Ep. 008: The Rational Struggle with Gender Dysphoria

It is painful for one's emotional life to be in conflict with one's biological nature. How does a rational human being confront such a problem? Join us tonight when Bosch Fawstin and Andrew Bernstein interview David Birnbaum, a young man honestly struggling with this problem.

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hey everybody everybody out there in the free speech land welcome back to truth in politics with your hosts andrew bernstein and bosh fosten uh i'm andrew bernstein bosh how you doing tonight very good how are you i'm good thank you and we have a special guest tonight david bernbaum uh from from the iron rand institute how are you tonight david good i'll say i'm not from the iron run institute i shouldn't be associated in any formal way with them i'm uh i'm a new a student of objectivism okay well thank you for that correction uh and and we are here to discuss the topic of gender dysphoria and what and the kind of experiences that somebody has both emotionally socially and of course dealing with the reality of the of the biology here and it must be uh it must be a painful experience so um you know i want to applaud you david for having the courage to come on you know and speak out publicly about it yeah yeah yeah you're welcome so the first first question of course is i would ask you to ex explain your own experience your your own feelings and that is is there a clash between your emotional life and and your biological reality yeah there so i mean i i wouldn't define it in those terms like the clash isn't between the biological reality like i don't experience that but there's a it's experienced as like there's a total clash in my mind right now that i'm working to reconcile between sort of my let simply put my left brain and my right brain like in in sort of colloquial terms like there is a clash between my view of reality and my view of my own emotional experience and it's extremely difficult to deal with and and carry basically and you know in the past it used to more so be i'd sort of be more focused on one or the other and more recently and especially since i've sort of explicitly come to this realization i'm more often in both states at the same time and so right now i'm i'm basically living in a perpetual clash and it's it's very difficult um and so it's like you know i have the same view of uh as many people about like you know trans is very weird me dressing like a woman is very weird and i see myself doing these things and there's a total clash in my mind between what i think should be and what i want to do and then like it's about understanding how to reconcile those and which way to do it and uh if you don't mind uh if you could tell us when this began when you became conscious of it when you were dealing with it and i guess we'll go from there yeah so the the very first time i had some awareness of it was january 2018. um i didn't know why but at the time it was the first time i started hearing about like sort of the gender debate the gender dialogue and i became like pretty interested in it but i didn't know why i interviewed someone on my show i was the first like interview i ever did who identified as non-binary and you know just talking about the concept and the idea and their experience and i remember getting like vividly and uncomfortable during that conversation because it didn't quite make sense right it wasn't a coherent narrative it wasn't fully rational to me but i had like a massive like this is super relatable to me and it made me so uncomfortable and so at that time i was really grasping at how to understand it um but i sort of came out as non-binary at the time right because i was like okay i know i'm i'm not a typical man and i know i have issues around this sort of thing there was a lot of other sort of uh mental health turmoil i was going through as well so this was an explanation that helped but i was also cognizant of that right okay i don't i can't just claim this is the issue right because you know i was being told masculinity is bad femininity is good and these sorts of things so i didn't want to you know throw all the eggs into that basket that that sort of developed from january 2018 through to about march or april 2019 and i started to view myself like just when i would think about myself when i would introspect when i would be alone i start to think of myself very femininely um and i and it made me more comfortable it made me less anxious and these sorts of things um and then and and i started to sort of associate with the label of lesbian because i'm sexually attracted to women and i'm still sexually attracted to women and so that's sort of a label that made sense to me but it was super confusing because but you know right right because so that was super confusing and then there was basically a gap because i had a lot of other stuff that happened from april 2019 through for about the next year and a half and i basically got distracted from that issue as a whole so i discovered objectivism and i spent a lot of mental effort understanding that right um and really trying to integrate my mind and and and be like a better thinker and understand things more clearly and then i also was dealing with sort of uh understanding exactly the root of other psychological problems i was having um and then once those sort of got clarified and solidified it was like oh the gender issue can come back to the surface and so i had a conversation actually it was always there and there were moments throughout that time the only moments i felt really calm were moments i felt reconnected with like my feminine self and then i had a conversation with an objectivist um about like the trans epistemology basically how do you think about this and it was sort of clarifying and then it opened sort of the floodgates for me because i was really i wasn't going to let myself accept something if i thought it wasn't like rational um but this this person i spoke with it it made some sense to me and then that is what sort of triggered i had like a two week uh sort of vacation and i had a lot of introspection going on and that's when i sort of was revisiting this issue really vividly and that's when i realized uh that i'm trans was just in december 2020 so very recently and it was like uh like a massive integration moment for me um and then i've been sort of dealing with that since and it's been just uh it's hard to describe how difficult it has been um but that's sort of the story and and so it's been a lot of you know understanding and uh work since december so let me ask you a stupid question david so part of your emotional life you you would prefer to be a woman is that yeah like um i have no emotional connection to anything masculine like i can do masculine things like traditionally masculine things and like i've done that for a large part of my life but there's no it doesn't make me it's totally neutral at best like it just doesn't matter to me whereas the things that i associate with femininity and when i view myself in a feminine lens that's when i feel comfortable that's what gives me happiness and joy you're consciously you're aware of it you know exactly what that means what doesn't mean or you're still trying trying to figure it out i'm pretty aware of it now right and that's what's really interesting is you know i don't want to get too into the weeds of of you know what i think is going on because i still want to like you know do research and work work with experts to understand like because i'm very interested in psychology personally um but to me it's very clear like i know when i'm in a better mood and not in a better mood and what are the triggers and it's even just from observing my own conduct i can see a clear correlation at least of when i'm in a better mood what activities i'm doing how i'm feeling about myself but then there's also like a clear introspective evidence of it as well i'm sorry andrew could you just bring up concrete examples do you have any examples per se like in terms of the feminine things that you do and things that you clearly don't want to do in terms of the you know in terms of male and female things yes i mean so the the clearest and most obvious and i don't want to imply that this is like definitive but it's like clothing i wear right so i feel much more comfortable and happy when i'm in female clothing i also when i'm more comfortable i want to wear female clothing right i mean so it goes it goes both ways in that sense um you know one thing and i'm just you know this is just what's coming top of mind one thing i'm struggling with right now is actually fitness and working out because i'd only ever worked out in a very masculine way trying to attract women and like and it's had that association and now i need to understand how i can get myself to be motivated and and remove the masculine uh connotations of the type of fitness i do right and so it's clear that some stuff is just my projection of like okay i'm viewing it this way but it's not necessarily but not everything is the essence of where it's most important though is in my relationship with my own body right so when i'm seeking you know sexual satisfaction how do i how can i achieve that how what is the way i have to conceptualize myself i want to be conceptualized by a partner in order to achieve that success um because a lot of the other stuff it people can counter argue right if i say oh well i like being loving and compassionate and in that in my mind that's feminine well people can counter argue that well no but it can be masculine right but the issue is sort of the this the packaging of it in my mind um and so i can give a couple of other examples if if you want but that's sort of what comes to mind uh easiest i appreciate it thanks yeah so um david let me ask you a philosophical question um because you're an objectivist and um very new though so uh hopefully i can answer it uh no i think no i think