Legally Bond
Legally Bond
An Interview with Debra Hamilton, Animal-Related Dispute Resolution
In this episode of Legally Bond, Kim speaks with Debra Hamilton, founder of Hamilton Law and Mediation and a nationally recognized leader in mediating conflicts involving pets and animals. She’s also the host of the “Why Do Pets Matter?” podcast and a frequent speaker and writer on mediation and animal law.
Deb shares her journey from litigator to mediator, explores emerging legal trends like best-interest standards for animals, and introduces the MAAP Blueprint for planning a pet’s future care. She shares practical tools for resolving emotionally charged disputes with compassion and clarity—offering a roadmap for lawyers, veterinarians, and pet owners alike.
Hello and welcome to Legally Bond, a podcast presented by the law firm Bond Seneca King. I'm your host, Kim Wolf Price. For many of us, pets aren't just animals. They're truly beloved members of the family. And just like with any family, sometimes things can get complicated. Whether it's figuring out pet custody during a divorce, working through veterinary care decisions, or sorting out a disagreement with a neighbor, it's important to find peaceful solutions that work for all involved. On today's episode, I'm really thrilled to have my friend Deborah Hamilton, founder of Hamilton Law and Mediation, as our guest. Deb is a nationally recognized attorney, mediator, and author specializing in resolving conflicts that involve animals. She's also the host of Why Do Pets Matter, a podcast you should listen to, and a frequent speaker and writer on mediation and animal law. Hello, Deb. Welcome to the podcast. I'm so excited you're here.
SPEAKER_01:Oh, Kim, thank you so much. And thank you to Bond for having me as guest. This is so exciting for me because Bond is such a wonderful company and I'm so thrilled to be here with you, my friend.
SPEAKER_02:Thank you. Thank you. Okay. So, Deb, I think your work is so unique and impactful, and that really helping people resolve disputes over pets and animals through mediation rather than litigation. And another piece of this is animals are so critical to us, and often we don't think of these things. How we handle it in all these areas. So before we dive into your practice, though, I'd love it if you'd let our listeners know a little bit about you. So I'm lucky enough to work with you on the executive committee of the New York State Bar Association's Women in Law section and to call you a friend. But I think our listeners would really appreciate knowing a bit about who's speaking. So would you mind sharing some of your background, what where you're from, attended school, your career, family, whatever you'd like to share?
SPEAKER_01:Well, I am originally from Flushing, New York. I grew up in one of those 1940s, 50s bungalows that were built after the war. And I went to school in Queens at St. Kevin's and then out on Long Island at St. Mary's. Then I went to the American University, and then I went to Cardoso Law School. I am a former Jones Beach Ocean Lifeguard, which I say that with glee because when I started as a lifeguard at Jones Beach, they only allowed women in the pools, not on the ocean. And so I wrote a letter to the then governor Mario Cuomo and I said, Would you let us take the test? And everyone felt, well, sure, we'll just let them take the test. They'll never pass it. And every single one of the women went, I love this. And so all the women, when I go to Jones Beach, I always look up at the lifeguard stand and there is always a woman on it. And I say to myself, not to them, because I remember when I was up on the stand and somebody came up and say, Do you know I used to be a lifeguard? It's so weird. Um, so I don't do that, but I do say, You're only up there because I fought for you to be there. Yeah. So this started my path toward the law. I always tell people a very funny story. My mother said to my sister and I when we were older, she was hopeful that we would be a paralegal and a dental hygienist. So I became a lawyer and my sister became a maxillofacioprostodonist, which means she replaces people's faces that have lost them for cancer or through an accident. So my mother said, I wasn't shooting this high. But she but she always taught us to shoot as high as you could go because it was really important for us to be the people that we could be. I'm married, I have two wonderful boys. One is an editor on the Netflix show, The Starting Five basketball. Oh, fantastic. If any of you have watched The Defunct now, but Trunk History, who was also the editor on that. Yes, and my other is in aviation down in Florida. So it's been really cool. I started Hamilton Law and Mediation in 2008. My husband's in banking and he kept coming home. The sky is falling, the sky is falling. And uh I said, okay, I will go back because I had taken a few years off to be with the boys, go to school, be a PTA mom, and there's a story behind that. So I