Episode 25--Life in a Blended Family with Lisa Barnholdt

In today's episode, Billy and Brian sit down with Lisa Barnholdt to discuss navigating life in a blended family.   

If you want to learn more about how to foster a loving blended family, check out the books referenced by Lisa in today's episode: 

--The Smart Step-Family by Ron Deal
--Becoming a Step-Family: Patterns of Development in Remarried Families by Patricia L. Papernow

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Transcript

Thank you for taking the time to listen to The Mindful Midlife Crisis podcast. We hope you enjoy this week’s episode. If this episode resonates with you, please share it with your family and friends. We will do our best to put out new content every Wednesday to get you over the midweek hump. If you want episodes to be downloaded automatically to your phone each week, all you need to do is hit the checkmark, Subscribe, Like, or Follow button, depending on what podcast format you’re using. While you’re at it, feel free to leave our show a quick five-star review with a few kind words so more people like you can easily find our show. If you’re really enjoying the show and you want to help us out, feel free to make a donation to www.buymeacoffee.com/MMCpodcast. You can also access the link in our show notes. We use the money from these donations to pay whatever expenses we incur from producing the show, but, ultimately, we record this show for you so if you keep listening, we’ll keep recording and releasing new episodes each week regardless. If you’d like to contact us or if you have suggestions about what you’d like us to discuss on future episodes, feel free to email us at mindfulmidlifecrisis@gmail.com or follow us on Instagram at @Mindful_Midlife_Crisis. Be sure to check out the show notes for links to the articles and resources we referenced throughout the show. Thanks again for listening. May you feel happy, healthy, and loved. Enjoy the show.

Welcome to The Mindful Midlife Crisis, a podcast for people navigating the complexities and possibilities of life second half. Join your hosts, Billy and Brian, a couple of average dudes who will serve as your armchair life coaches as we share our life experiences, both the good and the bad, in an effort to help us all better understand how we can enjoy and make the most of the life we have left to live in a more meaningful way. Take a deep breath, embrace the present, and journey with us through The Mindful Midlife Crisis.

Billy: Welcome to The Mindful Midlife Crisis. I’m your host, Billy, and, as always, I’m joined by my good friend, Brian on the Bass. Brian, how you doing over there, man?

Brian: I’m wondrous today, Billy. 

Billy: Oh, you just got back from Vegas.

Brian: I did. I’m full of wonder because of it. 

Billy: What were you doing in Vegas? 

Brian: Tradeshow.

Billy: Tradeshow? What were you trading?

Brian: First live trade — I was just selling AV stuff to casinos.

Billy: Not baseball cards?

Brian: Not baseball cards. No, I don’t sell baseball cards. Can you make a lot of money in baseball cards?

Billy: You cannot if you collected them in the 80s because there are so many cards in circulation that they’re worth about pennies.

Brian: Oh really? There’s no expensive cards from the 80s or 90s?

Billy: There are. They’re very rare, but you can’t really find — like your basic card is worth literally pennies. 

Brian: Wow. 

Billy: So I have hundreds of pennies in my basement.

Brian: Wow. You have like $10.

Billy: Yes, that is a lot of disgusting chewing gum that I had growing up back in the day.

Brian: Yeah, I can still taste and smell it in my nose right now.

Billy: The chalk. It just tasted like chalk is all it did. Vegas is one of your favorite spots. It’s not one of, it is your favorite city. Why is Vegas so special to you?

Brian: Well, I got married there, first off. We had a destination wedding in Vegas. We rented the Paris Ballroom and did the whole Paris bit and we had about 120 people out there. And we had Elvis come. We had Eddie who’s in a bunch of movies, he was in a movie with Jennifer Lopez and stuff, Eddie was our Elvis so we had Elvis come in and sing and then we did the dinner on one side of the ballroom and then there was a dance floor in the middle and then we had a gaming company come in and set up all the tables so people could gamble and get the full Vegas experience without having to shell out their own money. So it was pretty fun. People still, the people that were at our wedding, are like, “When are you doing it again?”

Billy: Oh, cool.

Brian: Which Cathleen and I have made plans to renew our vows in 2028 in Las Vegas so we’re throwing a huge party.

Billy: Will that be your 20 year? 

Brian: Yes. 

Billy: Excellent. That sounds like a lot of fun. All right. So it has a sentimental place in your heart.

Brian: Plus, I mean, they just shove everything in your face all the time. You want food? You want this? You want that? It’s all there. Entertainment? It’s there.

Billy: You’re a stimulation guy.

Brian: I totally am. 

Billy: You love stimulation so Vegas is a great city for you. 

Brian: That’s exactly it.

Billy: Our guest today actually got back from an adventure and we’ll let her talk about that. Our guest today is Lisa Barnholdt. She is an assistant principal in one of the local area high schools here in the great state of Minnesota. She is going to talk to us about blended families because she is a mom to a 19-year-old and she’s a stepmom to an 18- and 16-year-old but just refers to herself as a mom to those children. So, Lisa, thank you very much for being here. Why don’t you tell our listeners where did you just get back from?

Lisa: Well, we were on a cruise.

Billy: Where did your cruise take you?

Lisa: It went to the Caribbean so we were in the Dominican Republic, we were in the Bahamas, I guess. Just those two places.

Billy: And Lisa is really one of the very few people I would know who actually likes to go on cruises during the summer because Minnesota summers are not hot enough for her.

Lisa: And you know what, here’s the thing. It was cooler on the cruise than it was here.

Billy: It is very, very hot here and imagine it was very, very hot in Vegas.

Brian: It was. It was miserable in Vegas. It was 112 and stuff.

Billy: But is that miserable? I don’t mind hot weather. I really don’t. 

Lisa: It’s a dry heat.

Brian: It’s dry. Yeah, it’s not. Just to give you an idea, I went and laid out in the sun, no sunscreen, I did 10 minutes on each side and I got a very slight pink. The UV index was 10.2 that day. So that means not only do you get the sun, but you get the sun reflecting off of crap on you. That’s why it’s a 10.2 and not just a 10.

Billy: Oh, wow. 

Brian: Right.

Billy: Wow. My birthday is in August, your birthday is in August too —

Brian: Yeah, we’re pretty close birthday buddies. 

Billy: Actually, we have the big meat sweat birthday lunch coming up here before too long with all our August buddy friends. 

Brian: Yes, we do. 

Billy: But we did my 30th birthday out in Vegas and we made damn sure that we got a really good pool. So we went to Mandalay Bay for my 30th so they got a great pool there. But enough about us so let’s get back to our lovely guest here, Lisa. Lisa, we always ask our guests what are 10 roles that you play in your life so what are your 10 roles?

Lisa: So I said mom, stepmom, wife, and now I’m kind of rethinking that my husband’s going to listen and he’s going to go, “I’m number three,” but whatever. Daughter. Sorry, Michael. Assistant principal, a runner. I’m a lover of music, lots of different kinds. I love the Foo Fighters but I will also — I don’t know, I like everything except for country. Sorry, Blaine. I’m a lover of sun, summer, and convertibles and vacationer. See? Just got back. And I’m a collector of all things fashion so I love shoes, I love purses, I love everything, vintage bags, lots of things. 

Billy: Yes. And so Lisa and I used to work together and I, to this day, do not believe I’ve ever seen Lisa wear the same shoes two days in a row or a week in a row. How many shoes you have, Lisa?

Lisa: Over 200, I think. I don’t count because then it sounds like — then you would know if new ones came in and old ones didn’t leave. 

Brian: Okay.

Lisa: That was the rule. After I met my husband, he said, “Okay, if you’re gonna bring more in, then when you bring a pair in, a pair has to leave.” So that’s why I don’t count.

