Jeanette Kerttu on Romani Women's Magical Practices

Jeanette Kerttu is a Romani (Kalderash) scholar and teacher of religion based in Sweden. She holds a Master’s degree in Religious Studies, with a specialization in esotericism, historical magic, occult traditions, and so-called rejected knowledge. Her research focuses on Romani women’s magical practices, both historically and in contemporary contexts, with a comparative perspective between Sweden and the United States. Her work examines the persistence, meaning, and functions of these practices, highlighting their role in shaping cultural identity, empowerment, and social positioning. She argues that such practices have enabled Romani women to transform marginalization into forms of authority, leadership, and economic agency.

Follow Jeanette on Instagram @jeanettekerttu

The Romani crush for this episode is Carmen Amaya.

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Romanistan is hosted by Jezmina Von Thiele and Paulina Stevens

Conceived of by Paulina Stevens

Edited by Viktor Pachas

Music by Viktor Pachas

Artwork by Elijah Vardo

Transcript

SPEAKER_03 0:06

Welcome to Romanest.

SPEAKER_02 0:09

We're your friendly neighborhood gypsies. I'm Paulina. And I'm Jess. And today we're here with Jeanette Kertou. And we are so excited to speak to her for so many reasons because her studies is fast. Her study is fascinating. And also we got to participate in it, which is really cool. So this might be a pretty interactive interview. But Paulina, do you want to take it away with the bio? Yes.

SPEAKER_03 0:34

Jeanette Kertou is a Romani Galdaresh scholar and teacher of religion based in Sweden. She holds a master's degree in religious studies with a specialization in esotericism, historical magic, occult traditions, and so-called rejected knowledge. Her research focuses on Romani woman's magical practices, both historically and in contemporary contexts, with a comparative perspective between Sweden and the United States. Her work examines the persistence, meaning, and functions of these practices, highlighting their role in shaping cultural identity, empowerment, and social positioning. She argues that such practices have enabled Romani women to transform marginalization into forms of authority, leadership, and economic agency.

Growing Up Romani In Sweden

SPEAKER_02 1:29

Welcome. We're so happy to have you here. Thank you so much for having me. Yeah, do you want to start by telling us just a little more about yourself, where you're from, where your family's from, and anything else you'd like to share about your background?

SPEAKER_00 1:44

Yes. So I belong to the Caldras Romani group, and both my parents are Romani. As far back as we know, my whole family is Romani. And we came to Sweden from Romania in the 19th century, and we lived here ever since. And I grew up in the very far north of Sweden during the 80s and the 90s, in a place where there were basically no immigrants or people from other cultural backgrounds. So it wasn't easy to be open about being a Romani at that time. So, and my family, especially my mother, she told me not to talk about this because they were afraid that it it could have negative consequences for me. And the fear comes from a real historical experience. Because when my parents grew up in the 50s and 60s, it was a very harsh time for the Roma in Sweden. When my parents were born, there had only recently been a law that restricted Romani movement in and out of Sweden. And there was an entry ban for Roma that was introduced in 1914 and only formally ended in 1954. And my father grew up in what you might call a traditional wooden caravan and sometimes even in tents. And you know it's very cold in winter time in the north of Sweden. So many children, family members of his, froze to death during these winters. So Roma weren't allowed to settle in proper housing until 1968 here in Sweden. So for a long time they lived in extremely difficult conditions. So my father and his family were also exposed to violence and abuse from majority populations. So when my mother told me not to speak about our ethnicity, it came from a place of protection. It was about survival. So I didn't share about my background until around I was like 14 or 15. And I definitely didn't talk about the Romani magical traditions. I understood very early on that this was something you you don't speak about openly.

SPEAKER_03 4:09

Wow, well, that sounds like a lot. It sounds like your family has been through a lot. And I'm so happy that you are speaking about this.

