Permission for Pleasure
A podcast to educate and equip women with the information and confidence they need to express, experience and enjoy their sexuality. Cindy Scharkey RN, BSN, brings her 35+ years of experience as a healthcare professional to open the doors to healthy conversations about sex. This is a community where you can listen and learn to give yourself permission for pleasure. Visit www.cindyscharkey.com for educational blogs and newsletter.
Permission for Pleasure
Everything We Get Wrong About Initiation
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Need better ways to initiate sex in your relationship? Vanessa and Xander Marin join me to discuss everything we are getting wrong about initiation and tips to do it better. She's a sex therapist with 20 years of experience, he's a regular dude and together they wrote Sex Talks: The Five Conversations That Will Transform Your Love Life. Tune in and learn to change the communication of initiation in your relationship.
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And for so many of us, like when our partner says, Do you want to have sex? It feels like this pop quiz kind of feeling. Like, oh my god, wait, I wasn't thinking about that. You feel like you're like already behind.
SPEAKER_01Hello everyone, and welcome to Permission for Pleasure. I'm Cindy Sharkey, your host. Today I'm talking with Vanessa and Xander Marin all about sexual initiation, how we get it wrong and how to do it better. This is such an important topic, and I'm thrilled to have this couple on to talk about it together with me. When I looked at my listenership recently on Spotify specifically, I was struck with how many of the listeners of this show are men. A lot of men around the world are tuning in. It really got me thinking about having more men on the show or couples on the show, as I really do want to offer education conversations for all of you who are listening. Let me know your thoughts about that and your suggestions. You can email me directly through the link in the show notes. I'd love to hear from you. Also in the show notes, you'll find the link to pre-order my book coming out early 2025. Oh, I can't wait for you to see it, to read it, to engage with it. And we touch on a few of the themes I write about in this episode. I can't let an opportunity go by without introducing you to my favorite silicone lube, Uberloop. If I could give every one of you a sample, I would do it. That's why they call me the lube fairy. It is my favorite party favor to give out. It's soaky smooth and stays where you put it. It's an absolute must to have in the bedroom. You can try it at the link in the show notes with my code Cindy. You can't get it any cheaper. I pass along all the savings to you through my code USDONTER website. So check that out in the show notes and try your Uber lube today. Now let's chat about initiation. Vanessa and Xander, welcome to Permission for Pleasure. Thank you so much for having us.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, we're excited to be here.
SPEAKER_01I was telling you right before we pressed the record that you two delight me. I think my community will really enjoy hearing from you. And why don't you just introduce yourself real quickly and your work in the world?
SPEAKER_00So I'm Vanessa. I am a licensed sex therapist. I've been in this field for about 20 years. Which sounds so wild to say. And yeah, I started off doing a kind of traditional one-on-one psychotherapy setting and then very quickly realized that online courses were a more interesting and exciting way for me to share my tools and resources with people. So I started building that out. And then Xander joined me in the business a couple years later.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I did. I joined the business a couple of years after Vanessa started building online courses. But yeah, backing up a little bit, I never had any idea I was going to get into anything like this. Um, when Vanessa and I met, I was in the HR consulting world. And I thought that I was gonna be in the kind of consulting or corporate world for the rest of my life. And, you know, seeing what Vanessa was building is what inspired me to see if you know I might be able to get involved. I never thought that I would be involved, actually being like a face of the business and being on podcasts like this. I just thought, you know, I could help her build out the online portion of the business. But over the years, she kept trying to convince me to get on Instagram, to get on coaching calls, you know, with groups of people and our courses. And I was really hesitant because I was like, I watched Vanessa, you know, we've been together for almost 17 years now. I watched her go through all the work to get license, to build up a practice, to build up a business. And I was like, I haven't done any of that stuff. But she really convinced me that, you know, my role is not about having that experience, it's about having the experience as a regular person, a man, a husband, a partner.
SPEAKER_00So his official title is the regular dude.
SPEAKER_02Yes, I'm the regular dude.
SPEAKER_01It makes you so relatable. You know, I think that's some of your big draw, especially on social, is for people to be able to relate to both of you and you in relationship together. So I'm delighted with what you're doing. And we're gonna talk about initiation in this episode because I think this is such a big topic and area of frustration for couples. You have a whole course, I think, called The Art of Initiation. So this is one of your specialties. And you know, you posted a poll at one point that said only 17% of people say they're happy with the way sex is initiated in the relationship. That is a really low percent.
