Dr Cliodhna Carroll and Dr Ben Marram in conversation about their experiences in Clinical Neuropsychology Training
Dr Cliodhna Carroll and Dr Ben Marram in conversation about their experiences in Clinical Neuropsychology Training
Ingram Wright: brilliant so welcome both of you, I have clinic Carol and then Marin coming here to talk to me in the euro clinic This is our third.
Ingram Wright: podcast we should be getting used to it by now we've got this nice modern era spaces and comfy chairs so we've gathered around the microphones to have a conversation about training.
Ingram Wright: And there's probably a good time band included for you to maybe introduce yourself spend do you want to you want to go first and tell us who you are.
Ben Marram: Yes, i'm Ben and i'm a clinical psychologist I work at a at the va hospital in Newcastle.
Ben Marram: In a neuro psychology department and I run a service for people affected by rare mitochondrial disease specifically and i'm currently in the middle of training as a clinical neuropsychologist.
Ingram Wright: Fantastic welcome Ben and cleaner.
Cliodhna Carroll: And i'm cleaning Carl I work in the kent's clinical neuropsychology service with people with brain injuries and long term neurological conditions.
Cliodhna Carroll: And like Ben also and job in in the middle of completing your psychology training and almost at the end of training with them the Vive and you in the next month.
Ingram Wright: gosh we're very grateful to you for sparing the precious time cleaner to to join us.
Ingram Wright: In these final moments of your preparation.
Ingram Wright: Thank you welcome both and I guess an obvious question, to start with, we get to talk about training and your experience of training, but.
Ingram Wright: And one of the things we discussed in the first podcast is how you got interested in your psychology in the first place, I mean Do you remember when that when that happened for you clear.
Cliodhna Carroll: I think, for me, so my grandfather, who is a huge huge role model in my life for parkinson's disease and and I was very much involved with my mom with his care when he.
Cliodhna Carroll: And started to deteriorate quite a bit with parkinson's and I was in my late teens at the time and thinking about what I wanted to do with my life.
Cliodhna Carroll: And part of me wanted to do, medicine and then I kind of stumbled upon psychology and I think kind of you know, having cared for somebody with with the neurological condition it.
Cliodhna Carroll: It was quite obvious to be that kind of neuro was the pathway in clinical psychology that I wanted to take.
Cliodhna Carroll: From very, very, very early like in terms of a career of kind of you know, even before starting undergraduate that that was kind of the path that.
Cliodhna Carroll: I was wanted to be on and it's been a bumpy pat a think you know, trying to get on clinical psychology training was probably one of the big kind of bumps in the road like of kind of needing to do clinical psychology to get into working in clinical psychology yeah.
Cliodhna Carroll: i'm sure will probably come back to thinking about that a bit later on, yes.
Ingram Wright: Thank you, thank you, what about what about you Ben.
Ben Marram: Yes, I think I did what most people do is after I finished my undergraduate degree, I was a bit of a loss about what to do.
Ben Marram: And kind of as like I like psychology but where do you even begin in terms of finding a job or kind of knowing how to get into it, so I kind of.
Ben Marram: didn't know a lot about kind of brain injury or neuropsychology and applied for a support worker position and.
Ben Marram: With a company who work with people you'd heard who'd had brain injuries and then.
Ben Marram: I kind of remember my first kind of like person I worked with and in the work that I did that I have quite a significant frontal lobe injury.
Ben Marram: And just absolutely loving experience of working with them and helping them and was able, through that to get some supervision from a.
Ben Marram: Clinical neuropsychologist and kind of that opened my eyes, like this is really interesting and.
Ben Marram: And, like the brain really interested in understanding all of that's really interesting so that like cleaner.
Ben Marram: And then kind of settled on that journey of like yeah kind of clinical psychology and that's the route that i'd go to it.
Ben Marram: And I think I always knew, deep down, and probably end up back in neuropsychology just because I think that initial interest that initial while this is so cool and interesting and such a good area of kind of just pursued that long and very merry puff.
Ingram Wright: See i'm.
Ingram Wright: Sorry, can I go on.
Cliodhna Carroll: I just I was just gonna say I could, I think one of my my initial jobs they kind of after university as well, one was kind of a support working with people with MS.
Cliodhna Carroll: And then, after doing a Masters they ended up working in headway in the third sector with people with brain injuries and.
Cliodhna Carroll: I think it's the people that you meet and their stories that for me just fascinated me it's kind of make a war or can you know kind of you know how come your life has changed, but how are you managing that like kind of.
Cliodhna Carroll: How can we, as people who were supporting you particularly kind of in those earlier rules as a support where he don't necessarily understand the.
Cliodhna Carroll: intricacies of that interaction between cognition and moods and family dynamics, but.
Cliodhna Carroll: You know you still gain that experience I don't know if that was similar for you, and that that kind of like holistic experience that you get without necessarily having been totally understand but at that time.
Ben Marram: yeah definitely I think I mean for me as well, like kind of hold invisible disability idea of you know, this person kind of had this injury and.
Ben Marram: Just that that sense of.
