We Need to Talk About the (Cancelled Podcast) Fandom! Ft Katie Mordhorst of 'Online Bull$hit' !

In this episode of Who Tf Knows with Emily Rose's "We Need to Talk About the Fandom" series... Emily is joined by Katie from the 'Online Bull$hit Podcast' to discuss the fandom surrounding the 'Canceled' podcast, which recently ended.

 The discussion revolves around the hosts Tana Mongeau and Brooke Schofield, exploring the reasons for the show's termination. They delve into topics such as toxic fan behavior, public scrutiny, the unhinged Reddit community and the hosts' personal and professional challenges. Emily and Katie question whether the fandom played a role in the podcast's end or if it was primarily due to internal issues among the hosts. At the end, they delve off-track and speculate on the subjects of another fandom...Paris Hilton and Britney Spears! 

CHECK OUT THE ONLINE BULL$HIT POD, THEIR MERCH AND PATREON HERE: 

https://linktr.ee/onlinebullshitpod?fbclid=PAZXh0bgNhZW0CMTEAAac1ZoyNQeLFA9qwBaMW-TR8ZR9X7Ucl5KFL9KTCuXVMYh_hVtV9uyTvwhqW7w_aem_40CtcMxCioTSwFmBh_J1IQ

Transcript

  Hello, hello, hello. This is Who The Fuck Knows with Emily Rose. I'm Emily Rose. Today with another installment of the, we need to talk about the Fandom series. Today I'll be talking about the canceled podcast fandom. For those of you who are not familiar, canceled podcast recently ended with host Brooke Schofield and Tana Mojo.

Tana Mojo is a highly successful influencer, as is Brooke in her own right, and I have a guest today that I couldn't help but bring on because, well, I'll let her introduce herself, Katie, of online bullshit podcast. How are you doing? Good, how are you? Oh, I'm good. Are you depressed about the end of the canceled podcast?

I'm not depressed, I think like, so let's just keep it real. I wanna be. Real with the people that are listening, like Yeah, you and I have been actually talking about Tana and canceled at length mm-hmm. For at least a year, because a year ago, almost down to a week. Really? Yes, it was Because your birthday's coming up.

Yes. Coming up. So a few days before your birthday, the day before the election, the presidential election here in America. Oh my God. I, Katie, remember that? Yes. Katie and her co-host Nathan, who I, my dearly tell Nathan, I said, Hey, I love him. Um, their podcast online bullshit. Did a deep dive of all things Tana Mojo, and they graciously brought me on for the third episode, for the final episode, exploring Tana and.

Essentially canceled. And it just seems fitting that a year later, here we are. Here we are. We didn't know a year ago that they were gonna cancel the canceled podcast. We really didn't. And what's funny is that at the time you had just gone and seen Yes. Canceled live, right? Yeah. In October. So yeah, you're ringing my bell.

Yes. About when that was. And I had seen them. I'd seen them in March. Yeah. Previous to that. So Brooke had been canceled when I saw them. Right. And you saw them before any of that stuff happened. Exactly. Yeah. So we did have very different experiences just because of that. Yes. That alone. And so since then, Katie and I, a little BTST, we've been lamenting about the progression of the podcast, the hostility.

I'll say in the subreddit that is dedicated to canceled, which is, uh, canceled with one LR slash canceled With one L. 

Yeah. 

And how, like, kind of just, just difficult it is to navigate that space as, I mean, I'm 33, like we're women in our thirties and Oh yeah. That space does not seem to be populated by people like us.

It doesn't, and I actually revealed on Katie's Patreon that there was a poll that was done by whom? We'll never know. 

Oh, we know who, 

we'll never know who the poll was done. Uh, asking the ages, uh, or the age ranges of the subreddit or Of the fandom. And it was overwhelmingly, I think it was like 20 to 27.

Right. And that was a year ago. 

Yeah. 

Like, I think that that kind of, I feel like it's almost like hang up the phone right here. Like we don't even have to do this episode. Mm-hmm. Not because I don't respect people that are in their early twenties, but because of, I kind of found it jarring because I thought that canceled was such a good show and I, I still, I still do and we'll get into all of that later, but I really think that canceled had a lot going for it.

And I'm saying that as a 33-year-old, but I don't like, relate to Brooke and, and Tana currently. You know, I don't know that, or even at the beginning, no, for sure. They've always been a little bit older than their age, you know? Definitely. Yeah. And so the people listening, it must be like aspirational for them if they are under 25, and most likely if they are, they're not living the same kind of life.

Right. As Tana and Brooke, especially at the height of their, like they would call it now, messiness. Yes. You know? Yes. Going to parties and doing cocaine. For me, I'm like, I wonder what it would've been like when I was that age doing that shit. Certainly not on the, you know, like not with celebrities and shit like in Hollywood, but like, yeah, yeah.

When I was partying in my early twenties and figuring out who I am, like what would that have been like to have a podcast like canceled because funny. Tangent. 

Mm-hmm. 

There was a, um, there's another subreddit, right? Called our podcasts and Yes, yes. They had a prompt, uh, the other day that was like, what are some podcasts that you've had to break up from?

And when you're talking about the grand scheme of podcasts, there's so many, there's just so many. And an overwhelming majority of people replied with podcasts that were either, uh, stuff stuff, you know, or like, I don't know. Weird. Oh, stuff you should know. I think stuff you should know. Yeah. Stuff like that.

Or true crime and Oh, okay. Yeah. My foray into listening to podcasting was undoubtedly true crime. I listened to so much True crime. It's what introduced me to online bullshit. Oh, plug. Yeah. Us too though. Yeah. You know, I really. And you're, you live in Colorado? Yeah. So, lots of crime. Lots of crime. Um, sometimes I think it is, it is because I have a theory about the elevation in mental health because, um, there've been so many shootings here.

Yeah. And I know that's true across the United States. I'm always like, why do I think there's been so many? But then I just think about like Chris Watts and this man who was down in southern Colorado who killed his girlfriend on Thanksgiving, you know? Yeah. JonBenet and JonBenet, you know, and the, uh, ar uh, Aurora theater shooter.

Yeah, that's what I was thinking. And then like, Columbine, you know, he just, we could keep going. We could keep going just about things. And then did you know that this year a man who was a dentist was put away for, um, poisoning his wife until she died? No. And you hope, hope a dentist isn't gonna do that because they Yeah.

You know, fucking Oh, for sure. Yeah. Literally. Anyway. So I do think that there's something with the elevation, that is my theory. Okay, listen, I'm not a scientist. Yeah. I won't knock it. Um, all of that said, I think that a lot of people maybe my age, got introduced to podcasting in that sense, like serial stuff like that.

So for kids who were coming into young adulthood growing up on canceled, or they had seen Tana Turns 21, which we talked about at length in your series. Right. Um, and then having that figure, having Tana have a podcast that probably was revolutionary mm-hmm. To, to them where for me, I got into canceled because of.

This crossover effect that was happening with other shows and other, you know, influencers or celebrities, quasi celebrities you, you followed and stuff. Exactly. That I was interested in. Um, that being, and I already decided, I'm not gonna do an episode on it, but I'll just, I'll say it here and I'll take whatever weird shit comes my way.

Like, I'm a fan of H three, H three, I'm a fan of Tricia. 

Mm-hmm. 

I came into both of them post frenemies, but both of them are friends with Tana. 

Right. Um, 

and I wasn't into like the vlog squad or Team 10, or like, I didn't get into that until much later. Um, and I think that, I guess for me, I have that perspective.

I did not grow up with Tana. I did not. I don't have that connection with her or even with the people that I just mentioned. Yeah. And when I think about that, I'm like, who did I, well I kind of grow up with, yeah. Kim Kardashian. Kim Kardashian. Kim Kardashian. It's true. It's true. I know what you mean. Uh, keeping up with the Kardashians was on all the time.

And then for me, I'd say Britney Spears. Right. That's well, and, and yeah, like the Paris, the Britney, the Lindsay. Like That's right, obviously. And if you listen to my show or watch or do, you know, keep up with anything I do, you know, that, that's like, that's my, yeah, that's my bag. Um, but then, and I think internet people really started kind of later.

