Permission for Pleasure
A podcast to educate and equip women with the information and confidence they need to express, experience and enjoy their sexuality. Cindy Scharkey RN, BSN, brings her 35+ years of experience as a healthcare professional to open the doors to healthy conversations about sex. This is a community where you can listen and learn to give yourself permission for pleasure. Visit www.cindyscharkey.com for educational blogs and newsletter.
Permission for Pleasure
Let’s Talk Orgasms
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Dr. Erica Marchand joins me for a conversation about female orgasms and pleasure. Are orgasms a learnable skill? What are the components necessary for orgasm? Do orgasms really look like we see in the media? Dr. Erica and I answer these questions as well as why women fake them, do we need to rank them, and more about the Big O.
Erica Marchand, Ph.D. is a licensed psychologist in Los Angeles and the creator of the Big O Masterclass, an online course that uses sex therapy principles to help women learn to have orgasms, by themselves or with a partner, from the privacy of home.
Learn more about Dr. Erica
Learn more about these topics
Answering your questions about orgasm
Faking orgasm
The clitoris - it's a network
Stimulation of the clitoral hood
Pleasure techniques with penetration
Level up your pleasure with 20 different orgasms
Education and Tips for Multiple Orgasms
Orgasm is a Big Brain Event
ORDER my Book: Permission for Pleasure: Tending Your Sexual Garden
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This is Permission for Pleasure. And I'm your host, Cindy Sharkey. As a registered nurse and educator for over 30 years, I've seen the real need to break the silence surrounding sex, especially for women. This podcast is about opening the doors to healthy conversations about sex. What I've found is that when women have comprehensive education about sex, their self-confidence soars. And when that happens, women can truly express experience and enjoy their sexuality. They give themselves permission for pleasure. Welcome to Permission for Pleasure. I'm Cindy Sharkey, your host, and as always, I'm delighted you're here and listening, learning along with me. And today I have a fabulous guest to talk about orgasms. I get so many questions about orgasms, and I think Dr. Erica Mershand is a wonderful person to have this conversation with. She's a licensed psychologist and couples therapist. And we're going to talk all about orgasms for women. So welcome, Dr. Erica.
SPEAKER_00Thank you so much, Cindy. I'm so happy to be here. Thanks for having me.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I'd love for you to share a little bit about your practice. It's in Los Angeles, correct? Yes. Yeah, tell us just a little bit about why you started this focus for women.
SPEAKER_00You know, I got into the field of sex therapy and couples therapy. I think primarily because I didn't have a lot of information about that stuff myself growing up. You know, I grew up in a pretty, I grew up in the South here in the US in a pretty kind of religious household that was very conservative about sex in particular. And so I didn't get much sex education. I didn't get, you know, even the talk about the birds and the bees. Really, it was a an information desert. And I found it really difficult and frustrating. And so, you know, as I grew up over time and like snuck my sister's 17 magazine to look at some things about getting your period and then, you know, like talked to some other friends or read another book about this other thing, you know, I pieced it together. But once I kind of grew up, and especially once I went away to college and just realized how uninformed I had been, I was really kind of pissed. And I thought, you know, I know a lot of people uh experience this and I it could be better. And so that's um that was kind of the first step down this road toward specializing in in sexuality because I think it's so much more helpful and healthier if we just have a place to talk about it openly.
SPEAKER_02Absolutely. I agree a hundred percent. And I would be really curious to hear maybe like your what are the top two or so reasons women come to you for help?
SPEAKER_00One of the number one reasons actually is problems having to do with desire for sex.
SPEAKER_02Yes.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, so whether it's someone coming in as a couple or as an individual, that's a big thing. Um, because over time, I think especially over time in a relationship and over, you know, the lifespan, desire just changes. And um, many, many, many, many, many people and many women run into some issue with that um along the way over time. And so that's uh one of the big ones. And then um obviously I talk a lot about orgasms and consider it somewhat of a specialty of mine, and so that's that orgasm along with the bigger umbrella category of just enjoying sex and feeling like sex is for you know us as well as our partners, um, that's another big thing that women come in for.
