Romanistan
The authors of Secrets of Romani Fortune Telling present: Romanistan! Do you love rebels? Do you want to live in a place where outcasts shine their brightest? Welcome to Romanistan! We're your friendly neighborhood Gypsies, celebrating Romani identity and outcast culture, and practicing good diplomatic relations with other marginalized communities.
We love the rebels who are living their truth, even if it clashes with tradition. We also love tradition and honoring our roots. This podcast is for everyone who loves and supports Roma & related groups, and anyone who feels like a misfit and wants to uplift others to create a beautiful community.
We feature pioneers in culture, fashion, art, literature, music, activism, cuisine, and everything good. We adore the intersections of gender, sexuality, spirituality, ability, and identity. We cover all topics, from the difficult to the glorious. Let's sit crooked and talk straight.
Hosted by Paulina Stevens and Jezmina Von Thiele. We reclaim the slur Gypsy, but if you aren’t Romani, we prefer you don't use it. xoxo.
P.S. The Romani people are a diasporic ethnic group originally from northwest India, circa the 10th century. Now, Roma live all over the globe, and due to centuries of oppression, slavery, genocide, and other atrocities, Roma are still fighting for basic human rights. We seek to raise awareness of who Roma are, and highlight Romani resilience, creativity, & culture.
Romanistan
Two Nerds On Horror, Culture, And Who Gets Called A Monster
ANOTHER NEW PODCAST from Jezmina, this one with Manny. Listen to the first episode here, and if you like it, head over to A Most Interesting Monster wherever you get podcasts and subscribe for more.
Hey there, everybody. Thank you so much for joining us for our very first episode of A Most Interesting Monster. Um, really just want to make sure we give you all an opportunity to learn a little bit about who we are and what we're all about and invite you into the space that we're hoping to curate that we really hope that you'll be interested in checking out and being a part of because we're nerds that love to talk about some really interesting things. My name is Imani. I am based in South Florida. I am an enthusiast of so many things, but most specifically, I am an enthusiast of culture, particularly black culture, and the ways in which so much of what we experience in this world through the lens of the diaspora that's so much a large part of my life. Um, I do facilitation. I'm a facilitator for hire. I am, you know, a former writer, former speaker. Um, I'm just a huge fan of all things conversation. And in this particular case, we are delving into the incredibly weird and wonderful world of all things terrifying. That's what a most interesting monster is all about. And we really hope that you're interested in joining joining in with us. Um, so I want to absolutely send it over to my my co-host, my dear friend, Jasmina, uh, to talk a little bit about herself as well.
SPEAKER_00:Hi, I'm Jasmina Vontila. You might know me from Romana San Podcast, a tiny little niche podcast about Romani culture, um, with my co-host Paulina Stevens. And I am a tarot, palm, and tea leaf reader in my uh Romani family tradition. And uh just in case listeners aren't familiar, Roma are a diasporic ethnic group originally from India. We're not Romanian, it just sounds similar. Um, and we are also known by the uh more common word gypsy, but it's also, especially in the US, more used as a racial slur. It can be used more neutrally in the UK. Some Roma choose to reclaim it, but if you're not Roma or a related group to which it has been historically applied, you needn't use it, darling. So because of centuries of persecution, um, Roma have a lot of different survival traits. I just happen to be born into a fortune-telling family. And I'm also a writer and uh performer and artist, and Amani and I went to school together, actually, being nerds.
SPEAKER_02:We were in graduate school together, or I call it bad school. Uh, we met in um 2010, 2010, 2011.
SPEAKER_00:We did 2011, yeah.
SPEAKER_02:2011 at Florida State University, and we were kids in a lot of ways. We were we were kids, but life was lifeing. Um, and we just found ourselves nerding out about just the the most interesting thing. I was like 23 and just out in the world learning new things and talking about new things, and Jez became such an enormous creative force in my life at that particular time, where the sheer unapologetic, awesome, but weird nature of you just encapsulated everything that I felt about my life at that time. At the time, I was teaching a course at Florida State University that was called Race and Sexuality in Horror Movies, and it's one of the spaces that we were really connecting on because we were allowed to teach on a wide range of subjects. Um, what did you teach, by the way? I was trying to remember what was what was one of the courses you taught?