SPEAKER_00 4:39

But within my own context, it's it could also be seen as challenging expectations. Especially because I I refuse to accept that I shouldn't have the same opportunities as non-Roma. So, well, I was the first in my family to complete a high school, uh, to get a bachelor's degree and then a master's degree. So, in that sense, I've definitely broken expectations, both from society and and within my own family and community, I guess. And yeah, maybe you have to be a little bit rebellious to push something like this forward. I mean, to write about Romani women doing magic, because we're dealing with a form of knowledge that has often been rejected or dismissed or misunderstood. And when when that's the case, it becomes even more important to speak about it and to make it visible. I I guess you have to be some kind of rebel to break through somehow.

SPEAKER_02 5:42

Yeah, it's interesting how the concept of rebel is so nuanced for so many of us. And it can have so many connotations, personal, political, and we found that even folks who we have on the show who don't really consider themselves rebels, just who have made it in the world as a Khromani person, are like, I guess I am a little bit bad. And it's it's an interesting thing. Speaking of your education, tell us about your master's thesis, tell the listeners the title and what inspired you to pursue this topic.

SPEAKER_00 6:21

Yeah, well, the thesis is called Magic Identity and Resistance, Romani Women's Magical Practices in Contemporary Life. And I became interested in this during my master's studies in religious studies, uh, where I specialized in esotericism and occultist occultism and rejected knowledge. So I was interested in magic both historically and today, and especially from a female perspective. So uh, but I noticed that Romani magical traditions were almost completely missing from the literature, as always. At the same time, I knew from my own background that this is a strong and living tradition among Romani women. You know, I grew up, my father had father's family traveled with the caravans and they had a what do you call a variety show, like a circus kind of that environment. In that environment, they had tarot and divination, and they were a part of everyday life. And and I experienced that myself as a child. And at the same time, my parents, especially my mother, were very clear that I should live more like a Swedish person, like focus on school and follow a different path. So, and um well, yeah, I I remember one moment very clearly, I was maybe eight or nine years old, and I I was standing in the doorway to the kitchen, and I was watching one of my female relatives sitting in at a table with the candles lit. And I I didn't understand exactly what she was doing, but I could feel that something serious was happening. It was some kind of ritual. And uh, you know, she looked at me and I felt like she wanted me to come closer to see this. This was important somehow. And uh, and I just I I I just as I was about to step forward, my father placed his hand on my shoulder and he said, That's something we don't do anymore. And that moment stay with me because it shows something many Roma experience, this mix of pride and shame. And that shame often comes from you know, outside from society that has judges these practices. Uh, but you know, despite that, I grew up close to this world uh and I knew what that this is a strong tradition that has existed for generations, and and that is also why I wanted to tell others about it. So I I wanted to show that this exists and and and that it matters to Roma people, and that that's why I chose choose to to write about it.

SPEAKER_03 9:12

It does matter.

SPEAKER_02 9:13

It does. We so appreciate you writing about it, and it's frustrating that sometimes academia has to be the thing to legitimize what we've already done for centuries, but it does help legitimize it, and we so appreciate you studying it. Thank you.

SPEAKER_03 9:29

Yes, seriously.

Learning Young With Dreams And Symbols

SPEAKER_00 10:06

What really stood out was uh how aware the women are of their position in society and how they act actively like use their magical practices to navigate power, marginalization, and gender. So there's a very strong connection between magical practices and Roma identity for some people. So these practices don't just reflect identity, they actually shape it. So they shape what it means to be a Romani woman, and they also contribute to a broader cultural identity, kind of. So one of the participants in the study said, like, my blood, my body is shaped by a thousand years of people who practiced what I do. So of course I carry that magic in my blood as well. And another one said, and that's that's one of the things we've been gifted with. It can be sleeping inside you, but it's never something that actually gets erased from you, even though they try to erase it, the external society all the time, all the time, but they can't, they can't, you know, they can't take it away. And and you know, these practices mean so much to many Roma women, and and you know, they're being passed down between women through rituals and memory and practice, and in that process they help shape both Romani female identity and a wider cultural identity. And one of the things that I saw is that this identity it's not fixed, it's it's it is something that is continuously created. You become a Romani magical woman, uh a practitioner through doing, through, through performing rituals. It is something that is reinforced like again and again through these practices. And it's also this is very clearly a female heritage, and the knowledge is seen as important, something that should be passed on from women to women, and it has been for generations. And what also was clear uh is that this often starts early. The women in the study describes that they were introduced to this as young, really young girls, around eight or nine years old. And and this is something that you two even describes as well.