SPEAKER_02I just I really feel like I want to just pause and go back to you pointing out that about desire and how it changes because I feel like people have so little education that that desire will change, that there will be shifts, right? That there will be differences and changes throughout your life.
SPEAKER_00Oh, sure. Oh yeah, such a good way to put it. Yeah, like it's not an anomaly, it's something to expect, and it's totally normal and and workable. Workable. Workable.
SPEAKER_02Yes, and I think you and I resonate together. I can agree that we want women to know that sex is for them. Yes, and it the pleasure is available to them.
SPEAKER_00Yes.
SPEAKER_02And I've heard you say um either on your social media or another podcast you were on, that you you believe orgasms are a learnable skill.
SPEAKER_00I do, yeah, yeah. Tell me more, tell me more about that. Sure, yeah. So most often, and I always caveat because nothing's always or never, right? So most often, orgasm is a learnable skill. Um, and so for women who haven't yet had an orgasm, um, sometimes there can be a feeling that, oh, you know, maybe it's just not gonna happen for me, or maybe my body's just not set up that way, you know, or maybe this is something for other people. Um, but most often it's a learnable skill in the sense that it's possible to learn what our particular bodies and you know minds need in order to have an orgasm. And it might be different than what we think, or might be different than things we've tried. Um, so it's, I think, through a process of education and then exploration of our own particular bodies, it's often possible to learn what we need.
SPEAKER_02Dr. Erica, I love that you say our particular body. Right. Yes. Because so often women compare to what they see or their friends experience or perhaps miseducation they had. And and then they they're not they're not comparing with what's normal for them.
SPEAKER_00Exactly. Yes. Oh gosh, and I've been there. I'm sure you've been there, right? Like I think we all experience that in some area to some degree. Yeah, it's so true. And the comparison just doesn't help.
SPEAKER_02No, it doesn't. It doesn't because we are each so unique. Yeah. How we function sexually is unique to us. And how how we interact with a partner, and each partner is unique. So I there is not a, I always, you know, I always say there's not one way, there's not one right way. It's it's there's so much nuance to it for each individual.
SPEAKER_00Yes, yes, 100%.
SPEAKER_02Let's talk about maybe a few of the absolutely necessary things or components that women need to experience orgasm and pleasure.
SPEAKER_00Absolutely. Yeah. I like to break it down into four categories of things that can promote orgasm or get in the way of orgasm. And this just helps me think about it. And I think it helps to kind of break down what can feel like a very complex thing. So the four categories of what should I call these? Well, the four categories that can support or get in the way of orgasms are one, I think, is frame of mind or mindset. Like first, what we've been taught about sex, right? And so, like we were talking about a minute ago, if we've learned negative or shame-based messages about sex, that stuff's in in our head, either either in the front of our mind or the back of our mind. And we have to, you know, work with that, process that, figure out what to do with that. Um, there can be, you know, when I think about mindset, I think there can be self-consciousness sometimes that gets in the way of pleasure. On the flip side, you know, there can be a a seeking out of pleasure or a permission for pleasure, right? Which you were talking about at the beginning. And so our mindset or frame of mind is one of the first things. So the second part of uh what helps orgasms happen or not, I think is arousal. So just the process of getting turned on and being comfortable with getting turned on and being able to get turned on enough and sustain that pleasure long enough into the extent that would lead to orgasm. And so what goes into that are things like, you know, knowing what turns us on and being okay with what turns us on.
SPEAKER_02Oh, because you're speaking my language. I just it's it's it's what I want women to hear is that idea around actually giving themselves permission to feel arousal, recognize what does arouse them, go after what arouses them, ask for what arouses them. And not, I don't want to say like take the bull by the horns, but I want to say, you know, be proactive as well as that idea you're talking about about giving ourselves permission to be sexual.
SPEAKER_00Totally. That's it. And I think that's where the permission is the foundation for all the rest of it. Giving ourselves permission to be sexual, that's such a good way to put it. Yeah, and permission to enjoy sex and permission to want sexual enjoyment.
SPEAKER_01All of it.
