American Towing and Recovery Institute onThe Go
American Towing and Recovery Institute onThe Go
Consolidation in Towing: Building The Future. Special Interview with Mike Lampert
The towing industry stands at a crossroads of tradition and transformation, and Mike Lampert is leading the way forward. In this revealing conversation, the CEO of New England Truck Center shares his remarkable journey from a family business handling a single truck tow monthly to orchestrating over 100 calls daily across multiple locations in the Northeast.
Lampert pulls back the curtain on how consolidation is reshaping towing operations, creating something the industry has historically lacked: genuine career paths. "I feel like this industry has to mature to a place where operators are looked at with respect," he explains, comparing his vision to how utility linemen are viewed—professionals with benefits, retirement plans, and sustainable schedules.
Through partnerships with private equity firms, Lampert has executed a strategic growth plan that benefits both business owners and employees. For owners, it offers financial security without personal guarantees looming over every equipment purchase. For workers, it creates advancement opportunities beyond the glass ceiling typically found in family-owned operations.
The conversation delves into practical advice for those considering selling their businesses: invest in quality systems, maintain clean financials, and work with specialized professionals. "You get paid a lot more by making sure it's on the books," Lampert advises, addressing the industry's cash-handling reputation head-on.
As New England's only NRC dealer, Lampert also discusses how his company builds and sells approximately 66 trucks annually, including the "Swiss Army knife" 40TB models that combine heavy transport capabilities with towing versatility.
Whether you're a towing professional curious about industry evolution, a business owner contemplating your future, or simply fascinated by how traditional services modernize, this episode offers rare insights into a transformation happening right before our eyes. Ready to see where the road leads next?
Welcome one and all to the American Towing Recovery Institute podcast. I want to remind all of you that the American Towing Recovery Institute aims to promote professionalism, safety and education within the towing and recovery industry. Remember, we provide training and certification programs for towing operators. We also advocate for industry standards and best practices, support research and develop all new techniques, including research and development of electric and alternative fuel vehicles With extensive research with the EV Clever app, available now on Apple and Google Play stores. Foster cooperation among industry stakeholders.
Speaker 2:Please, if you need to contact us. We're always at wwwamtowri.
Speaker 1:G. Now here is Tully News. Now, DJ. As always, I appreciate your kind words and very humbling. Thank you so much. Today we have a new guest on the program. We've talked about their organization before in the Consolidated Corner segment of our program.
Speaker 2:Someone that I've not known well but known for years I've known him and his father both we have Mike Lambert from New England Truck Center.
Speaker 1:Mike, welcome to the program. Would you introduce yourself to our guest, please? Sure, thanks, wes. My name is Mike Lambert. I'm CEO of New England Truck Center up in New Hampshire and now Maine. I've been in the industry almost 26 years now Kind of a long time for a job. I promised I'd only do for one winter, but that's how this goes right, yeah absolutely. Family businesses.
Speaker 1:You get tricked into it. Yeah, it absolutely happens. I thought it was a family business. Yeah, it absolutely happens. I was going to say I thought it was a family business. Well, I know at least one generation. Are you the second generation or the third generation? Third generation Okay.
Speaker 1:So officially incorporated, I think in 1974, but they were there a long time before that. It evolved over the years. When I came on board in August of 99, I think if we did one truck tow a month that was like a big month. We've changed a lot. I think these days we're running north of 100 calls a day, a lot different than what it used to be.
Speaker 2:That is a big difference.
Speaker 1:Now you say 100 calls a day. Tell us a little bit about your organization. So we're primarily heavy-duty tow transport, road service, we offer shop services and we're also an NRC dealer for the New England region. So we sell, we build and sell in probably about 66 trucks a year. Give or take a few. It's about the max that we can do without going to a bigger facility. And we've been looking to expand. We partnered up with some private equity for the financing and off to the races, I guess. Expand we partnered up with some private equity for the financing and off to the races, I guess.
Speaker 2:Well, as I've said many times in this program, I think consolidation is good for the Done correctly.
Speaker 1:I think it's good for the industry and good for the people participating. Well, I've always said for years to the people closest to me, it's. I feel like this industry has to mature to a place where the operators are looked at in respect. Well, they're respected, but respected in the fact of almost like linemen. You know what I mean. It's a true career. There's retirement, there's benefits. You're working the same hours. I just kind of use it that is my, my reference to bounce things off of.