Yes. But Tana takes a lot of her, um, inspiration or guidance from that era. And she said as much so I, I think for me. I said, realizing how much younger the fan base for canceled is in general was jarring for me. But then it also started to kind of make sense of things. And one thing I wanted to ask you, Katie, 'cause when I was listening back, I, I re-listened to our episode today.

Check it out, follow me. You can click on the link and follow online bullshit. But we talked about on your Patreon, our different experiences at the live show. Yeah. And I wanted to get your, because we really didn't get into it so much, what your experience at the live show was as far as like the crowd.

Like did you feel like it was a younger crowd or were you able to really Oh yeah. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. I was like embarrassed to be there. Like, not in the way where I was like, no one can see me. I was just kind of like, oh my God. Get out of my way and stop talking about your stupid. I mean, that was the other thing.

Did I tell the story about how some drunk girl was trying to be like, that's my seat. I was like, yes, you did. You did. It's yeah. It's not, it's actually not. If you wanna pull up your ticket, we can look at the map together. And she like would not listen. 

Yeah. 

And then, uh, the other people around were looked like they had just turned 21, looked like it was the first night of them drinking.

And Tana and Brooke came on late. Like, I've since been to this venue to see other comedians. Yeah. And they go on on time. Yeah. And so I sat there for a long time waiting for them, uh, watching and listening to people talk. Yeah. Cring observing. Yes. Did you remind me, did your crowd have like the question and answer section where the crowd like, kind of chimes in?

Yeah. Do you remember like what the, they annoyed me. Um, I thought because there was, you know, like a QA QR code at the beginning where you could submit a question. I thought they must have a team backstage going through the most interesting questions. No, they didn't do anything. They raised hands and called on people and I did leave during that 'cause I had had enough.

Yeah. Um, 'cause I'll listen to canceled and I want the tea and stuff, but there is something that like grates on my ears too. So this wasn't for me. This especially question and answer. I wonder what do you think about this? 'cause I've thought about this too, for the demographic that they seem to be targeting.

Yeah. They're like just like two regular influencers like. Leading an advice column almost 

Right 

Brook? Or like a day-to-day like they're the what? They're a more effective, in my opinion, which is hard to say because I am removed, but like, almost like a call her daddy, but more interesting. Yeah. I had never felt like they were being genuine on call her daddy.

I feel like these two are genuine. Yes. And, and so that perception of being genuine, I feel like it, it actually hinders them sometimes. Yes. Of what we want. Yes. But it also cultivates a really, I mean, parasocial is the easiest word to use, but it, it really does make people feel, and Tana's whole brand is making people feel.

They're friends. Very 

connected. Like they're, yes, very connected to her. Like they're her friend. And that I think ultimately is what fucked them over. Mm-hmm. Because people don't know them and their fan base thinks that they do. Yeah. Coming into it as someone who didn't grow up with Tana in that way, I came into it looking at her as a business woman.

Mm-hmm. Or looking at her as like a character, an influencer. I didn't look at her as like, I grew up with her and I saw her come up 'cause I like she she'd, she'd come up, she was on the up. 

Mm-hmm. 

Um, one thing I wanna ask you too, also, based on your time at the canceled Live show, what was. Because you came after the cancellation of Brooke, and when Brooke's tweets got exposed again, what was the crowd density like?

Were there a lot of people there? It wa there were, but there were a lot of empty seats too. Mm-hmm. And I can't remember if I looked to see if the show had been sold out at one point, you know? Right. Or, 'cause I think I bought my tickets early. I think there was some kind of a, um, I was wondering if there was, if there was a discount code at the beginning, and so I bought my ticket early, then subsequently Brooks Tweets came out, and so Yeah.

Then people, you know, at that time were posting in the subreddit being like, look at all these empty seats. Like, yeah, I, so it wasn't as full as it was when I went again for Tyler Henry. I saw there, you know, the second Oh yes. Yeah. Yes, I do. I got those tickets for free, but that show good was more dense, more densely populated.

Yes. When,

when you were doing your research for your series that you and Nathan did on Tana mm-hmm. Did you go in the Reddit a lot? Like did you reference Reddit and like Yeah, I think it's like when it became a part of my life, it's like now I look at it all the time. I know. And so I'm sure I looked for stories, you know, of note there.

Yeah. But now it's like, it comes up every day and I'm like, Ooh, it's the tea today. You know? What was your impression, um, from the Reddit? Well, I think I've texted you before to be like, I thought I, like one day I really thought I was saying something profound. Something that made sense, right? Yeah. Like, I think.

The, um, the fact that everyone in the subreddit hates Brooke's man Miles. Yeah, yeah. Miles. Yeah. You know, is a little bit based on his own actions, but then also based on us knowing her, saying that she chooses the wrong man. Right. I was like, don't you think that some of this is us being protective of Brooke?

Yeah. And all my responses were like, fuck that bitch. And like, yes, no, we don't care for her. She's racist. And I was like, no. A, a big part of this is that we're not quite sure why she self-admittedly gets, um, like attached to men really fast. Right. And them being people like Clinton Kane Yes. Who lie about everything.

I think we're like, girl, why you gotta get married so quick? Right. Like, maybe you should find out who this man is on a day-to-day basis, whether or not he dated a much younger woman that was inappropriate. You know? Yes. I think that speaks to. This conversation around? Well, certainly and the age of the subreddit and like how they just kind of shit on everybody.

I, I think so. I think that is that energy. Young. It's young. And then I'm like, well, 'cause he, here's something that I thought about a lot. Okay. And I'm gonna say this. Okay. So, and I guess maybe that's like me showing my age or showing like, but to me, when the tweets of Brooks first came out, I was kind of like, well lots of white people at the time had shit like this.

But then the tweets kept coming and I was like, actually like, no they don't Because she had, 'cause like, to be specific, she had one where she was defending. George, whatever his name is. Who shot Trayvon? Martin Zimmerman. George Zimmerman. Mm-hmm. Then she had one where she was like, oh, my professors in college love my papers when I put like a Democratic left-leaning slant.

No. Yeah, no. She said like, exactly. She said, all of my papers get high As and stuff when I am, when I take a liberal leaning position. Yeah. Which is so bizarre to me that you would, to me. I don't know. It just kind of speaks to something like something else was going on with Brooke because like all of her previous standpoints seemed to me to say like she was just racist, but then she had like the wherewithal to go to college and be like, I'm gonna fucking, she wasn't famous.

She wasn't? No. You know, she was nobody and, and she was like. Going into college and like just, you know, she just so happens to be writing this liberal thing, but I'm not liberal. You know, like, it's like weird. Like, what do you mean? Like, maybe she was like exploring that kind of mindset. I, this is giving her a lot of credit, but I just can't see.

Yeah. What would make her say that? Yeah, because, because, you know, I hate to like do the, like if it was the other way around, but mm-hmm. If it was like a conservative person that was like, so crazy, I'm gonna write something like super liberal, like trans rights. Wow. Isn't that crazy? I got an A, I'm gonna write another one.

It's like, 

yeah. 

Okay. And then you're not famous. You're not doing anything with that. You're not like a researcher. You're not a publisher. Right. You're not journalist. So like, so you're just writing liberal essays? I type like, yeah. Good for you. I always figured what she was writing was something about maybe like equality or, um, people should have more access to the wealth instead of like the top 1%.

I always thought it was something like that. Oh, that's, yeah, yeah, yeah. Economics class and that like really deep down. She didn't believe that, but who knows? It wasn't, it wasn't even probably serious at all. Right. It was probably like, I mean, when she was in college in like 2016, like it was probably like, I don't know.

Who cares? Donald Trump sucks. Yeah, yeah. Like maybe Donald Trump shouldn't be the president. Like, girl, maybe we don't need a wall. Stop, Brooke. I'm like getting too liberal. Yeah. Yeah. So I think, so I say all of that just to say that. I felt that disconnect with the fandom in that way because of, when you think about like, I was like mid twenties when I was like learning about how to be a real ally and how to unlearn racism and how to walk in that like 

truth 

how to, how to care about your place in white privilege and dismantling the system.

