Romanistan

Mother Ramona Torres: Brazilian Shuvanni (Witch)

• Jezmina Von Thiele and Paulina Stevens • Season 5 • Episode 18

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"Mother Ramona" Torres was born in the 1960s in a Kalon campsite in Realengo, Rio de Janeiro, Brazil. Raised in a traditional Kalon Evoriana family, Ramona embodies the role of a Shuvanni—a spiritual guide, storyteller, and keeper of Romani magic and culture. Passionate about literature and mysticism from an early age, she began preserving her heritage through writing and teaching. Deeply devoted to Ramasordé—the spiritual path of her people—Ramona offers rituals, readings, and ceremonies rooted in Kalon wisdom. She began teaching at a time when sharing Romani magic publicly was rare, and became a respected figure in holistic and esoteric spaces across Brazil. With eloquence and vision, she invites others to honor Romani culture through love, celebration, and connection to the sacred. Ramona lives for the Ramasordé, which she sees as both her calling and her joy, and runs the spiritual center, Confraria Universalista ViAurum.

Follow @luzdeevora on Instagram and Confraria Universalista ViAurum on Facebook. WhatsApp 55 21 998883687

Romani crushes this episode are Sergio Paulo Adolfo, author of Rom: Uma odisséia cigana (1999). Bury Me Standing by Isabel Fonseca (not Romani, but an ally), and author Deborah Sathler Ferreira. 

Thank you to Debora Greer for translating! 

Thank you for listening to Romanistan podcast.

You can find us on Instagram, TikTok, BlueSky, and Facebook @romanistanpodcast, and on Twitter @romanistanpod. To support us, Join our Patreon for extra content or donate to Ko-fi.com/romanistan, and please rate, review, and subscribe. It helps us so much. 

Follow Jez on Instagram @jezmina.vonthiele & Paulina @romaniholistic. 

You can get our book Secrets of Romani Fortune Telling, online or wherever books are sold. If you love it, please give us 5 stars on Amazon & Goodreads. Visit https://romanistanpodcast.com for events, educational resources, merch, and more. 

Email us at romanistanpodcast@gmail.com for inquiries. 

Romanistan is hosted by Jezmina Von Thiele and Paulina Stevens

Conceived of by Paulina Stevens

Edited by Viktor Pachas, Bianca, Dia Luna

With Music by Viktor

And Artwork by Elijah Vardo



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SPEAKER_03:

Welcome to Ramana Sun, where your friendly neighborhood gypsies. I'm Jez. Paulina is taking a much-needed and much-earned rest. Um, and I am so excited to introduce our very first bilingual episode in Portuguese and English because we are talking to Mother Ramona today. And Deborah, our translator, is going Deborah Greer is going to um read the bio. And we are Paulina and I are both so excited to bring this interview to you. And without further ado, here we go.

SPEAKER_01:

Hamona Torres was born in the 1960s in a Calón camp site in Realengo, Rio de Janeiro, Brazil. Raised in a traditional Calon e Voriana family, Ramona embodies the role of a Chuvanny, a spiritual guide, storyteller, and keeper of Romani magic and culture. Passionate about literature and mysticism from an early age, she began preserving her heritage through writing and teaching. Deeply devoted to Ramar Sordet, the spiritual path of her people, Ramona offered rituals, readings, and ceremonies rooted in calumn wisdom. She began teaching at a time when sharing Romani magic publicly was rare, and became a respected figure in holistic and esoteric spaces across Brazil. With eloquence and vision, she invites others to honor Romani culture through love, celebration, and connection to the sacred. Ramona leaves for the Rama Sorda, which she sees as both her calling and her joy. So I will translate all that to Portuguese now. Ramona Torres nasceu nos anos 60 in a campo Calon in Realengo, Rio de Janeiro, Brazil. Ela cresceu in a família tradicional e a papel de Chiovani for hermano. Ela is a guia espiritual, and the magia and the culture cigar in Brazil. And the world, apaixonada, and misticism during novin, preserving cultural and energetic at all of the escrita and aulas, to ensinar. Ela is very devoted to Hamasorda, the caminhouse of the rituals, lectures oraculares and ceremonias, those ancorized in the sabedoria calm. She began to ensinate culture of her gentlemen in a moment that talked about the culture cigar was very rare, and she was a figure respeited in the holístics, esotéric and magical Brazil. With much eloquence and innovadora, the culture cigana at least of the amount, the celebration, and the connection with the Sagrado. Ramona Vives for the Hamasorda, which is not the chamada quantum.

SPEAKER_03:

Thank you so much. And before we get started, actually, I would love to have a language note. Um in this episode, if you know, listeners, if you're if you're new here, you might be surprised that we're going to use the word gypsy a lot. Because some Roma reclaim it, and it's also used more commonly in Brazil. Is there anything you wanted to say about that, Deborah?

SPEAKER_01:

I want to translate that first. É importante entender que isso faz sentido para a senhora te empodera e é uma questão cultural também.

SPEAKER_00:

Posso te fazer um appoint?

unknown:

Sim.

SPEAKER_00:

Pode. Aqui no Brasil também, em alguns estados do Brasil, existe um preconceito with this termo cigana, but afirmação and resistance, I prefiro usar, maybe cause in always an impression not boa, because I'm so cigana and will leave this at the time.

SPEAKER_01:

She's saying that in Brazil, there are states, there are communities that also see the term gypsy as a less than term. But she has reclaimed that to herself, she embodies it, and it's even more than reclaiming. She says that she is a gypsy and she feels that, you know, it comes from her heart. She is passionate about it. And even though a lot of people have been racist about it, they have been um they consider not a good thing, she has reclaim and she embodies and she believes in it.

