Name of Podcast: Edge of the Couch

Name of Episode: Practicing Joy and Play for Collective Liberation - Interview with Ji-Youn Kim

Episode Host: Jordan Pickell

Published: October 27, 2021 (Season 2 Episode 9)

Duration: 44 min

Listen: Apple Podcasts, Spotify, website & more

Transcript by: Narae Kim and Ji-Youn Kim Itsjiyounkim.com @itsjiyounkim

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Allison McClearly: Hi everyone, it's Allison here doing my very first solo Jane segment. So let's dive right in. Today we are talking about the wonderful world of Jane reports. As you might remember, I have been with Jane for six years now. And so I know really well how beneficial that report system can be for running a practice. When I first started out, I used the referral report because I wanted to see how my clients were finding me. I was able to add customer referral options and after a few months, I could see that most of my clients were finding me by word of mouth. Another report that I love that Jane offers is the sales report. This one is a bit more focused on finances and I've come to appreciate how understandable it is. I can run the report for a specific time period and see what my overall taxes are, which invoices are still outstanding, then export it all to Excel. It has made tax season a lot less stressful, since all of my billing is done directly through Jane, and my data is organized. So I can either do my taxes myself, which I do not do, or hand that data off to an accountant, which I do. Jane offers a ton of other helpful reports. So let's hear about some of the others. 

Allison: You can run an appointment report that gives you the status of all of your appointments and is easily filterable by date to practitioner and charts status. And this can be helpful to keep track of charting or if your clients reschedule, you can run a waitlist report so you can see all the clients who have added themselves to your waitlist. And while you might not have a waitlist right away, it's good to know that your clients can add themselves to one. A cool thing about all Jane reports is that you can use filters to sort and manage the data that is showing up on the screen. So those filters include things like staff member, date, location, and all reports can be exported to an Excel spreadsheet or PDF, which makes them super usable and way easier to send along to other people. While we know reports aren't necessarily fun, it is so great that Jane has made them easy, accessible, readable and all the things that we need as private practice counselors. It can be an untapped area of Jane that's filled with so much valuable info for your practice. You can head over to Jane.app/MentalHealth to learn more about reports and all Jane's other features too. Remember to use the code EDGECOUCH1MO for a one month grace period at signup if you know you're ready to get started. Alright, now onto today's episode.

Allison: This podcast is not training or supervision. This is an invitation to delve into these really big topics. When we are talking about clients, please know it is not you. It is a weaving together of stories that come up over and over again. 

[Music starts] 

Jordan Pickell: With the Edge of the Couch, we are here to create a space to delve into the topics that were either shied away from or dismissed because they were too big, too nuanced, too risky, or too uncomfortable to discuss in school or even supervision. We are two passionate therapists sharing our personal opinions about the therapeutic process. 

[Music ends]

Jordan: Hey everyone, welcome back to Edge of the Couch. I'm Jordan Pickell. And I have an interview for you today. I am interviewing Ji-Youn Kim. She is... well, maybe I'll let you introduce yourself. I think you will do a more well-rounded job thanI will, so tell us about yourself.

Ji-Youn: Thank you. I appreciate that. I always find it a little awkward when people read out my bio [Jordan laughs] and like, “Ugh. Okay, this is who I'm supposed to be.” [Jordan: Yeah]. But yeah, hello folks. My name is Ji-Youn Kim. I am a justice-oriented therapist in the pursuit of collective liberation working and living on stolen Musqueam, Tsleil-Waututh and Squamish territories, also colonially known as Vancouver, Canada. I recently reclaimed my Corean name this past summer and my name actually, in Corean, means beautiful purpose rooted in justice.

Jordan: How amazing is that? It was meant to be.

Ji-Youn: RIght? Yeah, I know! My great aunt named me based off of my birth chart based on like Eastern, Corean astrology. It helps me remember what I want to embody. Yeah, that's very briefly about me.

Jordan: Thank you for that. Do you find… do you have a sense that you step into that name because that's the meaning of your name? Or the other way around? I guess they sort of feed into each other. But...

Ji-Youn: Yeah, yeah, I think the Corean belief… Coreans are really into names and kind of believe that names can help shape your destiny and the rest of your life. And so I actually have like a cousin who my grandma got to change his name because she thought that his name was bringing him a lot of unfortunate events because of lack of alignment. But yeah, and so I think there's…, you know, I will leave some room for that, of like this idea of destiny and at the same time, especially learning a lot more into depth about the meaning of my name — because Corean names are often associated with Chinese characters and every character tells us a much more deeper story — I was definitely able to embody it more. Be like, “Oh, wow, like what a gift? What a gift from my elders.” Yeah. And as a reminder.

