Sherwood Boys with (Mike Somerville)

Sherwood Boys with (Mike Somerville)

In this episode of American Civil War & UK History, host Daz was joined by historian and author Mike Somerville to discuss the famous Sherwood Boys and their role during World War II.

Mike has written two fantastic books focusing on the battalion and the experiences of the men who served in the Sherwood Foresters, bringing their wartime story and bravery to life.

The Sherwood Foresters (Nottinghamshire and Derbyshire Regiment) had a long and distinguished history before becoming part of today’s Mercian Regiment. Formed in 1881 from the 45th and 95th Regiments of Foot, the regiment served across the British Empire and in many major conflicts.

During the Second World War the Sherwood Foresters raised 14 battalions which fought in numerous theatres of war. They saw action in Norway in 1940, later serving in North Africa and Italy.

The Sherwood Foresters played an important role in the global conflict, continuing a proud tradition of service that lives on today in the Mercian Regiment.

Sherwood Boys Website
https://www.sherwoodboys.co.uk/

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https://www.acwandukhistory.com/

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Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

To keep up to date with everything for American Civil War and UK history, head over to our website, ACW and UKhistory.com. And remember, this podcast has a PowerPoint presentation that goes along with the show. So if you would like to see the PowerPoint presentation, then head over to our YouTube channel at American Civil War and UK History. Cheers. Hello everyone, I'm Daz and welcome to American Civil War and UK History Podcast. This presentation is available as a video on our YouTube channel or as a podcast from wherever you get your podcast from. And if you're watching on YouTube, remember to hit that subscribe button and give us a big thumbs up. And check out our website at www.acwandukhistory.com for updates, podcasts, blog posts, and links to all of our social media pages. And also, this is available in the podcast description. And joining me today is author and historian Mike Somerville. Welcome, Mike.

SPEAKER_01 0:55

Good afternoon, Dennis. Great to be with you.

SPEAKER_00 0:58

Thank you. And of course, we're going to be talking about uh Sherwood Foresters today, um, which uh Mike has written two books, which we will get on to at the end of the podcast. Um, okay, Mike, so who were the Sherwood Foresters?

SPEAKER_01 1:13

So the Sherwood Foresters are uh what we call a county regiment in the British Army. Um they are what used to be the old uh infantry regiments of the Rhine. Um in the 1880s, um these were reorganised onto a regional basis. And the Sherwood Foresters are the county regiment for Nottinghamshire and Derbyshire. Um quite a nice bit of name recognition there because everybody knows Robin Hood and Sherwood Forest. Um so although they're not the oldest regiment in the British Army, um they're quite they're they're quite popular and they they had quite a good uh record for recruitment and things like that.

SPEAKER_00 1:55

Now obviously we're gonna we're gonna delve into their World War II story, but they they were they had been involved in a couple of the wars before World War II, hadn't they? So uh um they was involved in the Boer War, I believe, and also World War I, yes?

SPEAKER_01 2:09

Yeah, so very briefly they've they're formed as long ago as uh original the original regiment was the 45th Regiment Foot, which was formed in 1741, I think. Um they fought in um uh Quebec, they fought in the American War of Independence, um, Napoleonic Wars, Crimean War, um and yes, then the Boer War and the First World War. Um 140,000 men in the First World War, 33 battalions, um, staggering numbers, really.

SPEAKER_00 2:37

Okay, so how how did the British regimental system work and how is it different from our US counterparts as far as regiments and battalions are concerned?

