Permission for Pleasure
A podcast to educate and equip women with the information and confidence they need to express, experience and enjoy their sexuality. Cindy Scharkey RN, BSN, brings her 35+ years of experience as a healthcare professional to open the doors to healthy conversations about sex. This is a community where you can listen and learn to give yourself permission for pleasure. Visit www.cindyscharkey.com for educational blogs and newsletter.
Permission for Pleasure
Why We Need to Talk About Pornography - Part 1
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Therapist Sam Tielemans joins me to discuss why we need to talk about pornography, not only in our relationships but also as parents with our kids. Part one of this conversation includes: information about unhealthy usage of pornography and that it usually isn’t about sex, what the average age of a child’s exposure is to porn (5:21), and how lies and deception break the attachment bond which may possibly cause betrayal trauma (8:25). We role play how to navigate the discussion with a partner and prompts to get you started (16:20).
Sam Tielemans is a licensed marriage and family therapist that specializes in helping couples overcome the effect of unhealthy porn use in their relationship, to rebuild trust, and improve their sexual intimacy.
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So sometimes people will minimize, like, oh, it's just in air quotes, right? It's just porn, it's just these pictures, and I don't know these people. They're looking at it on the wrong level because it's it's not the picture, it's the effect that it had on her and how she sees him and sees herself. That's the damage that's caused, not just the picture.
SPEAKER_00Welcome to Permission for Pleasure. I'm Cindy Sharkey, your host. Thank you for tuning in to listen today. I'm really glad that you're here. We are talking about pornography, which is a very big subject, and I know emotionally loaded for a lot of people. I also recognize that everyone has different views about pornography, and that said, it's still a subject though that needs to be discussed between couples, parents and their kids, even just with our own self. This is probably one of several conversations that we'll have on this subject. And today it's with Sam Thielmans, a therapist with a heart for couples who are struggling with unhealthy usage of porn in their relationship. But we also talk about tips for parents as well. I did break it up into two parts to make it easier for you to take in, think about, and start conversations of your own. I hope it serves you well. Sam, I'm glad to have you with me. Welcome to the show.
SPEAKER_01Thank you very much for having me. I'm looking forward to this conversation together.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, why don't you start with telling us just a little bit about yourself and your work in the world? Introduce yourself to us.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, sure. So I'm a licensed marriage and family therapist, and I live in Las Vegas, Nevada, and I've been working with couples specifically for about 10 years now. And I specialize in more of a like a niche area, which is helping couples overcome whether it's addiction or unhealthy usage to pornography and repairing their trust that's been broken in the relationship when that happens. And so I've just seen people and their relationships and marriages be destroyed because of secrets and deception and this unhealthy usage. And so a big part of what I like to do is help people get the tools that they need to know how to overcome this and overcome these habits, but also repair the relationship as well.
SPEAKER_00Beautiful. And I'm I'm curious what what do you think is the draw, the factors that draw people to an unhealthy usage of porn?
SPEAKER_01It's a great question. One thing that's so important to understand that many people don't really get on the surface is that when people struggle with an unhealthy habit or pattern of porn usage, it's not actually about sex. It's about escape. And so I think in the beginning, when people don't understand, sometimes I'll meet with a wife who just barely finds out that her husband's been struggling for the last decade and she had no idea about it. She instantly thinks, is it me? Am I not enough? Do we not have sex enough? Am I not pretty enough? She tends to think about herself as the problem when in reality it has nothing to do with her. It's not a sexual issue as much as it is his way of escaping and coping with what's going on on the inside for him. And so I think that there's just this draw there because, of course, these pleasure chemicals are released in the brain. It they're dopamine, oxytocin, these feel-good chemicals that once are released, it changes our state, which is the purpose of why people kind of get stuck in this web. It's like that's the purpose they're going to it to change their state. It feels good, it reinforces like, oh, if I'm feeling bad, I can turn to this thing and I'll feel better. So then over time, it just kind of develops into this habit. And sometimes people just have a very, very hard time breaking out of it because of the neurochemical aspect of it. And also just it develops into this habit of how they cope with life.