SPEAKER_00That's wild, isn't it? Even I was surprised that it was that low.
SPEAKER_01I mean, I've been known to leave out my Uber Lube really pretty glass bottle on the bedside table or on the bed as a little note, and it's worked really well, but let's talk about some of the worst techniques because you talk about this in your book, Sex Talks, and you list these out. And even though it might be funny to people, and it is funny, funny also is relatable, and I think people will hear them and go, Oh, I thought it was just my partner, or I thought I was the only one who did that. So let's talk about some of these worst techniques, and then we'll talk about why they don't work.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Okay. So we have a ton of different worst techniques. One of the most popular worst techniques is the boob honk. So, you know, you're washing the dishes, loading the dishwasher, your partner comes up behind you, squeezes your boobs like some old school bicycle horns. Yes. We've actually pulled this one in particular, and it was 99% of women said they do not like the boob honk. There are a few women out there who are. I like it.
SPEAKER_02But it's about one in a hundred.
SPEAKER_00But this is it is the perfect example of, you know, every each couple is so unique, and what works for one couple doesn't necessarily work for another. So that's the whole point of why we need to talk about this stuff openly and why we try to make content that helps couples laugh and realize, like, oh yeah, we're not the only ones who do that. So the boob honk is a classic. Another is one that we call the teenager using really juvenile phrases. We actually just did a reel about this one recently, and I made Xander do all the lines, and I was cringing behind the camera, like, oh, I can't listen to these. I was cringing as I was as I was saying.
SPEAKER_01Give me a couple from I didn't see the real soot.
SPEAKER_02I mean, yeah, this is like, oh yeah, hey, babe, the petting zoo is open. Want to get railed. You know, it's kind of like you know what teenage boys might joke around like with each other. And, you know, so many of these come from us never being comfortable talking about sex, never being comfortable talking openly with the person that we are having sex with about the sex that we might be having. So it's not really a big surprise that we revert back to that humor that we have around sex, because we tend to make jokes about things that we're not comfortable with. So if we're not comfortable with something, then the only way I'm gonna feel somewhat more comfortable is by making jokes about it so that I have some plausible deniability. If she says no, and you know, I have no tools to be able to talk about, hey, what's going on with us, then I can just go, oh, well, nothing's going on. I was joking, obviously.
SPEAKER_00And another one, we had a really interesting debate about this one um last week. So I'm curious to get your take on this one, Cindy. It is what we call the booty scoot. So you guys are lying in bed and your partner starts scooting backwards into you, just kind of, you know, closer. Scooting closer and closer. Closer. So some people said, like, I really dislike it because it's so unclear. I don't know, is my partner coming in to snuggle or are they coming in because they want to have sex?
SPEAKER_02Or are they just like uncomfortable and keep shifting?
SPEAKER_00And a lot of men in particular said, you know, to me, this doesn't feel like an initiation. Like in a male-female relationship, it feels like she's saying, like, hey, I'm open to you initiating, but she's still putting the pressure on me to initiate. And then we heard from people on the other side saying, like, I think it feels really cute, it's subtle, it's like a little bit seductive because I'm not coming out right and saying it. Then some people said, I like it because it could go either way. Maybe we just cuddle, but if my partner's open to more, then we could do more. But it to them, it felt like it's a win-win either way. So what's your take?
SPEAKER_01Interesting. I haven't heard that one, but I I always encourage people that I meet with to sleep naked. So I'm gonna take this to another level, maybe. But you know, I think if people just added a word to that, you know, I mean, for a lot of responsive desire people who respond to touch and affection and, you know, getting their arousal going, that little scoot over, what'd you call it? The butt scoot? The booty scoot. The booty scoot is with another, with even a phrase with it, could be a little more intentional. But you brought up a really important point, which is in male-female relationships, this idea that you know she can't initiate or it's all up to him to initiate. And I am, oh, I have a lot of feelings about that. So yeah, oh yeah. So do we so do we. I appreciate you bringing it up because I think, you know, we don't talk about that very much, and yet it's very present in relationships.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I mean, I can even speak to my own experience here. You know, I started working in the sex therapy field when I was 18. I knew I wanted to do this, even going back to like 13 or 14. And yet, even then, I still really struggled to initiate. I felt like I'm not really supposed to do this. It's not sexy if I do this. You know, it's really supposed to be like the guy's responsibility. I also wanted that feeling of being wanted. I'm like, well, I don't want to put myself out there. What if he says no? You know, so there's so many dynamics that get wrapped up in it. But I just, yeah, I want to share that because I think a lot of women can relate to that. Of like, it just feels really hard. It feels like we're not really allowed to do it.