SPEAKER_01 2:47

Yeah, so um I guess you have a lot of American listeners, um, and both America and also European armies. Uh, a regiment is actually a combat formation. Um, that's not quite the same in the British Army. The regiment is very much an organizational thing. Um, and in a in a US regiment, which is the Second World War regiment, you you will have three battalions within the regiment. Um, as I just said, in the First World War, the German Forest has raised 33 battalions. Um, they don't all fight together. Sometimes they do, sometimes they don't. Um but the as I say, the the the battalion is really the combat unit in the British Army, and you get battalions that are grouped together in brigades, but those brigades aren't always from the same regiment. Uh and the regiments of and the battalions in a regiment are also very different different in their nature. So you always have in a county regiment, you have two regular battalions, which are permanent battalions, um, but you then have uh territorial battalions. Um, this for American uh listeners, those are sort of the equivalent of National Guard, they're the reserve units, uh, and they're regionally based. Um, and then during the war, you also get um wartime battalions arrays, additional wartime battalions arrays just for the duration of the hostilities, and you also get things like training battalions and home guard battalions, so a wide variety of different uh characters uh and and and different personnel within the same regiment as because of this variety of different battalion types.

SPEAKER_00 4:26

Um okay, why did you become interested in particular, Mike, in the Sherwood Foresters and the 2nd and the 5th Battalion in particular?

SPEAKER_01 4:34

That 2nd 5th Battalion, it's it's 2nd and 5th Battalion.

unknown 4:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 4:39

Apologies. Um so, in a sense, um it's a purely random interest. But it's a random interest which was um put on me by uh an unknown person in an infantry replacement depot somewhere in Italy in September, October 1943. Um, because when my father arrived in Italy, this chap decided that he was going to go as a replacement to the Sherwood Forest, the second well, it by then they were actually the fifth Sherwood Foresters. Um, but it was what was originally formed as the second fifth Sherwood Foresters in 1939. Um they'd suffered horrendous casualties in the two months since they landed in Italy, and my father was sent to replacement. So uh back in 2011, I got my father's war record, and I thought, hmm, this is interesting. I'll find out what what you know what his battalion did. Uh, and what I discovered was it was very difficult to find that out, um, because there's very little reference to the battalion in most of the histories, and I'm sure we'll talk on a little bit further about you know why some of the campaigns they fought in are mostly forgotten in British military history.

SPEAKER_00 5:54

Okay, and and is that something your father ever spoke to you about, his war experiences?

SPEAKER_01 6:00

My father features very little in the book. It is not the story of my father, it's the story of the battalion and how the battalion changes as the war goes on, um, particularly partly as a result of casualties, partly as a result of the nature of the war. Um, no, um it it's I've in the in the course of my research, I've spoken to a lot of descendants of the battalions and met some of them, some of them communicated through email. Quite a lot of them have even sent me uh their own research into their own ancestors' history, whether it be fathers or grandfathers. And the overwhelming uh story is that veterans do not talk about their experiences, particularly to family members in some respects. Um they talk to their comrades, um, but it was very difficult, I think. And some of the stories I tell when I when I when I talk about this, I think that people who did not go through it, I think it was very difficult for them to understand the experiences, and I think it was very difficult for people to talk about their experiences to people who have not experienced combat and some of the deprivations which they caught which uh they went through.

SPEAKER_00 7:17

Absolutely, absolutely. Um, but yeah, so but having that having that family connection, you know, that must have been obviously you, you know. I know you wanted to learn about the regiment and the battalion and everything, but having that family connection, I suppose, is quite quite a nice thing, isn't it?

SPEAKER_01 7:32

It it's the reason that this is the battalion I studied, so yeah, that family connection is important in that respect. Um, but equally, again, because I've got in touch with all these other people, I I I've got I've become very emotionally attached to complete strangers who nevertheless went through the same thing that my father went through. Um, and there's some extraordinary stories. Um there really are some incredible stories of courage and and suffering as well.

SPEAKER_00 7:57

Well, thanks for sharing that. Yeah. So anyway, okay, let's uh so where were the Sherwood uh Sherwood Foresters uh when war broke out in 1939, Mike?