you can um you know the one the basic principle of iran's metaphysics of you know a view of reality is the primacy of existence right existence is is what it is and it it's not susceptible to anybody's desires you know or wishes uh whereas the the leftists on the on the transgender issue i mean they'll they'll say things like you could be any gender you want to be you know that reality is malleable the reality is negotiable you know so as an objective as you you would recognize that biologically you're you're you're male and that's that can't be wished away um so so your recognition of reality and you know you have an irrational philosophy how does that how does that play into this uh you know and the the leftists are pushing a delusional philosophy on people like i can imagine if somebody's suffering from gender dysphoria and the leftists tell them to basically ignore reality that that's got to be that's got to be pernicious that's got to be harmful to to to the person so your your your apprehension of reality does is is it helpful in in dealing with this rather than the delusional world that the push push on transgender uh individuals i would say a hundred percent right and and the the value of objectivism and in terms of me accepting this uh and being able to accept it has been huge because i know the purpose of my life is my happiness right um but in terms of the like reality of it what you said about sort of the mainstream narrative is very true and that's one of the reasons i care to speak about this most is when i was first exposed to like this idea and i identified with it it was total chaos there was no logical guidance and my mind was just running through loops how do i there was no place to ground any of it in terms of trying to think about this properly and it's really damaging right and and we can get into sort of how damaging it is because of the like they're telling you that your mind is against reality society is against you too and so it's like well how do you escape then and and you know there are we can talk about how people choose to escape when they think society and reality are each against them there's not that many options unfortunately right and it's super super damaging and and it's it's really important to me to counter that narrative right in terms of uh you know my process yes i understand i'm a biological man right and if i didn't have that understanding i don't even know where i would start to understand anything else right um and i think the what's interesting um and i've started to encounter on tick tock actually some other trans people who clearly have this distinction as well they try and distinguish like the gender narrative from like the trans narrative because gender and there's gender fluidity and everyone's whatever they want gender is not real all of that stuff doesn't actually make sense if you're then claiming someone can actually be transgender right um so so i think that's that's a really important point and for me i have to like it's the only thing that's kept me uh satisfied let's say in my life because the narrative is telling me i was born in the wrong body or like somehow my mind is wrong for my body or things like this and it's like that's not even possible my mind couldn't exist in another body it wouldn't be possible for my existence to exist in another body i am me right and so that's such an important thing to understand and i think the other thing that's been really important for me to understand in this regard is trying to tell myself i am a woman or something like that i i don't see how i could think that and be happy it didn't integrate in my mind it wouldn't sit until i understood no i'm a trans person that is what actually made sense to me and what integrated but pushing this narrative of no i am a woman or i am a real woman and totally dropping the context like i don't think i i'd be hard-pressed to understand how someone could hold that and be properly integrated and fully satisfied i'm happy to talk to people who claim that that's their state but i i find that it would be hard for me to comprehend how have your friends and family respond to this and you know i think it's three years ago 2018 up until now and i'm just curious how how you dealt with it and what the situation is uh so basically from 2018 through to recently until december 2020 everyone no one talked to me about it they didn't really engage so i i came out publicly multiple times like i posted an essay saying i'm non-binary i posted poetry saying like talking about like the woman in me and no one took it seriously and no one and i definitely didn't get any like great mock you did they mock you did they immediately when you said you know what no one took it seriously when i first started discussing it a few friends i told about it didn't take it seriously like because i was sort of thinking out loud about it at the time in 2018 and they just dismissed it like you know people don't think about it this way people don't think through it this way right um so that was really painful those were like the first people i told about it um but they it was just ignorance it wasn't malice right um and then everyone else sort of dismissed it and i definitely didn't get any like credit from the lgbtq community right i wasn't because i was like you know if i don't ch if i say i'm this but i don't change how i'm because i had no i never cared about how i looked i never cared about appearance i was very disconnected from my myself in that way so it's like okay i know like i associate with this in some manner but it didn't change my engagement with the world at that point um and so i was i was not given any sort of no one viewed it as a valid thing um since i've like more definitively come to understand okay it is my experience this is the situation um most people have been very receptive to it um like i'm i actually like i lost many more friends because i support ayn rand than i do like i've been through the i've been through the flyers so to speak with my friends and family and i've had other reasons why they've like you know been through difficult times with me um so i'm very lucky most people have been quite supportive and i've actually been surprised at how supportive the objectivist community has been and the people i've talked to hear about it um but the most difficult thing has been people don't think they can empathize with me because they've been told they can't so the mainstream narrative says you don't know my experience like i'm this is so different so difficult of a thing that you can't even imagine it and so my my friends and family don't even try because they think it's offensive if they misstep so that's what's been the hardest part is they're they've been trained to think that they can't relate to me at all and i've had to sort of help them understand how to be supportive to me which has been quite difficult right to sort of carry that um as i'm carrying my own stuff um but i'm lucky that you know i've not had anyone like reject me outright because of this or anything like that you know that's yeah that's interesting david because that's the post-modernist philosophy that's been taken up by by modern leftists that is each group has its own grasp of reality there's male reality there's female reality on the on black reality white reality and so forth so you know on on that view your experience you know bash and i as you know heterosexual males if we took that seriously we couldn't possibly have any you know uh intimate conversations with you we couldn't empathize with you and like you said there's a there's a there's a technical term for for that view it's called because i know that's pretty technical but um we're human beings you know and we can empathize with humanity if we're honest all you have to do is be honest we can empathize with with somebody's experience you know and then you know if if it's suffering there's different kinds of suffering if it's persecution well there's different kinds of persecution but yeah we've suffered we've been persecuted at times one thing or another we've been alienated at times one thing or not we could certainly empathize reach out to our brothers and sisters and you know we and we can empathize because we're rational beings now i said i wanted to um go back to reality here i like reality it's my friend but um that's why why leftists are my favorite whipping boy because they've made in my judge even more radical departure with reality than even the religionists have i think they're living in a marxist delusional world where you know the religion is living in a christian or you know jewish or muslim delusional world but i think was it sean adams who said you know facts are stubborn things you know and i don't remember the rest of the quote but they're hard to get rid of so i'm trying to you know imagine as an empathic human being if if i was you know suffering from gender dysphoria and convinced myself you know on the leftist narrative well i'm really a woman because i feel that way i you know the fact of my masculinity is not so easily you know dispense with you know i you know it's getting the showers oh oh i got penis you know i got a certain certain muscle structure i have hair growing all over my chest reality is not that easy to dispense with and if somebody takes that transgender you know leftist narrative seriously i could be any gender i want to be and they actually try to put it into practice i would think you know that's so irrational i would think that have to have serious mental health consequences for somebody who will try to live that out because they're really at war with reality it's not just their emotions that are clashing with their biological reality they're crediting their emotions and they're dismissing biological reality now it's their mind they're trying to put in war with reality that's got to have harmful consequences right what do you what do you have any thought have your thoughts on that