Permission for Pleasure
A podcast to educate and equip women with the information and confidence they need to express, experience and enjoy their sexuality. Cindy Scharkey RN, BSN, brings her 35+ years of experience as a healthcare professional to open the doors to healthy conversations about sex. This is a community where you can listen and learn to give yourself permission for pleasure. Visit www.cindyscharkey.com for educational blogs and newsletter.
Permission for Pleasure
Own Your Pleasure
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Many people don’t take ownership of their own pleasure. Whether you don’t feel deserving, feel like it’s a partner’s responsibility, were taught it’s selfish, or just never thought about it in this way - my guest Brooke Bralove wants you to know you deserve pleasure. Join us as we delve into taking ownership of your own pleasure and the steps to get you there.
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Find Brooke Bralove
Mentioned in this episode:
Mindfulness with Dr. Lori Brotto
What are you saying with your touch with Dr. Sara Nasserzadeh
Embracing your desire and sexual agency
The pleasure crisis and why good sex matters
ORDER my Book: Permission for Pleasure: Tending Your Sexual Garden
JOIN my Newsletter: Good Education for Good Sex
FOLLOW on Instagram @cindyscharkey
VISIT my website and blog
Buy yourself that toy, listen to Eratica, you know, watch sexy movies, whatever it is to find your turn on, so that you access your pleasure, which allows you to feel entitled to it.
SPEAKER_02Hello everyone, welcome to Permission for Pleasure. I'm Cindy Sharkey, your host. I'm delighted you joined me today as we are talking about owning your own pleasure. My guest is Brooke Bray Love, and I hope this conversation is just the kind of encouragement you need to feel entitled to pleasure. To take ownership of your orgasms. You will also hear about a therapy called ART that might help you with past traumas that could be affecting your sex life. It was new to me, and I was curious for Brooke to tell us a bit about it. Also, friends, I have to tell you about your ultimate companion for pleasure. Uber lube, my favorite silicone lube. It is silky smooth, stays where you put it, and comes in a lovely glass bottle with a metered pump. Feeling is everything when it comes to pleasure. So you will want to try Uber lube for yourself. You can find my personal link and your discount code in the show notes. Let's meet Brooke and talk about owning your pleasure. Brooke, welcome to Permission for Pleasure. Thank you so much for having me, Cindy. Delighted to have you on the show. I'd love for you to just introduce yourself and your work in the world.
SPEAKER_00Sure. My name is Brooke Braylove. I'm a licensed clinical social worker and an asex certified sex therapist. I have been a psychotherapist for over 20 years in Bethesda, Maryland, which is just outside our nation's capital. And I specialize in working with women, couples, adults, some groups around issues of sexuality, sexual health, perfectionism, relationship issues, and really trying to help people live a more authentic life that is the basis of which is my belief that we are born with the right to a lot of pleasure. And I don't think women really know that or believe that. And I think that as I'm, you know, in middle age here, I think it's it's really important to remind women of that and and really teach them what that means.
SPEAKER_02Okay. Well, let's start there. If this is your intent, which is you and I are so aligned, it's what would you say are the big reasons people come to you specifically women for therapy?
SPEAKER_00For therapy, again, it depends if it's sex therapy or regular psychotherapy. So another thing that I do is I specialize in a modality called accelerated resolution therapy, and I think we might talk more about that in a bit. Um, but I would say the majority of women come with either uh trauma, and that can mean kind of big T trauma or little T trauma, meaning it doesn't have to be a natural disaster or a school shooting, or you know, you were in uh combat for it to impact the nervous system, just like you know, a trauma. So relational trauma, betrayal trauma, um not getting your needs met as a child, perfectionism, bullying, all these things lead to traumatic responses in the body that it really doesn't make a difference. Again, whether it was something catastrophic like that or something that was sort of what most people would say is not trauma, but it actually is because the nervous system registers it in the same way. So about half my clients come for that reason. And then the other half are really there for usually low desire, boredom in marriages, depression, anxiety. You know, I don't like the term midlife crisis, but I would say certainly a lot of empty nesters who are going, oh my goodness, now what? What do I do? Do I even like, you know, my partner? Do I like myself? You know, what's this next chapter like? And I am literally 16 days away from empty nesting.
unknownOkay.