SPEAKER_01And I do think some of that is, you know, what we kind of ingest growing up and the images and social media and messages we get that we haven't unraveled for ourselves. And when we don't do that, you know, we have a lot of missed messages between couples, right? I always feel for the men because they want to feel desired to desire to they're human and normal, and you know, when all the initiation is up to them, that's really skewed.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, because initiation is vulnerable. And uh obviously we try to talk about ways to make it feel less high stakes, but it's still always vulnerable. You're still always, you know, asking for something, and you don't know if your partner is going to reciprocate. And so, yeah, I think it can it can end up ultimately feeling really lonely as a man if you're like, I keep putting myself out there, I keep being vulnerable. And then, you know, then there's other dynamics added on top of that, of like, you know, stereotypes of like, oh, well, men aren't very vulnerable. But then, you know, men are doing these very vulnerable things and that vulnerability is isn't being seen. You know, I think unfortunately, most men don't have the language to be able to express that, which I think would be so helpful, you know, if a guy who's feeling that way could be like, hey, you know what? It it's really hard for me. I'm doing this all the time. I feel alone. You know, I feel like you're not seeing these vulnerabilities I'm trying to express, and I feel sad in that situation. So I think, yeah, that that would be so helpful for men to be able to try to find the words to express how that makes them feel, and so helpful for women to see and appreciate those things that those vulnerable things that men are taking on.
SPEAKER_01Oh, yeah, yeah. And Xander also, even being able to say in a vulnerable way, I want to feel desired too. Oh, yeah. It really makes me feel desired when you initiate and pursue me. It doesn't have to be all the time if you're not super comfortable, you know, but telling your partner that, even I'm just trying to role-play a little bit here because people, like you said, don't have the language to even say, you know how you love it when I'm coming after you and you know I want you, I want you to want me too.
SPEAKER_02Oh, yeah. I mean, that made me think of when we posted that thing about the booty scoot. We got so many comments from men being like, well, this isn't my preferred way for her to initiate, but at this point, I'll take it. You know, like given the, you know, given how she initiates so little, like, I'll take this. That's like the scratch. Yeah, I'll take this. Like that is better than nothing. And yeah, I mean, think about it. It's like that's not the kind of relationship that you want to be in, right? Where where your partner's like, I'll just take anything you'll give me.
SPEAKER_01Mm-hmm. Yeah. What's another one of these techniques?
SPEAKER_00Another one is when people point out how long it's been since you last had sex. It's like the tracker. The like, well, it's been three weeks, we need to. And like, that's a very obvious one. Like, uh, you know, of course, if it just feels like the sense of pressure and obligation, and if your partner's bringing up like it's been a long time, you feel like you've already lost, you've already been bad. It's not exactly a sexy, like, oh yeah, get over here, let's go.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, there's nothing sexy about I mean, it's almost in in a way, it's almost like a shame-based initiation. Like, like you should feel bad. I mean, even if it's like we should both feel bad, that's not a great way to approach the situation.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, feeling us feeling bad and shameful about how little sex we're having, like that's never gonna motivate anybody to see great. Now we're so excited to have more.
SPEAKER_01Well, and I think a reframe for that could even be around more, I miss us together. Yeah. Or, you know, I miss being, you know, physical with you. I gosh, our life has been just a zoo. I'd love to carve out some time for that. Like, how does that feel as opposed to we haven't had sex in three weeks? What are we gonna do here?