damon yeah so this is sort of the essence of the issue and and you know it really hits home it's difficult for me to like even the way you describe it that's the current thought process i'm dealing with and it's very difficult to deal with because i do see my body and i recognize it as a masculine body i have male genitalia and so it is my emotions are at odds with the you know the fact of my body but like with the exception of the the literal genitalia right everything else is sort of there are women who have a very masculine build and there are men who have a very feminine build so none of that really matters that much and and you know you can i'm i'm happy to hear it if you disagree but that's the way i'm dealing that's the way i think of it right now and but it is a very big struggle right because i want to be feminine and yet i'm not as feminine as i would like so how do i how do i like manifest my appearance in a way that makes me feel good and how do i conceptualize myself in a way that makes me feel good and how do i do that while not departing from reality because i agree like i'm at the point where my weighing i think it's more psychologically healthy in my judgment to accept that i'm trans and lean towards that then to try and do i don't even know if it would be possible but to try and do the work to convince my emotions because i think it's really deep right like i i i've basically reset my entire um value hierarchy in my adult life and this feels like it's not doable to do to access these parts right they really feel like they must have been set at a very very young age um and so the effort i think it would take to change them i don't see why i would want to right so and i don't see why it would be necessary so if i can view myself as a feminine person if i can work towards presenting myself and changing my body to the degree that i think it's rational to do so that i can enjoy my life more why would that be irrational if i'm not departing from reality if i'm recognizing the context but i can in my body knowing i'm a biological male change things to the degree that i can enjoy my body fully and live my life as happily as possible but that is the the internal struggle is what is the balance what is too far and what is acceptable uh for me to like let into my mind right um but like i don't think it's the case when i look at myself now so i have shaved my body hair and i like the way it looks it makes me feel better and i associate that with being feminine some men shave their body and and they like it and you know they want to be a a male bathing suit model or whatever it is but like when i look at myself i i associate femininity with it and i like that and i don't see why that's a problem or why that's departing from reality yeah i mean it's it's none of my business david of anybody's really but sex change operation is that is that you think uh something that you would consider so my current thinking on it is i wouldn't do a bottom surgery because i don't think the state of the science and the surgery is at a point where i would be satisfied with the results so to speak like i honestly think if i could snap my fingers and magically get female genitalia that were proper and functioning i do think that would help me enjoy my life more that's not possible right that is not the current context and i have to understand that and appreciate that i am cons i i'm you know i am open in theory to top surgery you know breast implants are very common surgery and there's not danger in that um but i think that is a more complex uh conversation for me to have with myself because of how that would impact the rest of my life the rest of my values right how do i want to exist in the world if i have professional goals will it detriment and these sorts of things and i'm not yet at a stage of actually needing to make that decision but that's the way i currently view it um you know i i said that on i was on the iran center uk daily objective and someone commented saying they think i have a wrong view about bottom surgery but you know the way i think about it is if i was born 100 years ago bottom surgery wouldn't be possible and i would still have to find a way to live a happy life right so just because it's available doesn't mean it i have to do it to live a happy life i have to understand the full context um and so that's sort of my current thinking about it and so it's more so i'm trying to understand how do i learn to be fully satisfied in the body i have right would you be interested in writing about this in terms of because in the culture that we're in the left has owned this issue they've they try to celebrate it it's something that people must celebrate we must celebrate it we must love it but have you thought about you know writing writing your thoughts down in in book form to you know to deal with it yourself and then also maybe help others who want a different path than the left is offering yeah 100 i would like to i i mean i have a few different like tangential issues that i want to cover in book form i i struggle to write eloquently um i'm much more well spoken so if i could speak and transcribe it that's sort of the style but i did recently record about 12 to 15 hours of content i hired a professional film crew to uh one create a documentary that's more so like my personal journey much more in depth and then two it's about a series of 15 or 20 videos that address basically every mainstream narrative from my perspective and i wanna basically it's like reframing the gender narrative or the truth about gender and i so i do want to get this information out um i'm just working to understand the best method mechanism the best method to do that but it's it's extremely important to me um and so i'm just working on figuring out how to do that and so that's what i'm starting with you know coming on some guest appearances and stuff as well well that's very courageous on your part i think you know and i you know i certainly i certainly salute you for that david thank you oh yeah you're welcome uh and thank you for coming on uh because this is obviously uh an important and intriguing and gotta be painful issue but i'm thinking what you know why you were speaking so when i was in college many years ago as a friend of mine and i don't remember what i what i said to annoy her but you know she she said to me you know what are you an insensitive i can still hear i can still hear her say that so if i so if i were incentive or there was some knucklehead and they asked you yes well look david you're you're you're a man why don't you just accept it uh i can i can imagine uh well well i don't i guess i won't even i won't try what would you what would your response be to to some stupid some stupid comment like that or some stupid question so my first response would be well what is a man in their view right so that's a very interesting question what is the essence of masculinity in their view and most people have no response at all they've not thought about the issue in depth and i would then respond okay no my body is masculine my mind tells me that it wishes i was a woman right and so i have to understand the full context of my life and decide rationally what i based on all of the knowledge i know about anatomy physiology psychology what is the best path forward what is an acceptable and appropriate path for it so yes i do accept the fact that i'm i was born a man that i am a man right but that's a very pain even as i just say that it pains me it literally pains me and i have i have experiences in my life that are painful because of the fact that i'm a man so would they say that i have to accept it even if it causes me daily pain like i know i have to accept the biological reality but if they're telling me i have to accept some conceptual view of my own masculinity in order to do what for what reason so then it becomes okay what is the purpose of my life right and that's what i said like the purpose of my life is my happiness as long as i'm not departing or rejecting any facts of reality i can pursue my positive purpose in life and that's where the field of psychology becomes very important okay based on the current understanding of the mind of gender dysphoria and of these things what is the best path forward for me to achieve my happiness right and so that's what i would say to them is is like gender dysphoria is not a new phenomenon it's i mean it's it's only popularized and sexy in the past five years or so right but the same way like if i said oh i have adhd and they're like like well so it's not quite the same but i do view gender dysphoria in through a psychological lens right so i i sidetracked the adhd it's not a proper uh objective okay that would be my response is um like what do they mean what do you mean by i am a man accepted right we got to a definition then we could discuss the specifics of what they mean by that but if what they mean is i have a penis yes i do i accept that and and you know i have to deal with that but if they mean anything more than that then it's a much more interesting conversation and then we also get into you know that's what then muddies the water with the whole narrative that's going on now about what is gender gender's this and it's nothing and it's everything right and that's really interesting um to then talk about right so just go ahead yeah someone mentioned uh something here in terms of the uh the female sports and biological men entering those sports and the bathroom issue any thoughts on that just curious so with the sports issue um like i think i think currently um like for a biological man to compete in female sports is absurd right like i think it's totally unfair and and i also think if if the lgbtq community as a whole if we can group them into like the activists if they actually wanted to one empower women or to empower trans people they would encourage people who are born men and identify as women to compete in male sports because how powerful how