Speaker 2:You know really good paying jobs, you know. Was that your motivation to start? I'm sure you didn't start in the beginning of, like, being a consolidator and buying all these companies. I'm sure it started off as like, okay, this one's for sale, so I'll buy this one. And then it branched out. But tell us about that.
Speaker 1:It kind of started. As you know, if you want to retain good employees, you've got to have a path for them to grow. And it's hard to have a path for them to grow in the towing industry because it's always family-owned businesses. So it's you know, everyone plateaus or they go out on their own and then then everybody hates each other, right? There's just too much of that. So if you can grow and you can make it, so guys can move up in the in the ladder. Maybe they're running their own department or they're running a series of them or a division or a location, and we're just going to keep going in that path. I think it's this industry needs it. It's too fragmented and we operate like fire departments, right, and there's no reason for everybody to have one or two rotators. If you can share resources, it's not necessary. You know Absolutely, and that's a good, solid, logical business approach to that. I like what you're saying, Mike, I really do. So how?
Speaker 1:many acquisitions have you made so far? Well, I started out in 2021. We bought John's Record Service up in Concord, new Hampshire. We expanded that. That went really well. We ended up rebranding that to the New England Truck Center and then started looking.
Speaker 1:You know, we grew fast, got to the point. You know, in this business you personally guarantee everything and, honestly, that's tolling. You know it can affect your attitude. So I started looking around talking to people that were a lot smarter than me and the private equity world. They offer a path. You still own the business, you run the business, they're financing it and you no longer have to personally guarantee and you get to take a little bit off the table. So, you know, for the security of my own family and my peace of mind, that was important to me.
Speaker 1:One of the terms I heard one of the other consolidators use was how did he say it? I've secured my family's generational wealth was the term he used. I thought it was just an excellent thought. I think you basically just said the same thing. No, I did. I thought it was just an excellent thought, and I think you basically just said the same thing. No, I did, I did. I mean there were multiple paths you know forward. The one for me was staying heavily involved, keeping, you know, a large ownership and it's important to the people that have been with me for a long time and making sure they have a clear path forward where they're rewarded well too, starting in this industry as an operator I mean you're speaking words of magic to my ears. If that was available years ago you probably wouldn't know my name, the organizations I work for, basically the guy who'd been working there for 25 years was making the percentage of every call just like me that just hired on.
Speaker 2:And there was no career path.
Speaker 1:No retirement, no, nothing. And honestly, the towing industry, I like to say it's made for hardworking people. Industry is it's, I like to say it's, it's made for hard-working people. It's one of those industries you can make as much money for as much as you want to work, you know, as hard as you want to work. It's, it's heavy with burnout, but you know the, the guys and girls that do it. It's there's a love for it, for sure, but at the same time it's not sustainable to work 80 hours a week for 20 years.
Speaker 1:So you know, work-life balance has really taken a new meaning, I would think, in the last five or six years. It's really this new generation. They don't care so much about money as they do time off. So you've got to move with the times. But with that we kind of got a little off track. But since we partnered with Stone Road Partners and Gray Rock Capital Mike, let me hold you up for one second. Sure, we partnered with people that we've got to run commercials for. So could we hang out for a quick commercial break? We'll be right back. No worries, thank, no worries.
Speaker 2:Thank you, Mike.
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Speaker 1:Welcome back listeners. You know you're listening to the new Towing News channel and this episode's about Consolidated Corner. We have one of the best online.
Speaker 2:Now I want to remind all of our listeners we are available on Spotify, itunes, pandora, stitcher iHeartMedia, the number one in the country, Amazon or wherever you get your podcasts, Remember to tune in every week to Towing News Channel and April. I'll turn it over to you. Thank you, dj Mike, right before the break you were talking about how private equity was helping you advance this consolidation that you were doing. Could you go into some more of that?
Speaker 1:Sure, Well, it was definitely a tough slug to get through the information they want and we could probably touch on that a little bit after, just to help out the listeners if they're ever interested. But bringing them on board they really bring a higher level of information. Um, I really enjoy what I'm learning because it's stuff I'm never going to learn. I like to say I've got plenty. I've paid for a lot of mbas. I just never got that diploma. You know you pay for them the hard way, the expensive way, so they came on board. The biggest part that they liked is I had a plan laid out, could put it on paper, showed it to them where the industry in the Northeast is, who the players were, what I thought we could do, how I would do it if I had the money to do it and they liked it, do it if I had the money to do it and they liked it.
