Death from the perspective of Jesus | Feat. Stephen Bartley

Death. Death has or will affect us all. For many of us we have felt the sting of death, even those of us who profess Christ as resurrection and the embodiment of hope! So how does Jesus understand death, Jesus is the one who experienced death, overcame death and then raised us up from the dead. In this pod we think about physical death, spiritual death, how we deal with death and how we should have hope in the midst of death.

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WILDFIRE, the youth branch of Hope to Families, seeking unity and community, helping people come to know Jesus and pointing people to the local body. Steven, so good to have you back. I don't know how the release will work with them, but basically we're just firing out podcasts right now, which is really good. It's almost like it's just a conversation. Yeah, yeah, that's what we want. Which is what we want. But this here podcast that we're doing is a death conquered and yet death stings. Which is pretty heavy. And I feel like there's this tension of having a theological understanding and an experiential understanding and sometimes they can be at odds with each other. So thank goodness you're doing it and you can balance the tension. But is there anything that you would say specifically as relates to that as in the theology of death and the experience of death? Yeah. I think it's true just generally speaking, you could have a theology in your head and say oh that's how it is and that's what's right and you've got it all, all your ducks are lined up but it's another thing to get into the pond, it's another thing to be there and I've had bereavements, I lost my dad two years ago, I've lost people that were very close to me, people that I was friendly with, people that were mentors to me. I've seen death and the more you get older, and I'm not sitting here like something ancient but as you sort of tip the balance from being really young to being middle aged to then being senior. you're going to experience more death. I mean, that's the fact you're not living in the land of the living. What's what young people think we're over life, we're free, we're going on adventures, but you're living in the land of the dying. And that's what you have to factor in. And you can't be morbid. You can't be, you know, all doom and gloom. But it's very different whenever you have ideas in your head and then you walk into a wake or you have ideas in your head. And there you're before the open casket of a love one. very different experience. And sometimes you find the tension is your heart is breaking, your heart is broken and yet your head says, oh, this is what you should be believing. And your heart's saying, I don't feel it. I don't really feel this at the moment, you know. So yeah, it's a real tension. It's real, it's a real painful tension. And we do want to be, we do want to make the term theology and our understanding of scripture something that is hollow because rather these are Yahweh's words and he's speaking into and how it operates and how it works. So it really does minister. And so I think for most people, for most people listening to this, they're not really faced with death just yet, but I feel like death is either something that you have faced, you are facing, or you will face. So it's all very applicable. But just thinking in terms of there's those who are probably not facing death right now. but this is an opportunity for you to get an understanding and for you to be equipped for the time when it comes. And I think too often or not, it's like, well, death, especially young adults, it's like whenever we think death is inapplicable and death is like 50, 60 years away. Rather, we've got to take this time and this space as young adults have a lot of time to learn and to become equipped. So when death doesn't inevitably come, we are aware and equipped with Yahweh's words and what He says about it. So with that, first question, how do we understand the now? That is, what has been accomplished by Jesus and the not yet? What is yet to be accomplished by Jesus? Because whenever I say, Jesus has conquered death and then my granda died about a month, two months ago. It's like, he's just died. So it's like, where is the victory here? So it's about understanding in what way has death been defeated, in what way do we live out that victory now, and is there something else to come because it feels like it? Yeah. The best way to think about it, I suppose, is that the kingdom of God began with Jesus as an underground revolution. So, if you've ever watched like sci-fi films or you've watched those things where, you know, it's the big evil society and then there's this underground movement and they're fighting in a hidden battle and basically they're going to overthrow the whole, you know. to build the whole bad system. That's that's the idea of this, you know, idea. And so when Jesus came, he brought the kingdom. And the kingdom of God is an active revolution against the empire of death. That's that's what happened when Jesus came. And Jesus, when he was on the earth, he ministered and fought against death. So whether that was death in the form of sin, whether that was death in the form of sickness, whether that was death in the literal resurrection, physical resurrection, three resurrections, Jesus performs in his ministry. Jairus's daughter, the widow of Nain's son and then Lazarus. And it was for that miracle of raising Lazarus from the dead he was then crucified because the Jewish authorities couldn't have enough of this and would have actually executed Lazarus with Jesus. So here's Jesus fighting against death for three and a half years. He's obviously showing some form of success and then he dies. And you'd say, well, this is a real field coup. This is a real field