Romanistan

Magda Matache: The Permanence of Anti-Roma Racism (Un)uttered Sentences

• Jezmina Von Thiele and Paulina Stevens • Season 5 • Episode 41

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We’re here to celebrate the release of Dr. Matache’s new book, The Permanence of Anti-Roma Racism (Un)uttered Sentences.

Dr. Margareta (Magda) Matache is a Lecturer on Social and Behavioral Sciences at the Harvard T.H. Chan School of Public Health and the co-founder and Director of the Roma Program at the FXB Center for Health and Human Rights, Harvard University. She is also a member of the Lancet Commission on Racism, Structural Discrimination and Global Health.

Dr. Matache’s research focuses on the manifestations and impacts of racism and other systems of oppression in different geographical and political contexts. Her research examines structural and social determinants of health, and their nexus with the historical past and contemporary public policies, with a particular focus on anti-Roma racism.

You can find more information here: https://fxb.harvard.edu/blog/directory/margareta-matache/

Romani crushes are:

  • Angela Kocze 
  • Sebi Fejzula
  • Cayetano Fernandez 
  • Dezso Mate
  • Ioanida Costache
  • Alba Hernández Sánchez 
  • Carmen Gheorghe
  • Maria Dumitru
  • Aldessa Lincan
  • Papusza
  • Katarina Taikon
  • Mateo Maximoff
  • Ágnes Daróczi
  • Nicolae Gheorghe
  • Andrzej Mirga
  • Nicoleta Bitu
  • Roma Armee 
  • Lindy Larsen 
  • Giuviplen Theater 
  • Mihaela Dragan 
  • Zita Moldovan 

You can book 1:1 readings with Jez at jezminavonthiele.com, and book readings and holistic healing sessions with Paulina at romaniholistic.com.

Thank you for listening to Romanistan podcast.

You can find us on Instagram, TikTok, BlueSky, and Facebook @romanistanpodcast, and on Twitter @romanistanpod. To support us, Join our Patreon for extra content or donate to Ko-fi.com/romanistan, and please rate, review, and subscribe. It helps us so much. 

Follow Jez on Instagram @jezmina.vonthiele & Paulina @romaniholistic. 

You can get our book Secrets of Romani Fortune Telling, online or wherever books are sold. If you love it, please give us 5 stars on Amazon & Goodreads. Visit https://romanistanpodcast.com for events, educational resources, merch, and more. 

Email us at romanistanpodcast@gmail.com for inquiries. 

Romanistan is hosted by Jezmina Von Thiele and Paulina Stevens

Conceived of by Paulina Stevens

Edited by Viktor Pachas, Bianca, Dia Luna

Music by Viktor Pachas

Artwork by Elijah Vardo

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SPEAKER_00:

Welcome to Romanistan.

SPEAKER_02:

We're your friendly neighborhood gypsies. I'm Paulina. And I'm Jez, and today we are so excited to be here with Magda Matake.

SPEAKER_00:

We're here to celebrate the release of Dr. Matake's new book, The Permanence of Anti-Roma Racism Unuttered Sentences. Magda is a lecturer on social and behavioral sciences at the Harvard T.H. Chan School of Public Health and the co-founder and director of the Roma program at the FXB Center for Health and Human Rights, Harvard University. She is also a member of the Lancet Commission on Racism, Structural Discrimination, and Global Health. Dr. Matake's research focuses on the manifestations and impacts of racism and other systems of oppression in different geographical and political contexts. Her research examines structural and social determinants of health and their nexus with the historical past and contemporary public policies, with a particular focus on anti-Roma racism.

SPEAKER_04:

So welcome, Magda.

SPEAKER_02:

We're so happy to have you here.

SPEAKER_04:

Hi, Jess and Paulina. It's such a great pleasure to be with you here this evening. Thank you so much for the invitation.

SPEAKER_02:

Oh yeah, we're delighted. We've been wanting to chat to you for a while, so we're so happy it worked out. Um so we'd love to start with a little tell us about yourself. Where are you from? Where's your family from, your visa, anything you want to share about your background?

