We Need to Talk About the SUMMER HOUSE Fandom ft Jazmine Henley-Brown

Summer House Fandom Is Doing Too Much (Part 2) ft. Jazmine Henley Brown

Emily Rose is joined by Jazmine Henley Brown to talk Summer House and why this season’s fandom discourse got so intense. Jazmine shares she’s a day-one viewer, but only recently started engaging heavily because of the current scandal, and both agree the show is basically an unserious weekend-party series that’s being treated like team sports. They discuss whether West and Amanda “ruined their lives,” arguing everyone will be ultimately fine and audiences move on fast. They also discuss the leaked reunion audio, how editing and IP protection (like In the City) shape narratives, and how fan outrage affects cast behavior and content creators—especially around criticism of Ciara and the tendency to read nuance as taking sides.

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Transcript

 Hello, hello, hello. This is Who the Fuck Knows? with Emily Rose. I'm Emily Rose with a part two installment of We Need to Talk About the Fandom: Summer House. With me today, I'm so excited, you guys, I am so happy that she's here. She is a talk show host, content creator, sit-down comedian for Sharp Commentary. She is a, she's an executive producer who's worked for a bunch of any big podcasting audio network. She's done it. She's a friend. She's Atlanta-based, and now she's a wife. Please welcome Jasmine Henley Brown. How are you? Hello, friend. I'm so happy to be here, and thank you for that- Yes ... stunning introduction. I love that. Thank you, 'cause you wrote it. Yeah. We're gonna keep it real, okay? Yeah, look. But that's- that's what my website is for, okay? Like, that's exactly, that is how you get to know me, so. And- and- and as you say that, if you would like to know more, go to jhenleybrown.com- ... and you will... Because there's some stuff I didn't even get to, okay? Oh my God. Uh, Jasmine, how are you feeling? How are you doing? You know, I'm- I'm having a little bit of a sinus issue. Mm-hmm. But other than that, um, I can say that I am great. And yeah, you mentioned it, newlywed. Just got married at the beginning of this month, so- Ooh ... super excited about that. And I love, I think this is the third podcast that I've been on that, like, they've put that in my introduction. And I'm like, that's so sweet to me that you guys are- ... like, acknowledging this beautiful time in my life. So yeah. I'm actually really good outside from, you know, my nose being very runny but stuffy at the same time. So. Yes. Well, I have to say, I did leave wife not only 'cause I'm saving the best for last, but also because you are so much more than that. You are- Absolutely ... you have been in the, this content creation space in- in the rooms, as, uh, Angela and- and Phaedra would say. Um, you have been in this space for so long. Yeah. Um, in many different positions. Mm-hmm. And you kind of have a really important and interesting lens through which you view the reality shows that we cover. And- Thank you ... um, I know you've been recapping, uh, lots of things, but particularly Summer House on Carlos King's podcast with- Yeah ... um, Blue- Mm-hmm ... who is also, Blue is also on the, uh, Real Housewives of Atlanta panel that Carlos does every Monday that you guested on as well. Mm-hmm. And I- You and I have talked offline. Listen, there's not a lot of us. It's funny, I had a, I did a, a podcast last night, uh, for The Reality Is Podcast, and she was saying, she lives in New Jersey, she was like, "There's really not a lot in Atlanta." And I was like, "Thank you. We feel the same way." Yeah. Yeah. Um, but yeah. Unfortunately. You're Atlanta, you're living out here and, and- Mm-hmm you've really, like, made an effort to try and get some stuff going. Um, it seems like New York gets a lot and LA gets a lot, and Atlanta gets nothing. Yeah. Which is so weird 'cause it's Atlanta, I mean, I would say we're in, like, third place when it comes to kind of, like, cities with a lot happening in terms of, like, media and entertainment. Like, a lot of stuff is filmed here. Yeah. A lot of really iconic reality shows have happened here in Atlanta, and so it seems like we should get more. But you know, LA and New York City, they, they're old school, like, entertainment juggernauts- Yeah ... and hubs, and so it's like in order for Atlanta to be seen in that same light, I think it's just gonna take us a lot longer honestly. But they do- Yeah ... some stuff here but not, not nearly enough. Not nearly enough. Well, I think that we're, we obviously, this should be a shock to nobody, we have a huge music scene. Yeah. We have a huge sports scene. Sports media is really big here. Mm-hmm. Um, and then a lot of even for the scripted things that go on here, the shows- Yeah movies, whatever, um, a lot of it's outsourced. Like the casting directors for a lot, like Truly Media, some of these- Yeah ... um, reality shows, they, they don't, they, they're not based here in Atlanta. They're based- Right ... elsewhere, a lot of times- Mm-hmm ... in LA. Um, and so it is. It's, it's interesting to be so fascinated with this space, with the reality television space, and kind of feel like we should be connected to it, but there just hasn't been a bridge. And- Yeah ... I know that you are, I know you're passionate about that and I know you wanna get some bridges built. I would hope so. You know? Like, we, we will see what, what can be done here. I feel like there's e- there's certainly enough content creators. I think at this point, I, maybe we need to form a coalition- Yeah and, uh, really start talking to the higher-ups at these networks and being like, "Hey," like, "we petition to have the next premiere of whatever here." Mm-hmm. Because they fly everybody out to LA. They fly 'em- Mm ... out to New York. They can fly 'em to Atlanta. They really can. The cost will probably be about the same. Travel time will probably be about the same, so. Yep. Yeah. I agree. I agree. Well, Jasmine, I've brought you here today for a topic- that has had hour, I know, I know just between me and you probably, like, hours worth of voice memos. Voice messages, yeah. And has had the internet, particularly Threads, 'cause that's what I'm primarily on, uh, on fire, and that's Summer House. Got it. And Summer House discourse, particularly, particularly, excuse me, around this season, um, I kinda wanna hear what your journey with Summer House is and, and where you've, when you started watching. Are you, like, a day one watcher? Mm-hmm. And have you kind of, have you engaged before this season in the, the discourse with the fans? Yeah, so I am a day one Summer House viewer. Like, I was literally watching Vanderpump Rules the, on the episode that they did the backdoor pilot into Summer House when- Mm-hmm ... Stassi and, uh, was it Kristen and Katie? Yeah. When they flew to the Hamptons to- And Scheana ... and Scheana, yep, to meet with the Werkus twins, and Kyle called S- Stassi Steve Jobs because she had a turtleneck swimsuit on- So goofy in the hot, hot tub. So yeah. I have been, you know, into Summer House since then. There were a couple of seasons that I ended up taking off, um, but then I ended up going back and watching them. Until this year, the only season of Summer House that I hadn't seen was the season that Kyle and Amanda got married. Okay. But then I recently went back to watch that one as well, and I've been watching it so long I even got my husband into watching it a couple- Nice ... of seasons ago. He watched probably, like, two seasons of Summer House at this point, so he knows some of the players. Um, when- Earlier this year when Kyle and Amanda announced their separation, I was like, "Babe, Amanda, not fun. Her and Kyle are- ... are separating." He was like, "Oh my gosh," because, like, he had watched them for a few seasons. Right. So yeah. I've, I've been into Summer House. I will say I've never talked about it as much until this season, um, and that is, you know, one, thanks to Threads, and then two, obviously this huge, like, scandal- Yeah uh, happened, if you will. But I will talk about it in passing. I think I've made some videos about it. I watched the spinoff of, um, Summer House: Martha's Vineyard. Mm-hmm. I made some videos about that on my YouTube. So I've been in the Summer House universe for a while. I'm so sorry my nose is off. It's okay. Just gave a little bit. Um, yeah, so I've, I've been, been in the world for a minute. Nice. I think, yeah, so have you... And, and you've also on your channels and in your career, you've done commentary about a whole bunch of different types of shows. Yeah. And I'm curious if you've- If you, have you, have you engaged in discourse about any of the other Bravo shows that you've covered in the past? Like, is this your first time kind of like really leaning into it? Or do you have something to compare it to? No. I mean, I've done, excuse me, when Twitter was like really big for like live tweeting and stuff, I used to do it a lot. Okay. So I mean, over the course of, I mean, how long have you... Twitter is what? Since 2010, I think was- Yeah ... when I was on Twitter at first. Yeah. And so whenever live tweeting was like super popular, I would do it a lot over there. Mm-hmm. Um, it's never, like for me, Summer House, until this season, there has never been a lot for me to like break down. So I've never been involved in like super like, um, detailed discourse around Summer House until this season. But yeah, like the Real Housewives of Atlanta ha- I've always been heavily involved in discussions around that. That's my favorite like Real Housewife city. Mm-hmm. It's the one city that I've never missed a season of. Even if I don't finish the season- You start it ... I've never not started- Yeah. ... one of their seasons. Um, what, what else? Why am I draw- oh, Vanderpump Rules, obviously. Right. Love Vanderpump Rules. Um- Why am I drawing a blank? From like our whole time Did you talk about, uh, Salt Lake City at all? No, I did not talk about Salt Lake City. Okay. I actually like, uh, I started watching Salt Lake City in the first season. I didn't like it. Mm-hmm. And so I stopped watching it, and then, um, was it like late last year I started to get into Salt Lake City- Mm-hmm ... and I started with the Monica Garcia season. Oh. You know, season four. Such a good season. Girl. Obsessed. I watched it 'cause I, 'cause you know, I've been hearing all the girls say like, Salt Lake City is that one, and I'm like, I really didn't f- I didn't get that when I watched- Yeah the first season. I started watching season four and I was like, oh, I know why I didn't like it the first season. I didn't like Jen Shah. Yeah. That's why. That's... I just couldn't get into it, right? Yeah. So season four she was not on there, and Monica Garcia was on there. Oof. And I remember watching that whole season being like, Monica Garcia is batshit crazy. Like- Yeah ... something is up with this girl. Oh, yeah. Um, and then- Oh, yeah ... and then she, uh, she recently followed me on Instagram and I started feeling bad. It's okay. She's in on the joke I think. Exactly, and that... But that's- ... that's exactly what made me like follow her back, 'cause I was like, oh, she, she knows exactly like how people feel- Yes about her. Um, yeah, so I started watching that season, and then this last season that they had, I haven't finished it, but I watched like the fourth and fifth season, and I think season six is the one that they just finished, right? Yes, yes. I think so. Yeah, I haven't finished that season yet. But yeah, so I wouldn't say I'm a diehard Salt Lake City fan, but I do recognize that it's a really good show. It is, and I... The Jen Shah, not liking it because of Jen Shah is, um, completely understandable. Uh, and it was a sentiment shared amongst a lot of fans, so you're, you're totally in the majority I think there. Um, speaking of which, being in the majority, I think, uh, something that you've been saying, I feel like you say it every episode that you've recapped Summer House with Carlos King thus far, you know, it's so interesting how we can all watch the same show and have totally different perspectives, right? Yeah. Summer House, and you tell me if you, if you, uh, agree with this, I feel like Summer House, though- This is just my honest opinion, uh, isn't, isn't that great. I think it's entertaining. I don't think it's, like, the best show on Bravo. Right. And somehow the show will ha- has, has, like, two camps of people, and it really feels like I'm watching a different show than what a lot of the most popular discourse, uh, kind of dictates. Do you feel that? Oh, gosh, so much. Like, so much to the point where I'm like, I had to go within and ask myself, like, "Are you just trying to be contrarian?" Yeah. It's just like, no, right? But I think from, you know, all of the, um, multiple voice memos that you and I have sent back and forth- ... to each other, I think there is a group. Unfortunately, it is a minority group of us- Mm-hmm ... who can watch and engage with reality TV from, like, um, a very objective POV. Yeah. I think a lot of people watch this, and this is not, um, a knock on people, but a lot of people have a very, like, uh, binary way of viewing most things in life. Yeah. So they need, like, a hero and a villain. Yeah. So someone has to be good, and anybody that opposes that thing that they think is good, it just automatically makes them bad versus, like, I... You and I have talked about this. We're watching Summer House. A lot of people on this cast could be considered shitty at some point. Like, they all- Mm-hmm ... have had really good moments. They all have had really bad moments. But, um, within the larger fandoms, and this is happening across, like, a lot of shows, Love Island- Oh, yeah ... Secret Lives of Mormon Wives. Mm-hmm. You know, like, any reality TV show with a large fandom, um, people will choose their favorite, and it's like once they choose a favorite, you cannot go against that. That- Right ... anybody that opposes that, you are persona non grata, right? Yeah. And so, you know, for me, I just don't, I don't stand anybody on reality TV. There are people that I like a lot, and particularly in the work that I do, I meet a lot of these people and, like, interact with them. And so obviously when you meet people in real life and you're like, "You're nothing like what they portray you as on TV," and you- Right you kinda, you know, you, you start to have a different opinion about them. So that does make me, like, a little more, I guess, um, or a little less objective. Mm-hmm. No, actually, less objective is not true 'cause if they're on my screen, if you're on my screen, the only thing you owe me is entertainment, and I get to critique that entertainment- Right in whichever way I see fit. But it does make me... For instance, Candiace Dillard Bassett. Mm. I've met Candiace a couple of times went to her, one of her parties at her house- Mm ... a couple years ago, right? So when I had to critique her on The Traitors, it was like, damn, I have to critique what they're showing me on TV even though I know her to be something else, right? Yeah. So that makes it a little more challenging, but I don't think it takes it away, right? So I think, you know, um- I forgot what your initial question was, 'cause I always ramble and then I forget. No, no, no, no. Okay. I'm so engaged with what you're saying, I don't know and I don't care. I don't know. Well, I will say this, it's interesting, I'm actually coming into this recording, uh, a little, um... Oh, God, I don't wanna sound like chewy or whatever, but like a little shook. Um, and I don't wanna give any details, um, but a close friend of mine, a longtime close friend of mine, uh, has become a public figure in s- Mm ... some regard in the past several months. And something recently happened with them that is, uh, has caused discourse about them on Reddit, and I just found out about it. Oh. And I'm, like, reading it, and I'm reading, there's, like, multiple threads, and I'm like, it's nothing like, it's not, like, anything, like, sexual, nothing like that. Right. Um, so I'm not, like... I just wanna put that out there. Um, but, like, reading people talk about someone that you know, and, like, especially for me, like, I know this person very, very, very well, um, know their family, like, seriously, um, it is like, it kind of, only, like- affirms for me that, that we have to talk about these people like they're people. Yeah. And I think that, and, and that doesn't, and, and that doesn't mean, like, you have to always be nice about everything that you say. Mm-hmm. But I think that what Summer House fans are struggling with is they recognize the humanity in themselves a- and then somehow project it onto who they're seeing on television, um, disregarding that person's humanity. Mm-hmm. And, like, that person is gonna fuck up, no matter who they are. Um, that person is gonna be better, is gonna, like, do things that are, like, kind of understandable even if you don't really like them. Um, I, I think that that's what the fandom is struggling with, especially since... See, now I've told you this a million times, uh, I don't like anybody on this cast. Yep. Like, I don't like anybody on this cast. The only person I like is Lindsay, and right now how she's acting on the internet is irritating to me. Um, I don't like when Bravo lebs do too much on the internet, like Lisa Rinna. Like- Mm ... as good as she... She's great reality television. Absolutely. She did too much her last season of Re- Real Housewives of Beverly Hills on the internet, and I don't know that that's why she did not come back, but I wouldn't be shocked if it were. Right. Um, I think that, uh, Candace is a good example of somebody who, like, very entertaining on the show. Her internet presence is very obnoxious to- ... to me. I'm speaking for me. Mm-hmm. I'm not speaking for Jasmine. Um, but regardless, I think that people who are Summer House fans I think that there's, like, a... Tell me this, what do you think- Summer House is about. If someone was like, "Jasmine, tell me what Summer House is about," like from the jump to now, what would you say? So this is actually why I've never engaged in like serious discourse around Summer House, 'cause it's always been the fun show. It's not a serious show. Right? Yeah. It's not a serious... So it's, what is, what is the word? It's unserious. It's unserious. It's very unserious. Yeah. And so yeah, if I were describing Summer House, I'm like, it is literally about a group of people who go and get drunk every weekend in the Hamptons. Yeah. And they just do batshit crazy things, and we watch them. And then also, yeah, there's a couple on there that should absolutely not be together. At all. But they're together. Yeah. Um, and we also have to, in the midst of watching everybody get drunk and have fun, we have to watch them argue with each other. Yeah. But that's what Summer House has been to me. Mm. And I think it's really unfortunate because I feel like this season that just passed, season 10- Mm was actually one of the best seasons that they've had in a long time. Definitely agree. Definitely agree. Yes. And it was overshadowed by this scandal. Mm-hmm. Like, had this scandal not happened- Mm ... I would've just been like, this is the b- this is one of the best seasons of Summer House probably since like the first season of it. Yeah. Yeah. You know what I mean? I, I tot- I mean, I've, again, famously... First of all, I didn't even watch last season. Whatever- ... whatever people are talking about, Jesse, Lexi, I have no idea. I, I... That didn't even exist to me, right? Like, I have famously said, like, Summer House is just not- For m-, I mean, again, I think it's entertaining. I've never thought it was the best show on Bravo. Right. Same. Um, 'cause it's not that serious. I, I do like to like, I like the drama, um, which is probably why I was so engaged with this show before the scandal, 'cause I was so ready to see Amanda and Kyle break up, bro. I was like, "Thank God they're not gonna be together. They are so annoying." I've never... I was saying this last night on, um, Noor's podcast. I was like, you know, if I was in the room with the two... Like, and I have. Like, if I have friends, like married or f- people in a relationship friends that are bickering like that, I have literally said to them, "Hey, y'all gotta go somewhere else. I don't wanna hear it." Like, they're your children, 'cause, like, they get in their- Yeah ... own bullshit. Yeah. I find it so annoying. So, like, I was ex- I was excited to see that. And another thing, I don't know if you noticed this, but in the first couple of episodes, again, this is pre-scandal, um, they really leaned in, uh, the, the cast, particularly Amanda and Kyle, into breaking the fourth wall. Yeah. Yeah. Which I know some people really hate. Um, I love, because at this... Uh, well, I love for shows that get to this point, right? Mm-hmm. Because at some point I wanna watch the reality, and the reality is that m- most of the shit that they're fighting about is because of the show. It's not because of, like, I don't know, like, th- they're not really upset that you know, they didn't get their costume for the pool party- Right in time, you know? Like, it's about more than that. I agree. And I think also that has a lot to do with what's now going on when we're talking about West and Amanda. We've got In The City. We've got, there was, like, allegedly, like, an Ozarks spinoff that was gonna happen, and then that seemingly bit the dust, which I'm kind of upset about. I don't know how you feel. I, I would've definitely watched that. Was fascinated, but yeah. See, I never, I never took that seriously. Like, we- You didn't? No. Only because, like, I never, I never saw any, like- And this is no shade. I never saw any reputable sources report on that. Oh, yeah. No. Yeah. And then, like, nobody from, like, any, like, proposed cast, like, n- no, no hard evidence ever came out about that. I think the, the biggest piece or the most hard-hitting piece of evidence was, like, that West had a little bit of a slip-up in his interview with Jon Hamm, and he, like- Mm ... maybe started to, like, tell him about a project. But, um, n- nobody ever- Confirm ... nobody reputable ever, like, confirmed that. So I just have always... I mean, if people got excited about it, I was not gonna, like, rain on anybody's parade, but- Mm-hmm ... I was just like, "I don't know if that was ever a thing," you know what I'm saying? Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I, I think... And again, these, the fans oftentimes think that they understand the inner workings of, like, producing a show in a way that they simply don't understand. No, not at all. Um, and if there was a, a spinoff, like Ozarks, like, in the works we weren't gonna get it. I, I, I think that there... What... L- let's talk about this, 'cause I wanna hear what y- I wanna hear what you think about this. Something that I keep hearing content creators, fans, and even in this, uh, aftermath bonus episode that we got, um, I hear it repeated a lot, like, "West and Amanda blew up their lives." And it's this, like, sentiment of, like, they ruined their lives because everything was hinging on the two of them, and there's no way that Bravo would have them blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Mm-hmm. What do you think about that line of discourse that, like, Bravo just, like, morally wouldn't be able to deal with Amanda and West? Or, like, what do you think the real story is there? I, I completely oppose that sentiment- Yeah. ... because in what world, and this is no shade to Bravo- Mm-hmm ... in what world has a Bravo ever had a, a, um, solid pointing moral compass? Never. You know what I'm saying? Like, they have- Mm-hmm ... platformed people regardless of how you feel about them. They have platformed people who might have, you know, bad political, uh, affiliations or- Mm-hmm ... have done things that some people would consider terrible. They've plat- I mean, NBC Universal period, right, like they have platformed... Thank you. They have platformed, um- Lots of people with questionable moral guides. Yeah. Okay? So, uh, Wes and Amanda deciding to hook up with each other at the end of Amanda's marriage and, like, outside of Wes and Sierra's couple month, uh, tri- what is the word? Tryst? Tryst, yeah. Tryst that they had. Dalliance. They, they were... Right. They were beef- exactly. They were beefing longer or she was beefing with him longer than they were ever even together. Facts. I don't think Bravo cared that much. And, like, for people to say that they blew up their lives, I'm like, I think I even put out a thread about this. Everyone in this situation is gonna be just fine. Okay. Amanda is going to be fine. Mm-hmm. Wes is going to be fine, as evidenced by the fact that there are still people right now who are... Oh, my gosh, sorry. No, I don't care. Okay. Is this gonna be video? No. Oh, okay, good, 'cause I'm like- So you're totally fine. Oh. Oh, sorry. Run away, girls. Okay, I'm so sorry. No, you're fine. Um, shoot, where, what was I saying? What was I saying? Um, you were talking about they're gonna be fine. Yes. Evidenced now by... Right, evidenced by the fact that there are still, like, loads of people who are on their side. Yeah. Like, there are people out there who have been saying since day one, Amanda did not owe Sierra anything. Yeah. Like, Wes didn't owe Sierra anything. And I'm like, poor Kyle. Nobody has... None, none of those people were mentioning the fact that, like, I mean, she was still technically married to K- still is- She is technically married to Kyle. So yeah, I don't think that they have blown their lives up. I think they, you know, it's a sore spot within the fandom right now. But, you know, if there's one thing that I've learned over the course of, like, watching reality TV, especially now in the social media age, audiences are notoriously fickle. Yeah. And they will hate you this season today. Give it a couple of seasons, uh, get Wes on The Traitors and let him have a, a good run on The Traitors. Mm-hmm. Get him on House of Villains. Get Amanda on some stuff. In a couple of years people will act like this never happened, or they will be like, "It wasn't a big, it wasn't that big of a deal." Yeah. So nobody has blown up their lives. They're all going to be a-okay. They're really going to be just fine. I think, yeah, there's, there's a lot of, like, little... We don't have a whole lot of time today, but I, I there's a few little things that I'm like, are y'all nuts? I've seen calls for, an- I don't wanna assume that these people never watched Summer House before the scandal happened, but, like, it seems like certainly they haven't watched any other Bravo shows. Um, like s- like I think it's pretty clear that at the reunion, right? And the whole reason we needed the aftermath episode, um, or not the whole reason but part of the reason als- the whole reason is money. The real reason is- Right ... Bravo knew they could milk another episode out of it. Yes. Um, but for the viewers, like, they felt, a lot of people felt really unsatisfied coming out of the reunion, um, because, uh, Wes and Amanda were als- I'm gonna say allegedly, but I think it's pretty clear they were under the influence of, like, a pretty significant altering substance. Like, more so than, like, a beta blocker or, like, an Adderall. Right. Like, I think that they were pretty significantly sedated. Um, so that was part of it. Part of it was, in my opinion, I wanna know what you think about this, ain't much to damn say. There's not that much to damn say. Thank you. Thank you. We, we had this discussion on Reality with the King. Mm-hmm. I was saying, like, what could they have said? It was a lose-lose situation for them. Mm-hmm. I do agree, especially when you, uh, look at Amanda on the aftermath versus at the reunion. Mm-hmm. It, it was so obvious that she was, that something was going on with her- Mm-hmm ... um, on the reunion. But yeah, it's... Listen. I don't know. Yeah. Like, it, it- What could they have said? Like, Blue said they should've, they should've broken up. I'm like, you know, that would, that would have satisfied a large part of the audience, but, like, it still wouldn't have been the right thing. Like, there's nothing that they could do or say at this point that's going to make people be like, "Okay, you know, let them ride off into the sunset," or, "We forgive them." So they're damned if they do, damned if they don't. I'm also like, broken up, are they in a relationship? Because never have they actually said that, and I think that's what's been driving me crazy, is ever since the, ever since the rumors started, it's been like, wow, well now he's gonna go and he's gonna be... You, you, you reject Sierra, now you're gonna go, uh, husband up with Amanda? And I'm like, I think, if I'm being honest, Wes is gonna continue to do exactly what the fuck he does to every other girl, which is, uh- uh, feign loyalty or feign, like, monogamy and, uh- Mm-hmm ... or, or s- a, s- a relationship more serious than it is. Yeah. And, uh, just screw whoever he wants. Uh, and I haven't heard either of them say anything to the contrary, and I think that, like, Amanda knows that's what's up. I don't... Like, I, I don't know. Like, I feel like people, because they shaped this narrative, fans, in their heads of, like, what was happening, maybe based on their own experience or maybe based on, like, Scandoval, I don't know, but, like, they, they made this thing that it isn't necessarily. And then on the reunion stage, did you, did you hear anything from any of the cast that was, like, a perspective Of the c- 'cause a big thing is like, "Oh, well obviously they've been screwing since filming the season that we just watched." Uh, I didn't hear anybody give a perspective from how they felt at the time that would support that. Did, did you? No, I didn't actually. And I, I'm, like the whole timeline thing is I, I... So many people are hung up on the fact that Wes and Amanda are lying about the timeline, and I'm like, "If they are, there's no proof to the contrary." Yeah. You know what I'm saying? Yeah. So it's like we could look at all of these like weird instances, but like what I've, what I've been saying since this scandal came out is like they are a very touchy feely group. Yes. Like they lay in, you know, they get in bed together. They, they change in front of each other. They cuddle. They kiss, you know, whenever they want to. So it's like stuff that looks weird through the lens of this scandal is just shit that they would've been doing anyway. Yeah. So like I don't think we w- will ever like know if they're lying about the timeline or not. Um, I will say to the point of you saying or, or kind of questioning if they're actually in a relationship, Wes has claimed that he's, he's exclusive with Amanda. I think that's what he was saying in like the third part of the reunion- Oh, yeah ... or he was saying it with Kyle. So like he did say that 'cause I remember thinking like, "Oh, this is like the first time that I'm hearing him like claim something or like say out loud that he is exclusive with someone." So he is like in that regard I guess moving differently with Amanda, but I don't think it's because like he just wants to. I think they got caught and like- Mm-hmm ... they're kind of digging their, their heels in the sand with this relationship or whatever. Mm-hmm. And so I think they kind of have to put that, that face on. But I, I think he is gonna try to play the exclusive game with Amanda for as long as he can. Yeah. 'Cause Wes is, Wes is a fuckboy, and that's another thing I was saying on Reality K- with the King. There's like some people are trying to throw in a racial element because Sierra just so happens to be Black. I think so, Sierra just so happens to be a Black woman on Wes' roster. Mm-hmm. I don't think Wes was shitting on Sierra because she's Black. Right. Like I think Wes just treats women that way. Yeah. And the optics of him doing that to Sierra don't look great. Right. But I don't think it's specifically because she's Black. Like, he has just women... He just leaves a trail of women wherever he goes. That's what fuckboys do. Yes. That's just what fuckboys do. And I, I think that not only is he, like, uh, I don't think that he discriminates against anybody for their race. Uh, he also just, like, if you're a pr- if you're a beautiful woman, I think he's gonna smash. West loves bad bitches. He loves bad bitches. He loves bad bitches, and for some reason he's able to bag them, so It's, I think what it is is that every... I think that there's some truth to the idea that, like, with every bad bitch he bangs, he gains access to another level of bad bitchery, you know? I, I agree with that. I agree with that. 'Cause once you have one under your belt, it's like, "Oh," you know? Yes. "I, I can do this. I can do this." I have an ex who I'm, like, constantly offended by because Maybe he doesn't date bad, but just normally. And then, uh, then he dated me, and then, uh, I was offended- Hello ... by the last chick he dated. Um, and I was like, "Hey, I really wish you would just really, like, give me some credit." Um, so really I think it's- You weren't as bad as Betty? Yes, I think so. And, um, I mean, that's really mean to say, but, uh- Not really. Uh, yeah, everyone will be fine. Um. Yeah. Um, yeah, but I think, I think that's, I think that's true, too. I think that people... Also, guys like West Maybe they're rare in New York. I know white guys like West all over the city of Atlanta. There's a guy that works at a bar in Atlanta called Righteous Room- Mm-hmm ... that looks exactly like West. And, uh, I don't think it's, like, abnormal for him to have, like, a diverse group of friends or anything. Like, I don't know. I, I, I can't... I don't know. I don't know him personally. But, like- Yeah ... I, I just think it is kind of interesting. I'm kind of coming from a lens of, like, uh, people are like, "What's up with his style and everything?" I'm like, I know a bunch of guys that are like that here. And he's from the Midwest. Like, I grew up in the Midwest. Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. Like, I, I have seen every type of white boy that you- Yeah ... can put in front of me. Like, I'm never shocked because I feel like I've encountered, I've, I've dated some of them. Oh, yeah. You know what I'm saying? Some of them, like, in my past. Yeah. So it's like West, I, I, I think I've said this before, like, W- I don't, I have not found West particularly, like, oh my gosh, so handsome. No. But I think I said, like, if I ran into West, like, if I was in my 20s, this is back in the day, day, day, and I bumped into West in a club, like on Water Street in Milwaukee- ... and we struck up a conversation, it wouldn't shock me to, like, walk away with his number. Like, w- you know what I'm saying? For us to walk away with each other's numbers, like, it wouldn't be surprising. So nothing about his style, like, I don't feel like he's appropriating anything. Like, I genuinely just feel like he's just a product of, like, being in different, like, diverse circles. He played collegiate sports. Yeah. You know what I'm saying? Yeah. So it's like that also adds another layer of just being around a bunch of different people. Mm-hmm. Um, and then kind of co-opting the styles, but not in a malicious way. So, like- Yeah ... yeah, he's just a product of, of where he grew up, I think. I don't know. It's his environment. The Midwest. Yeah, some people have very segregated, uh, experiences living in the Midwest. I personally just kind of grew up with, like, everything- Mm-hmm in my face, so. Yeah. Yeah. I think, uh... Well, okay, something else that we gotta talk about, uh, the, the response... Okay, so we get this aftermath episode, right? Yeah. First, the first quarter or the first third is Amanda and Lindsay, where Lindsay, uh, pulls it out of her, right? That- She was, uh, drunk and on drugs all the time hanging out with West and was single for the first time, and she doesn't really know how it happened, but they started banging, you know? Uh, which was good enough for me. That's what I assumed the whole time anyway. So I didn't really need her to explain that. Um, well, and actually let me, let me switch gears really quick because I was thinking Lindsay, um, pulled it out of her. Then I was like, she smoked it out of her because Lindsay famously on the leaked audio from the reunion says, "You got smoked out talking to West and Amanda." Yeah. But we never heard that on the actual reunion. And, uh, so sorry to switch gears, but I, I really wanna ask you, what is your theory for the re- reunion leaked audio? What do you think happened there? Um, who... How did it get leaked? Like, what, what's your, what's your conspiracy or your, your thought process? To be honest with you, I don't think I have really thought too deeply into it. Like, it just seems like it's so funny with this. There are some things that I really think a lot about, and some shit I'm just like, "Okay, whatever." It's just like, it happens. Yeah. Right? Yeah. Um, cost of doing business. So I think the leak was just like, oh, somebody on production Wanted to record this. They sent it probably to a tr- someone that they thought they could trust, and then that person sent it out, and, like, it just unfortunately got out that way. Yeah. But I don't think there was, like, a big conspiracy behind the leaked audio. Like, um, I think Blue... Also, I, I keep referencing Reality with the King, but it's 'cause I've been recapping- Right so- You literally just did it, yeah. With the... Yeah. She was saying that, um, she thinks or she heard- Mm-hmm ... that they, a producer leaked the audio from their union because Bravo was gonna try to give Amanda a softer edit. I don't know that it's that deep, because there, there's been this, uh, there's been a lot... Not to, not to, like, go off on a tangent and not come back up. No, please. I know where you're going, and I want you to go there. Yeah. Yeah. There's been almost, like, a everybody... There's a rumor that Bravo is doing everything in their power to save Amanda or to, to prop Amanda up because of Summer House and In the City, and I'm like, the success of, the success of those shows does not hinge on Amanda. Right. Like, she's never been a dynamic reality star. Like- No ... she's only been slightly interesting because of her husband and then- Mm-hmm ... because of her friendships. But her as, like, a standalone person, you could axe her from Summer House and from In the City and, like, we wouldn't miss anything. Right. So I just can't get behind this idea that there's a concerted effort to try to protect Amanda at all costs. Mm-hmm. Uh, 'cause she's just not that dynamic to me. So I don't- Yeah ... believe that there was any, like, um, excuse me, efforts to give her a softer edit and they needed to, uh, leak this audio. I just think somebody was working, they recorded something, wanted to send it to their bestie, like, "Hey, bestie, listen to, listen to how, like, Amanda's being ate, ate up." Yeah. Eaten up, but I know ate up is, like, how, how the girls say it. But listen, listen- How the kids are saying it, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Um, listen to this. Listen to how they're going at her. I think they sent it to someone, that person sent it, and it just kind of got out of control, 'cause, you know, we, you and I, got exclusives of the audio- We did. We did ... before it was Before the world got it, we got it in our group chat. But, um- Yeah, so I think that's just what happened with- Yeah ... with the leaked audio. And then they, they played a good amount of, like, what we heard on the show. They cut some stuff out, but that's just par for the course. Mm-hmm. A lot of stuff gets left out on, left on the editing, on the cutting room floor. So- Yeah ... I think they did... You know, it was... I don't think there was a big conspiracy around it, do you? No, I don't think it was... I mean, I mean, I mean, I, uh, I'm of two minds. I'm either like, it was the ultimate conspiracy, or it just wasn't that deep. Uh, I don't like the black-and-white thinking, but I think with that it's one or the other, 'cause like, the searching the... Okay. If Bravo's trying to protect anything, it's the In the City IP, right? 