Smarter Solutions for New Developments

In this episode, we sit down with Orenco’s Johnathon Honeywell to find out what’s really driving wastewater decisions in new developments—including liquid-only sewer systems, why they’re gaining traction, and how they compare with “big pipe” gravity sewer. We get into the real-world costs and how the right approach can open up new opportunities for communities. If you’re involved in development or just curious about smarter infrastructure, this one’s worth a listen. 

If you have comments or questions about our podcast, you can reach us through this link. To discuss a project or talk to one of our engineers, call 800-348-9843.

Transcript

00;00;09;26 - 00;00;36;08

Welcome to “Make it Clear”. A conversational podcast about all things related to water and wastewater. I'm your host, Angela Bounds, and I'm joined by my co-host Shawn Rapp. In each episode, we'll tackle a relevant topic with facts and expert opinions and make things clear. 

Angela: Hello, and thank you for joining us again. Today we're going to be joined or we are joined by Jonathan Honeywell.

00;00;36;09 - 00;01;12;13

Angela: Hi, Jonathan. 

Johnathon: Hello. 

Angela: We're going to talk about liquid-only sewers inside of new developments, new communities modernizing your, your sewers. So, Jonathan, why don't you give the give the people a little bit of background on yourself, like what is your current position? 

Johnathon: Yeah. So my name is Jonathan Honeywell. I work for Orenco Systems. I'm a regional sales engineer. I particularly am located in the  Pacific Northwest and tend to spend most of my time in that region and western Canada territories.

00;01;12;19 - 00;01;44;16

Mainly my role is commercial wastewater treatment and then also community municipal collection systems. So I deal a lot with small developments, communities, municipalities and then just other commercial applications. So really a full gambit of wastewater. 

Angela: So in your position you're using liquid only sewer often. 

Johnathon: Yeah, absolutely. It's one of the first recommendations we'll make when it's appropriate. You know, there's definitely… it's not a panacea.

00;01;44;16 - 00;02;11;26

It's not the perfect solution for all situations. But when it is a good fit, it is drastically shown and it's a pretty clear frontrunner. 

Angela: So why do you think that new developments are leaning toward liquid only sewer and not big pipe sewer solutions? 

Johnathon: I'd say let's, let's back up a little bit and I guess preface this with some people that may not understand kind of the options that are out there.

00;02;11;28 - 00;02;39;08

Treatment, there's thousands of options. You know, really multiple manufacturers in every type of arrangement of treatment. And there's been numerous ways to treat wastewater. Collection systems is a little bit different. There really are only four options even out there to pick from as far as solutions go. You have grinder pump systems. You have typical, you know, gravity, big pipe is what we're coining

00;02;39;10 - 00;03;03;22

I guess gravity as a big pipe solution. And then there's also vacuum sewer systems and liquid only sewer or septic tank effluent pumping. Septic tank effluent pumping is what Orenco really is the lead, the world leader I guess you would say in that type of technology and you know, there is a little bit biased here, but it's what I push and what I'm a big proponent for.

00;03;03;24 - 00;03;29;29

Why I think that developments are kind of leaning towards this liquid only sewer over traditional gravity, or big pipe, is kind of the capital cost. That initial upfront cost, I think is one of the biggest driving factors. But the longevity does play, that 50 year, 30 year cost cycle, life cycle analysis definitely plays into it. But let's, let's go into I guess a scenario with big pipe.

00;03;29;29 - 00;03;49;17

So gravity sewer systems. You know, everyone's probably walked down the street. They've seen a sewer manhole, they've seen the Ninja Turtles. They've you know, they, they know, they know what a sewer pipe system looks. 

Angela: If you haven't seen the Ninja Turtles, you should probably look it up on YouTube. 

Shawn: Right. 

Johnathon: But it's like a five year old could say, you know, that's a sewer system, right?