SPEAKER_01 8:07

Okay, so as we said, there's there's different battalions of the Sherwood Foresters. So the two regular battalions, one of them was actually in the Middle East, uh in Palestine, um, and the other one was in um in the UK. Um the two territorial battalions, which as I say are these reserve battalions, um the the the they they were in in uh March 1939, when Hitler invades Czechoslovakia, um the British the British government responds by doubling the size of the territorial army. Um and what happens is that the existing battalions, which is the 5th battalion in Derbyshire and the 8th Battalion in Northeast, are split into two. Um so that's why you get the 2nd 5th. So that explains that bit. Um and they're they're they're they're still in the UK, those those territorial battalions. Um the second Sherrod Foresters go very quickly to France as part of the British Expeditionary Force. The 1st 5th Battalion follow them quite quickly in November. Um, but they go as line of communication troops, they then go to the front line. Um, and then the other three battalions stay in the UK um until 1940. Um the 8th Battalion, which is the Nottinghamshire unit, uh the Nottinghamshire uh territorials, they go to Norway in 1940. They're the first unit to actually see action. Um but um uh if I don't know how many of your listeners know much about the Norway campaign, but it's it's 14 April May uh 1940. Uh the Germans uh invade Norway with uh considerable um air air superiority and they take most of the air difficulty in Norway. So the British and the French uh and the Poles are also there, they're always fighting, um you know, to try and catch up, if you like. Uh and the the She advisers uh they do fight, but they're up against trained German mountain troops, and unfortunately they they get a pretty bloody nose and they're forced to retire. Um the uh second, fifth and the ninth go to France in 1940, but interestingly enough they go as what as labour troops. The idea is that um they'll go uh on the line of communication, they'll spend some of their time building roads, building railways, building depots and that sort of thing, and the rest of their time catching up on their training until they're ready to go into the front line. When Germany attacks in France in May 1940, um those labour divisions are rushed forward into the front line to try and plug the holes. Um, and you you've put the map up there. Um the first is a part of what's uh the 46th division, which as I say, it it don't it's not a fully trained division, it's not a fully equipped division, um, but it ends up in the front line. And it ends up in the front line fighting alongside the French. Um the canal line you see there, um just south of a town called One Is, um which is south of Lille. Um the Sherwood Foresters fight there on the 26th of May. Um the Germans cross the canal, and once again the Foresters are really outclassed by the um by the trained German troops, and they're forced to put fall back. Um 26th of May is also the date on which the BEF decides that it's going to evacuate from Dunkirk. And on that date, the Sherman Foresters battalions are the furthest British troops from the Dunkirk, um, from the Dunkirk beachhead. Um however, they also, in spite of the fact that they are these um Labour Labour troops, they're not fully trained troops, um, they actually play quite an important role. Um, they actually are at what at one point they are actually on the Dunkirk perimeter fighting off the German attacks, and they're one of the very last battalions to leave. Um you see a picture there on a British destroyer. Um I I don't know for certain, but it's quite possible that quite a number of those men are Sherrod Foresters, because that is a that is the the ship that took a lot of the Sherrod Foresters off on the night of the first and second of June 1940.

SPEAKER_00 12:38

How interesting. Yeah, and I mean, you know, I go to Dover Castle quite a lot and see the the exhibition there on uh you know Operation Dynamo, and uh it was it was something, you know. Um yeah, um and you know, um Norway is something that for in that time period you don't ever hear anything of. I've never really ever thought about it. I've only ever thought about Dunkirk in that little time period of you know May 1940. So yeah, that's interesting. That's uh something new for me. I didn't know anything about that. Okay, so what kind of impact uh did those early defeats have on the 2nd, 5th battalion, Mike?