SPEAKER_02 12:39

Yeah, some of our earliest memories, I think Paulina and I have talked about, have been being taught by the women in our family how to do this work.

SPEAKER_00 12:49

And you describe it like it's it's not forced, there's no pressure, instead, there is an openness, like all older women expect the tradition to continue, yes, but but it always based on interest. That's how you described it. And and many describes growing up around this practice like it was simply a part of everyday life, and often an older woman notice when a child is ready, and when she shows like some kind of curiosity, the older woman starts to um educate her in these practices. And Manny describes how they were just sitting next to their mother or grandmother watching and asking questions. So it's not about obligation, it's it's about interest, curiosity, and you know, recognition. And at the same time, it can also involve moments where where older relatives says uh that they see something in the child. I think you just mean and mentioned something about that. Uh you see some kind of ability or even a calling in the child, and and and many describes how their intuition was encouraged and how their dreams were taken seriously. So you you you many of the participants feel like the the older generation took them very seriously early on. And um something that's mentioned a lot is dream interpretation. That's a common practice in in Roma culture. And children are encouraged to to talk about these dreams, like look for symbols in their dreams and reflect on what those dreams mean in real life. Yes! And I I think that this builds the way of thinking, like learning to see patterns and symbols and meanings really early on. Yeah, some describes learning herbal practices, like tea reading and tarot really early on. Uh, but more advanced practices such as necromancy or even curses and blood rituals and love rituals and sexual rituals, uh they are reserved for adults. And these practices are described as powerful, like sometimes risky, but also deeply transformative. So they help women to process difficult emotions and develop strength and grow. Uh, so not everyone learns them, but but but but and that's accepted. Uh so I mean this tradition is both structured and open, it is passed on but never forced.

SPEAKER_02 15:47

So yeah, that's so interesting what you're saying about the more advanced rituals being for adults. And I think in my family, those are the things that we would never talk about. It was okay to talk about things that we did for work, like divination, but I would not be talking about my mom's blood rituals.

Private Rituals And Spiritual Risk

SPEAKER_00 16:06

Yeah, yeah, exactly. That's what many of the participants uh are are saying as well. That this is something that you keep for yourself or or or or maybe for um a little group of people. So and yeah, another powerful theme was that they or or you describe uh is and then this is really really interesting, I think. You describe uh something uh as a magical space, like a shared spiritual dimension where knowledge from previous generations still exist. And this can be understood in relation to diaspora, like Romani communities have not always been had stable physical places, which means that the identity, memory, and family have not always been tied to land. So people have had to leave their homes and graves and places behind. So what I think uh so instead these connections are carried internally through rituals, through memory, and through this shared dimension. So there is also a strong closeness to death and to previous generations where contact with the dead is described as something like natural, something that binds the past with the future.

SPEAKER_03 17:31

And this is really interesting, I think, that you have this uh magic, it's it's a kind of a it's it's a place where you can you can connect to to uh older generations and feel connected with the past, even though yeah, but I believe in that very strongly um and we we feel it in our practices, like whenever we are engaging in spiritual practices, spiritual traditions, it's an instant reconnection. And and I personally believe all of that is real through a super spiritual lens, but even through a physical lens, like the particles in the air, everything is connected. Like, I don't know, I I'm a little weird, but I believe in all that.