'Cause that's what makes the money. Yeah. That's what gets viewers. People are not tuning in for, from what I understand and from, like, how I view it, people are not actually, um, as, as attached as they may seem to these characters online. Uh, the, the individual talent is not as profitable as- Right ... the IP. Yeah. And what I think Bravo was concerned about wasn't, like- wasn't so much about Amanda bad, West bad, like Kyle and Sierra good. Like, it wasn't like that. It was like If Wes and Amanda's relationship did cross over the time of In The City, then everything that we filmed and edited and, and put ready to go won't make sense. Right. And the viewers know that. Yeah. So if there's any kind of, like, narrative shifting happening, it's specifically to make In The City make sense. And- I agree ... I also think, this is my humble opinion, not so humble, but this is my opinion, when they announced that shit, I was like, "We don't need this shit. There, it's not gonna d- it's stupid. No one's gonna watch that." Thank you. But if they do watch it, what are they gonna be watching for? Not Lindsay, who I like. Um, they're gonna be watching for, like, how... They wanna figure out how did Kyle and Amanda fall apart. Right. And my thing is, I never believed whatever they said in the first place. Like, I think, I don't think you can look at their marriage and say that, like, they've been in a good place and all of a sudden it fell apart. I don't think they were ever going to stupid marriage counseling, not, not like they were, well, not like they're trying to say on the show. I just don't- Mm ... I just genuinely don't believe it, 'cause I don't believe this cast of people. I agree. I think, I think that they have, more than any of the other, like, docu-soaps, I think that they have a, a lot of time to kinda, off camera, uh, because of the nature of how they film the show every weekend, to, uh, kinda, like, get together and, and coordinate. Yeah. Yeah. And so I think, I think a lot of what this cast does is just, like, PR, and, like, and, like, promo- they're more like influencers than anything else, you know? I totally agree with you, and honestly, that speaks to, that speaks to a larger issue that I'm having just with reality TV overall. Mm-hmm. I think we've reached the point in reality TV, it's been around for so long, everyone that goes on is so self-aware that we're- Yes ... very rarely getting, like, real shit when we see- Yeah people. Like, even if it's a new show- Mm ... the people on that new show, they have been consuming reality TV for what, like, 20 years at this point of you? Yeah. Like, um, so it's like I am less interested in most reality TV these days, 'cause like you just said, like, I feel like they all just kind of either, if they don't come together as a group, the individuals sit down and they're like, "Okay, this is what I'm gonna present this season." Yeah. "This is, like, how I wanna come off." Um, if you're a new person on a reality show, "Okay, I want people to call me, like, the next NeNe. I want them to call me the next Kenya, the next Lisa Rinna," whatever. Right. So everybody kind of comes in, comes in with this, uh, agenda- Yes ... that they, that... You know what I'm saying? That they're- Yeah ... trying to complete for a season, and so it makes watching it less fun. Like, I'm, I'm starting to become very disillusioned with all of it because I'm just like, it's not even fun, okay? Reality TV is supposed to be fun. Yes. Um, and I'm not really having that much fun with it. And so yeah, when they announced In The City I was just like, "I don't care." 'Cause, like, t- I know you love Lindsay- I know a lot of you guys love Lindsay. I'm very indifferent on her. Like- Yeah ... I wouldn't, I wouldn't say, I think she's a great reality TV star and she is very dedicated to being a reality TV star. Yes. So I respect Lindsay. Yes. That's the thing. The, I think that's- I always- me too. I- Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I, I always respect a bitch who's, like, dedicated to their craft and wanting to do that well. But, like, I'm not emotionally attached to her at all. Like, Kyle and Amanda, we've been watching them bicker and argue for the better part of, like, 10 seasons- 10 years, child ... now, so it's like, yeah, I, I think my only curiosity, you, you actually just brought this up, with In The City was like, okay, what was, what was the point in which they just decided that they weren't gonna do it anymore? That's what I would've wanted to see. Yeah. But now we know everything we're watching is, has happened like, what, like a year and a half ago? Yeah. Which is like, why would you film that and then, like, release it so late? That's, that's kinda silly in and of itself. Yeah. It's an, it's an interesting, uh, yeah, the release of In The City and the rollout and the promotion for it has been really strange. Yeah. And, and hard for me to... I think that they're like, it's, they're, obviously they're trying to do, like, a, the Valley with In The City. Yeah. Um, but I think that the Valley should be canceled. I think they should have canceled it two seasons ago, but- ... no one listens to me. So here we are. You, you and Donna, Donna Bolling both feel that way. She said- Donna Bolling thinks this is the last season of The Valley ... I, I can't, you know, I can't predict, but God, I hope so. Put these people out of their damn misery, honey. The Valley is, like, particularly bad- Mm-hmm ... this season, and it's like- It's not even aspirational at all. Like- No, no ... you know what I'm saying? Like- I know. ... with VPR it was like... Well, also, I think VPR was a very special s- time because it, it, once, it, it, it just came out at a great time, and then the audience was much younger. So, like, it was kind of aspirational to watch these people, even though they were just working as servers in this restaurant. Yeah. Watching them, like, work as servers and go through relationships and try to maybe become actors or performers or something when you're also in your 20s trying to become whoever you're gonna become. Yeah. That's why VPR was so interesting. And then we see them in The Valley, and it's like this is the other side of adulthood, and it's like, oh, bitch, that does not look fun at all, actually. No. It looks, it- I've never... I worked with kids for eight years, and I don't want children, but boy howdy, do I super not want to ever have children or a family. Like, I'm, I'm actually so good with the cat. Like- We're good. Um- Yeah ... yeah. Um, so yeah, In the City to me, also too, they, they took, you know, I guess who they consider, like, the stars of Summer House. Um, but then the people that they surrounded with those stars are, I'm so disinterested in, in them. So, so boring. Like, I have no interest in any of the people on the cast of In the City, and they just don't seem particularly engaging to me. I don't know. No. I tried to watch a couple of episodes for, um, again, the podcast I was on last night, and, uh, the reality is, and I was like, I told Noor, I was like, yeah, I had to fast-forward through all the other stuff with these other people 'cause I just, I can't care. Yeah. Like, it's hard to care. Now, I wanna ask you this. I have just two more things I wanna ask you. Sure. The, the first thing, so kind of getting back to what we were saying about- fans' response and the black and white and the kinda like team sports is what I like to say, like that kind of attitude that people take towards reality television. Yeah. What do y- do you think when we're reflecting on how the Summer House people, right, how they show up or how you're saying a lot of the new, of reality shows are not as engaging because people are not showing up authentic because they wanna present a certain way and they wanna be received a certain way. How do you think fan discourse plays into that? Uh, a- and maybe, I, I think that my opinion is that, you know, you can yell at Bravo all day, "Fire this, fire that, fire them," but Bravo's not gonna do that, right? Mm-hmm. They're not listening to us. The only people that are listening to us are the talent. Yeah. And that's what's making them get in their own heads and, and not be authentic. Do you, do you kinda see where, what I'm saying with that? Yeah, no, and I 100% agree with you. I, I made a video about this, like, two years ago- Mm-hmm ... and it was, it was specifically about, like, the Housewives, right? Mm-hmm. And, like, why they, why I think they saw a downfall. And, like, one of the points that I made was, like, we as the fandom, like, a part of this is our fault. Like- Yes ... most people on reality TV, they are playing to the audience. Like, that's a big reason why I'm so indifferent on Lindsay because I feel like Lindsay does a lot of shit because she knows that the audience are gonna be like, "Yes." Yeah. "Mother Hubbard," right? Like, I can, I can see, and I'm not saying, like, I have, like, a special power, I'm, like, so much smarter than other people, but, like- I think you are I've thank you. So. But I've, like, I've been watching reality TV for so long, and then, like, working in the industry, like, you can almost see when somebody on TV is, like, doing something because they want the re- the audience to receive it and perceive it in a certain way. Yes. So it's, like, the fandom, like, we are actually shaping these shows in real time, and that's the thing that I hate, right? Yes. Because most people who watch reality TV are not casting directors, directors. They are not producers. And so, like, if you do something and, like, a big part of the audience hates it, and it's, but it's authentic, authentic to you, but then you come back and you don't do that thing anymore because the audience hates it, now you're allowing them to shape who you are as a person. Yes. They should never be able to do that because like I said- No ... we as audiences are fickle. Yeah. So we might hate that thing that you did in season one, and then if you come back in season two and you still do that thing, we might live for it for- Yeah ... in season two, right? Yeah. So it's like, stop, they, they have to stop letting us as the audience dictate, like, how they act on these shows because- Yeah they're never gonna, they're never gonna show their, their true selves if they're allowing us to tell them what it should look like. I'm almost like, can they just, like, uh, ban- Bravo celebrities from, uh, seeing the internet. Like, if, if you're caught seeing the internet, your contract is, uh, null and void. Um, because you can't- It's a double-edged sword. Yeah. Because also- It is a double-edged sword ... sorry, go ahead. Oh, no, no. I was just gonna say it's a double-edged sword because also without fan discourse, a lot of these shows- Yes ... wouldn't be as popular- Yep ... as they are, so. That's exactly what I was gonna say. And it's also like- Part of what I love about watching the show, and I've said this a bunch, especially throughout the series, is engaging with other people about the show. That's, like, something that I really enjoy. Yeah. But at the end of the day I don't wanna be, like... Uh, I mean, he- h- a great example in my opinion, two great examples. Uh, Scheana Shay, who I am notoriously... I, I like Lindsay. I'm saying Lindsay's, like, the, the least of the ones I hate- Right ... on that show. I could g- leave or take Lindsay. Yeah. Uh, I'll never leave Scheana Shay. Yeah, Scheana Shay hives, stand up. That's me, girl. Jasmine, y'all Jasmine tags me anytime anyone's like, "How do you feel about Scheana Shay?" Jasmine's like, "It's your time, girl. Come on." "You've been called to the pulpit." You've been summoned. Yes. Um, but yeah, I think that it, it's hard because I wanna interact, but then of course I have this platform that I'm very inconsistent with, um, that I can also talk about these shows. Which I do think that a lot of the discussions around something sensitive and complicated, um, what's happening on Summer House, particularly as it pertains to Sierra, uh, is better suited for long form talking- Yeah ... conversational than it- Yeah ... is for, like, posts on Threads that get people's attention that don't even know what a Summer House is. Right. And then for some reason they still respond. It's crazy. Um, but in that, in that same vein, my, my last thing I wanted to ask you about is as a content creator yourself, have... What has your experience been specifically covering this season, um, because you are so objective, and you do have- Mm ... such a really, and I really mean this, like, such a valuable viewpoint- Mm having worked in podcast production- Mm ... having been, like, again, in the rooms with the people that make the shows, like Carlos King. Like, you were the EP for, was it for, uh, uh- Reality With The King. Yeah. Mm-hmm. That's like, I know you, I know y- you, you must get tidbits of things. Yeah. And I only say that to say that, like, not that you're g- gonna, like, spill all your secrets, but you have- Right an informed perspective. Mm-hmm. Um, and, and so I'm wondering with how heated this, this, this, this course about Summer House this season has been when it never has been like this- Right ... for this show, what has that been like for you as a content creator? Um, it's been interesting because- I have put my opinions out there, and I think one of the most frustrating things about being a content creator or, and YouTuber, um, podcaster, you know, whatever you are when you, when you are, are, um, publicly commenting on things- Yeah um, is having people, like, misunderstand you almost, right? Yeah. And it's just uh, I could say this thing about, um, Sierra and Wes and how their relationship was so short-lived to me that I don't understand the disappointment that Sierra has towards Wes, 'cause I'm like, y'all were apart longer than you were together. Mm-hmm. And when you were together it was not serious, and, and, and, and he had this whole thing where he went publicly to a huge publication and talked about how you guys were not each other's person, right? Yeah. And so it's like you, you go back and you, you ignore him for a season, and then the next season we kinda see you start to forgive him and go back into his life, so much so that you are saying, "He is my person," after he's publicly said you guys are not, right? Yeah. So it's like- I've said this in so many words, like, there is no reason. Like, Sierra to me being upset about Wes and then by proxy Amanda, that does not really compute to me- Right ... 'cause she shouldn't be. And then having people take that opinion so personally. Mm-hmm. And it's like now it's an attack on Sierra, and then now it's like the added thing of like, you're a Black woman, you must hate Black women or, like, you, you have a lot of... Like, somebody under one of Carlos' clips that he posted said I was self-hating, like I must hate myself as, like- Ugh ... a Black woman because I'm critiquing another Black woman. And I'm like, "I don't think you guys have met me before." Right. I don't give a fuck if you're a Black, orange, white, yellow, pink. Right. I don't care what color you are, if I have an opinion on you, whether that opinion is good or bad, that's what I'm going to say. Right. Like, none of... You know what I'm saying? Like, it do- that does not make me have, uh... You're not automatically good to me because we share an identity, right? Right. And I'm not, not automatically... You're not off limits because we share an identity- Right ... with the job that I do. Um, and then even with me critiquing Sierra, that doesn't mean that I don't feel empathy for her. Right. Just, like, as much as I can look at the situation and be like, "I don't understand it," I can also look at it and be like, "The reason I don't understand it is because I don't have Sierra's heart and her feelings." Yeah. And so then I can be like, "Okay, she did really like this guy for reasons I don't understand, but she did like him." Yeah. Yeah. She did look at Amanda as a friend, and she was a really good friend to Amanda as evidenced by the show. So then I'm like, I could, I can totally understand this. Right. I don't get it- Right but I can understand it. But it's like you can't put all of that in one thread. Yeah. Um, and then it's like even when I put it into, uh, an entire YouTube video, most people are not taking the time out to, like, go and watch your entire YouTube videos, especially if they see a clip on- online, and if that clip is inflammatory, they don't wanna go back and, like, understand the context of, like, why you said the thing. Yes. And so they're just mad at this, like, you know, 30-second clip. Yeah. And so, like, my experience with Summer House particularly this season- has been probably more controversial. Yeah. Um, and I think I've received much more criticism on my opinion than I have in the past for any other show. Yeah. Um, and it's, it's mostly because Ciara is the golden child of Summer House right now, and you cannot say anything negatively about her. Mm-hmm. And I have said stuff that goes against that. Mm-hmm. I have said things, you know, even when I'm like, "Yeah, Amanda and West are shitty, but also this thing," it doesn't matter that I also said West and Amanda are shitty. No. It's like if I say anything against Ciara I must be pro-West or pro-Amanda. Yes. And I'm like, I'm not pro anybody in this situation. No. Like- All these people are boring. They're all... Right, and then that's the, that's the other thing, right? It's like people are like, "Give Ciara her own show," and I'm like, guys. Guys. Let's be so fucking for real about this. Ciara is not a great reality TV star. Like- Thank you, Jesus ... she is fun. Right? Like, if, if there was a, um, a, a, a show where people were needing to do, like, unique costumes or something like that, I could totally see that for her. Yes. Yes. But, like, to give her her own show when, like, just a few seasons ago you guys were talking about how boring her and the bedbugs were. Yeah. It's like now all of a sudden this scandal happens and she is NeNe Leakes. Like, we gotta be for real about that. We really do. Um, I actually have, uh, famously, and by famously I mean, like, in a voice message to you and one thread that I posted. Um, I have been saying that there are a few different Bravo stars that I would like to pluck out of their, um, respective franchises and put into, like, new ideas for shows. Um, one is Brittany Cartwright, who I would still... Which she already, she did it without my permission, which is fine, but, um, I wanted to have her do, like, a, a Brittany Cartwright Getting My Sporkle Back. And, like, it's, like, a combination of, like, Khloe Kardashian's, like, Revenge Body, but it's, like, what not to wear. Yeah. But it's also, like, a little bit of a dating show. Like, her getting back, uh, on her feet. Uh, and they, uh, you know, she just ran away and did whatever she wanted to do, so fine. Um, another idea that I had for Sierra was for Bravo to, like, reboot or reinvent the, like, Fashion Police, um, E!'s Fashion Police, and have Sierra, um... And I don't think you have to, like, agree with her fashion choices. Right. I just think she would be a good fit for a show like that. Yeah. Um- She's a model. She's a model. Yeah. Um, Sierra Venita from Southern Charm would be- Yeah ... really great. Venita's, I find her very, um, I don't, uh, I don't love how she, how she interacts with, with her friends on the show, but, uh, she's a fascinating person. She's super shady too, which is why I think she'd make- ... a great housewife. Um, but, like, her, Braunwyn from Salt Lake City. Yeah. Um, just 'cause I need her. I don't like Braunwyn, so I just, I want her to be somewhere else. Um, I'm, I'm also, like, not really a huge fan of Braunwyn. Not in the way, like, the girls live for Braunwyn and I'm like- I live for her I watched, watched it and I'm like, "I don't get it." And I'm like, also the fashion, while she, like, wears these pieces, I feel like, I feel she seems like a tryhard to me. She is. She's- She's, like, inauthentic. She's, she's like, yeah, yeah. She seems like tryhard. But for a show like Fashion Police, 100% I would allow it. That would make sense. Yeah. And then the other idea that I had, my final one, I'm pitching these to you. I- if, if Sierra did do a home renovation show, it could be with her and her mom. Mm-hmm. And it could be called Run of the Millers. Run of the Millers. Wait, that's so good actually. Thank you so much. That's so good. I'm full of ideas. I, no, I love that. Do you remember that season when, uh, of Real Housewives of Atlanta, Kenya, they all went to Todd's, Kandi's ex-husband. They went to his condo in New Jersey. Yes, Jesus. And yeah, and Kenya was like, "Oh, he should do this. He should do that." And Kenya was like, "I love home renovations." I came up with an idea called Moore Renovations, like M-O-O-R-E, Moore Renovations. Ugh. Like, a home improvement show that Kenya Moore could host. She- So, like, yeah. Definitely. You know? Yeah. 