Farming for the Future: building resilience through soil and water management - Hannah Barrett, Charlie Ennals, Thomas Gent

In episode 20 of the Defra Farming podcast, guest host Hannah Barrett—a Catchment Sensitive Farming adviser in the East of England—speaks with Norfolk farmer Charlie Ennals and Cambridgeshire farmer Thomas Gent.

Together, they explore how working with nature can help farms become more resilient in the face of changing weather patterns, rising costs and increasing uncertainty.

Charlie shares how gradual changes—such as cover cropping, introducing livestock and improving soil organic matter—have helped her farm retain moisture in dry springs while maintaining productivity. Thomas reflects on nearly two decades of no-till farming, highlighting the role of soil structure, drainage and machinery decisions in reducing costs and improving performance.

They discuss the realities behind these systems, including what hasn’t worked, the importance of patience during transition, and how collaboration—whether sharing machinery or working with neighbours—can help spread risk and reduce costs.

The conversation focuses on practical steps farmers can take, from improving water infiltration and reducing inputs to using data and precision farming tools to make better business decisions.

🔗 Useful links mentioned in this episode:

•  Catchment Sensitive Farming: https://www.farmingadviceservice.org.uk/csf/get-in-touch
  
  
•  Farming for the Future: https://farming.campaign.gov.uk
  
  
•  Defra Farming blog: https://defrafarming.blog.gov.uk

Transcript

00:05

Hannah Barrett, Catchment Sensitive Farming Adviser (host)
Hello and welcome to the Defra Farming podcast. I'm Hannah Barrett, a Catchment Sensitive Farming adviser based in the East of England covering the north Norfolk and north-west Norfolk catchment areas. 

Catchment Sensitive Farming (CSF) provides free, impartial and confidential advice to farmers across England in river catchments to produce food in a way that also reduces water and air pollution, and we also have a focus on natural flood management opportunities across catchments. 

I'm delighted to be a guest host on today's episode, in which we're going to talk about some of the practical steps farmers can take to improve business resilience, particularly through better soil and water management. 

This episode is part of Defra's Farming for the Future campaign, looking at how working with the natural environment can help farms’ productivity, profitability and viability in the long term, we'll be talking about practical steps like improving soil health and adding resource protection measures, things like buffer strips across the farm, and how they can deliver business benefits.

Today, we're joined by two guests who are navigating these very challenges: Charlie Ennals and Thomas Gent. 

Charlie, thank you for joining us today. Could you introduce yourself and a little bit about you and the farm, please? 

Charlie Ennals, farmer and adviser, Norfolk (guest)
Of course. Thanks for having me on. I wear a few different hats, so I support my husband here on his family farm in Norfolk. We're on the Blickling Estate, which is a National Trust estate. His family's been here for three generations.

It's 260 hectares of mostly arable. It's pretty standard Norfolk rotation with wheat, barley, oilseed rape, sugar beet, and a little bit of land let for potatoes as well. And everything that we're doing here is really to try to improve the health of the soil and still produce good quality food with good yields, but whilst reducing inputs as much as possible.

02:00

Other than that, I also work for Wildfarmed as an agricultural relationships manager. So looking after Wildfarmed growers across the east of England. And I do a little bit of farm consultancy as well, helping farmers across Norfolk with agri-environment schemes and running a facilitation fund group, the North Norfolk Coastal Group. 

Hannah
Thank you, Charlie. And we're also joined today by Thomas Gent, who farms at Oakley Farm in Cambridgeshire.

Thomas Gent, farmer, Cambridgeshire (guest)
Hi, everybody. Yeah, I'm Thomas Gent. We farm just in the edge of the Fens and we farm about 800 hectares.

I farm with my dad and my grandad. We moved to a full no-till system in 2008. So we've been doing that for sort of, yeah, 18 years-ish now.

Had lots of difficulties trying to get it to work at the start, but we're very happy with it now and wouldn't go back. Um, and we also have a brand for our farm, which is called Gentlefarming, which we try and do a lot with, which is tricky, but it definitely is part of our resilience of our business, I would say.

