Training and inspiration in neuropsychology

This is the first of a series of podcasts in conversation with practicing clinicians. This week, I talk to Will Curvis and Lawson Falshaw about how their interest in neuropsychology has developed. 

Transcript

Ingram Wright  1:27  
So welcome, both of you. So this podcast is at present unnamed, but it will have a name by the time it goes out. I just have to decide on one but I'm very grateful to both of you for for turning up during your leave. And we're going to start with some introductions. So I'm Ingram Wright. I'm hosting this podcast today. Where do you want to start? Introduce yourself? Yep. Hi.

Will Curvis  1:51  
So I'm Wilco service. I'm a clinical psychologist up in the northwest of England. And so I work part time in a brain injury rehab service, and I also work part time for the clinical doctorate programme up at Lancaster University.

Ingram Wright  2:05  
Welcome well, and Lawson. Yep.

Lawson Falshaw  2:10  
Hi, my name is Lawson and I am a first year trainee clinical psychologist on the Oxford course. And I'm currently on a placement in an acute adult inpatient mental health Ward and also a memory service. And I also have the role of the sidewalk on the side where I am the division of neuro psychology pre qualified pre qualification representative.

Ingram Wright  2:34  
Great. So Lawson we'd stumbled across each other, didn't we, when we're talking about routes into training, and you're a member of a group who are looking at pre qualification issues in the relationship with neuro psychology? Great,

Lawson Falshaw  2:47  
yeah. Yeah, exactly. Especially with COVID. And everything at the moment is been real challenges in terms of how you can get your competencies met as a trainee, with such a big push of, you know, sort of remote working and things like that. So big focus on that at the moment.

Ingram Wright  3:02  
Great. I my first question to both of you, and I guess we got to choose one of you to start off and maybe you could start Well, what got you interested in neuro psychology, neuro psychological approaches.

Will Curvis  3:17  
It was through training, actually. So through through my clinical psychology training, I, when I started, I knew nothing about neuro psychology, I'd never worked in any kind of neuro psychology service before training in my background was in I kept Learning Disability Services. So I knew nothing about probably even couldn't really told you much about what neuro psychology was. By halfway through training, I did a placement in a community new rehab team. And I kind of remember going into that a little bit terrified, because I just had no idea what I would be doing, what the expectations will be. I had a brilliant supervisor, though, who I think really, really helped to just sell why this stuff was interesting. And she was very enthusiastic and kind of, yeah, excited about the unique role that we kind of play in that sort of arena. And I think I remember looking back and and I remember really enjoying working as part of a multidisciplinary team. That was probably the first time I'd ever really got to work alongside OTS and occupational therapists and physiotherapists and things like that. So it was that side of it that I remember really enjoying. And I remember just finding it super interesting to kind of be in this role where you were able to do a bit of therapeutic work, you were there to help people through some really difficult stuff. But there was a bit more of a focus as well on formulating and understanding what was going on for somebody. And I think it was just the right placement at the right time for me during training and it just really was really interesting. So for my specialist placement, I was keen to do a bit more of that kind of stuff. So I went working in an acute neuro rehab Ward at hospital. So that was kind of at the more earliest stages of people's rehabilitation journey. And that really? Yeah, I think from that it really kind of hooked me into to work in into more medical sort of settings and working as part of as part of a multidisciplinary team. And just thinking about what kind of roles we can play in those kinds of arenas really,

Ingram Wright  5:15  
you started with, with close to zero interest in euro when you when you embarked on the course is that is that right?

Will Curvis  5:23  
probably less than zero,

Ingram Wright  5:24  
less than zero.

Will Curvis  5:26  
I was probably a bit. Yeah, I just wasn't what I saw myself doing it, you know, I, I kind of had this narrative. In my mind, I think that neuro psychology was all about testing, it was all about turning up in your fancy suit with a briefcase, and, you know, doing doing all these hours and hours of assessments, and it just didn't appeal to me. And I think it was only when I kind of got out into the real world that I suppose a little bit with it, you know, working in the community, and seeing how these ideas could be brought into play to really help people that it started connecting with what I really did care about, you know, for me, I'm really passionate about sort of social context and thinking about how we can help think about somebodies sort of wider situation as part of the formulation and in the community and I was working in was in quite a deprived area. So there was loads of opportunity to think about how we integrate the kind of the context into a formulation, but also then thinking about, well, what's happened to this person? And what do we know about, for example, the nature of their brain injury? And how can we fit that together into a way that helps us make sense of what's going on?