SPEAKER_00 18:21

I mean, that's interesting, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 18:23

It's also reminding me of um Hindu cosmology and the belief in the Akasha. Like I just made that connection now. I'm like, oh damn, that's that's really similar. And I I think the way that a lot of people talk about Akashic records can be through a very westernized lens. But it does come from real Hindu cosmology, which you know makes sense. We share a root with that, and of course, we would need this magical space. I mean, that's the whole concept of this podcast, is Ramanastan, is that we're creating this sort of ethereal archive where people, Roma people can connect and share their stories. We're not a physical place because we don't have a physical place.

Diaspora Memory And The Magical Space

SPEAKER_00 19:08

And this shows how how important these practices and these rituals are that it makes them or you connect to this dimension. What I did find was that um, you know, there are lots of old like um historical uh laws against Romani magical practices, and I I can see that it's these affects uh Romani people even today.

Laws And Church Stigma Against Divination

SPEAKER_02 19:55

Actually, I think that's a really good segue into our next question because I think it relates like how have Romani divination practices influenced popular divination throughout history today, and I think we often see that through laws um persecuting Roma for their magical practice. That's where some of the evidence comes from. So, yes, please dive into that.

SPEAKER_00 20:16

Another thing that stood out very clearly was the historical continuity of stigma from the 1400s and onward through the 15, 16, 17, and so on, even into the 20th century. There's a clear red thread where the state and the church actively tried to suppress these practices. So they created laws specifically targeting Romani people and their magical practices. They banned palm reading and divination, and and and they actually described them as demonic and incompatible with Christian values and framed them as fraud. So the punishments were severe, like expulsion, mutilation, executions, and these laws sent strong signals from the state and the church that these practices and the women performing them were dangerous and deviant, creating a clear us and them really early on. And that history will shape things today, because one of the informants said, for example, when they, the Roma, escaped the Nazis from Hungary to move to Transylvania, there was this paranoia that kind of took over. So then less and less culture, magic, language, music was passed down in fear that you would be caught, and who knows, God forbid, you have your tongue cut off. So this shows that these informants, the the women in the Study, they are really aware of the history. Because this is something that their grandmother, and so on, often spoke about. That there had been uh laws, and that there is a problem to talk about this uh in public. So um the informats describe that there there used to be fear of uh of practicing these traditionals traditions openly. So and and not only among themselves but even more strongly from their parents and early generations. So and and that older fear still affects how people relate to this practice now.

SPEAKER_02 22:45

I think it's so interesting and disturbing how we know about Romani influence, especially divination, but also other cultural influences on other cultures because it was outlawed or persecuted or restricted in some way. It's a very sad way to chart um Romani influence, but it's also maybe one of the most reliable ways because so much of our stories weren't recorded otherwise. So it's so interesting that that's that's the lens we often have to work with.

SPEAKER_00 23:23

It is. And yeah, I mean the signals from the state and the church uh historically has formed uh what what we now feel like um being the other or being something like uh something that should be um corrected, or um many of the women in my study feels that feel that they they can't be open with these practices because they're afraid of what's gonna happen to them if if they are. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 23:58

It makes sense. And I know Paulina and I, you know, as much as we get support for doing this work, even within the Romani community, we get a lot of hate for being open about doing divination and also being Romani and specifically working our survival traits and trying to use it as an opportunity to, you know, create awareness, to do our certain brand of activism, to try to destigmatize these practices that are so popular in hopes of making people who maybe care a lot about these practices that they use realize that it comes from a cultural context and they can care about the culture too. And we understand that we're not for everybody, but it does seem like it's rooted in a lot of fear around like stop talking about things that make us look backwards, like you know, stop talking about magical things. Um and it's a little sad.

SPEAKER_00 24:48

Yeah, many of you say the same thing that you had to adapt the society that you live in, often by this what would you say, distancing, distancing from practices that they feel like that that they historically led to like discrimination and exclusion exclusion.

Fear And Criticism Inside The Community

SPEAKER_03 25:07

Maybe that can also just be a part of the criticism that we receive. Why do you think Romani fortune tellers get so much criticism from within our own community?