was a PTA mom for about 10 years. Um, after working for about 12, I took about 10 years off. And then I said, I'll go back to work. And I was a litigator. I worked at the New York City Police Department, I was an ADA in Westchester County, I worked for the New York State Inspector General for the MTA, and I also worked for the New York State Inspector General. So I had a good governmental career. I I loved being in service. So that was the kind of person I was. Then I took a few years off with my kids and then I went back to work and thought, well, I'll just go back to work and litigate because that's what I did. And it turned out that being a PTA mom made it almost impossible for me not to try to work it out because I couldn't litigate with the mothers who disagreed with me on PTA. I had to figure a way to get them to row the boat in the same direction and everybody get to the same place and be glad they got there. Yes. So in 2010, I shut Deborah A. Hamilton and Associates and started Hamilton Law Mediation. And I haven't looked back and I chose to follow animals because, in this lifetime of mine, I have always had Irish setters. Beautiful. I know. And when I graduated from law school, I bought my first Irish setter. And then from there, I bought another one and I showed them in obedience and in tracking and in confirmation. I've done some really wonderful winning. One of my girls won the breed at Westminster. Oh my gosh. So so we've we've had a really good run with our Irish setters. I still have one here who you might hear, and my apologies to everyone. And so I was always asked to help people who are in conflict because either they didn't have an attorney look at their contract, or they didn't write a contract, or they died without any plans for their pets. So everybody would call me. And I said, you know, there's a lot of work here that courts don't want to see. I think any of the people listening to this podcast who know judges know that the last case they want to see is somebody fighting over a dog in anything, vet malpractice, custody, neighbors with barking dogs because it's driven by emotion. So that's when I decided to open the practice and just do mediation, collaborative law. I sometimes will do collaborative law because I won't litigate anymore. I threw that gauntlet down in 2010 and I said, if I'm really going to be someone who's going to help them find a peaceful way to go forward, I can't have litigation in my back pocket. So I uh in all my engagements letters, I say, and if you'd like to litigate, I'll help you find one, but I don't litigate.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, I think that's so important too, right? Like you really are able to focus then, because as someone who was a litigator for a long time, it's a it's a little bit, it's a different mindset. So I think this is a good point to maybe ask the question then, how does mediation differ from traditional litigation? And maybe especially in these um animal-related disputes.
SPEAKER_01:Well, I have to tell you that when I decided to mediate, I thought it would be a really easy transition because I mean, mediation, you just sit down, you talk to the people, you tell them what they're going to do, and you move forward. That's not really what mediation should be. That's mediation is a voluntary process that the people who are involved in the disagreement agree to participate in. The mediator has to stay completely neutral. Attorneys can come, and we really appreciate attorneys who come to help facilitate the conversation and not be strong advocates for their clients, because then you're just setting them up for this adversarial discussion. And that's not what mediation is. And we focus on what's the most important thing to both parties, which they seem to forget. I always say uh they want to be right over getting it right for the pet. Yeah. So mediation enables you to get it right for the pet because everyone recognizes that the emotions you have for these animals sometimes cloud your judgment on what's the best next step. Uh, I I often say to people, Did you ever travel and leave the dog home with the ex? And they go, Yeah. I said, Did you worry about the dog then? And they go, Well, no. I said, So let's remember that when we're having this conversation. Oh my gosh, such an important point, right? Yeah. Unfortunately, your pet doesn't hate your ex. You wish they would. It'd be really great, but they don't. And if I once did a presentation with the wonderful judge Matt Cooper, who did the big case Travis v. Murray, which was a relationship breakup, and I said to him, So, Judge Cooper, tell me what happens to, I think the dog's name was Freddie, if the possessory person that you awarded the dog to gets hit by a bus when they walk out of court. What happens to Freddie? Yes. And he goes, Well, I would hope that they would, you know, give it to the other party. I said, but but that's not in there.
SPEAKER_02:That's not in there.