SPEAKER_03:

I love that. Thank you so much, Ramona. Like I I know that if Paulina were here too, she would agree. Like we have a very similar um response to it where we both grew up using it in our homes, and at the same time we encourage that people use it respectfully, but we love when Roma wants to reclaim it and um use it as a powerful word, and while still acknowledging that it's a complicated word.

SPEAKER_01:

So she is saying that the family values are the thing that she still carries in her heart the most. And when she says family, she's not only referring to her biological family, but to the gypsy family as a whole. She also mentions how this particular place in Rio de Janeiro, Realengo, was very far away from the center of the city. It had already this feeling of being like excluded a little bit, like marginalized. And Madame Ramona was alive during the dictatorship in Brazil. So she is mentioning how close to where her campsite was, there were military bases. And that kind of instilled on them more about the values of hierarchy and order and even like cleanness, organization, that kind of thing. Yeah. So that has basically been her experience.

SPEAKER_03:

We love to ask this question. Mother Ramona, do you consider yourself a rebel?

SPEAKER_01:

Elas I'm saying that Mãe Ramona, a senhor se consider my rebel.

SPEAKER_00:

Porque o que acontece? Nós viemos de uma sociedade cigana extremamente machista, e aquilo nunca me pareceu uma coisa justa. Apesar da mulher ter um papel bem marcado, é o homem que resolve tudo, o homem mais capaz, o homem que traz todas as decisões. E a liderança feminina, até hoje, ela ainda é em alguns clãs muito rechaçada, é uma coisa vista como negativa. Mas eu sempre achei que como outras mulheres fizeram história, puderam vivenciar as lideranças dela, eu também faço questão de vivenciar a minha. Vivo numa família que hoje meus pais são falecidos, mas o meu irmão mais velho, que seria a liderança natural, is a nossa liderança moral, aconselhamento, retidone, mas to levar so I. Levar a rebeldia, noto, we consider desafiadora.

SPEAKER_01:

So she said that she doesn't consider herself a rebel with the negative connotation of the word, but she does consider herself unruly and resilient. She grew up in a community where that was very sexist, that consider men to be the ones who should carry the community, who should carry the legacy, that they were more capable of problem solving and taking care of things. So the fact that she is the matriarch, she is the one who carries the family, was a big revolution. It was a big act of resilience. Um, she also mentions that her parents have already passed away, they have already moved on to the spiritual realms. And her older brother, even though he is the moral compass of the family, and he's a very assertive person, he's a very like straightforward in a good way, you know, he's very put together. She's still the one who carries the family legacy. So, in a certain way, yes, she is the rebel, and she uses this word like, yes, I am the rebel, but because I am resilient. That's basically how she said it.

SPEAKER_03:

I love that. I that's so empowered and beautiful. Thank you. Oh, so cool.

SPEAKER_01:

Chevani, disculpa, muito nova. And a senhora do aula sobre a sua cultura, a curandeira, a mulher medicina, a senhora dança, oferece ritual, todas essas coisas. I gostaria de saber como ser Chuvani mudou ao decorrer of your passar dos anos.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, quando eu fui chancelada, I was realmente mais jovem. Andos, isso é observado desde quando a criança é muito jovem, porque tem que ter o dom. Então eu falo, eu costumo dizer na minha família que eu sempre fui Chuvane, eu sempre gostei de falar, de buscar, de comunicar com as pessoas. E isso ao longo do tempo foi mudando porque não o ato da comunicação, mas foi mudando porque eu percebi que tinha pessoas que queriam ouvir o que eu falava espiritualmente, instrução espiritual, e foi trazendo esses filhos do coração para que a gente pudesse cuidar. Então, eu sou Chuvani, minha filha hoje é Chuvani, tem toda uma responsabilidade, não só dentro da sociedade cigana, but da sociedade gádio também, do que são ciganos ratis, to get this apoy, to have this call to mum, embora the significance of bruxa. Chuvani significa brucha. And a gente também as bruchariesinhas are simples, she is saying that it is her belief that you don't become Shovani, you are born a Shovani.

SPEAKER_01:

And in her family, in her campsite, that is something that they observe in the young children to see who is gonna be the Shovani, right? And she said that the greatest transformation she went as a Shovani was when she started noticing that people actually wanna hear what she had to say. Because she was always very open, communicating, she always liked to make this breed, you know, between the known gypsy word, the um gadige is the other palavra, my hamana? Gadige? Uh ciganos? So she liked to breed the known gypsy word and the gypsy word, the gadige and the homa. And her daughter, her biological daughter, is also a Chivanny, and she mentions how this position within the family comes with great responsibility. She learned how to mother many people. Life brought her a lot of children. Like she she used the term like children of her heart, that it's something we say in Brazil when people who are not our biological children come to us and we are this maternal matriarch figure to them. And that she takes great pride in helping them spiritually, also like in a physical way. And she mentions that the literal translation of the word Shivani to her is witch. That she is a witch, she embodies that, and she makes a joke about you know, she does all these things and she also does some spell work and some witchcraft because that's important for life.

SPEAKER_03:

I absolutely agree. It is very important for life. Um, it's so interesting because I grew up outside of community, just my small family, um, you know, through my mother's side being Roma, but my grandmother approached it the same way. She only taught me because she saw that I was born and and had certain attributes. And so it's so interesting to me that even outside of community, there are certain things that still feel true. That is so beautiful, and we love um a witch on this podcast.

