Permission for Pleasure
A podcast to educate and equip women with the information and confidence they need to express, experience and enjoy their sexuality. Cindy Scharkey RN, BSN, brings her 35+ years of experience as a healthcare professional to open the doors to healthy conversations about sex. This is a community where you can listen and learn to give yourself permission for pleasure. Visit www.cindyscharkey.com for educational blogs and newsletter.
Permission for Pleasure
Misconceptions Men Believe About Sex
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I invited Sheila Gregoire back to break down what women actually want from their male partners in bed. Sharing excerpts from her book, The Good Guy’s Guide to Great Sex, we debunk myths about the magic penis, mental load, foreplay, female arousal, and orgasm. Learn some practical ideas for increased pleasure and better sex!
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Learn more about Sheila's work
More on these topics
Ep 29 on arousal with Sheila
Sexual Scripts
Mental Load
Foreplay
Female Arousal
The Clitoris
Pleasure Techniques
Questions about orgasm
Mindfulness
Pleasure practice
ORDER my Book: Permission for Pleasure: Tending Your Sexual Garden
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There's a lot of women out there who think I am broken, and there's a lot of men out there, and they're thinking, Well, look, I know how to have the sex. The sex is working for me. We do the sex thing, and I enjoy it, so I am good at sex. So if she's not enjoying it, she needs to catch up.
SPEAKER_01Welcome to Permission for Pleasure. I'm Cindy Sharkey, your host. I'm glad you tuned in to listen today. This is such a great community and it delights me to see it growing. Thank you. Thank you for sharing these conversations with your friends. Thank you for sending them your favorite episodes. I love too how many of you have signed up for my educational newsletter. That link is always in the show notes for you. We are gonna talk about a book for men today and how appropriate. This episode is sponsored by Manscaped. Manscaped is a male grooming company. They offer the best in below-the-waist grooming with their precision engineer tools and advanced skin safe technology. All for those sensitive areas. They recently launched the ultimate hygiene bund for men. Or for the man in your life. It's called the Performance Package. I was pretty impressed with this package. It includes their Lawnmower 4.0 trimmer, weed whacker ear and nose hair trimmer, and along with several other goodies. The good news? They are waterproof. I appreciate their partnership with the testicular cancer society. And you should see all that they include in this performance bundle. It's quite a collection of the right tools for the job, and they have an exclusive offer for you. 20% off and free worldwide shipping with code PLESURE. Find the link in the show notes to try Manscaped at manscaped.com. Now I'd like to introduce our guest. Today I'm bringing back Sheila Ray Gwegar. So many of you messaged about her first episode and how much you appreciated the topics that we covered. That was episode 29 with Sheila, and it jumped into our top five episodes pretty quick. I hope this conversation is the more that you've been asking for. While Sheila's work is primarily with heterosexual married couples, most of what we talk about in this episode is for any and all of us. Because of course, we're discussing female pleasure. So I'm glad you're here listening. Sheila, welcome back to Permission for Pleasure. Great to be here, Cindy. I'm so glad to have you back. And for those who are newer to my listening community, or maybe they missed our first conversation in episode 29, why don't you reintroduce yourself briefly and your work in the world?
SPEAKER_00Sure. So I have been writing, podcasting, speaking about marriage and sex since around 2008. I started out as a mommy blogger. The more I wrote about sex, the more my traffic grew. So I ended up using a lot of my post-grad education in sociology of family and public health to start doing a lot more research about sex. And what I found is that it doesn't matter how much healthy advice you put out there in the universe if people are still believing unhealthy stuff. I kind of became the person that dismantles all the unhealthy stuff in order that people can assimilate the actual good stuff. So our team has done some incredibly large surveys. We did one of 20,000 predominantly evangelical women to look at how some toxic teachings have affected them. And those teachings are pretty much everywhere in society, too, not just in that microcosm. And then we followed up with some other surveys of men as well, just to identify okay, here are the problems. Now what can we do about it?
SPEAKER_01Love that. I love that because it's so needed. And today we're going to talk about one of your new books that you wrote with your husband, Keith. He is a physician, right?
SPEAKER_00Pediatrician. He's a pediatrician, so this isn't really his thing, but we've been speaking at marriage conferences forever.
SPEAKER_01And so uh so it is his thing, right? And you called this book for men called The Good Guy's Guide to Great Sex. Yep. So why this book and why now?