SPEAKER_01 13:16

Um, it's interesting. Um, I mean you might think that morale would be very low after this. Um, and certainly when they come back, I think people are the the the soldiers are a bit concerned that you know what how are the public going to treat them? Are they uh you know are they gonna treat them as cowards, they're gonna treat them as as losers, sort of thing. Um actually the public reaction is very good. Um you know there's um a lot of support for the troops as they arrive in Dover and the other ports on the south coast. Um the the battalion reforms up in Manchester, um, and it's very well received by the people in Manchester. You know, they they go out their way to give them you know beer in pubs and free haircuts and all sorts of things. Um, so the the response the response from the public to um the army coming back is actually very positive. So I think that helps them a lot. Um the other interesting thing is reading some of their accounts is that they feel that you know they weren't given a fair chance, as I say. These these people went out barely trained, armed just with rifles, and they're up against stookers and tanks. Um and there's a very real feeling that you know, give us the right tools and we can beat these guys. Um so from that point of view, morale, I think it was actually quite good once they've got over the original shock. Um, and it's also interesting that you could, I think on the previous slide you had some pictures of the um of the of the unit training. Um and when I when I talk about those pictures, I uh I often say these these look a bit Dad's Army. Um Dad's Army is a World War II comedy series for those people who who may never have heard of it, who probably don't live in Britain. Um and it and it does, it looks a bit amateurish, doesn't it? But they've left the army's left most of its equipment behind in France. Um so if you haven't got any trucks, you you want to try and practice mobile warfare. What's the obvious thing to do? Well, you commandeer local buses. It it looks amateurish, but actually it really makes a lot of sense. And the British Army is actually very good, I think, throughout history, um, uh improvisation and sort of this this sort of amateur way of warfare, if you like.

SPEAKER_00 15:31

Yeah, and again, you know, that's what gets forgotten about Dunkirk is again they pretty much left everything there. They had apart from the men, obviously. Um yeah, that's uh that's interesting. What an interesting picture.

SPEAKER_01 15:44

Yeah, and it and it and it influences the rest of the war because for for example, you know, if this is a second line battalion, if you like. The first people who get rearmed are obviously going to be the regulars, the next people who get re-armed are going to be the first line territorials. So these guys are at the bottom of the pecking order when it comes to being re-organic and re-armed. Um, so the you know, the keep keeping morale up in those circumstances is a very difficult job. And I I think the officers of the battalion do a remarkable job in in you know restoring morale, frankly.

SPEAKER_00 16:22

Yeah. And also I think that, and so this is going to get on to our next topic and their next location, but I also feel like sometimes North Africa is sort of forgotten about in that early part of the war, and that you know, there was that race there to get the uh canal, wasn't there? Um the Suez Canal. And uh is that the one? Yeah. Yeah, yes, yes. Um, but again, you know, I think it's been under uh you know, I don't think it's appreciated enough how involved Britain are in North Africa, and of course our interests are there at the time. We've still got a sort of an empire going on. So, how do the Sherwood Foresters adapt to fighting in North Africa and why is Tunisia campaign so often overlooked itself?

SPEAKER_01 17:04

Um, yeah, so I I think North Africa, I I'm not sure I quite agree with you, because I think North Africa on the whole, um, I think is a is talked about a lot in British in British military history. Um, but it does tend to focus a lot on Alamain, which is you know, it's that Lord Churchill says, you know, before Alamain we never had victory, after Alamane we had never had defeat. So he sets it up to be the big turning point. Well, actually, there's actually, I think that's a little bit unfair on a lot of the men and generals who fought in North Africa before that. Um, it is really the only place in which we're fighting the German army for nearly two years. Um, the Sherv, the the two two of the battalions of the Sherwood Foresters, the 1st Battalion, which was in the Middle East at the beginning of the war, uh, and the 14th, which is one of those wartime-raised battalions, they do actually fight um in the Western Desert. Um, the 1st Battalion um fights in June 1942, uh, and unfortunately it gets involved in another one of those great British defeats, which is the loss of the book, um, when where a lot of the men of the battalion are captured. Um the 14th battalion goes to um the desert, and they fight they fight at the Battle of Alamang, so they've sort of broken that losing streak, if you like. Um but the the second fifth battalion I deal with um goes to Tunisia, as you say. And Tunisia is completely unlike um the Western Desert. Um, you can if you can see in the bottom picture there, um this is North Tunisia, uh it's hilly, it's much more like a European climate. It's in in the winter, which is uh when they go there, they go, they leave Britain on the Christmas Day 1942. Um, so this is January, February, March of their fighting. Um it's cold, it's wet, uh, the hills are very rocky, so it's very difficult to dig foxholes. Um, it really isn't a great, it's not a pleasant place to be. And again, you've got to think about this is the first time these people have been away from from UK ever, probably in most of their lives. Um, it's certainly the first time they've been on any extended campaign, um, and it's gonna be the first time that most of them are actually gonna have actually been in combat. Um, so again, once again, a very difficult learning curve for these for these young men. And they are predominantly young, by the way. I I uh uh the the the boys who go to France in 1940, I've done some looking at some of the um the casualty lists, and the average age of the um of the of the um those who die in action um is just over 20. These are very young boys all the time.