SPEAKER_01:

So it makes us so happy. She says literally what she says, like it's the race, it's the race. But what it means, you know, if I am being correct in my translation, would be like, yeah, it's the power of the ethnicity.

SPEAKER_00:

You know, like the I don't say the families, but chancelado Chuvani, ganha um tacho de cobre or various courses for bruxaria, tesoura, colher de pau, various apparatus, flores, sementes. It's a year of a celebration, and no chancelado of quality cargo esque this year.

SPEAKER_01:

Uh she's saying, like, I don't know how it was in your family, but to her, when she became Chouvanny officially to her people, she received a big a big copper bowl with lots of elements in there to practice her witchcraft. So there are scissors in there and other things. And it's a big celebration, it's a big party, it's a big ritual to the family. And she was wondering if you went through that. And then she says you should go through that because it's a beautiful, happy, joyful moment.

SPEAKER_03:

That is so beautiful. Um, I didn't go through that. I think for me it was more that my grandmother began teaching me things, and so there wasn't one moment, it was it just became my um my path with my grandmother. And it was it was much more quiet, but it was also very um it felt very sacred in my family. But I want to party.

SPEAKER_01:

Ella tá falando que a transition dela para Chiovanni was a little more silenciosa than the senora, that I adorated a grand fest a respect, but the avó dela en coisa, assim, foi uma coisa mais sutil. But this process was sagrado também.

SPEAKER_03:

I also wanted to ask, you've spoken about Ramasorde, uh your spiritual path. How would you describe Ramasorde to someone who is unfamiliar with it? And what has it taught you about resilience, identity, or anything else you would like to share?

SPEAKER_01:

My Ramona, how senora explicaria the Ramasorday for alguien who's not a respeito, and how the Ramassordet mudou a senhora como persona, come a praticante ofia, como matriarca, or in qualquer aspect of your life that a senhora gostaria de compartilhar com a gente?

SPEAKER_00:

Bom, Ramassordet, essa palavra romanês quer dizer divulgação, falar sobre. Falar sobre a cultura cigana, falar que a gente existe, sempre foi uma preocupação muito grande para mim, e eu acho que isso que me levou à Rama Sordé, porque falar que a gente existe, trabalhar, trazer os nossos oráculos, eu até trouxe um aqui, Baralho Cigano oficial, linda que tem no Brasil. Trazer essa nossa essência para outras culturas, outros mundos, outros países. For example, eu já levei aqui alguns países da América do Sul e vários estados do Brasil essa cultura. Minha preocupação é que a nossa cultura não desapareça. For example, aqui na América do Sul, a gente tem algumas culturas que hoje se têm fragmentos, tipo os mais, os aztecas, os incas. A gente não tem muita informação, porque ninguém se preocupou de deixar isso trazido, falado, anunciado, divulgado. E aí a minha preocupação com a Massordé é isso, de você falar, a gente existe sim, a gente usa roupa colorida, a gente usa pendoricário, e a gente tem uma magia, essa ligação com a natureza, com o sol, com a lua, com as ervas, com, sabe, as águas da natureza, terra, os cristais. Isso é muito, para mim, é fundamental que as pessoas saibam, porque eu acredito em reencarnação. Então, às vezes, aquela pessoa não está, vamos dizer, cigana nessa vida, mas ela tem aquela alma lá dentro, não sabe que ela vai se identificar, que ela vai falar, e é por isso que a ramaçoda é minha paixão e mudou minha vida no sentido de conhecer pessoas, de escutar histórias, de ver como o ser humano funciona fora da espiritualidade, dentro da espiritualidade, aquele coraçãozinho cigano que tem lá, daquela mulher que dança, que acende o incenso. Isso mudou, trazendo ainda mais alegria para a minha vida. Eu sou apaixonada pelo que eu faço.

SPEAKER_01:

Mãe, essa is a response of the sense. I pedi to mean ancestrais to take a clare in the explicit English, because this is the response that this is the most of the Sarah when I started preparing for this podcast. So I was saying that this when she speaks about Hamasurde, this is the thing that I pray to my ancestors that I am able to do a good job translating because it's just so beautiful the way that she talks about it, and I think the world should hear about it. So here I go, let's try this. Um, she talks about the Hamas or De being the divine act of publicized and disclosed about her culture. And she talks about how this brings her a lot of joy, that this is like the work of her life and that she loves so much. And there are cultures in the Americas that we only get to know fragments of them, of their magic, of their spirituality, of their strength. Because she talks about how the Hamaserde is making sure that the strength, the magic, the spiritual path of her people survive the strength of time for the future generations. And how you know we don't get to have that about the Mayas and the Aztecs, because all we have is like ruins and physical ruins and fragments of their culture. And to her, teaching the Hamas or the engaging in this divine act of making sure her culture and her magic, the magic of her people survive, is not only important for those who are now living in gypsy bodies, those who are born in this life as Homa, but because she believes in reincarnation, she wants to take that information to the woman who dances around, you know, with her incense and who feels passionate about gypsy culture, who has a spiritual connection to it, but doesn't get to live in a gypsy body now. And she makes her work to take to these people who she calls people who with a gypsy soul and a gypsy heart, but not inhabiting a gypsy body. She makes part of her work to take culture and magic to them in a respectful manner, in a manner that they can engage with, that can bring them joy, and can assure that her culture will survive. And she mentions over and over again how it's important that the food of her people, that people remember how they dressed in beautiful colored clothes, um, how they have like all the adornments they put in the body, and how strong their magic is. And she believes that that's her life and her path, and she absolutely loves the Hamas or that.