SPEAKER_00Well, it had a companion book. So I wrote the female version of it, Good Girl's Guide to Great Sex, 10 years ago. I've since totally revamped it. But we just realized we gotta stop only talking to women because we need guys to jump on board with this too. Women can only do so much. You know, if if women want to feel good during sex, if we want to actually have a healthy marriage, a healthy relationship, a healthy sex life, we women can take it so far, but we need our partners to understand what healthy looks like as well and what real intimacy looks like.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I love that. And I'm hoping that this episode will be one that men feel they can listen to, or couples could listen to together, or a woman could listen to and then have language, you know, to talk to, especially a male partner. Wow, we could talk about a lot of things out of this book, but I do want to start with the sexual scripts piece because this is what you referred to earlier is the things people believe that are not correct and that we absorb. We just swallow, we take in, we're marinating in it, right? And uh how female sexuality works according to some of these scripts, and you call it out in the book, it's so misinformed. So let's start there, Sheila, with this. You called it how a certain blueprint and checking off boxes that somehow men think and have been fed this notion that that's the key to female sexual pleasure.
SPEAKER_00Right. And you know, you read all these articles, you'll buy GQ, you'll buy Maxim, whatever, and it'll tell you like 10 ways to turn her on. And they're all like, you know, touch the clitoris, do this to the clitoris. And so they're like, Yes, I did that, and nothing's working. And so obviously, I am doing my part. So I am doing the thing I'm supposed to do. So the problem's with her. Yes. This is the script. Yeah. And we actually measured this. So we asked men, do you do enough foreplay? And we also asked women, does your husband do enough foreplay? So, same question, just to two different groups. When women frequently reach orgasm, you know, over I think it's like 94% of men say, Yes, I do, and about 88% of women do. So even if they frequently reach orgasm, they want more. Okay. But you know, very, very high numbers say yes, he does enough foreplay. When women do not reach orgasm very often, 71% of men still say they do enough foreplay. But here's the other part so do 52% of women. So we've internalized this idea that he's doing all he can. The problem is she is broken. And there's a lot of women out there who think I am broken, and there's a lot of men out there, and they're thinking, well, look, I know how to have the sex. The sex is working for me. We do the sex thing, and I enjoy it. So I am good at sex. So if she's not enjoying it, she needs to catch up. There's something wrong with her. She's the one who's broken because I'm doing all the right things that the book says to do. And what they're missing is the whole idea of a sexual response cycle, that it isn't a checklist at all. It's understanding her body, it's working with her body, but it's also at the much bigger level, paying attention to what's going on in your relationship. So tell me more about that. Well, she is not gonna feel pleasure if she doesn't feel safe. And I don't just mean safe from abuse, although that's a huge, a huge part. And we also found that 16% of women reported that their main emotion after sex is feeling used. Oh. 18% of women said that their main motivation for sex is to prevent him from being unpleasant or doing something harmful to her. So that's bad.
SPEAKER_01Uh-huh.