SPEAKER_01:$10,000 to win this dog, and this is the only animal that is left of their, you know, daughter, their son, whatever. So they're going to keep the dog. And if the dog was put in a room with the ex, they'd run to the ex. So you really need to be a little more aware of and be the person your dog or cat thinks you are.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, that's, I mean, that's honestly, that's a great way to live, generally speaking, right? Be that, be that person. But such an important point in these really emotional, elevated disputes that aren't actually about the pet, but about your feelings about this other person in many instances.
SPEAKER_01:You forget why you're there. And mediation, see, and in litigation, pets are property. So they're chairs. I mean, they might be getting to be a little bit more because nine states have now put together the best interest or well-being of the pet, which is great. But I think everyone on this call would agree that it depends on how the judge feels about pets, whose well-being it is. And it's about what's presented to them. They're they're learning information in a vacuum, and they have to make a decision for the best interest. And that's why I always hope that judges punt and say, you know, I'd really like you to go to mediation and find a mediator who is pet friendly, who does this for you know a living, not that it's adversarial. I hate when people come in and say, you know, I'm just better for the dog and and let's get this over with, because there is so much you have to cover.
SPEAKER_02:Absolutely. And the simplest thing that you mentioned in that matter is okay, you you awarded custody to this one person, but what happens if something happens to that person, right? There's that's a very that could be a short-term plan, right? And so it doesn't work. So I guess maybe this is a good point then to ask, you know, how do you see this field, animal law and mediation, evolving?
SPEAKER_01:Well, I can tell you the first, oh, I've been in it now, what, 15 years? The first 10 years are really tough. Um, we've only really had some movement with these new laws on best interests and things to elevate the animal. I've been a member of the American Bar Association Animal Law Committee, which is part of TIPS. I've been a member of the New York State Bar Association Animal Law Committee. I was a member of New York City. I termed off. I often think that if mediation was more a part of that practice, and I remember when I started this, one of the really important people in the animal law committee on the American Bar Association said, Deborah, we love what you do, but you don't set precedent. And I said, I know. I said I incrementally move people toward what's best for the pet so that they can get there in relationship, not that I burn every bridge known to man in litigation. And then once I get the decision I want, I have to rebuild relationship.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah. And the thing is though, precedent would be so tough, right? Because it is so based on the circumstances, the relationship, and all of that. And when we're talking about precedent for listeners who may not be lawyers, it's a legal decision that then other judges would follow going forward. And it's just this is so personal.
SPEAKER_01:Oh, it is, it is. And there was a decision recently in New York City where it's called the De Blasi decision, where the mother of the owner of a dog was uh the dog was hit by a car on a six-foot leash in a crosswalk and was killed. And the mother was six feet away because she was on the leash and she it was a member of their family. And judge that way. And everyone is up in arms because this was way over the top of finding that the the dog was a member of the family. And I mean, it really created a big leap from say Travis Murray to de Blasi. And the people who are, say, in veterinary medicine or in insurance said, well, this is never going to stand on appeal. And of course, the people in Animal Law go, yes, and it's gonna stand on appeal. So we'll see. Yeah, mediation, we would have been able to figure out how to compensate people. I don't set precedent, which means that the next case that comes up on the same facts will have to be decided in mediation according to how the people decide. Right. What work best for them. And usually if you have a mediator who I feel is not directive or evaluative, but rather who is I studied with Gary Friedman for the Center for Understanding. And I believe understanding-based or community-based mediation training is the best in these kinds of emotional issues.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, that makes perfect sense. I mean, I think that's why you're known for you know teaching people how to communicate and resolve conflicts peacefully. I mean, look, that's, you know, I won't lie on the women in law section. There have been issues over the past few years that have got us all heated. But you help us, that skill set helps in everything you do, sort of bring everyone back to what's the important thing. What are we focused on? So you've talked about it a little bit, but would you mind sharing some of your favorite techniques or approaches to helping people find that common ground?