Jordan: Mmhmm. Yeah, you know, that actually, I think, could be a good jumping off point for us. Because language plays a huge role in our work, what we name, what language we use. I think about some of my colleagues who do counseling in multiple languages, or English isn't their first language and then doing therapy as therapists in English. When we're talking about justice-oriented counseling, there's something important, at least for me, from my perspective, there's something important about naming things.

Ji-Youn: Yes. And even just me, like starting off an interview for example, with my Corean name— how it roots me in my purpose and how it relates to the work that I do — I think is very important, and how I basically pay homage to my ancestors and my ancestry. But yeah, I think the importance of like, wording and how we name things, and what they mean to us is very important. And so I can, you know, I can just say, “My name is Ji-Youn, but what it means to me is… this is what it means to me.” And it opens up a whole worldview of how I show up in the world and how I practice.

Jordan: Yeah, yeah. How does that play into how you show up with clients? 

Ji-Youn: Yeah, it's really interesting, because I've worked with…, I think most of my clients I've worked with [since] before I made the public transition. So I actually had kind of a coming out experience [laughs] to my clients this summer. Yeah, that was really fun. Because I had used a whitewashed version, like an anglicized version, just to make, uh, the pronunciation easier for English-only speaking folks. So I had that moment, and it was really beautiful for me to share that with my clients and them to be like, “Whoa, my counselor is reclaiming her ancestry, reclaiming the origins of her name,” and they got to experience me being vulnerable. That was really cool. And it was just very cute. And a lot of, uh, my clients celebrated me and celebrated with me, and we had little dance parties about it. The idea of integrity is something that's very important to me as a therapist, making sure that I'm actually embodying and practicing the things that I claim to value. Reclaiming my name was a big part of that. But I also want to note that I was largely in part inspired by one of my own clients who's also of Corean ancestry. And this person reclaimed their Corean name. They had been using an English name their whole life and reclaimed their Corean name. And I was like, “I'm not able to do that.” And that was like a big confrontation moment for me of like, “Wow, the courage for this person to go from an English, a totally English name, to their Corean name.” I was just in so much, such awe of their courage that I was like, "Okay, well, I guess it's my turn now". 

Jordan: Yeahh.

Ji-Youn: It was very, very cool. And so I think that also kind of breaks this idea of therapy being this one-sided, unidirectional relationship. 

Jordan: Yeah.

Ji-Youn: Not that clients have any responsibility whatsoever to impact us in particular ways. But just acknowledging that we also learned so much, or I'll speak for myself that I learn so much from my clients, right? And I'm very much impacted by them, and my growth, and my healing is very much influenced by them, too. And their journeys.

Jordan: Absolutely, yeah, I totally agree with that. And yet the idea that there's mutuality in the therapeutic relationship is actually really radical.

Ji-Youn: Yes. Because it creates us as therapists into subjective beings. We're not this [Jordan: Mhm] like, objective, neutral, anonymous person. Yeah. Coming… yeah, as humans with our particular subjectivities and positionalities and worldviews influencing our clients. And being influenced by our clients as well.

Jordan: Mhm. And sharing that with them [Ji-Youn: Mhm]. Did it…, were you able to share with that client that that's part of the reason? 

Ji-Youn: Yeah, yeah. And they were so excited for me, right? And I had the permission to kind of share the story on podcast platforms and yeah, it just it feels like a growing together. Or like a…, yeah, it feels like a growing together and shifting together. I will call it formally a client-therapist relationship, but I also very much think about my work as— of them as community members. Like I am a part of their community, they're a part of my community. And so, yeah, it's just like a very different form of relating that I [Jordan: Yes] definitely was not introduced to in training [laughs].

Jordan: Yeah, it's very much, it's dual relationship. Allison and I just had a conversation that hasn't gone out yet, but around dual relationship [Ji-Youn: Mhm] and the idea that these things are separate, and that a lot of new therapists take on the idea, and people who are more seasoned, that it's um, that it's bad [Ji-Youn: Mhm] to have any other connection with someone. Let alone like a human, full human connection with them in [Ji-Youn: Mhmm] the therapy room.