Like I was in my mid twenties when I learned that, which is when, to me, I thought it became mainstream in 2016 and some of these people were in like elementary school. Oh yeah. Right. And like when I was in elementary school, nine 11 happened. 

Yeah. 

And I could not. I picked up on big themes. Like I, I was taught that like, just because someone like presents middle, middle Eastern, you don't get to, that doesn't mean that they're a terrorist.

Like I understood that, but I did not understand like, the intricacies of the war. Yeah. Like, you know, so I, I almost, or, or how people should speak on it or like, lived experiences. Okay. Um, anyway, that was a long rant about a good point. What were you gonna say about how in the subreddit they were like, why didn't you just go back and delete those?

Also? Do you know if she came out and said something in 2020 or was she just a nobody? She did come out and say something in 2020. That's not what I was thinking. You must know that she did. Yeah. On, on her personal Facebook, again, she wasn't famous, but people uncovered it on her personal Facebook that seemingly only reached her like MAGA family.

She started posting things that, in my opinion, were pretty progressive for her previous stances. Like Yeah. To me, are they progressive? No. Do I think that she moves the needle? Absolutely. Not. Like, but Right, right. I can understand how to her, it's probably a big goddamn deal and I, my point was that I know a lot of white people that 2020 like changed the game for them on.

Understanding racism and like their own families and like Trump, like really, like fucking took them for a loop or whatever, you know? Mm-hmm. Yeah. And so I have some empathy for her in that regard. I also feel as someone who had been watching the subreddit carefully, even before the tweets, that there was like an effort to get those exposed.

And I mean, like I, I was watching subreddit and I remember thinking like, damn, they really hate Brooke. Oh, so they, they just hated her before those came out and they wanted to cancel her? I think so. So what immediately comes to my mind is that they're jealous because they want to be Tana's friend that she chose to be on the podcast, because that's the most parasocial thing that could be.

I'll say that my interpret or like my view on them was always like, Hey, now that Brooke is this like made co-host, like she's getting a name for herself too. I had never seen her before. Like I had seen Amari or that other girl, Ashley or Paige. Ashley Schwan. Yep. Yeah. And so I was like, oh, Brooke seems very lucky that she got chosen for this.

And that was my whole take. I didn't know anything about her personality. I really got to know Brooke when I was doing that research, you know? But now that you've seen, like, have you seen, 'cause when we talked about it a year ago, you were kind of like, I don't care about Amari. 'cause Amari came out at your show, right?

Um, yeah. And so, and you were like, I don't care about this guy. And I was like, wait, I care. 'cause I'm like invested in like their whole lore and everything. And so I was like, well, I care about Amari, but. To me, I'm like, do you think that he would hold up as a podcast host because I've now watched all of their content?

Or have you watched any of their content? Like separately when he shows up on canceled? Yeah. Or his content? You mean separate? I'm assuming that's a no on this separate, but have you watched him when he comes on canceled? Yeah, that's the thing. I can see where Brooke does hold her own. 'cause she has like stories and she's funny and I feel like Amma, when Amari shows up, it's just like, let me tell this.

You know? They're just talking about stories and Tana's like, oh my god, oh my God, I can't believe that. Oh my God. Yeah, totally. So speaking of the Reddit, not to hard transition too much, I took a break for the, for the listeners. Um. I went on the canceled subreddit, which is just notoriously hostile because even when I, well, when whoever, you know, did a poll a year ago about the age rages, um, the replies were just like, it's very defensive in there.

I don't know if you've encountered that, Katie. I have. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Just defensive. Defensive and attacking. It's like, well, you're stupid. It's like a lot of that. It's a lot of that. It's a lot of One time, I believe it was someone, yeah. Posted, uh, you know, should this be classified as a snark subreddit, which I think is a fair question to ask, because most of the posts at the time were like, shit posts.

Shit posts, and the replies were like. Weirdly defensive of the sub. Like, no, it shouldn't be classified as a snark, Reddit, because we can do whatever we want and we have free speech and blah, blah, blah, blah. And I'm just like, obviously, but I think you guys hate the fucking show, right? Like, I think you people hate canceled.

And so it would seem that Brooke and Tana feel the same way. Uh, and we'll get into the ending of canceled in a minute, but I did venture into the subreddit once again and today Yeah. And asked, uh, a question and I put a poll up and I will spare everybody the bulk of texts that I wrote, because I don't think anyone read it anyway, so I'm not gonna worry about it.

Mm-hmm. But the question is, do you think the fandom ended the podcast and the answers or the possible choices are the. A yes, because fans got too parasocial or attached B. Yes, because they didn't wanna be accountable to their fans. They being Brooke and Tana, obviously. Um, c maybe, but I think it was a mix of things.

D no, it was time to end. Time to end the show or e No, and I think they're using a small portion of the fan base as an excuse. And I phrased my questions this way, mostly because I wanted to know how the subreddit thought of themselves, because to me, I can see

their relationship with Brooke and Tana as being detrimental. However, I don't think, I mean Katie kind of differ on this, but. Personally, I don't think that that's the actual reason that they ended the podcast. So that is what they said, uh, time and time again. Uh, that the, they said like, Brooke was getting so much hate.

Well, is it worth it? Like, stuff like that. Actually they never explicitly said that it was Brooke was getting hate. It was 'cause I re-listened to their like weird four month. Yeah. The podcast is ending. Yeah, the podcast is ending. This is the reason why canceled is ending, blah blah, blah. They put out four episodes in the past four months addressing.

I did it. Yes. No, no, sorry. They put out Oh, for every, every month they address it again. They exactly. Okay. With a different like kind of click baby title, but they did it out of nowhere. Yeah. And left people to kind of. Draw conclusions about why it's ending. And Katie, I want you to talk a little bit about why you think canceled ended, because I know you and I have different opinions.

Well, hanging out in that subreddit and then seeing what they have to say, it looks like they're reacting directly to it sometimes. Right. But I'm not quite sure if that just means that the comments on like Brooks TikTok, for example, look similar to what's being written in the subreddit because, um, it sounds like, I mean, every day there's like a brook hate post, right?

Or there's like, Hey, did you guys watch the recent episode? They hate each other. Yeah. Especially Tana. Tana Hates Brooke. Um, and then Jort Gate went up in there and Jort Gate, which I don't know why it's called that. Um, do you know galore? Because it is one of them wearing jorts and they make fun of them.

But the thing is, it's, it's all about how Tana doesn't wanna get to the venue early. And Brooke is finally like, going off in front of a camera about how selfish and terrible that is. Yeah. And that they're gonna lose money. And then Tana's like, I think she says something pretty terrible. Like, I'd rather do this alone.

Yes. Like, I don't even care that you feel this way. I, I just wanna do this alone. Fuck off. Yeah. Yeah. And that seemed, uh, if you ask me like Friendship podcast ending kind of a fight, you know? Yes. Almost like what, what it comes down to at the end of the day is like Tana Tana has her own understanding of.

Fame and when to arrive to places and how to be professional. And Brooke is being pressured 'cause she doesn't actually know, she hasn't done this this long. Right. But she's being pressured by like whoever is managing them. And then she's mad at Tana and Tana's like, I don't deserve this. And so they just seem to have like fundamental misunderstandings of what their job is.

And so wouldn't it make sense for Tana to just go on and kind of do something like this alone? And Yes, that's what the comments will say. And so then that starts to become what the truth is. I feel like I think you're a hundred percent spot on, like however, right? I do think that in their initial leakage of the, in their initial rollout of the ending of the show, it was.

More focused on like Brooks receiving a lot of hate comments, hate comments. And like when you and I talked about it originally, you were like, and, and we tossed a lot of like theories back and forth and you were like, well, I think maybe like Brooke couldn't handle it anymore. Like it's, it's literally like she, you know, and I, I can see that.