SPEAKER_00Yeah. And I really like in the example that you just gave, too, you're giving a little an excuse too. Like, life has been so crazy. We've had so much on our plate. Because the reality is, you know, with sexual frequency, nobody's sitting around thinking, I'm gonna punish my partner by having sex as little as we can, right? Like we're not having sex for a lot of reasons. And one of them being that our lives are so busy and full and we're exhausted. So giving that reminder, you know, even just a couple words, like we've had so much on our plates lately, it really softens things. It makes it feel like nobody's to blame here, nobody's at fault, and makes you just both kind of relax into each other.
SPEAKER_01Sure. What about the look giver, Xander?
SPEAKER_02The look giver. Yeah, you know, the look giver is, you know, when maybe you're sitting on the couch watching a show, and one person is just kind of giving the other person the eye, maybe the wink over and over. Where it's like, wait, is there something in your eye? Are you trying to be sexy? Are you trying to wink at me? I mean, it's maybe it's a little less clear than the booty scoot, but it's a similar kind of vibe where it's like, wait, I think that you're trying to maybe show me something, but I'm not entirely sure. So yeah, it's another one of those unclear ones where it kind of is inviting the other partner to say or do something, but they're not sure if they actually are supposed to.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I think that communication piece that you keep alluding to here, but is such a theme on this show, you know, that if we could learn to talk about sex and be a little more clear, like you're saying, it's just a game changer for the relationship. It's definitely a game changer for your sex life. And yet, like you said, it takes practice because we're not in the practice of using our voices and saying what we want, you know, speaking desire. People just don't do it.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I mean, we don't have any good examples or role models of it. You know, I mean, think back to every sex scene you see on TV in the movies. Like you never see characters talking to each other about the sex that they're having or not having. And you know, we've seen so many of those scenes over and over again throughout our lives, like thousands of them, that of course we internalize it. Like that's what it's supposed to look like, that's how it's supposed to go. So we really start to believe that we shouldn't have to talk about sex, and actually that if we do have to talk about sex, it's a bad sign. Maybe we're not actually compatible, maybe we're not actually, you know, the right person for each other. You've got that on one hand, and then on the other hand, like most people like we've heard the advice, like you just have to talk about it with your partner. So a lot of people have heard that, but we don't know how to do it. Like, whenever you're reading an article, that's always, you know, the last line. Oh, just talk about it with your partner. But there's never any information about, okay, well, what do I say? How do I say it? When do I say it? What do I do if my partner says this? So that's what our goal was with sex talks is to take this generic advice that's been floated around for a while now and really break it down into practicalities of like, here are five conversations that we want you to have. Here's exactly what to say, exactly how to say it, here's possible responses your partner might have and how to respond to all of these. Like we really guide you through it. Delighted by that.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, that really that role playing and giving options is so helpful for people. And you have coined the phrase bristle reaction. And this is part of this is such a huge topic in the women I work with. So this just just lack of non-sexual physical touch and affection. We frame this out, let's say from your way, because you do a great job of this.
SPEAKER_00So the bristle reaction is when you feel your body tense up when your partner tries to touch you. And it, you know, from very simple touch, they're just trying to give you a hug or just trying to rub your shoulders, and you feel yourself bristling, like recoiling from their touch. And there are a couple of different dynamics that feed into it. And one of the main ones is initiation. You know, a lot of us, like we've been talking about, it feels so vulnerable. We don't know how to do it. So we do it in these kind of backhanded, not super clear ways. And what we eventually learn is we are being trained to be hyper-vigilant to our partner. Like, oh, you're trying to initiate, aren't you? You know, we were trying to cut it off at the pass as quickly as possible. So we've got the initiation piece, and then the other piece is a lack of non-sexual touch. So most couples in long-term relationships really stop touching each other. I mean, I I would invite anybody who's listening right now, like, really think about when was the last time my partner and I had some meaningful non-sexual physical touch. And so again, we're being trained to become hyper-vigilant to touch.
SPEAKER_02Like, yeah, like anytime he anytime my partner comes in to touch me, they must want sex because we don't have sex very often. And the times that we do, we don't talk about it openly. And so it's, you know, it's a hug that kind of lingers for a while, or or a kiss, or you know, the rubbing the shoulders, and you're like, oh no, like I I'm not I'm not up for this right now, so I better pull away.