SPEAKER_00And it's funny, I said to a friend today, I said, I'm not sure I'm counting with dread or excitement. And of course, it's really a combination.
SPEAKER_02Sure is, yes. That's several years back for me, but that is definitely a both and as so many things are, right? That's right. Mm-hmm. Well, you talked about women going after pleasure, and of course, this podcast is permission for pleasure, so that's why our platforms align so well. I have found the same that women really I think they don't embrace that their pleasure matters. A hundred percent. And so I'm curious, you know, your thoughts on how we can well, how you bring to the table, you know, this encouragement and advocacy for our own pleasure, because we truly have to own our pleasure. And I find women in midlife and beyond are the ones who are really learning to do this. Of course, I'm in that, you know, I'm in the post-menopause phase. So we do have more time and can give more attention, of course, and all of these things, but I think we also get to the point in our lives where we say, Ha, wow, I want more. Yeah. So this theme around owning our own pleasure, and even to the point of really owning our or our orgasms, but let's talk about pleasure bigger pleasure, because that's what matters to me. Tell me how you go about helping people advocate and I don't know, learn how to embrace that.
SPEAKER_00It's certainly difficult, right? As you've found. And I will tell you, one of the saddest questions that I ask in my office, well, it's not a sad question, but it's often a sad answer from many, many people, is either the question, what brings you joy or what brings you pleasure? And for a lot of women, the answer is, I have no idea. And so again, I think people want to just make it that pleasure is only around sex. And that's simply not true, right? So the very, you know, in sex therapy, we always want to widen the definition of what is sex. And I think we also need to do that for pleasure. So, pleasure, you know, there's sexual pleasure, and that's pretty fun, but there are all different kinds of pleasure. And so, first, my very first, you know, sort of question is if they don't know, I'll say, well, does it, you know, bring you pleasure to, you know, scratch your dog's ear, or read a good book, or when you know, you listen to the wind chimes at your house, anything. I and I start with sun on your face because I think I do think that's a pretty universal kind of experience. I mean, everybody knows what that feels like, whether you find it pleasurable or not, you know, is obviously up to you, but but I think it's a universal thing. And so when they say I have no idea, I say, well, your homework is to tilt your head up to the sky and just notice. And so one of the main ways I encourage people to think about pleasure is just mindfulness, because we can't feel pleasure unless we are fully present and embodied. And as we know, that is very difficult for most of us. We're rushing all the time, we're scrolling, you know, we're literally looking at our phone as we cross the street. I mean, mindfulness is kind of a joke at this point, just in terms of how we do things, right? I mean, you know, I sat in doctor's offices and just sat there, as I'm sure you did. And now I wouldn't be caught dead sitting there. I'm multitasking and, you know, again, thinking about who I need to call or returning emails. And so I just don't think you can talk about pleasure without talking about mindfulness.
SPEAKER_02Yes, yes. And I will reference in the show notes that are episodes with Dr. Lori Bro, who's just the scientist uh on uh mindfulness, and I have a couple great episodes with her, so I'll reference those for more. But this keeps coming up in conversations, listeners, this this idea of mindfulness and practicing paying attention and practicing mindfulness outside of the bedroom. Right. Before you try to bring it in the bedroom.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, because if you have no idea what mindfulness, you've never sat in silence and looked at your, you know, you know, experienced your own breath or did any sort of counting or body scan, then asking you to do that sexually with a partner is going to be really difficult.