But I also think now in light of, Brooke just came out with a vial files interview, which I hate. Yeah. Hate. 

We hate it that I had to 

listen to that. Right. But I did. But she said like, if it were up to her, it wouldn't offended it. And I had that vibe the whole time. I was like, I don't think this was Brooke's like, choice.

Choice. And it wasn't. It was Tana's. I think that Tana has. Difficulty being held accountable. Mm. Yes. And one thing that, to go back to the tweets episode, I think that Brooke was trying to like be very direct and address it in real time. If, if you remember like how kind of everything unfolded. Like Brooke was coming on TikTok and being like, yes, this is what I said, this is not an excuse, but this is what I said.

And she was like being very direct and addressing every single thing again. And, and why I brought all that shit up earlier is just to say that like, I think had she done, had all this happened in like 2016, she would've been following like the appropriate guidelines. Right? But I don't think that she's speaking to an audience that was there for 2016.

Kind of, I don't think it, not even, I don't think that she's speaking to an audience that. Even needs to be receiving that for the most part. Like, I don't know. Well, according to you, they were trying to bring these tweets up all the time. Like they already hated her. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. So it didn't, so then you would think that her response wouldn't really matter.

Right. I don't think it did. Okay. And maybe shuffling back to the other side, like maybe Tana was like, you don't need to do all of this. You don't need to. Because it did end up making things worse because from a PR standpoint, she kept talking about it, dragging it out. But like accountability wise, in the greater scheme of things of like, do I, obviously I'm a white woman, but coming out of it, do I feel like she learned something from.

The time that she's posted those tweets and made those remarks and all that to now I do. 

Mm-hmm. 

Do I think that matters as far as like a brand is concerned as far as like millions of dollars on the line are concerned? Probably not. And Tana, I think had, like you said, more experience and like dodging controversy.

You know, in your episode we talked about like Tana's Angels, she still hasn't talked about that shit. It's been a year. Right. Um, so I don't know. Well, but when Tana got canceled for something racist, you know? Yeah. She felt the need to address that. And she also felt the need to address Brooke, you know, like she did her own episode alone.

Yeah. Which I thought was an odd choice, you know? Well, I thought that was coordinated. Yeah. I, I thought that was like done. Uh, this is my assumption. I have no to appe to appease people or something. Yeah. No, I, I think that they made the choice for Tana to have, I, I felt at the time, like, Tana people, people who don't know anything about this or probably like, what the fuck is going on after Brooke got canceled, right?

Mm-hmm. Yeah. Ironically, for her tweets, like how they dealt with it was Tana did an episode by herself, and in the intro she was like, essentially, like, I disavow, I don't agree. Obviously this is a tough time for everybody, so I'm just gonna carry it on while Brooke takes some time. Mm-hmm. To me, that red, like, I mean, obvi, they're in business together.

Brooke was a part of that decision to me. I would be, if I, if I got proof that like Tana just like, made that call herself or something, I would be shocked. I, I don't disagree. But then when they're making, um, decisions like that, do you think that Brooke kind of does what Tana thinks more, does Tana hold like more power in the relationship?

Is there a power imbalance where Brooke goes, yeah, I'll do what you wanna do? Absolutely. Right. I would think that, yeah. So then in my mind, when Tana and Brooke are on the podcast talking about, and, and Tana very much leads the discussion and I don't know, to me, and I just, I just re-listened to their.

Final, final episode, but she's like, I, I just hate it for you when you open up your dms and you have all this hate because like mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. To me, it's just, I wonder just like, is Brooke

the sheet? Is she kind of like easily manipulated or something? Because to me, Tana's very, like, manipulative. That's what I was just gonna say. When you're saying, hey, like she's saying on the podcast, when you open your dms, I feel so bad for you. Is this t This is Tana. I either creating a narrative or, like you're saying manipulating Brooke.

Yeah. To be like this, this has only brought you, um, strife, you know? Yes. Yeah. I kind of feel like that could be it too, because of how Brooke responds and she's like, when Brooke responds, she says a lot of things like. She says things like, and speaking to Tana, and you've told me, like, and, and, and you've said, you've assured me and we've talked about this and, and, and just stuff.

To me that sounds like, uh, either they're, they're on different pages. They're either on different pages or oddly enough, they're either completely coordinated or Yeah, they're on completely fucking different pages. But I, I have to assume that Brook wouldn't be successful at all. Right. Or have any, 'cause they also kind of monetized their friendship, right?

Mm-hmm. 

They put this idea out in the world that they're like friends, and that's like a big thing on the subreddit that, that keeps coming up over and over and has been coming up for a while now, like. Brooke hates Tana. Tana hates Brooke. Tana loves Paige, but Brooke hates Paige. Paige and and Brooke are hate each other.

And then they, and then there's other, the other Brooke. And then there's all of these other like friendships that the fandom dissects. Yeah. And then Brooke and Tana get on the podcast and they say, well, you know, you guys are so weird. Like, you don't really know us. But they don't say that. And I think that that's something that needs to really be hammered home in the situation is Tana doesn't like, and this is a thing that like influencers do that I hate, like Tana doesn't like really address her fans.

Mm-hmm. And like, tell 'em to, to stop, to shut the fuck up. Yeah. Right. Yeah. And like, but that's. If I think, if I think of some, and it works, and if I think about like Taylor Swift, Hassan Piker, very different people, but two people that have really dedicated fan bases and they do not address their fan base publicly.

Right. Right. All, even though they are known to have really unhinged Beyonce probably too. Right? 

Yeah. 

Um,

Kai Sanat, to my knowledge, doesn't address his like, well, they don't wanna piss their fans off. Right. Well, exactly. And so you, you allow for your fan base to get out of control Yeah. By letting them eat alive. The people that are in your life. And I think that's really fucked up. I don't know. I don't like that.

I wouldn't like that. I wouldn't like that. And, and obviously I'm not paid millions of dollars to do that. Right. I'm not like, but I think about other artists and shit that are like, like if I,

if my fans of my podcast were like, yeah, fucking online bullshit. Yeah. Those frauds. Yeah. Those Colorado frauds. They want serial killers. Emily doesn't even like them. Yeah. They have mental health problems and Emily hates them. Like I would be like, shut the fuck up. Like, you'd be like, why are you saying that?

You'd probably address it. Yeah. But I haven't built my right platform. My, my content creation is not centered around the parasocial attachment that people have to me. Mm-hmm. People may like, that may happen, like people may feel like they know me through the podcast or whatever, like that happens with anybody.

But like Tana's brand is, you know me. 

Mm-hmm. 

And that's how she always gets off on shit. Mm-hmm. And so like I understand that Brooke stands for everything that I fucking hate, and I understand that she,

me and Brooke would never fucking hang out, be friends. Yeah. Like, I mean like what does she stand for that you hate? Well, kind of nothing. Oh, okay. And I don't like that, like I like people that have like an opinion and a perspective. And that's what I've always thought of her too, though. She seems kind of just like easygoing or.

Conflict averse, you know? Yeah. I hate that though. Yeah, I can, I understand. Because it's like, well, what are you doing here? You know? Yeah. Get the fuck out. Get the fuck out. And so in some ways I can see why that would be annoying to Tana, but I don't think that Tana is like, you don't think that's it?

Maybe? What do you think? I think because, okay, they said this whole thing of like, like where Tana's, like I'm in my peaceful era and can you imagine all the times we would come sit here and talk about how we were so messy last night and we did coke and blah, blah, blah. They finally admit to doing Coke.

Yeah. Um, then did you see Lila getting canceled? Oh. And can't avoid it. Yeah. That was everywhere. Algorithm won't let me. Yeah. So I was kind of like, I've, I've already seen them shit on this Lila person before in the subreddit, and I couldn't be bothered to figure out who she was, but then someone posted, Hey, did you guys know that there's a link on Spotify to an episode that you can't find anymore on YouTube?

And I was like, of canceled. That sounds, yeah. And I was like, that sounds interesting. And I pushed play and it's not, wait, they took the Lila episode down? I think so. Wait, that's such a good episode. I wanna just say for people that, yeah, if you don't know who Lila Gibney is. Lila Gibney is a former close friend, certainly of Brooks, um, of both of Brooke and Tana.