SPEAKER_00And if that's where you are, okay. You don't need pleasure, you need safety. So, you know, you're likely in an abusive relationship, and the reason that your sex life isn't working is because of that. So please call a domestic abuse hotline, seek out a licensed professional therapist, you know, get some help. But beyond that, there's also a level where you can feel unsafe even if the relationship isn't necessarily abusive. And by that I mean I just don't feel valued for who I am. I feel pressured to perform. I feel taken for granted. So she has all of these things going on in her head, trying to keep track of your mother who has a doctor's appointment in two days that I need to take her to. Johnny tomorrow has karate at four. Um, but Melissa has a special piano practice to get ready for the recital at the same time. And so I've got to figure out someone to carpool Johnny. And meanwhile, I've got a presentation at work on third, you know, and all these things are going through your head, and you're thinking, okay, what am I going to make for dinner tomorrow night? I got to take it out of the freezer. And so if she is bearing the majority of the mental load, it's very difficult to make room for sex. So there's these relationship dynamics where you may have more of the mental load. There's the relationship dynamics where you may feel that he thinks I'm just here to meet his sexual needs and that he has needs. I don't have needs, but he has needs because he's a guy. So there's all those dynamics, which really contribute to whether she feels desire at all. But then there's the actual dynamics of when it comes down to it, when you are both there and you're in the bedroom or wherever you are, and how do we understand how our bodies work? Because I think that we often expect women's bodies to act like men's bodies. Yes. So if we look at the sexual response cycle, if a woman is going to get to orgasm, well, actually, if anyone is going to get to orgasm, there's certain different stages that they go through to get there. There's excitement, there's arousal, there's plateau when you're almost there, but you just need the same amount of stimulation, and then you're gonna go over the edge, and then there's orgasm. Okay, so there's those four things. But for men, the first three look almost identical. They're really not that different. So when he gets excitement, you know, he gets an erection, he's ready for intercourse pretty much right away. The erection may get thicker, it may get harder as he goes along and as he gets more aroused, but it looks pretty much the same thing. For women, they're very distinct stages, much more so than a guy. You know, excitement for women is like I'm starting to breathe a little heavier, I'm starting to feel a little bit tingly, but you're just starting to get warmed up. And then arousal is when you're actually getting lubricated, you might feel sort of like a tugging or pulling sensation in your nipples, in your clitoris, in the genital areas. That's when you actually want to be touched in the genital area. If you start going after her clitoris before she's even excited, it's gonna feel like a pap smear. You know, like she's gotta be at least a little bit turned on first. And so it's really important that you understand where she is in the sexual response cycle. Like, start with kissing, spend some time warming up in that excitement phase, you know, spend some time nibbling behind her ears, all of that, because I think often couples move far too fast to things that would work if she's already quite aroused, but they don't get her aroused in the first place.
SPEAKER_01Yes, and I love the way you put this in the book. It was either you or Keith that the problem you said is usually not that couples are using wrong techniques as much as that they're skipping important steps. Exactly. And then you went into this whole idea of progression, this technique of progression. I really feel the same with you that if people understood that and understood this excitement and arousal piece for women, they would stop reducing sex, as you said, to a series of boxes, like some kind of pre-flight checklist, you know. And this is really important for people to hear.
SPEAKER_00I think part of the issue too is that we think of sex like intercourse. Like we assume sex is intercourse. And so that pre-flight checklist is all the things he's got to do in order to get to intercourse. So, because intercourse is the main thing. For most women, intercourse is not the main thing. So we found that about 48% of women almost always or always reach orgasm during a sexual encounter. But of those women, only about 40% do it through intercourse. Most find another route to orgasm far more reliable. And even those who do reach orgasm through intercourse need a lot of foreplay. This idea that intercourse is the main thing means that her sexuality is seen as somehow less than his.
SPEAKER_01Yes.
SPEAKER_00I think what is happening is because we stress intercourse and we think I like to call it the myth of the magic penis. Okay, we have this myth where as long as he is giving her his penis, he is giving her this incredible gift. Like he is doing his part, and she should be grateful. But we have over 52% of women who do not reach orgasm reliably. This is a big problem. And I like to flip the script a little bit. So, can we do the dinner party analogy, like the going out to dinner analogy? Because I think people relate to this one.
SPEAKER_01Yes, we did this on the last episode, but let's revisit it quickly here. Go ahead, hit it.
SPEAKER_00Okay, so let's imagine a couple, we'll call them Tracy and Doug, and what they've been told is that what Tracy really needs to feel loved and to feel cherished in their marriage is to go out to dinner once a week. And so our intrepid couple goes to this restaurant and they order their food, and pretty soon the waitress comes with Tracy's French onion soup, but nothing comes for Doug. And so Tracy is eating the soup, she declares it amazing, and as she's eating, they're having a wonderful conversation about vacation and about the kids. And then the waitress brings Tracy's steak and baked potato, and she loves it, but nothing comes for Doug. And they're still having a great conversation, but Doug's getting really hungry. And then the waitress brings Tracy's molten lava cake. It is perfect. And just as she's about halfway through, the waitress finally brings Doug's chicken wing appetizer, and he eats one, and he eats two, and he eats three. And just as he's reaching for the fourth, Tracy stands up and says, Oh my goodness, that was so good. I just love going to dinner with you. And she heads for the door. And so Doug stands up and walks along with her, looking back forlornly at the remaining three chicken wings still on his plate. And they do this every week for 10 years. And how is Doug gonna feel eating at restaurants?