empowering to see a woman beat men right oh how magical would that be to see a woman wrestle and win against a man no but they're they're taking themselves out of the male athletics and going into female athletics um there there was someone who put forward recently there's someone i follow on tick tock who's a a so they were born female and they've transitioned to male they compete in male sports they think that's acceptable and you know i think there's a clear difference between someone who's a biological male competing against women and a biological female competing against men that is a clear distinction but you don't hear the other one in the in the narrative um and i think i think there's a real discussion uh to be had around risk right but with respect to the sports and the bathroom issue my response is like this should people should have private businesses and each business and each person can decide for themselves if someone wants to open an athletics association that lets men and trans women and everyone compete against each other they can do that and if people want to compete in that they can right it's up to each person but i think there should definitely be and i see reason to have many areas where there are female biological female only sports and that's the same with bathroom the bathroom issue right i don't know what the best answer would be for my business right when i go out like to uh hipster bars it's they have unisex bathrooms anyways or individual bathrooms so it's not an issue for like 25 year olds who are just trying to have a good night so to speak right but it's up to each business some businesses uh would want you know trans people to feel comfortable some businesses uh want all of the biological females to feel comfortable or whatever it is and and i think it's up to each of them and people can that's how society has the proper discussion about it anyways is okay why do people choose to go to one business versus another if this is such an important issue to them um but i really like i don't think it should be legislated one way or the other right i think people should decide and i don't have the right answer but like it's a really good question if you think of again a lot of the narrative is often men who transitioned to women whereas i've recently come across quite a few women who've transitioned to men and they like they're very masculine looking and they're like do you really want me in the women's bathroom right because there's the idea okay if a man transitions towards we don't want them in the women's bathroom right but what about people who look extremely masculine and are then in the women's bathroom right so it's an interesting issue but i think people should run their businesses have their own bathrooms and go from there i'm sorry andrew just just one thing an observation in terms of um men uh going to women and women becoming men you know technically i mean there is more of an embrace of the men becoming women than there is clearly of the women becoming men is that just a gender issue in terms of you know masculinity's evil therefore we don't give a damn for women who actually betray the sex and go become men i mean they're becoming a part of the patriarchy is that is that some of it to you so i've i've only started thinking about this recently as i've been exposed to a couple of like people who've transitioned from female to male but there's two things that come to mind that they've highlighted so they they first of all they reject the lgbtq community as such they don't feel accepted and these sorts of things but one they say like the if you if you play by the stereotype of masculine versus feminine the the feminine is more emotional the masculine is more logical and they think that their approach is more logical to these issues this is what they've said in their days right um and i think that's a big thing and also one thing that was really interesting is when ellen uh what was her name a famous ellen just ellen page uh elliott page elliott paige um or or came out as elliot page there was a narrative of like what a loss for lesbians another lesbian lost right so it's it's i don't know exactly what it is but it's somehow my mind makes a connection with the turfs trans-exclusionary radical feminists right so if you think like so maybe it's something to do with the hierarchy of oppression or whatever depression olympics i don't quite know why this phenomenon is happening but it is very clear to me right the advocates you see are are men who've transitioned to women the ones that are men who've transitioned to women and they're celebrated yeah right and ellen page will be celebrated because she's a movie star that's that's probably the only reason why because she's a famous person to begin with but i've not heard much from her since she shoots us on the cover of wonder magazines i guess she i think she had the operation i think i think she actually you know went further anyway sorry no no going back to the sports question david if there's a it occurred to me if there's enough transgender uh men they can compete against each other but um my um my favorite politician in the country today christie noem your republican governor of south dakota who i'm hoping is our next president uh because she she's like the most i think the most rational and the most freedom loving and rights respecting politician in the republican party and vastly better than any other leftists who infest the democratic uh party in fact the new york times did a hit piece on her recently and you got you you realize that the new york times does a hit piece on some republican you know they must be doing something they must be doing something something right anyway i saw she she has a piece of legislation in this south dakota that no biological males are going to play in female sports and you know in the high schools you know in the you know in the in the state schools and everything i applaud that go your way to go you know uh governor noem i think she's i think she's your very rights respecting and it's yeah it's just that is to me anyway it's typical leftist insanity we push aside reality we push aside the biological differences between male and female and the injustices that will occur if you're gonna have some you know you have a bunch of girls let's say in high school the basketball team and they're really good they've worked hard and they're really good athletes and they're terrific basketball players and you have five four five five you know so how you put this guy against on the other team who's six foot or six two you know or whatever it's not just the height you know but the the reach the the size and the strength advantage of your rebounding under under the basket it's just not to mention the difference in muscle structure how you know some girl could get hurt i mean you can always get her playing sports but when somebody's so much bigger and stronger than you and it's just it's just insane you know and and here's where i have a lot of respect for you david because you you are you know recognizing reality they're they're bio biology is not to be dismissed there is a biological nature males are males females are females there's we we can't change our gender just by wishing it and it's it's unjust to have you have have to have your girls compete against boys who are so much bigger and and stronger than they are and you know what you said before resonated with me because it's um maybe the most difficult thing to do is to accept a painful truth and you know it's painful to you that you're a biological male but but you accept it and once you accept reality then you could decide on a rational plan as i could see in my own life i've had you know like i said before we all have some kind of things that trouble us or we we suffer from uh i could see looking back in my life the times when i've been i know i've been very uh mistreated the woman in my life i didn't treat her the way she deserved to be treated that's painful truth i'd have to accept it you know where there are times when i have not been as good a dad to my daughter as i could be should be and that's a painful truth and i have to accept it but there's the thing about reality if no even if it's the truth is painful if you accept it now you could have now you could develop a rational plan on on how to deal with it was if i deny it then you know i can't ameliorate the situation right i can't improve it so you know i i i'm it i like it i like even though i can see you're in pain the fact that you that you you have the guts to face a painful truth accept that it's true and then move on from there with a rational plan on to try to develop a rational plan on how to how uh generate the most happiness in your life that you possibly can and there i would i would ex i would suspect objectivism is a big advantage because because you know that happiness is your proper you know is your proper uh state in life and that you have every right to pursue it so i would think that i would think that would be a big advantage for you yeah and so there's a couple of things i want to jump back to on on the sports issue briefly i just want to say like i i don't know about the legislation in in particular but um you know it's possible that like i said i think you know sports associate associations should be able to have whatever rules they they think are are appropriate and if people have the opportunity to be a part of them or not personally i i wouldn't have um i wouldn't have biological males competing against females and there was for example some i think ufc fighter a biological male who like fractured the skull of a female and like oh what a great champion uh right it's it's kind of off the walls a little bit um with respect to it's viciously insane it has has the leftist fingerprints all over it it's misogynistic also that's what that's what jason hill if you saw the show he had dr jason hill on david he said part of the goal here is males