Ben Marram: You know in society, people have these injuries and you wouldn't know kind of thing and being quite struck by that as well and.
Ben Marram: I think it had obviously a lasting effect because it's that I don't know kind of still talk about that now, you know, the idea of physical disability and.
Ben Marram: And and and I think the fact that people are you know very individual stuff are you thinking about all the time and which I think is really interesting.
Ingram Wright: I mean you both changes clinical psychologists, first of all that right.
Ingram Wright: And and clearly, you mentioned that had been a bumpy road i'm wondering if we could talk about some of the bumps so much that you both experienced some bumps along the way.
Ingram Wright: I mean Are there things that have kind of put you off or made you think that neuropsychology maybe wasn't for you.
Cliodhna Carroll: I think.
Cliodhna Carroll: Six Erica psychology is really difficult to get into you and, for me, I had a two to one my undergraduate degree, which you know, is really extra difficult to get into clinical psychology were to do.
Cliodhna Carroll: And for me, one of the appointment moments was doing some research and urologist at home in Ireland join one of my master's degrees and he said why don't you retrain as a medic.
Cliodhna Carroll: and becoming urologist it might be easier than becoming a neuropsychologist.
Cliodhna Carroll: And it was such a kind of fundamental momentary thing for me because I considered it and then I was saying, but I want to be a neuropsychologist you know I don't want you know I didn't want to be a neurologist so going to be a neuroscientist.
Cliodhna Carroll: yeah and and you know, I think, for me, I certainly convoys more into kind of research gain some kind of clinical research gained quite a bit of experience.
Cliodhna Carroll: All the time working with people with neurological conditions and and then you know eventually managed to kind of leg break down the Holy Grail and clinical clinical psychology training.
Ben Marram: yeah I would have had to slightly different remain in that trend is an occupational psychologist initially, because after be computer support worker and brain injury, I worked for.
Ben Marram: A company here called rehab you can then change the momentum skills were that that whole service was about helping people with with brain injury get back into work.
Ben Marram: And being completely honest I just didn't think I was smart enough to get into clinical psychology or good enough because.
Ben Marram: Maybe it was a bit of laziness as well that sense of you know everyone's going for it kind of I don't necessarily want to chase that so so went down the occupational psychology route and ended up.
Ben Marram: Very much kind of training and helping people in the workplace and then realizing that allow that kind of clinical skills so then pursued the clinical psychology route, but kind of only said i'd only ever tried twice and got on the second time, so he ran.
Cliodhna Carroll: Ben.
Ben Marram: But I think you know, always with that view of I think I would always work with people affected by kind of neurological conditions kind of whatever capacity that would be in just very feel very kind of lucky.
Ben Marram: don't use the word lock that I got into clinical training which, in many ways, on lock the doors and your psychology training for me as well.
Ingram Wright: And as phase one of the things that we've got now is a series of recognition in our profession within clinical neuropsychology in the UK that they're.
Ingram Wright: Potentially are different routes into training, I mean do you do you see those kind of changes as being positive in terms of the potential setbacks, you might have experienced.
Ingram Wright: Clean it.
Cliodhna Carroll: I think it's difficult to say isn't it like kind of it's you know I think opening you know open access and broadband access is always a great thing like kind of particularly.
Cliodhna Carroll: You know, for me, like i'm having like I said, having a to to my undergraduate degree.
Cliodhna Carroll: it's it's it's hugely detrimental to your career, despite the fact, you know that you might do other things to compensate for that, and so I think broaden and access to people who are really passionate about working with people with neurological conditions that can never be mad angry.
Ingram Wright: What about you, then I mean you think if there were more direct routes to go from say occupational into into into neuropsychologist a specialty would that have been something that would have been attractive to you.
Ben Marram: I mean, I think I think yeah I think I agree with cleaner and that broadband access is Germany a really, really good thing and.
Ben Marram: I always think you know it's like a bit of an iterative process that every bit of training and it helps towards where you're at, and I think.
Ben Marram: Being really interested in our training recently, and I know clean a very well of kind of thinking about psychological formulation and actually how my clinical psychology training really helps in your psychology as well, so I think.
Ben Marram: You know I think anything you do helps towards it, and I think diversity across the board, is a very good thing for the profession as well.
Ben Marram: So I think there's a does it create a bit of elitism as well that kind of sense of having to do clinical psychology first do you miss something by that potentially as well.
Ben Marram: So I think I think, broadly speaking, it's a really good thing and with the inevitable you'll get those doubts about does it water down the professional in that way, but.
Ingram Wright: You don't really agree with the.
Ben Marram: idea and yeah I think yeah, I think, maybe the doctor helped me get prepared for the statistical elements.
Ben Marram: Maybe the occupational room wouldn't have helped me with.
Ingram Wright: And it gets cleaned up and get i'm reading into what you were saying about how you got started that actually.
Ingram Wright: You had the academic ability and desire to study neuropsychology but needed to be given it a break I supposed to get through that sort of that threshold of getting onto her clinical training course.
Cliodhna Carroll: I think any you know I think kind of undergraduate degrees are different to when I did my undergraduate degree in 20 years ago where.