And in the early days of the Cancel podcast, Lila was kind of like a character in a lot of their shenanigans. So like a lot of like. Going out, doing coke, getting drunk, pissing in, in front of like, it don't, like that's what they were doing. It was like, that was like, that was like Lila's like place. And then Lila was in a lot of the blogs that Tana and Brooke did together.

That's like for the, the newbies. Yeah. Yeah. So anyway, sorry. They've, I start the podcast and they've both lost their voices. Mm-hmm. I don't know if you know this episode or if it was never put on YouTube. I'm pretty sure I do. People have voices. Yeah. And I was like, oh, I wasn't a watcher when it was. In its infancy.

And they were just talking about their party life. Yeah. And I, and that's kind of all they were talking about. And it was actually kind of annoying. Oh. And then Lila comes on and they're like, oh my God, Lila, you're so gross. You never wash your hands. And she's like, ha, I know. Like that was the whole episode.

You know what I mean? Yeah. And so I was like, is there some place in their brain that it makes sense that they're just not doing stuff like this anymore? And that's why they're ending the podcast. So if you ask me as someone who came into it like a year ago, or a little longer than that, it was never really like that.

Like they've not been that for a long time, you know? Right. Tana went on her like sobriety journey, like a couple of which time of times. Yeah. Yeah. And now it's the second time. You know what I mean? Yeah. But like the podcast hasn't been about them partying in a while. Yeah. You know? But that's a dumb excuse.

No, I agree. And I think that's frustrating too because there's just been like a lot of narratives pushed out about Yeah. It's like, why canceled know. They know that we don't believe them. So they're like throwing spa. They're just throwing Yeah. Spaghetti honey as hell. Just, yeah, the house down. Okay. Yeah.

They really, it's been Brooks Mental Health. Yep. Uh, they don't wanna be talking about influencers anymore. That too, they don't wanna be talking about real people anymore. They are more advanced in this. They are more, um, and you think that these kind of all go together, but they don't. Right. Because they present them as very different concepts like.

We don't wanna, we don't wanna be in influencer drama is something they'll say and then they'll be like, we don't wanna talk about like, people's lives. And it's like, you don't wanna talk about people's lives. Yeah. So you don't wanna talk about yourselves, right? You don't wanna, so what the fuck do you wanna talk about?

Well, so do you, do you think that that's the reason they're ending or what, did you ever come to a conclusion or are you just kind of going down as a true crime, you know, red string person saying, this isn't it, this isn't it, this isn't it. And narrowing it down. I kind of, and I go back and forth, but one thing I think is for sure that I have stood by and seems to be confirmed since the beginning.

I do not believe that it has anything to do. I don't think that Brooke made the decision. Mm-hmm. At all. Mm-hmm. I also don't believe that it has to do with

a pivot from whatever, whatever weirdness there is with like, not talking about other influencers that Tana brings up all the time. That's not it, it's not it from her. 'cause she still wants to be messy on TikTok and still wants to talk shit on TikTok. It's not about that. It's not about like some come to Jesus moment.

She's had about, she doesn't wanna talk about people anymore. I don't believe that. 

No. 

Um, honestly, what I'm unclear on was, is it the, the network's decision to end canceled. Because of Brooke. Oh. And Tana is retroactively. YY like I feel like if Tana's a good friend and you can believe that she is, and I, I do like objectively she's a good friend if she houses at least two of her longtime friends from high school, like Yeah.

You know, like say what you will power dynamics, you know? Right, right. I think that she maybe has such, I don't think that she necessarily wanted to canceled to end either. When I hear her talk about it, it sounds to me like she's justifying Yeah. Too. It wasn't her decision either, and that she's just like making justifications to make it make sense and then like owning them as her own.

Yeah. Whereas with Brooke, to me, it's very clear that it wasn't her decision. Okay. With, with, with Tana, it feels like she's like kind of like Ratt conning or something. Like, she's kind of like, Hey, you know what I was getting like, it was really hard for me to every day and I have to talk about this nonsense.

Like, I don't wanna talk. Yeah. I don't wanna talk about It's so hard. Yeah. Yeah. And I also don't think that Tana was a very reliable business person. I, if I'm thinking of it from like, if I managed the two of them. Yeah. If I was like in charge of the two of them, 

yeah. 

I would be like, Hey bitches, you need to clean up your image to Brooke.

Whatever the fuck it takes. What the fuck is this? How did you, this has come out on Reddit three times and now it's blowing up. That's insane. Mm-hmm. And you get that the fuck together 'cause it's gonna ruin everything. And then you need to show up on to work on time, Tana. Yeah. Yeah. You need to get your shit together.

You need to, we have deadlines. You keep missing them. So the bitch who's like optically terrible is like keeping the one who's like I would be if I was in charge of them, I would be so fucking angry. 

Mm-hmm. 

And so to me, I think it was like, I feel like a very serious conversation had to be had with the two of them from a network.

Do you remember in the last episode when they're talking about how Tana realizes it's probably not a good idea to be doing Coke with like the theater. I don't know if it was a theater owners when they're on tour. Oh, that pissed me off so bad because she was like, in the same episode she's saying, I don't, and you know what?

I shouldn't be outing regular people. 'cause her whole thing is like, it's one thing to like come on her own podcast and talk shit about influencers that are public figures. But what they really, actually it was Brooke, but what they really feel bad about is outing regular people like every day. And then in the episode she goes on to say, Tana.

Yeah. 

That she was doing blow with the owners of a theater of a Milwaukee show or something. Yeah. To the point where it like fucked up the schedule. Like before she went on stage or something. Yes. Yeah. Where it like, it like, uh, yeah, it fucked up the schedule. 'cause she was like doing blow with them and I'm like, do you not think.

That fucks with those people because I can look that up right now, 

right? Like if, 

like, I don't personally care, but I can look it up right now and find out who those people are. Totally. Yeah. And that it could, isn't a good look and be like, did you know? You know, and we, if I wanted to Yeah. Wanted I could, but you're kind of changing my mind where maybe there was an, um, I was about to call it an intervention, but like a meeting with someone at the network being like, um, there's a bunch of things that are making you guys like a liability and then them still kind of not really getting it.

So then like still joking about it on the podcast. Something like that. I think

ultimately, and we're, we're fans or we participate in the fandom. I'm a fan. I can't say that for you, but I'm a fan. Yeah. Um,

I just, what I don't appreciate is 

the hustling 

of it all. Like the, the, the, like the, not the like, not the hustle, not like the grind, not like the getting money. Like obviously I appreciate that, but I don't appreciate trying to like pull one over on people and the mixed messaging and the, like, the spaghetti effect, like throwing whatever against the wall and just hoping it sticks and then pretending like you don't know like what you're doing, like 

mm-hmm.

I really don't appreciate that from them. I guess if you think about it though, it gets that subreddit really buzzing. I know that subreddit Yeah. Pops the fuck off. They get so. Emotional and they like, I don't like when, I don't like speculation about whether or not people are friends. Like I know. It's silly.

It's so dumb because

people's friendship is a spectrum. Like you're never gonna understand really what someone's friendship entails. Even if you think to, to think that like Tana is like a millionaire, and that she gives you the same amount of, like, I, I don't know. To me, again, call me crazy. I think that Tana has been very curated from the start.

Like, I don't know that I would believe much of anything about Tana's life. I know necessarily. I know what you're saying. Yeah. I mean, I, I believe that she grew up. In a bad household, but she's never explained like to what extent it's bad or like she's like alluded to things that maybe are bad to some. I know, but it's not, it's never really, it's like roaches in the house is, is can mean a lot of things.

It's not like, right. And then for her parents to sue her opens it up for discovery. Like Yeah. I don't think, and I don't think she said her parents were like hitting her, right? No, no. She's never accused them of like abuse or anything like that. But then to me, I'm like, well, what, and I think this is like the whole thing, right?