SPEAKER_00Yes. And so that's interesting for people to hear that often it's not really about sex. You're saying it's about escape.
SPEAKER_01100%. And I'm specifically referring to this group of people who struggle with it having developed into this habit or pattern where they're really having a hard time stopping. It's almost like this automatic response when pain comes up, or if they feel boredom, some kind of an uncomfortable emotion, or they get triggered in some way like that. It just kind of reminds me, it's like uh if Pavlov's dogs, right? It's like he rings the bell, the dog salivates. Through conditioning and experience, the body is primed to respond in a certain way. And so when somebody, when they're young, is introduced to porn, it feels good, it's confusing, it's shocking. The average age of exposure nowadays is between nine and eleven. And kids have no mind to process what they're seeing. So all they know is their body feels different and weird and curious and excited, and like all this stuff happens that continued exposure just kind of fuels these feelings and it feels good because that's how we're wired as people. So it becomes this way that so many people learn how to escape. So even though there's sexual acts that they're watching, it's not about that as much as they're just trying to change their state. And again, they just kind of get stuck in that habit loop because it gets reinforced because of how good it feels due to the chemicals, and then it just becomes this web that a lot of people struggle with.
SPEAKER_00Yes, and I I think it's so important for parents listening to hear about the age of exposure because so often when I teach workshops for parents, they they say, Well, I don't, you know, I don't need to talk about that yet, or I don't need to bring that up yet. And I completely disagree because we know from the studies and research that kids are being exposed earlier and earlier to pornography. And, you know, my big thing a lot of times is that I don't want that to be their source of sex education because it's it's karummy sex education, because it's entertainment. That's right. So it's so important, you know, for just to add that in a little caveat into this conversation, because I I think as much as we want to say, oh, it's not gonna happen, or I have my hand over my eyes, you can't see me, but it's like, oh, it's that's not gonna, you know, I don't need to deal with that yet. I think it's really important for listeners to hear, yes, yes, you do.
SPEAKER_01Yes, and just to kind of uh give a resource for people who are interested. So we have two kids, a six and a two-year-old. So by the time my daughter turned five, we started talking to her about this. And I think parents are thinking, like, well, how do you talk to a five-year-old? And at what age should I start talking to my kids? It should be very, very young because even so we don't give, we don't have like a tablet for our daughter, and it's like we're not really a techie family. But at school, when she gets older, even though she's not gonna have a phone at age eight, somebody else will. And if that has internet access, there's a possibility of exposure. So we started talking to her about five and you know, what to do when this happens, and just kind of priming her. And the resource that I always recommend to people is a book called Good Pictures, Bad Pictures. It's a phenomenal resource for parents to know how to approach a conversation with their kids because so often parents feel just awkward, they don't know what to say, they don't want to say too much. And it's just a it's a very age-appropriate resource to help parents know how to speak to a five-year-old in language that they can understand that isn't weird and doesn't feel awkward. So I always like to just kind of recommend that resource because it's it's such a good place for people to start.
SPEAKER_00I also really um I've seen that, and I also really like sex positive families resources. They have a lot of conversation prompts for this, a lot of information on their website for parents to start the conversation and how to do that. I I think, Sam, that when we give language out loud with our kids and have them, you know, act it out with us, like if you saw this, what what could you do? Okay, well, pretend I'm Susie and I show you this on my phone. What what do you think you would do? What could you say, you know, and and give them language and options to respond?
SPEAKER_01100% agree. I because I think once kids can go through it and they get some coaching and guidance and support, and it's kind of like you make it into something that that isn't weird, it really helps them to know what to do when the moment arrives because they've practiced it. So I agree 100% with that.