putsch. You're not doing very well here, Jesus. But at the cross, what Jesus does is embrace the full experience of death, the full experience of it. And I was even, I was thinking about this actually a couple of days ago. Death as an experience is physical, it's emotional and it's spiritual. physical in that your body's organs start to fall apart, you're just disintegrating. Emotionally, you're being separated and severed off from loved ones. And then spiritually, your soul is going back to God. And God, you know, if someone is a Christian, they're going into God's presence. If they're not a Christian, they're going before God as the judge. You know, that's what we understand. So when Jesus was dying, he entered into the full human experience of death. So physically, he's falling apart. Blood is leaving his body. his organs are beginning to collapse, he's dying physically. Emotionally he sees his mother and his best friend at the foot of the cross and said, son behold your mother, mother behold your son and there's a goodbye, there's a real parting of the ways there and spiritually he says father into your hands I commit my spirit. So even from the outset Jesus is fighting this battle against death, he then falls into death fully and you say well that's the end of the story. But then three days later, he rises again and he conquers death. And I'm not going to explain what we mean by that. But what is so beautiful is that the revolution has begun from the graveyard. And Jesus is now presently pushing, pushing back the powers of death here on the earth as we speak. And the scripture says that Jesus right now, as he sits at God's right hand, is ruling and reigning until every enemy is brought under his feet and the last enemy is death. So to put that in a very succinct little way, we are part of a resurrection revolution. That's the way I would put it. And Jesus is the spearhead of it. He has fought against death whilst he was alive. He battled death at the cross, won the victory. He rose again from the dead. And now death is under his dominion. He has the keys of death and hell as we speak. And at the moment, he is slowly, and like an underground movement, it's invisible sometimes, it's not very detectable, but it's nonetheless growing. And the kingdom of God at this moment in history is more powerful, more prominent than it's ever been before. and death is losing and losing and losing. We can talk about the physical side of that, while people are still dying, there's still graveyards, there's still tragedy, tears and all the rest. But generally speaking, if that's in your forefront of your mind, that we follow a resurrection revolutionary and he is the one who's conquered death and he is conquering death and ultimately, he's gonna subdue death when he returns and it's gonna be under his full and total control in a manifest, not in an underground sense, invisible way that's what's gonna be the future. Yeah so death, death has been defeated that is a now reality and how we think about that, how you unpack that victory is that it's a hope that is not yet realized and it's a promise not yet fulfilled but it's a hope nonetheless and it's a promise nonetheless. It's a hope yeah you're right in the sense it's a hope. because for us in our experience, we're expecting things to get better. One way I would think about it is when we say death, right, we instantly think about, you know, oh it's the grave side, it's... the bad news from the doctor. We think in terms of death as in the experience of death, okay? And sometimes we say, well, my experience isn't lining up with what God says. And that's where we get into some tension. But when the Bible speaks about death, it refers to three things, right? Death is an experience which we all must experience one day. Death then as an entity. So we read sometimes in the Bible of death being like a person, not like, you know, the guy with the black hood and the size and all. But we realize there's a spiritual person called death and he's been described in the Old Testament. And then thirdly, there's like an environment of death. This is what we call the underworld. So Jesus at the cross has to deal with three issues. The experience of death, the entity of death and the environment of death. And what I mean is when he entered into the experience of death for us, he now has given us hope as you say. The death doesn't win. We believe in resurrection. That repurposes our understanding of death. That totally changes everything. The death is not the final authority Jesus is. That totally changes their experience of death. So we could physically die. And Jesus said, he that believes in me, though he die, yet shall he live. So we've got hope in that. When we talk about the entity of death, so you read like Job 18, death is to call the king of terrors. So it's a really unusual idea. And the more you read about the king of terrors, the Old Testament and you know you become apparently aware this is a demonic thing and actually is a demon of death you know sometimes you do prayer with people and there can actually be a demon of death and it will it's a real personality and it will leave a person's body but the king of terrors and death is a figure known as Satan because Hebrews 2 says that Satan had the power of the fear of death. And in the Old Testament, to use this illustration, there's a demon deity known as Moat in the Canaanite religion. And Moat is always described as having a large mouth. So in Canaanite religion, he's the swallower of gods and worlds. Death consumes everything. He's just this huge creature that can never be satisfied. And Isaiah talks about death has enlarged its mouth to receive. So this idea of Satan as an entity having the power over death everything. Well when Jesus goes to the cross he defeats Satan. He shuts the mouth of Moat. You know and