Ingram Wright  6:40  
So you've got quite a breadth of interest, haven't you? It's not it's not a narrow, narrow perspective. It's not just about diagnostic assessments and tests is, is clearly what you're saying and excites you about your your practice at the moment. What about you, Lawson.

Lawson Falshaw  6:56  
I think it's quite interesting, because there are some similar themes. In my experience, really, my first real practical experience of working in euro only happens when I got into the final year of my MCI. And so at that point, it was my fourth year of undergraduate study. And, and before that, I was just kind of interested in everything in in psychology. And then in my MC year, we had this opportunity to do a placement. And I remember I was looking through the, the options for placements. And I saw this, this opportunity to join a new row community. neuro rehab MDT in North London. And, and I was like, Okay, this sounds really interesting. And so I signed up for that, that placement. And then when I got there, I also had amazing supervisor, who really helps bridge that gap between what I've been studying and then how that works in practice, which was really helpful. And, and so I think I did go in as well with this kind of expectation that it would be lots of testing. But then I think when I actually got to being there, I was like, wow, you can do all this testing with so many people, and you're doing similar tests, but everybody's response is different. And that was what really made me think, gosh, wow, every bit every day in this field is probably going to be slightly different. It's going to be offering you something new. And it wasn't just that, that it also points me to think about that social context that you mentioned. Well. So when I was observing lots of these different neurologic neuropsychological tests and being administered, I was thinking, Okay, well, some of these tests seem like they're almost designed for certain populations. And why is it that in in this certain test, you're you're kind of using a stimulus, which seems to be something that you're much more likely to encounter in kind of Western culture compared to other cultures and, and how that might impact somebody's performance. If they're, you know, from North London, and from a really diverse bar. I think that that was something which really piqued my curiosity. And, and I guess it was just that, that that supervision, and then seeing it work in practice and seeing how how varied the work was. I think it really fascinated me. And then since then, I guess I just thought when I started training, that I wanted to pursue this a little bit more. So I expressed an interest in my course to have knee replacements. And so now I'm working in a memory service, my older adults placement. And again, I'm, I'm kind of seeing it, it's another neuro setting that's in the community. And there are some similarities and differences. But again, these themes of the social context and being able to sort of put these things into practice is it has been really helpful for kind of, in that sense of the perspective of journeying towards being a psychologist. It's

Ingram Wright  9:51  
really it's it's interesting, you both mentioned that because I guess, I guess sort of a broader interest in social context in the sort of cultural biases that you're Referring to Lawson is often what puts people off new row because they think about neuro being too narrow too biassed too culturally specific in its sort of orientation. But it sounds like both of you have managed to sort of come up with a way of thinking about neuro psychology that is much broader than that, and addresses some of those concerns. What you think about that? Well,

Will Curvis  10:22  
I think, for me hearing loss and talk about that, like I completely gave up saying that, for me, it's about, it's about advocacy, I think, you know, I think if you're working with somebody with a health condition, or a brain injury, or some sort of neurological problem, often is coming in looking at that, from a neuropsychological perspective, you're highlighting need that might otherwise get overlooked. And I think often that is wrapped up in social contacts, you know, somebody is perhaps not in a position where those needs are being identified by other professionals or by by, you know, anyone else in the system, I think often we're in a really, really strong position to be able to say, actually, this, this person's struggling with x, y, Zed, and this is the kind of help they need, you know, and I think for me that that's, that's why it kind of, I think, probably attracted my interest in the inverse list, because that's a big part of what our role is, as a clinical psychologist is to is to help people to understand what's going on for them, but it's also to help the system understand and to help them as a system and whatever system that might be the health system, or the education system, or whatever systems people are connected into. So I think we can play a really important role in helping people's needs be kind of flicked on and identified.