SPEAKER_01Not too excited.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, and how many women? That's the same thing is happening, and yet we think, well, I mean, we're supposed to have sex in marriage, we are having sex, and so what is she complaining about? But the problem is there is just because you're having intercourse does not mean it's doing anything for her.
SPEAKER_01Right. You have to enjoy the sex you're having, and pleasure is a big piece of that.
SPEAKER_00When he needs to give her sex that she can enjoy, and that is not entirely on him. I am quite aware that there are some women who just have, you know, some major roadblocks that aren't on him. Maybe they've got sexual trauma in their past, um, maybe they grew up with a lot of sexual shame, maybe they've internalized some negative messages. But can I just say to the guys, even if you would love to spend more time on foreplay, even if you would love to bring her to orgasm, and she's the one who says, no, it's okay, just go ahead. Just go ahead. I want to give this as a gift to you. If you let her give you a gift for years, what are you showing her? You're showing her sex isn't for her. Every single time you have sex when she doesn't reach orgasm or when she feels no pleasure, you solidify the idea that sex is for you and not for her. And so even if you would love to do something else, and she's telling you just go ahead. Don't just go ahead.
SPEAKER_01Because these are the sexual scripts that women have taken in, right? That you're calling it out right here that foreplay is extra, not really necessary, right? Or that sex is just intercourse, like we said, or that you know, this idea that men will be sad or unhappy or depressed if they don't orgasm on a regular basis, you know, that kind of these scripts that all these women take in, me included, and we wonder why everyone keeps saying women have low libido.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, exactly. And I think another big one is well, he has needs and you need to meet his needs. And they don't talk about how, well, she may have needs too, but she just may not experience those needs because they've been so artificially lowered because of all of these scripts. And so, you know, I would just say to couples in the in that situation, if she's not experiencing pleasure, make this something that you both try to get to the bottom of, that you get to the bottom of as a couple. You don't blame it on her. You know, you know, you don't say she's broken. You say, look, as a couple, how can we work this out? And maybe it means taking intercourse off the table for 60 days and just working on other things. Maybe it means just doing non-sexual touch for a while just to prove to her that you can handle it, you know, that that you're not just using her. I don't know what it is. Every couple will be different. The status quo where he gets pleasure at her expense and she thinks, well, at least I'm meeting his needs. What we found is that women can put up with that for like 10, 15 years, but then eventually something just breaks and they can't do it anymore. And that's often when marriages become sexless. But really, from her vantage point, it's been sexless for years. Because having intercourse that brings you no pleasure and makes you feel used, that's actually worse than a sexless marriage.
SPEAKER_01I just love how you call this out the truth of it, in just really frank language, Sheila, because we know, I mean, working with women, that this is what's going on in their heads and in their homes. And yet so often it's not talked about. And then they have this mantra, like you're saying, which is I'm not normal or I'm I'm broken, and that's not the truth. Let's zero in on orgasms and timing, because I think this is an important piece for men and women to understand and reframe, which you did very clearly in this book for men, about why do women take so long to orgasm? Well, they don't take so long, right? They just take longer than men. Exactly. So let's let's talk about that.
SPEAKER_00The average woman who does reach orgasm regularly can get there, and I think it's 22 minutes or something. And the average man can get there in like seven. So if the average man took 45 minutes, women would look like rockets. So it's not that women take a long time, it's just that they take longer than him, and that doesn't mean there's anything wrong with that. I think what both men and women don't understand often too, though, is that for sex to work best, both of you need to concentrate on what she is feeling.
SPEAKER_01She comes first.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, well, and and not only that, like yes, but I've read so much advice where you know, I was talking to the couple, it's like everyone just needs to concentrate on what they can give, you know, and that sounds really nice. That sounds very unselfish. The only thing is, what some modern studies have shown is that the more she focuses on her own pleasure as opposed to what she is doing to him. So the more she focuses on what her body is feeling, not trying to judge whether she's turning him on enough. Because a lot of us do that, right? Are we being sexy enough? Are we doing this exactly the right way? Do we look stupid doing this? Whatever. But the more women focus on what our bodies are feeling, the more likely it is that we'll reach orgasm. It's like practicing mindfulness, becoming fully embodied, you know, when you are making love, really focus, really honing in on what your body is feeling. But likewise, if men are focused on what her body is feeling, so if men really tune in to where she is on the sexual response cycle and figuring out what she likes as opposed to thinking about what they are feeling, they are more likely both to last longer and to give her an orgasm. So this idea that we both need to be selfless doesn't exactly work. It's actually that in order for the best sex, you both are supposed to focus on her because he's gonna get there anyway, 95%. He's gonna get there.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. So, men listening, do you hear that? I mean, this is the this is the key. I mean, I've seen this fleshed out in my work with women all these years. And also, you get a very much more enthusiastic and engaged partner. And these are the kinds of things that lead to fantastic sex.