SPEAKER_00 25:19

Yeah, well part of the criticism comes from internalized stigma and the pressure to conform to dominant societal norms, kind of. So many Roma have had, as I told you before, they have to adapt the society that norms that they live in. Yeah, well, there's many of the informants is also talking about uh that there is also strong influence from Christianity and especially Pentecostal movements. So in the study, several women describe how these practices are like viewed as as incompatible with Christian beliefs and are sometimes like described as demonic. So this has this has led to that many Roma uh distance themselves from magic altogether, which also uh contributes to the criticism criticism within the community. So um, and and this is something that we can trace back to what I was speaking about before, like the the the historical loss that we've seen that comes from the state and and the church, and we can see that uh even today in in some of the churches in some of the movements, the and and and this is something that uh many of the informants is is uh speaking about actually. So I think in many ways the criticism reflects the fear. Um I think it's a fear of reinforcing stigma, a fear of being pushed back into marginal marginalized positions, and a fear of being associated with stereotypes that Roma have been trying to move away from. So um that's one of the inframants, for example, she describes how her husband's family questions her work with divination, and uh they feel like uh they feel that by practicing by practicing uh practicing fortune, uh fortune telling, she is contributing to like stereotyping images of Roma, and um you know she described this as something that's been very difficult for her to navigate because it it's really close to her. It's her husband's family, and they are really um critical about this. So I think this is not just a theoretical issue, it it affects relationships, family dynamics, and everyday life. Um so yeah, it seems to be a bigger really big problem to to keep on practices the do this practice doing magic and and still be accepted by Roma people uh that want to be in some kind of modern society. Like it it doesn't go some some of the people seem to think that you you can't combine this and maybe it's about this historical uh stigmatized uh stigmatization that's happened uh f from the state and from uh people around.

Reclaiming Witchhood And Pariah Femininity

SPEAKER_02 29:09

It makes a lot of sense. I think that I know that Paulina and I have been aware of um you know being left off of certain you know lists of Roma writers and other things because of the topic we're writing about. And at the same time, there are really fantastic performers and activists like um Juve Le Pen that make Romani magic central to our empowerment and our futurism, which I think it's really important. I don't know that it's helpful, and of course I'm speaking in a biased way because I was raised with these practices and I do it for a living, but I don't really think we can divorce ourselves from these practices and um these images. I think it's easier and healthier for us to try to contextualize them rather than erase them. About the study that you conducted?

SPEAKER_00 30:44

Well, what surprised me the most is that these practices are still alive. They are strong, and there are strong similarities across countries, which shows that this is a long and continuous tradition that has survived across generations and countries. That's really interesting to see because uh I could see a lot of um stories was really similar, and and the rituals and the practices that you describe in in the US, and when I compare it to the Swedish stories, I could see that these practices are just the same. And that's really interesting to see. But of what I found even more important is how these practices are being transformed. Uh, because there's a clear shift happening. It's not just about like younger generation, but about many Romani women today who are like actively reclaiming and redefining what these practices mean. So, one clear example is the reclaiming of the word witch. And historically, this word has been associated with something negative or evil or dangerous or demonic, and many Romani women have avoided it historically. But but now many are actively taking it back. For example, Salamanca Taikon, a Romani artist and performer, uh, she openly identifies with it, and you guys do it as well, and uh many others are doing the same. So, what is happening is recoding of the narrative. Something that was used to be stigmatized is being transformed into something empowering, empowering. So, and and this connects to what I described as a in the study I describe as a paria femininity. So Romani women have historically been associated with forms of femininity that are seen as like undesirable, like being you know, too strong, too visible, too sexual, too free. But in this study, these qualities are not rejected, they are kind of revalued, reclaimed, and transformed into something powerful. So through that, women create agency. So they reposition themselves within power structures, and magical practices play a central role in that process. They function as some kind of tool for navigating marginalization, building strength and you know, shaping identity. And this is also political. Many of the women like you are politically active and use these practices to engage with issues such as you know, Romani rights, women's rights, and LGBTQ rights and so on. So it seems to be uh a great tool for empowerment to use this magical ritual. Uh it's empowerment, it's empowering for women, Romani women. And I guess they always have been. I mean, historically, when when our my grandmother and so on had to struggle in life, we know that these practices, these rituals made her uh stronger and made her feel connected to uh earlier generations to her past and even with the women that she lived with around her in the community in the family, it made really strong bonds between women to be able to survive hard times, and and that's something that I can see in this study as well.