Speaker 1:So we made the deal, signed it June of last year and, off and running, we made our first acquisition together. In December of this year we bought out a competitor, Matt Brown's Truck Repair in Bow, New Hampshire. We rolled them in and then we just closed another one in Southern Maine two weeks ago, raised truck service. Great group of guys there also, and we're just trying to let the dust settle and then we have one or two more to close before the end of the year. So you're expanding your service footprint tremendously in this situation, aren't you? That is correct. So our goal is to be New Hampshire, Maine and the better part of Massachusetts, and probably western I mean eastern New York, but not New York City, northern New York.
Speaker 2:No Vermont, yeah Vermont. New York no Vermont.
Speaker 1:Yeah, vermont, sorry, forget about Vermont. I got a lot of friends in Massachusetts. I'm not sure if they live on the good side or the bad side. No, I'm just kidding. Yeah, listen, they're all good guys. Massachusetts has a tough thing down there with their regulations. They do.
Speaker 1:They have to work for every penny down there. They do, you're right about that. So we've got the physical locations how many employees, how much equipment. So right now we're around 135 full-time employees. So right now we're around 135 full-time employees and we have about 126 registered pieces of equipment. So that's stuff with license plates, not counting skid steers, dollies, loaders, all that other stuff. That's trucks, trailers, tractors, tow trucks, all that. There's a fair amount of overlap. You know some stuff we need to sell, consolidate a little bit, replace some stuff. It's quite the process. Oh, I can imagine.
Speaker 1:I can imagine. And you say you're averaging about 100 calls a day at this point. Yeah, about 100 calls a day, a lot of those, as most of your listeners know, in transport, one call could be the guy out for 10 hours, right? Oh, absolutely, especially in the heavy world. Virtually nothing simple. And you said you're doing heavy towing, transport and truck repair at the garage. Do you do road service or hazmat cleanup, any of that kind of stuff?
Speaker 1:Yeah we don't do a lot of hazmat cleanup. The states mostly handle that. Up here. We'll pump fuel tanks, we'll do light cleanup, we'll do what they'll let us do, but we're doing everything else. Road service I think we're running around 10 or 11 full road service trucks. Rotators we have one, two, three, five rotators right now and I think another six heavies between the locations. Wow, that's impressive. Yeah, so from the southernmost location to the northernmost location in miles, how far are we talking? Ooh, maybe 60 at best. Not even we're pretty close. That's still a good footprint. Yeah, we like to go each location. We don't want a location more than like 45 minutes away from its nearest location.
Speaker 1:That works for us to be able to share resources Right. The group doing it out West. We had Jose from Big Rally Toe on and he said the same thing. What they're doing out there is they want those, those shops, to be relatively close so they can move resources as needed to support each other, and I think that's an excellent strategy.
Speaker 2:It's also very thoughtful too.
Speaker 1:Well, it works for us because, at the end of the day, the customers need to be serviced properly. You know you've got to keep those ETAs in check and if something happens, a guy gets tangled up on a job that's bigger than you thought it was. You can't have them waiting all day to get out there. You're gonna you're gonna be able to have some calvary.
Speaker 2:So so, uh, how is your employee retention rate then, since you've had this undertaking, and what does that meant to? What does it mean to your employees to be able to for the benefits and things like that? What has that meant for them?
Speaker 1:I think it's very important. I think we, with the scale, we definitely have saved real money on health insurance and been able to offer better benefits. Our regular insurance we're really reaping the benefits. We're in a captive with Dawnblood In that group. It's worked out very well. It's a great group to lean on and then just everything else. It works for the employees. Our retention I would say we try to aim not to lose more than 10% employees if we take on an acquisition. So you know if there's 40 employees you're going to lose four. You hate to lose any. But change is something that a lot of guys don't like. I say drivers and mechanics hate. A lot of guys don't like I say drivers, drivers and mechanics hate change they really do but you just ask that they give us a shot.
Speaker 1:Right, we're gonna. We have to prove ourselves, just like the employees do. Well, that's a good mindset, a good way to handle it. And again, if people look at reality and know what the towing industry has been.
