Less Shame - More Sex Ed

Alex Liu, a health reporter and director of the documentary; A Sexplanation joins me for a conversation about why we need comprehensive sex ed. We talk about his experience growing up as a young gay man, the sexual silence and shame that almost destroyed him, and how he found freedom and belonging by going on a quest for the sex education he never got. We agree that there are a lot of questions about sex that are “unasked, unspoken and unanswered!” This episode will encourage individuals, partners and parents to ask, speak and answer those questions.

Learn more about Alex and A Sexplanation

Learn more about these topics

Why Sex Ed Really Matters with guest Kristen Mark
My letter to parents: You can be your child's sexual health educator
Conversations Starters for Parenting Partners
Childhood sexual abuse prevention: 2 tools for parents
Help! My child is starting sex ed at school

ORDER my Book: Permission for Pleasure: Tending Your Sexual Garden
JOIN my Newsletter: Good Education for Good Sex
FOLLOW on Instagram @cindyscharkey
VISIT my website and blog

Transcript

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SPEAKER_01 0:05

Welcome to Permission for Pleasure. I'm Cindy Sharkey, your host. I know I say it every time, but I am. I'm delighted you're here listening and learning. I hope that you are opening the doors to healthy conversations about sex in your own life through this podcast. Another way you can do that is through my monthly newsletter, Good Education for Good Sex. You can find the link to sign up for that in the show notes. I'd love to have you join me there. Today I'm having a conversation with Alex Liu, who's definitely opening the doors to healthy conversations about sex through his documentary, A Sexplanation. We get together here and chat about his own personal story as a gay man and the sexual silence and shame that almost took him out. He shares very personally and vulnerably in this interview as well as in the show how he found freedom and belonging through opening the conversation. So let's jump right in. Alex, welcome to the show.

SPEAKER_00 1:21

Thank you for having me. This is a pleasure.

SPEAKER_01 1:23

I'm delighted to have you here. And you know what's beautiful, Alex? I was thinking after watching your film that we're going to talk about on the show that you and I are doing the same thing just in different ways.

SPEAKER_00 1:36

Oh yeah?

SPEAKER_01 1:36

Yes, we're both trying to open doors to healthy conversations about sex.

SPEAKER_00 1:41

Yeah. It can be a challenge, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:44

It can be a challenge. So let's let's just let the listeners know a little bit about you. Just introduce yourself and tell us about your work in the world.

SPEAKER_00 1:52

Yeah, I'll try to make it short. I'm a science and health reporter who was doing a lot of stories around sex, sex education. But I think what I really wanted to do is tell a much deeper story about the sexual values and morals we all have and how maybe we haven't really taken the time to think them through in a way that actually serves us. And it took a long time convincing, but but eventually the movie's about my personal story of trying to unearth and really become present to sexual shame and figuring out what to do with it, because for most of my life I took those feelings and emotions and kind of turned them inward, which was very destructive. That's not to say, you know, it sounds maybe like a heavy movie, but what we really tried to do, and what I try to do in all my work is take really serious topics and make them as funny as possible. I think the best way to release shame is through humor. Hopefully, what came through in the movie is that even though we all maybe deal with sexual shame in some aspect of our life, if we can all kind of recognize and talk about it, it's actually a joyous way to live life.

SPEAKER_01 2:54

I agree 100% with that. Wow. I'm wondering, did you decide to make the film in some ways to learn in community or to share what you had learned with others?