who want to crush females isn't that what he said no there's no scene i think some of the motive for some of these individuals is i mean it really has to be there's brutal and what comes to mind with sort of like why another connection that you know it's interesting about the oppression olympics right the anti-racism and all this stuff how it totally undercuts the very what they claim to be pursuing right so oh we're gonna remove all black uh you know um icons from um you know whatever grocery store items right which is the current thing because somehow that advances the issue and so there's this similar thing there's almost like this pushing we we want to empower people we want to empower women including trans women so we're going to make it so so no biological women can ever win a female sport again right like it's it's it's another example of how they they totally go against their own uh alleged purpose yeah and enhances the chances that she's going to get seriously hurt like that that ufc fighter that you you're talking about going against somebody who's so much bigger and stronger and and then in respect to like yeah accepting the reality and then and then understanding how to move forward right like it is supremely painful right like it is hard for me to explain to the average person how painful it is to accept the fact that i wish i were a woman very very deep down but except that i'm not right but it is it is super difficult and and it's not just difficult because of the current state i'm in but it's difficult because like i had a very unhappy life and it's looking back like if only i had known this sooner or if only i had been born a girl there's so many associations with all of the issues i had like they are related to the fact that i wasn't able to understand and conceptualize this differently or or fully understand what was going on but i have to accept all of that context properly and fully before i'm able to move forward and actually understand what i should do and so like objectivism has been hugely beneficial in terms of understanding how to think about this all properly but also in terms of again yes knowing that my happiness is my purpose in life and so i don't have to worry about oh is this against god or against the church or against my family i don't care about any of that rightfully so and so that's been really valuable and the other thing is it's helped me make progress towards acceptance more quickly because like some people will say oh it's stupid for me to want to paint my nails or wear tights or whatever it is but if i have a desire if i have an emotional desire and i can't think of a single rational reason a first-handed rational reason why i shouldn't do it why wouldn't i right is there really an issue with me painting my nails or wearing leggings i can't think of one so even though there's fear even though i know other people might judge me i cannot for the life of me come up with my own first-handed rational reason not to do something that i want to do it's to say if i wanted to play basketball would i worry about all of these things no i just have an urge a desire to play basketball and that's the way i view some of these things obviously they're more complex but that clarity of thinking has really helped me move forward in self-acceptance has discussing this issue openly on these shows has it helped you come more to terms of it and brought you a little more peace i mean has it has it made you understand the issue to yourself maybe a little more where you're discussing it openly has that helped you it definitely does help and in particular like i did a two-day marathon shoot talking about all of these issues and also dressing very femininely for the shoot and that really helped and it sort of was coming to a head um but also because we i mentioned earlier sort of this consistent struggle in my mind right now about you know not being happy with the fact that i'm trans right like it's not part of my mind wants to reject it and it's still i'm working on understanding that but putting myself out there is like a signal to myself that i am supportive of myself and so that would be helpful as well like i have thought about it thoroughly i'm at a point where i'm comfortable to discuss it um and so that is me indicating to myself a level of acceptance but on the flip side it's also added difficulty because now that i'm putting myself out there as an advocate of some sort it's like oh how do i make sure i'm trans in the right way right because that's a big issue a big fear of mine is being rejected and vilified by the trans community right um the one of the trans men so female to male that i follow on tick tock they said that they've been labeled a transphobe for their views that are more reflective of mine right and so um like i've been really concerned in the past couple of weeks with am i being trans correctly to be an advocate what if i change one of my views is that acceptable and so it's been really difficult and i'm working on just remembering no i have to be myself first and foremost and then this is a bucket that i think i fit into but not really i not have my identity tied to the label so it's been good in terms of demonstrating my self-acceptance and i i'm someone who wants to think things through i want to be rational i want to be objective so talking is about it and getting pushback is really valuable but it's there's a difficulty with it as well around what is the image i'm putting out there how do i want to represent myself i understand you know david bosh everybody out there in uh free speech you know i can't tell anybody to uh to like us and and sign up for us on youtube anymore since we got the platform platform that youtube yeah right yeah recovering in severe violations of that community uh whatever it was at community standards but uh on rumble right you could you know subscribe to us on on rumble but um you know our good friend david and bosh um rozzie ginsburg who does a great job running the iron ranch center uk and i know you've been on some of the some of their shows well razzie described me as a quote right-wing extremist and so you know i'm going to proudly embrace that publicly here and i want to define it before your lead is going to lead me into a question here but right-wing by right-wing i mean you're supporting individualism and capitalism and by left-wing you know i mean supporting collectivism and socialism and by extremists i mean i mean somebody who's logically consistent you know there's no there's no flaws in in my thinking that i'll carry out to the logical conclusion my support of individual rights and capitalism and i you know if extremism means any any your support of violence or the initiation of force and obviously i repudiate that because as a good objectivist i loathe the initiation of force and believe only in the retaliatory use against those who initiate so as a right-wing extremist i'm gonna i'm gonna ask you uh when you deal with leftists and and you and you have come with the view that there's biological reality and there's not this fluid uh gender uh issue where you could be any gender you want to be or anything there's you know that i am biologically male and do you get a lot of do you get a lot of pushback from leftists because in my experience they tend to be irrational and just mean-spirited do they they abuse verbally abuse you for embracing biological reality or accepting it so i've not yet engaged with them much on this issue like a lot of people have asked me why don't i reach out to other people in the lgbtq community why don't i try and get support in this way and i was like from my experience i don't expect them to be supportive of my views right um my i come from a pretty left-wing background like i was a pretty left-wing socialist canadian right like proudly socialist canadian that's what makes me a good person so a lot of my peers are in that group and just with other issues uh with mental health issues with um uh with with most things when i sort of have a a more rational and uh wright's uh affirming view they i get totally vilified as as evil right and i've had to have difficult conversations with some family members about you know the the according to the the media according to the narrative that they hear i'm evil yet they know i'm not so how do they reconcile this in their mind and some people are willing to do that some people don't care or some people throw me out because i'm i'm a jerk and so um i already went through that because i support iron rand right and so like i've not had to do much of that since i started talking about this publicly um i'm sure once i go more public and i actually get any attention around it i will i've started to post about about it a bit on tik tok and i have gotten hate for that um like from random people and like they're totally denying my experience because of i don't agree with the mainstream narrative and this is the same thing that i've heard echoed from a few other trans people on tiktok um is that total rejection of their view and their experience and you know i also like someone said they hope i get accepted by conservatives as the one true trans as if like oh my view of it is like i like yeah i don't know so i've not yet had to deal with a lot of it for this issue but like there was a real fear about talking about it not from like obviously there are people who are transphobic i don't think it's like the majority of society right like but there was more fear of the rejection from the alleged people that should be supportive and i definitely think i will be vilified as transphobic oh i have no doubt i know what leftists tend to be like you know what it reminds me of david you know if basha and i know if bosh and i speak out against you know uh the socialist programs and everything the left will just vilify us as racists you know big deal but if black conservatives speak out against you know the socialism you know candace owens or larry elder or