SPEAKER_01Yes. I hope you're listening, community, because this is such a big, big issue. I mean, not only that we aren't having enough physical affection in the relationship, which I mean, I I would say a huge percentage of women that I meet with that are in a relationship with men, this is one of their number one issues, is that they don't have enough affection to meet their need and desire outside of the bedroom. And so it's always he only touches me when he wants sex, or he only kisses me when it's gonna lead to something else. Or and that is causing the bristle reaction, right?
SPEAKER_00Yep, absolutely. Yeah, I mean, there's just this real lack of that, you know, physical intimacy in our relationships, and of course, you start to get really hyper-vigilant to it. And it and it feels like, you know, touch should be something that feels really bonding and connecting and relaxing and something special that we get to do with each other. But in so many relationships, it starts to feel transactional. Like he's not touching me for me, he's not touching me for my pleasure, he's touching me because he wants something from me, he wants something from my body, and it yeah, it just it doesn't feel good.
SPEAKER_01That transactional word, that's like ding ding ding.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_01When you feel like it's transactional, that does not feel like something you want.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, and your body's registering that. It's like ick, ick. It's just one big ick, get off me, leave me alone. I don't want you know, I don't want to do something for you.
SPEAKER_01I have a book coming out, and in one of the chapters, I talk about this exact issue and why is it that women feel they cannot ask for more affection in a relationship that doesn't lead to sex and trying to walk through like where did this come from and how can we learn to communicate it? Not bold, but we matter, you know, it matters. And maybe you're a man listening and thinking, well, I'm the one who wants some, I want just want some hugs and kisses. I just want a little more affection. Same, any of us. Can we ask for that in a way that can be received and then hope our partners care enough and hear and listen enough to follow up and follow through with that?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, the sad irony of all of this is that both people in the relationship want the same thing. You know, if we really get down to it, couples will always tell us, like, yeah, we want to be more physically affectionate with each other. We miss those days and it felt like we couldn't keep our hands off of each other. Like, I just want a hug. You know, a nice hug day would be so great. But you get like wrapped up into this really vicious cycle with each other, where then bristle reaction only further reinforces a lack of touch because he's coming in to touch me. I'm recoiling. That's a hard experience for him too. Like he can feel it. He notices, like, ooh, wow, you know, yikes. And so that makes him less incentivized to want to touch me more. So then he really starts thinking, okay, I'll only touch her when I'm really trying to initiate sex, which then just sends a message to me. You're only touching me when you want something. You know, so it just we get wrapped and wrapped and wrapped up in this really bad cycle.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I appreciate us just talking out loud about that. Something people are frequently navigating. And Xander, you all have a what is it? Not a make out for so long every night. So here would be a tool, right? Tell us about this tool that you and Vanessa have.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, so Vanessa and I cuddle and we make out before bed every night with zero expectation that it leads to sex. We've been doing this for a long time now. So sometimes it does lead to sex, sometimes it doesn't lead to sex. Our reality is that we mostly try to prioritize sex earlier in the day anyway. So most of the time, like sex is not something that either of us are thinking about. But that's kind of like the final outcome that we want a lot of people to get to after working through this. But it sounds kind of counterintuitive, like making yourself make out or do something that is almost hardwired in your brain as like this is a thing that leads to sex. But you have to understand, like, we've created the situation where, you know, we're not having very much sex, where we associate touch with initiation, with leading to sex, and you know, one or both of us not actually feeling comfortable with that. And so what we try to challenge couples to do is to just incorporate some non-sexual touch consistently, like daily, into their relationship. And it took both of us a while when we started making out to to cut that connection. I found myself personally, you know, after a couple seconds of kissing, I'm thinking, oh, am I ready to have sex? Do I want to have sex? Does she want to have sex? Like, ooh, that this kiss is kind of starting to last for a while. Like, is she thinking that I'm gonna initially, you know, it's like you're going through all these mental gymnastics, which are exhausting. And slowly but surely, I started realizing, hmm, it feels nice to kiss. It feels, I feel close to her. Can I just enjoy this for what it is?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, and we started doing that years ago because I realized we didn't make out very much. Like we used to make out so much when we first started dating, like most couples. And then, you know, you get years into the relationship, and I was thinking, God, I don't remember the last time we made out just for the sake of making out. And so we set it up very clearly with these rules of like the point of this is not to get turned on, it's not to have sex afterwards. So we're making it a routine that we're gonna do every single night before bed. And yeah, like Xander said, even with those guidelines, there was still some like, ah, what are we doing here? Because it was just so uncommon for us. But I think it can be a great tool for a lot of couples.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, and I we like to try to suggest and set a timeline for some amount of time. There's just a hard and fast rule that this will not lead to sex.