SPEAKER_00 3:09

I think what was happening was so I'm a gay man and I think into my teens and 20s, I was just so angry. I was angry at this thing I couldn't control. I was angry that I had what in my mind at that time was this huge burden of a queer sexual identity that I didn't know how to deal with. I only saw pain and suffering as my future. And that rage really helped give my life meaning in my 20s. You know, I became a health reporter. I wanted people to understand the science and understand what actually healthy living looks like. I was on the front lines of the freedom to marry, you know, and I think it served a purpose, but by the time I hit 30, that rage had just kind of turned into exhaustion. And I think I realized that that anger was useful to mask the deep, deep-seated shame I still had on a very basic level, just communicating with partners about my sex life, talking to my parents about who I was fully as a human being, feeling like every interaction I had in my life had to be controlled or or suppressed in some way to fit in for survival. I realized at that point in my life that it was no longer serving me. In fact, it was destroying me. I think when you're at that point when you're just exhausted and all your old tricks don't work anymore, you start to try new ones, and and part of that was therapy, and then part of it was just talking to your friends, gay, straight, everyone in between, and realizing that we all had something that we really hadn't been brave enough to talk about. Community, I think, is a big reason that I I didn't expect it to be, but I think coming out of the film, it becomes so much more clear that being in community is one of the most transcendent experiences of being a human being. And there's no way you can truly get there if you aren't fully open, honest, vulnerable about who you are with the people around you. Because I wasn't that way with the people I loved, there was this big part of me that was missing, that was just kind of dead. And so I think I didn't expect it to be this way. I started the film kind of more in that place of anger, but by the end, it did become something where I realized that what I really wanted was belonging. And that's something you do have to work at no matter who you are.

SPEAKER_01 5:20

Yes, thanks for sharing that. I appreciated your vulnerability in the film and letting people see your surprise, your humor, your embarrassment, even. Just a real genuine curiosity about so many normal questions and topics about sex, because, like you say in the film, there's a silence message. Yeah. And I talk about that a lot on this show and on my platform, and you said it clearly. There's a lot of questions about sex that are unasked, unspoken, and unanswered.

SPEAKER_00 5:57

Yeah, we all just live life. I think it's that the patterns are set so early in our lives to not talk about these things. And when you do talk about them, especially as a child, the adults in your life freak out. And that's not to blame them. That's just kind of how we all are. That's kind of the culture that we grew up in. And when you learn very early that certain topics will freak out the adults in your life, you just learn to shut that down. And I'm curious what brought you to this, if you don't mind me kind of flipping the interview a little bit, what brought you to this part? I'm always interested in like everyone's story and how they got to a place where they feel like they need to be not only open with the people in their lives around pleasure, but like kind of the world.

SPEAKER_01 6:35

Yeah. Thanks for asking. I'm a nurse. I've been a nurse for 36 years or forever. And I did a lot of women's health and education for women and couples around childbirth, childbearing, postpartum, and just all things women's health. There was so much silence and lack of education. And I found that I really loved teaching and speaking and coming alongside women in their journey to be educated and be able to enjoy their sexuality and to be able to experience pleasure and give themselves permission for that. Oh, that's and thus the podcast permission for pleasure. So I'm at a place in my life, Alex, where I can do this as a passion project and maybe somewhat kind of like the film you made, you know, just to bring others into a community of breaking the silence.

SPEAKER_00 7:33

Yeah. And it's one of the stats that breaks my heart when I see in the film is that, and and I get it, you know, I most girls never learn what a clitoris is, or even hear that word later in life. And I mean, I didn't hear that word probably until I was my late teens. And I think just how much I've accepted as normal and fine, uh, not knowing about myself, not talking about these things, not understanding who I am and being vulnerable on that spot. It's like daily work pushed past those boundaries because they're just so, so deep-seated and always be part of who I am. But I feel like recognizing it early and often and better and better, and practicing and doing the work, even if it hurts, sometimes my life has just expanded in a way. It's hard to describe, but I feel like I'm able to actually connect with people on a very real level in a way I've never had before.

SPEAKER_01 8:24

That's beautiful to hear because it's hopeful for people listening that they're talking about these hard topics. And I'm not saying sex is it's easy for me to talk about. Okay, but not everybody, and I recognize that it's hard. Yeah, sometimes you have to lean into the difficult, you know, you have to get comfortable being uncomfortable. Right. And then what you're saying is look what can happen, you know, when you push past that. That's beautiful to hear. You shared just in the film how detrimental to your mental health, and you said here even all that silence and shame was you called it a path of guilt and isolation, and it breaks my heart. And there's so many who feel in the same place. You were not alone in that.