although Jesus was swallowed by Moat in that sense death couldn't hold him but Jesus broke free from it and now Jesus has the authority over death. Satan doesn't so that's quite a remarkable power transaction. The other wee final thing is death is often pictured as an environment. So like terms like Sheol or the underworld in the Old Testament, it's the realm of the dead. And in the Old Testament, if you read about the realm of the dead, it's always a hopeless place. Job calls it the place of no return. It's the place of darkness and shadows and shades. It's always dying, it's always in the underworld, it's always beneath us, it's never above us. And it's always depressing. It's compared to the dust, right? There's no hope. And the psalmist says, those who go down to the grave cannot pray. So death, the underworld is always pictured as this hopeless place. When Jesus dies, he descends into the underworld, into the realm of the dead, and he preaches his greatest sermon. So you read about that in 1 Peter 3, you read about it in Ephesians 4. He descends into the underworld and declares his victory over death. And now what happens is those who had died in the Old Testament, who descended into that realm, if you read Luke 16, it's known as Abram's bosom. Those who believed in Messiah couldn't go into heaven because their sins weren't forgiven, but they went into a special compartment in the underworld. So it was like hell, but there's the righteous and there's the unrighteous, and they can see each other like Luke 16 says. When Jesus preaches that sermon, the Bible says he leads captivity captive. So it means all the Old Testament believers left the realm of the underworld. And like Jesus said to the dying faith on the cross, today you'll be with me in paradise. So what has happened is now death has been converted for us. So the old hymn says, death no longer your portals are cheerless, Jesus lives the mighty and strong to save. So for the Christian, death is no longer my enemy in a sense, but it's my servant that leads me into the presence of God. in an ultimate way. So you take those three areas of death, the experience, the entity and the environment, Jesus has conquered each one of those. And in him now is the promise of life and promise of resurrection power. And he now transforms the experience of death to become meaningful and purposeful and actually oriented towards a very positive outcome. There's a victory to be had, you've unpacked that victory. Look, this is what we have victory in. And the fullness of that is still to come. But we can have, there's a real, I'm experiencing this victory, I know this victory. And yet there's still more to come. And there's the legal death, the wages of sin is death. And the wages have been paid for by the death of Jesus. And then also spiritually, we were dead, which is what, as you rightly said, we have to... broadened our perspective of what we mean by death. It's not just physically the heart stopping. It's like spiritually we were dead and now spiritually we're alive. And so that's a real hope that we live by every single day. Totally, because like at the moment, I like to think of Christians in this way and the term will never catch on. But we're resurrectionists. That's what we are as principal. I remember Hazel and I, we actually went to Rome once. And of all the things we saw in Rome, we saw the typical sights and sights. That was great. But one of the places we visited and I thought that was really interesting was the Catacombs. So basically the graveyards of ancient first century Christians. And you saw murals that they would have painted and it was all on the theme not of heaven, which is the Western view of, oh, we're going to die and go to heaven, you know, but their view was of resurrection. The early church had a higher view of resurrection than we do. in that way, as you rightly say, we're living in a world of death, but I'm born again, you're born again, the spirit of resurrection, the same spirit that raised Jesus from the dead is inside of us. We're enjoying that life now. So even as I sit here and you sit here, the resurrection life of Jesus is in us. We're sitting declarations that death has lost, which is an amazing thing. I'll give you other illustrations of where death loses. When you pray for somebody that's sick, sickness is just a little, that's a cube of death, right? So you get a common cold, you got the sniffles or whatever, you've just got a cube of death in you, and you can cope with that, it's just one cube. Let's say it's 10 cubes of death and you're dead. So like 10 cubes would be, you've got stage four cancer. There's far too much death in your body, you can't overcome it, right? Your immune system can't fight it. But when a healing takes place, it's the same resurrection life that Jesus has been released into a physical body. And it reduces the cubes, takes the cubes all the way that life is beating death, even in a human body, that the same, the Bible says that the spirit quickens our mortal bodies. So sometimes when you're in God's presence and you get a healing, you've experienced death losing, right? Now it's not permanent, you know, every healing is temporary, but it's a little foretaste of the world that is to come. and the world that is to come is full of resurrection, life and health and that's exciting so when you think of just like there's death big menacing chunk of death there but you imagine the full eternal glory of life around that it's really surrounded and life is gonna be death. Well but death really stinks. It does. It really stings in like how do I as a follower of Jesus deal with death? Yeah. in the sting when maybe these victories that we've talked about. Yeah, how do I understand those victories? Yeah, absolutely, because... I'd say we could keep going. Alright. I think of my own experience