles that take place, the natural disasters that happen, the storms, some of that may be increasing, but there'll be much more intensity to that uh before the great and and glorious or dreadful day, depending on where faith is, that uh that Christ returns and this renewal and talks about new heaven and new earth. So it ends very, very hopeful. Um, but I think we have a long journey yet before we get there, and the challenge for the people of faith is to live faith even in the midst of that.

SPEAKER_00 27:36

And based on what you believe and based on your experience, is there any space for thinking and believing that we are no we are not the only ones in the world, in this universe, and other species exist because people are talking so much about UFOs and extraterrestrial life these days.

SPEAKER_01 28:26

And he's got a message for them, they know that. Um I just believe that the earth is a special place uh that doesn't rule out maybe that there could be others out there. Um it's hard to understand how when we the more we learn about space, but I uh I believe the earth is special and we need to understand and recognize that uh and that it's special to be able to be who we are and in and to be human. So uh I I I don't I just don't get too wrapped up in that.

SPEAKER_00 29:00

Um so in other words, if someone like an extraterrestrial will show up in front of you tomorrow, not a hologram, holographic uh uh 3D um optical illusion, but a real guy, a real personal, your entity, being. Would you say hi, welcome to our church, or you are going to run away?

SPEAKER_01 29:30

I would be delighted to sit down and chat and find out about his life and where he's from and what life is like in that that other world that he comes from.

SPEAKER_00 29:40

Perfect. So there is still hope for these guys to come and have contact with us. Good. Curry, after more than 40 years of uh pastoral ministry, what is the most common spiritual struggle you see people face and has it changed over the decades?

SPEAKER_01 30:02

I don't know if it's changed over the decades. Uh the the intensity might have changed, but uh I think uh and it's but kind of led to the to the book on When the Going Gets Tough, uh I think the struggle is that life is difficult. Um we we people who use the Bible as their source for life and living see all the great promises that are there and that we believe uh are true, and yet like Joseph, we'll we'll move forward and think we're making progress and the things are good, and then bam, something happens, and and suddenly we have something we don't know how to deal with it, we don't know what to make of it. And um, there are so many voices as as communication, the ability to communicate has expanded, and we have this instant communication society. So many other voices come and say, Well, this is what it means, and this is what it means. And so it's difficult to put an anchor down and say, This is what I believe, and and hang on to that. And and I think that's probably what's gotten more difficult is yeah, it's always it's tough. I mean, World War I was tough, and World War II and depression, all those were tough times. Um, but I think there's just so much, so much noise and so many voices coming at us that it's difficult to deal with the tough times and tough situations of life and to hold faith and to to move through and not let them not let them defeat us and and do us in.

SPEAKER_00 31:34

Indeed. And based on the experience I had with my guests on this podcast, about 70% of them uh turned towards their spiritual uh path and calling after they reach uh rock bottom. Until then, they didn't want to hear any messages, they didn't know how to take those messages, understand them, process them. And only 30% were born with certain abilities where they were able to see angels or receive messages from their uh you know ancestors, which even if at that time they didn't know what they were, they consider everything normal. Only later in life they um they're able to handle this type of interaction. But again, in 70 uh 30 percent, I don't know if this type of people with uh natural skills came to you asking for advice and not knowing how to handle this type of um interactions with the spirit from from the other side. Uh, have you had these type of uh experiences?

SPEAKER_01 32:42

Uh not uh not too many of them. No, and uh uh I had not heard statistics like that, but it it it it doesn't surprise me. Uh one of the things I one of the little snippets of phrases that I would use because of the Joseph story is uh the one the one nice thing about a pit is there's only one way to look, and that's up. And I and when you mention rock bottom, I think that's that's what happens. Certainly uh people with addictions, uh be it alcoholic or drug addiction, their recovery stories will say that. Until they were at rock bottom, uh they they just they couldn't make it through. And so uh when we get that sense of helplessness, uh somehow uh we're we're open to to what it takes to to move forward and and and try to be on a path of healing.