SPEAKER_01:Well, you know, I've had several cases, say with veterinary malpractice, and they come in loaded for bear. They're going to shut the veterinarian down, they're going to take his license. And, you know, we're licensed as well. When anybody has their license reviewed, you don't sleep, you don't eat. Veterinarians have some of the highest suicide rates of any licensed professional. So they come in loaded for bear and I never tell them, well, you're not going to win. You know, it's very unlikely that the vet board is going to find for you. I always go, I know these are such frustrating times, and you feel so helpless and you love Fluffy so much. And I decompress their anger. And I enable them to say, okay, what can we do next? And I said, Well, let's write a letter to have a conversation because I tell you, Kim, every single case that comes in my office that has to do with, say, veterinary malpractice or abuse or anything with respect to an animal, the people always come in and say to me, I just don't want this to happen to anybody else again. And that's where I start. I remind them, that's what they said to me. And I know they want to have their pound of flesh. However, if they truly want to speak to the veterinarian or the kennel person or the groomer who hurt your dog, whatever it is, if you want to speak to them, you're going to have to speak to them in a way and in a place that's safe, where everyone feels heard, respected, and understood. And that means that for both sides, I help them. I always say, one, two, three, four in, hold one, two, three, four, one, two, three, four out. Yeah, a little box breathing. And no, every you know, I would tell Kim that if she was in my office and was fighting over a dog. Every time you're in your amygdala, which means the hair on the back of your neck is standing up, how could you say that about me and the dog? I go, just breathe in, nobody will notice. Hold, breathe out, and it'll help you get back into your prefrontal cortex so that you're not defensive and reactive, but you're curious. Ask a curious question.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, such a good point. I mean, I think any of us who've, you know, lost a beloved pet, I always say it's sort of this really pure form of grief because you don't have to be strong for anyone else. You don't have to plan the services and have the calling hours and write the obituary. It's just you missing this constant love. And so I think then people need that moment to refocus themselves and understand like you said, be the person your pet saw you as. So there must be a lot of particular challenges and misconceptions, maybe that you encounter while mediating on pet-related disputes. Are there any you can talk about?
SPEAKER_01:The biggest one is that, well, they'll think I don't have a case if I mediate. Oh, interesting. They'll think I, you know, I already know I'm gonna lose if I mediate. And I think anyone who's listening to this podcast who's been in a mediation, often that's the way your client feels. Your client feels if you say, let's go to mediation first. Why? Don't we have a good case? And and it's like, no, I want to enable you, because this is your who you love, I want to enable you to make the decision that's best for your pet. Doug Minx, who's a judge in Connecticut, was on my podcast and he said something that I repeat all the time. He said, you know, I should get a quarter for every time you say that. And I go, I'm happy to say, said, I never can understand why someone thinks because I wear a black robe, I know what's better for their pet.
SPEAKER_02:That's really interesting. Right. Yeah, and also judges like when people try to solve things in mediation first. That's not true.
SPEAKER_01:Because they found, I mean, the only good thing for me that came out of COVID is that mediation was the go-to, because otherwise you were waiting two or three years to get to court, right? Because everything was put on hold. So people hunted and went to mediation. And a lot of them said, Wow, I didn't know it could work like this. And it's been wonderful. In any area of law, mediation can at least enable people to feel heard, respected, and understood. And then you can go to the judge for the finer points of the money or the this or the that. But at least the parties feel as if Deborah understands Kim and Kim understands Deborah. They know where they're from, and they do it in a way that is kept civil. So if you have a mediator, if you have and and I'm a I'm not a proponent, and I'll say this loud and proud. I'm not a proponent of shuttle diplomacy and mediation, where one party sits in one room and the other party sits in the other room. There is a time for that. And on Zoom, you can put people in rooms. I actually had to study to be certified because I moved to North Carolina uh in mediation, and when I it was my turn to be the mediator, I mediated, and everybody was always in the room. At the end, everybody was commenting, well, we didn't understand why you didn't separate us. And I said, Well, why did you feel you needed to be separated? And they go, No. And I said, So then why would I separate you? I said, because you're seeing Kim's face when she's talking to you. Yes. And and I, you know, she's seeing your face and she's knowing that you are sincere in what you're saying, and that's lost. If the I always say if the mediator is the person in the room with the most information, you are not having a really good mediation. That's a really excellent point, right? Especially on these sort of matters of the heart and emotion. Absolutely. I mean, commercial, it is, you know, mostly about the money. But even then, I would argue that if you've had a commercial relationship with someone for years and now you're having a falling out, being able to reach back into that relationship and remember will help get you to a resolution quicker and with less animosity.