SPEAKER_00:I taught gender and sexuality in pop media, and then I shifted into teaching Romani literature and representation, and that was really, really fun. I think it's one of the first, like among the first Romani culture classes ever taught. And I was just a grad student doing my best. So yeah, in the US specifically, but yeah, and I was so excited to because I was just a baby teacher when I came in. You had been there for a year already, and I was so nervous about teaching. And I when I got to chat to you, because we started working at the digital studio together, which is also something I had no experience in. And so I just sort of appeared. I can't wait to teach everyone and myself how to learn Photoshop. And so I was so excited to shadow your class, and we had been having so much fun just talking endlessly in the digital studio as you were teaching me how to use all the programs and teach the children. And um, yeah, and I just I was as soon as I saw your class, I was like, This is my friend. I get this. And so I was so inspired by your work. It really helped me um teach uncomfortable subjects in a place where a lot of our students didn't really want to talk about it initially, but then it turned out they really, really did want to talk about it.
SPEAKER_02:They did. They did want to talk about it. It was, it was, I think that's the thing that was really incredible, at least that I found. I was definitely assuming I was going to get a lot of pushback for you know, basically showing Black Ulla uh to a to a group of like 18-year-olds, and then talking about the the ways in which black exploitation films, as they were called, were both exploitative of black actors, and at the same time, the only platform for us to tell our own kinds of stories in a predominantly uh a white, you know, male dominated space. And I didn't think anybody would be interested. And my students were super interested, like like they they were super interested in that stuff. And I and I I would love to be able to delve a little bit more into why this subject, because at the end of the day, why monsters, Jez? Uh, why what is so fascinating to you about monsters?
SPEAKER_00:For so many reasons. I love monsters. Um, I think first and foremost, having grown up in a very spiritual magical tradition, there was a lot of talk around relationships with spirits and the unseen. And even though my family for a very spiritual family was like relatively chill in the sense that um we were fairly assimilated in the US. So, you know, certain aspects of Romani culture have become fragmented or lost. And so there was, we had, um, I felt like my grandmother did have very strict practices, but she would also bend a lot of things for us to just live easier in America. But we I still was taught to respect the spirits of the forest and the water and make little offerings and be very aware of them. And when I was a kid, also having kind of a challenging childhood, I used to do strange things like sneak out in the middle of the night when I was like six and go stand in the middle of the dark forest where there were bears because I was in New Hampshire, and just be like, who's coming to help me feel better? And like, who's coming to like bring me some knowledge or experience? And um, I wasn't afraid. I was so excited. And then as I got older, especially unraveling a lot of really challenging stories for my grandmother who grew up in Nazi Germany, whose Romani family was either hiding in plain sight through false documents or other extreme measures, um, or had taken to the woods or had already died in World War I. The ways in which our family was affected was really heavy. And I often felt like we loved people who I saw as monsters or made like accommodations for behaviors that were monstrous. I loved people who had really challenging, frightening, sometimes like very threatening um behaviors. And I also started to think of it as something that like a monster that would take over them rather than that was like an aspect of them. And I also loved mythology and folklore and all these like folk stories, not just romani, but like all over the world. I could not read enough of them. And I've started understanding that a lot of the difficult traumatic experiences that I was navigating as a really young person were beautifully illustrated in these really tough stories that really didn't make it pretty. And I think I really appreciated that. Like sometimes you do get eaten by a monster, but like maybe something weird happens next.
SPEAKER_02:And you I can I can get behind that because like who gets to decide what's a monster? This is obviously something we'll be talking about quite a bit through throughout our work, because it really is something in the eye of the beholder, right? There are individuals who would consider us monstrous, your your views or your background or your practices. There are people outside who would just be like, Well, that's monstrous because it's not like blank, which is whatever whatever my family believes or has done. People who do that stuff, that's monstrous, right?
SPEAKER_00:Like who gets to the spiritual stuff, the mixed identity. My family's European and Romani, and the two don't love each other. Um, I mean, my my family gets along okay, but that's not what I meant. But just like those groups of people, and also being queer and non-binary, and um just like not being uh part of a dominant society is um monstrous in a way. And I always loved the villains. I always identified like with Maleficent when she walked on. I'm like, yes, girl, here she got who doesn't love that.
SPEAKER_02:Who doesn't love that? I was a little kid in South Florida and looking at Maleficent, like that is badass.