And then I also have some other roles outside of the farm, really, because I enjoy kind of connecting with other people and learning a bit more about the wider industry rather than just being focused on my individual farm. 

Hannah
Thank you both. You mentioned building resilience on the farm. How have conditions changed in recent years? 

Thomas
Well, there are a few conditions that have changed. I would put it down in two buckets really. I would put it down in a financial bucket and also a climate bucket. 

So the financial bucket that I've really seen change is obviously the change away from BPS and towards SFI. That's made a big difference. We've had to adapt a lot to that. Mostly admin wise rather than practical farming-wise actually, because we're kind of focused on a lot of these practices anyway. 

03:47 

But the one that we've definitely seen the biggest impact, what I personally see, the biggest impact is climate-wise mostly. Mostly rain, to be honest. Like we've had such wet winters, and because our specific farming situation where our, well, most of our farm is about a meter below sea level, all of the water that lands on our farm has to get pumped twice to get into the sea.

So water is really one of the biggest things that we have to think about on our farm and drainage. So we actually bought a tractor drainer with a neighbour, which, yeah, I mean, it cost a fair bit of money, but obviously spreading that cost with the neighbour was good, and honestly, it's been one of the best investments we've made. We've done a lot with it. And like this year, you can really see where they used to be puddles. We've drained it properly now from our point of view.

Charlie
Even though Thomas and I aren't farming too far away from each other, the land is pretty different. We're on quite light land. So actually the droughts are more of an issue for us.

We have definitely had wetter winters to deal with over the last few years. And it has certainly squeezed timings of operations on the land. But we're quite lucky with the light land really in, in that way.

But then last spring, it obviously just didn't really rain, did it at all, the whole spring. And so we're really seeing that some of the things that we've done in terms of, you know, making sure we have cover crops everywhere, and summer-sown cover crops, and introducing livestock, and all that stuff that is in the sort of regen handbook, to try to boost soil organic matter, is definitely helping to build that resilience in the spring. And yeah, keep the soil functioning even without rainfall.

And one of the things that we've really focused on is getting to know our costs really well and doing some more precision farming in terms of variable rates of fertiliser applications and with drilling as well, so that we can actually use data to inform what needs to happen on those fields so that we're not spending unnecessary money. 

Hannah
Yeah. Thank you both for sharing that. I think it's fair to say then that farming feels a little bit different and less predictable than it once was. 

06:00

Thomas
If you ask my granddad, right. He always says, every year, forever, in his whole life, they've always said, oh, this is going to be the toughest year. And you know, for whatever, you know, whatever variable reason, you know, we are, at the end of the day, dealing with a natural system, and it's never easy. 

But I think we also have to look at that opportunity at the minute. There's so much interest in what we're doing and soils maybe more than it ever has been and nature and stuff like that. So there is opportunity. The thing that I think is really tricky is, you know, the traditional mindset of, don't worry about the outside world, just get the highest yield.

The finance of that doesn't really stack up anymore. So thinking about it in a little bit more of a big picture way is going to be important, which is obviously very different to what we used to, but it also has opportunity. 

Charlie
Yeah, it's a changing landscape, isn't it? Personally, I find it really rewarding to be able to walk out over the fields and see the improvement in wildlife and reduced runoff and all that kind of stuff that comes with this way of farming. But it's not just about that stuff. It also makes sense financially as well.

I guess when we started changing our system probably about ten years or so ago, it was a little, maybe a little bit of a punt, we'd read all the books and we were thinking, well, it seems to make sense, but actually, we haven't gone as far down the road as Thomas with direct-drilling, you know, just making small changes every year and taking every field situation as its own, so not doing unnecessary tillage in any fields and all that kind of thing. Just making sure we have that kind of attention to detail on each situation.

Hannah
Thank you. So would you say, because it sounds like you're both, so Charlie made that switch around ten years ago and then Thomas since 2008, although was that switched to no-till overnight or was it more of a gradual switch?

07:45

Thomas
Like caveat, right. I'm 28, so I was not there. Well, I was there, but I was ten. So I was supposed to be at school. But yeah, so the switch was pretty abrupt. It definitely not what I would recommend to anybody else. And that was quite specific circumstances why we chose to do that, or why granddad and dad chose to do that. But the biggest issue we had at the start was the right machinery.