you're the great economist thomas soul the late great walter williams oh my god the names they get called by left i won't even repeat it on the air it's it it's so vile because they're considered apostates you know you're supposed to be a leftist you know uh and so yeah i'm afraid you're i'm afraid you're gonna have to deal with the same if you tell them you know you you respect iran you accept reality reality is what it is primacy of existence a is a it doesn't change simply because we we wish it to we don't place the i wish above them before the year it is i think you're gonna get a lot of abuse my friend from from but but bob bosh and i are here to support you right now well i i appreciate that and yeah i definitely think that will be the case and and you know one thing i think is really interesting in that regard is this issue is more difficult i think for transgender people versus the black community or the the gay community because you know yeah they can say candace owens is a traitor to her race or isn't really black but like clearly she is black right and and there's more explicit evidence of homosexuality in the world okay he's married to a man we can't really say he's not gay because he's a conservative right but they're still trying but they're but they still strive as well yeah they still try but like the the average uh objective observer can see it's wrong but who is providing a narrative for trans people to understand that they're trans and disagree with the left-wing narrative it's very difficult to do right a black person to understand their black can look at their skin right and okay they're telling me i'm not black but i definitely am but if i'm trying to understand a very difficult psychological phenomenon in my own mind and i'm being told because of my views i'm disqualified from having that experience how do i know that that's wrong right it's a very difficult thing to understand and so it would be hard to be someone who definitively says they're trans but then his label does not trans by the trans movement because who else is there to say no you know what you actually are trans even though you disagree with you know the loudest proponents of um or the people talking most loudly about the experience and so it's a very different thing um because it's like it's it's totally about an internal relationship there's nothing to look at and definitively say oh yeah i'm clearly that even though they're telling me i'm not well they also david you uh i see that you are you paint your nails are there any other things that you're going to add to that in terms of and also your everyday life when you go out going about your your things do you get any kind of pushback you get any kind of looks you get any kind of insults i mean do you do do you do you get this on your everyday life so i've not gotten any explicit insults yet i'm i'm i'm definitely hesitant in going out publicly in certain ways like i dress more femininely at home than i do when i go out and that's another sort of it feels like i'm betraying myself almost that i'm not willing authentic in public yet but it's a very difficult thing and i'm still like like learning to accept it um but um i i like i'm an anxious person generally and the anxiety has gotten quite severe because i'm always wondering if people and but i've also been acclimatized to that that is for everyone that everyone is on the lookout and these sorts of things so like today at the restaurant i was at i have painted nails i was wearing a pink hat and i noticed a couple of times a couple people i was in like a side room and a couple people noticed me and peeked in and then like had a reaction i don't know if that's related to how like my pink hat and my painted nails or not i have no idea but i'm noticing this yes i have some like anxiety issues generally but i've also been taught to recognize this all of the time right um you know i i was in the women's clothing section of a target and you know there was an employee who seemed to i think seemed to be wondering why i was there for so long right just a dude lingering in the ladies department right i don't know if that's actually what's running through their mind but i notice it um but i'm i've not yet dealt with any explicit um issues um but i've also been pretty reserved in terms of how i um present myself when i'm going out in public so far the sort of most feminine i've been publicly is to wear like um you know uh i guess they're leggings uh right and and like a pink shirt and uh like fake earrings so i still um i'm still getting comfortable with that um yeah and you're still willing to go out with that so that's not i mean you're you're dealing with it i mean you're not basically you're not being frozen by other words no i i'm trying to really sort of slowly increment and push myself to be more comfortable um which has been which has been good i mean like so i i work remotely i still don't uh wear a dress on my zoom call or whatever it is right but that's just all about my comfort level and i very much know that i'll eventually not care what people think and i'll live my life i don't yet know how much i should be concerned about actual risk of physical harm like i don't know if i go out in public what are the rates of you know i've heard that trans people are you know victims of hate crimes and this sort of thing but i don't know the data to know if i should be concerned for my physical safety that's the only thing i really do care about interestingly enough though one of the concerns i have is about how i'll respond to those situations when they happen because my default response is to attack back in a way that i associate with masculine which is like difficult for me to reconcile if that makes sense i'm getting sort of like thought processes but i was reading an interesting novel uh called d transition baby which is about like a series of trans people and you know their relationships and stuff um and there was one person who transitioned to female ended up getting in a street fight and couldn't reconcile the the person who would like throw a punch that aggressively with how they wanted to view themselves as feminine and that did and ended up de-transitioning back and so there's like so many more depths of like trying to understand how to conduct myself in a way that's comfortable um in terms of uh you know how do i want to present how will people react and respond to me and these sorts of things it's it's multi-dimensional um yeah yeah really and um you're speaking of novels and i know you said david that you said you were new to iron rant but have you read the fountainhead yeah i i i love the fountain out of it i've read it uh three times yeah it's my my all-time favorite book so you you're preaching to the choir but yeah i can imagine you know we could extrapolate what would howard how would howard rook you know behave or how would he act if he you know was struggling with gender dysphoria and you know and well you know he was transgender or whatever the the terminology is because on the one hand i he wouldn't hide it he's just you know this is this is who i am on the other hand he wouldn't be in your face aggressive you know bleep yo yo yo you know you won't accept me for what i am so you know you're the enemy he you know he's neither peter keating you know nor lois cook right he's not a conformist to the crowd and he's not a rebel against the crowd he's just howard rock you know whoever whoever he is and um reminds me because uh because i mentioned before dr jason hill you know when we were discussing the female in sports and i first became aware of he's a philosophy professor at the paul university in chicago he's objectives i first became aware of him a few years ago i don't know seven years ago maybe he he published an essay in salon now salon never mentions ayn rand except to basher they either they the bashar or the ignora but i was flabbergasted they published this very positive essay that that jason hill wrote uh what was the title black jamaican and gay and iron rand made it okay and he was talking about you know howard rock and how you know how growing up in jamaica you know with what they call that black neck culture that's very aggressive towards gay you know and um you know he you know reading reading the fountainhead and ayn rand made him realize i i'm an independent human being and as long as i don't initiate force or fraud against innocent victims i live my life in accordance with my own judgment and i think that's got to be tremendously liberating for you know for somebody who you know you really integrate that and realize the truth of it that i would think that would be very liberating for somebody who who often might be a social social outcast so yeah remember go ahead i think that's hugely important i read an essay i think uh an essay by stuart margolis who was talking about how ayn rand helped him be able to be very comfortable in his homosexuality yeah and the objective standard right i remember i remember that i said uh yeah yeah yeah it was it was a very good essay sure go ahead yeah and and about how it helped him avoid a lot of the pitfalls of of like people who are are struggling with their homosexuality and this sort of thing and and for me it's been again hugely beneficial because if i come to judge this as the truth of my like psychological state of who i want to be there's only a question of how long it takes me to accept it right because i can hold the pain and i and it only goes down so far and because i know that my life is worth living i've experienced good moments and i can get through this because this is again i've mentioned before but it is extremely painful to have to deal with this like psychologically painful there's physical pain components um because like you know my body doesn't know how it should be right like there's confusing stuff going on but i i hold on to the fact that my life is worth living i i do have you know inherent value in the fact