SPEAKER_05:

Oh wow, uh, where am I from? Um, I always struggle to answer this question. Uh, and I say this because I feel like I was born in lands that are parental and foreign at the same time. But I also do not romanticize this ancestral homeland or the idea of an ancestral homeland, and I have many hesitations and questions about the frameworks of borders and uh nationalism. So, in a broad and abstract sense, I would say that I was born on Mother Earth out of my ancestors' survival and resistance to power, empires, borders, and oppression. And there are probably probably many other factors that messed up my uh my sense of belonging and attachment to the nation state and the ethno-state projects. In fact, in the book, if you read it, you'll see that I reflect on this idea of Roma people being legally recognized as citizens of a given country, but not being recognized as citizens socially, culturally, and politically. But to answer your question in a practical way, I was born and raised in Romania. I am Kaldarash on my father's side and Vatrash on my mother's. So um that means that in my father's uh family we have kept um quite a few traditions and uh the language and a sense of community, but on my mother's side we we lost the language, so why do you not speak uh Romani? Uh and we've been a little bit um alienated from our sense of cultural belonging.

SPEAKER_02:

I love that you started off with such a philosophical and thoughtful answer to that. And I feel like so many people, especially Roma and Senti, can probably identify with this hesitance to identify with like the state you were born into, the country you were born into. So thank you for that.

SPEAKER_00:

I might steal that from you sometimes.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, I love that. It resonates so strongly.

SPEAKER_00:

Um, so we like to ask our famous question um, do you identify as a rebel and why or why not?

SPEAKER_05:

Oh wow. Okay, that's a tough one. Um probably I would say that oppression has always existed and therefore it has always prompted a rebellion. And probably many of us like to think about ourselves as part of a revolution, right? But at the same time, none none of us is only one thing or stays the same all the time. At least I haven't. So parts of me are more uh rebellious and radical. I was born into a family tradition or spirit of activism and speaking true to power. So I've exercised that muscle quite a bit, but not always, and more so not strategically and powerfully enough. But I've always felt a deeper connection to radical, anti-racist, anti-colonial, and critical theories and practices rather than to these liberal mainstream white uh perspectives and practices. So I had this feeling of this is not enough, particularly regarding traditional liberal um school of thought. Um and I think this was, you know, even before I uh I came across the world, the works of various radical thinkers, uh, and I was able to conceptualize it. For instance, during my activism years in Romania, I could never really feel a connection to white feminists in the country. Uh at the time I liked, uh I lacked the vocabulary and the time to reflect on it. As you know, activism can be really fast and reactive. But looking back now, um, I would say that I have long rejected this traditional liberal idea of justice as being about equality and opportunities, um, which is reflected in most European legal frameworks. And I've done so because I feel it fails to consider historical contexts, including slavery, including slavery in my own country, colonialism, imperialism, and the collective nature and the continuities of oppression. Um, and I'm talking about, I'm not talking only about racism, but also patriarchy, ableism, and other systems of oppression. Um, however, I can be very um conformist too, especially on issues um uh I feel powerless to change, and more so uh I can be very conformist when I feel afraid, anxious, shy, tired, fed up, or uh just uh unprepared. But as I write in introduction of the book, I like to believe that uh the permanence of anti-Roma racism on other sentences is really an act of rebellion, defiance, and and truth telling. And or at least this is how I imagined it.

SPEAKER_02:

That's so interesting. I I love that reminder too that um sometimes the well often the kind of mainstream liberalism just isn't enough. I feel like right now it's definitely one of those times when that's um increasingly obvious. Um and yeah, I can relate to that feeling of powerlessness um leading to some conformity, even if it's not necessarily where you want to be, but it's hard to know what else to do. So we love asking about work, Paulina, and I um tend to have it tend to do this. Um so what led you to your career path in academia? What was that journey like?