SPEAKER_00Because you need to even if we both get turned on, we are not having sex.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, so give yourself some time to kind of sever that connection. After, you know, how once you guys are feeling good about where things are at, then you can take that rule away. But I think, you know, the important thing is, yeah, is just realizing that oh, okay, yeah, if we're starting to feel in the mood, we can communicate about that and start talk about, hey, like, are you up for this turning into more? Like, am I up for this turning into more? Because I think the reality is that once you actually sever that connection and are able to just enjoy touch or kiss or, you know, whatever, enjoy that for what it is. Very often your body does start to respond, especially if one of you is a responsive sex drive type. It just takes a little while, but we have to give ourselves that space and we have to get rid of that connection that kind of almost like cuts off the responsive sex drive. Like the responsive sex drive person is bristles, so they don't even get a chance to respond to anything. So we got to get rid of all of that before we can kind of bring it back.
SPEAKER_01Right. So you're saying like we have to sever the connection of A has to lead to B and B has to lead to C. So that isn't the way this works. It's A can just be A, A for affection, just affection, right? I actually just thought of that. So and that we have to kind of practice and tell our brains and our bodies, I appreciate this, Sandra, that you're framing it this way. Because just like anything, it if it doesn't come naturally the way we've been doing, or we're in the practice of doing a different way, we have to give ourselves permission to allow time and space for it to change. So the big question, right, isn't now what are these terrible techniques? What are the good techniques? Let's shift and pivot here a little bit. We're talking about talking, but I'd love some practical ideas that you share for a better way to initiate.
SPEAKER_00So, one place that I would start is to look to the past for inspiration and think about what are a couple of ways that my partner initiated in the past that I really enjoyed. I think a lot of us forget that they're, you know, forget about pastimes and we forget to like think about that question. Like, what is it that I'm actually wanting here? And that comes up so much with sex. We have these ideas of like, I don't want that, I don't like that, but we don't take the time to think about what is it that I do want. So in our book, Sex Talks, we have the what came up with the initiation styles model that kind of helps you understand what is your specific style, it gives you some ideas of ways that your style might like being initiated with. But I think even just thinking back to the past, what did I enjoy in the past and sharing those with your partner? We've done this with so many couples where they had just had completely different understandings of what each other wanted. So just being able to start from there is a really great point.
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_01What about you, Xander? What are you, what's your top tip or good initiation tip?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I think that my top tip for good initiation is trying to remember that what I like the way that I would like to be initiated with may not be the way that my partner likes to be initiated with. I think the problem is when we don't ever talk about something, we don't open the possibility for us to understand like what somebody else's preferences are. Is very similar to like the love languages model with like affection, where when we don't, you know, before I knew what that was, I just assumed that, you know, I'm a physical touch person. I just assume that, oh, well, I love it when I get a hug or a cuddle. And Vanessa must love that too, but she's not really a physical touch person, you know, not nearly as much as I am. And so it took me a long time to understand, like, oh, why does it sometimes feel stifling to her, you know, if I'm like so touchy, feely. And the same thing is true with initiation, you know, especially when, you know, in so many couples, you have one spontaneous sex drive type and one responsive sex drive type. You know, someone who's a spontaneous sex drive type just thinks, like, you know, oh, you if I just like reach over and grab them, or if I just say, hey, want to do it, like that's gonna be enough. Because to me, that would feel so good if she did that, if she were to do that to me. And, you know, having to understand, oh, okay, what I want for me is different than what she would want. So it's not, it's not about initiating for me, like I'm initiating for her. And so, yeah, just trying to understand what those different energies are that your partner might like and having to train yourself that you have to do it that way. And like for me, I actually had to start setting reminders for myself because you're building a habit. Like, you know, I've lived my whole life like seeing through my eyes, and it takes a while to learn how to do something differently. And so, yeah, I mean, just literally setting reminders, like, hey, remember, like, remember to give Vanessa a compliment. Or, you know, if it's about sex, like, hey, remember, initiate like this. So I would really encourage people to utilize those ongoing reminders on your phone. It can be so powerful when you're trying to build a new habit of, okay, I am gonna try to do this in a different way that I'm not used to.