SPEAKER_02:And maybe it becomes a little less about ego.
SPEAKER_01:Oh, yeah.
SPEAKER_02:Maybe that. One of the things that you've taught me, and that I think is so important, is that estate planning for pets is so important and a growing area. Can you talk a little bit about why that's so important?
SPEAKER_01:Oh, yeah, because I broke my ankle in 2014 and I had nine dogs. And my husband, who I love and I'm still married to, said to me, I'm taking care of you, I'm not taking care of the dogs. You're gonna have to figure it out. And my dogs all ate in the basement. Their run was down the basement steps, out the backyard. So I realized I hadn't planned for the care of my pets. I just always thought I'd be there. And we all do. We all think we're gonna be there, and nothing's ever gonna happen to us. And if it does, it'll be short term. And and my son, my daughter, my husband, my neighbor, my you know, breed friends. No, and because I'm in the dog show world, it is it is an imperative because we all have like nine dogs, because we're relatively crazy. And there's nowhere where you can find somebody who's gonna take care of nine dogs in show condition unless you make a plan. Right, nine plus their nine. Yeah, nine plus their nine, right? So so I I wrote what was first called I'm not dead yet. Um, that was the first name of the plan. And then I thought, well, that's funny, but people don't probably know what I mean. And so I changed it to the map plan, M-A-A-P, navigating the journey your pet takes when you can't care for it short and long term. Most of the people on this call who are trust and estate attorneys probably do ask their clients if they have pets. And some of them may make a pet trust, and some of them may write down, if I die, this is where my dogs go, because there's never going to come a time when I can't take care of my dog. I would never be incapable of taking care of my dog, unless, of course, I had a stroke or I was diagnosed with Alzheimer's, or I have a concussion and I'm out. So there we have the 12 D's, which I won't go into, but if you go on my website, you can find them, where you really have to plan. And now I've added there used to be like 10, I've added two because we have deployment and we have deportation. People who have pets who are deported, what happens to their pets? And if they don't have a plan, that pets go into the shelter and may or may not, depending on its breed, get out again. That's so true.
SPEAKER_02:And I mean, that that's a big part of like sort of having emergency custody, basically, and making sure that that's in place. Uh so the advice you'd give to pet owners then would be to make a plan.
SPEAKER_01:So map stands for what you need to do. Yeah. The first one, of course, perfectly, make a plan. And that means you can sit down, make a plan, and there's the perfect plan that you know is just like you being there. Yes. And then there's the okay, this would be good enough plan that somebody could actually pick up and do. I hold workshops on this both for attorneys and for pet owners, because I have the pet owners go to their attorneys with this document. This is my map plan, and I want it weaved into my trust and estate documentation so that whoever is going to care for my dogs knows they're going to take care of my dogs and will be reimbursed. So the A stands for appointing caregivers, which is the hardest thing to do because my sons, I'll just use me as an example. Uh, my sons, one of them has a cat. My dogs don't like cats, so my dogs can't go to him. And my other son lives in a no-pet building. What was he thinking? But that's a whole nother story. So so I can't leave them to my son. So I have three other people who know that if my son's situations change, my sons always have first dips with the dogs if they want them, but they're going to go to someone else. And then you need to address the needs of the pet. The pet's transition to Kim. Yes. My caregivers will be so much easier if I say, Well, this is the food they eat, this is their shop protocol, this is the heartworm medication or phouie and tick medication they're on. They don't like white dogs, they're very afraid of thunder, a whole litany of what you know in your head and pre-pave the dog to have a wonderful day that Kim won't know because she doesn't live with the dogs. Right. And then the final piece is the P, which is publish it. So don't write it down and stick it in a drawer. You need to publish it with all the people who you've appointed as caregivers, your veterinarian, because as we know, veterinarians can't treat a dog unless your name is on the file. That's right. Because there's this thing called a veterinary client patient relationship, a VCPR. And you need to make sure that the people who you would appoint to take care of your pet say short-term, you're out of the country, or you know, you have a car accident, God forbid, and you're