SPEAKER_05:

Well, I'm still on that journey, I have to say, and it's bumpy, it's painful, but also rewarding at the same time. Um, and I'm saying that because since high school I have been first generation in educational and academic settings, so I have always had to figure out how to navigate these white spaces of power on my own. Um, but I know that from within a space of power like Harvard, my voice can be more powerful and more impactful. And at the same time, I'm learning so much every single day from peers, students, guests, and everyone around me. So I'm grateful for that. But I arrived at Harvard in 2012, initially just for nine months to um do my postdoc and do a little bit of research, uh, but more so because I was very tired uh after many, many years of activism, particularly in the context in which we spoke through to the to the to power, right? We filed complaints against the president of Romania for discrimination and against many other politicians. So I wasn't in a good spot publicly. Um, and there was quite a bit of harassment too. So I needed a break, and then that break has uh become my um uh my life and uh the seeds of uh of the Roma program at the FXB Center for Health and Human Rights. So I wouldn't say that uh the United States or Harvard or Academia, um none of them and all of them have never really been my intent, but I guess that you know life just takes you to places and uh you try to do the best uh with what you have.

SPEAKER_00:

Kind of speaking of that, can you tell us about the first study of Roma in America?

SPEAKER_05:

So I I guess you are referring to the first Harvard study about this this topic, right? Um and the study was called Romani Realities in the United States. We published it in 2020 in the midst of the COVID-19 pandemic, although the data had been collected before uh that. Uh, we partnered up with Voice of Roma, a Romani-led nonprofit based in California, and together we interviewed about 360 uh Romani Americans to learn about socioeconomic conditions but also about stigma and discrimination, identity, Romani identity and culture. And I don't recall you know the exact uh data for all indicators, and I don't think that it's you know, for the purpose of this uh podcast, is um we need it, but the studies available on the FXB and Voice of Roma websites. One thing that I would say though is that um maybe 80% of the interviewees agreed that Americans discriminate against uh Romani Americans due to their heritage. And when we try to measure instances of what uh scholars would call everyday discrimination or stigmatization, we found that over half of these participants have been insulted or called slurs and names because they they were Romani. But what I think is worth mentioning about this study and its importance is that um this was a study about us, with us, in the real sense of you know, of uh of this um um uh of this phrase uh from members of the team that designed and wrote the study to our implementing partners and field researchers. And more so, I think one of the reasons why probably you also call it the first study is probably you know this idea that we extended our research beyond ethnographic and anthropological focus on Romani Americans, which was a you know a problem, at least in the way in which Voice of Roma and our team at Harvard uh looked at this uh issue. So this study was partly quantitative. We collected data, we didn't focus on one community, we didn't generalize, we didn't romanticize uh one particular community or traditional group. Instead, you know, we we we relied on many Romani researchers from all over uh the United States and to collect data. However, we we used what we call in research snowball sampling, which means that the data that we collected cannot be really generalized to the whole um Romani population in the US. But it's hard to get a quantitative study about the whole population because, as you know better than I do, I I've been here in this country only for you know about a decade. Um you know, many families would not um would not say that they are Romani and then we don't have uh official data collected and and so and so on. So this is a long conversation, but it was a study that we are very proud of.

SPEAKER_02:

We are too, honestly. It's been so cool to be able to refer to it. And when people ask us questions about Roman America, it like it's it was very exciting for us when it came out. And um, our podcast just started, I think maybe a year after it came out. So we it was one of the first things we talked about.

SPEAKER_05:

Yeah, I'm very grateful.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, we are too. So your book, The Permanence of Anti-Iroma Racism, Uncluttered Sentences of Anti-Iromo Racism, Unuttered Sentences, feels like such a special academic work because it weaves personal and historical narrative, it's positioning the reader within a distinctly Romani framework. What were your considerations when you were writing this book and what are you hoping readers take away from it?

SPEAKER_05:

Oh, um, how much time do we have? Let me say that I put my whole heart and mind into writing these books. So I built it not only around my research, but also around my personal under personal understanding of the world around me, my experiences, the stories of my loved ones, and the the history of my ancestors. Um, and this was a choice I made very intentionally, um, at my own expense though, because several mainstream publishers are hesitant to publish this style of writing. Yet I knew that the histories and experiences of Romani people have been traditionally told by Gadget, non-Roma. Uh, and as many scholars now recognize, these stories have been mostly analyzed through a narrow and stereotypical uh lens. Um, in fact, I I see many of the same historical and contemporary facts from an entirely different angle uh when I read about it. Um and like many others, and I know you you you may feel the same in many moments, I just felt exhausted from hearing these Gagikane scholars making generalizations about us. And I will always remember this postdoc, for instance, who tried to persuade me uh that traditionally Romani people don't go to the gym. As she wanted to include a question about it in a in a survey, in the survey about the United States. So, and I'm not joking, you know, all of us have been through so many of this, and probably this is a very mild example. Um, but at the same time, I could not bring myself to embrace the existing theories about the oppression faced by Romani people, especially the framing of anti-Gypsism, which I see as overemphasizing individual and institutional prejudice and discrimination. Um, and I'm not a behavioralist, I'm a structuralist, as in the book I argue that Roma, uh anti-Roma racism is best understood if we were to look at it as a structural problem. Um, and what I mean by that is that this issue is created and maintained by systems of power and privilege rather than just a matter of ideology or attitudes, which most uh existing theories in Europe tend to suggest. Now, what do I hope readers will take away from it? Probably the structural take on anti-Roma racism is the most important and original contribution of the book, particularly the exploration of its uh genesis. And in the book, I showed that in the late Middle Ages and early modern period, European sovereigns employed two predominant uh projects of violence in response to Roman immigration in their territories. First, in the peripheries of the principalities of Moldova and Valachia, starting in the 1300s, or possibly earlier, those in power seized Roma populations into an institutionalized and racialized system of slavery. And second, the rest of European empires and peripheries took this divergent yet still institutionalized approach, one of what I call spatial purity and monopoly. Basically, sovereign authorities employed methods of expulsion, prohibition, extermination, the so-called gypsy hunts, displacement, and ghettoization, really to cast Romani people from empires, provinces, cities, states, villages, and neighborhoods. So in the book, I analyze these initial moments of organized oppression in relation to their corresponding. Processes of racialization. Basically, how did Gadget justify morally, legally, and religiously this oppression? There's probably another contribution and idea readers can take away from this book is the permanence of the processes of racialization employed in the history of anti-Romani racism. A contribution that I think adds to both Romani studies but also global studies of racism, systems of racialized slavery, and processes of racialization. But speaking of global studies, probably one thing I would add here is that in the book I frame relational racialization as a process that links two racialized groups, basically transferring the tropes and the stereotypes and the prejudices associated with one group to the other. And in the Roma context, I look at relational uh racialization depicted, uh which depicts Roma and black people or Roma and Jewish people in similar derogatory uh um manners. Um, but the readers can also learn about what I call the underpinnings and protectors of anti-Roma racism. So essentially I talk about continuities and accommodations in killings, uh bodily violence, um, Gagikane politics and policy makering, and what I call apartness, but it's that's a whole conversation, so I'll not get into it. Um so I argue that these practices have functioned as continuous yet uh adaptive protectors of power, but also material and symbolic resources, canons, narratives, and control. Thus, I examine me probably surely the I examine the permanence of uh of anti-Roma racism as the title of the book uh underscores. And finally, you know, readers can delve into the the stories of my enslaved uh ancestors, uh their the wedding and uh their names and their their crafts. Um, and then probably for my Romani brothers and sisters, as readers, I offer a possible, though not the only way to discuss racism with younger members of our families. And I do that through a letter that I dedicate to my nephew um Matei. Um you dedicated it to my nephew Matei. So the the the um the book ends with a letter to my nephew, which is really uh you know inspired by a letter that you know well you know well the you know James Baldwin wrote to to his nephew. And in in the book, basically, I talk about racism in a way in which children can learn. And and I do that because I know that in my childhood I would always be taught by my parents how to behave like a Gadji, how to behave to have this mask, but they we would never really talk about what does it feel to experience racism? How do you respond to it? So that was more of a you know hidden experience that each of us you know had to experience, but none of us would talk about it. So this is one you know reason why I I write this letter in a way in which I try to speak the truth, but also to inspire hope in um in these young uh you know, children and adolescents who are facing um racism, anti-Roman racism, more broadly, anti-Romani racism.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, it's a special book. I'm really I'm so happy that you wrote it.