Speaker 2:This has got to be the future, you know.
Speaker 1:You said earlier about the employees being able to have a life and a known work schedule. All those are critical to the generation that's running these trucks and whatnot nowadays. Yeah, you know it's important too, because people's lives change. They want to move no-transcript.
Speaker 2:That training and that background already in place.
Speaker 1:True. You know, one of the main things we look at when we're sizing up acquisitions is it's not just the business and the name it's important, but really just the business and the name it's important. But really, at the end of the day, in the world we live in, you're buying equipment and you're buying the labor because no one can get enough employees and and it's it's hard to I don't want to use the word steal because no one wants to steal employees. We try to be respectful of that. But you know, if you can absorb the business and make sure the guys are happy and they stay, you know it's important and it works.
Speaker 1:We can't do what we do without the employees. It's impossible. Well, you go back to one of the first consolidators in not towing but trash, wayne Huizenga, who built Waste Management, starting in 1964, if I'm not mistaken, he realized that in the 60s was you can buy the equipment, go out and get the work, but you need the people to do it, and that's why he decided buying towing companies and getting, excuse me, buying trash companies and getting them to work together was his future, and he built into waste management one of the most successful trash companies in the world.
Speaker 1:So the concept is proven and known and works. I agree with that. All right, we've got to take one more break, and then, after the break, I'd like to, if we could, talk about your energy and our cheer equipment.
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Speaker 2:Welcome back listeners.
Speaker 1:You know you're listening to the number one podcast, the towing, and this is the new towing channel, so it's important this is a segment.
Speaker 2:This episode is on the consolidated corner, which has been very well received, so if you have someone that you would like to see on or off the podcast or your state association has some information that you want to share with thousands of listeners, this is the place to do it.
Speaker 1:Our hotline number at the podcast center 706-409-5603. And, mike, this has been a great one. I am taking all sorts of notes and I look forward to listening to more.
Speaker 2:April. I'll turn it over to you. Thank you, DJ Mike. You have been very generous with the information that you've given us so far. When, basically, how the sausage is made, when there's consolidation. Give us your biggest takeaways and your biggest pointers out there for the listeners.
Speaker 1:Well, I would say the biggest thing is everybody wants it done quick and most of these deals, from the time you sign an LOI to closing, you'd like to think it's 90 to 120 days, which seems like a lifetime, but it goes by in the blink of an eye, it goes fast. It's definitely an emotional roller coaster for everybody involved. You think of these sellers. It's been their life, it's their identity, it's everything. So it's not easy, but as long as everybody has the same goal in mind, it's attainable. But I'd like to a couple things we always run into. It's a little bit of advice for the listeners out. There is if there's anything you want to invest in your business, invest in your systems. Have quality bookkeeping like QuickBooks. Use a quality dispatch and use it. Keep your financials clean.
Speaker 1:I learned a long time ago from my accountant you can get paid now or you can get paid more later. So we know how the towing industry is. No matter what you think you hide it, everybody knows how many tows were done and everybody knows how many cars were released and the difference Well, they went to the junkyard. So I think the listeners get where I'm going at. But you get paid a lot more by putting that, you know, making sure it's on the books. Yeah, we had just real quick. We had another consignor there on Fred from Henry's and he did some math and showed real quick. We had another consolidator on Fred from Henry's and he did some math and showed real quick how you're cheating yourself big time by putting that scrap aluminum rim money or something in your pocket.
Speaker 1:Honestly, it's a waste of your own labor doing that stuff. Yes, yes, you're tripping over dollars to pick up pennies. That's right. So a couple other things I would say is make sure your accountant's a good accountant and your lawyer, just because you've used them for the last 10 years. If he's one of the one-man bands, it's a lot for that to get done in a timely fashion. There's there's a lot of back and forth. There's a lot of information that's needed. Sometimes that information gets asked for two, three times because it's coming from different, different areas going to different people. It's good to really invest in. It seems like a lot of money, but it's money well spent. Having a good merger acquisition attorney, a business sale attorney, anything like that, versus the guy that kind of does everything for you and always has, which I'm sure he's perfect. But this is a whole other world.
Speaker 2:You need more of a specialty kind of attorney and a specialty kind of an accountant.