Nowadays there's a lot more different machinery options available. When we started, it was either ploughs or one direct drill. There wasn't much in the middle, whereas now there's quite a lot of stuff to try and help you in the transition, if that makes sense.

Hannah
Yeah, absolutely. Thank you. So, Charlie, what would you say? Well, for both of you, really, and you both have touched on it, but what were the main drivers then? So we've mentioned the climate and then just wider economic, so whether that's volatility of input costs. But would you say it's just a perfect storm of all of those? 

Charlie
Yeah, I think so. I mean, my background's in ecology. I did environmental science at uni. And luckily my husband, who's actually, you know, doing the physical farming on the ground, is also really keen to leave the land better than what we found. And, you know, we're lucky because it was being farmed very traditionally before, but my father in law and his father before him, it was traditionally farmed, but with quite a high standard. 

So we're starting from a relatively good place, and we're lucky that the different generations on the farm saw eye to eye, and we were allowed to do our bit of experimentation across the farm, fully trusted to do that. And I think, yeah, the way farming was going, I was really involved with a lot of environmental schemes and cluster groups and all that kind of stuff. For a long time, talking to lots of farmers across the country that were doing really interesting things and seeing some really good results.

09:31

And so it just really inspired us to try some of those things ourselves and actually [we] just saw the benefits so quickly, things like cover cropping. At first we dipped our toe and we did single species mixes and we quite liked that. And then before not too long, we were doing multi-species mixes and then grazing them with some cattle, and seeing the multiple benefits that comes from just improving the management of those year on year. And now we certainly wouldn't do anything differently. 

Thomas
I think the tricky thing is we have to think of it a little bit more like a business. And I think traditionally it's been maybe less thought of like that and much more kind of just a production commodity, production process. And in the world nowadays, with the volatility of fertiliser and commodity prices, just focus[ing] on commodities isn't really going to work. So we need to think about a little bit more, how do we do things differently in a farming sense in the field, definitely. But I also think we need to think about, just as much, in our business structure and business transformation as well.

And it's going to become much more important to stack different opportunities on as many opportunities as you can on your farm to be able to survive, as well. And it's, it's quite interesting, right? Because most other traditional businesses, you'd focus on your core product. Whereas farming, our core product is really managing land. And so that often means we have to actually do quite a few different enterprises on that land to be able to make it profitable enough, which is complex and tricky. And it's not a skill that most people are used to having, I think. So it's about exploring all those different opportunities and seeing them as opportunities and not like kind of an annoying hassle. 

11:07

Charlie
Yeah. So, it's interesting seeing the land management as an asset rather than the crop production, whilst obviously the crop production is still really, really important and is the backbone of our farming business and your farming business.

We've done quite a bit of diversification, glamping and renting barns out and DIY livery and all that kind of stuff. And that's just as important as the farming side of things. And that allows us to, I suppose it takes the pressure off a little bit to try to change the system and try things differently because you've got some other income coming in.

And then with the farming side of things, just keeping an open mind of where crops are being sold to. We're growing some spring wheat for Wildfarmed, and that comes with a premium price. It's a different way of doing things, and yeah, it's worked so far, worked really well for our farm because we were going that direction anyway. 

And actually, it's allowed us to take some of the practices on those fields where you're getting a premium price and actually take them onto other crops and it builds your confidence and your experience in reducing nitrogen and adding companion crops and all that kind of stuff. So that's really helped us across the farm as a whole. 

Hannah
Charlie, you mentioned the cover crops that you're doing on farm, so, you know, trying to always have a cover crop there where possible and the switch from a single species mix to now something slightly more diverse. Would you mind telling us a little bit more about the practicalities of that? And I mean, it's quite interesting hearing you saying bringing in the grazing because did that come with its challenges being where you are in the world?

12:39

Charlie
Yeah. The first challenge with grazing livestock in the east of England is finding someone that has livestock. [Laughter] So that's the first thing. 