SPEAKER_03:

Wow, that is so wonderful. And it's so um although Paulina and I did not describe it the same way, I can relate to that uh desire to want to share the spiritual culture with people who feel connected to it. That's a big reason why we wrote the book, uh, Secrets of Romani Fortune Telling. And I love that you do this work. This is so wonderful.

SPEAKER_01:

Ela está falando que por mais que ela anda not describe the same manner, the manner with that describe feels much sentiment for elas, because elas escrevess one living, cigana, right? Oh, sorry, there's one thing. Uh my mother Ramona said that I didn't say she brought her cards to this podcast, and I felt it was important to say it. Um they are called gypsy cards in Brazil. It's not taro, it's different. Cool. I don't know if you know about it. Um I haven't heard about it here in the United States, but it's a thing in Brazil. I sort of tell you that the sense of baralho cigano, and that baralho cigano is a cool that exists for a senhora in Brazil, because I don't escute a respect in the States United.

SPEAKER_00:

Até o nome do baralho, baralho Lenormand, que os ciganos utilizam. Existem várias stories sobre a Madame Lenormand, but na América do Sul é um baralho muito popular andalho de 36, muito legal.

SPEAKER_01:

So, the gypsy cards, it was created by a French woman and is also known as the Lenormand cards. Yeah, yes, I know them. So you can take it over from me because she explains a little bit about it.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah, I mean they um actually, yeah, if you want to just translate what she said, that's it's gonna be more interesting than what I have to say.

SPEAKER_01:

So she said the title South America is considered one of the most efficient ways to see, you know, people's fortune and stuff. And if you allow me, I would love to bring it up with her because I saw some recent photos on her Instagram of people doing healing work with it. And there are photos of people like laying down on the floor and the cards were on their chakras and stuff, and I thought that was super cool. Ooh, yes, that yes.

SPEAKER_03:

Um, so actually, the next question was going to be very close to that anyway. And so I was just going to ask, you know, how how does your spiritual work through all the rituals and oracles you do help others? And so let's shift it to um tell tell us more about how you do healing work with this these cards, because that's fascinating.

SPEAKER_01:

Uh my Ramona, I traduzed about the baralho Lenormand, and I followed for that I gotta pergunt to a senhora that I saw these photos recently in your Instagram of people deitadas no chão and the cartas do chakra and seria a cool incredible to dare um espaço para a senhora falar sobre isso. Andoraria escutar a respeito, anda pergunta dela já ia ser como as suas leituras oraculares, o seu trabalho espiritual ajuda as pessoas.

SPEAKER_00:

É, aquela foto foi feita na nossa segunda casa, que eu tenho uma casa espiritual no Rio, e tenho uma em São Paulo. Aquela é a minha irmã espiritual maravilhosa, dando um curso de baralho, do Anel Cião Ani Miranda. Ela tem outro cargo, que é o cargo de Manushi, que é uma feiticeira. Feiticeira e bruxa tem uma diferença, não é a mesma coisa. E a gente alinha os chakras com as cartas. Era isso que ela estava ensinando aos alunos dela. Ao invés de usar cristais, a gente usa o próprio peso do arquétipo da carta para alinhar os chakras das pessoas. Isso também pode ser feito em reuniões espirituais e até mesmo com a pessoa em pé. É uma. Depois eu posso te mandar esse material se você quiser, como se faz, que é muito interessante, anda.

SPEAKER_01:

So she was saying that the photos I saw were taken in her second spiritual center, that is in Sao Paulo, right? So her main one is in Rio de Janeiro, and then she has the other one in Sao Paulo, who her sister takes care of. So the person who takes care of this spiritual house in Sao Paulo is Elcioni Miranda. And her title within the family is Manush. And she was saying that there is a difference between being a witch and a wizard. And this person is more of a wizard, and she is more of a witch. And then there was one of the classes about the gypsy cards, the Lenormand cards, where she was teaching people how to basically bless themselves and balance their chakras using the weight of the archetype of the card, using the power of the card instead of crystals. And that can be done with people laying down and with people standing up. And she said it's very cool, very efficient, and she can send us some material on it if we want.

SPEAKER_03:

I would love that. Also, what is the difference between being a wizard and a witch? I haven't heard this distinction.

SPEAKER_00:

And this significant done for feitiçaria algo que a persona no poderia magiar sem utilizar algum tipo de instrumento, erva, pedra. A bruxa, no. A bruxa, ela pode magia on the pensamento, com as palavras, ela is livre.

SPEAKER_01:

I think, I think. So she was saying that the wizard, you know, in Portuguese, the word feitiço, I'm translating here to us as wizard, comes from Latin and means that you are doing something or doing magic with your hands. So that person who holds that title is someone who cannot cast their spell work, who cannot engage with their magic if they don't have other physical elements, such as picture or herbs, or crystals, things like that. As the witch, no, the witch is more free and she's more free form, and she can do those things with the power of her feelings and her mind, and with the elements as well.

SPEAKER_03:

Ah so interesting. Thank you for that. That's really cool.

SPEAKER_01:

Ella showed you to agree for this explicit. Mãe, conta pra nós sobre as suas casas de trabalho spiritual, sobre a Confraria Universalista Viaurum, and what the senhora faz, como funciona.