Like what kind of parents would sue their own child? Mm-hmm. So like you have to assume that there's a dysfunction. Yeah, there's dysfunction. And that's clear. Yeah. But like. I'm not cast, I'm not casting doubt on abuse. I'm just like, there were a lot of things like throughout her doing like story times that didn't always like fit together though too.

Right. So it makes sense that her image would be curated, you know? Yes. Yeah, definitely. Wow. So I mean, I guess at the end of the day, obviously the fandom contributes to it. Did you get an answer with your poll, by the way? Did we talk about what they chose? I don't know. So the answers at this time? Yeah. To do you think the fandom ended the podcast?

That's the essential question. Right?

I'll go, uh, inde descending order of. Or no, I'll vote Popular in ascending. Oh, okay. I'll go from least popular to most popular. That's fine. Right. Okay. Yeah. Okay. Do you think the fandom ended the podcast? No. It was time to end least popular with four votes least popular. Okay. Makes sense. Out of 208 votes at this time, uh, which is not great engagement on this post, by the way.

I was pissed off about that earlier, but I, I will not, you know, don't see, I saw 180 responses earlier and I thought, good job, Emily. No, I think this is like, for, for such a big subreddit and how much I don't know, whatever, who cares? Okay. The next most popular answer was yes, because they didn't wanna be accountable to their fans.

So do you think the fandom ended the podcast? Yes. Because they did not want to be accountable to their fans with 17 votes. Next. And, and then this is crazy 'cause the margin. Expands greatly. Yeah. So you go from 17 to 61 votes. 

Okay. 

Do you think the fandom ended the podcast? Yes. Because fans got too parasocial or attached.

Mm. 

Yet maybe, but I think it was a mix of things is with 60 or 62, excuse me. Oh, so close. Close and then 66. No, and I think they're using a small portion of the fan base as an excuse. So the largest percentage, or like the majority feel like Tana and Brooke are using a minority of the fan base. Isn't that interesting?

Yeah. They're like not self-aware. Not at all. Not at all. But that's exactly what I was thinking. Like you're annoyed by the engagement with this post. And I was like, you would've had to make it so much messier for people would've to engage. Would've, right. Don't you think? Yeah. Yeah. Totally. I would've, I thought about that.

You should've been one of the choices, because Brooke is a fucking bitch. Yeah. Something like that. Well, I had to think like, what am I trying to actually get out of this poll? I know. Yeah. And, and I was telling my friends earlier, like, I'm not actually so concerned about like, the responses, like, uh, like the votes as I am, like what?

People will respond. 

Yeah. 

And people didn't really respond. They just voted. And I should have clocked that earlier that they would do that because like the, the post itself only has like five up votes in the subreddit. Yeah. But then 200, all these responses and it's just like, but isn't that interesting?

So. Most of the people say it's that the fandom is not to blame. Right. When Tana and Brooke themselves had have made it kind of sound at least a little like they are a little to blame. Yeah. Yeah. Fascinating stuff. Fascinating. Well, Katie,

well Katie, we've had so much to think about and so much to dissect. So much, so much. Katie, if you just like had to sum up, what do you think now that we've spoken so much, talk so much, do you think that the fandom is the reason that the canceled podcast ended? Yes or no? I always come back to, yes. Yeah.

What do you come to?

Because it's, it's a tossup with this one. What did you wind up with on, um, the Valley? Well, I didn't do a poll for the Valley. I The valley hasn't ended. The valley seemingly is just gonna go on and god damn on. Even though there's no show. But it, it's affecting the show right. The way Oh, absolutely. It's affecting the show.

Yeah. Um, so I feel like, 'cause I can see that even as a non watcher of the Valley. Oh yeah. Terrible. I mean, I think it's always been true that the public affects the perception. I'm really deep into Brittany right now. 

Hell yeah. 

And Kevin Federline really wants to say that free Britney only happened, you know, like she became free because of the public pressure to free her.

Yeah. And I think we all wanna think, how could that be like. Sure, sure. We put pressure on people and blah, blah, blah. But do we ever really succeed? And I feel like what we're seeing is, uh, we do at least, um, influence them. You know, we influence these people. Yeah. Yeah. And that's interesting. Yeah. That's, subreddit is toxic, but go on.

That's, that's kind of where I land. I think that two things can be true. The subreddit is toxic. And I do think that canceled fans have an unhealthy relationship with Brooke and Tana, but I do not think that that is what ended the podcast. And I think that Brooke and Tana benefit from the fandom thinking.

Hmm 

that they had something to do with it. I think that they benefit ultimately from the fandom thinking that they had influence on them because Yeah, I think that's an interesting idea too. Yeah. Like I don't think that they did, I think that they maybe personally impacted them, but like for the business and for the, like I know production of canceled, I think that that was like very much on the both of them from Brook's terrible fucking tweets and handling of it to Tana's.

Terrible work ethic. Yeah, that's what I think, so. Okay. Okay. Well Katie yeah. Thank you so much for coming on. Thanks for having me. Thanks for having me. Emily, where can people find you? Oh, um, online Bullshit Pod on Instagram. 

Um, 

online Bullshit is the podcast on all your podcast platforms, but spell it, you know, with a dollar sign and an exclamation point.

It is, yeah. Such a good podcast. It's one of my favorites. Thank you so much. Which as I, we try to be funny and informative and you are. Thank you. You succeed tenfold. Oh, what? That's where you can find us. But you promised me a story of what? Of Paris Hilton and Britney Spears, if you wanna tell me, and it'll just be a little tidbit to make people go listen to my podcast.

Okay. I, okay. Unless you wanna cut this, that's fine. No, I can tell it really quick. Okay. So, Katie, wait, are you doing an episode on Brittany in Paris? It's, it's, um, our episode is about Kevin Fein's book to try to get to the bottom of like, Brittany has acted like her family really took advantage of her and abused her.

And like, that's not Kevin's stance. And so my question now is, you know, Britney had that weird wedding to Sam Asgari and she had a couple of celebrity friends show up. And my question is always, Hey girl, now that you're free, why aren't you hanging out with any of them? And Paris Hilton will take any chance she can to sing Britney's praises.

I know they could be hanging out and not posting pictures. Don't you think Paris is gonna post pictures? This is Paris's, like favorite thing to talk about. Why aren't they hanging out? So that's what, that's my question. So I don't think they're hanging out because I think that.

How serious should I be? Like, what do I actually literally think? Like I You were, you were like, why did I think that when Paris showed up to her wedding, it looked like a funeral? Something that, oh, because it looked like a fu because I, okay, so first of all, I think that Paris and Brittany like had some sort of like fling.

I think they had like a really Oh yeah, yeah. Okay. And maybe it wasn't serious. Like maybe it wasn't like maybe they weren't in love. Right. But I think that Paris, Paris looks like she could lean on the lesbian side. Oh no. Paris leans on the lesbian side historically, and we know this from her documentary, or we know this from her leaked, uh, because in like 2006 or something, her, she had a storage unit that got robbed.

And then those people posted lots of everything. Yeah. And I have that. Oh, okay. Like, so she, she's bi. Right. Okay. Or she was, I mean, like, I don't know if being bi ever like goes away, but, right. I mean, I've never thought that she has a great relationship with this man she's married to. Yeah. No, Carter Ream is a bummer.

Mm-hmm. Um, but I think that she comes from a very homophobic family. I think that Kathy Hilton and, you know, I think that they're not very accepting of gay relationships in general. Mm-hmm. Um, particularly when it comes to women. I think that maybe they're like kind and, uh, accepting towards gay men, but I don't think that they love lesbians.

Mm-hmm. 

All that much. Um, I think that Paris,

I mean, I don't know. I think she was in love with Britney. I think that. She has always wanted to be a pop singer. Mm-hmm. And Paris has always want like, idolize that like life. Um, I think that Paris attracts a lot of

people that are like addicted to things. Um, Paris does or did a lot of drugs. 

Yeah. 