'Cause look what she did with Moore Manor. Like, it was- Beautiful ... you know? And it looks- Yeah ... great now. So, yes, Run of the Millers- Yeah is actually so clever. I love, I, listen, I live for a good title, bitch. Like, I love- Me too ... a good title. Mm-hmm. Run of the Millers, I like that. Um, I was gonna say Bravo Calls, but actually HGTV. No, I was thinking HGTV too. Like- Yeah ... I don't think I, I agree. Sorry. You know, sue me, I don't think Sierra's a great reality star. That doesn't mean she shouldn't be on a reality show. I just don't think that she fits for the docu-soap- Right ... style. Which me and, uh, uh, Noor were talking about last night, like, I feel the same way about KJ. I think that the conversation around KJ has been weird. Yeah. Um- So weird ... either people are, like, infantilizing him, or they're, like, they're, like, being unrealistic about- what to expect from him considering what he shared with us. Yes. And I was, like, talking to Nora last night. I was like, "I don't think that KJ should be on a docu-soap." That doesn't mean he shouldn't be on reality TV, but maybe he should host, like, a Jackass type thing, him and his, you know, skateboard friends in New York City or something. Oh, right, with the skateboard thing. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Or, or like something like that. Uh, she had a good idea. I can't remember what it was. Go listen to her episode. She dropped it today, um, for Nora's Idea. Yeah. But like, you know, there's, there's... I, I, I think people also take it so personally when we're like, "This person isn't good on the show." It doesn't mean that they're not good, they could never fit in on reality TV. Correct. It just means that, like, maybe there needs to be some, like, more ideas thrown out there, and it doesn't mean that Bravo's gonna take them. I mean, obviously th- this requires money, and like- Sure ... lots of time and effort. But I don't know. I, I, I try to, I try to approach my fandom with Uh, c- come to it with an idea for improvement, not- Sure ... just a complaint, you know what I mean? Yeah. No, no, no, I, I agree with you. And I think another, you know, to the point that we were just talking about, um, there's a reason why these shows are ensemble casts. Yeah. You know what I'm saying? It's like you could be good in a group of people. Yep. Um, and then that, that's, that's why oftentimes when we see p- some people get spinoffs, the spinoffs just don't work, 'cause this person is dynamic in the group that they're with. That's why casting for these shows is so important. Yes. Because you have to cast around a bunch of different personalities, and then you have to cast people who are gonna bring out the best of those personalities. Yes. So it's, it's not an easy thing. And so when we all, and I say we because I have been guilty of this in the past. Mm. When we're sitting here and we're like, "Fire that person," or such and such shouldn't come back- Oh, yeah or they should do X, Y, and Z on that show, it's like, well, there's an art to casting a really good ensemble show. I know. Mm-hmm. And like being a good reality star in an ensemble does not automatically mean you would be really good on a spinoff. Like, I've been seeing, I made a video about this, the, the call for KJ, Mia, and Sierra to have a spinoff show, and I'm like, "That would not, you guys would not like that." No, no. You guys wouldn't like that. Like- No ... the novelty of it would be, you know, you would like the novelty of it at first. Yeah. But then I just don't, I don't think it would have legs. I think Mia is a great addition- Ugh ... to Summer House. She's so great. She's so great. So good on- Yes ... Summer House, right? Correct. Yeah. E, on Summer House. Yes. I didn't watch... I know she had a real estate, she was on a real estate show before. Okay. It was called, like, Selling the Hamptons. Oh, she- oh my gosh. Um, I didn't watch it 'cause I don't like reality sh- or real estate. What? You saw it? Wait a minute. I feel like I... Was it on Hulu, or did it, is it on Hulu to, like, stream? I don't think it's on Bravo. I think I may have watched an episode of that. I don't remember her though, but I think I may have watched an episode of that Like, she's, she's just so... I said this on, on Threads too, she's such a star. She's so- Yeah ... energetic. She knows how to, like, she just knows h- how to work it. Yeah. And- Very charming. Extremely charming ... now check this out. If Run of the Millers gets picked up, KJ comes down for an episode to, like, p- you know, I don't know, Mia comes in with her real estate expertise for an episode, like- Yeah ... stuff like that. That could be a good way for Sierra to, um, h- host a, another opportunity for her friends. Right. And we could see these friends in this, in a different light. Um, again, y- you just gotta think outside of the box instead of spending all day telling me that I'm a misogynist because I don't think it's that big of a damn deal. Um, or that I think that maybe it's super weird that Sierra and Mija, or is it Meja, are, uh, meeting up because I think that's, like, some, uh, trifling shit Personally- I know it. Yeah. I, I thought that was so weird. But I had to check myself- So cringey ... 'cause I was like, "This is so lame," and then I, I checked myself in real time on Reality With Kinga 'cause I was like, "Oh, I think it's lame," but then I remember I've done that. I've done it too. And like- Oh, yeah ... yeah, like I've done, like you- Mm-hmm you meet with the other girl and you guys compare notes and all of that. And I, like even famously, one of my really good girlfriends, we met because we like dated the same guy a long time ago. And like we're so cool, and that guy is nowhere in our lives at all. Yeah. So like it was cringey, and then I was like, "Oh, I, I have been guilty of this." And that, that's the other thing with reality TV is like it does make me reflect a lot on just like what I'm watching and the lens that I'm viewing it through because obviously, like I'm in my late 30s watching somebody like Sierra, who I think just turned 30. Yeah. A lot of the stuff she does, or most of these people on the cast, outside of Kyle, Lindsay, and Carl, everybody is like pretty much younger than me. Yeah. Um, watching them through the lens that, o- of like where I am now in life, it's so easy for me to judge them harshly. Yes, yes. But then once I sit back and I'm like, "Okay, was I kind of in the same place, or was I doing like similarly cringey things- Yes ... when I was 30 or when I was like in my late 20s?" Yes, I was. Yes. And so it makes me step back, but it has been interesting to like, to, to play or, or have these different opinions and feelings with, um, public discourse, like putting- Mm-hmm ... stuff on Threads or on YouTube because it's also like once you have an opinion, you almost can't change it. Yeah. 'Cause like I can't, you can't... You critique Sierra one day, and then the other day, like you have empathy for her, and then there's somebody inevitably who's gonna call you out and be like, "I, I thought you didn't like her," and now I have to correct you and be like, "I literally never said I didn't like her." Yeah. Indifference does not equal dislike. You perceive that. Yeah. Yes, yes. Like you just assume that I don't like her because I'm being critical of this one thing that she did, but like I don't even know these people enough to have like strong feelings of hatred towards them. I could never hate somebody. No. I, I think where I think the things, and I, I've brought this up before, but like reality television in its inception was s- supposed to be a reflection of culture at the time and society at the time. Yeah. Where I think things are getting a little topsy-turvy now is we as the audience are thinking that we are supposed to, that we are supposed to i- reflect it almost. Like it should be a reflection of us rather than like it- Oh ... it is a reflection of the culture. Yeah. W- which isn't, that doesn't, that's not what... This is entertainment. This isn't like a, like an actual... It's not a personal documentary that's following you around, okay? Right. And I also think that to, to your point about thinking back and being like, "Okay, I've, I've done some crazy shit in my 20s," same. Um, but I sometimes feel like maybe enough people haven't because- I'm like, some of the ways that these people act like they've never, not- Forget they've never been the w- other woman or they've never been the woman to, like, get messy with someone they shouldn't have. Th- th- they're, they'll go as far as to say, "I would never have a friend like Amanda." And I'm like, "Okay, well when your best friend fucks up 'cause she's human, what are, are you really, you dump her in the name of, like, what? A man?" Uh, like bec- Like, that's not how it works, and these people are coworkers also. Yeah. That adds a dynamic that you don't have. Hello? Absolutely. And, like, we're all capable of doing very shitty things. We're all capable of doing something that, like, in our minds it doesn't feel shitty, but to other people, right, other people will perceive it as wrong. Yeah. And so it's like I think audiences also, like, fail to be... Like, a lot of, I think a lot of the fandom just isn't real with themselves. Correct. Like, they hold these people... You know what I'm saying? Like, they have these, these, um- They hold these people to these, like, high standards that are impossible for any human being to meet, themselves included. And then what they wanna do on the internet is, is posture- Yeah ... as if they are these beings of, like, moral righteousness. Yes. And it's like, I would never have a friend like Amanda. Like, if my sister came to me right now and was like, "Uh, I'm dating this guy, but, like, he used to date my friend," what am I supposed to do, diss on my sister? You're my sister. Throw her out. At the end of the day. All right, but- Say, "Go to Italy, bitch." Right. I, I, I, I mean, I will tell... I will talk to you about it being wrong and, and kind of, you know, with that. But it's like, when people who are close to you do shitty things, most people are able to find it in themselves to be like, "Okay, I recognize this as a bad thing. I'll talk to you about it." But if we're keeping it real, most of the times people aren't even, like, holding people in their lives accountable the way they do these reality stars, 'cause they don't have the balls to do it in real life. Right. It is easier to do it on Threads and- It is ... on TikTok and Instagram. Yes. But it's like, we're all capable- Yes ... of doing really messed up stuff, and like... And, and that, that might be why the West here and Amanda thing, I'm like, it's a shitty thing, but I'm like, it's not the fucking end of the world. No. Like, it is not the end of the world. When I was reflecting on it, I was like, I actually recently was in a circumstance, uh, where I was, like... Essentially I was like the KJ. I was unaffected personally, but, like, uh, someone I really loved hurt someone else that I really loved over a guy. The difference though, and I, and I actually thought about it. I was like, I actually... 'Cause I was kinda like, "KJ, why are you... If, if, if West is your best friend from childhood, why are you, like, throwing him out like that? Like, I don't, I don't understand that." Right. But then I thought about it. I was like, actually, I did do that. I was so pissed at the one friend who slept with the guy, and, uh, because it hurt me on behalf of my other really close friend. The difference was he actually cheated on the friend one with friend two. So, like- Got it ... they were in a relationship. Right, yeah. Uh, that's where I'm kinda like, we gotta look at the facts. Like- I don't know. I don't know if it's 'cause Sierra still feels, like, attached to him that w- we are... But then the fans aren't picking up on that because I, for the first few weeks everyone was like, "It's not that she still has feelings for him, it's the friendship betrayal." And I was like, "I think it's, I think it's 'cause she still has feelings for him- It's a- ... or else there wouldn't be a friendship betrayal." Thank you so much. It's 100% the fact that she still has feelings for this guy. Like- Yes ... we, we saw her kissing him, um, in like the last few episodes of- Mm-hmm ... season 10. Mm-hmm. He, he actually put her on blast in this aftermath episode when he was saying that they were cool again, they made... They, like, kissed maybe twice. Mm-hmm. And he was actively trying to create a boundary because he knew he didn't want anything other than friendship with her. Right. So she was, like, asking for his address. He said no. Mm-hmm. She, like, invited him. It was, like, a birthday thing. I don't know if it was her birthday, his birthday, something. He decided not to go or something like that. So he's actively telling, like, these instances where he was drawing the boundary because he knew that he didn't want anything more than a friendship with her. Mm-hmm. And I think that's the thing. That's the biggest thing with Sierra is the fact that Wes did not choose her in a romantic way. Yeah. And I think her ego is bruised about that and she's hurt about that. And we've seen Sierra, for lack of a better word, for lack of a better term, be possessive over men- Be possessive over men that she is not in a relationship with. Yeah. She did the same thing with Austin. Ugh, that was tough. Like, she was, she was ready to go to war with Lindsay and, uh, Danielle. She literally threw glass- Did she? ... a glass of wine at Danielle. Yeah, like it's like- S- Sierra wants to have... If she dates someone, then that person is just automatically off limits, I guess indefinitely. Yeah. And I just feel like, and a- again, this is me, like, kind of being thir- 37 years old- Yeah. ... also married too, so I don't wanna act like it's, it's not a big deal. But it's like, if you date someone and for one, if it's not that serious- Yeah ... and then some time goes by, I don't think they should... I d- I think people should have free rein. Like, they should be- Mm, yeah ... open. Like, you know what I'm saying? It's like you can't claim ownership over a man that you dated for four or five months- Yeah ... two or three years ago, sweetie. Like... Even if, even if he's making you feel some type of way. Right. Even if you are, even if you are feeling some type of way, it's just, like, objectively you do have to take a little bit of responsibility for your feelings. Yeah. And, uh, you'll be better for it. Yeah. It looks- You'll be better for it ... she is better for it. Like, she's, she literally is. She's having her Ariana moment. Yes. She's hosting After Sun. Like, she just won an award at the, an award at the Culture Awards. Yeah. Like, she is do- she's gonna be just fine. That's what I'm saying, right? Back to our- Yeah ... earlier point, everyone involved is going to be okay. They'll be fine. They really will. I mean, I hope that they will. I mean- Yeah ... yeah. I, I just- Professionally, I should say they will. Yeah, professionally, 100%. Yeah. They're, they're, like, everyone, everyone has the bag that they want. Yeah. Um, Amanda might have to actually work for it this time, but, like- that's on her. If she doesn't wanna work for it, that's not anybody else's fault, you know? She can, she can still spin this if she really wants to, I think. I think that's what we should all keep in mind as fans. Yes. They're gonna be okay. And isn't Amanda a trust fund baby? She is, yes. She will, she never has to work. Allegedly, but yes. Yeah. Yeah. She just wants to be famous. Yeah. And, like, she's i- you know, infamous now, but, like- Yeah ... she is, she has money. If you have a trust fund the actual, the bag that you get from reality TV, that's not the thing that you're, like, most worried about, like- Mm-hmm ... for somebody like her. She's worried about, like, having fans and having an audience. She still has, like, a million followers on Instagram, so she's still gonna have what she wants at the end of the day, too, which is an audience. Yeah, and no amount of, like, hating her is gonna change that. Yeah. Uh, 'cause she has the resources to make it so should she ever want to, to dive... Maybe she'll have a, she, maybe she'll have a home renovation show. Uh, uh, oh, God. Very difficult to come up with a name. I'll think of one. Follow me on Threads. Um, okay. Jasmine, thank you so much for coming on finally. I know I've been, like, miserable to schedule with. That is kind of my thing. But, um- No, you're fine. You're fine ... I really appreciate you coming on. Can you please let everybody know where to find you? Yeah, so first of all, this was so fun. Um- Yay ... obviously we talk often offline, but- Yes ... it's really fun to be on your platform and, um, talk with some structure. Yeah. Yeah. So thank you for inviting me on. This was great. And yeah, you guys can all find me. I'm @JHenleyBrown on every platform. Mm-hmm. Um, Threads, I'm very active on, TikTok, Instagram, but YouTube is my baby. Yes. So if you want to see any of the series that I have or engage with some of my long-form content, it's on YouTube. So yeah, @JHenleyBrown everywhere. And guys, you must go see some of her, her YouTube, especially you've made two videos that are kind of not specifically about Summer House, uh, but are in kind of response to Summer House. One was the, uh, segregation of reality television video- Yes ... which I've watched actually three times. I love it. Oh, thank you. Um, and the one that you released, uh, either right before or right after that, I don't know why I'm blanking on the name 'cause I've also watched that one twice. Do you remember what it was about? Also, it was a, it was a, it was a Summer House one. Oh, is it the one, we need to say the quiet part out loud about Sierra and Wes? Yes, yes. Yes. Yes. Yeah, those were- That one ... yeah, those were really fun to do. Thank you for watching though. Yeah. You know girl, I will. Um, all right. Well guys, thank you. Thank you for coming to the show and you know where to follow me at, Who TF Knows Emily Rose on all platforms, and I will talk to you guys later. Bye bye.  