Billy: And so do you have a Carrie Bradshaw-sized closet just for your shoes?

Lisa: We have this walk-in closet and along the one whole side of our walk-in closet, my husband’s built this shelf thing unit kind of thing that holds all the shoes, and they’re all in their boxes and they all have pictures on the outside so I can quickly go in and like navigate which shoe I want.

Billy: Oh, so you have a system —

Lisa: Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. You have to know like where, and then I have them categorized, like here’s all my dress shoes, here’s all my sandals, here’s all my school shoes.

Brian: Have you considered implementing the Dewey Decimal System? Just to really keep them straight. 

Lisa: Not a bad idea. 

Brian: Dress shoes start at 800.3, 800.2.

Billy: That’s a good system.

Lisa: Would be.

Billy: The structured organizer in me really likes that, Brian, and now can I come over and organize your shoes —

Lisa: I know. I should have you start a spreadsheet for my shoes.

Billy: Yes, I would love that. Audience, I wish you knew how much I love spreadsheets. I love a good spreadsheet. So, anyway, we also have our guests talk about the three that they’re looking forward to the most in the second half of their life and so let’s start with assistant principal because you just got this job, that’s why you and I no longer work with each other because you think you’re big time.

Lisa: Not yet. No, no, I haven’t been big time for long enough. I still am at that dean’s desk, I feel like —

Billy: Oh, okay, got it. Got it. 

Lisa: No. So, yeah, principal. It’s an exciting new position. I feel like I’ve worked for it and tried for it for a really long time and I’m super happy I finally got where I wanted to be. Well, almost. I really want to lead my own building and be in an elementary school.

Billy: So you talked about you’ve been waiting a long time so I know the pain of this process and I think it’s actually valuable for you to share this story with our listeners because, give us a rough estimate. Here we go, here’s the question. Do you have more shoes or did you make it to the finalist round more?

Lisa: Good question. I actually have more shoes, thank God, but, no, it took me a long time, many years, four years, I think, of interviewing, and I was the finalist I think for 14 different jobs.

Brian: Holy cow. 

Lisa: Well, but there’s always one or two or maybe sometimes three finalists and I just could not seal the deal. So who knows why. I always just had to look at it as like, okay, it isn’t meant to be, it’s not my space, it’s not my time, and then just hope for the best later. Finally. Finally, I made it.

Billy: And there was a situation where you were offered a principal position but you didn’t choose it because there were just so many other extenuating factors. Can you talk a little bit about that?

Lisa: Yeah, totally. I did get one and then I, in some ways, I regretted not taking it. It was far from my house, which I think is funny because that’s what I’m doing now, it’s far from my house, but the money wasn’t there. It was a small town school. It would have been a great opportunity, I just couldn’t afford it. I was like, “This is not gonna work for me this time.”

Billy: And it was actually a pay cut.

Lisa: Oh, it would have been huge pay cut from where we were working. Yes. 

Billy: Right.

Lisa: Yeah. 

Brian: Which when you’re in the education industry, already your wages are too low.

Lisa: Right, and then to be a leader in the building and take a pay cut from a job where I knew I could just go home if I wanted to, yeah, just didn’t seem worth it.

Billy: So during that process, how do you not give up? How do you stay? How do you keep the momentum? How do you say, “All right, let’s get back on this horse”?

Lisa: Yeah, that’s almost impossible. I feel like every time I do it, I’d be like, “Oh, God, here we go,” and I would always joke, “I’m the bridesmaid. Got it again, I’m another bridesmaid, I’m never the bride.” I would just always have to say like, “All right, gotta try it one more time,” and you know what, the people around me kept encouraging me, like, “You’re gonna do this, you will find the right space and place, you’re awesome, just do this, keep going,” and so I was like, “All right, fine,” and I would start all over again. But I got to tell you, those job applications, if you’re applying for a regular job, they don’t have all this information that they need from you. These education jobs, the applications take hours.

Brian: I bet they do. I mean, they need to know a lot of stuff, like is it the background screening or what is it that’s so intensive? 

Lisa: No, it’s like all these essays and questions that they’re asking.

Billy: They want to your philosophy on education, your philosophy on leadership, your philosophy on inequity —

Brian: So they can dissect and see if it aligns with the way they want it to go down. Yeah, sure.

Lisa: Yeah, because each job that you interview for or apply for, they get like 150 applicants so you got to be able to pull yourself out, and that’s why I always felt good because at least I was towards the end but just couldn’t seal it. So it’s another piece about being in the midlife area. I feel like that’s my other maybe issue with it is I wasn’t young enough, like I waited too long in my life to want to be an educational leader and people probably think, “Well, she doesn’t have that much longer to actually be around and make decisions and make changes.”

Billy: But that’s interesting because I feel like most of the leadership that I have worked with were in their 40s or 50s and that’s where they got their job was right around that timeframe in their life. But where we work, we have two really young ones too and two people who were around our age or maybe a little bit older, that sort of thing. But they didn’t necessarily start —

Lisa: Right now, right? 

Billy: Yeah, right now, yeah. 

Lisa: If you think about those people who are our age, they started a while ago —

Billy: Ten, fifteen years ago, yeah. 

Lisa: So I think there is something to be said about moving in your career while you’re younger and not waiting like I did, but that kind of leads into how I got where I was because I wouldn’t have gotten and decided to be a principal have I not experienced this whole loss of my first husband because I wouldn’t have wanted it.

Billy: Now when you finally agreed to take this new associate principal job, you needed to be talked into it.

Lisa: Yes, I needed my team. You guys have listened to Billy talk about being a dean at a large school, a metro area school, and he was my partner and so there were four of us and my principal told me, “I think you’re gonna get offered this position and you need to decide before he calls if you’re gonna take it,” and then Billy was watching my principal talk to me in a very intense way and he’s like, “Come here, come here. What are you talking about? I need to know. What are you talking about?” So I was like, “Well, here’s the story,” because I didn’t want to tell people I was applying for a job again because every time I did it, I didn’t get the job. So, anyway, so we all powwowed and everybody’s like, “If he offers this, you take it,” and I was like, “It’s a risk,” because it was an interim job, I didn’t know I was going to be able to keep it, and they were all like, “Take it, take it,” and so there were a few people at where we worked that were like, “Don’t do it. It’s a huge risk. Don’t do it.” But I took the risk and it paid off.

Billy: And you’re very happy where you are. 

Lisa: Yep, I love where I’m at. Great school.

Billy: I think that’s kind of when you bet on yourself and it pays off, that’s such an amazingly rewarding feeling.

Lisa: Yeah, much better than having to be in the unemployment line. 

Billy: Agreed. Agreed. So you also said that you’re most looking forward to being a wife, even though you listed it third. 

Lisa: I will say when you asked about the top three, wife came first —

Billy: Right, that’s very true. That is very true. So talk about what is it that you’re looking forward to with your partner, Michael?

Lisa: You know what, I think just the change in life, because, again, we’re getting older, our kids are growing up, and I think there is a real interesting thing about when your kids transition from young adults or teens to young adults and then even to adults, it becomes this new relationship. I think that’ll be awesome. I think it’d be great for us to be on our own. We’ve always been really good at like dating and hanging out with each other but now, it’s a little scary because it’ll just be two of us in the house and so I think there might be a few tears in August, maybe not by Michael but…

Billy: So what grade is your youngest going into?

Lisa: He’s going to be a junior this year.

Billy: He’s going to be a junior so you just got two years left and then you’re empty nesters.

Lisa: Two years and then, yeah.

Brian: I’m so jealous. As a parent of a four-year-old, I’m like, “Oh, God, that sounds so nice.”