SPEAKER_00Mm-hmm. Yeah, which is the school, right? Yeah. And when he focuses on how much he's enjoying himself, most guys enjoy that a lot more anyway. So, like really working on for women especially, practicing mindfulness. So, practicing, like as you're making love, think to yourself, what wants to be touched right now? You know, what is feeling really good right now? Because he could be doing something to you. And if your mind is wandering, if you're thinking about the grocery list, it doesn't matter if he is like Leonardo da Vinci on your clitoris. Like it doesn't matter if he's doing, like if he's Beethoven, like if he's doing the best thing, if he's the best artist in the world, if your mind is wandering, it won't register. And I think what a lot of us do is we start sex and we think, well, once it gets good, then I'll start focusing. But we have to train our minds to focus because it's only when you focus for many women that it actually does feel good. Now that's not true for every woman. There's some women who just are naturally more orgasmic than others. And there's all kinds of reasons for that. But I'm assuming those women aren't listening to this podcast or aren't necessarily needing the kind of advice in this particular episode.
SPEAKER_01So well, and I think the reason I this that goes along with this, the reason I named this podcast Permission for Pleasure is that I've found as a nurse over you know so many years that women are hard-pressed to give themselves permission to receive pleasure. And that's a big piece to this puzzle.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_01If it is a puzzle, I think that if men understood that piece alone and just the self-consciousness and the upbringing of not being a receiver as a woman, but being a giver. And this plays into sex in a big, big way with couples.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, because there are a lot of guys who honestly, like I've heard from them, they would love to do more to bring their wife pleasure. But she just is like, no, it's not gonna work. It's okay. Just I just want you to be happy. And I just want to say to those guys, don't let her say that, like, okay, every now and then, sure, for sure. You know, every now and then she might want to give you a gift. Make sure it's the exception, not the rule. Because if it is the rule, that is gonna have long-term negative consequences for your relationship.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, yes. Let's just switch gears a little bit because this really caught my attention in your book about X leading to Y. So this is another of this gift and obligation messaging that people absorb about if I do this, then I expect we will have sex. Or if I do this, this will boost her libido or you know, cause her to have more desire, right? This idea of a transaction, right? Let's talk a little bit about that and put that into this conversation.
SPEAKER_00Yes, and that transaction work, there's two different ways we often see this. One is like, well, she's so tired and she just wants some help around the house. So if I do the dishes and put the kids in bed, then I should get sex. So it's this transactional way of seeing sex. And then the other, the other problem that we also see is like the non-sexual touch issue, where if I start to kiss her, then it's automatically going somewhere. So let's deal with the housework stuff first. You know, I've asked women in large numbers, like, what is one thing your husband could really do to turn you on? Often one of the biggest things that I get is just help me, just help me, because women are so exhausted and so they want some help. However, and this is a big however, I think we misunderstand what women mean. Because it's not that she wants you to do the dishes tonight and then she will reward you. It's that what she wants is an engaged partner. She wants to not have to worry about whether the dishes are going to get done tonight, not be grateful that you did them. She wants to not have to carry the fact that your mother needs a birthday gift bought next week and that Johnny has the karate and that Melissa has the piano. She doesn't want to have to carry that all by herself all the time. Because the reason she is exhausted is because she is carrying more in her head than you are. And multiple studies have shown that. Now, there are some exceptions, obviously. When we look at the idea of mental load, like who is it that is the default caregiver that is the default figuring out what we're having for dinner tonight? I've heard men say, Oh, I really want to give my wife a break, and so I'm gonna pick up pizza tonight. Well, that's wonderful. That's lovely to do. But remember that every night or most nights, she's actually making a meal. And so while it's super nice that you might pick up dinner one night, that's not really doing what she is doing. And what really turns women on is not when guys do one little thing, but it's when guys start to own specific things. So say, you know what, babe, don't even worry about karate. I'm gonna figure out karate. Like from now on, karate is my thing. I've got karate under control. You don't have to worry about it. I will figure it out. I will figure out the carpooling, I will figure out all of that. It is on me. And that is what she's looking for, and that is what often boosts desire because you can't have desire when her brain is too full of all these other things.