just when we were called up to the bedside of my dad actually, who was up in Belfast and he was healthy, he was fine, he was doing alright and then he took a heart attack and I was brought in at about quarter past three in the morning and there was my dad dead, you know, he was formerly healthy well at church that morning. I mean, he was there, you know, that was real. And for it to hold his still warm hand, and the first thought that comes into my head as well, how's your God good? I mean, how's your God good? Because like he's only certain age, you're young, he's young, he's not going to experience the stuff that you wanted him to experience with you, you've lost a relationship, boy it stings, it really, really hurts. And as you said earlier on, somebody said to me at the bedside, you know, can you pray, please? And I began to pray and it's just like, yeah, goodness and mercy will follow us. And even though I go through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil. And you revert back to who you know God is. So when you experience a new unknown, you have to revert back to what you do know. And what you know is, well, God is good. I believe that. I haven't fully worked it out in this experience, but I still believe that God is good and I believe that his heart towards me hasn't changed. He's not punishing me, he's not wanting to do me harm, but he's still good and I feed off that goodness. But what is very interesting is that when you think of heaven and the hope of heaven, that's what sustains you. So I often, I remember it being at the funeral of my dad and there was a relative of ours came to us and he says, always remember where he is. And he says, it's not the graveyard. He's not there. He's in the presence of Jesus. And when I take wee moments where I'm grieving and I still grieve, I still feel moments of pain over this, I'll revert back and say, what is my dad saying? You know? And I was laughing with somebody about this recently about what will that first conversation be like when I meet him at the pearly gates? Ram turn the hem and... I'm bound to ask a stupid question. You're coming into heaven. My dad says, Oh, by the way, that's good. You know, like, oh, here's me gonna blather out something about, oh, I've lived for 30 years, you know, longer than years. And you know, what does that interaction look like? And him full of excitement and joy to say, Well, look, what I've experienced for the past so many years, coming up to two years now, what I've lived on earth for two years what my dad experienced in heaven for two years I'm excited to hear what has happened and it's gonna be really interesting stuff so that's what sustains you that the sting is real the sting is real but God is a wonderful poultice God is a wonderful way of healing that sting and it's hope it's the power of hope and that's what sustains you through grief yeah I love the way you mentioned hope because whenever I lost Granda recently and I was sitting at the coffin and I was face to face with, okay, do you believe this or do you have faith in this? Do you just believe this to be true? That you have hope in Jesus and that he's conquered death, that you're a resurrectionist? Or do you actually have faith in that as you have the reality of it? That is you live it out. And I looked at Granda lying in the coffin and all I can describe it was, wow. It's real. Yeah. This hope that I have is real. I looked at Grande and I was like, whilst there was still this, this sting and this emotion, this sadness, this grief, the grief was positive. Yeah. And it was healthy, but it was filled. It was filled with hope. And it was, I looked at Grande and I was like. dead and yet alive. Yeah. That's the way I can describe it. Like yes, he's dead, but yet you're alive. And it wasn't goodbye, it was see you later. And I look at the people who don't know Jesus. They look at the same body and think goodbye. And dead is dead. And yet we followers of Jesus say dead and yet alive because he was alive. Yeah. when he was living. He was spiritually alive when he was living, which means when he's dead he's alive. And that's the good news of the gospel. Yeah, I mean that's somebody had said, what is it the newspaper, you've ever seen my epitaph and says such and such a Christian is dead, he says don't believe it, I'm more alive than I've ever been before. You know, and that's true. But I was reading some, actually I was reading some last week and it really stood out to me. In grief you have to ask yourself a question, which body are you going to look to? Which body are you going to focus on? If I look at the go down to the grave side where my dad's buried and I think there's a body there, death is in that body. Death is totally in that body. Death is one. But if you read Acts 4 and verse 2, the early church had this statement they said, in Jesus is the resurrection. I never realised that. They didn't think about resurrection just floats in the air and just randomly lands. but in the body of Jesus is resurrection life and authority. So I've got a choice. I can look at the memory of my dad and death is in his body or resurrection life is in Jesus. But Jesus is so good, he's going to release that resurrection life from his body into my dad's body one day. And that body is going to become alive. And that's quite exciting. The other thing that's worth saying, and it's really helpful to say this, the reason why we die, as you said earlier, is the wages of sin is death. Because we're sinful people, corrupted people, death has a right to us. The reason why Jesus Christ rose from the dead, according to the Bible, is that he was raised from the dead according to the Spirit of Holiness. Because he was not a sinner, death had no rights over him. And like Peter preaches in the book of Acts in the Pentecost, he said death couldn't hold him. It's