SPEAKER_00:

But a gente acabou mudando porque a gente tem um espaço que atende a various pessoas in diversas vertens espirituais, não só na parte cigana, but na parte da Umbanda andaria através de rituais. Vitaurum é um nome que vem do Latim também. Eu gosto muito de palavras em Latim porque eu acho que traz uma força, né? Então Vit é vida e Aurum é ouro, vida de ouro, Vitaurum. Para que as pessoas que entrem nos nossos portões, a nossa casa é muito simples, é muito humilde, que elas possam realmente ser ajudadas através das reuniões, com rituais, com aconselhamento, através do aconselhamento com os espíritos e entidades, ciganos espirituais, a parte da Umbanda, que elas possam, através dessa parte, como se fosse uma igreja, por que não, desses encontros que a gente chama na parte cigana de masina, trazendo aqui todo um trabalho de é quase que de assistência social, espiritual. A pessoa chega ali, ela está com aquele problema, a entidade socorre, acalenta, acalma, é desse jeito que a gente acolhe e ajuda a nossa sociedade. E em São Paulo a casa chama-se Brilho das Águas. A casa em São Paulo chama-se Brilho das Águas porque são três dirigentes e nós nos baseamos nos nossos orixais da Umbanda para chegar à conclusão do nome. Eu sou de Mamãe Osum, a Agni Slipe, que também é uma Manushi, também é de Mamãe Osum, and a Elcione Miranda é de mamãe manjá. Então, trazendo essa junção das águas doces with as águas salgadas, a gente chegou na conclusion of fazer uma casa chamada Brilho das Águas. Elas moram in São Paulo, no Rio, Ivo to see the parte, and function equal. Funciona através dos cursos and reunions spiritual to the spiritual center serves spiritual work through the work of three different magical lineages.

SPEAKER_01:

So has her Gypsy magical lineage, the Umbanda magical lineage, and what in Brazil is considered tradition with traditional witchcraft magical lineage. And she says that it's a very humble house physically. But the whole point of her work is to offer social work to, from a spiritual point of view, to whoever comes through those doors. When it comes to her Umbanda work, she uses the word Mazina. And it's, you know, she talks about how sometimes people walk through those doors and they have heavy hearts and they have problems, and then the spirit or the group of spirits who are on earth offering assistance are able to support them. And then she talks about how she also has the second house in Sao Paulo, where two people, Agnes and Elcioni, are the ones who are there in the everyday basis. She goes to Sao Paulo twice a month, and Tadi has a very similar structure, but the name of the house is Brilho das Aguas, what roughly translate as the Spark of Waters. And that name was dedicated more to the Umbanda lineage that she works with, um, because she is a woman of Oshun, and Agnes is also a woman of Oshun, and then Elcioni, Miranda, is a woman of Oshala, or person, I should say, I didn't ask the pronouns. So they decided to offer this name, Spark of Waters, because of all these people who are led by Odishas of Water coming together to offer spiritual work to classes and therapies and things like that. She also mentions how her house in Hill, the Confraria Universalista Vitaurun, um, had a different name before. But then because she started having different magical lineages, she decided to put the Confraria, that means you know, different uh magical languages coming together to support people, different lineages coming together to support people. And she loves the names in Latin. She feels that comes with the ancient strength and power. And Vitaurun means life of gold. That is what she hopes to help people achieve.

SPEAKER_03:

What a beautiful offering. Um I just realized listeners might not know what the spirituality Umbunda is. Uh could you um describe that?

SPEAKER_01:

Ella acha muito bonito, anda conta que talvez a gente change that not what Umbanda significa como linhage or the sensible following about it.

SPEAKER_00:

About semelhable of Madame Blavaski, so that was effective físics. In the city of Niterói, através of a medium chamado Zélius Moraes, he received an espíritu that trazia determine for que as pessoas fizessem um lugar, uma linhagem espiritual chamada Umbanda, Um Banda, ou seja, uma banda para todos os espíritos poderem trabalhar nessa seara aí da caridade, da luz, da assistência, e ali viriam vários espíritos, viriam linhagens separadas, como as crianças, os caboclos, os pretos velhos, que foram os escravos aqui no Brasil, os orixás e os exus e pombageiras, trazendo essa reunião que a gente chama Umbanda, trabalhado de formula, but totally for this part of assistance spiritual of quem ainda is.

SPEAKER_01:

Umbanda was born in Brazil, is a spiritual tradition, a religion born in Brazilian soil. And she talks about, she mentions the influence of Alan Kardec, of Cardecismo. I believe here in the States, a lot of people know his work as spiritualism or something along those lines. Am I correct?

SPEAKER_03:

You are, yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

So it was based on that, and she considers, you know, the beginning of the Umbanda when this when they are having a spiritualism section, session, sorry, and i spirit came through and said that i space should be created where different lineages could come forth, part of one big healing system to support whoever was in need through the idea of charity and love and like divine blessing. And you know, she also refers to what was happening in Europe at a time and how Kardec you know inspired his work on that and everything. And basically, the way that she works with it in her own banda, there are odishas and there are different lineages. So there are days of work that they work with the spirits of children, and then there are days that they work with what in Brazil we call caboclos, that is in a very umbrella manner. We are referring to the native indigenous Brazilian peoples, and then they also work with pretus velos that can be translated as the spirits of the African woman and man who have been enslaved in Brazil or in other places or have not been enslaved at all, but are of African heritage. Um, and there are different lineages such as the shoes and Pongajiras that I know already have some understanding about them here in the US. And basically that's her own bandai space, being able to offer one big physical space, one big spiritual space for healing through accessing these lineages.