SPEAKER_00Great idea, parents. If you're listening, let's circle back to pornography use as adults. And I've heard you talk a little bit about attachment theory and just how uh uh you know, attachment theory works. And then in relation to a partner finding out, like you said, sometimes decades of use of porn, and then a partner coming across it and how that interacts with attachment theory. I'd love for you to speak to that because I think it's really important.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, so for those who are listening who might not be familiar with attachment theory, basically it describes how we are wired as human beings to seek connection with somebody else, right? We're here to attach or connect to a few significant other people, and that's the way that we're hardwired. We are built expecting that somebody else is going to be there in our life. And we start, of course, as kids with our parents. And so we develop this relationship, and that's it's a survival mechanism because if we didn't have a feeling or this inclination or yearning to bond with somebody else, then we're left on our own, and kids are so dependent for so many years for support. So nature has kind of hardwired this system into us so that we can lean on other people, and as we do, we are stronger individually when we're connected with others. It's a very interesting paradox, but self-esteem increases, depression decreases, anxiety decreases. There's like literally decades and decades of research about how critical it is that we're connecting with other people. With that as the backdrop, if you have a significant relationship or a marriage where that person is such a pillar in your world, and then you find out that person's attention is going somewhere else, and especially with an area that's so sensitive and personal, when you find out they're looking at somebody else, even though there is just like some people say, Well, that's not that big of a deal. It's just these images on the screen, there's no relationship there. Many, many women experience uh the betrayal of their husband. It goes both ways, but I'll just kind of for simplicity's sake say husband. Um women experience finding out about their husband's porn usage as betrayal and they feel as if it's cheating. And that's directly because of our connection with our spouse, and we kind of and we enter a relationship with them expecting that we're gonna be their person. And when they find out that they're looking at somebody else or something else, it's this betrayal to the bond, which is fundamental to what we expect in a marriage, which causes a sense of betrayal. It's a break in the trust. Again, I met with somebody just new a couple of days ago when she found out that her husband was viewing this. She then looks back at her whole history with him over 10 years and wonders has this all been a lie? Does he even actually want to be with me? Does he love me? He's looking at these other women, how could I be enough for him? So it just redefines everything because of this bond that we have with our spouse. And so it's very, very important to recognize that even though it's again, it's images on a screen, and some people will downplay that, the fact that your attention and your energy and your thoughts, emotion, whatever you're putting into that is going away from your spouse, that's a big part of what causes that that breach and that that disconnect and the breakdown there.
SPEAKER_00You're right, because you know, sex is so personal and it's so, it's almost like there's a person's sexual energy is going somewhere else and not to their partner. I would, I would think that would be how a lot of people would interpret that. That's kind of what you're saying. That doesn't feel good.
SPEAKER_01Mm-mm. Right? Even if you just imagine that, right? It's like you feel this, like, ah, that just like doesn't feel right. I don't like how that feels. I want to, like, this part of our relationship in particular should be reserved between me and him. Right? There's this, most people, right? Some people watch pornography together and it's not a problem for them. A lot of other people that it is a problem, and one person does it and the other person doesn't like it, and then it becomes an issue in the relationship.
SPEAKER_00Well, and I think because a lot of people don't talk about sex, then this issue gets to be really tricky. We talked about this in season one uh with Dr. Uchen Osai, of just that that people don't talk about sex. And so this pornography issue can come up, like you said, after years and years of it being in secret or not talked about. And then it's it's interpreted in the realm of silence and well, lies.