SPEAKER_00:Like, of course, yeah. Tell tell me about monsters for you. What what made you love monsters?
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, I mean, I think first and foremost, I was a really scared kid, I was scared of everything, everything terrified me. And I was definitely one of those kids who had a very active imagination, but at the same time, I was brushing up against interesting things that also were like revealing elements of from like a cultural or historical background. So my family background is Caribbean, Caribbean American. My family's from a very small island in the West Indies called Dominica, not to be confused with the Dominican Republic, is the Commonwealth of Dominica, has its own interesting and unique history. And the interesting thing about uh monsters for me is the ways in which they have peeled back layers of uh colonialism, essentially, because uh Dominica is like a lot of islands in the in the in in the in the West Indies. We were colonized by the British, by the French, more French than British. We have a little bit of Dutch and also Spanish uh uh elements in our culture, but Dominica is also unique because we had the last living indigenous population in the Caribbean called the Colinago people. The Colonago people are native to Dominica. I have Colinago ancestry on my mother's side, and when I learned about the Colinago people, they were portrayed as monsters. And Christopher Columbus, you know, that douche, he totally branded the people on the island of Dominica as savages. He wrote letters back to the conquistador saying, avoid this island of savages, because allegedly, um, a member of the Colonago tribe killed an ate a member of his his crew, which his people saw as deeply monstrous, right? Like his people were like, That would that is savage, monstrous behavior, and yet narratives from actual Caronago people, like in my own family or whatnot, they think that's the coolest thing ever. If we we killed an ape, a colonizer, you know, a person who was coming to destroy our lives and our culture. So the biggest element for monsters with me, I had this really interesting cultural element where my Caribbean-ness was pushed up against my Americann-ness, and elements of my Caribbean identity were constantly in conflict, really, with elements of my American identity. And the thing that I always found really interesting was we had actual monsters in our folklore. We have actual monsters in like, like I can tell you about stuff, and we'll have an episode, I think, where we just talk about things we've seen or experienced that are definitely outside of the the norm. But I saw things when I would visit my family in Dominica that I could not explain. As a kid, I could not explain it. I saw a ball of fire go above my my grandfather's farm when I was maybe like seven years old. It just kind of hung there for a while, just like dripping like little fire things. And then it just slowly moved on and then went behind like a mountainous area. And I'm freaking out. My grandfather was like, Oh, yeah, that's just you know, blank, you know, like whatever was like the native term for that. And I would go back to the States and I would talk about these things to people in school, and they would think that I'm like a freak or something like that. And I was just like, No, this totally happened, like this happened in my family farm. Um, and I guess just in general, because I was so scared of everything, it made me really interested in why did things scare me? Why was I afraid of Freddie Krueger? Uh, but not Chewbacca. I mean, Chewbacca is like an eight-foot-tall, hairy thing that makes growling noises that should scare the hell out of me, but it didn't. And it made me really curious about what things didn't, why did things scare me and why didn't things scare me. And the more I peel back layers, it just really showed me that the monster in general, culturally speaking, pop culturally speaking, historically speaking, I find the very concept of the things that scare us fascinating. Because as we've talked about many times in the past, if you watch a horror film and it scares you, there's a reason it does that. Somebody engineered something to scare you, somebody to scare you. Um, and I love the idea, like in my same horror class way back when I showed my students the wicker man, and my students were like, Why are we watching like some weird 70s movie? You know, like what is the point of this? And then slowly I was I could literally watch them start to get really uncomfortable, and the ways in which the wicker man pushes these quote unquote like pagan ritual rituals against Christian um uh ritualism, and the fact that the audience this was supposed to scare when it came out is probably an audience today I would want to hang out, like I would want to hang out with the people who who did the stuff in that movie that scared people back then. I'd want to hang out with the people having like this Mayfair procession and these deeply interesting traditions that touch back to their relationship with the land and nature, but ultimately I found horror probably the best way to reveal uncomfortable truths because in what other genre are you actively supposed to be scared of? This allows us to talk about monsters both real and imagined, material and immaterial, and I just find the subject deeply fascinating. And I think we're in a renaissance of monsters today. We are in a renaissance of horror. Voices that were never allowed to be to be in the space of horror are in that space now. Marginalized communities are making things that scare them and showing the world what scares them. I mean, when we get to get out, that's gonna be a big one for me because nice, comfortable, middle class white families were the monsters in that film, and that changed my entire life, to be very honest with you. I think ultimately I just find monsters fascinating because they reveal something about ourselves and our culture that we can't talk about in any other instance, but we can talk about it in horror, and I think that's awesome.