Ingram Wright  11:39  
Do you think there are things that I was thinking specifically last? And I guess about early phases in training? Do you think there are things that put people off and interested in your psychology?

Lawson Falshaw  11:49  
So it's interesting that you mentioned that because I've spoken to a couple of people on my course about this. And I do get this impression that it's seen as something very separate to to the rest of psychology. And I wonder if sometimes this is around how neuro psychology is taught about how it's always a separate module. And maybe, you know, I guess one thing, which I've reflected upon is that you can be working with somebody who has depression, or maybe, who has experiences of hearing voices maybe and how that can affect, for example, their attention. But that doesn't mean that, hey, they've got a neurological condition, actually, you know, you still need to consider an understanding of cognition, even if you might not directly be working with somebody with, for example, a brain injury. I think that there's something about it being taught. And this is what people in my courses said as well, something about how it's always taught is very separate, which I think might make it give him my cause this impression that maybe it's in a kind of inaccessible, it's only separate testing that you do if you're working in euro settings.

Ingram Wright  12:50  
Yeah, yeah. You've talked about I mean, we talked a little bit offline about the sort of cognitive aspects of teaching, but also the cognitive in, say, CBT, and how cognition and euro are often bundled together as if they're the same thing. But I guess what you're talking about is considering cognition or cognitive factors that that might co occur with, with with with various types of psychological distress or mental ill health is something we might be able to consider outside of a conventional neuro psychology framework.

Lawson Falshaw  13:23  
Absolutely, I do think so I think that's something that's definitely come up in, in training and being on placement is that actually need to not just be thinking about distress, but also be thinking about, okay, when somebody is distressed, then what might be they be thinking about if we're doing CBT? And they're really focused on negative thoughts, then, if, you know, if we're going to be thinking about doing I don't know, relaxation techniques, or even mindfulness? Well, well, how is that working? Is it the mindfulness based on moving the attention, which is a cognitive thing? Yes, which then moves the attention away from ruminating on negative aspects of what's going on, and maybe, you know, focusing on the present and how that shift in attention is really linked to the distress that someone is experiencing.

Will Curvis  14:11  
I just wanted to add in Africa, I think that the, the approach, which we're trying to take our land customers to try and integrate some of the dinero teach in a bit more, spread a bit more through training. So it taps into different placements. I think for that reason, and I do a session, just as our trainees are starting their adult mental health block where we basically talk about

Lawson Falshaw  14:33  
how how

Will Curvis  14:36  
neuropsychological type difficulties for example, problems with attention or memory might play out in a mental health setting. And for me, it comes back to that kind of aplicaci sort of role again, because I think how many times have we heard of people you know, dropping out of therapy because they forgot appointments or you know, not coming to sessions or not engaging with it and, and I think for being part of that sort of formulation process for all of us if whether we're working in neuropsychology To settings or not, I think part of that formulation process should be about asking ourselves the question of what else might be going on here. But might be, is this to do with, you know, the more psychological mood type factors? Or could this be because of some sort of, you know, more cognitive impairment type of processes going on?

Ingram Wright  15:20  
Do you think we've sort of talked a bit about sort of cognitive approaches that sit very nicely alongside, you know, more conventional, clinical psychological practice? And that seems entirely reasonable, it sort of becomes slightly less comfortable when we talk about brain mechanisms that might underpin psychological distress, or might underpin some mental health conditions that have been due to those to those this teaching around that sit comfortably with you? Or is it something that you feel is more problematic in terms of its place in training? I don't know. Awesome, whether you've had any experience of of that training as yet. That kind of training or that kind of approach to understanding mental health?

Lawson Falshaw  16:03  
Yeah, I think so. I think on my course, there is definitely a push of even if you're, you're not if it's not, you know, I don't know, a set session of training on, you know, from the neuro psychology stream, if it's something that is maybe for adult mental health. And if you're thinking about different conditions, kind of thinking about how the cognition might be affected as well. I think that I have seen that being more interweaves now. And I think that that is much more helpful in seeing how the two might be linked and actually, might not actually be separate at all. Yeah.