So I suppose a bit of history of the farm here. My husband's grandfather did once upon a time have a dairy farm here. I think the cows were probably sold about 20 years ago out of necessity. It was a pretty sad decision at the time.

We haven't had our own livestock on the farm since then. We've had the cover crops grazed with sheep over the years, but haven't really focused on that too much.

But in the last few years, some neighbours have some stabiliser cows and they wanted to keep the cows out all winter and were looking for somewhere to put them. And we have quite a big area of cover crops that we were experimenting with different mixes on different fields and we thought, right, let's give that a go then.

So this winter was our third winter of having the cows on the field and we've tried a few different things. So last winter we did the more of a mob grazing system, which was good on the whole, although it was a very wet winter and so if there were like a few days of really heavy rain, and then the cows were all concentrated on a smaller strip of land, we did see some damage in those in those areas. And obviously the idea is to move them as quick as possible, but practically it's not always easy to move them as regularly as they should be moved, especially as, as a farm, we're not particularly well set up for livestock.

So this year we again had a few different mixes to test out. We kind of just set-stocked across the field and just left them on for as long as they needed. So we followed the principle of them eating a third, trampling a third, and then leaving a third.

So it was kind of one of those things where we're like, mm, don't know how long they're going to need to be on there for. But we were able to work really closely with the grazier to, I suppose, communicate what it is that we wanted to get out of them grazing. And obviously they were wanting the feed value. 

But it worked really well helping each other out, and the cover crops being grazed following that third rule, even cover crops that were grazed fairly early, were still in green cover over the whole winter. So that was really positive.

And I definitely noticed an increase in bird activity on the farm over winter because of having the cows there, which is really, really nice to see. Some of the fields that were grazed have now been drilled with sugar beet. There wasn't a load of compaction. So we were able just to do a min-till approach and then drill into that. So that was pretty positive. And the same for the spring barley land as well.

15:16

Hannah
Thank you. Any easier to get livestock in Cambridgeshire, Thomas?

Thomas
[Laughs] We’re on pretty heavy land, right. So we definitely don't want cattle on in the winter, but yeah, sheep is definitely an option.

A big part of our rotation over the last probably five-to-seven years has been grass. So we do grass lays for a local dairy farm, which has been amazing for our rotation, and we have sheep on the grass lays in the winter, which has been really good.

We have tried it a bit on cover crops in the past. We have tried it a bit on grazing rape in the past. Our land is just so heavy, you know, we have to move them every ten minutes. It's hard work. It definitely is possible. I went down the route once of trying to make, can we make a robot fence that moves the sheep around, but I ran out of time. {Laughs] We definitely do see the benefits, but I don't think our land is going to be right for it. 

16:14

Hannah
Yeah, sure. Thank you. And yeah, like Charlie said earlier, farms that aren't actually too far away, but you know, very different in terms of soil type and topography as well. 

Are you noticing then, Charlie, incorporating the cover crops into the farm system now for some years and also now bringing in the livestock as well, you know, what kind of changes are you seeing in the soil? You mentioned slight compaction, but you're finding that out with different grazing techniques and whatnot. So are you noticing changes in soil structure and soil organic matter as well? 

Charlie
Yeah. I mean, just the structure of the soil when you go out and dig a hole and it's really nice, you know, breaks apart nicely. Loads of worms, good water infiltration, all that kind of stuff. We even, you know, throughout these kind of really wet winters we've had, we don't ever have standing water in fields, which is really nice because you drive around the countryside, on similar soil types, and you do see that, so that's been really positive.

We bear all of that in mind with our nitrogen applications as well. And you know, especially at the moment, any way we can reduce nitrogen applications is always a bonus, isn't it. So that's a focus. 

We do put some muck on the land as well. So areas that aren't able to be grazed, we can, we put some farmyard manure and we've got access to some turkey muck as well. So that also helps with building the organic matter, and then also reducing the amount of artificial nitrogen that we have to apply onto the fields as well.

Hannah
Thank you Charlie. So again, alluded to it there slightly, but in terms of some of these practical implementations that you're putting on the farm, have you seen any changes there in input use? So whether that be like you just mentioned, from changing fertilisers, reducing chemical sprays, reducing fuel costs and things like that?