SPEAKER_00:

This feels particularly empowering, especially as academia has a history of excluding marginalized people and pathologizing us for our trauma. Can you tell us more about the terms you coined and why you created them?

SPEAKER_05:

Oh, um let me just start by saying that uh academia still um uh excludes and uh pathologizes um our our our trauma and history. So let me just put that out there.

SPEAKER_02:

But uh we degree, yeah, that's what we were saying, too.

SPEAKER_05:

Thank you. Um so I I I do that and probably is the result of many conflicting thoughts and uh arguments coming together. In in the book, I analyze various regional and global theories regarding systems of oppression from castism as both a regional and global phenomenon to racism in the transatlantic uh slave trade, but also the theories of uh of racism, uh of races in in Europe. And I find connections with all, but I end up opting uh for the use of racism in in the book, not only because of the genesis of racism as a practice on the continent where I was born and experienced oppression, but also because in my childhood in communism, so this is like 40 years ago, my parents and uh elders would talk about racism as um what they called in Romanian ura de rassa, which means racial hatred. So, you know, it took me a while to opt for a you know to to name this this oppression in English, but at the same time, I also wanted to express my ideas in a way that truly connects uh with my people, our history and our shared experiences. So I chose to convert several concepts included in the book into the Romani language and to make them more meaningful to us. So I kept bothering a linguist Delia Grigore and uh attorney Marianne Mandake through emails and calls to help develop a few concepts. Um, and for instance, the two of them helped me uh frame um what we call in the book officialo to the pen for anti-Roma racism, which in Romani language the term points to a structural, a top-down form of oppression. And you know, this was an interesting process to go through uh through uh all all these you know conversations to come up with the term because all of us come from different fields of of study, and I don't speak Romanes. So for for us to to think about how we can convert structural into a word in Romanes, um, and how you think about racism into a word that is not racism or something that you know you just create a neologism that is so close to the to the actual um you know English word. So we we we went through through a bit to think about this and to think also about the concept of meatcrafting, which in in the book we frame, and I say we because they helped me do that uh as hohaimata, which basically means gajikane and truths or or lies that are told about us. So it was um quite an uh quite a process, and uh I'm actually very, very grateful to to both of them.

SPEAKER_02:

That's so fascinating. I I met Delia a while ago and I just adore her. I just had to say that she's such a wonderful person.

SPEAKER_03:

Um she's the revolutionary Delia is a revolutionary chance of meeting with her, and the revolution starts.

SPEAKER_02:

Oh, yeah. So we are often asked, why are people so racist against Roma? Which is such a big question, and it really depends on what mood we're in, what we say. Uh, so we would love your intersectional approach to this topic. You highlight so many factors that are often unknown or excluded in mainstream conversations about Romani oppression, like capitalism, caste, imperialism, colonial modernity. So, with this in mind, can you help us come up with an answer to this question? Why are people so racist against Roma?

SPEAKER_05:

Also, let me make this short. Um, I'm very much aware that some people are racist because they are mean or rude, uh, or they don't know. So there are many reasons at the very personal level. But as I said, I'm a structuralist, so I would say that people are racist against Roma because the systems, structures, uh, cultures, and societies we live in are designed to be hierarchical, oppressive, exploitative, and as racist. Because how else could we justify morally and even religiously oppression if not by creating human hierarchies? And I think that for a long time societies have used either ethnocentric or theocentric or biocentric um markers or invented uh you know all sorts of myths about people to create these hierarchies that basically make some feel superior to you know to other groups that they they oppress. So it's easier to to justify oppression when you um keep people in in the space of thinking that they are superior to others. And of course, the you know, the consequence of that is that people also express those um racist thoughts uh in in their daily interactions. But I would say that you know to to change this racist mindset or a racist mindset, you really you know have to go beyond the EI and beyond training courses on um on intercultural learning. We really have to, you know, um uh have a radical uh transformation of our societies and uh systems.

SPEAKER_02:

Well, thank you. We're gonna direct people to this episode now when people have guessed that. And yeah, I would love a radical transformation of the system.

SPEAKER_00:

What was it like for you personally writing a book like this? We imagine it was probably emotionally challenging but cathartic and maybe also empowering. How did you take care of yourself while undertaking a huge project like this that also so directly addresses our struggle?