SPEAKER_01Yes. And I got an email from a client just two days ago. They're a new client, new couple that come in, and she said that after discovering this problem, it's it's painful that he's watching pornography, she says. But the thing that hurt her the most were the lies. And I've heard that countless times. It's the deception that goes with it, it's the dishonesty, it's the minimizing. They have conversation and he outright says, No, this is not a problem for me. And then she finds this whole history of like, it is a problem. It's just it's so devastating. Because again, it just speaks to this break in the bond and the lack of trust that's there now. Not only is he looking at this, but then he's covered it up and what else is he lying about and how long this has really been going on. It just really undermines everything and it makes her question everything, which is again such a it's a it's a there, there's a phrase that people, it's there's a phrase that's coined now called betrayal trauma, which is a way to describe what a spouse or a person in a relationship experiences as a result of finding out about her her his or her partner's pornography usage or infidelity. And it literally mirrors the symptoms of PTSD. It's intrusive thoughts, it's depression, it's rage, hopelessness, anger, despair. Physiologically, there's negative impacts on the body. So it's the same effect as a war soldier coming back, and you might think, like, well, how though? It's just pictures on a screen. That again, it's so important to understand. We're not talking about the pictures, it's the breakdown in the bond of the relationship. One time, I like sometimes I'll use this way to describe this. Like, imagine you have this window. I think in these like weird images and analogies. So, this is one of the ways that I've tried to describe this to people to help this make a little more sense. So imagine you have this window and you throw a massive brick through the window and it shatters it. It's like, oh, okay, that makes sense. The window broke and the brick is, you know, the brick caused the damage. But if you had a little pebble and you threw a pebble through the window and the window shatters, the thing that breaks the window is not relevant as much as the effect that it has. So sometimes people will minimize, like, oh, it's just in air quotes, right? It's just porn, it's just these pictures. And I don't know these people. They're looking at it on the wrong level. If a husband says it's just pictures, he's missing the whole point because it's the picture, it's it's not the picture, it's the effect that it had on her and undermining the relationship and how she sees him and sees herself. That's the damage that's caused, not just the picture.
SPEAKER_00And I'm thinking of the shattered glass, and that that picture is devastating. I mean, shattered glass is it's unclear, it's potentially very dangerous, it's cutting, it's I'm thinking of so many adjectives. What's a great word picture to use, Sam, because I just talked to so many women who are basically shattered, shattered over finding um this unhealthy usage of porn out with a partner. And I think you're right, a lot of it is about being lied to. And I think some something that just keeps resonating for me is that because people don't talk about sex, they don't talk about their porn usage, and then it ends up being, like you said, often years and years and years and years with no conversation. So then it's it's years and years of denying and lies.
SPEAKER_01That's right. And I think if people were to talk about this much, much sooner, and this is just a part of their conversation, you'll get a sense of what each person's expectations are and how they view it, and if there's a role for it in the relationship, because I have my own personal views on it. I don't think it's beneficial personally, but I don't superimpose that on clients that I work with. Like if they come in and say, like, we watch this and it's not a problem for us, we're here to communicate better, like, okay, great, let's spend time working on communication. So, though I have my personal views on it, if people have these conversations in their marriages, in their relationships, and can better understand how their partner feels, how their spouse feels, you can come up with like an understanding and some solutions. And how do you how do you deal with this and navigate this in the relationship? You can come up with understandings about like this is what I would prefer if you do watch it. I I want to be aware of what you're watching, or it's like, I don't want this in my marriage at all. And then we have to re-evaluate and make sure we're on the same page because again, without these conversations, like you're saying, Cindy, it's like it's people get lost in the dark, then lots of hurt feelings result because of the secrecy or the the lack of discussion about it.
SPEAKER_00So let's delve into that just practically. It could even look like, hey, I'd love to have a conversation about pornography. I know it's everywhere. I know we haven't, I'm just doing the scenario here. I know we haven't looked at it together, but is that something that you you look at on your own? I'm really I'm curious if it's part of your world. I mean, even opening the conversation that way rather than, are you looking at porn? I mean, I'm changing my tone and everything, because that puts the walls up. But even another scenario perhaps might be I know how common porn is. I'm sure you've watched it. I mean, at most everybody's seen something, right? How do you feel about pornography? I mean, do you, is it something that you're comfortable with, uncomfortable with? Let's let's have a discussion about it and how we would navigate that in our relationship. I'm just, I'm just saying, you know, you can talk about it in this kind of way to open the conversation and and let there be some dialogue back and forth about your values around it, right?