SPEAKER_01Sure. And you're talking about intention here. You're talking about being intentional, Xander. So I'm all about that. I mean, and that is how people's relationships will pivot if we are intentional.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I think with so much of sex, we expect it to just happen. You know, it's just like we see it on TV in the movies, like I talked about a little while ago. Like, we don't want there to have to be any sort of efforts involved in it. And of course, it's just that's not how life works. What we see on TV in the movies just isn't how life actually works.
SPEAKER_01Sure, sure. And I know we've kind of skidded around it, but the big piece here is that it's really hard to initiate and be, so to speak, rejected, right? So this sexual rejection piece is I mean, it's heavy for a lot of people and hard to navigate, you know, for others, especially when they have other things that really activate them from past experience or trauma or what have you. And that really activates you when someone says no, right? Especially your partner. So before we try to wrap up, I at least want to address this head on because this is the underlying issue, is it not?
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Well, I have a tip that kind of links the initiation and the potential rejection as well. This is a really practical one. I really recommend that couples stop using the phrase, do you want to have sex, and instead use, are you open to having sex? Because here's the thing that happens when we initiate. If I ask Xander, hey, do you want to have sex? If we really think about it, it would be very weird for him to be totally turned on and excited and ready to go in the exact same moment that I happen to be excited and ready to go. And for so many of us, like when our partner says, Do you want to have sex? It feels like this pop quiz kind of feeling, like, oh, oh my God, wait, we're we're sex? I wasn't, I wasn't thinking about that. You feel like you're like already behind, right? So a lot of us will wind up saying, No, I'm not wildly turned on magically in the exact moment that you happen to initiate. And so we'll turn our partner down. But again, like it's just not realistic that that desire is going to be there. So instead, if we use the phrase, are you open to being intimate? It's a one-word swap, just open, but it's a totally different feel. It really conveys this message to your partner. You don't have to be turned on and really excited right now. You just have to be curious. Am I, yeah, am I open? Am I willing? Do I want to connect with my partner? So I think just that simple swap really lowers the bar. When we use that word, it also opens up different possibilities for how we respond to it. So, one of our tips, if your partner is initiating with you, and let's just say, yeah, I'm really not in the mood of uh to have sex, I'm not open to it, whatever. One thing that you can do is suggest something different that the two of you could do in that moment that's connecting and bonding. Maybe it's not sex, but it's still something. Because too often what happens is, you know, Xander will initiate with me, I'll say no. And then there's this awkwardness of like, well, I'm just gonna go over and watch my TV show. I'm just gonna go look at my phone. Right. And so, of course, that just contributes to like the awkwardness of I've been rejected. Now we're awkward around each other, we're like kind of ignoring each other. So instead, if I were to say something like, you know, I'm really not open to being intimate right now, but I would love to cuddle on the couch, or I would love to just have a little makeout session, or I would love if we could give each other massages, or we can go on a walk around the block. You know, it can be a lot of different things, but that way it feels like you're still having some form of connection with each other.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, because the reality is in a long-term relationship, at least for the vast majority, like 99% of the time, sex is not just about sex. It's not just about the physical. Like the reason we get into relationships and have sex with our partner is to get this combination of the physical and the emotional. So we are looking for connection. Connection. And so yeah, if you're not open to sex, are you open to any other type of physical connection, any other type of emotional connection? Like, Neil, let's try to figure out what is the next best thing that we can do. Because then your partner will also feel seen of like, oh, okay, yeah, I was looking for some type of combination of physical and emotional connection. And maybe my partner isn't able to give me everything that I wanted right now, but they are seeing that that was a desire that I express, and they are willing to meet me part of the way there.
SPEAKER_01Love that. Yep, that's right on. And I wonder too if people could also say, wow, I am completely wiped out. I mean, you have the sleep interrupter on in the worst techniques, right, trying to but so many, especially young parents, uh, people caring for older parents, people who have disabled children in their home. Just all of we all have situations where we're just exhausted, like we talked about at the beginning. And sometimes I think you can give an alternative date or you know, or a follow-up, like schedule people hate when I say scheduled sex, but sexy date in the future, a future sexy date, right? That sometimes helps as well if you really have almost nothing to give in that moment.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, giving a rain check can be really nice, or even just saying, like, I really appreciate that you initiated. I know that took vulnerability to do, so I'm gonna initiate next time.