that i'm alive and my life is mine um to live and and it's interesting because when i think about it as well when i think of like howard roark it's it's about sort of countering my anxiety as well actually because when i'm out in the world and i'm thinking about how is everyone viewing me right that's the anxiety is okay everyone i'm i'm projecting how people are seeing me rather than just living my life right rather than than just being in my experience and i think like when i think of howard rourke that's what i think of is he was always just in his life in his experience which is the way i want to be and so that's a like it's it's helpful on sort of the macro level but also on the micro level it's helpful for me to when i'm struggling and i'm worried about how people are viewing me that it doesn't matter and i have examples of like when i uh would have you know i used to have like a big like silly hairdo and this sort of stuff and like not caring but so it's like but it's a very good uh exp like a concrete example of how i want to conduct myself like daily as well in terms of being in my life in my self right and it's so hard it's so difficult to become like howard rock in the in the important sense i have independ the virtue of independence integrated through my entire life you know intellect emotion physical actions because you know other people they they are our brothers and sisters you know they're they're they're important and yet at the end of the day the truth is if i'm true to myself and i'm true to my own judgment and my own values and especially if my values are rational you know and life-promoting and productive and you know i'm not dishonest then at the end of the day it it it does not matter what their assessment is or or it's it's it's it's very secondary compared to be living in in a in a way that's true to myself uh and having and having the self-esteem and the pride that goes with that that's a that's an enormous achievement for somebody you know to to be able to do that stand naked in full sunlight right dominique franken uh says to me to be able to do that and like you said david i'm a good person my life is good i hope you see it but if you don't so good yeah so bad i go on i still go along with my life with my values and you know and and my self-esteem intact it's it's a real achievement to to reach that and especially i think if uh you're struggling with the kind of thing you're struggling with and so easy to be you know so socially ostracized on the one hand and or accepted in a certain way by people who are irrational and then when you give them a rational response then they're really good at ostracized and life is tough enough as it is and then having this on top of that it must feel like a real weight and i want to ask you one thing david what is the one thing that this issue is discussed that pisses you off in terms of the mainstream is there anything that jumps out of you that says man that is so wrong it's so destructive in a lot of ways for individuals who are dealing with this is right yeah well so it's actually the one thing is actually connects to what what andy was saying as well it's the fact that we can't discuss it right like that's the thing that angers me the most like there's lots of specific things that are an issue but like if i were to say one specific thing it's the method of thinking about it because it was totally chaotic in my mind and i think drives people to try and choose an alternative to reality and the only way to do that is to exit reality which is miserable and terrible and and i think that's a real issue and and so people are literally dying because we're not able to talk about it properly and they're not no one is helping them think about a complex issue properly and so those two things go hand in hand for me and that's the major thing i want to highlight to you like you know skeptical objectivists about this issue right i don't know how many people take this issue really seriously and i'll put forward like whether or not someone agrees if this is the right decision or it's rational for me like i'm trying my best to make a rational judgment for my life but i think the most important thing is to be able to talk about it publicly and properly because in the mainstream narrative they're they're literally denying scientific research that isn't in line with the narrative they're pushing about the psychology about other stuff as well and so i want to live the best life possible i want to be objective and rational right and i want to be able to understand the science if i can talk to psychologists and they can help me understand this better that will only help me live my life better if it turns out that they don't think that this is the right approach i'm totally open to that as well but to find proper resources and to have expert guidance is super difficult now let alone in the current uh uh current ecosystem right so i think that is what frustrates me the most is the inability to talk about this and i think it really gets to the root of how someone conceptualizes themselves right which is if you don't have help doing that about a deep issue or a deep um i part of your identity it's how how are you supposed to be able to do that on your own it's i mean having done it largely i wouldn't wish it upon anyone yeah you can also go go ahead mike i'm sorry just just one little quick observation they want us to celebrate it right out of the gate that's the only thing you can do so there's no discussion about buddy you know what celebrate it or else you're a transphobe and that's it i i don't know if you i don't know if either of you saw but there was a canadian father who just got jailed because they refused to use their 14 year old's child's chosen gender pronouns and and they're like the father is struggling to have them not yet like uh take uh purity puberty blocking puberty blockers or whatever it is right like it's so crazy like as soon as a six-year-old says that they're trans we need to celebrate it not question it not someone asked me someone was telling me how like if a five-year-old tells them that they're trans like you have to accept that and i was like how do you help them think about it how do they know that they're trans it's i it took me three years to understand this phenomenon in my own mind as an adult yeah and you were you were at long gone through puberty so you had some awareness of sexuality that a five or six year old can't possibly have and and they had no they had no response to offer like oh well the five-year-old will just know and it's like but not how would they know how are they supposed to think about this and come to this conclusion interesting that's a that's a religious argument isn't it it's like god just lets me know when i'm five years old that i'm that i'm transgender but you said something david that that i hadn't even thought of and and i and i think you're probably right because it goes back to what we were saying before so you know if i accept that i'm biologically male and i also accept that that i prefer to be female now i'm in touch with my biological reality i'm in touch with my emotional reality i know the truth and i could take steps i could get a rational plan whereas we follow the leftist mentality that any gender you want to be you know this this anti-reality you know um anti-your primacy what i mean called primacy consciousness that you know that my wishes or desires or society's wishes or desires above and before the facts of reality uh i'm clearly there at war with reality i can't deny that i'm biologically male but i am denied it but i can't you know facts are stubborn things they don't go away you know uh i could see people in so much pain over this that they turn to alcohol abuse drug abuse and as you were saying before the people could die you know um you know be because of this yeah and i i it was a very important milestone for me to accept i kept like trying to understand okay how am i a woman but like that wouldn't integrate i couldn't get my mind to accept that and so i had to accept no i'm like i'm a transgendered person that is it was a different category in my thinking and that was the only way i was able to move forward um and i i having had issues with accepting other parts of my identity for longer and and more vividly you do then escape it right if if i am trying to tell myself every day i am a woman but i have all of this information that tells me i'm not right how do i reconcile that how do i carry both it's it's extremely difficult um or impossible and and you shouldn't want to do that and so you numb yourself out right and i mean i i can't definitively say right now how much of my conduct in the past was directly because of this but i had an extremely distorted relationship with sex and womanizing i partied all of the time i was trying to escape something i was always trying to run from something um and i think many people do that and and you know it's a whole other discussion about like you know the i have friends in in the gay community who very much fit the stereotype of just for some reason they party all of the time they're total hedonists and they're thoughtful people they're intelligent people yet there's some reason they're not accepting of who they are and they're they're trying to escape something deeply and and i don't want to make a leap and you know generalize broadly but to me it's it's somehow related to this lack of being able to fully accept yourself and i don't see how someone could fully accept themselves if there's a a um a contradiction in their thinking yeah they're denying a big part of reality and that and i think you're right when once somebody turns to hedonism it increases your chances of an early death you know remember age remember age 27 what was when i was talking about like it's causing people to die i don't just mean from hedonism and that sort of thing like yeah it's suicide as well right like people like imagine being you know 23 