Lisa: I remember that when they were little. Yes, yes. But it’s weird. It’s weird because you start to feel like, “Oh, no, they’re gonna be gone,” but then I’m really looking forward to like them coming back and then extending our family. Do they get married? Do they have kids? That makes me a grandma, like that’s crazy, but those are the things that I think are going to be really cool about having older kids.

Billy: Do you and Michael talk about future plans of what you’re going to do when the kids are gone? Like do you have places you want to go visit? Do you have things that you want to do? Do you want to move? What do you talk about?

Lisa: Not really. I know he knows that I am really looking to be a leader of my own building so that might require a move. Right now, I’m driving 60 miles each way to get to my job, but if I decide I’m going to move, we’ll move. We like where we live and we just — I don’t know, it’s weird. We don’t have plans. That makes us sound like we’re really, I don’t know, like not thinking it through, but I just think you just roll with it.

Billy: I think you sound content.

Lisa: Yeah, pretty much. Pretty much. We’re good with where we’re at.

Billy: Would you take a principalship out of state?

Lisa: No. You know what, as much as I would love to live in a warmer climate, our kids are here and that’s the problem. If you leave, then you don’t see your kids and you don’t see their families and I’m too much of a family person. Our kids are making us trapped. 

Brian: I’m failing to see the downside of all the moving. Sorry, again, it’s that four-year-old thing.

Billy: I’m just saying, you guys, these kids sound like a trap. Man, am I glad I don’t have any.

Brian: There was a child sitting on my forehead at 5:30 this morning. He climbs in bed and I’m like there’s a shoe on my forehead.

Lisa: Is this the four-year-old? 

Brian: Oh, yeah. 

Lisa: Yeah. You know, people used to say to me, they’re like, “Oh, you don’t know the terrible threes.” The terrible threes are okay compared to the fucking fours.

Brian: Oh, my gosh, yeah. No doubt. No doubt. He’s in full swing right now. 

Lisa: So I was like, “Oh, I can’t wait ’til four comes around.”

Billy: Oh, that is beautiful. So well delivered right there. And I feel like that’s a perfect segue to what are you looking forward to most and being a mom and a stepmom? 

Lisa: That’s a good question. No, I like I said, I’m just looking forward to just being there for our kids and really watching them figure out who they are. Our kids are getting old enough now. When they’re little kids, you’re worried about their sports and you’re taking them places. Now, it’s like, “Who do you wanna be?” and I’m watching my oldest go through it right now, he’s like he has a plan but now he keeps modifying it slightly so it’ll be interesting to see what ends up happening.

Billy: Well, that’s part of the reason why you’re here today so you can kind of talk about how this blended family came to be. So, we’re going to take a quick break and then when we come back, we will continue talking to Lisa Barnholdt. Thank you for listening to The Mindful Midlife Crisis. 

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If you’re listening somewhere safe and quiet, close your eyes and slowly inhale for four, three, two, one. Hold for seven, six, five, four, three, two, one. Slowly exhale for eight, seven, six, five, four, three, two, one. Let’s do that one more time. Inhale for four, three, two, one. Hold for seven, six, five, four, three, two, one. Slowly exhale for eight, seven, six, five, four, three, two, one. Go ahead and open your eyes. You feel better? We certainly hope so. And now, back to the show.

Billy: Welcome back to The Mindful Midlife Crisis. We are here again with Lisa Barnholdt. We actually interviewed her last week or two weeks ago and, for whatever reason, that episode didn’t save so here we are again reliving the same conversation, but it’s been a fun one. Actually, I think even more fun so far.

Brian: Well, we’ve had a rehearsal, Billy. It better be.

Lisa: Totally true.

Billy: It’s always better the second time around. All right, so, Lisa, we brought you here because we feel like people who listen to this podcast probably have some experience or know people who have an experience with blended families. So you volunteered to be on here, you’re like, “Hello, I know what it’s all about to have a blended family,” so here you are talking about how your blended family came to be. So, by the sounds of things, it seems like you had maybe an interesting divorce proceeding and experience so what are some details of that marriage and the eventual fallout of that marriage that you’re willing to share? 

Lisa: You know, I got married really young and we were married for 20 years. Well —

Billy: How old were you when you got married?

Lisa: I was 20 so I wasn’t even of legal drinking age when I got married.

Billy: So you’re in college?

Lisa: I was in college, yeah. We were both in college and we knew each other, we were high school sweethearts, so we have that — well, I, I should not say we, I should say I had that dream of like, “Here’s my person and I’ll be with him for the rest of my life.” So we were married almost 20 years, 19 years and 11 months, and one night in December right before Christmas, I woke up in the middle of the night and I had had these feelings and they were just nagging me and I woke up my husband, I shook him awake, and I asked him a question, and with the response to that question, I was like, “Uh oh, I think I’m not gonna be married much longer,” and so he left that day, well, the next morning and that was pretty much it. We went to counseling. Counselor was like, “Yeah, you know, I can’t counsel you.” And I was like, “Wait, isn’t that your job?” He’s like, “Yeah, no, he doesn’t want to be married to you so like this is not gonna work.”

Billy: And just so people know, I know what the question is and I also know what the answer is, but just out of respect, we’re not going to go that direction, because I know people are like, “Well, what was the question?” but just out of respect, we’re not going to ask that question right now. So why did the therapist say he doesn’t want to be married to you any longer?

Lisa: Yeah, so the therapist was asking us questions about like, “How do you see yourself when you come home? Where do you see yourself in a week? Where do you see yourself in two weeks? Tell us about your average day three weeks from now,” and my husband couldn’t picture it. And he said, “Right then and there, that’s him showing that he can’t picture a future with you at all and he’s already been checked out,” and he’s like, “I think he’s been checked out for a while and you just didn’t know it. You finally recognized it and were able to say something and then that’s what hit the domino effect.”

Billy: How long do you think you had this feeling before you finally asked the question?

Lisa: Wow. Probably like two years. 

Billy: Oh, wow. 

Brian: And it kept — it would ebb and flow and then there was that last year, probably the last three months, I was like, “I’m just not feeling really good right now. I just feel like something’s not right.” but you know what, I was like, “Okay, this isn’t gonna work,” and he left and, I don’t even know, really, we moved forward but we had to start moving forward in different directions.

Billy: So for that year and a half, do you think you were in denial? Do you think you were in paranoia? Why not approach the question earlier?

Lisa: I think you just — well, a couple things. I was really hesitant to start a family with my husband because I came from a home of divorced family so I was hesitant to start a family because I didn’t want to end up divorced. So when I kind of had this feeling, I would like brush it off and be like, “Yeah, yeah, no, that’s just me. I’m just like overreacting nonsense. No, it’s just me.” So I just kind of ignored it and, I don’t know, maybe buried my head in the sand. I think I was told that I was living in a fantasy world, I think is what I was told. And in the end, I think about it and I’m like, yeah, I probably was.

Billy: So how old were you when you had your first child?

Lisa: Thirty-two or thirty-three so, yeah.

Billy: Okay. So you’ve been married for 12 years.

Lisa: Yep, 10 — well, my plan was, I have this plan I’d be married for 10 years and then we would have a baby so that I felt like 10 years was that magical number. You get to 10 and all is good. I don’t know why I thought that. I’ve been married, right now, actually, next week, I’ll be married 10 years. I do not feel that way right now. Sorry, Michael. I mean, I don’t mean it that way but I know that that’s not the magical number. There is no magical number.

Billy: It’s just as long as you continue to enjoy being around that person.

Brian: I know a guy who was married 27 years and went on a golfing outing for work, a three day out of state, came back to a note on his table. “Hey, I left.” Had no previous discussions, like it was just, oh, one day, everything’s fine, the next day, it’s not. And you just look at that and like, oh, my goodness.