SPEAKER_02I think another thing that is super helpful to hear, especially if you are in a relationship where you can get kind of critical of yourself and be like, yeah, you know, I think that you know, one of us hasn't been turning the other one down in the best way. It can be so valuable to just say, hey, thank you for initiating sex. I'm not open to that right now for whatever X, Y, and Z reason. But, you know, sex and you know, us being connected like that is really important to me too. And so therefore, let me take responsibility for initiating tomorrow or something like that. Because, you know, not only is it recognizing the vulnerability, but it's recognizing the importance of sex. Because we hear from so many people who, you know, the partner who initiates the majority of the time or all of the time comes away feeling like, huh, is sex even important to my partner? Like, and then by extension, am I even that important to my partner? So, yeah, when the answer is just no, there's no way for your partner to know exactly what you're saying no to. So, yeah, it's so, so important to be able to acknowledge, like, hey, this is really important to me as well. In fact, it's so important that I can take responsibility for next time.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, great, great word. I do think this kind of conversation we're having, as well as you offer so many conversation starters like this on your platform, is such a good way for couples to jumpstart, you know, these kind of discussions, conversations. And so if you're listening and thinking, wow, I I don't know where to start here. I mean, this this sounds great and I get it and I hear you, but we haven't done any of that and things are a mess, right? What where do I begin?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, so I would first come follow us on Instagram. We're at Vanessa and Xander. And we actually have a product that's perfect for people who are wanting a starting point. We call it your best week ever. And every day for a week, you get an email with prompts, a little bit of information, a little exercise that you can do with each other. So it's meant to be super bite-sized, like something that you can do in five minutes, but it's gonna have a big impact. And just it's really great conversation starters between you and your partner to get you going, help you understand like the kind of intimacy that you're both wanting to create.
SPEAKER_01Great. And use the podcast, use this conversation, listen to it if you're partnered, listen to it together, listen to what each of us is saying in a different way, and maybe that will help you. I think those types of listening together or reading together or doing something like what you're offering together, it just kind of, I don't know, it creates a container for you to walk in together with and in. And I think that's super, super helpful. Well, thanks so much for being on. I get a kick out of you two, but I also feel like what you're doing is meaningful. And you know, you bring the humor and the meaning and the education, and it's so needed. So thanks for your work in the world and for joining us today.
SPEAKER_00Thank you so much. Thank you.
SPEAKER_01On this podcast, we like to ask guests something that delights you, something that's bringing you pleasure day-to-day. Xander, you want to offer yours first?
SPEAKER_02You know, the first thing that came to mind is it's funny to say because this always delights me, but in the last week or so, I would just say my dogs have been delighting me extra. They have been delighting me extra. I've been spending a lot of time with them. I just love them.
SPEAKER_01Yep. You are not the first one to mention your pets, that is for sure. How about you, Vanessa?
SPEAKER_00I had a very random one that popped into my mind based on some conversations we were having with our team this morning, but I get delighted by typos. I don't know why, but I find them to be so funny. It could be one letter off. I realize objectively that they're not very funny, but I don't know. There's something about a good typo that can just get me giggling.
SPEAKER_02Especially on a restaurant menu.
SPEAKER_00Oh, yeah, a restaurant menu typo is just excellent.
SPEAKER_01I love that. I think the best typo that comes to mind for me is one time I bought blueberries and it said orgasmic blueberries instead of organic blueberries. Well, you know I got my phone out on that one because I was delighted with that. That's a great one. Thanks again for being with us. And you'll find the links how to find Vanessa and Xander in the show notes. I hope you check them out and look at all the resources they're offering to help you open these kinds of conversations. Community, don't forget to try my favorite silicone lube, Uber Lube. They're such a generous supporter of this podcast. So do try it off their website with my code Cindy so they know that I sent you. Okay, curious about more affection in your relationship, how you can initiate better, how to allow for a no, maybe later, and certainly give yourself permission for pleasure.