SPEAKER_00 9:12

Yeah. I think a lot about the children who are experiencing their body, experiencing pleasure, orgasm for the first time, and it is a moment of terror for them. It is a moment of confusion and fear. And that's just such a heartbreaking way to be introduced to one of the most beautiful, transcendent parts of the human experience. You know, whatever values you have around that, I don't begrudge anyone for the cultural values they have. As long as, you know, they're not hurting anyone. It's something that we can discuss. Everyone's in a totally different place. That's just kind of a factor of the luck of the draw, where they were born, when they were born, that sort of thing. I hope that we can in having these conversations, especially parents, that then when they really think about it, you know, how do they want their child's first sexual experiences to go? And I get that it's difficult to think about. I get that it's hard to think of your children sometimes as sexual beings. I do think that sex, pleasure, the relationships you form around sex and pleasure are going to be the ones that you know stick with you down your deathbed. You know, they're they're gonna be the ones that mean the most in your life. And to think that so many people, especially Americans, go through the first five, ten years of their life terrified of this part of themselves. I think that's something we have to move past if we have any chance of becoming a truly modern society.

SPEAKER_01 10:36

You brought up several things there. I remember you interviewing some educators in the film. I just kept hearing myself, you know, saying the same things. Preload the information, you know. As you're saying here, people need to understand and have the education about their sexual health before they need to know it.

SPEAKER_00 10:57

Yeah, it's hard, I think. I get it. You know, when I first started going to these sex ed classes with, you know, some of them pretty young, seven, eight, nine-year-olds, and the instructor starts talking about masturbation, starts talking about what does sex feel like. I think because of my own ignorance, I tensed up, it was very uncomfortable. I thought these kids weren't ready for it. But you realize that one, most kids have no interest in sex at all. You know, it disgusts them, um, but they're curious about it. They want to know the answers. It is part of being a human that you have this innate curiosity about how the world works. We think, we keep information from them, if we keep them quote unquote innocent, that's somehow that will keep them safer. It'll keep them from being like out of control. And it's hard to get people to understand this because I don't think it's very intuitive, but the exact opposite is true, you know, that if you fill your child's head with either ignorance or lies or mythology, your kids won't learn to be chaste. They will just learn at a certain point that you are not a trustworthy source of information. They will just learn that you are uncomfortable and not someone who they can turn to when they have real questions. And they will fill that information, that curiosity with possibly worse things, whether that's pornography, asking their peers, you know, it's the alternative to no sex education is not, you know, innocent children. It's ill-informed and children who take bigger risks. I just hope through the film I can convince some parents to see that this is something that they have to tackle, whether they like it or not.

SPEAKER_01 12:32

The research proves that out. We've had some episodes on this show with the researchers and them telling us exactly how important the comprehensive sex education piece is. And if you ask most sex educators, and you did on the show, what's going to decrease the shame? What should we do? What was their answer, Alex?

SPEAKER_00 12:55

It's all comprehensive sex.

SPEAKER_01 12:56

Comprehensive sex, every single one of them said the same. And it's true, and that's what we do want to keep reminding parents. You are their first educator, and sometimes their only educator, if you choose to be. And if you can demonstrate a willingness over and over again to be open, non-judgmental, to listen, to ask questions, to not wait for them to come to you, yeah, but offer over and over, even if it feels uncomfortable or even if they act weird. That doesn't mean you act weird. How weird was it you interviewed your parent your own parents in the film? I couldn't believe it.

SPEAKER_00 13:42

That was definitely uh an awkward conversation, especially at the beginning. But I think towards the end, we open and close the movie with with a conversation with my parents. And I think you can see the last conversation is just so much more engaging and we're so much more connected. I had already done all the work, you know, to get to that point of understanding that the sexual shame in my life served really no purpose other than to disconnect me from the people in my life. What you don't see in the film is, you know, the years and years of discussions. It wasn't easy to get there. I tell the story that my dad, when I first came out to him, his kind of first reaction was the idea of two men being intimate disgusted him to his core. But to his credit, he was very clear that that should never stop me from loving who I am, and he would do what he could to get over that. And you know, 15 years later, he's marching in gay pride parades, going to gay bars, it's it's totally not a non-issue. And I think it just speaks to, again, kind of the work that is difficult. There's tons of screaming, crying, silence between us. You know, it took 15, 20 years to get to this point. If you're willing to work through the shame and take the time to understand that and not let the shame control you and be intentional about the relationships you want and be open and vulnerable in ways you haven't before, at least in my experience with parents who who do love me, who have shown over and over again they love me and are safe and trustworthy, I never imagined. I see my parents now so much more as full, three-dimensional human beings. I see an aspect to the relationship I had never imagined, this playful, romantic, silly, sexy kind of bond they have that we've never really, they've never really let out and I've never really seen. And so I think understanding who they are as people and them understanding who I am as a person fully. I say this also that you know, boundaries are important. You know, I think you have to keep strict boundaries on both ends uh for a healthy relationship. Just the fullness now and the lightness to our relationship is in a place that 20 years ago I I could have never imagined. In a way, being open about sexuality is not talking about sex and sexuality all the time, it's just letting go of that weight that you often have around that. And once that weight is gone, it's amazing how the rest of the relationship fills in with so much more life and and beauty.