Lisa: Yep. And that’s kind of what it was like —

Brian: Yeah, I’m not suggesting that one way or another is any easier.

Billy: So you’re going through this process and the therapist is telling you he doesn’t want to be with you. Are you still in denial or are you like, “Okay, fine. This is time to end”?

Lisa: No, I was totally in denial and I was — my dad kept coming up. He didn’t live here and he kept coming up to try to help me figure this out. My husband wasn’t living at home, I was by myself with my seven-year-old or six-year-old at the time, and my dad would come in up to like help around the house. And it was a bone of a contention between the two of us. And one night, we got into a shouting match with one another because I said, “Well, when he comes back,” and my dad looked at me and he goes, “How many times do I have to tell you he’s not fucking coming back?” and he was shouting at me and it sounds super insensitive. Again, my dad is the most sensitive person you’ve ever met but he was so frustrated because he knew that I was like in total denial. And he’s never seen me that way, I’ve always been pretty strong, pretty determined on things, and, yeah, he was like, “No, it’s just not happening.” So then I was like, I think even then, I mean, I tried to listen to him, but even that I was like in the back of my mind, I was thinking, “I think this could still work.” Meanwhile, I was falling apart. I was super depressed. I was clinically depressed. Did not want to get out of bed, could hardly make it through the day without crying, but I knew I have this six-year-old and I just had to keep moving. So I was like, “I gotta get up every day. I gotta go to work because I need my job. I can’t lose my job at this point.” So there was a lot of stuff during that time that just kept happening that really kept me going, at least a little, and then other things that I saw happening to my husband that really kept me going.

Billy: Okay, so talk about that.

Lisa: Well, you know, I went one direction and I was clinically depressed and sad but I still kept moving. He went a different direction and really was trying to figure out who he was and I think that’s that that midlife crisis and I don’t know if — and I said this about me, I don’t know who I was without him and I kind of think the same thing, like he didn’t know who he was without me. I think he knew who he wanted to be and it wasn’t who he was with me.

Billy: It almost sounds like hell hath no fury like an Italian woman scorned right here. So you used a half marathon as motivation to pick up the pieces, correct? 

Lisa: Pretty much. So this happened in December, I wallowed, really wallowed in December, January, February, and then March, spring break came, and you know with spring how everything starts over again, you start to feel different, and so I was like, “God, I have got to get better,” and so I went back to running, which I always did. My husband and I, we always ran a half marathon in May, first weekend in May, always, and I thought, “You know what, he’s gonna do it probably because we’re both registered and I’m gonna do it too, only this time, I’m gonna beat him,” because I really wanted to feel like I had control. And he was always a better runner than me, always faster, and I was like, “Yep, no, I’m on this.” And so I was like, okay, and it was the metaphor for my life moving forward. I started the run, I was like, “I feel good. I’ve got this,” trained really for only two months to get in shape to do this and then saw him at mile 11, he was still ahead of me, and I was like, “This is awesome. I’m gonna go past them,” and I did and I felt great and I was like, “Now, I can kick, like now I can really go. I got two more miles left, I am gonna fly,” and I passed him and as I passed him, I never looked at him, I just kept moving forward. And I thought that’s my life now. I’m going to take control. I’m going to move forward.

Brian: What a great metaphor, and the fact that you used a goal setting as a coping tool, it sounds like. So that helped get you out of that funk that you were in, that’s amazing. 

Lisa: Well, and the endorphins from running, like that’ll change your life.

Brian: And I’d like to point out, it’s a positive goal, not, “I’m gonna drink 48 beers,” or something like that in a sitting.

Lisa: Yeah.

Billy: When you’re used to that emotion that had built up over that time, I imagine as a catharsis that propelled you to the finish line ahead of him. 

Lisa: Totally, totally. 

Billy: And I feel like we all have the ability to take the emotions that exist within us and I guess synthesize them into —

Brian: Motivation.

Billy: Into motivation, yeah, just into a boost where we can do great things. Or we can allow them to destroy us and melt us away into a pile and so I commend you for being able to do that. Now, were you still living in Wisconsin at this time?

Lisa: No. We lived here. We had, again, in my fantasy world, we built a house here, a house that we designed, custom designed, and it was it was going to be our forever home so we moved into that when my son was one and we were living here. Yeah. The marathon was around Lake Minnetonka.

Billy: Oh, there you go. So you not only used that half marathon as a motivation but it sounds like that’s when you went back to school, you got your master’s, you did your Ed specialist so you could become a principal. What was the motivation behind that then? Because with the marathon, you can visually see him and visually pass him, what was it that you wanted to accomplish professionally with this new motivation that was within you? 

Lisa: Yeah. Now, it just goes back to what I felt like when we were married, that family life was my number one priority in my life and it really wasn’t what my career was. And I knew, I mean, I kind of wanted to do other stuff but I was okay with just being a teacher. And there is absolutely nothing wrong with being a teacher. I probably could have done it for forever but I knew if I was going to rely on myself for my own income, for my own, I don’t know, wellbeing, I needed more. And so I did. I was like, “Okay, now it’s time for me.” I have spent the last 20 years moving states multiple times with my husband and his position and his job and so I would quit a job and I’d move with him and I was like, “You know what, now it’s time for me. I know what I wanna do, I’m gonna move forward.” So I did that. It took some time and I finally got there but it was about finding out who I was without him.

Billy: I applaud your patience and your perseverance through all of that, just because I know, we talked about it in the first segment about — because it’s been, what? Fifteen, sixteen years in pursuing that, correct?

Lisa: Ten.

Billy: Ten years? Okay.

Lisa: Yeah, probably 10.

Billy: Yeah, and I mean, that is a poker game right there where you are playing the long game to the end. So, again, I applaud you for that. One of the big challenges that divorced families face is custody and parenting styles and holidays and dating, that sort of thing, so what were some of the challenges that you and your ex-husband faced?

Lisa: Yeah. I feel like we were smart in the fact that we took advice from our parents, and our parents, my parents, said, “Have everything in writing. Get your lawyers to work out the holidays, get your lawyers to work out parenting time, get your lawyers to work out everything. That way, there’s no fighting about it later.” So we did. We were like — I mean, and together, we had to mediate with each other like, “Okay, yeah, you can have him on Christmas Eve, I’m gonna keep him on Christmas Day. We can rotate every Thanksgiving. You’ll claim him on the even years for income tax, I’ll claim them on the odd,” so we had all that stuff written down. And I would recommend anybody going through that, like even if you do it yourself, just get it in writing, because then it’s there and it’s part of the your agreement and then there’s nothing to fight about. Whereas I feel like now I’m in this blended family and my husband and his ex-wife, they didn’t have that agreement, they didn’t get it in writing, and I have to tell you, it’s probably been one of the most difficult things that we have had navigated as a family. Just the holidays and who gets what and who’s taking care of this, when you’re moving kids, like all those things.

Billy: So how did the two of you parent and co-parent separately and what was that like? Because a lot of times, just being someone who 43, almost 44 and the dating pool is filled with single moms, so a lot of times what they’ll say is, “They go to dad’s every other weekend and it’s like camp over there and then they come back and then I have to regulate the kid and get them back into a routine,” that sort of thing. Is that what it was like? What was the arrangement? 

Lisa: Yeah, yeah. So we didn’t want it to be he would have to go spend half of his time at his dad’s during the week and then the other half with me so weekends were just with dad, week was with me. It really was interesting because, in some ways, I had to have the heavier lift because I had him during the school week so we had a lot of school stuff to do and maybe not as much fun things to do, but it worked out because it was real stable for him. Again, I think it was just a good choice. And you were talking about your friend and how it’s like camp over there and then they come home. I think I’ve read so much about it, it is like living in two different countries. So imagine going to a foreign country Monday and then going to a different foreign country on Wednesday. Different rules, different customs, different regulations, all those things, and so you just have to be really aware of it. And when my son would come home, I would just give him time and space and let him acclimate back to my space and his area.