00;03;49;18 - 00;04;14;19

And it's gravity. So traditionally it flows downhill or you dig deeper into the ground and your pipe has a natural slope and it's flowing with gravity. But eventually you run out of either distance in the ground where it's feasible to dig, or the topography, the actual land curvature doesn't suit for gravity. And then you end up with these big lift stations.

00;04;14;21 - 00;04;42;24

Well, that sewer doesn't care if there's one person using it or the full build out. You're really having to build that lift station for that max potential biggest, you know, flow. So that capital investment right off the bat is, hey, you need to put in a lift station for a million homes. And, you know, he may not sell about ten homes in that first five years, but he's had to put the capital infrastructure for this million home plot of land or development.

00;04;42;25 - 00;05;10;17

So that's a big hurdle on being able to, you know… 

Angela: Huge upfront cost that doesn't pay off for… 

Johnathon: up front cost. 

Angela: potentially decades.

Shawn: It just sits there without being used.

Johnathon: And then to kind of go back to what is septic tank effluent pumping. Well, septic tank effluent pumping is there's tanks at each individual property and you're actually leaving the solids in the tank and you're pumping just the liquid out of those tanks to the community sewer system.

00;05;10;17 - 00;05;31;16

So effectively now you have a water line instead of a sewer line. And it's a pressurized line. But that makes it extremely feasible as far as cost dollars go, because now that it's a water line, you can use much smaller diameter pipe. You don't care about that slope, so you don't need to dig extremely deep trenches to get this system in the ground.

00;05;31;16 - 00;06;02;09

And you don't need lift stations because each on lot tank has its own pump or its own theoretical lift station. So, so a developer, now what he's doing is he's just fronting these lots with, let's say, you know, a two inch diameter line can front about 150 homes. But if all he has to do is put in a two inch diameter pipe at the front near the the roadway, and then when someone buys their home, they either purchase their own tank or, you know, that community coffer funds it, the municipality funds it, however, that may be.

00;06;02;09 - 00;06;26;28

But now that that capital cost, you know, is, is accounted for when that home is actually purchased and really no infrastructure up to that point, besides that small diameter pipe was, was required for that neighborhood to, to have a community system. 

Angela: So you've talked a lot about the upfront costs, but what about the full life cycle costs.

00;06;27;05 - 00;06;49;12

Johnathon: Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. You know, I do a lot of community systems where it could be 1000 community members. You know, they're applying for grant funding. They're a antiquated system. Maybe they're 50 years old and just things are no longer working the way they're supposed to. So they apply for government funds, and they go through these processes to acquire these funds.

00;06;49;12 - 00;07;12;25

And, you know, in that list of clean water, you know, state revolving funds, I just see replacement lift stations. I see antiquated gravity sewers. I never see a step system. I never see a liquid only sewer, because usually it's a homeowner replacing a small cost component. And that's what's all over those years, contributing to the health and the, the overall health of the system.

00;07;12;27 - 00;07;35;02

Unknown

And it's, it's on each individual lot. There's no, there's no real expensive maintenance items, you know, 20 years down the road where they're having to apply for these large amounts, millions of dollars of grant funding. It's my float went out. I need to spend $100 on year eight. 

Angela: Yeah, exactly. 

Johnathon: So it's much… the cost analysis, 30 year life cycle,

00;07;35;08 - 00;07;55;16

we're definitely going to be one of the more competitive options in comparison to a gravity or like a grinder pump. I mean, everything inside that tank is pretty straightforward and simple. There's a low cost well pump and some floats and a pretty simplistic control panel. So not, not much I want to say figure wise, it's around $12 or so

00;07;55;17 - 00;08;21;14

a month is kind of what we see with the pump outs of the tanks. So you know, compare that to a $40 to $100 sewer bill in some situations where they're still having to ask for government assistance on year 20 or 30, I think that kind of is pretty transparent. 

Angela: Yeah. Should be. So where do you see the biggest untapped potential for liquid only sewers in new developments?