Hello, hello, hello. This is Who the Fuck Knows? with Emily Rose. I'm Emily Rose with a part two installment of We Need to Talk About the Fandom: Summer House. With me today, I'm so excited, you guys, I am so happy that she's here. She is a talk show host, content creator, sit-down comedian for Sharp Commentary. She is a, she's an executive producer who's worked for a bunch of any big podcasting audio network. She's done it. She's a friend. She's Atlanta-based, and now she's a wife. Please welcome Jasmine Henley Brown. How are you? Hello, friend. I'm so happy to be here, and thank you for that- Yes ... stunning introduction. I love that. Thank you, 'cause you wrote it. Yeah. We're gonna keep it real, okay? Yeah, look. But that's- that's what my website is for, okay? Like, that's exactly, that is how you get to know me, so. And- and- and as you say that, if you would like to know more, go to jhenleybrown.com- ... and you will... Because there's some stuff I didn't even get to, okay? Oh my God. Uh, Jasmine, how are you feeling? How are you doing? You know, I'm- I'm having a little bit of a sinus issue. Mm-hmm. But other than that, um, I can say that I am great. And yeah, you mentioned it, newlywed. Just got married at the beginning of this month, so- Ooh ... super excited about that. And I love, I think this is the third podcast that I've been on that, like, they've put that in my introduction. And I'm like, that's so sweet to me that you guys are- ... like, acknowledging this beautiful time in my life. So yeah. I'm actually really good outside from, you know, my nose being very runny but stuffy at the same time. So. Yes. Well, I have to say, I did leave wife not only 'cause I'm saving the best for last, but also because you are so much more than that. You are- Absolutely ... you have been in the, this content creation space in- in the rooms, as, uh, Angela and- and Phaedra would say. Um, you have been in this space for so long. Yeah. Um, in many different positions. Mm-hmm. And you kind of have a really important and interesting lens through which you view the reality shows that we cover. And- Thank you ... um, I know you've been recapping, uh, lots of things, but particularly Summer House on Carlos King's podcast with- Yeah ... um, Blue- Mm-hmm ... who is also, Blue is also on the, uh, Real Housewives of Atlanta panel that Carlos does every Monday that you guested on as well. Mm-hmm. And I- You and I have talked offline. Listen, there's not a lot of us. It's funny, I had a, I did a, a podcast last night, uh, for The Reality Is Podcast, and she was saying, she lives in New Jersey, she was like, "There's really not a lot in Atlanta." And I was like, "Thank you. We feel the same way." Yeah. Yeah. Um, but yeah. Unfortunately. You're Atlanta, you're living out here and, and- Mm-hmm you've really, like, made an effort to try and get some stuff going. Um, it seems like New York gets a lot and LA gets a lot, and Atlanta gets nothing. Yeah. Which is so weird 'cause it's Atlanta, I mean, I would say we're in, like, third place when it comes to kind of, like, cities with a lot happening in terms of, like, media and entertainment. Like, a lot of stuff is filmed here. Yeah. A lot of really iconic reality shows have happened here in Atlanta, and so it seems like we should get more. But you know, LA and New York City, they, they're old school, like, entertainment juggernauts- Yeah ... and hubs, and so it's like in order for Atlanta to be seen in that same light, I think it's just gonna take us a lot longer honestly. But they do- Yeah ... some stuff here but not, not nearly enough. Not nearly enough. Well, I think that we're, we obviously, this should be a shock to nobody, we have a huge music scene. Yeah. We have a huge sports scene. Sports media is really big here. Mm-hmm. Um, and then a lot of even for the scripted things that go on here, the shows- Yeah movies, whatever, um, a lot of it's outsourced. Like the casting directors for a lot, like Truly Media, some of these- Yeah ... um, reality shows, they, they don't, they, they're not based here in Atlanta. They're based- Right ... elsewhere, a lot of times- Mm-hmm ... in LA. Um, and so it is. It's, it's interesting to be so fascinated with this space, with the reality television space, and kind of feel like we should be connected to it, but there just hasn't been a bridge. And- Yeah ... I know that you are, I know you're passionate about that and I know you wanna get some bridges built. I would hope so. You know? Like, we, we will see what, what can be done here. I feel like there's e- there's certainly enough content creators. I think at this point, I, maybe we need to form a coalition- Yeah and, uh, really start talking to the higher-ups at these networks and being like, "Hey," like, "we petition to have the next premiere of whatever here." Mm-hmm. Because they fly everybody out to LA. They fly 'em- Mm ... out to New York. They can fly 'em to Atlanta. They really can. The cost will probably be about the same. Travel time will probably be about the same, so. Yep. Yeah. I agree. I agree. Well, Jasmine, I've brought you here today for a topic- that has had hour, I know, I know just between me and you probably, like, hours worth of voice memos. Voice messages, yeah. And has had the internet, particularly Threads, 'cause that's what I'm primarily on, uh, on fire, and that's Summer House. Got it. And Summer House discourse, particularly, particularly, excuse me, around this season, um, I kinda wanna hear what your journey with Summer House is and, and where you've, when you started watching. Are you, like, a day one watcher? Mm-hmm. And have you kind of, have you engaged before this season in the, the discourse with the fans? Yeah, so I am a day one Summer House viewer. Like, I was literally watching Vanderpump Rules the, on the episode that they did the backdoor pilot into Summer House when- Mm-hmm ... Stassi and, uh, was it Kristen and Katie? Yeah. When they flew to the Hamptons to- And Scheana ... and Scheana, yep, to meet with the Werkus twins, and Kyle called S- Stassi Steve Jobs because she had a turtleneck swimsuit on- So goofy in the hot, hot tub. So yeah. I have been, you know, into Summer House since then. There were a couple of seasons that I ended up taking off, um, but then I ended up going back and watching them. Until this year, the only season of Summer House that I hadn't seen was the season that Kyle and Amanda got married. Okay. But then I recently went back to watch that one as well, and I've been watching it so long I even got my husband into watching it a couple- Nice ... of seasons ago. He watched probably, like, two seasons of Summer House at this point, so he knows some of the players. Um, when- Earlier this year when Kyle and Amanda announced their separation, I was like, "Babe, Amanda, not fun. Her and Kyle are- ... are separating." He was like, "Oh my gosh," because, like, he had watched them for a few seasons. Right. So yeah. I've, I've been into Summer House. I will say I've never talked about it as much until this season, um, and that is, you know, one, thanks to Threads, and then two, obviously this huge, like, scandal- Yeah uh, happened, if you will. But I will talk about it in passing. I think I've made some videos about it. I watched the spinoff of, um, Summer House: Martha's Vineyard. Mm-hmm. I made some videos about that on my YouTube. So I've been in the Summer House universe for a while. I'm so sorry my nose is off. It's okay. Just gave a little bit. Um, yeah, so I've, I've been, been in the world for a minute. Nice. I think, yeah, so have you... And, and you've also on your channels and in your career, you've done commentary about a whole bunch of different types of shows. Yeah. And I'm curious if you've- If you, have you, have you engaged in discourse about any of the other Bravo shows that you've covered in the past? Like, is this your first time kind of like really leaning into it? Or do you have something to compare it to? No. I mean, I've done, excuse me, when Twitter was like really big for like live tweeting and stuff, I used to do it a lot. Okay. So I mean, over the course of, I mean, how long have you... Twitter is what? Since 2010, I think was- Yeah ... when I was on Twitter at first. Yeah. And so whenever live tweeting was like super popular, I would do it a lot over there. Mm-hmm. Um, it's never, like for me, Summer House, until this season, there has never been a lot for me to like break down. So I've never been involved in like super like, um, detailed discourse around Summer House until this season. But yeah, like the Real Housewives of Atlanta ha- I've always been heavily involved in discussions around that. That's my favorite like Real Housewife city. Mm-hmm. It's the one city that I've never missed a season of. Even if I don't finish the season- You start it ... I've never not started- Yeah. ... one of their seasons. Um, what, what else? Why am I draw- oh, Vanderpump Rules, obviously. Right. Love Vanderpump Rules. Um- Why am I drawing a blank? From like our whole time Did you talk about, uh, Salt Lake City at all? No, I did not talk about Salt Lake City. Okay. I actually like, uh, I started watching Salt Lake City in the first season. I didn't like it. Mm-hmm. And so I stopped watching it, and then, um, was it like late last year I started to get into Salt Lake City- Mm-hmm ... and I started with the Monica Garcia season. Oh. You know, season four. Such a good season. Girl. Obsessed. I watched it 'cause I, 'cause you know, I've been hearing all the girls say like, Salt Lake City is that one, and I'm like, I really didn't f- I didn't get that when I watched- Yeah the first season. I started watching season four and I was like, oh, I know why I didn't like it the first season. I didn't like Jen Shah. Yeah. That's why. That's... I just couldn't get into it, right? Yeah. So season four she was not on there, and Monica Garcia was on there. Oof. And I remember watching that whole season being like, Monica Garcia is batshit crazy. Like- Yeah ... something is up with this girl. Oh, yeah. Um, and then- Oh, yeah ... and then she, uh, she recently followed me on Instagram and I started feeling bad. It's okay. She's in on the joke I think. Exactly, and that... But that's- ... that's exactly what made me like follow her back, 'cause I was like, oh, she, she knows exactly like how people feel- Yes about her. Um, yeah, so I started watching that season, and then this last season that they had, I haven't finished it, but I watched like the fourth and fifth season, and I think season six is the one that they just finished, right? Yes, yes. I think so. Yeah, I haven't finished that season yet. But yeah, so I wouldn't say I'm a diehard Salt Lake City fan, but I do recognize that it's a really good show. It is, and I... The Jen Shah, not liking it because of Jen Shah is, um, completely understandable. Uh, and it was a sentiment shared amongst a lot of fans, so you're, you're totally in the majority I think there. Um, speaking of which, being in the majority, I think, uh, something that you've been saying, I feel like you say it every episode that you've recapped Summer House with Carlos King thus far, you know, it's so interesting how we can all watch the same show and have totally different perspectives, right? Yeah. Summer House, and you tell me if you, if you, uh, agree with this, I feel like Summer House, though- This is just my honest opinion, uh, isn't, isn't that great. I think it's entertaining. I don't think it's, like, the best show on Bravo. Right. And somehow the show will ha- has, has, like, two camps of people, and it really feels like I'm watching a different show than what a lot of the most popular discourse, uh, kind of dictates. Do you feel that? Oh, gosh, so much. Like, so much to the point where I'm like, I had to go within and ask myself, like, "Are you just trying to be contrarian?" Yeah. It's just like, no, right? But I think from, you know, all of the, um, multiple voice memos that you and I have sent back and forth- ... to each other, I think there is a group. Unfortunately, it is a minority group of us- Mm-hmm ... who can watch and engage with reality TV from, like, um, a very objective POV. Yeah. I think a lot of people watch this, and this is not, um, a knock on people, but a lot of people have a very, like, uh, binary way of viewing most things in life. Yeah. So they need, like, a hero and a villain. Yeah. So someone has to be good, and anybody that opposes that thing that they think is good, it just automatically makes them bad versus, like, I... You and I have talked about this. We're watching Summer House. A lot of people on this cast could be considered shitty at some point. Like, they all- Mm-hmm ... have had really good moments. They all have had really bad moments. But, um, within the larger fandoms, and this is happening across, like, a lot of shows, Love Island- Oh, yeah ... Secret Lives of Mormon Wives. Mm-hmm. You know, like, any reality TV show with a large fandom, um, people will choose their favorite, and it's like once they choose a favorite, you cannot go against that. That- Right ... anybody that opposes that, you are persona non grata, right? Yeah. And so, you know, for me, I just don't, I don't stand anybody on reality TV. There are people that I like a lot, and particularly in the work that I do, I meet a lot of these people and, like, interact with them. And so obviously when you meet people in real life and you're like, "You're nothing like what they portray you as on TV," and you- Right you kinda, you know, you, you start to have a different opinion about them. So that does make me, like, a little more, I guess, um, or a little less objective. Mm-hmm. No, actually, less objective is not true 'cause if they're on my screen, if you're on my screen, the only thing you owe me is entertainment, and I get to critique that entertainment- Right in whichever way I see fit. But it does make me... For instance, Candiace Dillard Bassett. Mm. I've met Candiace a couple of times went to her, one of her parties at her house- Mm ... a couple years ago, right? So when I had to critique her on The Traitors, it was like, damn, I have to critique what they're showing me on TV even though I know her to be something else, right? Yeah. So that makes it a little more challenging, but I don't think it takes it away, right? So I think, you know, um- I forgot what your initial question was, 'cause I always ramble and then I forget. No, no, no, no. Okay. I'm so engaged with what you're saying, I don't know and I don't care. I don't know. Well, I will say this, it's interesting, I'm actually coming into this recording, uh, a little, um... Oh, God, I don't wanna sound like chewy or whatever, but like a little shook. Um, and I don't wanna give any details, um, but a close friend of mine, a longtime close friend of mine, uh, has become a public figure in s- Mm ... some regard in the past several months. And something recently happened with them that is, uh, has caused discourse about them on Reddit, and I just found out about it. Oh. And I'm, like, reading it, and I'm reading, there's, like, multiple threads, and I'm like, it's nothing like, it's not, like, anything, like, sexual, nothing like that. Right. Um, so I'm not, like... I just wanna put that out there. Um, but, like, reading people talk about someone that you know, and, like, especially for me, like, I know this person very, very, very well, um, know their family, like, seriously, um, it is like, it kind of, only, like- affirms for me that, that we have to talk about these people like they're people. Yeah. And I think that, and, and that doesn't, and, and that doesn't mean, like, you have to always be nice about everything that you say. Mm-hmm. But I think that what Summer House fans are struggling with is they recognize the humanity in themselves a- and then somehow project it onto who they're seeing on television, um, disregarding that person's humanity. Mm-hmm. And, like, that person is gonna fuck up, no matter who they are. Um, that person is gonna be better, is gonna, like, do things that are, like, kind of understandable even if you don't really like them. Um, I, I think that that's what the fandom is struggling with, especially since... See, now I've told you this a million times, uh, I don't like anybody on this cast. Yep. Like, I don't like anybody on this cast. The only person I like is Lindsay, and right now how she's acting on the internet is irritating to me. Um, I don't like when Bravo lebs do too much on the internet, like Lisa Rinna. Like- Mm ... as good as she... She's great reality television. Absolutely. She did too much her last season of Re- Real Housewives of Beverly Hills on the internet, and I don't know that that's why she did not come back, but I wouldn't be shocked if it were. Right. Um, I think that, uh, Candace is a good example of somebody who, like, very entertaining on the show. Her internet presence is very obnoxious to- ... to me. I'm speaking for me. Mm-hmm. I'm not speaking for Jasmine. Um, but regardless, I think that people who are Summer House fans I think that there's, like, a... Tell me this, what do you think- Summer House is about. If someone was like, "Jasmine, tell me what Summer House is about," like from the jump to now, what would you say? So this is actually why I've never engaged in like serious discourse around Summer House, 'cause it's always been the fun show. It's not a serious show. Right? Yeah. It's not a serious... So it's, what is, what is the word? It's unserious. It's unserious. It's very unserious. Yeah. And so yeah, if I were describing Summer House, I'm like, it is literally about a group of people who go and get drunk every weekend in the Hamptons. Yeah. And they just do batshit crazy things, and we watch them. And then also, yeah, there's a couple on there that should absolutely not be together. At all. But they're together. Yeah. Um, and we also have to, in the midst of watching everybody get drunk and have fun, we have to watch them argue with each other. Yeah. But that's what Summer House has been to me. Mm. And I think it's really unfortunate because I feel like this season that just passed, season 10- Mm was actually one of the best seasons that they've had in a long time. Definitely agree. Definitely agree. Yes. And it was overshadowed by this scandal. Mm-hmm. Like, had this scandal not happened- Mm ... I would've just been like, this is the b- this is one of the best seasons of Summer House probably since like the first season of it. Yeah. Yeah. You know what I mean? I, I tot- I mean, I've, again, famously... First of all, I didn't even watch last season. Whatever- ... whatever people are talking about, Jesse, Lexi, I have no idea. I, I... That didn't even exist to me, right? Like, I have famously said, like, Summer House is just not- For m-, I mean, again, I think it's entertaining. I've never thought it was the best show on Bravo. Right. Same. Um, 'cause it's not that serious. I, I do like to like, I like the drama, um, which is probably why I was so engaged with this show before the scandal, 'cause I was so ready to see Amanda and Kyle break up, bro. I was like, "Thank God they're not gonna be together. They are so annoying." I've never... I was saying this last night on, um, Noor's podcast. I was like, you know, if I was in the room with the two... Like, and I have. Like, if I have friends, like married or f- people in a relationship friends that are bickering like that, I have literally said to them, "Hey, y'all gotta go somewhere else. I don't wanna hear it." Like, they're your children, 'cause, like, they get in their- Yeah ... own bullshit. Yeah. I find it so annoying. So, like, I was ex- I was excited to see that. And another thing, I don't know if you noticed this, but in the first couple of episodes, again, this is pre-scandal, um, they really leaned in, uh, the, the cast, particularly Amanda and Kyle, into breaking the fourth wall. Yeah. Yeah. Which I know some people really hate. Um, I love, because at this... Uh, well, I love for shows that get to this point, right? Mm-hmm. Because at some point I wanna watch the reality, and the reality is that m- most of the shit that they're fighting about is because of the show. It's not because of, like, I don't know, like, th- they're not really upset that you know, they didn't get their costume for the pool party- Right in time, you know? Like, it's about more than that. I agree. And I think also that has a lot to do with what's now going on when we're talking about West and Amanda. We've got In The City. We've got, there was, like, allegedly, like, an Ozarks spinoff that was gonna happen, and then that seemingly bit the dust, which I'm kind of upset about. I don't know how you feel. I, I would've definitely watched that. Was fascinated, but yeah. See, I never, I never took that seriously. Like, we- You didn't? No. Only because, like, I never, I never saw any, like- And this is no shade. I never saw any reputable sources report on that. Oh, yeah. No. Yeah. And then, like, nobody from, like, any, like, proposed cast, like, n- no, no hard evidence ever came out about that. I think the, the biggest piece or the most hard-hitting piece of evidence was, like, that West had a little bit of a slip-up in his interview with Jon Hamm, and he, like- Mm ... maybe started to, like, tell him about a project. But, um, n- nobody ever- Confirm ... nobody reputable ever, like, confirmed that. So I just have always... I mean, if people got excited about it, I was not gonna, like, rain on anybody's parade, but- Mm-hmm ... I was just like, "I don't know if that was ever a thing," you know what I'm saying? Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I, I think... And again, these, the fans oftentimes think that they understand the inner workings of, like, producing a show in a way that they simply don't understand. No, not at all. Um, and if there was a, a spinoff, like Ozarks, like, in the works we weren't gonna get it. I, I, I think that there... What... L- let's talk about this, 'cause I wanna hear what y- I wanna hear what you think about this. Something that I keep hearing content creators, fans, and even in this, uh, aftermath bonus episode that we got, um, I hear it repeated a lot, like, "West and Amanda blew up their lives." And it's this, like, sentiment of, like, they ruined their lives because everything was hinging on the two of them, and there's no way that Bravo would have them blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Mm-hmm. What do you think about that line of discourse that, like, Bravo just, like, morally wouldn't be able to deal with Amanda and West? Or, like, what do you think the real story is there? I, I completely oppose that sentiment- Yeah. ... because in what world, and this is no shade to Bravo- Mm-hmm ... in what world has a Bravo ever had a, a, um, solid pointing moral compass? Never. You know what I'm saying? Like, they have- Mm-hmm ... platformed people regardless of how you feel about them. They have platformed people who might have, you know, bad political, uh, affiliations or- Mm-hmm ... have done things that some people would consider terrible. They've plat- I mean, NBC Universal period, right, like they have platformed... Thank you. They have platformed, um- Lots of people with questionable moral guides. Yeah. Okay? So, uh, Wes and Amanda deciding to hook up with each other at the end of Amanda's marriage and, like, outside of Wes and Sierra's couple month, uh, tri- what is the word? Tryst? Tryst, yeah. Tryst that they had. Dalliance. They, they were... Right. They were beef- exactly. They were beefing longer or she was beefing with him longer than they were ever even together. Facts. I don't think Bravo cared that much. And, like, for people to say that they blew up their lives, I'm like, I think I even put out a thread about this. Everyone in this situation is gonna be just fine. Okay. Amanda is going to be fine. Mm-hmm. Wes is going to be fine, as evidenced by the fact that there are still people right now who are... Oh, my gosh, sorry. No, I don't care. Okay. Is this gonna be video? No. Oh, okay, good, 'cause I'm like- So you're totally fine. Oh. Oh, sorry. Run away, girls. Okay, I'm so sorry. No, you're fine. Um, shoot, where, what was I saying? What was I saying? Um, you were talking about they're gonna be fine. Yes. Evidenced now by... Right, evidenced by the fact that there are still, like, loads of people who are on their side. Yeah. Like, there are people out there who have been saying since day one, Amanda did not owe Sierra anything. Yeah. Like, Wes didn't owe Sierra anything. And I'm like, poor Kyle. Nobody has... None, none of those people were mentioning the fact that, like, I mean, she was still technically married to K- still is- She is technically married to Kyle. So yeah, I don't think that they have blown their lives up. I think they, you know, it's a sore spot within the fandom right now. But, you know, if there's one thing that I've learned over the course of, like, watching reality TV, especially now in the social media age, audiences are notoriously fickle. Yeah. And they will hate you this season today. Give it a couple of seasons, uh, get Wes on The Traitors and let him have a, a good run on The Traitors. Mm-hmm. Get him on House of Villains. Get Amanda on some stuff. In a couple of years people will act like this never happened, or they will be like, "It wasn't a big, it wasn't that big of a deal." Yeah. So nobody has blown up their lives. They're all going to be a-okay. They're really going to be just fine. I think, yeah, there's, there's a lot of, like, little... We don't have a whole lot of time today, but I, I there's a few little things that I'm like, are y'all nuts? I've seen calls for, an- I don't wanna assume that these people never watched Summer House before the scandal happened, but, like, it seems like certainly they haven't watched any other Bravo shows. Um, like s- like I think it's pretty clear that at the reunion, right? And the whole reason we needed the aftermath episode, um, or not the whole reason but part of the reason als- the whole reason is money. The real reason is- Right ... Bravo knew they could milk another episode out of it. Yes. Um, but for the viewers, like, they felt, a lot of people felt really unsatisfied coming out of the reunion, um, because, uh, Wes and Amanda were als- I'm gonna say allegedly, but I think it's pretty clear they were under the influence of, like, a pretty significant altering substance. Like, more so than, like, a beta blocker or, like, an Adderall. Right. Like, I think that they were pretty significantly sedated. Um, so that was part of it. Part of it was, in my opinion, I wanna know what you think about this, ain't much to damn say. There's not that much to damn say. Thank you. Thank you. We, we had this discussion on Reality with the King. Mm-hmm. I was saying, like, what could they have said? It was a lose-lose situation for them. Mm-hmm. I do agree, especially when you, uh, look at Amanda on the aftermath versus at the reunion. Mm-hmm. It, it was so obvious that she was, that something was going on with her- Mm-hmm ... um, on the reunion. But yeah, it's... Listen. I don't know. Yeah. Like, it, it- What could they have said? Like, Blue said they should've, they should've broken up. I'm like, you know, that would, that would have satisfied a large part of the audience, but, like, it still wouldn't have been the right thing. Like, there's nothing that they could do or say at this point that's going to make people be like, "Okay, you know, let them ride off into the sunset," or, "We forgive them." So they're damned if they do, damned if they don't. I'm also like, broken up, are they in a relationship? Because never have they actually said that, and I think that's what's been driving me crazy, is ever since the, ever since the rumors started, it's been like, wow, well now he's gonna go and he's gonna be... You, you, you reject Sierra, now you're gonna go, uh, husband up with Amanda? And I'm like, I think, if I'm being honest, Wes is gonna continue to do exactly what the fuck he does to every other girl, which is, uh- uh, feign loyalty or feign, like, monogamy and, uh- Mm-hmm ... or, or s- a, s- a relationship more serious than it is. Yeah. And, uh, just screw whoever he wants. Uh, and I haven't heard either of them say anything to the contrary, and I think that, like, Amanda knows that's what's up. I don't... Like, I, I don't know. Like, I feel like people, because they shaped this narrative, fans, in their heads of, like, what was happening, maybe based on their own experience or maybe based on, like, Scandoval, I don't know, but, like, they, they made this thing that it isn't necessarily. And then on the reunion stage, did you, did you hear anything from any of the cast that was, like, a perspective Of the c- 'cause a big thing is like, "Oh, well obviously they've been screwing since filming the season that we just watched." Uh, I didn't hear anybody give a perspective from how they felt at the time that would support that. Did, did you? No, I didn't actually. And I, I'm, like the whole timeline thing is I, I... So many people are hung up on the fact that Wes and Amanda are lying about the timeline, and I'm like, "If they are, there's no proof to the contrary." Yeah. You know what I'm saying? Yeah. So it's like we could look at all of these like weird instances, but like what I've, what I've been saying since this scandal came out is like they are a very touchy feely group. Yes. Like they lay in, you know, they get in bed together. They, they change in front of each other. They cuddle. They kiss, you know, whenever they want to. So it's like stuff that looks weird through the lens of this scandal is just shit that they would've been doing anyway. Yeah. So like I don't think we w- will ever like know if they're lying about the timeline or not. Um, I will say to the point of you saying or, or kind of questioning if they're actually in a relationship, Wes has claimed that he's, he's exclusive with Amanda. I think that's what he was saying in like the third part of the reunion- Oh, yeah ... or he was saying it with Kyle. So like he did say that 'cause I remember thinking like, "Oh, this is like the first time that I'm hearing him like claim something or like say out loud that he is exclusive with someone." So he is like in that regard I guess moving differently with Amanda, but I don't think it's because like he just wants to. I think they got caught and like- Mm-hmm ... they're kind of digging their, their heels in the sand with this relationship or whatever. Mm-hmm. And so I think they kind of have to put that, that face on. But I, I think he is gonna try to play the exclusive game with Amanda for as long as he can. Yeah. 'Cause Wes is, Wes is a fuckboy, and that's another thing I was saying on Reality K- with the King. There's like some people are trying to throw in a racial element because Sierra just so happens to be Black. I think so, Sierra just so happens to be a Black woman on Wes' roster. Mm-hmm. I don't think Wes was shitting on Sierra because she's Black. Right. Like I think Wes just treats women that way. Yeah. And the optics of him doing that to Sierra don't look great. Right. But I don't think it's specifically because she's Black. Like, he has just women... He just leaves a trail of women wherever he goes. That's what fuckboys do. Yes. That's just what fuckboys do. And I, I think that not only is he, like, uh, I don't think that he discriminates against anybody for their race. Uh, he also just, like, if you're a pr- if you're a beautiful woman, I think he's gonna smash. West loves bad bitches. He loves bad bitches. He loves bad bitches, and for some reason he's able to bag them, so It's, I think what it is is that every... I think that there's some truth to the idea that, like, with every bad bitch he bangs, he gains access to another level of bad bitchery, you know? I, I agree with that. I agree with that. 'Cause once you have one under your belt, it's like, "Oh," you know? Yes. "I, I can do this. I can do this." I have an ex who I'm, like, constantly offended by because Maybe he doesn't date bad, but just normally. And then, uh, then he dated me, and then, uh, I was offended- Hello ... by the last chick he dated. Um, and I was like, "Hey, I really wish you would just really, like, give me some credit." Um, so really I think it's- You weren't as bad as Betty? Yes, I think so. And, um, I mean, that's really mean to say, but, uh- Not really. Uh, yeah, everyone will be fine. Um. Yeah. Um, yeah, but I think, I think that's, I think that's true, too. I think that people... Also, guys like West Maybe they're rare in New York. I know white guys like West all over the city of Atlanta. There's a guy that works at a bar in Atlanta called Righteous Room- Mm-hmm ... that looks exactly like West. And, uh, I don't think it's, like, abnormal for him to have, like, a diverse group of friends or anything. Like, I don't know. I, I, I can't... I don't know. I don't know him personally. But, like- Yeah ... I, I just think it is kind of interesting. I'm kind of coming from a lens of, like, uh, people are like, "What's up with his style and everything?" I'm like, I know a bunch of guys that are like that here. And he's from the Midwest. Like, I grew up in the Midwest. Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. Like, I, I have seen every type of white boy that you- Yeah ... can put in front of me. Like, I'm never shocked because I feel like I've encountered, I've, I've dated some of them. Oh, yeah. You know what I'm saying? Some of them, like, in my past. Yeah. So it's like West, I, I, I think I've said this before, like, W- I don't, I have not found West particularly, like, oh my gosh, so handsome. No. But I think I said, like, if I ran into West, like, if I was in my 20s, this is back in the day, day, day, and I bumped into West in a club, like on Water Street in Milwaukee- ... and we struck up a conversation, it wouldn't shock me to, like, walk away with his number. Like, w- you know what I'm saying? For us to walk away with each other's numbers, like, it wouldn't be surprising. So nothing about his style, like, I don't feel like he's appropriating anything. Like, I genuinely just feel like he's just a product of, like, being in different, like, diverse circles. He played collegiate sports. Yeah. You know what I'm saying? Yeah. So it's like that also adds another layer of just being around a bunch of different people. Mm-hmm. Um, and then kind of co-opting the styles, but not in a malicious way. So, like- Yeah ... yeah, he's just a product of, of where he grew up, I think. I don't know. It's his environment. The Midwest. Yeah, some people have very segregated, uh, experiences living in the Midwest. I personally just kind of grew up with, like, everything- Mm-hmm in my face, so. Yeah. Yeah. I think, uh... Well, okay, something else that we gotta talk about, uh, the, the response... Okay, so we get this aftermath episode, right? Yeah. First, the first quarter or the first third is Amanda and Lindsay, where Lindsay, uh, pulls it out of her, right? That- She was, uh, drunk and on drugs all the time hanging out with West and was single for the first time, and she doesn't really know how it happened, but they started banging, you know? Uh, which was good enough for me. That's what I assumed the whole time anyway. So I didn't really need her to explain that. Um, well, and actually let me, let me switch gears really quick because I was thinking Lindsay, um, pulled it out of her. Then I was like, she smoked it out of her because Lindsay famously on the leaked audio from the reunion says, "You got smoked out talking to West and Amanda." Yeah. But we never heard that on the actual reunion. And, uh, so sorry to switch gears, but I, I really wanna ask you, what is your theory for the re- reunion leaked audio? What do you think happened there? Um, who... How did it get leaked? Like, what, what's your, what's your conspiracy or your, your thought process? To be honest with you, I don't think I have really thought too deeply into it. Like, it just seems like it's so funny with this. There are some things that I really think a lot about, and some shit I'm just like, "Okay, whatever." It's just like, it happens. Yeah. Right? Yeah. Um, cost of doing business. So I think the leak was just like, oh, somebody on production Wanted to record this. They sent it probably to a tr- someone that they thought they could trust, and then that person sent it out, and, like, it just unfortunately got out that way. Yeah. But I don't think there was, like, a big conspiracy behind the leaked audio. Like, um, I think Blue... Also, I, I keep referencing Reality with the King, but it's 'cause I've been recapping- Right so- You literally just did it, yeah. With the... Yeah. She was saying that, um, she thinks or she heard- Mm-hmm ... that they, a producer leaked the audio from their union because Bravo was gonna try to give Amanda a softer edit. I don't know that it's that deep, because there, there's been this, uh, there's been a lot... Not to, not to, like, go off on a tangent and not come back up. No, please. I know where you're going, and I want you to go there. Yeah. Yeah. There's been almost, like, a everybody... There's a rumor that Bravo is doing everything in their power to save Amanda or to, to prop Amanda up because of Summer House and In the City, and I'm like, the success of, the success of those shows does not hinge on Amanda. Right. Like, she's never been a dynamic reality star. Like- No ... she's only been slightly interesting because of her husband and then- Mm-hmm ... because of her friendships. But her as, like, a standalone person, you could axe her from Summer House and from In the City and, like, we wouldn't miss anything. Right. So I just can't get behind this idea that there's a concerted effort to try to protect Amanda at all costs. Mm-hmm. Uh, 'cause she's just not that dynamic to me. So I don't- Yeah ... believe that there was any, like, um, excuse me, efforts to give her a softer edit and they needed to, uh, leak this audio. I just think somebody was working, they recorded something, wanted to send it to their bestie, like, "Hey, bestie, listen to, listen to how, like, Amanda's being ate, ate up." Yeah. Eaten up, but I know ate up is, like, how, how the girls say it. But listen, listen- How the kids are saying it, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Um, listen to this. Listen to how they're going at her. I think they sent it to someone, that person sent it, and it just kind of got out of control, 'cause, you know, we, you and I, got exclusives of the audio- We did. We did ... before it was Before the world got it, we got it in our group chat. But, um- Yeah, so I think that's just what happened with- Yeah ... with the leaked audio. And then they, they played a good amount of, like, what we heard on the show. They cut some stuff out, but that's just par for the course. Mm-hmm. A lot of stuff gets left out on, left on the editing, on the cutting room floor. So- Yeah ... I think they did... You know, it was... I don't think there was a big conspiracy around it, do you? No, I don't think it was... I mean, I mean, I mean, I, uh, I'm of two minds. I'm either like, it was the ultimate conspiracy, or it just wasn't that deep. Uh, I don't like the black-and-white thinking, but I think with that it's one or the other, 'cause like, the searching the... Okay. If Bravo's trying to protect anything, it's the In the City IP, right? 