unconscious and somebody has to take the dog to the vet. That name has to be on the vet. And you want to publish with your attorney because your attorney is that gatekeeper. And if somebody ever comes and says, This isn't the plan that Kim wanted, you have someone who is independent who says, No, Deborah sat in my office and she was perfectly sane at the time. That she had nine dogs was something that we questioned her sanity. She was perfectly sane at the time. And she said this is how she wanted. No, she didn't. Well, I'm sorry, here are my notes because you know lawyers do that, right? So I always say, pay me now, pay me later. You want an attorney who you're going to tell the story to, and they're going to think you're crazy. Have them call me. I said, and we will work it through that state's laws, trusts, and estate. Because what I try to create is a document. I mean, we go through a lot of dogs. So I don't want everybody to have to rewrite their will. Right. So I'd love for them to just by reference, the plan for my dogs is written in the last edition of the map plan I gave to uh Kim Wolf Price when she did my estate work. And then, of course, that requires, and this is really good for the trusted estate attorneys. It requires the owner to update it every year. That's true. How's Fluffy? Has anything changed with Fluffy? And they're not going to think you're, you know, looking for business. They're going to think you're really concerned about the dog, which you should be. But also, this will bring you added business.
SPEAKER_02:That's fantastic. So it's so important, though, really important. I mentioned at the beginning that you um also host a podcast. And your podcast is why do pets matter? And you have reached thousands of listeners. So anything you'd like to tell us about the the podcast? Any stories that stand out?
SPEAKER_01:Or well, I'm so proud of it. I started it sort of, I just said, I want to ask people why pets matter to them and why they're in service to pets. Yeah. And when I have my guests on, uh they say, Well, what questions are you going to ask me? And I said, Why do pets matter to you? They go, but what else? I said, Nothing else. I said, Because when we start there, everything else organically flows. I just interviewed a guy, Dr. Andy Rourke, who has Uncharted Vet and he has the Cone of Shame podcast. And he said, But but what are we going to talk about? I said, Don't worry. I have never not had to cut somebody off at 45 minutes. I said, so don't worry about it. And when we were done, he said, Wow, we went into how important pets are to us, how important it is to talk to people and be relational. He goes, I never would have thought that. I said, yes, and that wasn't the podcast yesterday. I was grateful enough. I wrote a book in 2015 when I was five years into this practice called Nipped in the Bud, not in the butt, how to use mediation to resolve conflicts over animals. Very good. And Temple Grandin and I had met at the Colorado State University when I taught a class in communication at their vet school. And so I keep in touch with her all the time. And I said to her, Would you read this and tell me what you think? And she wrote back, she says, Can I write a review? And I said, Really? I would never have asked her. Never. And so she wrote a review for the book. And then probably no one on this call will know that the grandfather of veteran in medical ethics was a guy from Brooklyn named Bernard Roland, who was the quintessential show, Brooklynite Living in Colorado, Fort Collins, Colorado. And when I first met him, I'd heard about him. And I was teaching, and I said, Can we grab a coffee? And he goes, Well, I don't really like coffee, but I'll bring you over to the Chinese restaurant in Colorado. Now I'm from New York. There are no good Chinese restaurants in Colorado. I'm saying that with all love and affection, everyone. I really am. But we love Colorado.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:So so we walked in and I realized he was checking out whether or not I was crazy, because who is this person riding him?
unknown:You know. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:And uh I walked in with a dozen bagels because I had just arrived in Colorado. I was teaching for the rest of the week, and I handed him a dozen bagels from the bagel store in my neighborhood. And he goes, You are gonna be my best friend.
SPEAKER_02:It isn't in Colorado, you just can't. So also with the elevation, they don't rise the same.
SPEAKER_01:It's and they don't have the water. Come on, they have Rocky Mountain water. That is not New York City water. Come on. So we were best friends, and unfortunately, he passed away in November of 21. I was heartbroken. But I sent him a copy of the book, and he said, Can I write the forward? So I always tell people, just read the forward, it's the most impressive part of the book.