SPEAKER_00 19:56

Yeah, and s and and and how much so when when you put your uh your books together, how much uh um you know resources were available as far as letters and and and notebooks and things like that? Was you able to source that source material for Yeah?

SPEAKER_01 20:11

So when I started, I when I started, I thought, oh, it's gonna be a question of getting the war division, and it's I it I I thought it was gonna be easy, quite honestly. And then um I spoke to the Regimental Archive, and I also discovered that in Nottinghamshire Archive there was a very active battalion association. Um and the uh secretary of the battalion association, when it finally wound up in 2005, uh, a man called Wally Bench, he had collected huge amounts of stories, photographs. Um, he'd also arranged with the Imperial War Museum to do a lot of um oral accounts, um, so uh cassette tapes. Um so I have a huge number, I think I think there is about 150 men in the battalion who have left some form of account, and that ranges from a full biography of everything they did in the war down to little snippets of of information about one particular incident. But yeah, um huge amount of personal information uh personal recollections of the war, and pulling all those together with the official documentation, um you I think you know there's this sort of 360-degree view, if you like, of what the battalion was going, um was doing, which I think I I'd like to think it's um fairly unique. And I also, as I say, I looked at a lot of um things like casualty lists and uh uh and such like um to try and understand how some of the statistics worked. It's like like you know, how old were these people, what were their backgrounds, and things like that. Um so the um again, the Forrester's first experience of war in Tunisia is not brilliant because once again. This is an untrained battalion and it get it ends up fighting against German paratroopers who are veteran troops. Field Marshal Harald Alexander said the the uh troops that they were fighting were some of the best troops in Tunisia. Um so their first action is frankly a little bit of a disaster. Um the battalion is heavily defeated, uh a significant number of men are taken prisoner because the battalion gets surrounded. Um just 12 days after that, they go into a second action in which they try a counter-attack, um, which is initially successful and then is beaten back, and then a third action in which again the Germans uh start to surround them, but this time they have managed to um extricate themselves from the from the from the German pincer. Um for reference, a very a battalion is about 750 men in fight, and and probably only about two-thirds of those are actually fighting troops. You've got you know, you've got the drivers, cooks, signallers, all those sort of people who are essential parts of the battalion but are not actually riflemen on the ground. Um so during those two weeks of battle, the foresters lose something like 500 casualties. So effectively, the whole frontline strength is killed. Now, of course, that doesn't mean that everybody who started the combat is killed because they get re they get reinforcements replacements during that period. Um but staggering numbers, we think about World War One in terms of this attritional warfare. Um the frontline infantry units of World War II take enormous casualties, and that's a theme that I'll come back to when we talk about Italy.

SPEAKER_00 23:50

Yeah, wow. That's uh yeah, that's a lot, isn't it? Um and uh again, you know, that's gonna play into morale, like um, you know, that's uh yeah. Um okay.

SPEAKER_01 24:02

Yeah, so yeah, yeah, so morale morale morale at the end of March 1942 is probably the lowest it ever reaches in the battalion, I suspect.