SPEAKER_01Right. And we know that desire comes from the same energy tank as everything else. So once you're exhausted and your energy is low, thus your desire can be low. It all goes together.
SPEAKER_00But I'll tell you, the most unsexy thing is doing the dishes and then acting like you deserve sex because you know what? You dirty the dishes too. So if you live by yourself, you would have to do the dishes. Doing the dishes is not does not get you sex. Doing the dishes is just part of what you do because you're an adult.
SPEAKER_01There we go. It's a real issue. I hear that so often. You know, if this then that, you know, if this then that. And if you want to hear more about this mental load and how to offload, like Sheila's talking about, how to make the invisible visible, I hope you'll go back and listen to the episode with Morgan Cutlip because it's completely on the mental load. And you can find out a link in the show notes. Just an important, portant, new way to do things rather than keeping it all in our heads, which is makes for a busy, busy mind. Yep. Yeah. Another thing I'd love to remind people about is male responses. Because I just died laughing over this piece in the book. I was just delighted over this because you said, what else could men do? You're we're talking about helping out or taking on more of the mental load or being just a bigger part of all the stuff, not just a chore here, a chore there. But the other piece you talked about was specific reactions of men that are unhelpful in bed. How they act during sex. You know the part I'm talking about? Sad puppies are not sexy. Oh, yes. Impersonal scientists are not sexy. Looking at your watch to see how long she's taking is not sexy. These reactions take her out of the moment and make her worry about what you're feeling. You want her to think about her own body and what it is saying to her so that you can help her work through the arousal steps at her own pace.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, exactly. I mean, can everyone relate to the sad puppy? Like, I totally sad puppy, I think, is so common when you know, guys, they're trying, and you know, maybe they're trying with oral sex with manual stimulation, and they're doing something, and then they're looking in her face to see, like, is this having an effect? And you got the puppy dog eyes, and you're sad. Like, and then if it's not having an effect, she's feeling nervous, she's feeling extremely awkward, extremely on display. You know, the scientist or the obi-guine, I think a lot of men do more of the obi-guine and the gynecologist, like, okay, let's pretend she's in stirrups and let's just be around the seat. Yeah. And like, no, doesn't do it. Does not do it.
SPEAKER_01Yes. And that idea of saying, you know, looking at your watch and the timing that we've talked about earlier. This is so important. So many women say, if he asked me one more time, did you come yet? Are you close yet? Did you like that just is a turnoff for a lot of women. Maybe some love it, right? But for many, that's not helpful.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, and honestly, you should know. She should show you. Like, if you have to ask, the answer is no, the vast majority of the time. But I I think what often happens is couples start intercourse, and the sort of assumption is, well, hopefully she will come before he's done. But if she doesn't, then he can finish her afterwards. And that's sort of the unspoken thought. So we're not talking about this, Sheila. Go ahead. Yeah, so we're not gonna work too much at you know, making her orgasm first, because like we'll just do what it takes, and then hey, if not, he can just be nice to her afterwards. Okay, the problem is at orgasm, you get this whole nice huge hormonal cocktail released into your body, and that hormonal cocktail is saying one thing very, very loudly. It is saying, you want to go to sleep now. You want to go to sleep, and he's feeling super relaxed and he's feeling super sleepy. And if he's now gonna try to give her oral stimulation, manual stimulation, whatever it might be, for 15, 20 minutes, it's just she is gonna sense that this is not what he wants to be doing. She's gonna feel way more self-conscious, which is gonna make it take longer, even if she if she can get there at all, and she's far more likely to just say, No, it's okay, let's just forget about it tonight.
SPEAKER_01Yes, this is a very, very common scenario, which is why I threw out earlier that she comes first. It works so beautifully because number one, her pleasure is prioritized. The pressure is then off her to really enjoy the experience. She has the potential to experience multiple orgasms. Yep. It's just a win-win all the way around.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, like that's how her body was designed. Like, we got no refractory period, we can just keep going. And so it works so much better that way.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, let's get practical then. Let's let's share a couple things that would help men last longer. You did this in the book, and I've talked about this before, but let's mention a few of those things, Sheila. Why don't you jump in on that?