Billy: Was he good about that or did you need to coach him a little bit on it? Because I know your son, he’s amazing, and I imagined that he transitioned very easily, but when he was younger, would he come in with bad habits? And even though you needed to give him that space, were you kind of maybe hovering a little bit and being like, “Okay, what’s he gonna do?”? 

Lisa: I don’t think so. He was young, which really helped. And he knew, “Hey, this is mom’s house, this is dad’s house. Here’s what happens here, here’s what happens there.” We were really good at making sure he had space in place in each home, clothes at each house so that he didn’t have to worry about lugging his stuff back and forth. When he was little, he had a little stuffed animal that kind of would go from house to house but that was all he had to bring. And he was really easy with that. He was super flexible.

Billy: How far apart did you and your ex-husband live?

Lisa: Well, probably about 25 miles, maybe 30, because he lived in the uptown area.

Billy: I bet that made it a little bit easier just because then you didn’t have to see him all the time or you run — I mean, if you got divorced in my hometown where you lived, like there’s a 99 percent chance that you’re going to run into your ex somewhere. 

Lisa: Yeah, no, we really had our own little spaces and places, our own communities that were really different, and I still go back to the different countries. Billy, you know, uptown compared to where I live, which is really more country like, so even my son had this very different experience from space to space. He was in a real urban setting when he went to dad’s house. He was in a more country kind of, suburban setting when he came home.

Billy: So at some point, you started dating, so I think what we’ll do is we’re going to take a break and then when we come back, Lisa is going to tell the story about how she met her now husband and how her family became a blended family. Thank you for listening to The Mindful Midlife Crisis. 

Thanks for listening to The Mindful Midlife Crisis. We will do our best to put out new content every Wednesday to help get you over the midweek hump. If you’d like to contact us or if you have suggestions about what you’d like us to discuss, feel free to email us at mindfulmidlifecrisis@gmail.com or follow us on Instagram at @Mindful_Midlife_Crisis. Check out the show notes for links to the articles and resources we reference throughout the show. Oh, and don’t forget to show yourself some love every now and then too. And now, back to the show.

Billy: Welcome back to The Mindful Midlife Crisis. We are here with our good friend Lisa Barnholdt. She is —

Brian: Wondrous. Oh, no, never mind. Sorry. Wrong segment. Keep going, keep going.

Lisa: See, Brian’s still in Vegas and on vacation. 

Billy: You’re back. You are in your office, dude. You’re back. 

Brian: Oh, yeah. Sorry. Sorry, man. Okay. Keep going.

Lisa: Put your change away, you’re not at those machines anymore.

Billy: So Lisa is here, she’s talking about her blended family and so now we want to know about how did you meet your now husband, Michael? Let’s take it all the way back here, just walk us through the whole dating experience so even before you met Michael, how did the dating experience go for you? So you are how old when you started dating again?

Lisa: Forty, or forty-one maybe at that point. And, oh, boy, you’re like, “Ooh, okay, how’s this gonna go?” And the thing was, is all my friends, all of them were married couples, so they would go out and like I started to not get invites, because I don’t know why, they didn’t want me to tag along, and so it was okay, I was like, “All right, now I gotta find some new people.” I don’t know. I made the mistake one night of going to a bar by myself. No, that was a really bad idea. I mean, I had a good time but did I meet anybody my age? No, no, no, no, no. So didn’t really work out that way.

Brian: You could have just settled on two 20-year-olds. 

Lisa: Well, there’s a whole ’nother story about a 25-year-old but I’m not going there.

Brian: Oh, sounds like an off air story. Looking forward to hearing that one and then I’ll tell everybody next week. 

Lisa: Not so much. 

Billy: So what were your dating experiences like leading up to before you met Michael?

Lisa: So, basically, after that very bad bar incident and another, like I said, foray with some 20-something-year-old, I decided I was going to sign up to do an online dating service and I was like, “Oh, I don’t know,” so I fill out the profile, I do it, but I don’t commit. I don’t put in that $120, because I’m like, “I don’t know.”

Billy: This must have been for Match.

Lisa: It was. I just didn’t want to create an advertisement for Match.

Billy: No, that’s all right. We’ll take advertisements from match.com or Bumble or Hinge or Tinder or…

Lisa: Well, at the time, Match was the only thing around. There wasn’t Bumble, there wasn’t — it was just Match. So, anyway, so I did Match and I didn’t sign up right away but they keep sending you these emails that say, “Hey, somebody’s looking at you, somebody’s commented, somebody sent you an email,” and so it was a Saturday night, my son was with his dad, my friends, couple friends, all went out, and I was like, “Damn, I’m by myself.” So I sat down and I was like, “Screw it. Here’s my credit card, 120 bucks, it’s gonna be worth a laugh,” and I got to tell you, I sat there, I will never forget how hard I laughed because guys are so stupid.

Brian: Oh, God, we’re dumb. We are dumb as shit.

Lisa: They’re opening lines suck. Or they think they’re really, really smart and they’re just not.

Billy: What are some memorable opening lines? Because we had dating coach Sally Kathryn on earlier and she shared some of the dos and don’ts with these as well. So what are the don’ts for you?

Lisa: Well, the don’ts really are, especially on Match, don’t take a picture with a fish. Because, for me, I’m just not interested in that. Like you’re standing there with your shirt off and you got this big fish, great, awesome. Now there might be some people who are really attracted to that but that wasn’t doing it don’t for me. The other thing is is like some guy is like, “Hey, wanna go on the back of my bike this weekend? I think you’ll look really cute.” I was like, seriously, what the heck? And then there were some that were really obscene and I was like, “Whoa, are they not screening these people?” I was like, “What the hell?”

Brian: No, you’re out there with all of them. Every single one of them.

Lisa: I know. And then somebody quoted, I think it was something from a song and it was obscene. But then I was like, “Well, this is — I’m kind of intrigued by this guy,” because at least he had a sense of humor. 

Billy: Was it a 2 Live Crew song?

Lisa: No. I think it might — I wish I could remember. I think it might have been a Bodine song. But it was, yeah, interesting. So I was like, okay, but he sparked my interest, and actually ended up to be really a friend of mine who then introduced me to a whole group of girlfriends, a whole new group of girlfriends. So, in the end, his little ridiculous comment actually kind of worked.

Billy: So that’s interesting because I have made a lot of female friends through dating apps, just women that maybe we went out on a couple of dates or something like that but then we just realized, “You know, there isn’t a romantic connection here but you’re really cool so let’s continue to hang out,” and through them, I have met a network of friends. So there is something to be said that dating apps can become like friendship apps, they can become network apps.

Lisa: Well, and I also have to say, though, at the time, the Match community was pretty small in my age group. So, if I had dated one person, actually, when I met my husband, he’s like, “You dated him?” and I was like, “How do you know him?” he’s like, “Because I dated this girl who dated him,” so it was a small community of the people who were my age.

Billy: Oh, I get a kick out of when I go out and if I’m at a restaurant or something like that or if I’m at the fireworks dock, which I know fireworks were this past weekend, and it was like, “Oh, seen her on Match. I’ve seen her on Bumble. I’ve seen her on Hinge. Messaged her. We matched but we never met,” like that happens all the time. 

Brian: I feel like I’m missing out with these apps. I have never ever been on a hookup or dating app. Ever.