SPEAKER_03 35:04

Well, thank you so much for sharing that, and it really is empowering to Romani women, and it's a community and it's ancestral and it's magical. So thank you so much for sharing that and all this information and conducting this study and doing all that you have done. Um what do you have coming up on the horizon?

Magic For Everyone Beyond Gender

SPEAKER_00 35:28

Yeah, I just have to say something uh else between uh that's really important, and that's something new that I see. That's this is really new to me, that it's these practi these rituals, these magic practices is not. I mean the women in this study, they don't feel like this has to be a tradition just for women. And this is a new thing. Okay you see that these traditions, these rituals can can be done by anyone. So it doesn't have to be a woman's or so this is new and it's really interesting.

SPEAKER_02 36:13

I love that so much too, because gender is complicated and um you know not everyone identifies um with the gender spectrum at all. Um but yeah, I've definitely seen this with my trans friends who find that the magical rituals that they inherited from family or reclaimed have also been incredibly helpful as a tool for empowerment and understanding the world around them and creating safety and sense of belonging and also um for supporting them economically. And it's just really lovely to see that something that has been passed down among the marginalized in our communities still can be a greater tool for empowering um people who have been even more particularly marginalized within our own communities, and that it really is for everyone. Um, it's more about I think it from my perspective, it feels more like um these magical tools are meant to empower whoever needs to be empowered. Yes, definitely, yes.

SPEAKER_00 37:21

There is an economic aspect of it. You can you can see it from the like historically, you can see it from the 1400s, the 15s, 16s, and so on. You can see that uh in laws and so on that this has been a female incomes. That uh it has been uh I mean it was the women who who brought the money back home to the families, and it still is. And I know Paulina you talked about that and how important it is to have a way of uh uh you know uh what's the word to survive in and hard times, and that's what this uh like divination has done historically. So and and that made me think of another thing that's uh the the empowerment happens on several levels, like across the material, women describe these practices as deeply transformative, so they they help them to understand themselves, process difficult emotions, and develop inner strength. And through rituals, whatever it is palm reading or tarot or tea reading or you know, practice necromancy, uh, love rituals or whatever, they test their own limits, face difficult emotions, and gain a sense of control of their lives. So these practices are not just symbolic, they are experimental. So they create a confidence and self-knowledge and a sense of agency. Uh, and at the same time, not all practices are treated equally. For example, palm reading, tarot, and tea reading are more openly practiced. And some of them, like you said, Jasmina, you don't you keep for yourself because you know it's too dangerous to speak about them. They will make you more stigmatized. So you often keep them private. But regardless of which practice you are used, they are constantly, constantly described as strengthening. And second, they're also a social level as well. So there's a strong sense of community and also status connected to these practices, and that's very important because many women describe themselves as spiritual leaders. So within the Romani community, within the family, but also outside of it, it gives you status. So people can actively seek, you know, Romani women out for their guidance. And the work they do is often described as similar as like therapy. So people come to Romani women to talk about their lives, ref reflect on the reflect, uh, reflect and feel that they can better understand their situations and even influence their future. And I know you, you, Jasmine and Paulina, you think this is a very important uh work for you. So I guess these women are just not performing rituals, they are like guiding others, supporting others, and helping people to navigate their lives, and and that creates both authority and response responsibility. There's a symbolic and political level. And what I find especially important is that is how these practices are connected to what I describe as a para femininity. Uh maybe. Like Romani women have historically been associated with forms of femininity that are seen undesirable. But I thought I think I told you about that.