SPEAKER_00All of that, I think, is the foundation. Yeah. And so then once that foundation is laid, right, like you're saying, knowing what turns us on, asking for what turns us on, being okay with what turns us on, being okay, enjoying what turns us on, right? Helps to get aroused. The third category of things that I think about with orgasm is stimulation. And I think of that in terms of primarily physical stimulation, but but mental stimulation too, right? Like you need some mental stimulation in order to get turned on.
SPEAKER_02Okay, wait, let's pause there because I have a feeling I have some listeners who may be saying, Well, what do you what do you mean by that exactly?
SPEAKER_00Uh-huh.
SPEAKER_02So could you tell me tell me a little bit more about that? Mental stimulation.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, sure. Mental stimulation. Absolutely. I think of mental stimulation as the stuff, kind of giving ourselves the stuff that does turn us on. So, right, if we're arriving to the bedroom or to a sexual situation, being sure to give ourselves the things that turn us on. Maybe that's like our own fantasies. Maybe it is something that our partner does. Uh, maybe it is the way our partner looks, maybe it is, you know, giving ourselves some kind of other erotic material like books or films or whatever we like as a way to kind of get in the mood. So, yeah, mental stimulation. And there can be, you know, many, many other things, but yeah, mental stimulation, that's what I mean there. Yeah. And then physical stimulation, like you were saying earlier, every body, every physical body is somewhat different. And so we have to know what our body likes and do that in order to experience pleasure and have orgasms. And if we don't do what our particular body likes and needs, then it's much harder to have pleasure and orgasms.
SPEAKER_02And before you get to the fourth one, it I want to just, you know, reiterate that we change and evolve and grow. And what turned us on at one point, or what kind of stimulation we like at one point, whether physical or mental, will will likely change in our lifetime. We go through seasons.
SPEAKER_00Yes, such a good point. You're right. You're so right. Yeah, so what might have done it for us, you know, 10 years ago might be completely different now, or what did it for us with one partner might be very different than what does it for us with a different partner, right?
SPEAKER_02And I think that's so important for people to hear because often I have women reach out to me because they now think something's wrong or not okay because this used to work before and it doesn't work now. Well, that that's normal. That's just normal evolving sexuality through your lifetime.
SPEAKER_00It is. It is, it totally is, and it's okay. Like ideally, we get to have a lot of different like sexual lives, you know. We get to experience a range, hopefully, of what we like.
SPEAKER_01I like that. I I like that. Yeah. And what would be the fourth thing?
SPEAKER_00I think of that as uh things that have to do with our partner. So um things in the relationship, things about like how we feel about the other person, how they feel about us, how we treat each other, um, communicating, how easy or hard it is to communicate about what we want sexually, um, our partner's skill level, I'll call it, for lack of a better word, and doing the things that we like. Um, our partner's, you know, openness to and flexibility to trying new things. Um, so all of those factors that have to do with our partner and our relationship with our partner is the fourth thing that I think can either really support orgasms or really kind of get in the way of pleasure and orgasms.
SPEAKER_02Yes. I love just for people to hear all the different things that go into, you know, this pleasure and orgasm and sexuality for women. And I do think that they don't always have a lot of framework for normal because of what they see represented in the media. And so when you don't have access to education and what's normal, you tend to really view things, you know, uh through a lens that's uh well, it's not healthy.
SPEAKER_00Totally right. It's it's unrealistic, uh, maybe and not healthy. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02And I do think that orgasm is really ever changing. I would love women to hear that it's not always the same every time for the same woman, for the same sexual session, even, for the next month or week or day. It could look and feel so many different ways. Do you agree with that?
SPEAKER_00Totally. I do. I do agree with that. Yeah, because it depends on, I think it depends on each situation. It depends on how much energy we have, how tired we are. Sometimes it depends on just the hormonal environment in our bodies that day, you know, what we're doing, how long it's been, what our partner's doing, how yeah, it's so many different things, you know, whether it's like a quickie by ourselves or whether it's like a really hot session with a partner, completely different experiences. And yeah, it's okay. That's normal.
SPEAKER_02Yes, absolutely. And I I like to say in some ways, we allow orgasm to happen rather than make it happen. Yes. Do you agree or disagree with that?