SPEAKER_00:I love that so much. And you know, it's so interesting. I was just thinking about how I was focusing on the monstrosity that was most interesting to me around trauma and my family who I love and could identify with, and also saw them, you know, acting out of uh out of their nature. But like the most obvious monsters are like the Nazis who caused that. But I find that a little less interesting unless it's through the lens of a creator from a marginalized culture, like looking at the oppressor, because I tend not to watch like slasher movies because I'm like, yeah, people are horrible. Like obviously, hashtag not all people, but that's nothing new. We know this, and like that's not compelling to me, but I tend to love a sympathetic monster, which is also what is really intriguing about the movie that we're going to talk about first. So if you're, you know, this is our first episode. We wanted to give you a little introduction to this is who we are, this is what we're doing. We're gonna talk about a lot of monsters and pop culture, probably mostly films, but you know, we're we're gonna venture around. If anyone has suggestions that they would really love, you know, we're always interested. But we're gonna talk about a movie that really got us so excited to actually do this because we had been enjoying talking about horror forever, like since we met, which uh like 14 years ago. I am so excited because we had you, Paulina and I had you on Romana Sun because we wanted to talk about Romani representation in horror, but not just Roma, like you know, people of color, but we were really interested in how black people are depicted in horror, how Romani people are depicted in horror, parallels, differences. And so we had such a fun conversation about all kinds of things with you. And I think that's in our first season. If anyone wants to listen to it, and please go and check it out. It's so fun. And when you and I saw this movie separately, and our you know, we don't live nearby or anything. It was sort of like it was like a knowing that that this had because we had to talk about it, and so we had to create a platform to talk about it.
SPEAKER_02:Just to talk about it. We just we just had to talk about it. I don't know if any of you can figure out yet what film we are possibly talking about that could have such an effect on both of us that we're like, we might need to create an entire podcast just to talk about stuff like this. It is 2025's breakout, I think, just breakout independent film by none other than Ryan Kugler, Sinners. Sinners is going to be our first episode dropping very soon, and just the idea of how this kiss of combination of like horror, uh, action, um, nuance, specificity. Uh, there's a really interesting specificity in Sinners as it relates to who is the monster, and and and I and I feel like the very fact that the film is called a sinner, which again from a very specific Judeo-Christian background, technically we are all sinners, but the ways in which the film delves into the concept of sin, of, of horror, of monstrosity, uh, of choice, there are so many elements to this film that spoke to both of us in such a deeply instinctual way that we knew we had to make that our very, very first episode. And so if you are interested in Sinners and some of the really, really cool things in that, we are going to have such an amazing set of conversations about that film. And we really invite you to be a part of the conversation because we can't be the only ones who saw Sinners and was just like, well, maybe we need to change our life, maybe we just need to do something completely different. Because if a film like that can come out in 2025, man, maybe there is hope out there. Just in general, it feels a little bit like hope.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. Oh my gosh, absolutely. And we're going to talk about so many other things that have made us so excited, and new things are coming out all the time. And if um, we're not going to just stick to this decade either. We were nerding out about some old movies that we'd really like to talk about. And so we have lots of monsters that we need to talk about because we love them all very much.
SPEAKER_02:So much and movie monsters, real monsters, folklore monsters, it's just so much. The new folklore. What are the new monsters in our in our society? Are there new stories being taught told? It's it's it's it's so much that we can do.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, endless, really. And um, speaking of being part of the conversation, this is a good time to mention a really interesting endeavor that you are um creating also around the same time that people could participate in. Do you want to tell us about what you've been up to?