SPEAKER_00 24:13

And as you said, you know, they're gonna play a significant role in the Italian campaign. And I know obviously this is probably one of your favourite, you know, parts that you've got to research. Although, again, you know, probably wasn't one of their favourite parts to be involved in. Um, so but um Mike, tell us about uh that this you know very long Italian campaign because it's quite a long one, isn't it? And involved in some major engagements, aren't they?

SPEAKER_01 24:40

Yeah, that's right. Um so they they they don't play a role in um Salerno, uh Salerno, they don't play a role in Sicily, um, but the 40 they're still part of 46th Division, and 46th Division is one of the formations which uh is landed at Salerno. Um and as you the this again, the Italian campaign has tended to be forgotten about by most uh most most people these days. Um we um I was I was at the 80th commemoration of Salerno um two years ago 2023. Um and I went out there and the the the British Embassy um did put on um you know a big a big effort to make sure that the you know the the forces were represented there and things like that. But if you compare that with what was done for the D-Day commemorations for the 80th of D-Day, it just pales into insignificance. Um there is no real recognition of the importance of the Solano campaign in terms of this was the first time that British and American troops actually landed on mainland Europe. Um so again, three weeks of fighting, 250 casualties. Um two weeks after that, um the foresters go to the River Volturno. Um River Volterno is the next German defensive line after um after Serno. And there's a full-scale army attack on this. They're fighting, they're fighting under the American US Fifth Army, in fact. Um so this is an allied effort, it's not just a British effort, this is an allied force which is which is involved. Um so they go across the Volterno. Again, they are attacked by some of the best German troops in Italy um by the 15th Panzer Division. Um the river Volterno in October is in flood, so it's very difficult for them to get heavy weapons across, they can't get their anti-tank guns across. Um, they slug it out with the 15th Panzer pretty much all day. Uh and but eventually they just they literally run out of things to fight back with. Um the the barrels of things like the mortars and the machine guns are red hot, um, and they're just not going to work anymore. Um, so anyway, so um the picture there is actually uh is actually foresters again. Um this is a picture from the Imperial War Museum. Um propaganda picture, of course. Um, this is German prisoners of war coming coming across from the initial attack. Um, this is a staged photograph taken a couple of days after the battle. Um as I say, it's men of the men of the foresters in there, and they probably weren't too happy about taking this stage photograph. Um, because once again, um the battalion has taken something in the region of 200 casualties in this battle. Um, some of them captured, but if you're the wrong side of the river and you're being surrounded by the enemy, there's not very much you can do other than surrender. Um uh the forest the foresters lose five out of six of their company commanders uh killed or wounded or captured. They lose their senior uh commanding officer wounded, they lose their second in command wounded, and they lose the battalion adjutant who's the sort of executive officer uh captured. So uh huge losses in uh officers and uh equally uh devastating losses in some of the companies as well, amongst the uh amongst the um the private soldiers and the NCOs. So by the end of October, there is only one battalion in Italy which has taken more casualties than the fifth show of forest as well.

SPEAKER_00 28:38

Wow.

SPEAKER_01 28:39

That's uh yeah and and you were talking about morale. Yeah. My father joined them three days after that action on the Volto. So you can imagine what they're coming, what what some of these reinforcements are coming in coming from?

SPEAKER_00 28:54

Now you know, when it comes to reinforcements as well, they're probably looked on differently, aren't they? Because they haven't been through those same experiences that others have been through. So would that have been the case, do you think?