18:12

Charlie
Definitely. Some crops we grow have stipulations that they have lower inputs, like the Wildfarmed spring wheat. But across the board, we're trying to reduce inputs to an optimal level. So, you know, it's not like we're, you know, cutting everything out or anything like that, but it's about making the most of what's available to us without ever applying too much and spending too much money and obviously not having the negative impact on the wider environment as well.

So nitrogen use efficiency is really important to us. We've had most of the farm TerraMapped and so we use variable rate applications as much as possible. SAP testing is a big part of it as well. We do a lot of SAP testing. Send the samples over to Novacrop in the Netherlands, and that does help with identifying what that plant needs to be healthy.

So [the] idea being that it reduces the need for fungicides and things like that. So that's been really useful. And we're trying out a handheld device this year that's a SAP-testing device.

So we'll still send samples off to Novacrop, but compare it against this handheld device to see if that makes things a little bit easier for us. 

Thomas
Yeah. fertiliser, we're definitely fairly down. Variable rate is an interesting one. So we work with a startup, we have a camera on top of the sprayer that scans the crop as we go along and changes the variable rate on the sprayer, the fertiliser application. It’s awesome and it definitely is going to be needed more and more. 

But I think I haven't quite figured out the best way to optimally use it yet, because I don't quite know what's best, right? What the ethos should be. Should we be putting more on the bits that are good because they're going to be the best bits, or should we be putting more on the worst bits to try and get them to catch up, but they never seem to quite catch up as much. So I don't think I've quite figured out my variable rate application ethos yet, but it's definitely going to be important.

20:08

But yeah, nitrogen, we're fairly down. We use a lot of muck from a lot of different sources actually. But yeah, muck is really, really important to us. We've got no insecticide across the whole farm on SFI, so we don't use any insecticides at all. 

Fungicides we’re pretty down, just really bare minimum, and the most of that has come from a good rotation. And also our feed wheats, pretty much all of our feed wheats are blend now, which has made a big difference.

And then, herbicides is always a much trickier one. I can see a world where we use no fungicides, but I just don't see a world of how we're going to get to no herbicides. And I would like there to be one, but I haven't quite figured out exactly how that's possible yet.

Like, there's all of the theory, right, of having like a living mulch clover underscore, all this stuff, which we've got probably like, I don't know, five, ten hectares of experiment trying to do that. But they just, yeah, I hope it's possible. 

Charlie
Yeah, especially in a directorial situation. And yeah, clover can be a fickle beast.

Hannah
Yeah. Every farm is different. You know, every rotation is different. Every year is different. 

You know, for all of the reasons you've mentioned at the beginning. Do you think with the systems and how you're farming now, do you think you'd be able to put a percentage in terms of, you know, reduction? So whether that be for fuel, for fertilisers. You know, Thomas, you just mentioned the insecticide. You've gone to no insecticide across the farm. 

21:31

Thomas
The best way I could probably give it to you is a cost situation. So like I estimate, and when we do some kind of benchmark things, our cost to production is about, let's say between 20 and 30 percent lower than a conventional farming system or a previous system per hectare, you know, cost of production. That's the best figure I can give you. But the biggest element of that is absolutely machinery cost. Machinery is flipping expensive.

And any way we can do to reduce that saves the most cost, you know, whether we kind of tweak at the edges and do a little bit less fungicide application obviously makes a difference and we should do that. But trying to get a tractor off the farm, it's like the biggest cost you can possibly get. So when we went to a direct drill system, we shedded about a thousand horsepower of machinery off the farm that we didn't need anymore. Yeah, that's where all of our, pretty much all of the cost saving is. 

Charlie
Yeah, that's interesting. Yeah, it's making accurate business decisions that are based on as much data and fact as possible rather than gut, which has made the biggest difference.

Especially as tenant farmers, you know, we've got our rent to pay at the end of the year. Those kinds of decisions are more important now than they ever have been before, and so I suppose we feel pretty pleased that we'd already been kind of moving into that way of doing things, really getting to grips with the real nitty gritty of the cost of each operation.