Cliodhna Carroll: You know, at that time it was like one example, and then you know you mess up on exam are coming to exams at that time and that's it they kind of you've changed you've changed your degree.
Cliodhna Carroll: And yes, and potentially change the course of your life forever.
Cliodhna Carroll: And you know when I looked back neck make it was really difficult at the time but.
Cliodhna Carroll: Because I really wanted to do health psychology masters and it's very clear like about them and do my health psychology masters and Belfast then i'm going to do my clinical psychology trina and then i'm going to do when you're a psychology and I had a pathway.
Cliodhna Carroll: mapped out and and like looking back now, I think that was the best thing ever that happened for me because I had so many.
Cliodhna Carroll: and rich meaningful experiences I got to kind of like study in Scotland I got to study in England.
Cliodhna Carroll: And, and I actually did you know I did a master's in Ireland at one stage in gerontology which sounds really bizarre.
Cliodhna Carroll: but actually it kind of late, it was a really multi-disciplinary masters with lots of epidemiology, I had you know the opportunity to study lots more about statistics.
Cliodhna Carroll: And that has probably contributed to my understanding them neuropsychology and you know the people that i've met along the way, have shaped shaped me and for you to look back, I don't regret it now it's.
Cliodhna Carroll: You know I think when you're young and kind of team, and you get enough back it feels a lot harder it isn't it then when you're a bit older and you can reflect.
Ingram Wright: I suppose one of the things I follow you both on Twitter and one of the things I think you both do very well is is recognized and encourage others who might be struggling on the same path for various reasons and.
Ingram Wright: it's great to see a Community sort of coming together in that kind of way in supporting people who have an interest, but maybe struggling to find a way forward.
Ben Marram: yeah I mean, I think I think for me that comes from experience of like genuinely kind of GCSE level I wasn't.
Ben Marram: academically the greatest I don't know whether it's just the way I learn I find multiple subjects in that intensity too difficult i've almost done better.
Ben Marram: it's probably ADHD that's what it is this kind of getting better as the years go on and just having to focus on one thing.
Ben Marram: And then, and I think it's a shame that you know clean, as mentioned about the greatest need to get on the train and.
Ben Marram: which I think is it's important because the half do in somewhere whittle down numbers anything get the right people, but I think you miss a lot from that as well yeah and and yes.
Ben Marram: it's um I think it's important to encourage others, particularly when they have not backs, because I think on this journey inevitably i'm not speaking for you, clean a book i've had plenty and and you know it's part of the journey, I think.
yeah.
Ingram Wright: Thank you, both and winding the clock forward a little bit obviously at some point, given your established commitment to trading in your psychology you have to choose a course.
Ingram Wright: And you both chose to study in Glasgow, and the second best your psychology course in in the country.
Cliodhna Carroll: interesting.
Ingram Wright: So I said to you before the.
Ingram Wright: Before the recording so i'm working course director in in Bristol so we run a course in your psychology so I have my own my own biases but obviously Glasgow is an excellent course but were there.
Ingram Wright: Were there things that you sort of what particular considerations for you in choosing a course.
Ingram Wright: And you want it, you want to pick up on that yeah.
Ben Marram: I mean, I think i'm from the northeast of England, so in terms of distance I think costco is that 50 miles closer to where I was there's something about that and being supported by the NHS with my training so that being a factor.
Ben Marram: And I think a lot of kind of colleagues are trained in Glasgow, when I was a trainee psychologists that did my elective in your psychology and colleagues are trained in Glasgow and.
Ben Marram: I think, because of that kind of long standing narrative it just it just made sense to me, but then I also worked with colleagues who've who've done the training and brimstone had really, really positive things to say so.
Ben Marram: If i'm honest, I was delighted with the opportunity for either just the up, yes, the training, because it I think in the NHS it feels like a real luxury yeah and.
Ben Marram: So that was kind of went towards and also, I think the idea of staying away in Glasgow not being to classical and then kind of having that yeah just getting to know the city and having some time away was quite a big draw for me yeah.
Ingram Wright: What about you Tina.
Cliodhna Carroll: I think like similar to Bam I think I knew quite a few people who are trained in Glasgow.
Cliodhna Carroll: And, and you know there's that kind of narrative of reputation isn't that you here, and then you don't necessarily hear kind of.
Cliodhna Carroll: about other courses and I had some connections with with Scotland as well, and had friends there so kind of the idea of kind of you know, being able to.
Cliodhna Carroll: And socialize with friends and which actually didn't really happen because we ended up doing so much socializing.
Cliodhna Carroll: The corpus and and and I think one of the things for me about Glasgow, particularly, particularly at that time kind of pre pandemic was about actually.
Cliodhna Carroll: Being in a room with other people who love brains as much as I love brains and then you know I think kind of one of the first days.
Cliodhna Carroll: it's probably fair to say vendors and we sat beside each other for most of our lectures to a trade with Glasgow course and.
Cliodhna Carroll: Passenger back and forth notes are times, where like this is fascinating so in late, let me tell you this legion and.
Cliodhna Carroll: And for me, it was very much about a course that, provided that opportunity to be able to kind of late needs to chat in the coffee breaks and to be your end kind of peers and.