the picture of death, the environment and imagery. It's like a prison that nobody can break out of. Everyone enters and nobody gets out. Jesus is the only man who's done a jail break out of the dead. Because he was holy, he had holy. And to use that illustration of the prison house, he had the keys of death and hell. And he's able to unlock himself out of it. And all who believe in Jesus will get out of death as well. It may be a temporal experience of death, but it's not a permanent one. Well, OK, last question. How do we allow the brevity of time brought by the reality of death to shape our earthly living here and now? Yeah. I do know what I really think about it. And there's a lot of Christians when you talk to them about, oh, we're all going to die, we're all going to die. And they go into this panic mode, right? just think, Oh, I need to do things. I need to do things. I need to live. And you know what happens when you're panicked? You always make dumb decisions. And I think that's true in church life. I think when people start to think, Oh, we've only got so much time and we have to take every moment. We have to take every opportunity. And if we don't, you know, death's going to win, right? And all we're living out is a place of fear. And when I think of Hebrews two, and it says about Satan had the power of death and everyone who was subject to fear of death through Satan's bondage. So what the fact is that the reality of death in our world means that every single last person lives out of fear So you talk to somebody for example, and they're going for a big holiday. Why do you want a big holiday? Why do you need to get to this holiday? Oh, cuz it's once in a lifetime and they use that term once in a lifetime No, it's the reason I need to go and live it up large is because I'm gonna die Or you know somebody says you need to take the chances you get you know, you may never get them again Oh sorry, what? Oh right, yes you're gonna die. Every single person, secular, religious, whatever are motivated by fear and the fear ultimately is death. You take any fearful person, any anxious person and you can dig it down to one reason, they're afraid of dying. Or whatever they're afraid of, whether it's public speaking, whether it's like exposure, embarrassment, whatever, it's a reminder of death. It's a reminder of death. So the answer to that question, how should you live? What's the opposite of fear? It's love. What's the opposite of fear? Faith. That I don't live out of the fear of death. I'm not sitting at this table here today saying I better do this because one day I'm gonna die. But the reason I'm sitting here doing this is because I love God and because I want to trust God. and I do what he's asked me to do in the assignment he's given me on a practical, really practical level. I can remember going to the funeral of a lady and she was a lady and she only two members of her family and it was her daughter and her grandson. And she prayed this prayer and they told us in the funeral that she prayed this. And I just thought that was a really amazing prayer. She said, Lord, keep me on the earth for as long as my family needs me. But when I'm no longer needed, take me away. And I've spoken to people and they're saying, I'm really worried about dying. I'm really nervous about death. I'm really... and they're Christians, like, I mean, you know. and I often will lead them in a prayer just to say, Lord, be sovereign over the time of my death, the manner of my death. and help me to live the life that you want me to live to that point. And God takes over your life and he leads it. And you're not living out of fear. You know, I'm not sitting here, oh, goodness, I only have 50 years. And I've got to fill these ones with to do with these 50 years. And you go into a blind panic and you say, no, I need to go and do this. I need to I need to do I need I need to. And when you're panicked, you make really dumb decisions. And I have done that. I panicked over stuff and I make really stupid decisions. But whenever you live out of love and you live out of faith, you're making consciously good decisions moment by moment led by God. So, yes, you could take Psalm 90 limit, you know, help me to number my days and I may set my heart to wisdom. Yeah, that's absolutely true. but wisdom I believe is living out of love and faith, not fear. Not the fear of death, not the fear of, well I could miss out, I could miss this, I could, you know. But you're living out of love and faith towards God. And let him guide your steps. And that's what the Psalmist says, he is our guide even unto death. So let him be the guide and just walk with him and work with him. Wow. Yeah, the conclusion is that the good news of the Gospel. is that Jesus has somehow in his power, in his goodness, has made death the means to which we access life. That is, I have died to myself. Yeah. I have been crucified with Christ. It's like, death is, Jesus made it possible for us to use death as a means of victory language. Yeah, I mean like Paul says, all things are yours, even life and death. Which is a really crazy thing to say. He says, yeah, death serves me now. Which is a very, you know, wow, that's really blatant. What's revolutionary language? We're resurrection revolutionaries. have to think in those terms and I know sometimes it's hard but if that's framed in your head death doesn't win. And that's the thing I've often, with experiences of bereavement I've lost people and it's crushed me and it's broken my heart but I've always gone back to this idea in my head, life must conquer death, life must conquer death and I believe that it does. In the ultimate scheme of the universe life will conquer death. resurrectionally resurrectionate revolutionaries. If you're able to say it, say it. If not, don't worry. Just live it out. See you in the next one, guys.