SPEAKER_02Really difficult.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. And so I and and one of the ways, though, if if I am helping someone in in terms of sex therapy is just bringing mindfulness to like non-sexual touch. So, you know, I'll encourage people to, you know, stroke their own hair or, you know, stroke their cheek. And again, these aren't sexual things, but they are sensual things. And how does that feel to them? You know, do they like light caressing or deep hard touch? People can find either one of those incredibly annoying. And you gotta figure that out for yourself so you can say, Oh, don't touch me like that. You know, I need more pressure or I need less pressure or whatever. But you gotta know it for yourself first. So also, you know, pleasure is related to mindfulness, it's also related to just know thyself, right? And, you know, that is what psychotherapy is, that's what a lot of sex therapy is, is first knowing what you like, and then thinking about can I ask for this? Can I put it into words? And one of the tools I really love is when you don't want to put something into words because you're not comfortable yet, text it. You know, my kids and I, if I said, you know, I've tried, I've told you six times you need to unload the dishwasher, it's not gonna go well between us. But when I send them a text, hey, just reminding you to unload the dishwasher, there's no relational problem. And so if you want something and you don't know how to ask for it, text it to your partner.
SPEAKER_01Hmm.
SPEAKER_00It's a lot less threatening.
SPEAKER_02A lot less threatening. My mind went to show and tell. So it's it's can you show your partner with your own body, your own hands, what you like? And make it a show and tell because that's like a non-threatening. Hey, can we play show and tell? Make it playful and and see if if if you can demonstrate to get your point across.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, a hundred percent, right? Because then what of course, what you're really speaking to is that sometimes partners feel, you know, like they're being demanded, like something is being demanded of them in a way that doesn't feel good or it's controlling or that sort of thing. And often, you know, we are very sensitive when it comes to all of this. And so certainly zero criticism, you know, unless something is hurting, you'd have no reason to be, you know, remotely abrupt or mean or anything. And saying what feels good is the best place to start, either for you in your own body or asking. I mean, I I think sometimes just saying to your partner, like, could you show me is a great way to model that, you know, what you're ultimately saying is because there are a few things I'd like to show you too.
SPEAKER_02Ah, so start with that. Can you show me how you really like to be touched? Yeah. I remember talking about this with Dr. Saranasade and about how we touch one another and how we need to come back to this exact question of asking how our partner would like to be touched. And also touching in different ways for not every touch need is the same, right? So when you touch hello and goodbye is not the same as I really enjoy your body and you're beautiful to me and different ways of touching. I think we've gotten so far away from that. Brooke, what do you think about that?
SPEAKER_00Oh my goodness, yes, amen. And that's why one of my very favorite homework assignments is you absolutely may not have intercourse, you absolutely may not touch chests or breasts, and I want you to French kiss like you did when you were 16 and you were a virgin, and that was the most exciting thing in the world. And when you tell a couple to do that, you know, you kind of see them light up as they think about it. Everybody knows what that feels like, right? And so when you make something forbidden, you may not have sex, it's much more likely to actually make you want to do it because you've told them, nope, not happening. And that's kind of what a lot of us did around intercourse when we were younger, right? Not happening, you know, until we were ready, hopefully. And so I really love the sort of artificial no to create the expansive yes.
SPEAKER_02Artificial no to create the expansive yes.
SPEAKER_00I'm writing that down. I kind of like that.
SPEAKER_02I like that too. Write it down, Brooke. I am just thinking more about you know, this idea around owning our own pleasure and what that takes to do that. You know, what that what that requires, so to speak, of us. Entitlement. And you know what? So many women have been conditioned around being entitled. It is something to uh uh unravel and overcome, to own. I mean, Esther Pearl says to own the wanting. Own your wanting.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, again.
SPEAKER_02How do we help women do that? Let's tell them.
SPEAKER_00Well, we really do have to say and really explain, you know, how the patriarchy impacts sexuality and our sexual scripts. The patriarchy, you know, Hollywood, Hollywood has screwed us so badly with, you know, what sex looks like, what it sounds like, you know, nobody's got that arm that goes to sleep because you're in an awkward position in a movie, right? But yet we all know what that's like. No one has, you know, lube dripping all over their hands.
SPEAKER_02I mean, why isn't the Uber lube in the nice bottle on the bedside table? I just don't understand it.
SPEAKER_00You can make that movie.