Ji-Youn: I mean, we could unpack all of the assumptions [laughs] associated with that. Even questioning, like, is that even possible for some people, for therapists who work in small towns, small rural areas where, you know, everyone knows everyone, or  in the case of like, myself in my work, predominantly working with BIPOC, especially like women and trans non-binary folks locally here who are all somewhat involved in social justice. It's a pretty small community [laughs]. And so, I have mutual friends with many of my clients [Jordan: Yeah], you know. We can definitely recognize the quote unquote, risks, and just create boundaries and communications. Like, they're all things that we can communicate and work through together [Jordan: Yeah] and collaborate through [Jordan: Yeah]. They're not these super scary things like, “Oh no. If you, you know, see a client at this other event, then like, shits gonna go?” Like, it's not that big of a deal. [Jordan: Yeah, yeah]. As big of a deal as I think we're trained, I mean. At least my experience was a lot of fear. So yeah, and it doesn't have to be so scary.

Jordan: Yeah. You know, you said something about boundaries. And it made me think about power, like when you're talking about justice-oriented therapy or counseling power, what does that look like? Have you played with that or worked with that in your work?

Ji-Youn: Mmhmm. Well, at least in my training, we were informed of how power dynamics play out in terms of like, therapist-client relationships, of therapists inherently having power [Jordan: Mhm] as therapists, and even though, you know, we try to reduce or minimize those power dynamics, just the fact that we are…, like, society's going to perceive us as experts. And therefore we do have more power, especially in the case of, you know, folks who are involved in the criminal punishment system, there are very tangible things that we can do that can impact our clients in harmful ways. That's something helpful to keep in mind. But yeah, I'm constantly thinking about power dynamics, and how it shows up with our different positionalities and social locations. And I think power becomes a lot more layered and complicated, because it's not just the client-therapist relationship, right? It's also like — what does it mean, for me to be a settler and counseling a indigenous client? What does it mean, for me to be a woman, a cis woman, working with trans non-binary folks, but also with cis men, you know> Just recognizing that when we have power, we have, we also…, I mean, everyone has the ability to do harm, everyone is capable of doing harm, but especially with power that gets amplified. And so recognizing all of the ways that I could do harm with the power dynamics that I'm incorporated in, but also, the harm that I could also experience is something that is [Jordan: Yees] tinkering with, right? Working with white clients or cis men clients. Oh, actually, I'm not always— I think the therapist-client relationship is definitely, you know, the dominating relationship in session [Jordan: Mm]. But it's not that I always have more power in every aspect, either.

Jordan: And sometimes, you know, honestly, I think about those experiences that I've had, and that because of the therapeutic role of the therapist role, that I feel like I can't speak back, in maybe the same way that I would, feeling constrained. [Ji-Youn: Yeah] Even to use my power sometimes in those situations, when based on positionality that I have just on that layer of having less [Ji-Youn: Right] power than someone. 

Ji-Youn: Yeah. Which is why I've been tinkering and practice around, like, what might it be like to just address power dynamics at the very beginning of relationship [Jordan: Mhmm], or even just, you know, in the middle [laughs] of the relationship with previous clients as well, with ongoing clients of like, "Hey, can we talk about power or the power dynamics between us and the potential for harm?" 

Jordan: Mhmm. Mm.

Ji-Youn: Through one of my white clients, I was actually able to have this very explicit conversation of what does it mean for us to be doing a type of therapy that is centered around unpacking and decentering whiteness while, you know, you as a client, you are a white person and I, myself, am a person of color. How do we make space for potential harms that might occur in that, but then also still recognizing that I'm the therapist with more power in that dynamic as well, and so [Jordan: Mmm] uncover and have an explicit conversation of like, "Hey, can we give each other the permission to bring up these things?" If we think there is harm that is potentially being done or could happen, how do we want to address harm? When and if it occurs between us [Jordan: Yeahh], you know, whether it's me to you or you to me? Yeah. So that's just something that I've been thinking about. 

Jordan: Yeahh. Yeah. 

Ji-Youn: But I think it's very interesting. Yes, it's different from what I've…, definitely from what I've learned in therapy school.

Jordan: Absolutely, yeah. Talking about sameness, and talking about difference and the power and positionality around that, when I think about harm, there are sort of these discreet, um, maybe moments or dynamics that are happening over time that you can address. But I'm also thinking about identities and positionalities, how do you speak about sameness? And difference? [Ji-Youn: Mhm]. Do you think I should give you an example or...

Ji-Youn: Example, please.