'Cause that's what makes the money. Yeah. That's what gets viewers. People are not tuning in for, from what I understand and from, like, how I view it, people are not actually, um, as, as attached as they may seem to these characters online. Uh, the, the individual talent is not as profitable as- Right ... the IP. Yeah. And what I think Bravo was concerned about wasn't, like- wasn't so much about Amanda bad, West bad, like Kyle and Sierra good. Like, it wasn't like that. It was like If Wes and Amanda's relationship did cross over the time of In The City, then everything that we filmed and edited and, and put ready to go won't make sense. Right. And the viewers know that. Yeah. So if there's any kind of, like, narrative shifting happening, it's specifically to make In The City make sense. And- I agree ... I also think, this is my humble opinion, not so humble, but this is my opinion, when they announced that shit, I was like, "We don't need this shit. There, it's not gonna d- it's stupid. No one's gonna watch that." Thank you. But if they do watch it, what are they gonna be watching for? Not Lindsay, who I like. Um, they're gonna be watching for, like, how... They wanna figure out how did Kyle and Amanda fall apart. Right. And my thing is, I never believed whatever they said in the first place. Like, I think, I don't think you can look at their marriage and say that, like, they've been in a good place and all of a sudden it fell apart. I don't think they were ever going to stupid marriage counseling, not, not like they were, well, not like they're trying to say on the show. I just don't- Mm ... I just genuinely don't believe it, 'cause I don't believe this cast of people. I agree. I think, I think that they have, more than any of the other, like, docu-soaps, I think that they have a, a lot of time to kinda, off camera, uh, because of the nature of how they film the show every weekend, to, uh, kinda, like, get together and, and coordinate. Yeah. Yeah. And so I think, I think a lot of what this cast does is just, like, PR, and, like, and, like, promo- they're more like influencers than anything else, you know? I totally agree with you, and honestly, that speaks to, that speaks to a larger issue that I'm having just with reality TV overall. Mm-hmm. I think we've reached the point in reality TV, it's been around for so long, everyone that goes on is so self-aware that we're- Yes ... very rarely getting, like, real shit when we see- Yeah people. Like, even if it's a new show- Mm ... the people on that new show, they have been consuming reality TV for what, like, 20 years at this point of you? Yeah. Like, um, so it's like I am less interested in most reality TV these days, 'cause like you just said, like, I feel like they all just kind of either, if they don't come together as a group, the individuals sit down and they're like, "Okay, this is what I'm gonna present this season." Yeah. "This is, like, how I wanna come off." Um, if you're a new person on a reality show, "Okay, I want people to call me, like, the next NeNe. I want them to call me the next Kenya, the next Lisa Rinna," whatever. Right. So everybody kind of comes in, comes in with this, uh, agenda- Yes ... that they, that... You know what I'm saying? That they're- Yeah ... trying to complete for a season, and so it makes watching it less fun. Like, I'm, I'm starting to become very disillusioned with all of it because I'm just like, it's not even fun, okay? Reality TV is supposed to be fun. Yes. Um, and I'm not really having that much fun with it. And so yeah, when they announced In The City I was just like, "I don't care." 'Cause, like, t- I know you love Lindsay- I know a lot of you guys love Lindsay. I'm very indifferent on her. Like- Yeah ... I wouldn't, I wouldn't say, I think she's a great reality TV star and she is very dedicated to being a reality TV star. Yes. So I respect Lindsay. Yes. That's the thing. The, I think that's- I always- me too. I- Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I, I always respect a bitch who's, like, dedicated to their craft and wanting to do that well. But, like, I'm not emotionally attached to her at all. Like, Kyle and Amanda, we've been watching them bicker and argue for the better part of, like, 10 seasons- 10 years, child ... now, so it's like, yeah, I, I think my only curiosity, you, you actually just brought this up, with In The City was like, okay, what was, what was the point in which they just decided that they weren't gonna do it anymore? That's what I would've wanted to see. Yeah. But now we know everything we're watching is, has happened like, what, like a year and a half ago? Yeah. Which is like, why would you film that and then, like, release it so late? That's, that's kinda silly in and of itself. Yeah. It's an, it's an interesting, uh, yeah, the release of In The City and the rollout and the promotion for it has been really strange. Yeah. And, and hard for me to... I think that they're like, it's, they're, obviously they're trying to do, like, a, the Valley with In The City. Yeah. Um, but I think that the Valley should be canceled. I think they should have canceled it two seasons ago, but- ... no one listens to me. So here we are. You, you and Donna, Donna Bolling both feel that way. She said- Donna Bolling thinks this is the last season of The Valley ... I, I can't, you know, I can't predict, but God, I hope so. Put these people out of their damn misery, honey. The Valley is, like, particularly bad- Mm-hmm ... this season, and it's like- It's not even aspirational at all. Like- No, no ... you know what I'm saying? Like- I know. ... with VPR it was like... Well, also, I think VPR was a very special s- time because it, it, once, it, it, it just came out at a great time, and then the audience was much younger. So, like, it was kind of aspirational to watch these people, even though they were just working as servers in this restaurant. Yeah. Watching them, like, work as servers and go through relationships and try to maybe become actors or performers or something when you're also in your 20s trying to become whoever you're gonna become. Yeah. That's why VPR was so interesting. And then we see them in The Valley, and it's like this is the other side of adulthood, and it's like, oh, bitch, that does not look fun at all, actually. No. It looks, it- I've never... I worked with kids for eight years, and I don't want children, but boy howdy, do I super not want to ever have children or a family. Like, I'm, I'm actually so good with the cat. Like- We're good. Um- Yeah ... yeah. Um, so yeah, In the City to me, also too, they, they took, you know, I guess who they consider, like, the stars of Summer House. Um, but then the people that they surrounded with those stars are, I'm so disinterested in, in them. So, so boring. Like, I have no interest in any of the people on the cast of In the City, and they just don't seem particularly engaging to me. I don't know. No. I tried to watch a couple of episodes for, um, again, the podcast I was on last night, and, uh, the reality is, and I was like, I told Noor, I was like, yeah, I had to fast-forward through all the other stuff with these other people 'cause I just, I can't care. Yeah. Like, it's hard to care. Now, I wanna ask you this. I have just two more things I wanna ask you. Sure. The, the first thing, so kind of getting back to what we were saying about- fans' response and the black and white and the kinda like team sports is what I like to say, like that kind of attitude that people take towards reality television. Yeah. What do y- do you think when we're reflecting on how the Summer House people, right, how they show up or how you're saying a lot of the new, of reality shows are not as engaging because people are not showing up authentic because they wanna present a certain way and they wanna be received a certain way. How do you think fan discourse plays into that? Uh, a- and maybe, I, I think that my opinion is that, you know, you can yell at Bravo all day, "Fire this, fire that, fire them," but Bravo's not gonna do that, right? Mm-hmm. They're not listening to us. The only people that are listening to us are the talent. Yeah. And that's what's making them get in their own heads and, and not be authentic. Do you, do you kinda see where, what I'm saying with that? Yeah, no, and I 100% agree with you. I, I made a video about this, like, two years ago- Mm-hmm ... and it was, it was specifically about, like, the Housewives, right? Mm-hmm. And, like, why they, why I think they saw a downfall. And, like, one of the points that I made was, like, we as the fandom, like, a part of this is our fault. Like- Yes ... most people on reality TV, they are playing to the audience. Like, that's a big reason why I'm so indifferent on Lindsay because I feel like Lindsay does a lot of shit because she knows that the audience are gonna be like, "Yes." Yeah. "Mother Hubbard," right? Like, I can, I can see, and I'm not saying, like, I have, like, a special power, I'm, like, so much smarter than other people, but, like- I think you are I've thank you. So. But I've, like, I've been watching reality TV for so long, and then, like, working in the industry, like, you can almost see when somebody on TV is, like, doing something because they want the re- the audience to receive it and perceive it in a certain way. Yes. So it's, like, the fandom, like, we are actually shaping these shows in real time, and that's the thing that I hate, right? Yes. Because most people who watch reality TV are not casting directors, directors. They are not producers. And so, like, if you do something and, like, a big part of the audience hates it, and it's, but it's authentic, authentic to you, but then you come back and you don't do that thing anymore because the audience hates it, now you're allowing them to shape who you are as a person. Yes. They should never be able to do that because like I said- No ... we as audiences are fickle. Yeah. So we might hate that thing that you did in season one, and then if you come back in season two and you still do that thing, we might live for it for- Yeah ... in season two, right? Yeah. So it's like, stop, they, they have to stop letting us as the audience dictate, like, how they act on these shows because- Yeah they're never gonna, they're never gonna show their, their true selves if they're allowing us to tell them what it should look like. I'm almost like, can they just, like, uh, ban- Bravo celebrities from, uh, seeing the internet. Like, if, if you're caught seeing the internet, your contract is, uh, null and void. Um, because you can't- It's a double-edged sword. Yeah. Because also- It is a double-edged sword ... sorry, go ahead. Oh, no, no. I was just gonna say it's a double-edged sword because also without fan discourse, a lot of these shows- Yes ... wouldn't be as popular- Yep ... as they are, so. That's exactly what I was gonna say. And it's also like- Part of what I love about watching the show, and I've said this a bunch, especially throughout the series, is engaging with other people about the show. That's, like, something that I really enjoy. Yeah. But at the end of the day I don't wanna be, like... Uh, I mean, he- h- a great example in my opinion, two great examples. Uh, Scheana Shay, who I am notoriously... I, I like Lindsay. I'm saying Lindsay's, like, the, the least of the ones I hate- Right ... on that show. I could g- leave or take Lindsay. Yeah. Uh, I'll never leave Scheana Shay. Yeah, Scheana Shay hives, stand up. That's me, girl. Jasmine, y'all Jasmine tags me anytime anyone's like, "How do you feel about Scheana Shay?" Jasmine's like, "It's your time, girl. Come on." "You've been called to the pulpit." You've been summoned. Yes. Um, but yeah, I think that it, it's hard because I wanna interact, but then of course I have this platform that I'm very inconsistent with, um, that I can also talk about these shows. Which I do think that a lot of the discussions around something sensitive and complicated, um, what's happening on Summer House, particularly as it pertains to Sierra, uh, is better suited for long form talking- Yeah ... conversational than it- Yeah ... is for, like, posts on Threads that get people's attention that don't even know what a Summer House is. Right. And then for some reason they still respond. It's crazy. Um, but in that, in that same vein, my, my last thing I wanted to ask you about is as a content creator yourself, have... What has your experience been specifically covering this season, um, because you are so objective, and you do have- Mm ... such a really, and I really mean this, like, such a valuable viewpoint- Mm having worked in podcast production- Mm ... having been, like, again, in the rooms with the people that make the shows, like Carlos King. Like, you were the EP for, was it for, uh, uh- Reality With The King. Yeah. Mm-hmm. That's like, I know you, I know y- you, you must get tidbits of things. Yeah. And I only say that to say that, like, not that you're g- gonna, like, spill all your secrets, but you have- Right an informed perspective. Mm-hmm. Um, and, and so I'm wondering with how heated this, this, this, this course about Summer House this season has been when it never has been like this- Right ... for this show, what has that been like for you as a content creator? Um, it's been interesting because- I have put my opinions out there, and I think one of the most frustrating things about being a content creator or, and YouTuber, um, podcaster, you know, whatever you are when you, when you are, are, um, publicly commenting on things- Yeah um, is having people, like, misunderstand you almost, right? Yeah. And it's just uh, I could say this thing about, um, Sierra and Wes and how their relationship was so short-lived to me that I don't understand the disappointment that Sierra has towards Wes, 'cause I'm like, y'all were apart longer than you were together. Mm-hmm. And when you were together it was not serious, and, and, and, and he had this whole thing where he went publicly to a huge publication and talked about how you guys were not each other's person, right? Yeah. And so it's like you, you go back and you, you ignore him for a season, and then the next season we kinda see you start to forgive him and go back into his life, so much so that you are saying, "He is my person," after he's publicly said you guys are not, right? Yeah. So it's like- I've said this in so many words, like, there is no reason. Like, Sierra to me being upset about Wes and then by proxy Amanda, that does not really compute to me- Right ... 'cause she shouldn't be. And then having people take that opinion so personally. Mm-hmm. And it's like now it's an attack on Sierra, and then now it's like the added thing of like, you're a Black woman, you must hate Black women or, like, you, you have a lot of... Like, somebody under one of Carlos' clips that he posted said I was self-hating, like I must hate myself as, like- Ugh ... a Black woman because I'm critiquing another Black woman. And I'm like, "I don't think you guys have met me before." Right. I don't give a fuck if you're a Black, orange, white, yellow, pink. Right. I don't care what color you are, if I have an opinion on you, whether that opinion is good or bad, that's what I'm going to say. Right. Like, none of... You know what I'm saying? Like, it do- that does not make me have, uh... You're not automatically good to me because we share an identity, right? Right. And I'm not, not automatically... You're not off limits because we share an identity- Right ... with the job that I do. Um, and then even with me critiquing Sierra, that doesn't mean that I don't feel empathy for her. Right. Just, like, as much as I can look at the situation and be like, "I don't understand it," I can also look at it and be like, "The reason I don't understand it is because I don't have Sierra's heart and her feelings." Yeah. And so then I can be like, "Okay, she did really like this guy for reasons I don't understand, but she did like him." Yeah. Yeah. She did look at Amanda as a friend, and she was a really good friend to Amanda as evidenced by the show. So then I'm like, I could, I can totally understand this. Right. I don't get it- Right but I can understand it. But it's like you can't put all of that in one thread. Yeah. Um, and then it's like even when I put it into, uh, an entire YouTube video, most people are not taking the time out to, like, go and watch your entire YouTube videos, especially if they see a clip on- online, and if that clip is inflammatory, they don't wanna go back and, like, understand the context of, like, why you said the thing. Yes. And so they're just mad at this, like, you know, 30-second clip. Yeah. And so, like, my experience with Summer House particularly this season- has been probably more controversial. Yeah. Um, and I think I've received much more criticism on my opinion than I have in the past for any other show. Yeah. Um, and it's, it's mostly because Ciara is the golden child of Summer House right now, and you cannot say anything negatively about her. Mm-hmm. And I have said stuff that goes against that. Mm-hmm. I have said things, you know, even when I'm like, "Yeah, Amanda and West are shitty, but also this thing," it doesn't matter that I also said West and Amanda are shitty. No. It's like if I say anything against Ciara I must be pro-West or pro-Amanda. Yes. And I'm like, I'm not pro anybody in this situation. No. Like- All these people are boring. They're all... Right, and then that's the, that's the other thing, right? It's like people are like, "Give Ciara her own show," and I'm like, guys. Guys. Let's be so fucking for real about this. Ciara is not a great reality TV star. Like- Thank you, Jesus ... she is fun. Right? Like, if, if there was a, um, a, a, a show where people were needing to do, like, unique costumes or something like that, I could totally see that for her. Yes. Yes. But, like, to give her her own show when, like, just a few seasons ago you guys were talking about how boring her and the bedbugs were. Yeah. It's like now all of a sudden this scandal happens and she is NeNe Leakes. Like, we gotta be for real about that. We really do. Um, I actually have, uh, famously, and by famously I mean, like, in a voice message to you and one thread that I posted. Um, I have been saying that there are a few different Bravo stars that I would like to pluck out of their, um, respective franchises and put into, like, new ideas for shows. Um, one is Brittany Cartwright, who I would still... Which she already, she did it without my permission, which is fine, but, um, I wanted to have her do, like, a, a Brittany Cartwright Getting My Sporkle Back. And, like, it's, like, a combination of, like, Khloe Kardashian's, like, Revenge Body, but it's, like, what not to wear. Yeah. But it's also, like, a little bit of a dating show. Like, her getting back, uh, on her feet. Uh, and they, uh, you know, she just ran away and did whatever she wanted to do, so fine. Um, another idea that I had for Sierra was for Bravo to, like, reboot or reinvent the, like, Fashion Police, um, E!'s Fashion Police, and have Sierra, um... And I don't think you have to, like, agree with her fashion choices. Right. I just think she would be a good fit for a show like that. Yeah. Um- She's a model. She's a model. Yeah. Um, Sierra Venita from Southern Charm would be- Yeah ... really great. Venita's, I find her very, um, I don't, uh, I don't love how she, how she interacts with, with her friends on the show, but, uh, she's a fascinating person. She's super shady too, which is why I think she'd make- ... a great housewife. Um, but, like, her, Braunwyn from Salt Lake City. Yeah. Um, just 'cause I need her. I don't like Braunwyn, so I just, I want her to be somewhere else. Um, I'm, I'm also, like, not really a huge fan of Braunwyn. Not in the way, like, the girls live for Braunwyn and I'm like- I live for her I watched, watched it and I'm like, "I don't get it." And I'm like, also the fashion, while she, like, wears these pieces, I feel like, I feel she seems like a tryhard to me. She is. She's- She's, like, inauthentic. She's, she's like, yeah, yeah. She seems like tryhard. But for a show like Fashion Police, 100% I would allow it. That would make sense. Yeah. And then the other idea that I had, my final one, I'm pitching these to you. I- if, if Sierra did do a home renovation show, it could be with her and her mom. Mm-hmm. And it could be called Run of the Millers. Run of the Millers. Wait, that's so good actually. Thank you so much. That's so good. I'm full of ideas. I, no, I love that. Do you remember that season when, uh, of Real Housewives of Atlanta, Kenya, they all went to Todd's, Kandi's ex-husband. They went to his condo in New Jersey. Yes, Jesus. And yeah, and Kenya was like, "Oh, he should do this. He should do that." And Kenya was like, "I love home renovations." I came up with an idea called Moore Renovations, like M-O-O-R-E, Moore Renovations. Ugh. Like, a home improvement show that Kenya Moore could host. She- So, like, yeah. Definitely. You know? Yeah. 