SPEAKER_02Right?
SPEAKER_00But this is sort of it, right? Is we have been conditioned that sex ends when a man ejaculates inside of uh, you know, a vagina, basically, penis and vagina. We've decided that that's what sex is, and it ends the second a man ejaculates, which, you know, is really arbitrary if you think about it. But we've all bought into that. All of us, men, women, you know, all of us. And so I think that really explaining what I would say is kind of brainwashing and um indoctrination into, you know, it's not ladylike to want sex, you're supposed to, you know, it's the horror, it's the virgin horror piece, right? I think women have really been taught that it's just not okay to like desire sex, to desire an orgasm, to desire that kind of animalistic pleasure and connection, right? I mean, men and women non-binary, whatever doesn't matter. Like some people are motivated by the connection they feel from sex. Some people aren't motivated by that at all and don't find it more connecting. Does that fall often on gender lines? Yeah, you know, stereotypically, yes. But I know a lot of women who don't feel a lot of you know emotional connection through sex, they just really enjoy it. And that's okay. But we shame them, right? We shame them, we call them sluts from a young age. I mean, the slut shaming that goes on in you know, middle school, high school is really atrocious. And so clearly we've got a lot of work to do systematically, and but more importantly, just telling people you've been sold a bill of goods, and let's look at that. Where do those messages come from? What are your early experiences that shape that? You know, religion. Some organized religion has really done a number on everything related to sex, I think.
SPEAKER_02And I think the other piece to this is going back to he ejaculates and sex is over, is this women really not knowing education-wise, that if they aren't experiencing orgasms from fast uh friction penetration, that that something's wrong with them, right? So not knowing to ask for what they need for pleasure, not knowing to ask for uber lube on the bedside table, not knowing to ask for longer arousal, all the pieces you and I know that women need. So it's a it's this two-part, so much education is lacking, and then so much input is wrong, right?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, absolutely. I mean, anatomy is it is very shocking still when I talked in front of a room full of really, really educated, you know, 35-year-old women, all of whom were married, and I brought out my little purple 3D clitoris.
SPEAKER_02Oh, I have one too.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. And I said, anyone know what this is? There were 10 women there, not one knew what it was. And I actually thought we were doing better in the, you know, in the the people in their, you know, 30s, but it was shocking. They had no idea. Absolutely no idea. And so, yes, we have to start with basics. And also, even really, you know, there are, I do work with a lot of anorgasmia as well, right? People who just have never, and often that's trauma related, where they are blocking themselves for some reason unconsciously from that. And there's usually some type of, again, sexual assault or some inappropriate sexual thing that happened at some point in their lives. Not always. Sometimes, as you said, it's do you know where your clitoris is? Do you know how to touch it? Do you know strategies? Do you know, you know, that it extends internally and all this stuff? So it really is a combination of anatomy and uh entitlement and undoing the brainwashing.
SPEAKER_02So let's pivot a little bit here then as we talk about traumas, and I talk so much about this idea that we need to not only traumas, but this is what we're talking about education and untangling the things that I call in our or in our sexual garden. This is how I referenced it in my book, because I feel like we're growing this garden through our lifetimes, and different things are getting planted there, dropped in, coming up underneath. I mean, hidden in the rocks, all the things, right? And you specialize in a different kind of training that maybe people don't know about called ART. So I have done EMDR personally, so I'm I'm very curious what the ART is and how it's different from EMDR and how you see it helping in these situations of meeting people where they are with these traumas to free up space for pleasure, yeah.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, absolutely. So accelerated resolution therapy ART or art is a brief evidence based treatment modality that uses rapid eye movement and voluntary image replacement to basically change the way the brain stores distressing images and then the corresponding negative sensations that show up. In the body when someone is triggered, right? The physical aspects of fight, flight, freeze, or fawn. And we do that without much talking. So there's very little re-traumatization because we don't actually need any details about what happened to you for you to work through it in the session. And that's really one of the things actually that differentiates EMDR from ART. EMDR, there's a lot more talking and kind of what I say is a little bit meandering, right? You kind of go where you go. You follow sensations, you look at what comes up. ART really has a very clear protocol. And what's so wonderful about that is that it means that there truly is a resolution at the end of every session. So 95% of the time you leave an ART session feeling better.