SPEAKER_00You you are just speaking the truth. Yes. Yes, I could not agree more because we can't make it happen. That's the it's like, gosh, it's like well, it's a reflex. Right. And so we don't have full control over reflexes. It's like we set up the conditions to allow it to happen, figure out what our body needs to allow that to happen. Kind of like I think of it as like going over the top of a roller coaster or go over the top of a hill. We have to kind of allow our bodies to do what they need to do to get us up to the top, and then kind of let ourselves fall down.
SPEAKER_02I like that roller coaster analogy because of the buildup and the climb, right? Yeah, exactly. And you've been we've been talking about arousal and stimulation and mental and physical, and all of that is your climb, so to speak, your buildup to when you, you know, go over the hill.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Yes.
SPEAKER_02Wow. I I would love for us to just talk a little bit about the well, the issue I have with women and society and culture and even the medical community ranking orgasms.
SPEAKER_00Oh, goodness gracious. Let's talk about that, please.
SPEAKER_02Okay, good. People are like, well, what about these different orgasms? Or what I want to have a G-spot orgasm, I want to have an A spot, I want to have a vaginal, I want to, you know what? I just because I know the anatomy of the clitoris, yeah, pretty much all your orgasms that are related to your genitalia are clitoral orgasms to me.
SPEAKER_01They are. Thank you. Oh goodness.
SPEAKER_02Okay, may not be your nipple orgasm or your mental or but but if we're talking about your genitals, right?
SPEAKER_00They are all clitoral. Oh, Cindy, thank you. This is such a such a soapbox of mine because I think that I always want to caveat this and say if a woman wants to identify her own orgasms in ways that help her just understand her body and how she orgasms, by all means do that, right?
SPEAKER_02Yes, wonderful. Yes.
SPEAKER_00However, I think what often happens is that, yeah, this like ranking or hierarchy of orgasms or like naming different kinds of orgasms puts this like performance pressure on orgasms and makes us feel like we need to learn this new thing, like, oh, can my body do this? Can I jump through this hoop? You know, can I do it this way in a way that I think is really unhelpful? And so we do have a long history in the medical and psychological communities of I think creating having created this false hierarchy of orgasms. I know in psychology it dates back to Sigmund Freud, if not earlier than that, but he was the one that popularized this notion that quote unquote vaginal orgasms are better than quote unquote plitoral orgasms. Um, yeah.
SPEAKER_01Boo. We're both doing thumbs down. Boo!
SPEAKER_00Such a lie. Such a lie, such a myth. You know, we didn't have the knowledge of the anatomy of the clitoris back in Freud's time. We didn't even have it until the 1990s, if you guys can believe that. It took a female urologist to discover what the clitoris actually looked like and how big it is and how it orients to the rest of the genital structures. So, I mean, bless her. Thank thank you. But we have this myth that persists that somehow being able to have orgasms in other ways besides with clitoral stimulation, uh and and specifically, even though the clitoris is kind of a big organ, you know, direct clitoral stimulation is still one of the most common ways that women have orgasms. But we've we we adhere sometimes to this myth that somehow being able to do it other ways is somehow better, or like you're more in touch with your body or more in touch with your partner, or some other nonsense like that, that I just don't understand. It doesn't serve us at all, like as women, I don't think it serves us at all. I don't know who it serves to think about it that way. But yeah, I'm so glad you brought that up. I obviously, I mean, you can tell I get really I get there's so much I can say about it. I get really activated about it. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I feel the same way. And um, if you're listening and you didn't hear the first and second episodes about that, your key to pleasure, please go back and listen to the whole description and anatomy of the clitoris. I have that episode early on in the series. So I just want to keep saying the truth about that because I do think there's just a lot of false thinking about orgasm, especially orgasm with intercourse. So many women ask, like, well, how can I orgasm easier with intercourse? And I say, Well, actually, most women don't orgasm with intercourse alone. So you're not abnormal or off or not able to orgasm if you can't orgasm with penetration alone. That that's that's the most women.