SPEAKER_01 15:57

Yes, I really appreciated you modeling that on camera. I mean, you did the role reversal because you initiated the talk, right? It's really unknown for so many families, Alex. There just is none of that. And so you modeling that in the film, it was fascinating to watch. I mean, as someone probably your parents' age, it just reminds me again to keep encouraging, as you are parents, to have a million conversations over your child's lifetime so that when you get to adulthood and get in this place where you're talking about, Alex, you can have this open and free and really lovely relationship as adults together.

SPEAKER_00 16:46

Yeah, it's again, it's work, but it's so worth it.

SPEAKER_01 16:49

Yes. And you even brought up, I couldn't believe it, Alex. You brought up desire discrepancy with your parents and frequency at the end of the film. I'm thinking, okay, he really did come full circle because that's literally the number one issue between most couples. We don't know how they land.

SPEAKER_00 17:06

You know, I I think it's something that I'm curious about. You know, what problems are they experiencing later in life? I'm 10 years into a relationship, and you know, if they're you know, as you get older, the there are fewer and fewer people you trust to talk about these very intimate private uh issues. Why not go to the people who I think will be the most honest with me, you know, and who know me the best to help navigate some of the most tricky, tense moments in a marriage. It's just been so wonderful to kind of in a way discover my parents as friends rather than, you know, it's still always gonna be complicated, but I think the friendship that we're creating now is something I never would have imagined starting this program.

SPEAKER_01 17:46

I do think back to what you said at the beginning about using humor to disarm and be able to help people receive information that's sometimes scary, right? And is surrounded in a lot of silence. And you do have some funny things in the film. And I get it, like my audience, it may not be for everybody, just like I'm not for everybody, right? I just picture how well you disarmed the topic and that there will be a lot of people that can take some things with them and really start that unraveling process. I hope. I hope so. I mean, after everything you learned and absorbed doing this documentary, if there was like one or two of your biggest takeaways to tell, well, maybe one for young people and one for parents, what would you say?

SPEAKER_00 18:40

Yeah, that that's a great question. I I think the one lesson I would have wished I told my younger self, other than come out earlier, would probably be figure out how you can be a safe space for the people in your life. I think for so long I was so mad at the world for not creating a safe space for me. I projected that anger out towards people in a way that turned me into exactly what I hated. I think if you were to meet 25-year-old me and say something like, you know, I'm a gay man, but I don't think I like anal sex or I actually believe in monogamy or all these different things, I think I would have come down so hard on you and told you how you are, you know, a repressed homophobe and internalized homophobia and you're letting the Catholic Church win because I was so angry and I needed everyone around me to share my beliefs, I was becoming someone who was shaming, kind of just in the opposite direction, right? And so I think one of the things, if you're dealing with a lot of anger and shame around your sexuality, you don't know what to do with in a way that I just learned in my 30s, is basically that if what I want from the world is to listen non-judgmentally, respect my humanity, the only way I can get that is if I am willing to do the same, even when people I disagree with, don't like people who uh maybe are saying things that I deem hateful and hurtful. The only way that I can see a future in which I have that community I want is just practicing and it's work, it's uh emotionally exhausting and all that. But to sit and hold my judgments, hold my bias, as validate the humanity of the person, not the ideas, not what they're saying, not their beliefs, but the humanity of others as much as you can. I've just been so surprised how that's helped me create what I've wanted all along, which is that feeling of belonging. That when people see you as that non-judgmental safe space, and I mean non-judgmental in all forms from there's one thing about protecting your physical safety, like don't put people in your life who are violent. But I think for the people who you care about and the people you love or the people you like to know, as much as you can to be that space for them, you'd be amazed. That's all people really want is to be heard, and how much being heard can help them for the first time in their lives empathize with another idea that they've never considered. And I think that's been practicing empathy and how do you get empathy from others, that's been a great lesson from this film. And I think for parents, your kids can handle a lot more than you think. And same for kids, actually, your parents can handle a lot more than than you think. If you're scared that your you know your kid better than anyone, I don't want to give too much parental advice. I'm not a parent, but but I think I've been surprised over and over and over again what going to these classes with parents and kids, how much they all want to talk about this, uh, but the parent is scared the kid can't handle it, and the kid is scared that the parent can't handle it. You know, it's not to say you need to have like one talk and you're good. That's like a bad script that we have, cultural script we have. Um, but but it is just like you said, Cindy, a constant, short conversation, million times in the life. I think it's funny, for example, with classes when it's like, what does masturbation feel like? And I tense up because I think, oh my God, these kids are too young, blah, blah. And then the parent says, Oh, it feels good. Good, blah, blah, blah. And then the kid goes, Oh, that's weird. And then they just move on to the next. Like it's really stepping stones.