SPEAKER_02 41:13

I don't know if you said that yet.

Where To Find The Thesis

SPEAKER_00 41:15

Yeah, I don't think it's okay. So Romani women have historically been associated with forms of femininity that has been seen as undesirable, like being too visible, too strong, too sexual, too free. And the figure of the witch, we spoke about that. I don't think I have to say that again, but these are just perspective on why magical practices and rituals are so empowerment for women, uh Romani women. There are so many perspectives that shows that these rituals are important for the women in many different ways and it gains like status. Uh, and that's something that the women creates for themselves, and they have been doing that historically. So um I think we have to really um uh be aware of this culture, this these traditions that they have been more um important than the history what the history books have said before. So yeah, that's that's really important to me to to to show to to the rest of the world, kind of a this is so exciting.

SPEAKER_02 43:14

How can people read your thesis? Like, you know, when it's finally out and published? Like, what's the best way to engage with your work?

SPEAKER_00 43:24

Uh it's it's gonna be available, I think, uh next uh autumn, maybe. Yeah, but you can follow me on my Instagram, for example, uh, and I will uh I I share updates about my work there, so you can follow me if you want to.

SPEAKER_02 43:44

Yeah, what's your Instagram handle again?

SPEAKER_00 43:48

Uh it's Jeanette Cartou.

SPEAKER_02 43:50

Oh, perfect. Easy.

SPEAKER_00 43:53

Really easy.

SPEAKER_02 43:54

And we'll link it, yes, uh, we'll link to that in the bio too. Yes, thank you. Is there anything coming up that you can share that you want to tease for people other than the release of your thesis in the autumn?

SPEAKER_00 44:11

Well, uh I don't know if yeah, maybe it it might be a a TV show coming up as well. So we we will see about that.

SPEAKER_02 44:23

Stay tuned, everyone. Yes. Thank you so much for coming on the show and speaking with us. This was so fascinating, and we can't wait to see what else you come out with.

SPEAKER_03 44:35

Yeah, this is a super important topic, and I feel like it was really needed um in our community, for our audience, in our society, and I'm super grateful to be a part of this experience as well. So we appreciate you.

Romani Crush And Closing Support

SPEAKER_02 44:51

Oh, you know what? We forgot to ask um our favorite question, and it's okay if it's too on the spot, but we usually ask if you have a Romani crush or just like a Romani person you want to shout out and say, like, this person's great, everyone should know about them. Is there anyone you'd like to shout out?

SPEAKER_00 45:09

Yeah, I do have uh a favorite, and it's a flamenco dancer called Carmen Amaya.

SPEAKER_02 45:18

Yeah, she's incredible. I love watching her footwork, it's scary and excites me.

SPEAKER_00 45:24

She's so tiny, she's so small, but she's so strong. Yeah. And her feet are really fast. And I think she defines uh a Romani, a Romani person really, really, really well. She's really strong. She is.

SPEAKER_02 45:42

I'm so glad we remembered that question before we let you go.

SPEAKER_00 45:46

So thank you so much for having me. Oh my gosh, thank you.

SPEAKER_03 45:50

Thank you. Okay, thank you.

SPEAKER_02 46:17

To support us, join our Patreon for extra content or just donate to our coffee fundraiser, ko-fi.com backslash romanasan. And please rate, review, and subscribe. It helps people find our show. It helps us so much.

SPEAKER_03 46:34

You can follow Jez on Instagram at jezmina.vontila and Paulina at romaniholistic. You can get our book, Secrets of Romani Fortune Telling, online or wherever books are sold. Visit romanistempodcast.com for events, educational resources, and more. Email us at romanistempodcast at gmail.com for inquiries.

SPEAKER_02 46:59

Romanistan is hosted by Jasmina Vontila and Paulina Stevens, conceived of by Paulina Stevens, edited by Victor Patchitz, with music by Victor Pachitz, and artwork by Elijah Bardo.