SPEAKER_00 33:34

Yes, indeed. And and Kerry, I want to ask you a question that might trigger some people and is about the mega churches. I personally never heard of one which wasn't involved in in a scandal, and mainly it's related to fine to financial uh scandal, you know, they they grab so much money. Do you think that they still bring value to people? Do they bring the real faith or is just something fake for them to get um quickly rich? Again, without judgment, without it's just facts.

SPEAKER_01 34:15

I certainly have been far too many uh of the churches you describe who have who have followed that path, where either the uh the lead pastor has uh fallen morally or has gotten involved in financial difficulties, or the church has gone down the wrong path. Um but I would not want to lump every large or mega church in that category. I think some of them indeed uh are able to do good, and in fact, good in ways that perhaps smaller churches can't because of the resources that they have and muster and the influence that that they can have. I think the issue becomes, and we've sort of talked about it before, but the the larger the church, the better known the pastor, the greater the attack comes from the enemy. And he'll find whatever way he can to get in there and to uh to disturb things. And um I used to think, boy, wouldn't it be nice to be a pastor of a large church like that? And then as I began to see what was happening, I thought, thank you, Lord, for not putting me in that position because I can't imagine the kinds of pressures and temptations that come with uh with that kind of power and prestige that that come along with that. And power and prestige are hard things to handle because uh you're put up on a pedestal and you hear all these things people say, and pretty soon it's easy to start to believe them. And once we do that, we get off track, and that's when those things happen. So, yes, there have been some tragic things from many of those uh large church leaders and large churches, but uh there are some that uh can do great good and still do great good.

SPEAKER_00 35:56

Yes, we can still have uh a big impact uh without um, you know, as you said, being on a on a pedestal. We can stay humble, rooted, uh, ask God to uh take care of us and bring to us those who are in real need. And I recently uh heard a story from the 80s. Uh it was a musicianslash uh composer Michael uh Kretzu from my native uh Romania, which composed amazing uh music. He combined various uh styles never heard of uh before by the public. He composed music for uh you know Phil Collins and all the other big names, but he never went public with his name. He never went, uh he never had concerts, public life concerts. He stayed in the background, he composed in a small studio, he made millions of dollars. He had you know the potential fame and the riches to go out there and say it's me, I arrived, but he never done that. And he said, You don't believe how much freedom I have when I go in a supermarket or in a music store, and I can buy my own CDs without people recognizing me. I don't care about recognition. I'm impacting people through my music. My name is not important, my music is important.

SPEAKER_01 37:27

That's that's powerful, exactly. And the the tragedy is if we understand the Christian life uh correctly, that's the way we ought to be. Uh the the letter in Philippians talks about have this mind among you, and it talks about Christ, Christ's humility, and and and and just in Paul's letters is filled with how we think about others, and I think there's a lot of truth in that. It's not it's not about us, it's not about me. Uh it's it's it's something far far greater than that. So that that's a marvelous story, and I I admire that immensely.

SPEAKER_00 38:02

And do you agree? So, do we agree then that teachings is not they're not about Jesus, but is about teachings, his teachings. This is what he wanted, in fact, to tell us. It's not about me as a person, is about what I'm trying to teach you, what my father told me to teach you. Do we agree on that?

SPEAKER_01 38:23

Certainly, he he taught what the father wanted him to teach, absolutely. And uh what what I would add, though, I think is that it does impact me because it does tell me how I ought to live and the attitude I ought to have. Uh, Paul talks about being transformed by the renewal of your mind, so it means there's a whole different way of thinking, but but certainly uh Jesus came to to teach what the father taught him. And what the father taught him was was the divine word, the one going back kind of where we began, the one who created the world and all of its laws and motions knows how best to live in harmony with that world and and to be at peace. Yeah you know, Henry Ford designed an automobile, he knows best, he knows better than I do how to how to run how to fix an automobile when it breaks. And the creator of the world certainly knows uh how best to live in harmony in that world.

SPEAKER_00 39:17

Yes, indeed. And Curry, if you could distill everything you've learned across five decades of ministry into one piece of advice for someone just starting out in pastoral leadership, what uh would it be?