And I think that

Why would Paris still speak positively of Britney now? Well, it only helps Paris like Yeah. To continue to speak. Uh, I don't even think that Paris like, thinks negatively of Britney. I just don't think that she's gonna come out and be like, yeah, well, Brittany's like methed out, you know, in a loft in Malibu and no one speaks to her because.

She's psychotic because that implicates Paris one and because like hard to say. And then I think that, I think if you look at the pap photos of Paris going to Britney's wedding,

I think that Paris looks like she's, have you seen, did you, did you look them up? No. Haiti. Why? I told you to look them up. I told you to look them up. Dude. Look up. Okay, I'm gonna look them up right now. Hold on. Job.

I think I was like, these are clearly images that only Emily has seen. I was like, Hey

bro, this is gonna, no, I can't look these up immediately. It's be like, yeah, it's hard, right? You have to, it's gonna be a thing where like it was happening the day of, the day of the wedding. There were like these paparazzi photos and no one was like, this is Emily's interpretation. This is not like I'm, I'm being very BJ about this.

Okay. Like, it's not like something that's like was reported on or like everybody else thought that, this is like how I feel. It looked like when you have pictures of Paris through the, what, a tinted window of the SUV. It just looked to me like Paris was upset and I feel like everyone going into Brittany's wedding was upset.

I think Jason Alexander was upset. I feel like everybody felt like, I think there was something very off about that wedding. Mm-hmm. And rightfully so. I'm all about free Britney or whatever, like, totally. And I, I felt that way at the time. I was very like, into free Britney. But I think that the, we're gonna have to cut this, like, we're gonna have to make this a separate, like 

mm-hmm.

I'll put it on my Patreon, I have one. 

Mm-hmm. 

Um, because I don't wanna like upset people, but like,

I think that the conservatorship that she was under was unethical because Jamie ran it. 

Mm-hmm. 

And because of how much he profited from it, I don't think that you should profit from a conservatorship. 

Mm-hmm. I 

think that you should just not, I don't think you should profit from ever.

However, I think that

Britney had.

I don't know. 

I think she was doing meth. I think Brittany has a meth addiction, and I think that was kind of fucking up her game a little bit. TBH back in the day, back in 2007. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yes. And now. And now. But certainly 2007. Yes. Why do you think everyone looks so upset going to Brittany's wedding or leaving Brittany's wedding?

Because I think that they could see that she wasn't well. Yes. Okay. Yeah. And I think that,

I don't think anybody really wanted to incur Yeah, encourage that. And like, I think that it, I think it was like part of the machine 

mm-hmm. 

Of like. Celebrities like getting married to other people and like it being a whole event and like at some point it's like, this is kind of sad, right? Like, 'cause there's just been too many to me,

too many like blind items and shit. About Brittany? Yeah. Or about like when, or, or with Kevin, like I haven't read his book, but I've read excerpts of things that he said and then cross-referenced them with like other shit that has been said in the past, like

about how she treated the kids. Yeah. And I don't know, kind of all checks out to me also cross-referencing her own book and how she was raised. Like I know, I can see how like to her, those things are not. Weird, but how to like teenage boys. Those things are weird and inappropriate. And so what, which things are you referring to?

Um, like insisting that her, like 12-year-old take a bath with her. Or like, well beating them and like hitting them and stuff like that. Like that's very like the south or something. Yeah. It's very like Louisiana so happens alcoholic dad. Yeah. Angry and wants to be like, do we want to believe that she did that?

No, but can I absolutely believe it? Believe that she did it? Yeah. 

Yeah. 

Like, and should Kevin be like, she did this crazy thing that was so unprecedented? No, because I'm like, sure. He also got a bill to him a couple times, but, Hmm.

I don't know. I guess I'm like. If we were supposed to think that she was like doing well in the conservatorship. 'cause like that's what people think because she looked good and now she's not because she doesn't look good then. Okay. Also, that wedding, why does it look like that wedding was planned last minute?

Um, why does Paris Hilton have a story about how she was supposed to go be at some event with a former president of the United States that she had to turn down so she could go to Brittany's wedding because it was planned last minute, you know? Yeah. There's something weird going on. Yeah. I don't think that Paris Hilton, I think that their family has the

influence to, if they wanted to, if, if one of her best friends was having a wedding and she couldn't go and it was important for her to be there to the point where she would post about it. 'cause like. Culturally, no one needed Paris to be at Britney Spears' wedding. You know? Yeah, yeah. Like they're not intertwined the way that say like Kim and Paris are.

Mm-hmm. Like Kim Kardashian being at Paris's wedding was important because of the optics. Or like Nicole Richie, right. Like simple life, like they're like born of each other. So that was like beneficial to everyone's optics and everything. Like you kind of gotta be deep in the history of Paris. Mm-hmm. To expect her to, there's no snark.

There's no canceled. Right. Like, thing like no's gonna be like, it's not gonna be like, uh oh. Like fans don't do that for Paris Hilton. Right, right. Like, they're not gonna be like speculating about Paris and fucking Britney Spears, like. Paris has rebranded herself so effectively and so separately from the time period that she was known for being friends with Britney in that it's like, girl, why were you there?

Why was Drew Barrymore there? No, because it's all like some weird, like I'm telling you, it's some like weird

shit going on, dude. I don't know. Do you know what the shit is or no? Like, I know you don't know, but like, do you have speculation? Did you ever hear us talk about how I thought um, Brittany was a mind control slave? No. Oh, okay. I've always been obsessed with the conservatorship because there were a lot of rumors in the early.

2000 and tens about pop stars and how they become, um, how they get it. Like the Illuminati gets 'em, right? Yeah. And a part of that is, uh, traumatizing them to the point where they have multiple personalities. And it really started to seem like Britney could have had multiple personalities. She does. I know.

Yeah, I know. And so I was like, is there something more nefarious going on here? Or is this just mental illness? And I think you can attribute it to so many things, like the sexualization of her at such a young age. Did she maybe get molested? You know, like you could just see all of the above happening to her, you know?

Well, I honestly, again, all you have to do is reference her book, her own memoir. Yeah. Which is assumedly like, you know. Whitewashed and like just like, yeah. Yeah. The prettiest version of her and then the most charitable version of her, her mother was letting her like drive drunk around at like, you know, 13 or whatever, you know what I'm saying?

Mm-hmm. Like whatever that is, 

mm-hmm. 

Indicates something was probably wrong. And I don't think that Britney came out of a household of

like wholeness. Like I don't think that everything was complete there, and I don't think everything was like optimal for mental health success. Right. And I think that was to begin with, they always painted Britney's career as like this fun thing that she and Lynn did to like escape Jamie. Yeah. You know?

Yeah. Like, I don't, I don't see how you look at Britney Spears' life and, and wonder at all. Like I, to me it is very like, kind of like no shit. She has a personality disorder obviously. Um, I think it was probably exacerbated by fame and by all the other shit that she had to, I don't think you have to have like some like pivotal traumatic moment in her fame.

Mm-hmm. 

That broke her. I think that she was already kind of probably predisposition to that, you know? Yeah. Don't you think? Yeah. I mean, she talks about her childhood. I'm like. Sounds like honest to God. Sounds like BJ grew up in Louisiana. Poor ass parents. She's a successful one. She's a skeptical one.

She's a talented one. And look at BJ crazy. Love her, love her, trust her. Think she's successful. Think she did everything that, you know what I'm saying? But like crazy. Yeah. And hell crazy as hell. But like Britney Spears, like amplify that shit. 

Oh, 

I know. To everything that she had to go through. And like your parents like depend on you to like live.

Mm-hmm. 

And there seems to be a lot of enabling and we just want you to do this job, so we'll give you whatever you want. Um. Yeah. And chaotic at least too, and leading up to, I think that I haven't read or seen a single thing about Kevin's book, except for what you said. And then I saw another article that basically says what you said.

Mm-hmm. Um, but I would believe that Britney introduced him to drugs or something like, uh, yeah. Yeah. I would believe that. 'cause she had access to them or, okay. I think he was a drug dealer at some point. Oh. So I don't know that it came from her 100%. I think she had experience and he was like, oh, I was already selling weed and maybe was selling other things, you know?