Jordan: You know, last year was a particularly intense year for racialized trauma, for white supremacist violence. Well, with clients, it was certainly something that came up over and over again, and you know, in the aftermath of the killings in Atlanta, I remember sitting with different clients and crying with clients [Ji-Youn: Mhm]. And some clients were also BIPOC, some clients were white women clients. And how do we talk about the sameness and difference. You know, my positionality, as a white-passing quote, unquote, mixed race person [Ji-Youn: Mhm], like I'm constantly talking about sameness and difference [Ji-Youn: Right. Yes], with the people that I work with, because it feels so important and necessary [Ji-Youn: Mhm]. That's sort of an example. But how do you talk about sameness and difference when you're orienting to something like an instance of white supremacist violence in the news? 

Ji-Youn: Yeah, yeah. Oh, okay. So I'm like, actually, in some courses right now, and studying social justice in an academic setting, and I cannot remember the academic scholar but there's a paper I read around difference. I actually did a whole course on difference and one of the questions that was proposed was "What difference does difference make", right? And so, what is the—

Jordan: Mmm, whoaa.

Ji-Youn: Right? Ahh! What is the point [Jordan laughs] of difference, right? And also [Jordan: Mhm], what is the point of… what does sameness even mean? [Jordan: Yes]. Generally sameness is used in the attempts of unity. [Jordan: Mmhmm, mhmm] Oh my god, this is coming back to the topic of language and words and naming but [Jordan: Yes, yes] we know about unity and then there's coalitions or solidarities, right? Having some kind of shared something, um, and sameness is often used in attempts for that. But sameness, or the claims of sameness often dismisses difference, very important difference, and therefore, sameness [Jordan: Mhm] often excludes. So even, for example, the term "women of color", which is [Jordan: Mhm] something that—a term that I have used often, I do, um, but who does the term, "women of color" embrace and include and who is it excluding? Even after the Atlanta shootings…, most of my clients are people of Asian diaspora. Asian as they identify but then we got specific [laughs]. [Jordan: Mhmm, yeah]  Ji-Youn: We got specific about Asia—

Jordan: That's important.

Ji-Youn: Yeah. And so, you know, I have clients who are of East Asian ancestry like myself, and face sinophobia, which is a particular type of anti-Asian racism, right? Of looking quote, unquote, Chinese. And then I have South Asian clients who are Brown Asians, right? And how are they impacted? How were they impacted by the Atlanta shooting as well? And then there are like West Asian, or Middle Eastern folks, and soon after the Atlanta shooting were the shootings in London, right? And yeah, I think naming white supremacy, for example, as one, uh, overarching system of oppression, but also recognizing the specific manifestations of white supremacy such as Orientalism, Islamophobia, anti-Blackness, colonialism. Yeah, I think it's important to name all of those differences. But the question of what difference does difference make is…, naming difference is to include, and then build solidarities across. And so unity, I would say, is not around sameness, but it's around shared purpose and shared visions, and shared futures for the world.

Jordan: Right. Shared as opposed to sameness. You know, when you talk about unity, I think that, that's, again, something that's quite new and radical in our work, which is naming that, “Hey, there's something [Ji-Youn: Mhm] that's shared here.” That alone is a way of joining…, we have some of these shared lived experiences or ways of orienting to that.

Ji-Youn: Yeah, yeah. And so in practice, right after the Atlanta shooting, it was, like my Brown, non-Eastern Asian clients, like were able to, not hold space for me, but recognize how I was very much impacted by that event. They were able to recognize that difference [laughs] for me, which felt really validating for me. But then at the same time, I was able to, for some of the South Asian or Brown, like, Filipina women, they were still very much impacted by this because there's a shared experience [Jordan: Yes] of being fetishized [Jordan: Mhm, mhm] as Asian women, right, even though it's different. But I was also able to reflect that back of like, “Yes, you know, you might not exactly look like the people who were targeted in this particular event. But you also have a shared experience, even though it's a little bit different.” And so to recognize shared experience and difference at the same time, for each other [Jordan: Mhm], I think was really, really powerful.

Jordan: Yeah, specificity.

Ji-Youn: Yees.

Jordan: The nuances of that [Ji-Youn: Mhm]. Something that also came to my mind just now is that I think that when I'm sitting with clients, there are some clients that are waiting for me to name things and sort of are assessing whether or not, especially new clients [Ji-Youn: Totally], do I feel comfortable saying white supremacy [Ji-Youn: Mm, yeah]. Trying to assess whether, yeah, trying to assess whether it's safe enough to speak about it in that way [Ji-Youn: Mhm]. And then there are folks, I mean, I imagine because of the way that you show up in the world, you know, on social media, and just on the Healing in Color website and things, that people who find you sort of know [Ji-Youn: Yes]. It's kind of built in to the folks that you're seeing, but I'm also wondering if there are…, I'm sure that there are moments where you're sitting with someone, and there's something like a larger systemic dynamic that you're noticing [Ji-Youn: Mhm] that maybe the client isn't [Ji-Youn: Yes], or at least isn't expressing that they're noticing in the moment. How do you speak about that or attend to them?