SPEAKER_01 39:32

It's a really good question. I think if particularly if they're just beginning in in pastoral ministry, it would be uh never forget that the most important part of your ministry is your personal walk with Jesus first and foremost. Secondly, your relationship with your family, and then thirdly to do your pastoral leadership. Uh it's it's very easy to lose that sense of priorities, but I think that's that's the order. Uh, you if you lose your relationship with Jesus, uh you'll lose your basis of of who you are. Uh if you lose touch with your family, your witness is no longer credible. And so I I think that's I think that's a biblical order.

SPEAKER_00 40:17

And would you allow me to add one more? Sure. Be a teacher and a student at the same time.

SPEAKER_01 40:25

Oh, absolutely. I like that. That's very, very true. I'm learning as much, if not more, now than than I was when I was busily engaged in doing uh ministry full time, and just uh because of the things I'm involved in and uh the little bit extra time that I have that I didn't have when I was so busy.

SPEAKER_00 40:45

Yes, and what you are doing could be, you know, spiritually uh draining. What are the the methods, the approach you stay sane physically, mentally, and what you'd suggest uh for others in in the same situation?

SPEAKER_01 41:00

I think uh finding a system of spiritual disciplines, and there's all kinds of books out there on all of that, but finding the ones that work and sticking with them and realizing that they they change over the year, but again, it it comes to that your own relationship first. So find find some sort of spiritual discipline that you can can do and live by. Uh, I say each and every day, but we all there are days when we we don't get at it. I and I admit that I don't want to come off as as perfect, but I think we we need a spiritual discipline, so we stay in tune and we stay in touch, and that that's that's where it begins. Uh and and then I think um once that's established, that that's a reminder that um anything that's important flow flows out of this. Uh I have a few prayers that I utilize um in the in the course of my daily disciplines that really uh uh basically say uh sort of Jesus prayer, Lord, not my will, but but yours be done. And so I I want to be receptive to you today uh and and recognize that it doesn't always go smoothly, doesn't always go there, doesn't always go well, but if you're on the path of following, it will it will lead where you're supposed to be. But I I just I'm a firm believer in needing some sort of spiritual discipline beyond all doubts.

SPEAKER_00 42:26

Yes, baby steps will take us to a huge leap in you know months, years, who knows? But we need those baby steps.

SPEAKER_01 42:35

Absolutely. Yep, absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 42:38

Curry, anything else you'd like to mention about your programs and uh what uh you are offering to the world these days?

SPEAKER_01 42:45

Oh well, thank you. Uh, and thank you again for the opportunity to be sharing. Um my words would simply be from my perspective that uh a life of a life of faith, a life based upon God's word, uh a path of following Jesus is is so critically important. Um and when when the tough times of life hit, um we don't abandon that faith, but we we cling to it and we we use that as a as a period of growth. Again, when we're in the pit, we look up. And when we look up, it's amazing what we will see. And uh I I'm I feel richly blessed, and it's nothing I've done. And again, there are opportunities that have come to me uh to realize that here I am uh out of full-time ministry for over 10 years, and uh I get to do Zoom sessions with pastors in Kenya and correspond with them and see the work that they do and see uh what they have to live with and deal with, and yet the ministry that they do, uh uh ministry uh I do it as well with some in Pakistan, all because of the plus side of our technology. There's a lot of negative to our technology, but there's a whole new world out there that's uh exciting to be a part of, and so uh any any way that uh any message I can give, be it in writing or speaking, um, or or teaching or preaching or through through podcasts that can encourage somebody in a life of faith uh to to seek Jesus. Uh I'm grateful for the opportunity and delighted to be able to do that.

SPEAKER_00 44:25

Thank you very much uh for all your work, for all your uh effort uh over the 50, 40, 50 years of um ministerial um work. Thank you very much.

SPEAKER_01 44:35

Well, thank you, and again, thank you for the opportunity.

SPEAKER_00 44:38

And uh to my viewers, thank you for uh watching, share it, uh, leave a comment, visit the links I mentioned at the beginning of uh the interview, and until next time, love and gratitude.

SPEAKER_01 44:50

Blessings.