SPEAKER_00That's most women. And you know, I I also use this um not analogy but comparison with people to really try to make it more real. So, you know, our genital structures, male and female, are analogous. They come from the same groups of cells when we're developing as as uh fetuses, right? And so the same cells that form the uh clitoris are analogous to the ones that form the head of the penis, which is really the you know, for most men, the most sensitive part of the penis, those those cells are analogous. And then right the the vulvar tissues, the you know, the inner and outer labia are more analogous to the shaft of the penis and then um and the scrotum. And um, yeah, those are the only two groups that really uh I need to talk about for this analogy, right? And so asking women to have an orgasm just with uh intercourse, just with penetrative sex, that that doesn't um that isn't in a position that's gonna be providing a lot of uh direct clitoral stimulation would be kind of like asking a guy to have an orgasm just from like not really touching the head of his penis, which is the most sensitive part, right? And just kind of stroking the scrotum and the shaft, but and maybe occasionally brushing against the head of the penis. It it could happen. But we don't ever ask guys to do that. Like, why are we asking ourselves to do that? Right? Like, intercourse happens to be really good for stimulating male orgasms, but it is not good for stimulating female orgasms. And and that's okay. Like, it doesn't have to be so it doesn't have to be that we need to map on to that.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, it's just so important to encourage women that if you fake orgasm with a partner, I'm gonna switch into this because it's it's so important. Is many women fake orgasm because they expect themselves to orgasm with intercourse or penetrative sex. And when they don't, they fake, which to me is kind of like a huge miscommunication to a partner. Yeah. Right? You're you're you're telling the partner that this works for me, this is pleasurable for me. And it could be pleasurable, but you may not orgasm. So they're downloading this information to their brain that's incorrect.
SPEAKER_00Totally. Yes. And you know what? I have been there. I have certainly faked orgasms in my life, especially when I was younger and I didn't really have the language to or the wherewithal to communicate with my partners about it. And it is exactly that. It's a miscommunication. Like I'm lying to you. Like I am not having an orgasm right now. And I'm just too, you know, self-conscious to tell you that and tell you what I need in order to do it, which that was the case for me. And that might not be the case for everyone.
SPEAKER_02But a very common scenario. Yes.
SPEAKER_00It's so common. And you know, I think part of it is that uh what's depicted in the media about how women have orgasms is changing a bit. I've noticed like there's a lot more depictions of women receiving oral sex or or the suggestion of that, you know, even in kind of mainstream media these days than I think there ever used to be. And so that's really helpful. Uh vibrators get some airtime these days, you know, and I don't think that happened so much in the past. But I do still see a lot of depictions of like intercourse and the woman kind of doing the, you know, the woman actor doing the very kind of typical, very beautiful kind of back arch, like just this is just the you know, the height of my enjoyment and having an orgasm with intercourse in a way that most of us just don't, like that is unusual, unlikely. But I think then we think, oh, well, if that's in the movie, that's probably how most other women do it, because we're not in other people's bedrooms usually to see. And so we think, oh, well, I if I'm not doing it that way, I need to either learn how to do it that way or pretend that I can do it that way.
SPEAKER_02And also the fast and furious orgasm from women when we know, let's go back to the beginning that we talked about arousal, and that most most women don't know, and men either, female arousal doesn't happen in five minutes.
SPEAKER_00No, it takes time often. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02It takes time because of the way our anatomy is organized. It takes time for blood flow and for for all the good things to happen. Exactly, for us to feel pleasure.
SPEAKER_00So yeah, yeah, take some time.
SPEAKER_02What do you what do you tell coup what do you tell clients? Let's give them like two tips if they fake instead of honesty. Let's get practical with with two things, maybe.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah, definitely. I think that it is okay to either tell your partner that you've been faking or not. That's one thing. Like, I I I don't insist, like, oh no, we we've got to come clean that we've been faking. But what I do think is really important is that we find a way to ask for what we really need that would bring us to orgasm. So one tip could be, uh, hey, I'd like to try this thing, you know, hey, I'd like to try you, you know, like going down on me for longer, or I'd like to bring this toy into the bedroom, or I'd like to try sex in this position. Um, and then from there, building up to more open communication with our partners about, you know, if we're doing this thing. Um, one thing that I've experienced and that I know a lot of women experience is that sometimes we fake because we think we're taking too long. Um, and we want to kind of reward our partner for their efforts and have an orgasm, right?