Ji-Youn: Mhmm, yeah, I think two parts. One, at the very beginning of the relationship, I ask, "Would you find it helpful for me to name certain systems that I think might be taking part in your experiences?" That is an explicit question that I will ask, or "Would you prefer to name it yourself?" I think naming these larger systems can both be extra validating and can also lead to more intellectualizing at the same time. And so depending on, you know, where the client is at, in terms of their emotionality and their emotional processing, I will, um, often make an offer of like, “I guess something that's coming up for me is how white supremacy or colonial practice might be showing up to this, how does that resonate for you?” [Jordan: Mhm, mhm] And I ask that question all the time, not even [Jordan laughs] just with, you know, naming these larger systems. But with anything [Jordan: Mhmm] that I offer, that did not…, that was not initiated by the client, I'll say, "You know, this is coming up for me, how does this resonate for you?" 

Jordan: Mhm, yeah.

Ji-Youn: And clients will say no [laughs]. They will actually say no. And, uh, a really cool practice that one of my friends and colleagues, Emmett, does is he actually at the very beginning of the relationship, he'll actually practice…, do an exercise of saying no with his client, right? [Jordan: Right, mhm]. Be like, "I'm going to ask you a ridiculous question like, can I have all your money? And you're going to practice saying no, to me" [Jordan: Yeah, yeah]. And he actually does that in practice, which I think is really, really cool. But yeah, I ask the question, "Does this resonate?" And I think that is helpful. And depending on their answer, sometimes it's the right moment to bring it up. Um, sometimes when they're like, "Oh, my goodness, yes!" Right? Then I'm like, "Cool. Got it. On the dime". And they’re…, or they can be like, "Yeah, maybe" or "Yeah, I think so", you know, there's some hesitancy there, and I'm like, “okay, then this was not the best timing for this offering or there was something else that they needed, that would have been more helpful.”

Jordan: Yeah [Ji-Youn: Yeah]. So there's consent there. Again, the client is the expert in their own way [Ji-Youn: Mhm]. Like, even though we might see these larger systems [Ji-Youn: Yes], from our own experiences [Ji-Youn: Yes], the client sort of gets to decide, the person that we're sitting with gets to decide what resonates.

Ji-Youn: Right, yeah. And a part of that too…, I have some clients who have explicitly asked me, "Hey, can you call me in? When, like, I have a tendency, I'm still unlearning the characteristics of white supremacy, or I'm still unlearning ableism. Would you be open to kind of calling me in if you ever notice that kind of thinking or behavior come up?" And so I'm like, "Sure". And so I have called in clients gracefully, "Hey, the way that you are orienting yourself towards your husband as a cis woman, how does patriarchy play into this? How might patriarchy play into this?" And my clients are like, "Oh shit, I am imposing patriarchal ideas onto my husband" [laughs], right? [Jordan: Right. Mm]. To be able to keep— I think this idea of accountability is also very important. Oh, I actually want to unlearn these things within myself. And therapy can be a space where my therapist [laughs] holds me accountable to this as well.

Jordan: Oh, I love that. I feel so energized when there's that shared moment of like, yes, this may, you know, it sort of clicks things in a place. I'm also thinking about…, you said that there are moments where it can really help, there's moments when it might not be the right moment, or that it brings up an intellectualizing to name some of these larger systems [Ji-Youn: Mhm]. I'm also thinking about, there have been moments with clients in the last year certainly, where sometimes naming the system brings a sense of helplessness. I mean, I will say to clients, "This is an individualist, uh, setup", like therapy is an individualist setup. And we can talk about these systems and how do we navigate it, but how do you sit with clients? How do you move through that with clients when they're sitting in that, when you name a system and they're sitting in helplessness, hopelessness? 