Lisa: Yeah, it’s an adventure. It is an adventure, I will tell you. I don’t know if I like it but it was an adventure. 

Brian: Yeah, I think I can skip it. 

Lisa: I know, and it’s really rough in your 40s to try that.

Brian: Oh, God, I’ve heard. I’ve had other friends who have divorced around that time and they said it’s like jumping into a bunch of needles. They said it’s horrible. Anyway.

Billy: All right, so you have a series of bad dates with people or just obscene messages and then you finally get one from this guy named Michael. So what is it about his message that captures your attention?

Lisa: Yeah. Well, Michael, interestingly enough, Billy, because you and I both connect on the English front, we’re both English people, and, first of all, Michael’s email didn’t have any capital letters or periods and so I probably should have been like put off by it. 

Billy: Red flag.

Lisa: Red flag. He didn’t capitalize the word “I,” but he said, I think his opening line was like, “My daughter is in first grade and if her first grade teacher looked like you, I would make up more reasons to talk about her progress.” 

Billy: Nice. 

Lisa: And it made me giggle and I thought, “You know what, that’s a pretty good one,” like he’s connecting things. So I always had these rules like before I would meet a guy, I’d have to correspond so many times, just to make sure, because I didn’t do that one time and I ended up at a restaurant and I had to figure out how to quickly leave.

Brian: Oh, no.

Billy: You need — okay, wait, tell that story. Why did you need the exit strategy so quickly?

Lisa: I think this person was just a little, actually, more than a little off. They were really off. They were humming the whole time, hmmm, and I was like, “What is happening?” It was so unusual.

Billy: Did they take their shirt off and show you the fish that they caught at the restaurant —

Lisa: No, no, no, but they did have on a wool sweater that kind of smelled like strong wool. So the whole thing was really bad and I quickly went to the bathroom and told my friend, “Give me a call, I have to leave.” So you make up all these exit strategies, which is awesome. So, Michael’s email was just kind of cute and we went back and forth and what was interesting about our emails back and forth is I would write them in the morning before I left for school and then he would not respond until the middle of the day, because he, at the time, was staying up during the day — or he had the opposite schedule, he was working at night and then sleeping during part of the day. So I would be like, “Oh, the glamorous life of a school teacher, I’m busy in the morning, I’m writing back,” and he would respond at like two in the morning and I’d be like —

Billy: Oh, wow.

Lisa: He was up late. He was up late. So, anyway, so that was our thing and then we corresponded a bunch of times and then he asked me if I wanted to go on a date on the Wednesday before Thanksgiving and I was like, “Sure, yeah, that sounds great.” And then I get an email the next day that says, “Well, so I kind of made a mistake and I had already asked somebody else out for that day and so how do you feel about just meeting me later?” I was like, “Well, at least he’s upfront and honest,” and he’s like, “I didn’t think she would say yes, and then, at that point, I was really excited to meet you,” and blah, blah, blah, so I was like, “All right, yeah, fine,” I’m like, “I’ll meet you at eight o’clock,” and I said, “It’s okay,” because when I interview, I always wanted to be the last one in so I can seal the deal. 

Billy: Oh, there you go. Good strategy. Good strategy.

Lisa: Yeah. And then the best part was is Tuesday, that Tuesday, he called me on the phone and I was like, “Hey,” and I have never heard his voice before and he’s like, “Hey, I was just driving to Rochester to hang out with a friend and I thought I would call and see what you were up to.” I was like, “Oh, I’m going out with girlfriends,” I really wasn’t, I was going on to date, and I kind of figured he was going on a date too, because that’s what you do when you’re on Match, you just date. You date when you have free time. And so, at the end of my date, which was a quick one, I texted him and I was like, “Hey, how’d your date go?” and he’s like, “Sucked. How was yours?” and so right then I was like, okay, our humor kind of fits and so then the next day, we met and we just hit it off.

Billy: So how does that relationship then grow to the point where you’re like, “Okay, we’re dating, we’re exclusive. You have kids, I have kids,” how do you navigate your dating schedule so the two of you can hang out with each other while you have your kids? And, obviously, it’s when you have time to get away but if you have younger kids, it’s really difficult.

Lisa: Yeah. And I had a rule, like I wasn’t going to tell Blaine I was even dating. He didn’t know about it. And I just kept it separate. But he was like — his kids were littler so I think maybe they didn’t worry about it as much. Plus, they weren’t always around with him on the weekends so that was okay so we kind of lived our weekend lives, I guess, and hung out and then corresponded during the week and talked on the phone but then we waited a while until we introduced the kids and then even when we did, we were like, “Oh, this is my friend, Michael,” and Blaine’s like, “Yeah. Okay.” It’s weird because you know that they’ve never seen you with anybody else except their dad. And so I was trying to be super protective. I don’t think Michael was as worried about it. He, like I said, he had been divorced longer and his kids I think were maybe more younger and flexible. I don’t know. I think it could just be his personality too. He’s just way more flexible.

Billy: So do you think that there’s a right time to introduce the person that you’re dating to your children? How do you know? What was your thought process going through that?

Lisa: Yeah, I didn’t introduce him ever as my boyfriend, I’m quoting my fingers here, just as a friend, and when we brought the kids together, we were like, “Hey, we’re just gonna hang out,” and I think we went to a museum. We just went and did something fun for the day but I don’t know, I just feel like, at the time, I knew when it was going to be okay. And you kind of have to take the cues from your kids and when they got together, how did they interact with one another? And how did they see you? And I think you just really have to be cautious about what you’re doing because, again, you are bringing someone else in, another adult into this relationship, into this world of your kids. So that’s always really tricky. I think.

Billy: So did Blaine meet Michael first or did Blaine meet Michael and his kids all at the same time? 

Lisa: Oh, yeah, no, that’s great question. No, we did it as like, “Let’s just hang out as a family,” So, “Hey, I have a friend Michael and his kids are gonna hang out with him this weekend. We’re gonna go to the museum, let’s go do that.” And it was good because it gave us an opportunity to interact on like a friendly basis and they could meet each other and hang out and it was something to do. I feel like we just had to slowly kind of put them together to see how it would go and who knew, at that point, we didn’t know, we didn’t know that we were going to be together for 10 years at that point. It was just an experiment. But kids are kids and they just hang out with anybody.

Billy: And then do you feel like your kids were all intuitive and were like, “These two are more than friends”?

Lisa: I think when I finally told Blaine, “Hey, I think Michael might be like my boyfriend.” He’s like, “Yeah, duh.” So I think they knew it, because I think you’re like, I don’t know, I was trying to think, when we first went out on our date, like we wouldn’t hold hands or touch each other or things, but then after you start hanging out with the kids and each other, you do. You end up — you’re touching each other and the kids are probably like, “Yeah, I got it now.” So it’s really hard. It’s that navigating and knowing if it’s okay for them. You just have to take your cues from your kids.

Billy: So then how do you explain that we’re getting married?

Lisa: Yeah, that’s a great question. Well, at that point, we had been together for a while and then Michael and I moved in together before we actually got married so then there was that whole piece. So now we’re already blending a family before we’re really even finishing the deal. At this point, it’s like, “Okay, is this gonna work?”

Billy: And did they get along? Did the kids get along? 

Lisa: Yeah, pretty much. They were, again, it’s that coming from two countries and now we’re coming from, we’ve got three countries that we’re putting together, because you got the kids from their mom’s house, my son, his dad, and so you’ve got this whole big, what I call a family forest. It’s not a family tree anymore, it becomes this family forest that you’re trying to put together. So we moved in together. We were like, “Okay, let’s just see how this goes.” The kids got along great, like they probably did a better job navigating this whole situation than the two of us did, because we were, again, really novice at it and we’re like, “What are we gonna do? And what do we do when the oldest says something that we know is not okay, who’s gonna get jump in and who’s gonna take care of it? What are we gonna do when the youngest has a meltdown? Who’s gonna navigate that?” So there was lots of those pieces to try to figure out.