totally lost and you realize or start thinking maybe i'm i'm trans and you're told that oh it's because you were born in the wrong body reality like you cannot you know that no matter what you do you cannot actually become a woman and then you're being told that the narrative was that if you don't get the surgery that is life or death right like it was being compared uh people getting their breasts removed because they're trans was being compared to cancer and if someone's breast removal was bumped for a cancer removal that was transphobia that's what i was reading and so you're being told okay like you're born in the wrong body you're being told that you need surgery to be happy and if you don't get it it's because society hates you and doesn't validate your view you're being told that no one can understand your experience and other people are being told that they can't understand your experience so you're totally alone and and then people are wondering why people are choosing to escape that world view they're trying to escape that and how what option do you have if you're at that point where you you're you're fighting with yourself you you probably hate a lot of yourself because you're reconciling and you're everything you could ground yourself to you're being told is against you it's it's horrible it's truly horrible and having been in that state that's why like i need to i need to make sure as few people experience that as possible because it's truly truly miserable one last thing david i know you had a little time time go straight is there anything else you want to discuss with me any any issue that that that you haven't yet so far just something that they want to point out in particular anything nothing in particular comes to mind like i think um like i i do think it's a very fundamental issue right like what's going on now i i really think that trans narrative is sort of like uh uh a climax of a lot of what's going on with the left-wing narrative that's my view and i think it's interesting to really understand what's going on both in how it's impacted the culture since it's become a prominent issue but also in terms of how it's impacting individuals minds and the way they're talking about it right like i think a lot about like both the media and sort of like psycho epistemology right like how someone's views of the world impacts their own psychological health and i think it's a really i mean obviously i'm biased because it's my experience as well but like i think it's a really interesting phenomenon to look at in terms of what's been going on since this has become a prominent issue um but i i'm happy i'm just happy to be able to talk about it and and i hope to have opportunities to sort of counter the narrative because that's the only way is there's lots of voices yelling one thing and so we need to start speaking about an alternative viewpoint um but you know nothing else comes to mind at the moment in terms of a of a concrete thing that i think you know needs to be addressed well i appreciate you are coming on uh and discussing the way you have because i think you take it very seriously you're a very serious person and it's very important to do so i think to deal with it properly that's all thank you thank you yeah i mean i think it's very courageous david and uh how we doing on time yeah we have yeah we have a few minutes um i know you have i know you have time constraints as but i said i just wanted to make one last point philosophic point um because you know three four years ago i was talking with my daughter penny who's now 18 and she's a great kid uh she was 14 at the time and he was going through school getting all this you know leftist propaganda and i was you know you were talking on this issue and i said well you can't be any gender you want to be reality is is what it is you could you you know politically legally you were very right if somebody's male had every right to believe he's female and dress female and convince other people his family's got every political legal right to do so but he's still male uh and i uh gave i told that there's a great quote that's attributed to abraham lincoln who said i don't know if this is true or apocryphal but the story is that he was talking to a backwoods audience and he said if we if we call a horse's tail or leg how many legs will the horse then have at five the audience said that the horse will have five legs and lincoln said no the horse will have four legs because calling a tail a leg will not make it so now that there is a perfect down-home common sense expression of the primacy of existence right it doesn't say reality is not malleable based on social you know appeal or or approval and so mike penny was 14. she got it right away she said to me so dad she said so if somebody somebody thinks he's an elephant you know and he dresses up in an elephant suit and he's got the trunk and he walks around and all fours and we had to look up what sounds elephants make they trump it as it turns out he trumpets like an elephant and and you know and convinces everybody he's an elephant which is completely the person's political legal right to do so she said to me but he's still not an elephant he's a human being right i said yes exactly you guys so the privacy of existence you know reality doesn't change so i just hope everybody struggling with this issue could become as rational as you are david except those fundamental truths i am biologically whatever gender i was born to be but psychologically i want to be you know uh the the other gender once they have those two truths recognized then i think they're much better positioned to form a rational plan to like you said pursue pursue happiness for the rest of their life and hopefully hopefully attain happiness one last observation in terms of wanting it's like you believe this is uh something that whether you want or not you're going through it regardless david i mean this is just something that is yes you're dealing with i mean it's not about desire you know in order to set out i want to be in this particular thing no you just basically came across you you're dealing with it the best you can yeah and yeah i'd say it wasn't like i woke up one day and said like i want to be trans like i'm going to choose to be trans it's like no this is a reality i'm dealing with it's a psycho psychological reality but one thing i'll add uh to andy's point as well um and we won't have time to get into this because it's it's sort of the this is the essence of what the gender discussion should be about in my view right because yes i do have to accept that i'm a biological man but also someone who transitions to man and does the surgery and all of this stuff they're they're technically a biological female still but they don't in any way look like or present as one they totally look like a man they present as a man so like what is the like if we're saying that man means biological male female means biological female what do we then say to refer to people who've transitioned to that do we just call them a trans man trans woman as like is currently the case that's fine that's interesting but then is there a valid argument this is i'm currently thinking through this to be said that there is a difference between sex and gender because two weeks ago i would have said no growing up all i had come across was that gender means the same thing as biological sex like that is what the term means right but if there is someone who was born a woman transitions fully to a man like to a trans man right so they get surgery um and they look and present as a man what is the proper concept to discuss them because to to talk about them as a woman doesn't make sense in my view but they're not a biological man so this is the sort of the weeds of the issue in my view and i i don't know the answer but but i think you know at least in the current state there seems to be enough people that it's it warrants a conversation how do we properly conceptualize this so that it reflects reality because i know like i don't plan to get bottom surgery which in some people's minds would say i'm not even trans because i've not transitioned fully right but someone who has they wouldn't want to be referred to by their birth sex because and it wouldn't make sense to the average observer to to label them with their birth sex so it's a it's a really interesting thing that i've only been sort of uh thinking about uh recently that i think but that's the type of conversation we should be having if we were able to talk about this properly and objectively and try and understand how do we understand this the best so we can help people so we can reflect reality and be rational about it right right and to stop that reality right that's what i was gonna say have that focus have that focus on reality always not just what i wish but here's here's somebody who was biologically female who has changed in many ways towards masculinity and now we're dealing with reality right we're not just dealing with not placing the i wish above them before the it is that's that's excellent david so again i want to i want to echo what boss said thanks for coming on the show and and uh uh you got two friends here who have your back yeah two kids two kids from the new york boroughs who who aren't wearing a couple of snowflakes you know so we got we got we got your back and we absolutely you know admire your courage and support you so so thanks very much david and all the best to you and your pursuit of happiness thank you both so much i appreciate it thank you you are very welcome all right everybody out there in free speech land this is another i can't boss this is episode eight already yes buy flights while you're having fun right it really really does all right we got some we got some good stuff coming up in the future we'll announce we'll announce soon what uh what our next show will be but have a good night everybody and we will see you soon on truth in politics or voir bonsoir