Ji-Youn: One of the greatest gifts I received during my training was an instructor who allowed me to just sit in my helplessness for a moment. She was like, "Why don't you just stay there for a little bit?" I think we have such a huge distaste or reaction against helplessness that's just like, “Oh, once you feel helpless, you're playing a victim narrative, and you're just doing this, you're blah, blah, blah.” What might it be like to be able to step in and out of helplessness, just like with any other emotional experience? If I'm feeling helpless, and someone's like, “Oh, why don't you do this? Or do this and do this instead? Or what could we do?” That's not where I'm at. And so [Jordan: Mmhmm] yeah. So when there is…, when helplessness does come up in session, I will literally just be like, “Yeah,” and I'll just go silent [both laugh]. Go silent. Or sometimes I'll be like, "Can we sit with that for a moment?" And they're like, "Ughhh" [Jordan: Yeah]. And I'm like, "Two seconds", "Five seconds".

Ji-Youn: I think it's really important for us to be able to acknowledge and accept helplessness as an experience [Jordan: Mhm]. We don't have full control, right? [Jordan: Mhm]. We have some agency. And so what are the things that we can do? And so yeah, I do a lot of brainstorming with clients around— collective liberation is my purpose and vision — given this experience, given the sense of helplessness, we've sat with it, felt through it a little bit, might be helpful to think about how you might contribute to collective liberation? What is this moment asking of us? [Jordan: Mhm, yeah]. Okay, what can we actually do out in the world to disrupt these systems? [Jordan: Yeah]. And what is the world that we want to create, uh, that we want? What would, you know, liberation look like and feel like? And how can we start embodying and creating that in this moment. And increasing justice is not my end goal, the pursuit is, for me, is joy and laughter and liberation and collective liberation. That is what I'm in the pursuit of. And social justice is a very important part in getting there. But only thinking about injustice and violence, I think, can be really difficult. I'm also like, “Okay, like joy, play, rest, liberation, what [Jordan: Yeahh] might it be like to start embodying and practicing what that might be? Aiming for that versus just a world without violence?”

Jordan: I think that I get stuck there with clients in the helplessness, and you know, similar to what you're saying around, how can we disrupt. I go into, "How are we already resisting? How can we resist?" I don't know, something opens in my chest when you say, "What about just this envisioning?" [Ji-Youn: Yes]. You know, envisioning for collective liberation versus pushing back [Ji-Youn: Mhm], trying to shift what is in front of us. Just completely turning the question on its head [Ji-Youn: Mhm], I can feel…, my body feels completely different in having that conversation, versus "How do we resist? How are we resisting?" Which is also an important conversation, but it feels so different in my body [Ji-Youn: Yeahh], and it brings up so much more possibility.

Ji-Youn: Yeah, yeah. So the difference between only responding to current injustices and violence, and that being the end goal, versus that being a part of a greater picture of envisioning and creating the world that we actually want to live in [Jordan: Yeahh, yeahh!], would actually feel, not only like, "okay", but liberatory.

Jordan: Mhmm, mhmm, yeah. And that's something we absolutely can do on our own. 

Ji-Youn: Yes, yeah, I've been thinking a lot more about embodied liberation — of liberation, not only as, you know, something that we pursue or this end goal, but also as a process and a daily practice. How do we actually embody the things right now, the things that we're trying to work towards? With rest, for example, we can think about it as rest as resisting capitalism, but I'm like, "Okay, why do I always have to be fucking resisting?" You know? [Jordan: Yeah, yeah. Yeah]. Like, I'm tired. I want to rest and just because it feels good, right? [Jordan: Yeah, yeah]. And so um, and so rest as embodied liberation, as well. Okay, the thing that I'm trying to pursue — how am I embodying that right now in this moment, in the ways that I can?

Jordan: How do you have those conversations with clients like bringing in play and laughter? [Ji-Youn: Mhmm]. People are coming in with their experiences of violence, of oppression of just living in the world that we live in. And how do you make space? Like, how do you invite clients to play?

Ji-Youn: Yeah, yeah, with one of my clients, that actually came up. Of how joy can also be an important part of the grief experience, and reclaiming joy and being like, "You will not take this away from me, I will go to the beach and go swimming and dig my hands into the sand. And I will carve out and intentionally make space for this". So uh, it's a little bit…, it often starts off as a little bit of a "fuck you". But then [we] realize it feels really good. And also, what might it look like to honour my ancestors too in this ongoing struggle? Oh, our ancestors still held on to song and dance and celebration and food and community as they resisted colonialism or imperialism [Jordan: Mhm]. Also, just practicing self celebration and joy, too.

Jordan: Yeahh.