SPEAKER_02:I think every all the listeners can also tell. Deb's really shy, she doesn't connect with people. She's like, you know what?
SPEAKER_01:I always figure if you Don't want to meet me, you're not going to answer my email, and I will never pester you. But if if there is something that is really special about you that I should know about, um, I'll call you up. I mean, that's how Kim and I met. Kim was brand new to the uh Wills with well, was uh C Wills then, because it was the Committee on Women in the Law. Now it's a section on Women in the Law. And my dear friend, who's also Kim's dear friend, Linda Rydliski and I had run this program called Women on the Move. And Kim sort of asked, Well, how do you do this? And that's all she needed to do. And then she was running it the following year. So not a problem.
SPEAKER_02:I love it. I love it. Well, I also know that you speak and present all over the country and North America. And are there any upcoming projects or anything you'd like to sort of highlight?
SPEAKER_01:Well, I leave for Montreal next Thursday. I was asked to speak at the ABA Family Law Committee with Mark Manjamin. He is a very exciting litigator in divorce as well as in animals. He's very connected to animals. So he and I just met, and we're going to present together on divorcing with pets at the ABA Family Law Conference in Montreal. I just spoke with Karis Nafty, who's a South African mediator. Her group is called Who Gets the Dog. Um, so she does mediation. In fact, she she started her mediation practice about the same time as I did, and we connected and we talked to each other. So, um, and she has a book out as well, Who Gets the Dog. She's an animal behaviorist, she's not an attorney. So she comes at it from a whole different point of and so I was there and I've spoken at so many vet conferences because I don't know how many people who will be listening to this podcast have pets, but veterinarians have a really hard time for the most part communicating. And so I have built many, many programs both for conferences as well as for in-house that help the members of the staff and the veterinarians first of all talk to each other and then talk to the client. I had a uh course at the last American Veterinary Medical Association conference, which was bringing client into team. And it was all about how do you have a practice if you don't include the client in that team thought.
SPEAKER_02:So that's important. So important, right? I really, I really appreciate that. Well, before we sign off, any last words on the important topic of pet care and the law, whether the listeners are attorneys, pet owners, or just animal lovers?
SPEAKER_01:Well, if you're an attorney, I would, and in the pet sphere, if you're doing anything that involves pets or veterinarians or people in service to pets, you should really become a member of the American Veterinary Medical Law Association. I've been a past president of that group. And we are the lawyers who do the business of animal law with respect to business. And I would, I would highly recommend recognizing that if you are about to embark on a career, if you love animals and and so many young attorneys now want to bring animal law into their practice, they might work for, I know a lot of them work for huge firms, and this is their pro bono. Yes. Take a mediation course. Great idea. Because it will help you in the long run listen better. So you actively listen, ask curious questions, and when you're putting your arguments together, put them together in a way, as I said, be the person your pet thinks you are. Put them together in a way that is not totally adversarial because you're you're just going to be banging heads. And it doesn't really serve the pet. So that's why I do what I do, because I want to make sure that everyone remembers why they're in the room.
SPEAKER_02:That's so important. Oh my gosh, so important and great advice. Well, Deb, you know, I always love the chance to speak with you, even if I have to arrange a podcast to make that happen. Thank you for joining us today on behalf of my little girl and all the pets out there. Thank you for really talking to us and giving us such great information. Your work is inspiring. I appreciate you deeply. And thanks for sharing your insight and stories with us.
SPEAKER_01:Well, thank you for having me. I'm so grateful for this opportunity to teach the attorneys at Bond and those who listen to the podcast that there is an alternative. And don't be afraid to try it. Try it. You'll like it. I love it. Thanks so much, Steph.
SPEAKER_02:You're welcome. Thank you for tuning in to this episode of Legally Bond. If you're listening and have any questions for me, want to hear from someone at the firm, or have a suggestion for a future topic, please email us at legally bond at BSK.com. Also, don't forget to rate, review, and subscribe to Legally Bond wherever podcasts are downloaded. Until our next talk, be well.
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