SPEAKER_03:

What a beautiful offering. Thank you for that.

SPEAKER_01:

What are the expectatives? And how people can do the trabalho e também a sua comunidade?

SPEAKER_00:

Olha, uma das coisas que eu mais sonho são várias coisas, na verdade, mas é o direito à saúde, que a gente vê que muita gente tem problema com as redes públicas no Brasil. Vida digna, de trabalho sem preconceito, mas o que eu mais sonho, e não é só para a comunidade cigana, é a educação, porque eu acredito que é o único legado que um país, uma família, um plão, uma comunidade possa trazer a educação, porque quando você tem acesso à educação é muito mais fácil de você transitar pela vida, porque você ter uma outra compreensão de vida. Esses seriam os meus sonhos. Aqui eu vou pontuar também, porque eu não tive, na época, eu não tive acesso à educação, tanto que tudo eu aprendi com a vida e com as pessoas, não sou formada em nada, mas o hábito de ler, e a primeira pergunta que você me fez foi a partir do que eu trazia do acampamento, era curiosidade, porque eu entrei na escola tarde, de como eram formadas as palavras, o hábito de ler me trouxe muita coisa boa. Aqui no Rio de Janeiro existe uma biblioteca que é mantida por forma, é de uma pessoa, como é que eu posso dizer? Não é governamental, é de uma pessoa física autônoma, que chama-se Gabinete Real de Leitura Portuguesa. Fica no centro da cidade, bem no centro mesmo, perto do Teatro João Caetano. And this gabinete eu sempre cito porque muitas das vezes, até sobre a minha própria cultura nos tempos passados, eu estudei lá. É um gabinete gratuito, é um local lindo. Depois eu te mando uma foto de lá, lindíssimo, e é uma biblioteca que se mantém como ícone realmente para receber todas as comunidades, independente de serem ciganos, então é um local que é muito bom você poder sentar com o seu livro, então educação é o que eu sonho muito para todas as pessoas. E, se você me permite, eu vou fazer uma parte aqui. When I falei de Umbanda e de casa espiritual, Débora, e também para a Jesmina, o que acontece? A casa espiritual é muito, ela vai muito além do que a própria espiritualidade. As pessoas procuram espiritualidade, but a casa espiritual, como a Confraria Vitaurum, como a brilho das águas, ela impacta a sociedade de uma forma espiritual and de auxílio. But ela oferece para quem frequenta também a parte da família, tem gente que não tem família, família, sensação de pertencimento, de sociedade, de acolhimento e amizade. Eu acredito que esses núcleos espirituais, não só os meus, mas de todas as outras pessoas no mundo, oferecem algo que vai mostrar além andáculo.

SPEAKER_01:

I am this second part of the response, that She agregated, I'm super de according. So, Jess and everybody, she would like to add on to her last answer, so I will do that first. Um, she's saying that when she talks about Umbanda, when she talks about her spiritual centers, it's also important that we notice the social impact of those places that go beyond just the spiritual matters. It goes beyond just like they are there to see spirits or interact with spirits. Because through the social impact, people who many times don't have family get to have a sense of belonging and to feel that they are part of the community and to feel that they have a family. And that in her perspective is the greatest spiritual gain of spiritual work, you know. Um, and then she was talking about how her greatest dream for not only the Cologne people, but well, she starts talking about the Cologne people. For the Cologne people would be have a dignified life, a life where they can work and go places and not sofer racism for being who they are. And she also expresses her wishes of good health for them. But then she says that not only to the Calum community, but like to everybody, she dreams of education because she believes that is the greatest legacy we can leave somebody and the best thing we can pursue in life, and how she didn't have access to education right away growing up in the campsite in Hia Lingo. And she was always curious about how words were formed, and she was always eager to go to school, and then she fell in love with language and words, and she feels passionate about it. So she hopes that everybody can have access to that because she had to learn through experience, she doesn't have any certifications, but she believes that it's important to give people access to education. And I believe, based on the way that she phrases it, that she doesn't mean only formal education, but just being able to learn about other cultures and spirituality and whatever we want to learn as humans. And she mentions this place that she says is very beautiful in Rio de Janeiro, that is the Gabinete Real de Literatura Portuguesa, that is basically a library, that it is different than other libraries because it's welcoming of our peoples, and it's just like a place where she felt comfortable and spent a lot of time at, and she really wanna bring that information forth to people.

SPEAKER_03:

That is so important. Thank you so much for sharing that. I mean the the context and the dream both are so important. It basically just means like who is a Romani person you really admire, you want listeners to know about them, you want them to love them too.

SPEAKER_01:

My Ramona, this is one of the perguntas favoritas that Jasmine e da Paulina. Why are those Romani's crushes?