Cliodhna Carroll: I think for me that's one of the things that i've certainly taken away from from Glasgow is like you know we've got different whatsapp groups like kind of with people that's just like oh i've just seen this.
Cliodhna Carroll: You know this lady or and just seeing this man, and you know they have this kind of a presentation like kind of can we, you know can guide me on literature and.
Cliodhna Carroll: Immediately you kind of get a response from somebody that goes yeah yeah you know here's this article or here's this thing so it's kind of that peer support pure knowledge not not a top down kind of didactic learning obviously that's there as well.
Cliodhna Carroll: Yet it's kind of the interconnectedness between peers as well.
Ingram Wright: Do you think I mean sort of other obvious question about cove ID and you know you're obviously you desire initially to spend some time in Glasgow, I guess, clearly compromised in terms of how things are running a present what kind of impact has that had on your trading experience, then.
Ben Marram: In terms of doing the practice component now.
Ingram Wright: Well, well, both I think i'm always thinking principally about the sort of course experience and the sense of being in the room, with other people, I mean.
Ingram Wright: I assume it does feel very different.
Ben Marram: I think I mean it must, it must feel very different yeah I think.
Ben Marram: You know i've got friends who just finished last score in the process of finishing Glasgow and i've done it all online.
Ben Marram: And I think you know the standard of teaching is the style of teaching it's excellent, but this has been something missing those incidental comments sections and chats avail.
Ben Marram: yeah that's really interesting, are you know, I was really struck when I was on Glasgow about you know.
Ben Marram: in Newcastle it's not a particularly culturally diverse place on the hall, so I think being able to speak to colleagues about their experience of seeing people in their clinics and what they didn't have a managed, I remember a particular lecture where.
Ben Marram: I think it was about it was about us types of different types of injuries and one of them was about gunshot injuries and.
Ben Marram: how's that well i'll never see a gunshot injury, you know it doesn't happen, then, then other colleagues around the country Oh, this is quite common we might see this, and I think.
Ben Marram: All of that extra learning is what makes it so good, and so I think it's a shame it's had such an impact because I think even on zoom when you have those breakout rooms, it still doesn't quite have the same feeling.
Ben Marram: As walk into the coffee machine grabbing a coffee and chatting about the thing on right and that's why cleaner and I know each other so well now because of all those incidentals.
Ingram Wright: I suppose I made a mistake in framing that question is if you're on the cause of course you are on the course you finished your training in terms of the knowledge I mentioned you finished when been.
2018 cleaner to be finished.
Cliodhna Carroll: Looking at me very blankly and yeah I think it was 2018 that we finished her and instead of knowledge component and exams done justin.
Ingram Wright: where you are now it's a cleaner, you were saying you're you're kind of preparing for the for the five oh you got a date for your for your father.
Cliodhna Carroll: Do is, at the end of April so.
Cliodhna Carroll: it's time next one that'd be fingers crossed done.
Cliodhna Carroll: And yeah so Ben and I bought trend, at the same time as a sensible for was finished or knowledge component in 2018 and then both of us went directly onto the.
Cliodhna Carroll: portfolio and and I bet back a little bit further than bed, which is why i'm a little bit in terms of kind of submission i'm submissive i'm sure Benghazi probably submitted saying really kind of if you push.
Ben Marram: yeah it's not gonna happen yeah mines calm fiber in October I think cleaners much braver than I am, but yeah it was we we saw it followed a similar route and just kind of support each other through that whole kind of process through which I think's been really nice to be.
Ingram Wright: What was it a natural step to go from doing that knowledge course that diplomatic to going on to enroll on the practice side of things did that feel like an additional decision or was it something that flowed quite naturally.
Ingram Wright: What would you say then.
Ben Marram: I mean, I think, initially, I was going to take a year off and I found the kind of knowledge component fairly intense I think was working in the NHS as well.
Ben Marram: And, but I think when the opportunity presented itself and then, knowing that like friends and colleagues were doing it as well, it kind of feel like the perfect opportunity.
Ben Marram: I think, with hindsight i'm really glad I did that actually because there's something about having that intensity of kind of knowledge and.
Ben Marram: Being able to apply it in a very practical way, straight after when you're thinking about your portfolio so.
Ben Marram: yeah I think what pushed me was because I think you can top it up to like a master's if you do it Australia Austria afterwards I thought that's a good opportunity.
Ben Marram: But actually i'm with hands i'm kind of glad I did anyway and didn't have that breaks, I think, maybe I would have struggled to build up steam again to.
start again.
Ingram Wright: Clean What about what about for you so.
Cliodhna Carroll: Really similar for me, I remember john Evans kind of speak common to speak to us like kind of em when they.
Cliodhna Carroll: Because because we're the first cohort going through the chemical portfolio in Glasgow, and I remember john Evans coming to speak to us and.
Cliodhna Carroll: Saying one you can get your masters, if you complete both in five years, and that was me so old and, but I think I think like Ben like it's not like you can see any can see the listeners can't see but in the background, all of my folders from Glasgow are on the shelf behind me.