SPEAKER_00Well, the big thing is just don't jump to intercourse very quickly. Right? Like, do everything but and don't start intercourse until like really learn what she looks like at different stages of arousal. Like, understand, okay, at this point, she's just starting to think about sex. She's just starting to get excited. Here she's getting lubricated. Okay, here she's really lubricated. Um, you know, there's a point, like the clitoris actually gets erect in the same way that the penis does. People don't always know this, but sure, it's erectile tissue. Yes. But when she's really, really aroused, when she's almost an orgasm, the clitoris actually retracts and becomes almost flat against the body. Okay. And at that point, that's she's she's often in what people would call plateau. And teasing her is really great, like during excitement and the arousal phases. Like you try, maybe you do one thing for one or two minutes, and then you switch positions and do another thing for one or two minutes, or you vary the tempo or whatever. But once she hits plateau, you just do one thing and you do not change. You do that same thing over and over again. So that's a great time to start intercourse, you know, and then thrusting will often put her over the edge, unless she just has a really hard time reaching orgasm through intercourse and then have her reach it another way and then start intercourse. But understand what all of these different things look like. You know, where is she in the arousal cycle? And then don't start intercourse, assuming she can reach orgasm that way, until she's really close to the end. Because I think what a lot of guys do is they start way too early. You know, a lot of men can have trouble lasting. Sure. But I think the more that you focus on what she is experiencing and how you can help bring her there, the longer you'll also be able to last.
SPEAKER_01That's great advice. Also, there are techniques. There's four specific techniques that women talk about that I have a short, quickie episode on. I think I called it pleasure techniques that you can combine with intercourse, whether with positioning or adding, you know, clitoral stimulation. So check that out if you want to look at that. And also, I think sometimes I want to remind men, just like I remind women, to pay attention to your breathing. Try to try to slow your breathing down, be conscious of your own body and not letting yourself go too far into your sexual, you know, excitement and arousal as you're trying to pay real attention to her. Yep. Yeah. Another thing I think that I love that you brought up in the book for everybody to hear is learning what women like, where they like to be touched. And a good practice is starting with a non-erogenous zones. Mm-hmm. I really appreciated this part in your book for men because it's allowing their female partner to practice, you know, giving and receiving and giving and being received of the instructions about how they like to be touched. Mm-hmm. Even outside of sex is a good actually, outside of sex is a good place to start, right? When she says words like harder to the left, to the right, faster, what does that mean? What is she saying? And do you really understand one another? Because we can't read each other's minds, right, Sheila? I wish we could.
SPEAKER_00And some women feel really awkward saying any of those things anyway. And yet one of the biggest predictors of women's orgasm is the ability to speak up in the middle of what you're doing and say what you need. And so if she can say, yeah, to the left, to the right, faster, slower, deeper, not that deep, whatever. Um, but we can feel really awkward about that. So, you know what? If you feel awkward saying it about clitoral stimulation or about intercourse or whatever, you know, pick a place on your shoulder blade. Okay, just pick a place on your shoulder blade and try to get him to touch it in a very specific way. What instructions would you use? You know, it sounds like, okay, this is not sexual. We're just gonna practice giving him instructions. Once you've got the nerve up for that, you know, let's do some instructions on how you want to be kissed. Show him different ways that you might want to be kissed. Because sometimes you just want to tease, you don't want anything really deep, and then sometimes you want much deeper kissing. But how do you like it? You know, do you want it with more tongue? Do you want less tongue? Do you want like everybody wants different? And how will he know unless you tell him? And so spend a minute, and your only job is to tell him what you want in very explicit terms. And I think if we practice on things that aren't necessarily sex that don't have to do with the vagina, we might then sometimes it's easier to do because it is awkward. A lot of women feel very awkward asking for what they want because it's first of all, it's vulnerable, and then it feels selfish, but it isn't, it's not selfish.