Speaker 1:You know what it is. It's calling the guy with the rotator and the recovery truck and all the equipment to go do the big job, the big wreck out on the highway, versus the guy that's always done it with the 35 ton. You know he can do it but it isn't going to get done in a good, it's not going to get done timely and it may not be as clean and ultimately it's not as professional.
Speaker 2:Absolutely.
Speaker 1:You know, and I guess, at the end of the day, if someone's looking to sell, really what do they want to get out of it? You know, do they want to sail off into the sunset and move to Florida? Do they want to go run a taco stand or do they want to be involved? We're willing to work with however people want to do it. Well, that's important too, because different people are motivated to sell for different reasons. So it's good that you're willing to work with them on wherever they're at it may be. You know, it's hard to find good operators, and the businesses we're looking at are run by very good operators. So if we can retain one and add them to the team and they get to take money off the table and secure their family's financial future, but they're still involved, we are open to that Absolutely. That's one of the strong points I see about consolidation myself. It allows people to do that where they're at in their life.
Speaker 1:Any other tips that you can share? I mean, not really that's about it, Other than just I guess, as you're going through the process and you're selling, just keep running your business like you always have. Don't get it in your head. All right, I'm going to do this because I'm out in six months. I'm kind of superstitious. It's a good way to jinx it, but it's also not the way you want to run your business, because it always comes out and it's not a good look and it's not good for the business.
Speaker 2:It's not good for the business because what employees that you have left that are going to go with the new acquisition will guess their last few months of working for somebody is a bad mindset to be under. We haven't run into it, but that's their last few months of working for somebody, that's a bad mindset to be under.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you know we haven't run into it, but I could see how it could happen. You know, guys, don't do that oil change, don't fix that truck. That doesn't help anybody and it's just not the right thing to do. Fortunately, like I said, we have not run into that. The three deals we've done have been really good deals, excellent sellers, no complaints on our end at all. Well, they were all top-notch companies, weren't they? They were they were.
Speaker 1:That's part of the magic of the whole deal and I would suggest to listeners that are considering selling being realistic. I've seen this many times over the years where folks are unbelievably realistic about A what their equipment is worth, what their goodwill is worth without any written contracts, et cetera. Be realistic is my advice to folks. Yeah, and we're always willing to look at a business. You got to share some information, but you know we sign ndas and we'll tell you right up front what we're willing to pay it's. We don't go into it to negotiate. This is the deal. As long as your numbers back up to what you're telling us and we can prove it, this is the number we'll pay. If you're happy with that, we move forward.
Speaker 1:We don't get into it and try to nickel and dime and get the price down. It's too expensive between attorneys and accountants and insurance agents and, frankly, the waste of time. So I know in the towing world you end up kind of having to negotiate with insurance companies. Everyone wants to negotiate with you, but when you're selling your business you want to deal with the people that are going to give you the price. If you're happy with it, you're moving forward.
Speaker 1:That's the number. But that number comes from the information that we're given up front, but all that has to be verified. As long as you can verify it, the deal's solid. I know a lot of people appreciate that, because I've seen some of these things go on and on. So I know folks, especially in your part of the world, have to appreciate that. So we were going to talk about NRC in this segment, but we actually need to take another quick break and then come back and we're going to get you to tell us about your New England's largest NRC dealer, aren't you? I think we're New England's only NRC dealer.
Speaker 2:That makes you the largest Congratulations, all right.
Speaker 1:After the break, New England's largest and only NRC dealer.
Speaker 2:I'll be right back.
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Speaker 1:Welcome back listeners. A better approach to Parkinson's. Welcome back listeners and I want to tell all of you, Wes and I and April are so proud of how many people have told their friends about the new Towing News channel. This has been fantastic.
Speaker 1:We have over 18,000 listeners and I can't thank you enough for listening, reviewing and sharing with all your friends and you have made 2025 a great year to start the new Towing News channel and in this special episode of Consolidation Corner, I'm going to turn it back over to Wes and we're going to learn all about the great company of NRC. Thanks, dj. Yeah, great interview. Mike, can't thank you enough.
Speaker 1:Tell us about New England Truck Center. Well, we're New England's NRC dealer. I'd like to say we're definitely the closest US dealer to NRC. We're definitely the closest US dealer to NRC. We're about 4-4.5 hours away, depending on traffic which is snow right they're a great company, great product. I mean it's when you run it, you use it, you believe in it.