Ingram Wright: And there are lots of folders on the show.
Cliodhna Carroll: We chose has every lecture was like kind of handwritten on and kind of from Glasgow and.
Cliodhna Carroll: I think exactly like Ben says it's kind of been able to kind of draw on that immediately kind of way where you're trying to kind of like get get to grips with the portfolio, but actually the knowledge is literally at your fingertips behind you, because it's fresh and it's.
Cliodhna Carroll: You know it's not like 10 years later kind of go boy I think I had a lecture about this one time, maybe like kind of it's literally like yeah yeah I know which module that was and then I can go and pull out the election results and and having that fresh definitely has helped me.
Ingram Wright: and other people particular sort of challenges that come with a practice aspects, I mean, obviously.
Ingram Wright: I guess many people listening will be familiar with the practice of clinical neuropsychology in terms of service delivery but doing that, alongside you know recording and thinking about your cases and building a portfolio of evidence is, how is that how's that been for you Ben.
Ben Marram: I mean, I think yeah it's tricky it's a lot of work, you know you can't hide from that it's a lot of work.
Ben Marram: And as much as you try and integrate into your practice inevitably is kind of Saturdays and Sundays if you're working full time when you're looking at stuff and evenings and.
Ben Marram: And thinking about about things, but probably not helped by corvid as well because that's obviously just a whole layer of other things, to think about.
Ben Marram: And I think the big stress that came with it was around kind of access to cases and we're not seeing people face to face but.
Ben Marram: In my experience, the costs have been really good and adapting to that and thinking about it because we have to we've got no choice.
Ben Marram: And so I think yeah it's challenging but it's not manageable and, at times, it really feels like it, it helps you practice because it kind of in the NHS suddenly where you don't get time to stop and think it's a natural prompt to stop and think, which is really helpful I find.
Ingram Wright: What about you.
Cliodhna Carroll: know I would say.
Cliodhna Carroll: It yeah like totally echo what bannister said it's hard work, it means you know I think there's times and Ben and I both discuss this kind of like in our kind of peer catch ups like kind of.
Cliodhna Carroll: there's been times, where it's felt like there hasn't been time for anything else that you're actually breathing sleeping dreaming about neuropsychology.
Cliodhna Carroll: And, and you know I think even you need a passion for something doing something some kind of light infantry segment your life in your world and, but it was important to kind of have that break from it as well, sometimes to just be able to step back, have a break and.
Cliodhna Carroll: not think about it for a little one and, for me, I would say that that training, not just the knowledge component, but I think particularly kind of.
Cliodhna Carroll: portfolio component, where you really thinking about your cases is probably made me a better explanation because.
Cliodhna Carroll: Like i've got you know it's kind of it's really difficult isn't it like you're in the room, with somebody and you're kind of thinking yeah you know, I was just thinking about this, the other day and i've just read this journal painting bar or.
Cliodhna Carroll: You know your supervisor and kind of colleagues and it's kind of late oh yeah like kind of you know, I had to make kind of do this thing come from my portfolio last night here, let me just send you kind of a couple of sentences from.
Cliodhna Carroll: Like my case report that i've just recently come from we lit review and so there's a real kind of em sense of kind of having knowledge.
Cliodhna Carroll: You know, almost at your fingertips again like kind of and being able to share that and and fundamentally it's about kind of better care for for patients and their families, and you know if that's what it can bring that's brilliant that's that's the be all and end all in a way.
Ingram Wright: you're, as you said, I hesitate to remind you, but you're quite close to your to your fiber cleaner, and I mean Are there things that you're kind of going through right now that any advice you'd give Ben about about what lies ahead of him.
Ben Marram: Please yes.
Cliodhna Carroll: I think I think my final week before submission I started a document of like top tips for people starting this one is.
Cliodhna Carroll: And you know I know Ben is way ahead of this like kind of in terms of his journey but one top tip is very much about set up your tables because.
Cliodhna Carroll: I think there's so much time when you're writing up your typical portfolio spent in terms of formatting and.
Cliodhna Carroll: figuring out what needs to go into your tables and, for me, I learned probably need to write six case studies, I think I probably learned some kind of case study, for that would have been helpful to have a template that shows me.
Cliodhna Carroll: I need to have the scores like kind of so that it prompts you, rather than having to go back, which sounds like a crazy top tip.
Cliodhna Carroll: it's that kind of being practical thing, and I think one of the other things like kind of i've started to do for myself over the last little while is create crib sheets of just.
Cliodhna Carroll: You know stuff that for me doesn't come kind of easy like kind of stuff like kind of what's the difference between specificity and sensitivity of tests and.
Cliodhna Carroll: And the bed, we hope so many chats heavily about based rates kind of estimate and pre morbid functioning all of those things that are quite technical like kind of that for me and there's a bit of a panic of all, what if I get this wrong and viper.
Cliodhna Carroll: Which is you know, probably my biased view of knowing where my gaps in knowledge.
Cliodhna Carroll: And, and you know, imagine that you know I imagine kind of like the reality of it there's probably going to be a lot more and talking about themes and talking about cases and you know, demonstrating that knowledge and kind of the the technicalities of it but probably not all of it.