Billy: So then how do you step parent without overstepping the line? 

Lisa: Yep, that’s the hardest piece. So, I went out and researched a lot and read a lot of really good books. I read The Smart Stepfamily, that was huge for me, and, basically, they talk about, “Hey, if you are the bio parent, you are in charge of the discipline. You are in charge of navigating your child, and then the co-parent at that point, you have to support one another but you take the back seat,” because what you’re trying to do is you’re trying to build a relationship with this child and if you’re going to start being the heavy and start doing discipline, they will never trust you. Never. And so it’s really hard. You have to try to navigate because you’re trying to be a friend but you don’t want to overstep your bounds and then when something goes out of line, then you have to step back. You have to work really hard at biting your tongue and not getting in the middle of it, letting the bio parent navigate the situation.

Billy: Do the kids ever play the two of you against each other? Like his kids going to you and then you’re saying, “Yeah, go ahead,” or is your response, “What did your dad say?”?

Lisa: Well, ours is, so our front is, “What did your dad say? What does Lisa say?” but, yeah, Michael sometimes would be like — you know, our daughter would be like, “Can we have a sleepover? Can I bring from friends over?” and he’d be like, “I don’t know, let me ask Lisa,” like that was — and I’d be like, “Don’t do that to me. You just threw me under the bus.” But the other piece that’s really hard is, again, you’ve got the other parent involved so there are four parents now involved with these children and so the other parents are ones who make different decisions. It’s that living in a different country. And so I think that’s always the hard piece. We struggled with that even this year with our daughter. She’d asked her mom, because she knew her mom would say yes, and then her dad would say no and then she would still just go, “Well, Mom says I can,” and they move forward. And then me as the stepparent, that is really hard because I usually line up with her dad and so now the two of us really line up with each other because that’s kind of how you’re supposed to back each other up and then we’ve got her making decisions with someone else. So it’s really hard. It’s super hard to navigate.

Billy: I do find it interesting that you will say “my daughter and my son” when you’re talking about Michael’s children. So, can you talk about why you feel so comfortable saying that or why you don’t say, “That’s my stepdaughter, that’s my stepson”?

Lisa: Yeah, the only time I ever say it is one time, we were at a hair salon and the two kids were sitting, my daughter and my son were sitting next to each other and they were talking about their birthdays and they’re like, “Yeah, we’re only 11 months apart,” and the ladies were like, “Ooh,” and I’m like, “Oh, wait, wait. She’s my stepdaughter.” But I don’t know, I just feel like if you are going to bring kids into your life that aren’t yours, you have to accept them for who they are and you have to assign yourself a role. I always see them as my kids. When we buy Christmas gifts, we make sure that we spend the same amount of money on all three kids. It’s all the same. When we do something together, we’re not going to do it without all three. And so I just — I also think, though, we also managed to know that it was important to spend your own time with your own kid and we manage time for that too. So we definitely make time to just do things with our own families. 

Brian: And was that a recommendation of the book or…

Lisa: It was.

Billy: And that book is by Ron L. Deal

Lisa: Yep. And he did, he recommended that, like you make sure that you spend some time with that bio family and that kid so that they just still have that feeling of importance. Because what happens is, and I don’t know if this is a good thing or a bad thing but it happens all the time, when you get into fights or arguments, your arguments fall on that biological side. So, even if the argument is between myself and my stepdaughter, let’s say, my husband will always side with the stepdaughter and then my son sides with me, his son sides with him, so whenever there’s conflict, it automatically happens, and that’s part of research too is this is where it comes from.

Billy: And we will link those books in the show notes, just like we do with all our resources. Your holidays, how do those look now that you’re married and is it similar to what it was when you first got divorced? How has it changed? What does it look like now?

Lisa: Yeah, no, holidays are always a disaster and, usually — well, I wouldn’t say they’re a disaster. I would say that they’re really tricky to navigate because I have my agreement, I know that I’m always going to have my son on Christmas Day. Michael’s family, his ex said, “No, you will not have the kids on Christmas Day, I will always have them Christmas Eve into Christmas Day,” so we had to make our own holidays. And so when the kids were younger and we had group gifts and how are we going to celebrate this? So we made our own Santa letters and Santa came a day early. He came on the night of the 23rd and we celebrate Christmas on Christmas Eve morning and we’ve done that ever since the kids were little. We continue to still do that. And so you just make your own way. At first, it felt really awkward and it felt kind of, I don’t know, maybe I was put out by it, but then it was like, well, it’s really what’s in the best interests of the kids so we’re going to navigate it that way. And they think it’s great because the kids are like, “Ooh, five Christmases.”

Billy: I get two Thanksgivings because my sister and her ex-husband have an arrangement where my niece and nephew go with my ex-brother-in-law on Thanksgiving and then we celebrate Thanksgiving on Friday so I always make it a point to go to a friend’s house on Thanksgiving, eat up all their food, and then drive to my dad’s house and eat up all his food because his turkey is phenomenal. My mom and dad got divorced, I think when I was like, I don’t know, like 26 or something like that and I feel fortunate because those two get along and we just do all of our holidays at my dad’s house. My mom is there, that sort of thing, like we don’t have that kind of conflict. Now, I think it’s a little easier because we were all older, I’m the youngest at 26, and it wasn’t as much of a conflict. I do remember, my college girlfriend who listens to the show and is still a very good friend of mine, when I was dating her, we did Christmas Eve, at my parent’s place in Sauk Centre and then woke up at the butt crack of dawn so we could drive to her dad’s house and be there by eight o’clock so we could open gifts with her dad and his wife at the time and stepfamily and then we would go to her stepmom’s mom’s house and they would open gifts at around noon but they wouldn’t eat until five. Yeah…and, yeah. So I was not a fan of that and communicated that and I believe that her stepmom’s family dubbed me the Grinch because that’s not how I Christmased at all. And then, we had Christmas at her mom’s and then Christmas at her mom’s family so that was one, two, three, four, five Christmases that I had, and only one of them pertained to me. That was a lot of Christmases, a lot of family time, and I’m not like a huge sit around with the family kind of person.

Lisa: Yeah. And I know you and if they’re abstaining from food, that’s a problem. That’s a problem. Anyone who knows Billy, if he is hungry, you just get out of the way.

Billy: Well, and the other thing too is when they would open up gifts, there were 30 people there, you would do two circles of opening gifts. So I would open the gift and I’d show it to everybody and then the next person would open the gift and show it —

Brian: I hate those, man. I hate ’em. 

Billy: So then you did that, but then all the little kids are there so then they have to open and show all theirs. Oh my goodness, it was a lot. So, when she started dating her now husband, I asked her, I’m like, “Do you make your husband do all that stuff?” and she’s like, “No, I learned from you.” I was like, “Oh, good. I’m glad that he doesn’t have to go through that.”

Brian: He owes you one, man.

Billy: Nate, if you’re listening, you are very welcome. So we talked a little bit about you think of your stepchildren as your own and we talked a little bit about that delicate line about replacing the biological parent.