00;08;21;16 - 00;08;42;18

Johnathon: I think it just unlocks maybe a thought of, hey, is this land that we didn't think was possibility now feasible? 

Angela: Right. 

Johnathon: You know, there's the option of just, hey, we're going to become our own self-sufficient little community. We're going to have our own treatment unit, and we're just going to pump to our own system, and we're going to be self-sufficient.

00;08;42;18 - 00;09;17;26

But now there's kind of this option where, hey, this plot of land is three miles from an existing municipality that has an existing wastewater treatment plant. Maybe it wasn't feasible to do or it wasn't cost effective with a large gravity pipe and $2 million lift stations, but a two inch sewer main running three miles at just below the frost depth right, is a lot more “pencilable” I guess would be a made up term for it, but it pencils out a lot better and that capital investment isn't so up front on just the developer.

00;09;17;26 - 00;09;43;13

It's more can be either turned into the municipality as a revenue growth or more ratepayers for their system, or it's, you know, their as a homeowner paying that bill for their equipment, on their infrastructure, on their own property. 

Angela: Yeah. So would you say that's how it's changed the conversation in new developments as far their sewer goes, because it gives more options?

00;09;43;14 - 00;10;21;14

Johnathon: I would say so. These are just areas that were a untouchable piece of property simply because, you know, a sewer… it's, it's political. Its economic. There's really every facet of society in some way is put into your sewer system as weird and as odd as it is, but it's also a gatekeeper. There's a lot of communities that put moratoriums in place because their sewer is at capacity, and they almost hold it there to prevent the community from growing, you know, so there's, there's, or there's just a, you know, there's hurdles.

00;10;21;17 - 00;10;46;23

And a lot of times they utilize these hurdles to make objectives in the direction they want to go with this sewer. But I guess having these tools in your tool belt, as a developer, you can combat those in a sense and say, wait, you know, we're going to send you less strength wastewater consistent flows daily… You know, you're going to have less solid waste, lower costs, all of these things. They can now kind of flip the script and say, wait, this is all a win.

00;10;46;23 - 00;11;08;15

This is a win for everybody. We're extending the urban growth area. We're providing low income housing. You know, all of these types of things. There's not a really a, an urban community right now that's not at it seems as far as population growth. It feels like all the infrastructure is hurting in, you know, it seems like the common… 

Anela: Or aging out.

00;11;08;16 - 00;11;34;12

Shawn: Yeah we're seeing that more and more.

Johnathon: Aging out, at capacity, leaky you know, systems. 

Angela: Oh don't get me started on…

Shawn: It’s in the news enough already. 

Angela: Yeah. Every week. 

Johnathon: Yeah I said that the other day. It was, you know, there's not a day where I type into Google of a wastewater system that has a spillover, and it's, it's every single day throughout the United States.

00;11;34;14 - 00;12;11;14

And most often it's just, oh, we had a rain event. So now let's just evacuate our whole plant. 

Angela: Yeah. Whoops. Overflows. My bad. Yeah. We, Shawn and I do the In the News podcast every few months. We do it where we talk about the headlines around wastewater. And it's, the top headline is almost always spills. 

Johnathon: Oh yeah. And as a surfer, it's like you go to the beach and you just get these signs that say, don't go in the water because they had a rain event and there's just sewage in your ocean.

00;12;11;16 - 00;12;35;08

Angela: You’re like, is that necessary? Does that have to happen? No, it doesn’t.

Johnathon: I mean, that's a little kind of off topic of exactly developments. But, you know, having a sealed, completely watertight small diameter sewer pipe… You know, I'd be more, much more comfortable knowing that's going in and running a pipe three miles than five lift stations and three miles through a desert that no one's really looking at.

00;12;35;10 - 00;12;58;09

You know how, how much many gallons are going to seep into the groundwater in that 30 year life cycle? 