Ingram Wright  16:34  
So it's the separateness and it's problematic, isn't it? So to sue, I remember, way back when, when the teaching that I had on my declared included sort of a biological basis for schizophrenia, and things like that. And that was entirely separate to all the other teaching that we had. And it created this sense of this being knowledge that's based in it in a particular silo. And that's rather separate in order not to be integrated with other things. I don't know it sounds well as though the approach that you take in Lancaster is rather different to that times changed.

Will Curvis  17:04  
Maybe maybe a little bit, I'm not saying we've got it perfect. But, you know, I think the ethos of the programme as a whole is very much like social constructionist type of kind of ideas around. You know, I think we probably do stay away from from more. Kind of more and more simplistic biological explanations are unemployed. I think we're probably much more tuned in to things like social factors and experience, but I think I don't I don't know if what you guys think. But for me, I don't think that needs to be separate from from more neuropsychological models, and we all have brains. And fundamentally, whatever feelings we have, or whatever problems were experienced, and come down to what's going on in neurons, you know, it all comes down to that on some level. So I think we can I think it's, I think, for me, it's perfectly possible to think about, for example, trauma and adversity and context, when we're understanding why somebody might be experiencing difficulties they're experiencing. But I think we can also use ideas from, for example, neuropsychological assessment to make sense of, Okay, this might be feeding into that problem, or this might be a core part of the problem, if somebody has problems paying attention or planning or, you know, managing the emotions at more neurological kind of level. So I don't think the things the ideas need to be separate, I think it is perfectly possible to bring those together into a way that can be used to help people make sense of what what they've got going on.

Lawson Falshaw  18:37  
I think another thing which I've kind of reflected, sorry,

Ingram Wright  18:40  
you go ahead.

Lawson Falshaw  18:40  
I think another thing that I've reflected upon in training is that sometimes, and also, maybe the family members and the carers of somebody who does have a neurological condition, or even, I'm just thinking about my work in the memory service if you're working with carers of somebody who has dementia, and in that case, you're thinking of working with somebody who's got sort of a neuro base condition, although at the same time, it can still have an effect of the mental health of somebody close to them. So thinking about that social context as well. And not necessarily just within an individual, but also between individuals too.

Will Curvis  19:12  
Yeah, I think I think he made me think they asked Steve, where the heads work around like narrative approaches to brain injury. And I think that for me, it was probably the single most important book I read during training, because I think it helped me to step away from that mindset of neuro psychology being all about testing, you know, all about kind of unpicking these things. And actually, you know, ultimately, it's about people. It's about stories. It's about helping people to tell them stories in a way that is useful in a way that's helpful.

Ingram Wright  19:42  
And you've probably already both surround service implicitly, but one of the questions I plan to ask you is about how we might encourage people to take more of an interest in euro or if they've got an emerging interest, I guess, well, if they don't start with negative interest from the start, there's some emerging interest in euro psychology, what might use a trainee sitting alongside you that would encourage them to, to kind of pursue their interests.

Will Curvis  20:06  
I think our trainees are probably a bit sick of me getting on my soapbox about this stuff from me whether they've heard it before, you know, but I think I think for me, it's it comes down to, if you want to work as a clinical psychologist, these are fundamentally important skills, these aren't these skills that aren't optional, they should be part of your core competencies in a way that doing a good assessment is in a way that doing therapy is in a way that during consultation, as these are part and parcel, I think because no matter what kind of setting you go on to work in whether you work in adult mental health, or Child Services, or brain injury services, or learning disability services, or older ancestors, whatever, whatever arena you end up working in, you're probably going to come up against situations where these kinds of ideas will come in handy. And if you avoid that, then I think you're doing the people that you're there to support a disservice. And I think for me, the biggest challenge for us in in training is is trying to help people push through some of that avoidance because if you don't know much about this stuff, then it is hard, you know, understanding what was that score, race is hard work, you know, it takes a bit of effort, it takes a bit of reading up, it takes a bit of, you know, tech spare time. I think the problem is that sometimes we may be a bit guilty of allowing people to avoid that. And then they go on to qualify, and then they supervise the next round of trainees who then learn to avoid and it just kind of perpetuates I think I'm really kind of passionate about saying yeah, this is this is hard, and it's the might be new to you, and it might not be comfortable. But it's also really important that we know a bit about it. And I think my mentality is that the people who were, you know, the people who are interested in working in neuropsychology specific settings, will go on to do more training in that they'll go on to do one of the post qualification courses, and that's absolutely fine. But I think it's important that we embed forever, everyone who we trained as a clinical psychologist, we embed some of these some of this knowledge and some of these skills.