Ji-Youn: I think many folks think about therapy as a place you go to to process unpleasant experiences and emotions. But I actually challenge that. Especially to my clients who are, you know, multiply marginalized, the world that we live in doesn't make a lot of space for our joy and celebration, especially in the current…, considering the context of trauma porn on social media and stuff like that. It's very important for us to reclaim that too, because the world doesn't really carve out those spaces for us. And so one of my clients was like, “Oh, we've done a lot of work somatically around being able to process grief or rage a little bit more easier. But joy is so uncomfortable for me.” And I was like, "Yeah [Jordan: Mhmm, mhm], let's explore that". And so we actually practice embodying joy, and we practice self celebration, and I do these little dance parties. And I ask the question “Okay and how might you celebrate?” [Jordan: Yeah]. Like, that's the homework [laughs]. How might you celebrate?

Jordan: Absolutely, yeah. Self celebration. I love that language. I like to brainstorm with clients about what brings joy. Self celebration isn't a word that I use, I'm gonna carry that forward. But it's not just for grounding [Ji-Youn: Mhm]. It's for tapping into these other parts of ourselves. What did you like when you were growing up? Before all of this? Oh, I like to dance. Oh, I like to sing. I wonder what it would be like [Ji-Youn: Yeah, yeah] to try and sing now as an adult and step into that.

Ji-Youn: Mhmm, yeah. I'm often trying to see shifts that my clients would experience as progress. Be like, “hey, remember a few months ago, when you said that you really wanted to work on this thing. And look at how you've been embodying it without even thinking about it. Like, that's phenomenal.” [Jordan: Mhm]. And so then we'll celebrate, right? Just like coming up with all of these reasons to celebrate, not because they don't exist, and we have to try to find them. But because we're not practiced in seeing them. Yes. [Jordan: Mhm!]. Yes, like self celebration, what is it like to celebrate yourself and also to celebrate with community, right? And to be seen in and experience your celebration of yourself.

Jordan: Yeah. Which is such a huge role that we can play [Ji-Youn: Mhm] to help slow people down, invite people to slow down. [Ji-Youn: Yeah, yeah]. And to, like you did, sometimes share what you've witnessed, to celebrate with them.

Ji-Youn: Mhm. And they're like, "Oh, right. I did do that. Whoaa". And I'm like, "Yeees!"

[Both laugh]

Jordan: Well, you know, as we're wrapping up, to speak directly to our listeners, what would you like to say to new therapists?

Ji-Youn: Mmhmm. [Laughs] I don't— this is— I generally have this assumption of therapy conversations being super gentle and loving and caring and that isn't [Jordan laughs] not me, but it's also not, like I'm also very real [Jordan: Yeahh!]. And so, I think, I've been a client of therapy myself since high school and, um, have been incredibly harmed by mental health practitioners. And so that is where I'm coming from. But I've been thinking about this idea of interrogating yourself of how you're showing up, how you might be complicit. And also interrogating how you— what opportunities we have to re-envision and build and co-create. And so to really go beyond, you know, therapeutic practices, and reorienting towards this larger picture of, "Okay, myself as a human or myself as a being, how can I participate? How can I engage in a way that is justice-doing, that is towards liberation?" Yeah, I've been thinking about the term self-interrogation. Uh, and I know that has a harsh connotation. But I really see it as opportunities to do better, because I really…, I guess, I'm coming from a place of, "I really want to do better". So that is one. 

Ji-Youn: And then the other thing that I wanted to offer too is, I often get these questions like, "Oh, where did you do your training to learn justice-oriented therapy?" Right? [Jordan laughs] I'm like, "Uhhh, none?" Much of what I know is based off of my lived experiences, and I think this is something that I don't talk about as openly, but I have experience with very severe mental illness and chronic suicidality, and attempts and self-harm and addictions, and the BC Mental Health Act, police-mandated hospitalizations, like a lot of that. And so a lot of it comes from like, “Okay, how can I apply these social justice principles into my therapeutic practice?” And it's a lot of brainstorming. I actually didn't have a lot of— [Jordan: Yeahh] I didn't, you know, all the books and stuff [laughs]. Like, I haven't read all the books on how to incorporate this into therapy, right?

Jordan: Mhm, yes.

Ji-Youn: I'm really not that person but rather leaning into community-based learning. I truly don't believe that these institutions are going to teach us all of the ways of doing liberatory therapy because they themselves [Jordan: Absolutely] are complicit and are profiting off the system [both laugh], right? Like, they don't [Jordan: Quite literally]. Literally, they don't want to advocate for deinstitutionalized mental health care. And so I really rely heavily on community-based learning, learning from and learning with.