Ingram Wright: And then opportunities now are going to sort of practice those things and go through sort of a mock live or or maybe by virtue of some kind.
Ingram Wright: Of Glasgow provide that opportunity we provide a similar opportunity in Bristol and then you know, I think.
Ingram Wright: That i've no doubt you've been i've been a strong position in terms of what you've submitted, you know speaks to the quality of your work and then divide that becomes an opportunity to explore those things in a little bit more a little bit more depth.
Cliodhna Carroll: And I think I actually have my my modify the master you can say patrick's day.
Cliodhna Carroll: was very much like the luck, of the Irish has to be with with me for this and but it, you know, in some ways, it was quite an enjoyable experience and i'm really hopeful that survivors like that, as well that it's being in a room of other people like I said, who love brief kind of been.
Cliodhna Carroll: Really passionate about this stuff and you know, trying to frame it in that way, rather than a kind of you know.
Cliodhna Carroll: This is going to be awful my kind of what if I don't see this, what if I say this, they kind of what I remember, most of it.
Cliodhna Carroll: And you know, of course, those thoughts are there that's normal in the actual isn't it but it's kind of and having a reframe and.
Cliodhna Carroll: You know, for for Ben and I as well, they can were involved with study groups, and I think that will be.
Cliodhna Carroll: You know, for anybody starting out when this journey and kind of you know, try get involved with study group, like it has been.
Cliodhna Carroll: taught or saving grace, I would say, then for both of us, I kind of of having sharing that kind of you know.
Cliodhna Carroll: Fake where our exams like kind of it was like okay here's like one of the modules here's what we need to learn about okay i'm going to do this stuff and different people they kind of went and researched and stuff.
Cliodhna Carroll: And that was you know it just share that old isn't it like kind of ladies to do law and learn and learn from each other, but that kind of sharing of the Lord and been able to.
Cliodhna Carroll: to share experiences to share that kind of already know what like i've had this like kind of really tricky score like kind of what do you make of this like on them for.
Cliodhna Carroll: And you know those the messiness they can be referred to earlier badness know of those stats that.
Cliodhna Carroll: And when you're working as a clinician that's you know you need that time away sometimes to think about those things like kind of war is different in kind of the day to day clinical stuff that comes a bit easier.
Ben Marram: Now, and I think on that point, like what i've really learned about qualification is not this reflection last week with a colleague is.
Ben Marram: And you know you sometimes kind of break yourself, for not not doing words on paper which can happen, a lot.
Ben Marram: and actually I think all of those times, where we sat together thinking and talking and peer support groups like that is prayer that is work towards the qualification.
Ben Marram: So, even though you might say, okay i've spent two hours thinking or reading or.
Ben Marram: or just actually formatting and you think, but I haven't actually got words on paper, I think the other stuff is just as important, because that's all part of the process, I think.
Ben Marram: And it's surprising when you get to the last stages of the portfolio and you kind of fall fifth case studies, the tend to write themselves a lot more quickly and quicker and I think all of that work before all of that time thinking speaking together is is.
Ben Marram: pays dividends later on.
Ingram Wright: So, speaking of tough questions, as we were.
Ingram Wright: forewarned you both are going to ask you some questions now, these are forced choice questions and we're going to start with Ben and then cleaner and then Ben, are you prepared for this.
Ingram Wright: grantee quick.
Ingram Wright: Okay.
Ingram Wright: So Ben first diagnosis or formulation.
Ben Marram: formulation.
Ingram Wright: cleanup Disney plus on netflix.
netflix.
Cliodhna Carroll: Excellent.
Ingram Wright: pain free or fiber fruit.
Ingram Wright: cleanest sweet or sour.
sweet.
Ingram Wright: Then raw shark or mpi.
Ben Marram: Russia.
Ingram Wright: clean and attentive or hyperactive.
Cliodhna Carroll: and attentive.
Ingram Wright: been fixed or flexible flexible.
Ingram Wright: clean up maka.
Cliodhna Carroll: maka.
Ingram Wright: hey did you spot that there is any neuropsychological reference in that in that question.
Ingram Wright: One for the aficionados.
Ingram Wright: Then parietal temporal.
Ben Marram: temporal.
Cliodhna Carroll: i'm surprised.
Ingram Wright: US you actually.
Ingram Wright: One of the roles of these questions is it doesn't have to explain anything.
Ingram Wright: Cleaner retro until zero.
Cliodhna Carroll: And zero.
Ingram Wright: And then last one veggie box or delivery.
Ben Marram: Neither because i've never used that.
Ingram Wright: You can't have you can't say no.
Ben Marram: delivery.
Ingram Wright: If you are pushed it will be delivering.
Ingram Wright: Thank you, both.
Ingram Wright: Maximum points scored i'm not I don't know whether this picture will stay in the podcast.
Cliodhna Carroll: and
Cliodhna Carroll: we're going to ask about specificity and sense to.
Ingram Wright: You I was sitting there when you talk.
Ingram Wright: Earlier I thought i'd throw specificity sensitivity in there, which would you choose.