Yeah. If you can find these Paris Hilton pictures, send me them. Well, I have to look harder. I know. Me too. So if I find 'em, I'll send 'em to you so you know, you can stop looking. Okay. Okay. Um, wow. Well, Britney Spears is my Roman Empire, so I'm obsessed. I could talk about her for hours. Hmm. Not right the second, but like, just generally I know.

I'm like, ugh. Because so many people that I'll, you know, you just talk to, uh, you just talk to on the street are like, I just thought she was crazy. And I'm like, I wanna be more nuanced. Okay. Well, I find people that are like, she was just like completely taken advantage of by the media and the system, and it's like, I wanna be more nuanced than that.

Like, there's, there was an inciting incident. 

Mm-hmm. 

And like. I can look back at like the umbrella thing. 

Mm-hmm. 

And be like, yeah, there's more to that. It's not like, like that was published in a way to make it look how, I mean, she did still take an umbrella to people. That's nuts. Yeah. And like, it made her look crazy and because she had just shaved her head like, yeah, that did look nuts.

Like, but there's like them following her all the time. Mm-hmm. That wasn't great on the part of the media. Um, but at the same time, if you watch a lot of other kind of paparazzi videos and stuff, like if you watch the archives, Britney was drunk as hell all the time and that's fine. But if people felt like it was fucking up the tour.

Mm-hmm. And then it's like, okay, well was she just drunk as hell all the time? She just wanted to party. Was she just like a party? Was she just a Tana? 

Mm-hmm. 

Was she just a Tana If Tana, like if someone like came and took control of Tana, like, oh, okay girl. Like you're getting too crazy. Like, you know, like Yeah.

That's something to think about. Intervene. Yeah. But like, it's like Tana has had to take responsibility for herself, whereas I don't think Brittany ever really has. Yeah. You know, maybe not. What does Kevin say about that? That's kind of what he says. Um, you know, it's over the course of like time and chapters, but at the end he's like.

She's never taken responsibility. She's always been a victim. And I was like, I mean, you're right. Her book, she's just a victim and she claims to not understand why people were so mad at her. You know? And it's like, that's not someone who's been honest about what really went on, you know? No, not at all.

No, I agree. So that's where I was like, I bet Paris Hilton is, and you know, maybe it's more nuanced than that because of the relationship they might have had. But I was like, maybe she's not like, oh, hey Brittany. Oh hey, you want me to come hang out, hang out with you over there? I was thinking, she was like, no, 'cause you're crazy and on drugs all the time.

No, I think that Paris. I think that Paris knows exactly what the fuck is up. I think so too. I think that she, but not in like a judgmental, like I'm better than that way and more of a, like I am intricately roped into like the reason way. Like Oh, okay. I think that Paris Hilton and her family

play a larger part in, it's kind of like, I don't know. I think that she deals drugs. Yeah. And I think that she makes connections with men who pay for sex. Mm-hmm. And so I'm not gonna say that like she traffics people, and I'm not gonna say that she traffics drugs, but she's not looking at Brittany like. I enjoyed our time together.

She's like, I think that she was the plug maybe for like, I think that she was the plug. I think that she probably was the person that like, if you wanted the good drugs or if you wanted to, like, if you wanted to go like fuck somebody for a bunch of money or be like a yacht or if you wanted to like know what yacht to go on, or if you wanted to know like what Prince overseas would be willing to pay big money for a celebrity.

I think that Paris Hilton happened to have that connection. Mm-hmm. And I think that that's how a lot of people that con connections to her, like,

I mean, I don't know Demi Lovato, um, Lindsay, obviously Kim, um. Oh God. Petras Kim Petras too. Yeah, there's just like a lot of like random ass people that have a lot of

serious drug addictions that are affiliated with Paris, and I think it's kind of like, that makes sense. Not a coincidence. Yeah. And it makes sense too, because it's like, think of the richest person, you know? Wouldn't you assume they also probably knew like where to get the best drugs? Yeah. And then why wouldn't they be like, I brought the party favors.

Yeah. Yeah. I think that Paris herself

doesn't either have to deal with the effects of addiction because she has like access to like all the stuff that. Other people don't like. Mm-hmm. Plastic surgery, she can IV every day if she wants to. She can like do it flush, like, I don't know. 

Mm-hmm. 

I don't think it's that deep, but I think that like, maybe Paris just, I, I've always felt this way.

I feel like Paris is that girl who like can always like, casually do drugs but never get like, addicted. And then you have like mm-hmm. The people with like addiction issues. 

Mm-hmm. 

And she like attracts those people 'cause she has the drugs, so. Yeah. Yeah. And she's just like, I don't know, I'm not strung out all the time.

Yeah. And so she, and so then like people are like attracted to that too, like that like, well I can just be like her and then she kind of like, like wipes her hands. Yeah. That's kind of how I think of her. And same with like, um. Yachting and shit. 

Mm-hmm. 

Like, do I think that she has slept with men for money?

Absolutely. 

Mm-hmm. 

Do I think that she has possibly been like abused in those situations? Probably. 

Mm-hmm. 

But I think that she's the plug she introduces you to the guy and she's like, oh no. He'll, like, you know, she's the ghislaine. Yeah. She's the ghislaine. I, I genuinely think that mm-hmm. About her and her mom.

And that's why I think they have all of these like, tragic figures around them always. 

Yeah. 

And maybe for Paris, it isn't like

intentional, but look at her like unsuccessful in fucking everything. And she's had. All the resources, like mm-hmm. She's had like, what, six reality shows. 

Yeah. 

She's had a DJ career that isn't taken seriously. Mm-hmm. Unless you are a Paris Hilton Stan. Yeah. Like me, who's out here like, no, you should take her DJ career seriously.

Other than that, it's not like she didn't like brand herself as like some other name or something. Like she is not taken seriously there music. She wants to be a pop star so bad. That's why she's obsessed with Britney and Demi like, and Paris can kind of, she can, she can carry a note that's like, well she has a good album.

Right. Well, the album doesn't showcase her. If, if you like hear her like sing, sometimes you can hear that like she can. Carrie, no. And her grandmother could sing. Oh, okay. But like, yeah, I don't know. All of this is getting cut out, by the way, when, when I was like, tell me about the pot. Like that's, I cannot go.

That's the end. That's the end. That's the end. That's the end. But we can keep talking. But like, I'm not gonna put all my weird conspiracy theories on the show. I love it. I'm into it. Well, I'll go on your show and talk about it, but like, but not mine. I have a, a integrity.

It is not that. It's just like, because I don't have integrity. Yeah. But, but Well, I feel like this is all very Troy McGee. Right? Yeah. We've learned a lot from him and then done our own research, I think. Yeah. I love Troy. Yeah. Dream guest. Dream guest on my podcast. Yes. That's my jojo Siwa impression Dream guest on my podcast.

Oh, if you listen to our Patreon from last week, it's when we start to discuss, Brittany and I say, well, it's interesting that Kevin is saying these things about her doing cocaine and then conceivably going home to like breastfeed the kids. Because in this conservatorship trial transcript, he said he'd never seen her do any drugs.

Mm-hmm. Which. 

I mean, that's a wild statement too. But, um, he's like, well, what is this? I, I, and I keep saying, this is the, this is the beginning of the conservatorship. That's where this is from. And he's like, oh, well I just thought you meant that. This is from the divorce. And I was like, I keep saying it's from the conservatorship.

I was like, if there was any time for him to say she does drugs, it's this time, you know? Yeah. And he's like, well, I didn't know what you were talking about. And I'm like, okay, I don't know what, where you were.

So the book at him, well, what can you do? I can't do anything. He did listen to this book though. So yeah. I think it was interesting this time for both of us to have some of the information. Yeah. Something. Yeah. Well, okay. Okay. Well, I gotta go. Yeah. Well, thank you for having me. You're welcome. Let's keep trucking, girl.

Just keep trucking. Keep trucking. Okay. Love you, girl. See you later. Okay, love you too. Bye. Bye.