SPEAKER_02Resolution how? Tell me more.
SPEAKER_00It really depends what the person is working on. But because it has a protocol, a beginning, middle, and an end, the end always is going to resolve something. Does it mean that everything gets resolved in one session? Not necessarily. The average is one to five sessions per issue that you're coming in with. So if you're coming in with, you know, the let's say that you're middle-aged and you had a sexual assault in college, and now what's happening is every time your husband touches you in any sexual or romantic way, you flinch and you have a panic attack. In ART, what we do is we have you actually see that original scene like a movie in your mind, pairing it with this rapid eye movement, which is just bilateral stimulation, which is inherently calming to the brain. But initially, when you're seeing, you know, a rape, you know, in college, what's going to happen to your body? You're going to, uh your throat's going to close up, your heart's going to race, you're going to feel a weight on your chest, or you might be shaking. And so what we do is we actually want those negative sensations to come up in the session so that we can get rid of them and process them and make them more neutral to, you know, non-existent. Then what you have the person do is become kind of desensitized to that same scene. You have them kind of see it again, again, always pairing everything with sets of eye movements. And the second time they look at it, it's usually either a little more distant or parts are missing, or they don't feel that same negative charge. If there are negative sensations, again, we process those out with the calming eye movements. And then the last part of the protocol is where the person gets to imagine it the way they wish it had happened. And because each person is different, that'll look different. So one person might say, Well, of course, I want it to have never happened. And they'll create a scene where they didn't go to that party that night and they had a, you know, they went with their girlfriends to the movies and had, you know, an incredibly fun evening. And then you store that in the brain so that the brain will know the facts of what happened, but it has no reaction anymore. So that you can talk about it very neutrally. And then when your husband touches you in the, you know, at night in bed just to cuddle, you don't flinch anymore. You don't have a panic attack anymore. Because the brain now sees that other scene and has neutralized the initial one.
SPEAKER_02Okay, interesting. So I do see how that's different from EMDR.
SPEAKER_00You can share another few ways if you want to, and it might be helpful for folks.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, except that a lot of people probably don't know what EMDR is either. However, I just feel like there are different modalities that work for different people. Brooke. Uh-huh. And I I just like the idea of you bringing this up for the community as another modality that could work beautifully for somebody. Like for someone, EMDR maybe didn't work well. Well, maybe this might work for them. For others, like, you know, they really needed talk therapy. And there's so many modalities that can be helpful. I really I appreciate that just you bringing up what it is and sharing about it for those who've never heard of it. Because maybe there's several that are listening that think, wow, that sounds like something that might work for me.
SPEAKER_00Mm-hmm. And yeah, I I I agree, right? We're all different. And you know, you have to find what works for you. And the creator of ART, Lainey Rosenzweig, her book is called Too Good to Be True, because that's actually what it feels like sometimes. That what happens in a session is so magical that someone can be in complete distress thinking about a trauma. And literally within a few minutes, they're laughing and smiling as they've recre, you know, created this new movie. And they're, you know, they're laughing. And then, you know, it's really amazing how quickly it works. And what I usually say to people is, I love talk therapy. I'm a talk therapist, I've been doing that in a long time. And sometimes understanding something and processing it is not enough to make the nervous system understand that it's safe, you know, your body's safe and you can be calm. And so when you do that with this kind of vagus nerve stimulation, which is what bilateral eye movements really do, you really create a different outcome. And, you know, you don't have to believe it'll work to try it. You just have to be willing to try. So I love having people who are super skeptical. I mean, the the way I came to ART is that I was a patient. I did ART after a very traumatic breakup. And I had two sessions and I felt totally neutral about the breakup after that. And I had cried for 99 straight days before that.