Ji-Youn: And so I actually want to do a little bit of a shout out to some of the people that I learned from because I've been unpacking this idea of knowledge as individual. I believe in knowledge as created by the collective [Jordan: Mhm]. I don't believe in this one person coming up with this idea by themselves. [Jordan: Right, yeah]. Yeah, just to recognize the people that I learned from: Dr. Jennifer Mullan of Decolonizing Therapy. She was the first role model I had of like, "wait, I can be a political therapist? Like what?” [Jordan: Mhm, mhm]. Because I was so taught the opposite during my training, so huge shout out to her and her work around politicizing your practice and decolonizing therapy and ancestral rage. Big shout out to her. 

Ji-Youn: And then Vikki Reynolds, who is a local white settler therapist and she does a lot of practice around ethical practice versus just following Code of Ethics as institutional rules. So I've learned a lot from her. Dr. Travis Heath, who is a community member of Vikki's. He is a professor at the University of Denver, I believe, but I learned a lot about applying abolitionist principles into therapy from him. And he's in narrative therapy as well. And then I also learned a lot from my friend, Gabes Torres. Oh, my goodness, yeah. Everyone on Instagram already know that we're good friends [laughs]. Gabes Torres on transformative justice, mutual aid. Gabes and I, she and I do a lot of brainstorming around like, “what does anti-carceral mental health care look like? And deinstitutionalized mental health care?” So to have like a buddy with shared values to do that kind of workshopping of ideas with is phenomenal, what a gift.

Ji-Youn: And then two more people: Sonny Jane at the Lived Experience Counselor. I think I really invalidated my own lived experiences until I came across their content. Like "Oh, right. [Laughs]. It's not just about these credentials and years of being a registered therapist". I've been a client of therapy myself for over 10 years, right? And I have all of this lived experience that is so valuable that cannot be learned through textbooks. And so their work on that and on peer support is really helpful. And then my friend, my good friend, Maverick Lumen as well on incorporating spirituality and Tarot and astrology into therapy as well and also around peer support. I know, ahh! [laughs]. [Jordan: Yeah]. I was just like, at my processing rage webinar, I was just talking about like my three like main signs and just throwing out there casually. It was amazing [Jordan laughs]. So yeah, I'm very much endebted to them as well. So yeah, as you can see—  and this is only a part, a portion of everyone [Jordan: Of course, mhmm], but they're all practitioners. They're all, all these people are mental health practitioners. And so I think it's — [Jordan: Currently] Mhm, currently, so I think it's really important to know that there are so many phenomenal people out there doing these things. Yeah, I really advocate for community-based learning.

Jordan: I will get their names and put them in the show notes. Hopefully, we can get a couple of them on the podcast, that would be amazing [Ji-Youn: Yes]. How can people contact you? And what kind of, I guess, connection? Would you be open to with listeners?

Ji-Youn: Mhmm, yeah. I am on Instagram, @itsjiyounkim. I am pretty receptive. But I'm really reassessing my relationship with social media lately [laughs]. And so, we'll see [Jordan: Mhm, mhm]. But yeah, I'm very open to DMs and stuff and conversations and just engagement. I also want to note that on my Instagram link in the bio, I have a spreadsheet for student therapists who are wanting— student therapists of colour who are wanting to connect with each other. Because I get all these messages like, "I'm the only person of colour in my class who's talking about these things in my program".

Jordan: Right, yeah.

Ji-Youn: And I'm just like, “There are like several of you talking to me [laughs]. Let me connect you to each other.” And so there's a spreadsheet on that. Yes, Instagram. I also host workshops every so often. We'll see, I did a workshop with Gabes and Travis in the summer on radicalized care. But yeah, we'll see if we do that offering again in the future. And feel free to email me, especially around counseling trainings and resources. I'm happy, I'm happy to offer as well. Or email me, DM me. I'm pretty flexible.

Jordan: Yeah. Thank you so much for coming on [Ji-Youn: Yeah]. And just sharing your thoughts and your wisdom with folks that are listening. I think that you have such an important voice. I know that you're talking about drawing from collective learnings and experiences. And there's a particular way that you can bring these into your own words [Ji-Youn: Mhm, yes] that can resonate with people in a very specific way.

Ji-Youn: Mhm, yeah. I was like, wait, I'm a writer? [laughs]

Jordan: Yeahhh

Ji-Youn: People said, “You're not creating these beautiful graphics on Instagram, Ji, like they're following you for your writing" and I'm like, "Oh".

Jordan: Yeah, yeah. Definitely follow her on Instagram. And thank you so much, Ji-Youn.

Ji-Youn: Thank you so much for having me.

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