Speaker 2:It's easy to sell how long have you been a dealer for NRC?
Speaker 1:I'm going to butcher this. It's easy to sell. How long have you been a dealer for NRC? I'm going to butcher this, but it's been at least eight years, it's probably been longer than that. It seems like it's been two years, but it's been. I don't know without looking at this point.
Speaker 2:Yeah, what's hit you on that?
Speaker 1:path. Great man, andy Ferreira. Oh point, yeah, what? What put you on that path? Great man, andy Ferreira. Oh, yes, yes, you know. As I was running, you know, working with my father running the tow company we wanted to buy a heavy. I had asked a couple of dealers. One dealer told me when I had my daddy's approval to come back and talk to him. I talked to Andy, he had given me a quote and I ordered a truck and that started the relationship.
Speaker 2:That'll do it.
Speaker 1:You know, at that point I didn't really know what NRC was, but we got it and never looked back. Yeah, andy was a good man. He absolutely was. And like you say first NRC dealer. Now I tell you NRG has always been a stout unit. I like their boom design.
Speaker 1:But I've been super impressed with these TB 20s, 30s and 40s. Am I saying that correct? You are 20, 30, and 40 TBs, so they're definitely bulletproof. We sell a lot of them.
Speaker 1:The 40TB, I would say, is the Swiss Army knife of ramp trucks. You know they've had the heavy-duty underlift on them before anybody. They're the same reach as any other manufacturer, no matter how the marketing spun, and they're bulletproof. I mean we run four of them right now with a fifth one being built. They're a good all-around truck Boy. Yeah, some of the loads I see these things carrying too, with a you know track driller behind telling the whole thing or something heavy up top. It's just incredibly useful, I have to imagine. Yeah, you know, again, they're the Swiss Army Knife. They're made for heavy transport. They're going to get the job done but to be able to go tow, you know you're towing stuff that a 20-ton would be towing. So it's nice you can keep the trucks moving and loaded both ways. But we, I think, like I said in the beginning, we do about 66 trucks a year for rotators all the way down to the 20 TBs. We don't build the 10 TBs, we try to just stick with the 20s on up.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think most of the dealers that I see are doing that same thing.
Speaker 1:Yeah, the 10's a nice price option, but for us the change in price to a 20, it's a big difference in the level of the truck. We sell, we build and sell all over North America. We sell, we build and sell all over North America. We've had, we've delivered three trucks to Hawaii, one to Puerto Rico and then a lot Texas, florida, up and down the East Coast, some Midwest. Most of our customers are all returning. I like to say we have the best, we definitely have the best customers. They are loyal. They always come back. I think they appreciate the quality of the builds we do. Well, that's nice to hear.
Speaker 2:That is nice to hear in this day and age.
Speaker 1:You all build everything at your location. We assemble everything but the 85 ton. It's not cost effective for us to do that. Gotcha. That makes sense to me too. All right, well, we really appreciate you being on the podcast and sharing all this information.
Speaker 1:I got, first of all, anything else you want to share and, second of all, can you give us a way to contact you? Yeah, I guess a way for folks to contact, but just call the office and ask for me and they'll transfer you over, or at least the voicemail. That would be 603-778-8158. And if you're looking to sell your business in the Northeast, we're looking to talk to you.
Speaker 2:Have you had a claim of that? That's it.
Speaker 1:And if you want an NRC, we have them in stock and you can just go on social media and a sales guy Tom is there, or call and ask for Tom and he'll take care of you. That's awesome, Mike. I thank you. Sorry about that. No, go ahead. So I was just going to say I really appreciate you having me on and asking some questions and trying to get that information out there Because, again, whether you like it or not, or think it's a good idea or you're not sure, the consolidation is here. I think we see it all across the country and it's only going to pick up steam. Absolutely, I agree with that.
Speaker 1:First of all, I thank you for coming on Sometimes folks don't want to come and talk about things. I appreciate your openness and I do appreciate that you're trying to create good jobs for towing operators. I entered this industry as a towing operator and I have great respect for that. So, folks, as you said, if you're looking to sell a business, in the Northeast or buy a truck.
Speaker 2:Give them a call. Mike, thanks so much for your time today.
Speaker 1:We really appreciate you. Thank you guys, Appreciate it.