SPEAKER_02Wow. I'm sorry that happened to you. It was a long time ago. But and and I guess what I want people to hear is is just the hopefulness of you know, options out there for you to work with, you know, to access. And I think a lot of a lot of times we can just get stuck in the things that are really tangling us up. Whether it's a you know, big T trauma, like you said, or perhaps it's, you know, just sex was awkward the first time, or say you had your first GYN appointment and were totally unprepared, and that was horrific. And you know, there's a lot of different scenarios of what these things can be. And those things definitely can come in and wreak wreak havoc in your garden, is what I want to say.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, absolutely. I mean, you've named many of the things that we work on. I mean, you know, I'll work with a a man who has ED, um, and you know, we trace it back to, you know, the very first time someone saw his penis, you know, in kindergarten, you know, and embarrass him, right? And he didn't know that that was still there. All he was saying is, you know, help me get it up, help me get it up and keep it up. And of course, we start there. But if you ask the body and the brain to show you when was the time you kind of felt the shame or embarrassment or those sensations in your body, within seconds sometime, it just pops right up. And the person may have no, not necessarily no memory, but they haven't thought about it in 30 years. And they're like, oh my God, I would never have known that that's what my brain has been carrying around. But we resolve that little, it's not a little trauma, but we resolve that trauma and the ED goes away.
SPEAKER_02So ED is erectile dysfunction, for those who don't know. And that's a another example of how that's very interesting, how early experiences kind of get cemented in our brain and nervous system and our body responds. It's all connected, Brooke.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah. And this is a way to just get to it really fast because he could not have said consciously, I think it was when I was five, because he wouldn't have seen that necessarily even in his own mind as a trauma. Like it would just be like, you know, oh, kids say mean things or something. But you can get to it really fast by pairing it with eye movements.
SPEAKER_02Well, you can tell Brooke feels really passionately about I wish you could see her while she's talking, because she definitely believes in this therapy, has seen it work for herself and for others. And so I'm sure you can find out more about it in the link in the show notes. I'll put there where you can find Brooke and her work and more more around ART if you're interested or want to have more information about that. Absolutely. As we wrap up, I'm curious maybe one or two things you want to share that around just owning our pleasure that we haven't talked about. Maybe we've kind of skipped around a little bit here and there, but as you leave us, what do you want to encourage people with around owning their pleasure?
SPEAKER_00Well, you gotta do something different. So I think it's important whether you're partnered or not, if you haven't been able to figure out what's pleasurable, you know, buy a toy, listen to erotica. You know, you have to turn yourself on. You are responsible for your own orgasm at the end of the day, because most people learn how to orgasm alone, you know, and so I really encourage people to masturbate, frankly, and that that's a great way to start owning your pleasure. Because once you feel more pleasure in your body, you might kind of decide, ooh, I kind of like this and I'd like more of it. But if you haven't experienced it yet, you don't know you deserve it. So buy yourself that toy, listen to erotica, you know, watch sexy movies, whatever it is to find your turn on, so that you access your pleasure, which allows you to feel entitled to it.
SPEAKER_02Okay. That's Brooke's word on owning your pleasure, because I say around here, your first sexual relationship is with yourself. And many of us were not brought up to embrace that, believe that that was very much the opposite of what we heard. And I want to tell you that even just saying that out loud to yourself, you know, my first sexual relationship is with myself. And how can I access more pleasure? How can I experience more pleasure? And as Brooke brought in, how can I turn myself on? What is it that sparks those kinds of increased heart rate and sexual excitement for me? And we get to figure that out for ourselves.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, it's our responsibility. Right.
SPEAKER_02Right. So that's your homework, listeners, as we wrap up and say goodbye to Brooke. Thanks so much for being with us. Thank you for having me. Yeah, thanks. How can people find you? And we'll link that in the show notes.
SPEAKER_00You can find me at my website, brookbraylove.com and Facebook and Instagram at Brookbray Love Psychotherapy.
SPEAKER_02There you go, friends. So don't forget your homework and keep giving yourself permission for pleasure.