Angela: Yeah. Yeah, I think that is very on topic, because part of this whole thing, like we always talk about the money and the cost of it and the ease of installation and all of that, but when it really comes down to it, it is also protecting the environment.

00;12;58;10 - 00;13;17;19

Angela: It is protecting the groundwater. 

Johnathon: For me, that's the number one thing that I enjoy about my job is because I get to say, oh, yeah, I, you know, I saved that river. I'm exaggerating, but in a sense it’s like…

Angela: Are you exaggerating though? We talk about it like it's an exaggeration because we're like, oh, you know, but we did.

Johnathon: We did.

00;13;17;20 - 00;13;47;08

Exactly. And there's complete communities. You know, I've seen communities try to hit this $100 million gravity sewer mark and struggled. Never got funding. Five years down the road. Still… 

Angela: You see it all the time.

Johnathon: you see it all the tilme.

Angela: They'll spend tens of thousands of dollars on feasibility studies. And the feasibility study will say you need to spend a bazillion dollars on this big pipe system, and they can't find the funding,

00;13;47;10 - 00;14;08;29

they can't support it. They don't have the money to do it. And then 5 or 10 years later, they're spending tens of thousands of dollars again to do feasibility studies and…

Johnathon: To spin the wheel again. 

Angela: To spin the wheel again. To not be able to fund it, to not be able to find the money. And…

Shawn: When there are solutions out there that would solve that issue very easily, for a fraction of the cost.

00;14;09;00 - 00;14;44;04

Angela: Yes. 

Johnathon: Yeah. And it's you know, there's I guess there's still a lot of politics, there's a lot of money at stake. There's a lot of factors that make those decisions. But it's, it's on the bad ones. It's almost criminal. You know, I've seen some where… I recently was part of a evaluation and they came to the, you know, end dollar and the amount of homes and ended up being $130,000 a home to not even actually physically connect the house to get the sewer to the front of their property.

00;14;44;05 - 00;15;08;03

So, and they didn't have a mandatory connection. So the end goal was, hey, we need to protect this river. And so we're getting off of traditional septic tank drain fields. And that's why the whole evaluation in the project started. And then they come to, oh, it's going to be $130,000, but you're not going to mandatory Connect. And I redid the evaluation and it was, you know, some five miles of pipe

00;15;08;03 - 00;15;34;10

and I think it was like 28 homes or something. It wasn't even like a big check off the box. And I believe I was in the $20,000, $25,000 range per home, which was more realistic. And that was actually fronting, including the tank connecting to the home. You know, a whole everybody's… 

Angela: Actually having the sewer implemented. 

Johnathon: Exactly. And it's just kind of mind blowing that that figure even passed the sniff test.

00;15;34;11 - 00;15;52;17

Like, how is that even…

Angela: Yeah. Somebody said, yeah, that makes great sense. 

Johnathon: Yeah. And I came in the room at, you know, the 10th hour. It's really hard to make a change. The funding has already been allocated. But it was like, wait, I guess I'm sorry that I am late to the party, but no one said, what are we doing? 

00;15;52;19 - 00;16;14;03

Angela: Yeah, did nobody look around the room and go, this does not make sense. 

Johnathon: Yeah, like my house. Maybe. You know, I'm $300,000 and I need $130,000 sewer connection at the front. 

Angela: Right. You just added a third of the cost of my home. 

Johnathon: Exactly. So you can flush… 

Angela: To not make me connect. 

Johnathon: Yeah, to not make you connect. Exactly. 

00;16;14;05 - 00;16;36;15

Angela: That's insane. 

Johnathon: And then that connection fee $10,000, $15,000… It's like you look around who has that and who, who… 

Angela: Well, that's $10,000 or $15,000 on top of the $130,000 

Shawn: To bring the pipe to the front. 

Johnathon: Yeah. And, you know, some of them think that they're getting this $130,000 solution. But you're, it's, it's not like you're, you're not getting the value out of that.