Ingram Wright  22:05  
It's one of the one of the kind of artefacts, I suppose, of the kind of training regime is that it's create the rather siloed impression of neuro psychological practice and neuro psychological thinking, that is somehow entirely separate from, you know, more conventional clinical psychology services. And so there's a sense in which we're not supposed to think like that outside of neuro psychology service. Whereas as you say, I guess the best endpoint for us in terms of how we shape clinical training would be that everybody kind of has a bit of neuro within their formulation repertoire. Lawson, have you anything to add on that for anything you would say to encourage colleagues sitting beside you are perhaps rather cynical or have an emerging interest in neuro psychology? Yeah,

Lawson Falshaw  22:52  
I guess I was just thinking about that training perspective, and that sometimes it feels a bit like you're having to spinning plates, because you have to think about your research elements of your course. And you've got the placement, and you've got the teaching. And so sometimes it can feel like quite a lot to take on neuro psychology as well, which can be quite complex. But I think, as we were saying, just kind of validating the fact that it might be quite hard. And it might be quite new to some people if it's maybe not been taught in integrated way before, but then just kind of focusing on the fact that exactly if you're going to work in a brain injury unit, or if you're going to, I don't know, work in adult mental health that, that in no matter what the setting, there's some understanding of cognition and the kind of skills that we talk about neuro psychology will be helpful. And if you, you know, don't want to carry on with that, then then that's your decision. But definitely trying to get the core competencies that should be relevant for clinical psychologists is, is really helpful. And I think it can be hard when you're on training courses as well, when you're trying to maybe get your CBT skills up, or maybe your systemic practice, up to up to standard. But I think that certainly initiatives like accreditation of prior learning are really helpful because they make it more accessible and just kind of thinking about going into neuro psychology, it doesn't feel so separate, it feels like you're, you know, it's easier to get into and to get stuck in with really. And so I think that making it as easy as possible for trainees to kind of engage with, like, in that way with the with the API is encouraging for trainees to pursue that

Ingram Wright  24:26  
route. Because there's a there's a volume issue, you're saying, actually, there's a lot crammed into clinical training. And actually, maybe there's a practical need to sort of confine your interest to certain areas just to make that manageable.

Will Curvis  24:39  
And I think one of my, again, one of my other soapbox type speeches is that I think, you know, we would never, we would never in clinical training, we would never do a couple of days of CBT teaching and then so right okay, you now know how to do CBT we would never do that. We see therapy skills as developmental throughout your whole career, you know, but this is the starting point. And then you will carry on learning and developing as you wish qualifying, you should go forward from there. And I think, you know, for me, that's exactly been my journey with, for example, neuropsychological assessment stuff, you know, I'm still constantly learning new stuff constantly going back to what I've done before and thinking, well, we should a bit like that. Or maybe I could bring this in. And I think, yeah, I think sometimes we're a bit guilty of kind of implying that right? You've had a couple of days of teaching on this now you should know it all. And if you don't know it all, then you can't do it, when actually that that to me doesn't make any sense. And I think, yeah, I've been really keen to move away from this idea of, right, you have to do a waste at some point in training. And then that's it, you can do neuropsychology, you know, cuz that, that doesn't doesn't mean anything. You know, it's not equipping people with the skills to solve real world problems. Like I think for me, I'd much rather teach people about critical appraisal of tools that are available, I'd much rather talk about validity and reliability and the kind of concepts that underpin First off, I think that makes more sense to me. Because then when you're faced with challenges in the real world, you know, perhaps a client with a visual impairment or physical impairment, which means they can't do the things that you've you know how to do, it means that you can kind of go through a bit of a problem solving process and have your own, just as you would in any other area or work.