Ingram Wright: it's a tough one isn't it.
Cliodhna Carroll: Nice to check my crib sheet in.
Ingram Wright: Your face a junior Christie.
Ingram Wright: And i've got a couple of questions that they need some more reflections really in terms of where you're at the moment, I mean any sort of general advice that you give people.
Ingram Wright: And we talked about people at the very early stage of their career who might have personal experiences as you had cleaner that kind of get you interested in neuropsychology and how we can help people and but it's there's some specific advice you would give people you've got an interest.
Cliodhna Carroll: One of the things I would say it's like don't be afraid to contact people you know don't be fake you know don't don't kind of lay it all I can never contact that person.
Cliodhna Carroll: I think kind of actually you know make contact like you know, most of us like kind of that work in your psychology of huge hugely passionate motive, and we take any opportunity, in the words to talk.
Cliodhna Carroll: And to say yeah I mean contact me now on Twitter and social media many organizations to special interest screens.
Ingram Wright: I think that's great advice cleaner and I think some of things that have encouraged me along the way, is when i've.
Ingram Wright: taken that step of emailing someone or getting in touch and you found someone responsive and enthusiastic and helpful it's great you know we don't always get a reply, but I think people are you know rarely upset.
Ingram Wright: By being contacted by someone who shares their their interest yeah What about you, then any advice for people who have an interest in your psychology yeah I think.
Ben Marram: I think it's on a similar threads what you both said there, which is about kind of get yourself out there, like put yourself out there, I think, in the past, you know I think with corvette i've done more things more recently that have made me put my head out there and.
Ben Marram: I think what's really nice about the Community at the moment is you know people can feed off enthusiasm So even if you're not an expert and you don't know everything the communities really supportive.
Ben Marram: So the I think the situations where people tend to kind of shy away from maybe sharing, something that the nervous about for fear that you know.
Ben Marram: Like imposter syndrome or, but I think I found, although I suppose over the years that the more you do that, and do things like this i'll put yourself out there and talk it kind of encourages people and also.
Ben Marram: It really helps to kind of build the confidence and an experience as well, because the number of opportunities that have come from doing that.
Ben Marram: have been huge and actually not being as scary as a as a maybe thought the world, and I think, particularly in covert times there's more opportunities to do that and it's really excellent to see that happening as well.
Ingram Wright: Thank you Ben.
Ingram Wright: And I I like a question, on reflection, I mean we talked a little bit about some of the changes that have happened diversified the routes through which people can become qualified in numerous ecology, what do you think we still need to work on.
Good question.
Cliodhna Carroll: I think I think your previous podcast with them Lawson and will ingram was yeah really fascinating and thinking about kind of.
Cliodhna Carroll: How to you know blossom made a point in there about how neuropsychology who just about neuropsychology activated ahem cognition can impact on emotion emotional states for for all of us like on, and I think there's something of a.
Cliodhna Carroll: brief can down that barrier between neuropsychologist been seen as testing and i'm really where that is a testing making specificity.
Ingram Wright: sensitivity today.
Cliodhna Carroll: But actually the fundamental most of my work is working is working with clinical psychologist with a massive range of models and I think there's something about.
Cliodhna Carroll: there's something about the picture, or the image of your psychology that.
Cliodhna Carroll: You know I think you know I do you think kind of for it off people kind of started off kind of with clinical train on actually being.
Cliodhna Carroll: If people knew that you know I steadman clinic room and you know why might be using cvt I might be using act, I might be using systemic models, I might be thinking kind of Lake and formulating from.
Cliodhna Carroll: A cat perspective or psychodynamic perspective actually I get to use every single kind of and but there's a potential I don't personally use it, but there's a potential to use kind of every single psychotherapeutic model and pretty much in your psychology and.
Cliodhna Carroll: And this is probably my perspective as well, I kind of feel like that doesn't always kind of come across for people kind of early stages of clinical psychology that.
Cliodhna Carroll: You know this, this is, this is the career pathway that kind of allows you to practice lots of therapy skills.
Cliodhna Carroll: And and really simple stuff sometimes makes a massive difference, you know if you can kind of, say, to somebody or like you know, for you know your memory.
Cliodhna Carroll: isn't great in terms of kind of been able to freely record, but actually if somebody gives you a prompt, they can kind of poke into your brain and kind of help you pull that memory and.
Cliodhna Carroll: And you know kind of Satan were a family and saying Okay, I wonder if you try this let's give it a call like can we try it here like let's see what happens when you.
Cliodhna Carroll: say what did you have for dinner yesterday versus did you have like how many chips or did you have like kind of shepherd's pie.
Cliodhna Carroll: let's see what happens and it makes it really, really, really quick wins that are you know lovely.
Cliodhna Carroll: And I you know I think there's something about kind of people realizing that actually this is, you know it's quite a reward and kind of area of work going in clinical psychology sorry i've kind of gone off on a.
Ingram Wright: great example of.
Ingram Wright: A response to that question to what about you, what about you been anything that you'd like to see change, I think.
Ben Marram: You know, I was a total stats for my entire career and there's something about neuropsychology where it's a if you're going into neuropsychology you must love stats on be good at stats and I think.