SPEAKER_05:

It it was an you know long and emotional journey, uh, but one that brought me to acknowledge a full range of feelings and emotions within me. Um so I experienced many phases of learning and growth. I feel, I felt that I was learning, I felt that I was growing, but also many moments of conflicting uh you know arguments or unclear understanding, all while I was struggling with self-doubt and fear of making mistakes. And I don't know about other writers, but I you know one of the biggest fears that one writer can experience is um making mistakes. And I've made I've made them in in the past. So I, you know, I wrote this book with uh with a lot of uh of care and uh and and fear, but I also wanted to to represent the stories of of my of my family and uh uh my people in a way that was dignifying, um, in a way that was you know fair uh to them. So I I really, really hope uh that uh it worked out well. So sometimes, you know, I I really felt proud and confident about the work, but other times I really felt unsure and and defeated. Um so it was really a process full of ups and and downs uh and every emotion in in between. So I really mean every thank you uh to every single person mentioned in the acknowledgement section of the book, um, as I may have caused uh them quite a bit of distress. So that probably answered the question: how did you cope with it? Where do you get help in in you know um and how do you take care of yourself in in these moments? And I think that I I relied a lot on my friends, on my colleagues, um on my family to to you know to to ask so many questions and just be met with love and you know patience rather than uh you know something else. So um I I'm grateful, but it wasn't an an easy process, so that I that I know when I think that every writer, uh every scholar feels it when they come up with a piece of work that is something different that challenges uh basically every theory that has been written before.

SPEAKER_02:

I'm so glad that you had your people around you. So shifting gears, we love to ask this question: Who is your romantic crush? We just like to give people an opportunity to shout out someone they love, they want everyone to know about their work or who they are as a person. So, whoever you would like.

SPEAKER_05:

So, so far. So honestly, I have so many romantic crushes, it's hard to pick just one, so we can just have one whole episode about this go on and on.

SPEAKER_02:

Basically, what Roman's done is it's just romantic crashes.

SPEAKER_05:

Please allow me to focus on a few in the academia and a few outside the the academia. And I'll start with the world of academia because this has become my own world in the past decade. Uh, and I say that I'm constantly inspired by thinkers like Angela Kotze, Sebi Fesula, Caetano Fernandez, Dejo Mate, and Ioannida Kostake, and many, many more. But I think that with these people that I mentioned, uh, being able to read their work and hear their ideas or even just listen to them speak is always such a treat for me. Because what really helps me in my work is this great feeling of togetherness that I feel about their work as we all delve into questions uh about power and oppression. So they are all structuralists if you want. But importantly, shout out to Dejo, Dejo Mate, whose new book Um C Genesis Reclaiming Romani Memories and Resilience just came out, and to Angela Kotze, who has a new book on Romani women and intersecting oppressions dropping uh soon as well. And I want to give love and respect to Alba Hernandez Sanchez, Carmen Gheorge, Maria Dumitru Aldessa Linkan, and this whole wave of structuralist and intersectional uh feminists. Uh, they are very courageous and absolutely brilliant. But we we cannot forget to pay tribute to many generations of scholars and writers before us, um, who met and fought hegemony with courage and brilliance. And you all know them. I'm talking about Papusha, um, Katarina Taikon, Matteo Maximov, uh Agnes Dorothy, Ian Hancock, Nikolai George, Nicoletta Bitsu, Andrei Mirriga, and many more. But outside of academia, I adore the Roma Army project. And I guess that's not a surprise. And uh that's that's such a super cool and courageous group of Romnia, Roma, and Romani uh traveler uh artists, and among them probably Lindy Larsen's work in in Sweden and the Juveli Penny Theater in Romania are really advancing the conversation about power, oppression, um, decoloniality, and resistance in in ways that are so impactful, nuanced, and uh and creative. Um, but probably among these courageous voices, I want to acknowledge Mihhaila Dragon. I I I don't know her well, but I I deeply admire um her for being one of the most consistent and outspoken Roma voices against the ongoing genocide in uh in Palestine. And I deeply feel that all struggles for for justice are intertwined, and it's important to stand up for oppressed peoples uh everywhere. So in my heart, too, is um it's always an everyday um uh I I am Always and every day with our brothers and sisters in Palestine and their fight against genocide and occupation. But bringing it back to Romani crushes, I could honestly go on and on. There are so many people I admire and I'm cheering for.