SPEAKER_01No, no, and I think this is a great practice and one that surprisingly we may do it in our everyday life with our work or our children or our friends, but somehow we get in the bedroom, you know, and so many women are quiet, they don't speak up, they don't say what they like, they don't say what they don't like. And you're very clear about this always on your platform. And I love that that you have permission to say that doesn't feel good. I want to stop, that's painful. We need to stop here, that's uncomfortable. All of this language is so important for women if they want to experience pleasure. It's the ability to say what does and what doesn't feel good.
SPEAKER_00And I think the doesn't part is a big factor because we do live in a very pornified society right now, and we're seeing the effects of that. When you look at uh more recent surveys on pain during partnered sex, for instance, and we talk a lot about sexual pain disorders, like vaginismus and how to handle those in our books. But I'm not talking about that necessarily as much as I am like actually causing pain during sex as a part of sex, and there's so much of that happening, you know, the choking, the slapping, the very violent or rough, and this has become normalized. And so it's assumed that this is hot and that people like it. But most women do not like it.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, the study showed that.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, they do not like it. And so if we're going to have good sex, we need to be able to say, no, I don't need to have sex that I don't like or that makes me feel unsafe. And if you're with someone who does not respect that, that is a huge red flag. And that means that the relationship's not safe.
SPEAKER_01Yes. This is such an important piece, too, for any parents listening, as this um, you know, pain during sex is has risen so much in the younger teens and college age, young adults. And if your child doesn't have any framework for a conversation around this or how to advocate for themselves, this is an important conversation to have. I know it's hard. I know these conversations can be uncomfortable, but where else is your child going to have the conversation? So start with yourself and then also reach out to have the conversation in a different format, you know, with your children too. I keep seeing more and more studies about this coming out. So yeah, it's scary. Yeah, I appreciate that you brought it up. Wow. Well, if there was one thing, Sheila, in this good guy's guide that we haven't talked about that you really want to share, what would it be?
SPEAKER_00I think I would just want to give people hope. You know, there are so many people. I I told you that 48% of women almost always or always reach orgasm during a sexual encounter with their spouse. But those 48% didn't necessarily start out that way. In fact, most of them didn't. And a lot of them may have been in the 12% who never have reached orgasm at one point. So just remember that if things are not working well the way you want them to work, that doesn't mean that things will always be like this. And for most people, things grow and change. And often it's not that difficult to make that change. It just takes this mindset shift where we stop seeing sex as something which women give to men and we start seeing it instead as the culmination of the relationship that we have together and the way that we express our intimacy and our affection and our love for each other. And then it often starts to work a lot better. And so, no matter where you are today, just remember that it doesn't need to stay there. A simple mindset shift and some fun experimenting can get you on the right road.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, that's beautiful. And also, I would add to that communication. And if you need help with the language of that or some scripts to use or conversation openers, you know, check out what Sheila has on her platform, check out what I have on my platform. There are resources that help you jumpstart these kinds of conversations that can really make a shift and a change in a safe, loving relationship. Yep, absolutely. Love that. Well, Sheila, I'm so glad you could be with us again. Tell people how they can find you in your work.
SPEAKER_00Sure. So the book we've been talking about is The Good Guys Guide to Great Sex. Um, we also have a book for women that goes along with it, The Good Girls' Guide to Great Sex. And you can find me at bearmarriage.com. That's my website. I have a podcast, Bear Marriage Podcast, every week, and all my social media is there too. I have a really fun Instagram account. So you can find that through BearMarriage.com.
SPEAKER_01Beautiful. And what's something that's delighting you these days, Sheila?
SPEAKER_00Oh, last night was, I don't know when this is airing, but we're recording it the day after Halloween. And my grandkids had their first trick-or-treating after COVID. So my little one-year-old granddaughter and my three-year-old grandson, that was just so much fun. But funniest thing, my my granddaughter was a yucky strawberry. And by that I mean they bought her a pink strawberry costume. But we spent a lot of the summer strawberry picking with my grandson, and we had to explain to him that the pink ones are yucky. You can only pick the red ones. And so he took one look at Vivian's costume and he said, Oh, she's a yucky strawberry.
SPEAKER_01You guys will be using that for months to come, I'm sure.
SPEAKER_00Exactly. So great. I just love kids, they just have such a great way of looking at the world.
SPEAKER_01That is funny. Wow. Well, community, before we wrap up, I want to thank our episode sponsor, Manscaped. Check out the link in the show notes for your discount code on that. And from Sheila and I, cheers to giving yourself more permission for pleasure.