Lisa: Yep. Yeah, and I can I think that’s — you always have to be careful with that. My daughter had graduated this year and she came over to my house, I don’t know, like in March. She’s like, “Help me plan my grad party.” I was like, “I think you want your mom to help you with that,” and she’s like, “No, no, my mom’s okay with you planning it,” and I was like, “I don’t know about that. I can give you some ideas and then why don’t you go talk about it to your mom,” because I think you, again, have to remember you are the step in the relationship and so just know your boundaries. It also puts you in many awkward positions where sometimes you get left behind and you have to have this strong thick skin to be able to just know like, “Okay, I’m gonna roll with it today.” There was an incident at my daughter’s graduation and she’s excited and everybody’s taking photos and they’re snapping pictures and her mom’s there and her dad’s there and grandma’s there and everybody’s taking photos and like I didn’t get a chance to get a photo with her. And I was like, man, I’ve been part of her life since she was a first grader. But I have to be okay with that, and I wasn’t, I was hurt, I left, I was feeling really sad, and then I looked at my husband and he’s like, “What is wrong?” because I have tears coming down my face. I’m like, “I didn’t get a picture,” and he didn’t know it either. So it’s not like you’re intentionally pushed aside but you just have to be aware that there’s going to be times where it’s going to happen, where you’re the step and you just got to know, like, okay. In my daughter’s defense, she didn’t think about it and then we go to her grad party and I look at her photo wall and her photo wall, she had so many photos of our family, the five of us, so she didn’t do it intentionally, I know that, I know she thinks of — and my kids, they introduce each other as, “This is my brother Jack, this is my brother Blaine,” like they don’t say step. They never have, which is also super interesting. I think when we got married, we made that a part of our wedding ceremony is I took Michael and he took me but then we took all of each other, so stood there and made a family pact.

Billy: You have a cute story about the day that you got married.

Lisa: Yeah, my son gave me away because I was like, “Okay, you’re the most important man in my life right now and you get to give me and walk me down the aisle,” so he did, he walked me down the aisle and he was, I think, going into fourth grade at the time and so he walks me down the aisle and Ella was the flower girl and Jack was the ring bearer who almost lost the rings, because he’s still little, but we’re standing there and the person who’s marrying us is giving some speech and I look over at my son and my son is in tears, and it’s my favorite photo of our wedding because he is like covering up his face because he’s so emotional about it and I just think that that really goes to show how important it was for him to see me happy, because he knew me as an unhappy person and managed to watch what was going on, I think and — well, I hope that’s what he was thinking, but he was and I think my mom said to him afterwards, “Why were you crying?” he’s like, “I’m just so happy.” 

Billy: That’s so sweet. So we’ll get you out on this. What’s some advice that you have received or that you want to share with blended families out there who are listening to this episode?

Lisa: Yeah. So I already talked about the one book and then I drew a blank on the second one. The second one’s called Becoming a Stepfamily and I can’t remember who the author is, we can look it up, but they really talk about trying to think about blending a family is like a crackpot. When cooking something in the crock pot, it’s got to cook long, and it’s got to cook slow —

Billy: Blended family sound delicious. 

Lisa: Right? 

Brian: It really do.

Lisa: But one of the things to know is that I think she talks about that it takes at least four years for a blended family to really get together and some as long as 10. So your first two years are going to be rough, really rough. And the thing is is I don’t know what makes you continue on, you have to know if this is important enough for you to go through it. Because it’s going to be a long haul until you all feel like you’ve cooked long and slow enough to be a family unit.

Billy: When do you think you became a family unit?

Lisa: Gosh, that’s a really great question. I think maybe year five. I think it took us a while. Our kids were older. The research shows that the younger they are, the easier it is to put them together —

Brian: That follows logic. 

Lisa: Yeah. And I think some of — and end even now, I’ll be honest, we still have those days where it’s like, “Oh my gosh, is this really gonna work?” But I think about year five, we started to really figure it out, and one of those things was probably around that time is when we really started working on family trips and times where we would pull everybody together. They were always together, we were always doing things, Fourth of July, I mean, our family was big on the Fourth of July, my family is or like our blended family, so every year, we did the same thing. We go to the same parade, we’d wear matching shirts, we would do the same thing, so we tried to establish our own holidays and traditions within our blended family. I think that’s also super important. Again, if you think about when you’re cooking in a crockpot, you got to add little spice and little things. So we established stuff that would be just for us. We got a dog, which, Billy, I know you — right? I know, you’re into the dog thing. But if you think about it then, it’s another piece where it’s all ours. I also think it’s super important in Becoming a Stepfamily and in Ron Deal’s book, they talk about the kids having their own space and place at each home and having their own things at each home. So our kids really had their own clothes at each house, their own space in each house, because we really wanted them to feel like this was their space and place that they belonged. So that’s the other piece. I think that’s super important. I would reach out to people you know. Look for support groups. I had a friend who was going through the same thing and, oh, sometimes I would have to call her and I’d be like, “Oh my gosh,” because we both were experiencing the same things, and there were times, and she’s an Italian as well, so there were times where we would both lose our shit. And then we could talk each other down and remember that, in the end, and this I think I mentioned in our first one when we did first take out of this, that what’s really the most important, what has to be the most important thing is your relationship with your husband. And that is probably the hardest piece. Everybody and every book I read says the number one relationship has to be your relationship that you establish with your husband and then the kids are a part of that. But if you think about a regular husband and wife relationship, you have that relationship first before you have kids. So you have to remember that and when things go wrong, that’s the hardest piece to remember because it’s so much easier to side with your kid and then push away your spouse, and that’s a piece you’ve got to work on. 

Brian: This is perfect. I got to ask you guys a question while we’re on the way out here. Are you guys, speaking of blended families, it goes right along, are you guys as excited Bennifer is back together as I am?

Lisa: That’s a whole ’nother story.

Billy: I don’t know, I kind of liked the J.Lo and Arod combination there. Does J.Lo have kids?

Lisa: They did. They had a blended family situation. They were all working out during COVID on their lawn, I’m sure they had a personal trainer who was there helping them, but, yeah.

Billy: Very interesting. And I’m glad, for your sake, Brian —

Brian: Thank you. 

Billy: — that Bennifer —

Brian: Yeah, I mean, that was keeping me up, I’m like, “Are they ever gonna get back together? No. What’s she doing?” And now they’re back together. 

Lisa: Right. Well, and I — Billy, we talked about because when you were looking for someone to do this segment, you posted a picture of the Brady Bunch and you were like, “Is anyone out there who’s living this?” and I’m like, “I am but it is not the Brady Bunch.” It is not. It is not easy. It is not like putting Carol and Mike together and all is happy. It’s just not. No. Because I always wondered where was Carol’s husband and where was Mike’s wife and why weren’t they creating chaos within this nuclear family?

Brian: They actually should have wrote those guys on to the show. That would have been a better show, maybe.

Billy: Well, they were widow and widowers, that’s why.

Lisa: Right, and so, that’s probably what made their life so much easier.

Billy: Wow, with that mic drop, I think we’re going to wrap up our show. Oh, man, you sincerely better hope nothing happens to any of your exes.

Lisa: I was just going to say the same thing —

Billy: Oh, my goodness gracious.

Lisa: — no offence to any of the exes that are out there. Not mine, not anybody else’s. I’m just saying when you don’t have another person in there.

Billy: This is going to end up being like one of those Dateline episodes where somebody —

Lisa: And she said it on a podcast.

Billy: She suggested it and I liked the idea so I just went and ran with it because it made life a lot easier for me and my kids. Oh, my goodness gracious.

Lisa: No, no, no, that would not be the advice that was given out in the books.

Billy: Right. We’re advising against this even though this came up during the advice section of the podcast. We are advising against doing that. Please do not do that. But thank you, Lisa, very much for sharing your story with us. We really, really appreciate having you on the show. For Brian, for Lisa, this is Billy, thank you for listening to The Mindful Midlife Crisis. Season 3 starts next week. Brian, what’s it going to be?

Brian: Wondrous, Billy. Wondrous.

Lisa: May you all feel happy, healthy, and loved. Take care, friends.