And then, all the way through to gross margins of each crop and how we run the business as a whole. Some of that is identifying the areas that are the best for farming and then identifying the areas that are the best for delivering for nature. I think that has helped us with our overall gross margin per hectare across the farm.

Hannah
Yeah. Thank you. So, Thomas, a big part of that cost then relating to machinery. And thank you both for being very honest in your answers there. And I guess you've been doing it now for numerous years. So I think you're probably well versed with those challenges, aren't you?

But would you say that there's certain things that you've tried that just, you know, haven't worked as expected or things that took a little bit longer for you to see benefit from but are worth sticking with? And again, I appreciate every farm is different, and, you know, it will be very individual.

23:48

Thomas
Yeah, I would actually be surprised if anything that I've tried worked how I would expect it to be. [Laughter]

Hannah
Yeah. No. Very fair. 

Thomas
I think the biggest lesson that I have is, patience is really, really tricky, because we obviously have, like you said, we have financial pressures on a yearly basis where we have to pay rent and things like that. But the problem is, the soil, once it gets to a good state, it is honestly amazing, but it does take a lot of patience and time for it to get there and to rebuild. And that that kind of gap of waiting is definitely the kind of the trickiest bit. And, you know, there's lots of issues with that transitional period. 

But yeah, I think picking out a specific thing, like our most important thing is, as I kind of said before, is water. And like anything we can do to drain this land in a right way and a nicer way, in a better way, and also in a bit of a cheaper way, is really essential. And that's where we've definitely seen the most benefit. 

I would also say, when we first went to no-till we went really cold turkey, we were probably five-to-eight years of just literally only no-till. And that was not a good thing to do. So like, doing, I don't know what you call it, remedial work in specific fields or corners, or even just parts of a field, is pretty essential. But having the right machinery to do that is really important.

And then I think just one more thing I really wanted to add is on the machinery point, we talked about how expensive it is, and I think we are going to have to get into a position where farmers collaborate on machinery spend way more than we ever have done. You know, I love driving a combine, but I flipping hate looking at it all winter. We need to be able to share these costs a bit better across farms. And I think they do that quite well in different countries. But we need to learn how to do that here.

Charlie
Yeah, that's a good point. And probably I suppose with some cluster groups that might be starting to happen, just that sort of collaboration element. Farmers are quite good, I suppose, at working next to each other for years and years and years, but not necessarily talking about those kinds of things that might actually really benefit both their businesses. 

26:11

Hannah
Yeah. Thank you. Charlie. I've seen them, clusters sharing bits of kit, but not a combine yet, so you never know. [Laughter]

Thomas, you mentioned, water being very important. And I guess, Charlie, where you are as well, you're in the River Bure catchment, which for us is a high priority catchment for water quality, and all of the measures that you've mentioned throughout today, they're all things that you're doing to help protect watercourses and water. 

Just in terms of water resource as a whole, how would you say in terms of the climate challenges you mentioned at the beginning and in linking that into water, so how is water moving differently across the farm? Is it moving differently across the farm now with these things that you're starting to do differently? 

Thomas
Yeah, I always categorise the rainfall now as more lumpy. So we used to get it quite evenly spread through the year and in a nice, predictable way. But now in the winter there's too much and in the summer there's not enough. And that's just how it is. 

And so we need to be better at managing those two situations, and definitely the soil, when you let it be, is really good at managing those two situations. You know, like last, was it last summer when it was really dry? You could drive around the area and you could see which fields were ours because they were just staying green that little bit longer and it made a massive difference. Obviously that makes a massive difference to yields in June time, but our biggest issue definitely is wet patches and puddles.

And so, investing in this drainer with a neighbour, I think if we'd done it on our own, we wouldn't have bought such a nice one and we wouldn't have got the cart to go with it and things like that. So doing it with the neighbour has been amazing, and it also allows us to do it in quite…, you know, we don't have to do whole fields, right? We can just do specific puddles, specific areas that we need to, to drain them properly. We did a lot last winter, and now if you drive around you, you can't really find many puddles anymore, which is awesome. So that's been the biggest game changer to water moving around our farm definitely. 