SPEAKER_01 29:07

Yes, I mean uh as I said, one of the things that I I focus on is this whole question about um turnover of of people in battalion. So when the when the battalion goes to um to Tunisia, it is very much still a Nottinghamshire and Derbyshire battalion. Um again, I've tried to do some analysis based upon casualty lists because it's very difficult. Other than casualty lists, you don't tend to get any evidence about who the private soldiers serving in a battalion are. Um and I think something like 70 or 80% of the soldiers, again, this is for in American terms, it's the enlisted men, it's the privates and the NCOs. Um, something like 70-80% of those were initially recruited or volunteered for the Sherwood Foresters. By the time you get to Salerno with all of those casualties, only about 30 to 40 percent of the men are originally Sherrod Foresters. So my father was not originally a shepherd forester, he was originally recruited into something called the General Service Corps, he was then assigned to another county regiment called the Bedfordshire and Hartfordshire Regiment, and it's only when he goes to Italy and actually goes into the front line that he's then assigned to the to the to the foresters. Um assimilating those people again is an ab is absolutely key. Um, some regiment, some battalions I think do it well, some battalions do it not so well. Um and again, I think it's a tribute to the officers of the battalion that they do seem to be able to get keep the battalion operating at quite a high level of uh of performance in spite of this continual church of of people and people coming in who are not necessarily from you know, don't they don't necessarily have the regimental background and the regimental ethos behind them.

unknown 31:10

Wow.

SPEAKER_00 31:10

Really good. Uh fascinating story. Um so um tell us about the winter line, Mike.

SPEAKER_01 31:17

What yeah, yeah, yeah. Um so my father often talked about Monte Cassino, um, which is the one name in Italy, I think, which does have popular recognition. You know, i i it it's a it's a name that people do recognise. Um if you look at British accounts of the Battle of Monte Cassino, you will not find any reference to 42nd Division or the um or the show advisors because they don't take part in the actual battles which are around um the casino monastery. However, they do take part in what was uh in the American operations um just south of Casino. Um there's an there's an initial operation uh at Monte Camino, which is the picture at the bottom there. I talked about um rain in um in Tunisia. Uh most of us go to Italy if if we've been there on holiday, we go June, July, August, September when it's nice and sunny. Um the Apennine Mountains in November, December, January, February are horrible. Um, you can see the way the rain here if you're higher up in the hills, this is snow. It's a dreadful place to fight um during the winter. Uh, and the Germans, of course, take full advantage of this. Let's not let's not diminish the fact that the Germans are very, very good troops and with very skilled commanders at all levels of the army. Um, they know exactly how to prepare a position. Um, you've got continual river lines, which they are able to defend, you've got mountain lines, which they're able to defend. Um, and it's a it's a slogging match. It's it is an attrition, it's attritional warfare, not exactly like the first world war, because you don't have those continuous trench lines. Um but in in scale of casualties, it's not very dissimilar. Um, and in the conditions in which men have to fight, it's not very dissimilar, quite frankly, as well. Um, so um the first battle of casino, which is the attack by the Texan division um across the river Rapido, um, quite a notorious action in in American um military military history. Um it was a very bloody defeat for the American for the American Tex the Texans. Um the Foresters are actually fighting literally alongside them. Um there is a small out German outpost, the wrong side of the river, i.e. the American side of the river, um, which the uh foresters take out on the day of the American attack. Um the only secondary history that I've actually seen that in is in the official US Fifth Army history. It's not mentioned at all in British histories, but it's in the official US Fifth Army history. Um the foresters are pulled out um middle of February, the last thing they see is the um is the bombing of the monastery. And again, by that time uh about 700, 750 casualties. I can't remember the exact number. Um so you know, again, in num in numerical terms, the equivalent of an entire battalion has been lost in five months, four months.

SPEAKER_00 34:24

Wow, staggering. Okay, so and again I think it like you said, sort of the Italian campaign, uh I don't think people realise how brutal it was. And uh I think would you say it's because that's where the the the best uh uh German troops are at that point in time, would you say?