SPEAKER_00:

Tem um brasileiro, tem um livro que foi editado pela Universidade de Londrina, que chama-se Paulo Sérgio Adolfo, nome do autor. Ele não é cigano, ele, na verdade, hoje em dia até falecido. He fez um livro chamado Roma Saga Cigana, ele ficou cinco anos andando com os ciganos de acampamento e acampamentos pelo Mato Grosso do Brasil, a região centro-oeste. The livro is maravilhoso, é uma preciosidade esse livro. Ele já se foi, mas deixou uma joia pra gente. Admiro muito. Tem uma autora espanhola que chama-se Isabel Fonseca. Ela escreveu o livro Enterre-me em pé, é um livrão grossão, uma bíblia, mas ela fala sobre os ROIs na Romênia, naquela parte do leste europeu, com maestria tira um pouco desse inconsciente coletivo do que a gente pode achar, que o cigando que está na Europa está milionária, às vezes não é isso. Isabel Fonseca, que é um livro que vale a pena ler, enterra em pé. Eu amo esse livro. Tem uma historiadora brasileira também, que eu amo, que é dos nossos tempos, que é a Débora Sattler, ela é do Espírito Santo, está na cidade de Vitória. Ela tem uma visão antropológica, fala da tradição oral, e ela entrevista cinco ciganos de visões diferentes, inclusive eu e minha filha. Esse livro é novo, se você quiser te dou o contato dela. É um livro maravilhoso. E eu acho que assim, de pessoas que seriam essas que. Desculpa, que eu estou muito restruhada. Seriam essas. E se você e a Jasmina me permitirem, no final, eu gostaria de fazer uma oração de agradecimento.

SPEAKER_01:

Tá bom. Fala pra senhora, eu tenho o interme de pé, eu li em inglês, recomendado pela Pombagira. A senhora sabe, Pombagira é cigana da estrada. Falo aí toda. So just um she said that because she's so passionate about the written word, she wants to recommend, and her crushes are three writers. Okay. So, Sérgio Paulo Adolfo, he is a Brazilian writer, he has already moved on to the spiritual realms, and he is a known gypsy, a known Roma person who did a fantastic work. His book is called The Gypsy Saga. And what he did is that he walked with gypsy peoples for five years in Mato Grosso, Brazil, and then he wrote about it that experience. The next one is Bury Me Standing by Isabel Fonseca. Isabel Fonseca is a woman from Spain, and she says that she loves, loves, loves this book because it really helps the popular like consciousness about the gypsy and how sometimes people, even like people who are gypsy, think that because somebody is in Europe, you know, a gypsy person is in Europe, they are rich and their life's better and stuff like that. And then I mentioned to her that I read that book under the advice of the Pombagira spirit who I work with, and I think is a fantastic book, and that everybody should read it. Um, and I cried a couple times throughout it. And then she talks about this other writer, Deborah Sauter, who is a writer more of our generation. She's still alive, she's in Brazil. Um, Mother Hamona has her contact. So, in case we want to contact her, in case you want to contact her. Um, her book is about the anthropological aspects of you know the gypsy community and how that has survived the force of time, and it has all this idea, this parallel between the culture and the passage of time. And this person is Deborah Souter is from Vittoria Spirito Santo, and both uh Mother Ramona and her daughter are interviewed in this book because Deborah Souter interviews five gypsies and talks about you know their perspectives and stories, and she really loves this book, and then she asked before we end if she could offer a prayer.

SPEAKER_03:

Oh my goodness, yes, please. Um what was the title of Deborah Salter's book? I think I might have missed that.

SPEAKER_01:

I don't think I translated that. Let me double check. Uh my hamona, qual name do livro da Deborah Salter? Oh Saga Sigama. Uh the Gypsy Saga. Oh, okay.

SPEAKER_03:

Amazing. Um yeah, we just we have one last question and then let's end with a prayer that sounds so beautiful. Um the last one is just how can people work with you at the center or individually?

SPEAKER_01:

Tanto através do center espiritual como seus individuais, and aí depois ela adoraria receber a sua oração no podcast.

SPEAKER_00:

Olha, as pessoas podem falar conosco, nos comunicar conosco através das nossas redes, né? No Insta é Confraria Vitaurum, arroba ConfrariaVitaurum e no Face é arroba luz devora e Ramona Torres. E também pode ser pelo e-mail, né? Sociedade Rajor é com RAG.com e o telefone nosso, que é Rio de Janeiro, é Brasil, né? 55 21 9 98 88 3687. Pode falar comigo ou com a minha filha, a Chiovani Tatiani Rocha.

SPEAKER_01:

So if you choose to reach out through any of these ways of contacting her, you may speak directly with her or with her daughter, Giovanni. Repete name of Sophia, for Tatiani. Tatiane Rocha. Or her daughter Tatiane Rocha. So you can find her on Instagram under the Confrateria Vitaurum, Universalista Vitaurum, or on Facebook as Luz de Évora. And she also has shared her professional phone number so people could write her through WhatsApp. And that because it's Brazil, you have to add the plus 5521 because it's Rio de Janeiro. And then the number is 9988 3687. And you can also reach out to her through email.com.

SPEAKER_03:

Amazing.

SPEAKER_01:

Ela vai adicionar toda a sua informação nas notas do episódio.

SPEAKER_00:

Ai, gratidão. Então, eu vou falar pra vocês. Eu já vi que a Jesmina também é uma chuvane e você deve ser a querida de Santa Sara. Eu espero que sim! Eu vou fazer uma oração em romanês e uma em português, porque aqui Nossa Senhora Aparecida é considerada a nossa protetora aqui no Brasil. E quando a gente termina, eu sei que o romanês, o Romani não é universal. Aqui a gente, quando fala, when a person fala amém para terminar, a gente fala amintura. A miltura can say asing and as soon será.

SPEAKER_01:

Deixa eu traduzir this prime, and the senora come, so she was saying that she can heal that you are Shovanny. She has been really enjoying this interaction, and then she made a joke that I'm probably like Sarah Lacali's favorite child. And then she's saying that she would like to offer a prayer in Romanes in Romani, and then in Portuguese. And that this prayer will be dedicated to the saint that is considered the patron of Brazil, that is Nossa Senhora Aparecida. I have no idea how to translate her name, but it's one of the aspects of Mother Mary. And at the end, you know, some people say Amen, but to her, to her people, they say a miltura. And that's what she will say.