SPEAKER_02Totally. This is a common, common scenario.
SPEAKER_00Totally, yeah. And so, yeah, so if one tip is to say, uh, not you don't have to admit that you've been faking, I think, you know, everybody gets to decide that what they want to do there, but right, but but for sure to then ask for something that you think or know will actually allow you to have an orgasm. So that's one tip. And then the second tip is to communicate with your partner and be honest with yourself about time. Like if you know that, you know, if you're doing something that feels good and you know that you are gonna need some more time to get to orgasm, say so. You know, like, hey, this feels really good. Can you keep going? Um, on the contrary, if you're doing something and you realize, oh, I'm not really anywhere close to orgasm, we could stop doing this and do something else and come back to it, it's okay to say that too. Like we don't have to fake to end the thing that we're doing and move on to something else. We can just say, hey, that feels really good. I think I'm still not close yet. Let's, you know, switch it up and then maybe later we can come back back to this thing. It's okay to do that too. But yeah, just be honest with ourselves and our partners about the time that we need, I think is the second tip to get around faking.
SPEAKER_02That's such a good point to bring up. And I love those two options. I'm thinking also of giving yourself permission to not push towards orgasm. If you're enjoying the experience and having pleasure, orgasm is not always the goal.
SPEAKER_00It's not always the goal, exactly. Right. It's not.
SPEAKER_02I just want to give people the freedom to say, I this is so enjoyable. I'm I'm really enjoying our time together. I'm not gonna orgasm, and it's perfectly fine. And this, I let's let's you know, continue kissing or whatever, and then let that sexual session end with uh, you know, just snuggling and and just enjoying being together and it not be such a negative thing if you don't orgasm.
SPEAKER_00Totally, yes, 100%. We have to take the pressure off of it. It's uh it's a it's a dance. It's a it's a it's a little bit of a dance. It's like, you know, if we want to have an orgasm, then yes, absolutely we should set up the things and ask for the things that will allow us to have it at the same time, uh, without putting pressure behind that stuff, right? And not making orgasm like a right, like the main goal or this sort of even for ourselves a performance goal of like what it means if I have one or if I don't.
SPEAKER_02I agree a hundred percent. I well, I could talk to you about 5,000 more things, but Me too, I know. Our time is up, and I would love to be uh able to give you a moment to just share where where people can find you and your work.
SPEAKER_00Absolutely. Yeah, thank you for that. Um, the best place to find me uh or the best place to start is actually with my orgasm spectrum quiz. I love it. It's a little quiz that I developed that just helps you learn more about your orgasms. It takes literally about a minute, then you get a little video of me giving you your results. And so where to find that is at uh Hertherapy Secrets.com slash quiz. And you'll see the button right there to start the quiz. So I love that. You can find me on Instagram at her therapy secrets and on Facebook at Dr. Erica Marshand.
SPEAKER_02Wonderful.
SPEAKER_00Please come say hello.
SPEAKER_02Yes, I ask um guests to join us in the pleasure practice we're doing as a community of just really pausing and noticing what delights us day to day, what brings us, you know, what brings us pleasure. And I'd love if you might share one thing that day-to-day delights you.
SPEAKER_00Absolutely. You know, interestingly, um, I have these two kittens. They're sort of uh midway between kittens and full-grown cats that I got a few months ago, and they literally delight me. So they're little faces, they're so cute, they're the way that they purr. Like, I just love playing with them and I love them, and I'm a huge cat lady. So I find so much delight in these little cats.
SPEAKER_02I love that. How about you? Uh well, my community already knows, but I'm a big garden lady, so my I am just delighted with new blooms coming right now and new flowers, and my sweet peas are taking over my yard, and I love it. That is so cool! I love that.
SPEAKER_00How beautiful.
SPEAKER_02So that's fun. Well, community, thank you for listening, and Dr. Erica, thank you so much for being with me today.
SPEAKER_00Thank you so much for having me. It was a pleasure.
SPEAKER_02Keep giving yourself permission for pleasure, and we'll see you back next time.