SPEAKER_02:I would love to, Jez. Um, so um I am a again speaker, facilitator. Uh, I've done consulting work for large organizations, international organizations, and mom and pop organizations all the same. Um, and I love a good chat. In fact, I love a damn good chat, and that is essentially what I want to kind of launch. And so I am also launching um a damn good chat, which is an opportunity to invite people into curated small group discussions about a wide range of uh uh interests and issues, um, with which I, your your your lovely host, would be facilitating. Um, because ultimately I love that if you're listening to this, you want to hear what Jez and I have to say about these range of interesting topics in in the world of the the the weird and wonderful world of all things terrifying. Um, but at the same time, I also really want to create spaces to hear from you all. How many times has someone asked you, what do you think about blank? Um, how does this affect your life? What are some of the connections between, let's say, sinners and maybe your own relationship with monsters in your life, your own relationship maybe with the church or your own relationship with you know vampires, folklore? Um, I want to invite people into conversation and to have a damn good chat. Um, so please keep an eye out for that. And if that is something that you'd be interested in being a part of, you don't have to be an expert on anything. Do you like the movie centers? Do you want to talk about it with other people who like the movie centers? Maybe check out.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, because that's gonna be your first topic, you know. Um yes, if you are really excited by, you know, if you listen to our next episode, which you absolutely should. Um yeah, and if you're into it, then go talk about it.
SPEAKER_02:I just can't tell you how excited I am to be a part of this. Uh, you really need to check out everything Jez has done and is going to be doing, um, because she is the absolute inspiration for me, even being here right now. Um, we had a good cry before we even jumped on this particular one. I might do another one just for fun. But in truth, it what what I hope you all get out of this is just two people who really enjoy getting into really good and deep conversation about some certain topics that we find deeply interesting and that touch our lives and touch our intellectual lives, and hopefully touches yours in some way as well. Um, but I cannot tell, I cannot express enough how much you should absolutely check out everything this wonderful person uh is doing or has been a part of because I wouldn't be here without it. Um, so maybe something will inspire you as well. Uh, but we really just hope that you are as interested as we are in just kind of nerding out, um nerding out with amazing people, with really interesting people, um, and you know, inviting you to be a part of a most interesting monsters uh inaugural journey. It's it's something I'm really, really looking forward to it, Jez.
SPEAKER_00:Oh my gosh. Yeah, it's crazy too, because I mean, as I was saying, how when we met, I mean, shadowing your class was like the biggest inspiration to me. I mean, I don't know that I would have been able to see myself like teaching a class about romani culture, talking about gender, sexuality, and pop culture, and just our friendship has meant so much to me always. So I we are mutually inspired by each other.
SPEAKER_02:Very much so.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, so this is we'll be um fanning over each other throughout the series.
SPEAKER_02:All the time. It's gonna be constant and consistent. So I certainly hope uh you all are are interested in taking part in this journey. But a most interesting monster is really just kind of like a love child of a lot of our ideas and interests, and just the the fantastic way that I think we are in a time right here and now where there are voices in the world of horror that have never been there before, um, or at least have been there, but no one gave a platform. And now they got a platform, baby, and we are going to chat about a lot. So we really hope that you all are interested in joining this journey with us. Uh, our sinners episode is going to be, I think, a lot of fun. We're probably gonna have several conversations about sinners. We probably won't be able to fit everything we want to talk about, even in our first episode. So I hope you're along for the journey. And again, if you are interested in some of the amazing work Jez does, we're always going to make sure that you have an opportunity to connect to some of the work that she does all over the country, and of course, in the particular areas in uh New Hampshire. Um, myself, I'm based in Florida, and you know, a lot of the conversations that I am going to have um are gonna be digital, but I would also love to have conversations in person. If you're in Florida and you want, if you don't think anyone in Florida is like me, well, here I am uh in Florida, looking the way I do, talking the way that I talk about the stuff that I talk about. You are not alone. Let's link up, let's have a conversation if you are so interested. But um, we're just really glad to bring this into fruition and hope you'll you'll come along for the ride.
SPEAKER_00:Yay. Well, thank you so much for listening, and we will see you next time.
SPEAKER_02:See you next time, y'all.
SPEAKER_00:Thank you so much for joining us. Visit a most interesting monster.com and follow us on Instagram and TikTok, and watch us on YouTube at a most interesting monster.
SPEAKER_02:Follow Manny at Dialogues by Design on Instagram.
SPEAKER_00:Follow Jasmina at Jasmina.vontila on Instagram.
SPEAKER_02:Hosted by Manny and Jasmina Von Tila, edited by Manny, music by Dia Luna.