28:10

Charlie
Yeah I'd say we have. Yeah, the opposite problem. Certainly the cover crops help during the winter, just, you know, drawing the water into the soil and holding it there because inevitably we're going to need as much in the soil as possible in the spring. 

We did infiltration tests on two neighbouring fields. One of the fields had been min-till for, I think, five years. And when we did the infiltration test, the water just sunk away really quickly. 

The other field had been potatoes the year before, and that one didn't have the same infiltration rate. We kind of gave up after 20 minutes. You're like, oh, it's not behaving like the other field. But for us, they're an important part of the rotation and a good income as well. And where the potatoes are grown, the fields are pretty flat there, we don't have a big problem with runoff. We didn't think it was really right to completely remove them from the rotation. 

So instead we try to take those remedial actions across the whole rotation. We work closely with our neighbours who are growing potatoes, who also grow a cover crop beforehand.

And they know what we're trying to achieve in our farm, and they're working with us to try to reduce the impact of that crop within the wider rotation. So it's complex. Are you doing the right thing because you've got potatoes and some sugarbeet as well in the rotation? But they're important crops in this part of the world. So it's about managing it and trying to grow those crops in the best way possible. 

Hannah
Yeah, absolutely. Thank you. I think it comes back to earlier when we're thinking about agri-environment options, you know, right crop, right option in the right place. 

Just as we wrap up towards the end of the podcast, thinking of the farm in the future and just looking forward, what are a couple of things, or maybe just one thing, that you'd both like to try out on the farm or achieve going forward?

29:53

Charlie
Just to be able to continue to shift the dial and make more changes, to see what the limit is of reducing inputs and that kind of thing, but whilst still producing, you know, good quality, fairly decent yielding crops, alongside other diversification ideas we have for the farm as well. 

Thomas
I think the most important thing for us really is focusing on stacking the different opportunities better, and making sure that we're aware of different opportunities that are available. Like there's so many different opportunities that are available now that I think people are maybe not even aware of, like there's Adopt [innovation] funding and loads of different things. So making sure we're maximising everything that we could be maximising, I think is the most important thing. 

Hannah
Thank you both for coming on today. It's been a really good conversation and, you know, hearing the very different challenges that you've got, but also the different things that you've embraced across both farms, which are yeah, again, not too far away, but very different. 

Charlie
Thank you very much for having me on. It's been a really interesting conversation.

Thomas
Yeah. Me too. Thanks for the conversation.Super interesting. And good luck everybody this year. 

Hannah
So thank you both Charlie and Thomas for joining us today.

I learned a lot drawing on both of your experiences. So very different farm types, different rotations and very different soil. What I'm going to be taking away is just reinforcing that.

Charlie mentioned earlier, you know, data is absolutely key and looking at the right options in the right place. So whether we can incorporate some of those soil and water management opportunities. 

31:21

Ultimately in CSF Catchment Sensitive Farming, what we're trying to do is to help farms produce food whilst reducing pollution to water and air. A lot of our work is really about looking at practical changes on-farm that not only benefit the environment, but also make sense for the farm business.

It is a free offer, voluntary as well and confidential. The way that we work with farmers is a one-to-one advice visits, often over a long period of time. It could be anything, helping a farmer with slurry calculations and manure management, to looking at ways in a field where we could identify soil health opportunities and improvements.

So helping a farmer with some small scale soil sampling and water infiltration tests and earthworm counts and things like that, even designing for a pesticide handling area, but all the way as well, through to reducing ammonia emissions on farm and using water more efficiently as well. It really does depend on the farm. 

If you'd like to get in touch with your local Catchment Sensitive Farming team and adviser, please click the link in the episode description. 

To find out more about practical steps as a farmer that you can take to improve resilience and business performance, particularly through better soil and water management, have a look at the Defra Farming for the Future site at farming.campaign.gov.uk. 

There you'll find a range of tips and farmer case studies featuring Charlie and the Suffolk arable farmer Patrick Barker too. 

If you'd like to subscribe to the Defra Farming Podcast, you can find us wherever you usually get your podcasts.

Thank you for listening.