SPEAKER_02:

Thank you. We love Mhaila so much too. And um we always try to put the names of the crushes in the show notes for people to look up. So we can um double check spelling and names with you too.

SPEAKER_05:

And here is my friend Zita Moldovan, live Zita Moldovan. So look her up. She's amazing.

SPEAKER_02:

Yes, for um listeners who who aren't here with us, um Magda is wearing really beautiful Zita by or Loli by Zita Moldovan um earrings. It's the Romani wheel, and they're gorgeous, and they're for sale. You you can go buy them.

SPEAKER_00:

Um, how can people best support your work?

SPEAKER_05:

Oh wow. Um asking for support is not always easy for me, especially because of my affiliation with Harvard, an institution of power, with its own history and continuities of extraction and injustices. But probably the best way you you can support my work uh with and about Romani people, as I also have other unrelated teaching responsibilities and roles at Harvard is by engaging with my ideas, studies, and books like you've done. So basically, not only reading and citing uh and sharing them with others, but also by questioning and critiquing uh my work because this is how the whole field you know moves forward. And of course, I I would love to see um and to have many more of you join um us at our annual Roma conference at Harvard every April. It's always a small but a special gathering of our Romani global uh diaspora.

SPEAKER_02:

And we have come to the end of our interview. Shall we close with a paragraph from your book?

SPEAKER_05:

Yes, yes, of course. Um let me read something from chapter two, uh, which is a chapter that I call the positional exploration of my family history. I was born in 1978, legally free, yet merely a few generations earlier. My maternal forefathers and foremothers, born and raised in the same area in southern Romania, were not that fortunate. When my great-grandparents, Maria Nicolae Petre and Marini Wanaghitsa married legally on Monday, May 28, 1906, their marriage certificate referred to them as emancipated Romanians. In the language of those times, that meant individuals belonging to freed enslaved Roma people, freed enslaved individuals or children and grandchildren of enslaved Roma people. That phrase was an inherited historical social label, a formal reenactment and the reminder of the violence the abolition claimed to have overcome. Must have been unsettling for them to have Gagicane, civil servants presiding over their marriage, penning that label and silently reinforcing themselves as the masters, while viewing Roma merely as individuals to whom they recently conferred humanity. Maria and Marin's names and stories have recently been revived from the embers of our family history. The system of slavery and its offspring, anti-Roma racism, burned and silenced our families' joy, pain, and memories. The lives and names of my enslaved ancestors did not matter to the enslavers. They framed and treated the enslaved solely as valuable commodities, savage and possessed bodies and means of production. Thus, it was Maria and Marin's story that guided me like a firefly through the darkness of historical silences and absences, unsealing words written by and truths about my ancestors and my people. However, the stories of millions of other Roma people enslaved for half a millennium remain largely forgotten.

SPEAKER_02:

I got the chills. Yeah, me too. Oh wow. Thank you so much, Magda, for being with us. This was a really wonderful talk, and we really appreciate you and your time and your work. You can find us on Instagram, TikTok, and Facebook at Romanasan Podcast, and on Twitter at Romanasan Pod. To support us, join our Patreon for extra content or just donate to our coffee fundraiser, ko-fi.com backslash romanasan. And please rate, review, and subscribe. It helps people find our show. It helps us so much.

SPEAKER_00:

You can follow Jez on Instagram at Jezmina.vontila and Paulina at RomaniHolistic. You can get our book, Secrets of Romani Fortune Telling, online or wherever books are sold. Visit romanistempodcast.com for events, educational resources, and more. Email us at romanistanpodcast at gmail.com for inquiries.

SPEAKER_02:

Romanistan is hosted by Jasmina Vantila and Paulina Stevens, conceived of by Paulina Stevens, edited by Victor Patchus, with music by Victor Patches, and artwork by Elijah Bardeau.