'Cause look what she did with Moore Manor. Like, it was- Beautiful ... you know? And it looks- Yeah ... great now. So, yes, Run of the Millers- Yeah is actually so clever. I love, I, listen, I live for a good title, bitch. Like, I love- Me too ... a good title. Mm-hmm. Run of the Millers, I like that. Um, I was gonna say Bravo Calls, but actually HGTV. No, I was thinking HGTV too. Like- Yeah ... I don't think I, I agree. Sorry. You know, sue me, I don't think Sierra's a great reality star. That doesn't mean she shouldn't be on a reality show. I just don't think that she fits for the docu-soap- Right ... style. Which me and, uh, uh, Noor were talking about last night, like, I feel the same way about KJ. I think that the conversation around KJ has been weird. Yeah. Um- So weird ... either people are, like, infantilizing him, or they're, like, they're, like, being unrealistic about- what to expect from him considering what he shared with us. Yes. And I was, like, talking to Nora last night. I was like, "I don't think that KJ should be on a docu-soap." That doesn't mean he shouldn't be on reality TV, but maybe he should host, like, a Jackass type thing, him and his, you know, skateboard friends in New York City or something. Oh, right, with the skateboard thing. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Or, or like something like that. Uh, she had a good idea. I can't remember what it was. Go listen to her episode. She dropped it today, um, for Nora's Idea. Yeah. But like, you know, there's, there's... I, I, I think people also take it so personally when we're like, "This person isn't good on the show." It doesn't mean that they're not good, they could never fit in on reality TV. Correct. It just means that, like, maybe there needs to be some, like, more ideas thrown out there, and it doesn't mean that Bravo's gonna take them. I mean, obviously th- this requires money, and like- Sure ... lots of time and effort. But I don't know. I, I, I try to, I try to approach my fandom with Uh, c- come to it with an idea for improvement, not- Sure ... just a complaint, you know what I mean? Yeah. No, no, no, I, I agree with you. And I think another, you know, to the point that we were just talking about, um, there's a reason why these shows are ensemble casts. Yeah. You know what I'm saying? It's like you could be good in a group of people. Yep. Um, and then that, that's, that's why oftentimes when we see p- some people get spinoffs, the spinoffs just don't work, 'cause this person is dynamic in the group that they're with. That's why casting for these shows is so important. Yes. Because you have to cast around a bunch of different personalities, and then you have to cast people who are gonna bring out the best of those personalities. Yes. So it's, it's not an easy thing. And so when we all, and I say we because I have been guilty of this in the past. Mm. When we're sitting here and we're like, "Fire that person," or such and such shouldn't come back- Oh, yeah or they should do X, Y, and Z on that show, it's like, well, there's an art to casting a really good ensemble show. I know. Mm-hmm. And like being a good reality star in an ensemble does not automatically mean you would be really good on a spinoff. Like, I've been seeing, I made a video about this, the, the call for KJ, Mia, and Sierra to have a spinoff show, and I'm like, "That would not, you guys would not like that." No, no. You guys wouldn't like that. Like- No ... the novelty of it would be, you know, you would like the novelty of it at first. Yeah. But then I just don't, I don't think it would have legs. I think Mia is a great addition- Ugh ... to Summer House. She's so great. She's so great. So good on- Yes ... Summer House, right? Correct. Yeah. E, on Summer House. Yes. I didn't watch... I know she had a real estate, she was on a real estate show before. Okay. It was called, like, Selling the Hamptons. Oh, she- oh my gosh. Um, I didn't watch it 'cause I don't like reality sh- or real estate. What? You saw it? Wait a minute. I feel like I... Was it on Hulu, or did it, is it on Hulu to, like, stream? I don't think it's on Bravo. I think I may have watched an episode of that. I don't remember her though, but I think I may have watched an episode of that Like, she's, she's just so... I said this on, on Threads too, she's such a star. She's so- Yeah ... energetic. She knows how to, like, she just knows h- how to work it. Yeah. And- Very charming. Extremely charming ... now check this out. If Run of the Millers gets picked up, KJ comes down for an episode to, like, p- you know, I don't know, Mia comes in with her real estate expertise for an episode, like- Yeah ... stuff like that. That could be a good way for Sierra to, um, h- host a, another opportunity for her friends. Right. And we could see these friends in this, in a different light. Um, again, y- you just gotta think outside of the box instead of spending all day telling me that I'm a misogynist because I don't think it's that big of a damn deal. Um, or that I think that maybe it's super weird that Sierra and Mija, or is it Meja, are, uh, meeting up because I think that's, like, some, uh, trifling shit Personally- I know it. Yeah. I, I thought that was so weird. But I had to check myself- So cringey ... 'cause I was like, "This is so lame," and then I, I checked myself in real time on Reality With Kinga 'cause I was like, "Oh, I think it's lame," but then I remember I've done that. I've done it too. And like- Oh, yeah ... yeah, like I've done, like you- Mm-hmm you meet with the other girl and you guys compare notes and all of that. And I, like even famously, one of my really good girlfriends, we met because we like dated the same guy a long time ago. And like we're so cool, and that guy is nowhere in our lives at all. Yeah. So like it was cringey, and then I was like, "Oh, I, I have been guilty of this." And that, that's the other thing with reality TV is like it does make me reflect a lot on just like what I'm watching and the lens that I'm viewing it through because obviously, like I'm in my late 30s watching somebody like Sierra, who I think just turned 30. Yeah. A lot of the stuff she does, or most of these people on the cast, outside of Kyle, Lindsay, and Carl, everybody is like pretty much younger than me. Yeah. Um, watching them through the lens that, o- of like where I am now in life, it's so easy for me to judge them harshly. Yes, yes. But then once I sit back and I'm like, "Okay, was I kind of in the same place, or was I doing like similarly cringey things- Yes ... when I was 30 or when I was like in my late 20s?" Yes, I was. Yes. And so it makes me step back, but it has been interesting to like, to, to play or, or have these different opinions and feelings with, um, public discourse, like putting- Mm-hmm ... stuff on Threads or on YouTube because it's also like once you have an opinion, you almost can't change it. Yeah. 'Cause like I can't, you can't... You critique Sierra one day, and then the other day, like you have empathy for her, and then there's somebody inevitably who's gonna call you out and be like, "I, I thought you didn't like her," and now I have to correct you and be like, "I literally never said I didn't like her." Yeah. Indifference does not equal dislike. You perceive that. Yeah. Yes, yes. Like you just assume that I don't like her because I'm being critical of this one thing that she did, but like I don't even know these people enough to have like strong feelings of hatred towards them. I could never hate somebody. No. I, I think where I think the things, and I, I've brought this up before, but like reality television in its inception was s- supposed to be a reflection of culture at the time and society at the time. Yeah. Where I think things are getting a little topsy-turvy now is we as the audience are thinking that we are supposed to, that we are supposed to i- reflect it almost. Like it should be a reflection of us rather than like it- Oh ... it is a reflection of the culture. Yeah. W- which isn't, that doesn't, that's not what... This is entertainment. This isn't like a, like an actual... It's not a personal documentary that's following you around, okay? Right. And I also think that to, to your point about thinking back and being like, "Okay, I've, I've done some crazy shit in my 20s," same. Um, but I sometimes feel like maybe enough people haven't because- I'm like, some of the ways that these people act like they've never, not- Forget they've never been the w- other woman or they've never been the woman to, like, get messy with someone they shouldn't have. Th- th- they're, they'll go as far as to say, "I would never have a friend like Amanda." And I'm like, "Okay, well when your best friend fucks up 'cause she's human, what are, are you really, you dump her in the name of, like, what? A man?" Uh, like bec- Like, that's not how it works, and these people are coworkers also. Yeah. That adds a dynamic that you don't have. Hello? Absolutely. And, like, we're all capable of doing very shitty things. We're all capable of doing something that, like, in our minds it doesn't feel shitty, but to other people, right, other people will perceive it as wrong. Yeah. And so it's like I think audiences also, like, fail to be... Like, a lot of, I think a lot of the fandom just isn't real with themselves. Correct. Like, they hold these people... You know what I'm saying? Like, they have these, these, um- They hold these people to these, like, high standards that are impossible for any human being to meet, themselves included. And then what they wanna do on the internet is, is posture- Yeah ... as if they are these beings of, like, moral righteousness. Yes. And it's like, I would never have a friend like Amanda. Like, if my sister came to me right now and was like, "Uh, I'm dating this guy, but, like, he used to date my friend," what am I supposed to do, diss on my sister? You're my sister. Throw her out. At the end of the day. All right, but- Say, "Go to Italy, bitch." Right. I, I, I, I mean, I will tell... I will talk to you about it being wrong and, and kind of, you know, with that. But it's like, when people who are close to you do shitty things, most people are able to find it in themselves to be like, "Okay, I recognize this as a bad thing. I'll talk to you about it." But if we're keeping it real, most of the times people aren't even, like, holding people in their lives accountable the way they do these reality stars, 'cause they don't have the balls to do it in real life. Right. It is easier to do it on Threads and- It is ... on TikTok and Instagram. Yes. But it's like, we're all capable- Yes ... of doing really messed up stuff, and like... And, and that, that might be why the West here and Amanda thing, I'm like, it's a shitty thing, but I'm like, it's not the fucking end of the world. No. Like, it is not the end of the world. When I was reflecting on it, I was like, I actually recently was in a circumstance, uh, where I was, like... Essentially I was like the KJ. I was unaffected personally, but, like, uh, someone I really loved hurt someone else that I really loved over a guy. The difference though, and I, and I actually thought about it. I was like, I actually... 'Cause I was kinda like, "KJ, why are you... If, if, if West is your best friend from childhood, why are you, like, throwing him out like that? Like, I don't, I don't understand that." Right. But then I thought about it. I was like, actually, I did do that. I was so pissed at the one friend who slept with the guy, and, uh, because it hurt me on behalf of my other really close friend. The difference was he actually cheated on the friend one with friend two. So, like- Got it ... they were in a relationship. Right, yeah. Uh, that's where I'm kinda like, we gotta look at the facts. Like- I don't know. I don't know if it's 'cause Sierra still feels, like, attached to him that w- we are... But then the fans aren't picking up on that because I, for the first few weeks everyone was like, "It's not that she still has feelings for him, it's the friendship betrayal." And I was like, "I think it's, I think it's 'cause she still has feelings for him- It's a- ... or else there wouldn't be a friendship betrayal." Thank you so much. It's 100% the fact that she still has feelings for this guy. Like- Yes ... we, we saw her kissing him, um, in like the last few episodes of- Mm-hmm ... season 10. Mm-hmm. He, he actually put her on blast in this aftermath episode when he was saying that they were cool again, they made... They, like, kissed maybe twice. Mm-hmm. And he was actively trying to create a boundary because he knew he didn't want anything other than friendship with her. Right. So she was, like, asking for his address. He said no. Mm-hmm. She, like, invited him. It was, like, a birthday thing. I don't know if it was her birthday, his birthday, something. He decided not to go or something like that. So he's actively telling, like, these instances where he was drawing the boundary because he knew that he didn't want anything more than a friendship with her. Mm-hmm. And I think that's the thing. That's the biggest thing with Sierra is the fact that Wes did not choose her in a romantic way. Yeah. And I think her ego is bruised about that and she's hurt about that. And we've seen Sierra, for lack of a better word, for lack of a better term, be possessive over men- Be possessive over men that she is not in a relationship with. Yeah. She did the same thing with Austin. Ugh, that was tough. Like, she was, she was ready to go to war with Lindsay and, uh, Danielle. She literally threw glass- Did she? ... a glass of wine at Danielle. Yeah, like it's like- S- Sierra wants to have... If she dates someone, then that person is just automatically off limits, I guess indefinitely. Yeah. And I just feel like, and a- again, this is me, like, kind of being thir- 37 years old- Yeah. ... also married too, so I don't wanna act like it's, it's not a big deal. But it's like, if you date someone and for one, if it's not that serious- Yeah ... and then some time goes by, I don't think they should... I d- I think people should have free rein. Like, they should be- Mm, yeah ... open. Like, you know what I'm saying? It's like you can't claim ownership over a man that you dated for four or five months- Yeah ... two or three years ago, sweetie. Like... Even if, even if he's making you feel some type of way. Right. Even if you are, even if you are feeling some type of way, it's just, like, objectively you do have to take a little bit of responsibility for your feelings. Yeah. And, uh, you'll be better for it. Yeah. It looks- You'll be better for it ... she is better for it. Like, she's, she literally is. She's having her Ariana moment. Yes. She's hosting After Sun. Like, she just won an award at the, an award at the Culture Awards. Yeah. Like, she is do- she's gonna be just fine. That's what I'm saying, right? Back to our- Yeah ... earlier point, everyone involved is going to be okay. They'll be fine. They really will. I mean, I hope that they will. I mean- Yeah ... yeah. I, I just- Professionally, I should say they will. Yeah, professionally, 100%. Yeah. They're, they're, like, everyone, everyone has the bag that they want. Yeah. Um, Amanda might have to actually work for it this time, but, like- that's on her. If she doesn't wanna work for it, that's not anybody else's fault, you know? She can, she can still spin this if she really wants to, I think. I think that's what we should all keep in mind as fans. Yes. They're gonna be okay. And isn't Amanda a trust fund baby? She is, yes. She will, she never has to work. Allegedly, but yes. Yeah. Yeah. She just wants to be famous. Yeah. And, like, she's i- you know, infamous now, but, like- Yeah ... she is, she has money. If you have a trust fund the actual, the bag that you get from reality TV, that's not the thing that you're, like, most worried about, like- Mm-hmm ... for somebody like her. She's worried about, like, having fans and having an audience. She still has, like, a million followers on Instagram, so she's still gonna have what she wants at the end of the day, too, which is an audience. Yeah, and no amount of, like, hating her is gonna change that. Yeah. Uh, 'cause she has the resources to make it so should she ever want to, to dive... Maybe she'll have a, she, maybe she'll have a home renovation show. Uh, uh, oh, God. Very difficult to come up with a name. I'll think of one. Follow me on Threads. Um, okay. Jasmine, thank you so much for coming on finally. I know I've been, like, miserable to schedule with. That is kind of my thing. But, um- No, you're fine. You're fine ... I really appreciate you coming on. Can you please let everybody know where to find you? Yeah, so first of all, this was so fun. Um- Yay ... obviously we talk often offline, but- Yes ... it's really fun to be on your platform and, um, talk with some structure. Yeah. Yeah. So thank you for inviting me on. This was great. And yeah, you guys can all find me. I'm @JHenleyBrown on every platform. Mm-hmm. Um, Threads, I'm very active on, TikTok, Instagram, but YouTube is my baby. Yes. So if you want to see any of the series that I have or engage with some of my long-form content, it's on YouTube. So yeah, @JHenleyBrown everywhere. And guys, you must go see some of her, her YouTube, especially you've made two videos that are kind of not specifically about Summer House, uh, but are in kind of response to Summer House. One was the, uh, segregation of reality television video- Yes ... which I've watched actually three times. I love it. Oh, thank you. Um, and the one that you released, uh, either right before or right after that, I don't know why I'm blanking on the name 'cause I've also watched that one twice. Do you remember what it was about? Also, it was a, it was a, it was a Summer House one. Oh, is it the one, we need to say the quiet part out loud about Sierra and Wes? Yes, yes. Yes. Yes. Yeah, those were- That one ... yeah, those were really fun to do. Thank you for watching though. Yeah. You know girl, I will. Um, all right. Well guys, thank you. Thank you for coming to the show and you know where to follow me at, Who TF Knows Emily Rose on all platforms, and I will talk to you guys later. Bye bye.