SPEAKER_01 22:05

Conversations of stepping stones.

SPEAKER_00 22:08

They're not really interested in it until they're interested in it. And so I think if you wait to the point that they are interested in it and you've never talked about it, then it's too late. You know your kid, but I think you'll be amazed how much they're able to handle.

SPEAKER_01 22:22

I'm so proud of you, Alex. For the work the work and the journey you've been on and how you've shared it to help others decrease their shame, help others have community, help others have the ability for some language around it. We need all these tools. I'm proud of you for the work you've done here.

SPEAKER_00 22:45

Oh, thank you.

SPEAKER_01 22:46

And I'd love for you to tell people how they can connect with you and find what you're doing and connect with your film.

SPEAKER_00 22:53

Yeah. So if you go to asplanation.com, all one word, you'll you'll be able to find where you can watch right now, uh, worldwide. And if you follow me on all the social platforms at a sexplanation one word, uh you're keeping track uh of different things we're gonna do. We're gonna have some fun Instagram lives later, we're gonna have some fun events and things around the world. To your point you just said, Cindy, I I think you know, the more we can all be open and vulnerable with the people in our lives around sex sexuality, the the better sex will be for everyone. And I think isn't that a worthwhile goal to try to pursue because the world is is hard enough.

SPEAKER_01 23:29

Absolutely. And because the world's hard enough on this show, Alex, we share something that makes you pause and notice and take delight day to day. Anything that just brings you pleasure. Could you share something that does that for you in your life day-to-day?

SPEAKER_00 23:47

Oh, there's so much. I think I'm now just so attuned to the fact that pleasure in and of itself is a worthwhile goal to pursue. But I think when I'm really depressed, or if I'm sad or thinking about these things, what I'm grateful for is I just feel so lucky that the people in my life were willing to sit down with me, go through this journey, bear themselves. Who am I to actually have that kind of privilege in life? And to be able to talk to people like you, talk to people like everyone I interviewed in the film. It's the making of a movie to be frank, is mostly suffering. But the people you meet along the way, and the way I see people now, I think. In the past, I used to see people so much as like interacting with others. First and foremost, I had to protect my own safety. And so I hid and I repressed, and it was in and out, just get what you need from that conversation and leave. But now I feel like meeting people, I see people in the sexual beauty we all have in a way I never had before. And it just makes every interaction I have just that much more connected and present. And I feel like there was tons of suffering, but to get to this point in my life, uh, it was all worth it because when you see the world as a fountain of beauty, every moment you have the capacity to feel pleasure, and what a gift.

SPEAKER_01 25:16

What a gift. Yes. Thanks so much for being with us, Alex.

SPEAKER_00 25:21

Oh, thank you. Thank you.

SPEAKER_01 25:23

And community, let's look for the pleasure and the connection.

SPEAKER_00 25:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 25:31

I think as we do that and as we educate and as we live in community with one another towards this goal of connectedness, vulnerability, and belonging, we will learn to give ourselves more permission for pleasure.