SPEAKER_03:

Oh thank you so much, Naez Tuke. It just it's been so wonderful, and we so appreciate uh you offering a prayer, and we we would love that. And you're so beautiful and powerful, and I love it.

SPEAKER_00:

Imagina. I ofere a todos esses que estão ouvindo esse podcast, in especial a Débora, a Gesmina, Paulina, top who tiver this cuid and this amorphous religiosity, who received this romanes and those of Santa Saracali, Mangli Muscat and Santa Saracali, to São Pedro Icana Hori, Anelúnia, toquei, Biridiatu Legadi, An Soigod Guindissa, Toquei, Dairadiato Legadi, I Shudiato, Messi Payesco, I Bocotar, Jantis Assidari Bok, I O Duque, Anu e Lutiena, Max Murri dos Maya, Taiti Samandar, Taiti Bilavelma, Sastimos, Taiti Blagos Murro, Sastimos, Taiti Odeva, A mentora. Oração para Nossa Senhora Aparecida, minha mãe amada, minha mãe do nosso povo, nosso povo desamparado, que anda pelo mundo necessitando de um teto, necessitando de dormir fora do frio, precisando de um alimento, ofrece para beber. Minha mãe Aparecida cubra todos nós, cubra os ciganos anders, cubra aqueles que não têm religião, cubra aqueles que não sabem o que estão fazendo na vida, cubra todos aqueles que necessitam de um colo de mãe, o colo amoroso, and traga bênçãos, discernimento, sabedoria, amor, felicidade, prosperidade, saúde andor por ti. Que o vosso sagrado manto possa cobrir todos nós, cobrir not só os ciganos, but to my voice and sirva de instrument for teaching for those. Amen.

SPEAKER_01:

She has dedicated this prayer to everybody who is listening to this episode, especially to you, Jasmina, and to Paulina and to me. And the prayer, I don't speak Romani, so I'm roughly translated what she said in Portuguese. Um, talks about how she calls upon the celestial mother figure to protect our people, to protect her people, to protect people who don't have spiritual paths, who don't have a religion, to support those who wander, who are hungry, who are in need of clean water. The prayer also says that she hopes to always be able to be a conduit of good magic, to be an instrument of the divine, and that she prays for the good health of all the gypsy people as well as the non-Gypsies around the world.

SPEAKER_00:

It was a praise enorme with you.

SPEAKER_01:

She's saying that she's very, very grateful for being here. Um that she hopes that because we are here in the state, we are here up north, that we're gonna make good waves with our magic. She's wishing you and Paulina and me tons and tons of good fortune, good fortune as big as the sun and the moon and the stars. And that she hopes that we're gonna be very successful in our paths. And she's thanking us once again. And then what I said at the end, it's that I hope Mayori, I hope I can accept the blessing she is sending our way.

SPEAKER_03:

That is just so moving. Thank you so much. Paulina and I both have so much gratitude for you, and we wish you so many blessings, all the blessings, good health and joy always. And we're so um, so happy that we could create this episode with you. I think that it's going to be a really um important episode for our listeners to hear. And um, yeah, nice to keep. We're just so, so great grateful. Um, and thank you, Deborah, too, for translating and like for helping making this happen. It's just such a gift. I really appreciate it.

SPEAKER_01:

My pleasure. I did it with all my heart. Um, everybody, please note I'm not a professional translator. I did my very best. So shout out to all the professional translators listening to us. It's not an easy job, but I I'm just so grateful for the opportunity of making you guys connect. I support both of you guys' work. I admire both of you and your importance within the world and the magical community, and it's a great honor to be here. My Ramona expressed the gratitude of it for this episode. I could say that this episode was important for the guy who escuta this podcast, that's how this acontected, that was capable of doing that. Ela também me agradeceu for traduzir, então I don't so my tradutora profissional, which I admire a galera who is, because uma caminhada no parque, o cérebro funciona para fazer, but I me sinto muito honrada, mostra de estar aqui, to escutar as stories of vocês duas, que eu apprecio the trabalho de vocês duas anders de magia que vocês duas fazendo no mundo magical, and it was a grand honor for me start aqui.

SPEAKER_00:

So I do.

SPEAKER_01:

Only gratitude coming from Mother Ramona.

SPEAKER_03:

Alright, um, so wishing you all a really beautiful day, um, and thank you, listeners, for tuning in. Um, yeah, Dev Lisa, thank you so much.

SPEAKER_02:

Thank you for listening to Romanasan Podcast.

SPEAKER_03:

You can find us on Instagram, TikTok, and Facebook at Romanasan Podcast, and on Twitter at Romanasan Pod. To support us, join our Patreon for extra content or just donate to our coffee fundraiser. K-o-fi.com backslash romanasan. And please rate, review, and subscribe. It helps people find our show. It helps us so much.

SPEAKER_02:

You can follow Jez on Instagram at jezmina.vontila and Paulina at RomaniHolistic. You can get our book, Secrets of Romani Fortune Telling, online or wherever books are sold. Visit Romanistan Podcast.com for events, educational resources, and more. Email us at Romanistan Podcast at gmail.com for inquiries.

SPEAKER_03:

Romanistan is hosted by Jasmina Vontila and Paulina Stevens, conceived of by Paulina Stevens, edited by Victor Pachas, with music by Victor Pachitz, and artwork by Elijah Barado.