00;16;36;15 - 00;16;55;18

You're getting a system that in the next 30 years is going to become a headache again. It's going to be financially… It's not even financially suitable here. I mean, if you take $130,000, multiply it by 30 and 12, 30 years, 12 months a year. I bet you it's some number that they're never going to pay for it. 

Angela: Never.

00;16;55;24 - 00;17;23;24

Never. Never. Most likely. 

Shawn: Most likely. 

Angela: So if you had a crystal ball and could see the future. What do you think you would see as the future of new developments in terms of wastewater collection and treatment? 

Johnathon: Well, you know, as I said in the beginning, I'm a huge proponent of step system. So I think, you know, I would love for that to be the front runner in community systems.

00;17;23;24 - 00;17;52;17

But, you know, I guess a, a reasonable or a goal that I think is, is reachable would simply be that it's evaluated fairly on the same level as a community gravity… gravity system or, you know, as the front runner, it is the best solution oftentimes for these developments. You don't know what population growth. I could go on and on of why it's such a better fit solution. 

Angela: Why it makes the most sense. 

Johnathon: But just put it fairly to the table.

00;17;52;17 - 00;18;15;15

There are situations where I would advocate go, the gravity system is the best solution. You're not going to put a step system in downtown Seattle, It's a horrible option. There's its place. But there are, you know, in that that instance…

Angela: Already established areas that are in large metropolitan cities…

Johnathon: A gravity system is the way to go. You already have turtles down there.

00;18;15;17 - 00;18;41;15

Angela: Yeah. It's fine, it's fine. 

Johnathon: You know, it's… 

Angela: Just support it. It’s fine.

Johnathon: Someone’s got to save the city. But I mean there there's those cases like I just kind of stated where it's, it's so obvious that we are a better solution. You know, running a ten mile pipe through bedrock in a place that is uphill. Why are we going through for a gravity sewer solution?

00;18;41;15 - 00;19;05;08

Why is that the front running option? So I think in my crystal ball, I do think that we're going to start having those conversations with the right people. You know, the politicians, the big engineering firms, and they're going to give the credibility to a step system that it really deserves. And it's going to be seen as, hey, this is the easy solution.

00;19;05;08 - 00;19;26;21

This is the easy frontrunner. You know, we're… it's our tax dollars. I really hate it when I'm working on an Oregon State or of Oregon Project. And they're evaluating a system and saying it's a $100,000 a home, and then it's just paying engineering firms to do feasibility studies for ten years. And…

Angela: You're like, this doesn't have to be like this.

Johnathon: it’s like, well, there goes my money.

00;19;26;22 - 00;19;45;22

Shawn: Yeah, there's a better way.

Angela: There goes my tax dollars. 

Johnathon: And those same systems already have a water line. You already have a fiber optic line. You know, it's, it's like the step systems installed in the exact same methodology as fiber optics or a water line, and those are already in place. But you're spinning your wheels for ten years on a sewer.

00;19;45;24 - 00;20;05;09

It’s like, you’ve already done it. 

Angela: It doesn’t that make sense? 

Johnathon: Already done it. 

Angela: You've done this once. 

Shawn: Yeah. That decision should be just as easy as the decision to put in the fiber optic line.

Johnathon: It should be. 

Shawn: Or the water line. 

Angela: Yup. Should be. All right. Well, anything else you want people to know? 

Johnathon: No. It was fun for letting me get that off my chest.

00;20;05;09 - 00;20;32;26

I appreciate it. 

Angela: You can sleep better this weekend. 

Johnathon: Yes. 

Angela: All right. Well, thank you, Jonathan, for joining us. And thank you all for listening. 

We want to thank you again for joining us today. Before you go, don't forget to subscribe where you listen to podcasts so you're notified when new episodes are posted. Also, you can leave your comments or suggestions through the contact link on our website, www.orenco.com. Until next time. Have a great day!