SPEAKER_01That's right. And I love how you're like that approach is perfect. And I'm glad that you kind of accentuated the difference in tone because the first time it was a very open, warm, like, hey, can we talk about this versus the next tone? Without saying it, it's like, if you're watching this, then I'm mad at you. This is a huge problem. You know, like it creates this negative energy of resistance, defensiveness, fear, which you can't have productive conversations when you're talking about things again, especially like this, with that energy. So I love that you're given a couple of examples. You know, somebody can also say, Hey, I was listening to a podcast and they were talking about porn and relationships, and we've never talked about that before. What are your thoughts on it? And then the conversation can open from there. And that's not to say that if you find out that the other person's using it and you're against it, you're gonna have some feelings with that. But in the conversation, you can share, okay, that, okay, if that's where you're coming from, this is how I experience this, this is how I see it, this is my preference. What do you think about that? You can have a dialogue to come to some understanding. But again, again, just like you demonstrated, if there's a negative energy there, that will be one of the last conversations that he'll be wanting to have because he knows this is a hot button topic. I don't want to fight, I don't want to say the wrong thing. Again, not to say that this is her fault. Even as I'm saying this right now, I don't want her to walk away thinking, like, well, I did get mad one time and now he doesn't talk to me. Is this my fault? No, it's not your fault. All we want to do is try to set up the conversation for success in the best possible way. And approaching it with that energy is a big part of that.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I love that idea too, of saying, hey, I listened to a podcast that takes it sort of to a more impersonal, you know, level and saying, this is a common, I know this is so common, and we've just never talked about it. And I was listening to these people talk about it on this podcast and thought, wow, that's something we should have a conversation about. To go into those kind of conversations also without thinking you're going to solve the whole thing or even come to a whole conclusion for your own self or relationship in one conversation, but to open the conversation, I meet with a lot of younger women who are wanting to understand, you know, where the people they're dating are at with pornography, and knowing that it's, you know, it's a really prevalent, unhealthy behavior for a lot of people. And them saying, How do I approach this? You literally have to open the conversation to be able to ascertain that information, right?
SPEAKER_01There's no other way, right? There's zero other way to understand whether the person thinks about it, how you feel about it, them making sure they understand you. Those conversations are absolutely critical. And being able to have those productively will make a huge difference in how the relationship progresses and helping you guys stay connected as things do arise, whether it's with this or something else. But this is a it's a it's a difficult topic for a lot of people because they feel uncomfortable and awkward. But again, bringing it up in these ways can help take away some of that the discomfort of it and can help you open up the door to just have multiple conversations. I think it's the same. Like when I think about parents, no longer like the days of the big T birds and the bees talk, the big T talk, those are gone now. You have to have multiple little T conversations. And I think with relationships, it's no different. And this can be a part of what you talk about occasionally when something comes up, or if a question comes up, or if a concern surfaces, I think just being more and more comfortable talking about this and bringing that energy to the conversation can definitely again set the tone for future conversations to keep going well.
SPEAKER_00I agree with that. This is really a tough topic and a touchy one. There I don't want people to listen here and think, you know, Sam and I have all the answers and one way is going to work for any one couple. What I want to do with this episode, Sam, is just open the conversation because it's such a prevalent issue in our culture and in our homes, and and I'm sure with the listeners. And I don't want to shy away from the harder conversations. I want to practice what I'm talking about here, which is saying open the conversation. And so that's what we're we're trying to do here. We'll pause here, friends, and continue our conversation in part two, where we get more practical for couples. I do hope you'll continue listening. Take a moment to rate and review the show on Apple and rate the show on Spotify to help others find our community. I'll meet you over in part two with Sam.