Ingram Wright  26:14  
Yes, the sort of central place that a test might have in the curriculum causes problems for New Age, isn't it? Because it reinforces that impression that it's about a briefcase, with little nice clips on it, we used to have that now, we've just got rucksack simply that you open up and pull out blocks and various things. And we've all got, we've all got to learn how to use that. And that's our neuro done.

Will Curvis  26:37  
Yeah, and, and ultimately, that doesn't teach you anything, it teaches you how to follow instructions to how to administer a test, but that doesn't necessarily equip you with the ability to understand what that means, or how to make meaningful sense of, you know, the scores. And I think, for me, it's, you know, it's all about using the information as part of the formulation. So to do that, well, you have to be able to know what those numbers mean, you have to know who you're comparing it to, you have to know what you know, you have to know a bit about what a normative sample is, for example, you know, so I think if we can, I think anyway, I think if we can teach people and equip people with a bit of that knowledge, I hope that it means that when they do go to do a test that they've not done before they can read the manual and make a bit of sense of it, they can they consider, okay, I know what this test is designed to do. I know what its strengths are, I know what its weaknesses are. And I can choose how I use it in my in my practice. And sometimes that means going a bit off book, doesn't it? You know, sometimes it means adapting tests or using them in ways that are a bit different. But what's important is that you do that with your eyes open, you know why you're doing that? And you know what impact that's going to have? And you know, not to, you know, take those resources as gospel.

Ingram Wright  27:51  
Yes. Thank you. Well, anything to add to that Lawson. I did promise you both, I promise you both an icebreaker and I'm not going to let you off the hook. I know it's rather late in this conversation to be doing an icebreaker. But I was gonna ask with you guys, anything else you want. I thought we do this. And then you can have a little pause. And if there's anything else you kind of wanted to say under the kind of themes that we've been talking about, we can we can add it in at the end. I do want to try this though speaking because when we sort of horrified by the prospects, I think we should embrace it briefly and see if it has any place in a podcast. Are you ready for this? Now I've got some questions. These are forced choice things. So I'm going to present you with two things choices and then we need to choose one I'm going to alternate we'll start with we'll and then we'll then we'll then we'll do Lawson, but I'm gonna I'm gonna ask you, you could do the first one well and then last and just the second one. Okay, so the first one is a confidence interval or reliable change index. That's for you. Well, confidence interval. Excellent loss that you've got Amazon or local shops. Will one sugar or two.

Will Curvis  29:07  
No sugar.

Ingram Wright  29:08  
Isn't that you weren't allowed to choose that.

Will Curvis  29:12  
Okay, well once you get them to minimise that

Ingram Wright  29:14  
minimise that loss and prawn crackers or poppadoms poppadoms that was clearly a difficult decision for you. Yeah, my wrestling wrestling for some time. Yeah. Well, lemon lime,

Will Curvis  29:32  
lemon. Excellent. I was confident. No doubt.

Ingram Wright  29:37  
Lawson Luria on Nebraska.

Lawson Falshaw  29:41  
Nebraska.

Ingram Wright  29:42  
Excellent. Well, whisk always

Will Curvis  29:46  
waits.

Ingram Wright  29:47  
Excellent. Lawson, attention or executive.

Lawson Falshaw  29:52  
Executive.

Will Curvis  29:53  
Excellent.

Ingram Wright  29:55  
Well, right or left hemisphere. Left. Excellent. Lawson this last one, you'll be pleased to know. straight off Tower of London.

Lawson Falshaw  30:07  
Tower of London.

Ingram Wright  30:08  
Excellent. I did have one last one, which was that I'll ask you this will drummer bass,

Lawson Falshaw  30:15  
bass.

Ingram Wright  30:17  
Those of you who are listening to this podcast which everybody will be doing, will not have seen the array of guitars in the background to this conversation on wills wall. And anything. What did you think of that? Anyway, we talked about afterwards, but I'm hoping we've broken the ice. I wondered whether you had any sort of Final Thoughts kind of reflections. And we were particularly thinking about people entering training, taking an interest in euro, trying to cultivate some interest in euro and trying to get away from some of the conventional ways is taught and introduced and thought about. Do either of you have any sort of Final thoughts, reflections on what we've talked about?