Ben Marram: I think that there's some truth to that in that statistical knowledge and psychometric knowledge is a big part of it, but I will speak Chinese on Monday about.
Ben Marram: Almost making stats cool because it's not it's not getting excited by a skilled scar it's understanding what that scale score means to someone's life and exactly what clean, as you said about.
Ben Marram: You know, being able to remember where you've put something the deer helps us informed that, as well as early the psychology so it's really important than that.
Ben Marram: You know, this is the art and science and your psychology, we have to understand the science, but there's a real art to it as well yeah.
Ben Marram: And I think if we can you know if we can almost demystify how scary the stats are and make them a bit cooler or bit more interesting.
Ben Marram: Maybe that'll encourage more people, because I think it does put so many people off, I think you could get a room of psychologists and ask them what they least liked about psychology and they will probably be stats.
Ben Marram: yeah, and so I think there's a lot to be said there in the trainees, you know with a couple of case examples of showing how we use the data to inform a very specific treatment.
Ben Marram: it's only came to life know much more excited about it and, like oh yeah This is great now like this is really important, and understanding why.
Ben Marram: Like the psychometric properties are important to understand in helping that person's journey so yeah I think probably that part and and again with study groups and.
Ben Marram: and talking to others, and having good supervisors that's kind of the barrier that i've broken down that's probably got me on this room as well because i've i've suddenly become like interested in stats and think it.
Ingram Wright: sounds it sounds.
Ingram Wright: It sounds like what you needed bed is to make that come alive really so you rather than put the stats front end.
Ingram Wright: You know that's that's some of the human interface, that is, clinical neuropsychology and what we do in that interface, that is meaningful.
Ingram Wright: To was into personally meaningful to us as clinicians and let's use our statistical knowledge to inform that as best we can, rather than rather than the other way around yeah definitely.
Ingram Wright: i've got a I suppose a final sort of closing question fee for you both, which is obviously Ben you've got quite a specialist.
Ingram Wright: role at the moment, and it was probably less of a fair question so maybe start with cleaner, but I wanted to know what you know where.
Ingram Wright: Which aspect of your sort of your psychology so special TV kind of crave to develop next you're working in a particular setting i'm not suggesting you take yourself, out of a job here but.
Ingram Wright: Other things you're thinking at some point in my career i'd like to move into that area, you know what other landscapes, would you like to explore.
Cliodhna Carroll: I think, for me, like you know the last four years of my life four and a half years have been kind of focusing on your psychology and.
Cliodhna Carroll: Then, your psychology course, and you know i'm constantly seeing cpd stuff kind of around therapy, particularly i've got really, really interested in acting neural.
Cliodhna Carroll: Net recently and and for me it's kind of you know I think some of the next lot of cpd that I really want to do is kind of a big development therapy skills and.
Cliodhna Carroll: And yeah which is you know it almost feels like kind of gone full circle and away from kind of clinical psychology train and your psychology training back to kind of like clinical psychology psychotherapy training again.
Cliodhna Carroll: And that's you know that's certainly something that I wouldn't even take off on on kind of after the end of April.
Ingram Wright: Yes, after after a short break.
Cliodhna Carroll: yeah maybe a day or.
Ingram Wright: What about you been.
Ben Marram: Yes, I mean obviously i'm in a very special stare at the moment that's kind of taking a lot of my time and thinking in terms of developing that but I think it'd be really good to see neuropsychology kind of.
Ben Marram: Better embedded in everyday language to kind of you know, we have things like the mayas breaks and and those types of things that help wasn't meant to help us in work environment.
Ben Marram: But I think there's not a lot of attention paid to like you know human cognition and how we learn and develop in in organizations are.
Ben Marram: How staff teams work on busy wards during corvid and the cognitive load of that type of stuff so maybe being more kind of neuropsychological thoughts being used in in kind of other environments and other ways of thinking would be really good.
Ben Marram: Because yeah the the amount of times i'm saying this stuff you know actually if you're distracted you know.
Ben Marram: In just prompting them and cove it's a good sign of a particular with kind of stuff support stuff and recognizing.
Ben Marram: distracted mind might affect your ability to remember, for example, so doing a bit more of that would be really good and then obviously i'm really excited just about thinking of the neuro psychology of of mitochondrial disease specifically.
Ingram Wright: Well, thank you both i've taken up a lot of your precious time.
Ingram Wright: it's been a really helpful conversation what's the price me throughout the podcast we've done so far as how much i've learned and i've been scribbling down notes about things that we need to do on our.
Ingram Wright: courses and things we need to think about in terms of training, how we present neuropsychology to trainees at various stages, all of these things are vitally important.
Ingram Wright: And one of the things that obviously comes through powerfully is how well we can support each other on that.
Ingram Wright: journey, you know so whether it's these kind of learning sets that grow up formally around courses or the informal networks that we can build with people who can inspire and advisors along the way, and it's been really great to hear your perspective on that, so thank you very much.
Cliodhna Carroll: Thank you, thanks for having us.
Ingram Wright: Thank you.