Will Curvis  31:01  
And I think for me, my kind of my philosophy, I think and how I've squared, that the kind of the things that I don't really like about neuro with the kind of psychologists that I kind of want to be, I think is is to say that, that you can use these principles to do good stuff with any if you sometimes I think we're at risk of, of maybe if we don't use the skills that we've got in the right way, it can have a pretty negative impact on people's lives. You know, I think, you know, I think, I think if we understand a bit about how different problems can present, then that allows us to be better psychologists because it allows us to ask more questions that allows us to have more hypotheses about what might be going on for someone. And that ultimately might be that might have a really big impact on somebody's life, that that could be literally life and death, you know, but that could be the difference between getting some help and not getting some help. So I think, I think it's really important for us as professionals to have a bit of an understanding of the impact that, for example, cognitive impairments can have across lots of different kinds of settings that we're working in. And I think, even though that is often a bit new for people, and it certainly was new for me coming into training, I think there's loads of good resources and political books, there's good stuff online now, to unpack that a bit. And to learn a bit about it. But fundamentally, I think you learn by by doing it by diving in, you learn by having conversations with people, and you learn by doing it until you get better, right. You know, and I think if we if we avoid that, then that doesn't happen. So don't avoid a

Ingram Wright  32:41  
great loss than anybody final thoughts.

Lawson Falshaw  32:45  
I guess I was just thinking about trainees having lots going on and people who are different at different stages before kind of qualifying even if you're at your undergrad, or maybe if you're at that bottleneck between finishing undergrad and getting on to training, you might have lots going on, and you you constantly need to prove yourself and and i think that you know, even if you haven't had a good experience with neuro neuro in the past, it's always worth thinking that is one of the quickest developing fields in in psychology. So with, you should keep that door open for you. You might like it, you know, and after a few years, because there's constantly all these changes. I think that during training, we talk we talk a lot about how, what psychology is going to look like in 50 years. And I think that, that for neuro psychology, it shouldn't see be seen as so separate to everything else that we that we're doing and just be seen as something on the side. And really just thinking about, it's not just tests, but it's people. We talk a lot about tests, but just asking whether somebody wants to do a test in the first place, when they when you you know, they get referred to you d do you actually want to do the test? Do you want to know the results today? And think about you know, not just the test, but what's going on in that person's life at that moment? And, and how to, you know, deliver the results to them in a sensitive way? If they do want to know them? At that time?

Will Curvis  34:13  
Can I can I add another phone? Or you can you can? You really made me think no Wilson in saying that. Like, I think it's also not just about testing isn't you know it, it's about we can bring a new psychological perspective without ever going to the test cupboard, you know, asking somebody, you know, what do you remember from that TV programming watch last night? Or, you know, can you remember how you got here this morning? Or, you know, can you just have a read of this article for me and see what you think, you know, just really the observational informal stuff that we can pick up from having conversations with people or with families or with professionals in a team or with uh, you know, schools or doctors, whoever, whoever's around? Yeah, I think we can bring a perspective and sometimes that that raises more questions than anything else, but I think that's all right. I think if what we bring them in as well. Actually, this person might have a bit of a memory problem going on. And that might explain why this is happening. You know, I think that can be a really powerful and really powerful perspective to bring into into a person's care. I

Ingram Wright  35:11  
think it's fantastic. I mean, I've been thinking about my own role in training. And actually, you know, having started this conversation thinking this is about trying to encourage people, I think will one of the things that you've said quite powerfully, is that actually we have a responsibility to make that work. We have a responsibility as as, as individuals involved in training or in receipt of training, to take an interest in euro because it can't and shouldn't be avoided. But equally we we also have an obligation, don't we to present neuropsychological thinking in a slightly broader ways and perhaps we've conventionally done in the past, which I think is is your point Lawson about this is a changing field. It's a field where the emphasis has shifted quite dramatically. And it may look rather different to the way it looked or the way it was taught 10 or 15 years ago, and maybe some of us, myself included are a bit stuck in some of those those models of delivery. So thank you, both of you for taking some time out of you know what, what inevitably busy schedules and sacrifice sacrificing some of your study leave Lawson to talk to us today. Thank you very much. 

Lawson Falshaw  36:20  
thanks for having me.