SPEAKER_01 34:41

Um it's well, I mean it is it is where the British and the Americans are fighting the Germans. I mean, I wouldn't like to say that the German troops are necessarily better than say the German troops were fighting in Russia, um, but there are some very good troops. Um the terrain is particularly well suited to defence. Um, and yeah, there's there's there's yeah, it's definitely a very, very difficult task. Um, and again, there's a learning curve here because we talked about Salerno, all three uh divisions which which land at Salerno, both the two English divisions and the American division, it's the first time they've ever fought together in combat. Um you know the 46th division did fight in Tunisia, but it never fought as a single division, it fought very split up for reasons we've not gone into. Um, so all the time, Mark Clark, the American commander, you know, he's never commanded an army. He's you know all all throughout the army, um, people are having to learn. Um so there's a very steep learning curve here going on in Italy, and it's those lessons in Italy that enable the campaign in Northwest Europe to be so successful, imagine.

SPEAKER_00 35:57

Yeah, that's yeah, I was gonna mention that. Uh, you know, obviously learning here is gonna harden them all up, isn't it? Yeah, definitely. Um, okay, what about the Gothic line? Let's talk about that. Tell us about that.

SPEAKER_01 36:11

Yeah, so the the fighters are pulled out in February, and they go to um they go to the Middle East, they go to Palestine and Syria to retrain, basically. Um they come back probably at their most effective. Um there's there's several people who say uh you know whose accounts say that you know we finally had a chance to get together, take stock, get them. We talked about the m morale, getting people to work together, getting uh really building a battalion ethos and an understanding between the officers and the NCOs and the men. Um so when they come back to Italy, which is in um July 1944, um it's that I think they're probably the most effective that they are ever going to be. Um the Gothic line is in the northern Apennines. Um, so Rome Rome was Rome falls two days before um the landings in Normandy, Rome falls. So it doesn't get the headlines for very long, but it's quite an important event. It's the first first uh capital of the um of the fascist powers to fall. The Gothic line, as I say, is the main German defensive, the last German defensive line um in Italy. It's been being prepared for a couple of a year or so by now. Um, it's not the Atlantic War, let's be quite honest about that. But again, the the nature of the Italian terrain means that it is still very formidable. Um, the the map there is um what's called a defence overlay. So this is the the British intelligence map showing where all the machine gun positions and things are. Um, and just to give you an understanding of scale, those squares are one kilometre square, so they're one hundred they're they're one thousand yard squares. Um Belvedere Folienza, which is at the middle, roughly in the middle of the map, that's the Foresters' objective on the 30th of August. The the top picture there is what Belvedere Folienza looks like. It is literally a medieval fortress. Um, now okay, that's that's the southern wall. There are entrances around the sides, but you know, it is a really tough position to take. Um Foresters take it uh on in the on the morning of the 31st. In roughly what one and a half square kilometres on that map, they win seven major gallantry awards, um, three of which are one by one platoon. Um the Hampshire and and this is true of all of the battalions which are attacking here on the forest and on the um on the Gothic line. Um the the Leicestershire Regiment attacks on the left flank of the Foresters, the Hampshire Regiment attacks on the some Hampshire battalions attack on the right flank of the Foresters. Between the four assaulting battalions, um, there are something in the again in something in the order of 30 major gallantry wards, including a Victoria Cross. Um I have a bit of a bias on here. Um, if this was a Normandy Beach, we would have heard about that, but it's not a Normandy Beach, so it's been forgotten. But there are some incredible acts, both of bravery and of technical capability, taking this position um with us, and they don't actually take that many casualties taking this position. Um it is a remarkable achievement, and it's mostly done by the British infantry.

SPEAKER_00 39:59

Wow, yeah. Again, you know, not a lot of people hear about all this, do they? Because like you said, D-Day takes over. Yeah, I mean, at this point, you know, the German army's really stretched, isn't it? I mean, it's having a real slog infested in the East as well, as well as having to deal with the, you know, like you said, the Allied troops landing in Normandy, um, and of course losing all this ground in Italy. So they're really stretched at this point, I suppose.

SPEAKER_01 40:23

It is, and you and you can say, ah, yes, but you know, you're not fighting the top quality German troops, you're not fighting, you know, the SS divisions that were fighting in Normandy. Yeah, and that is true. I I accept that, but at the same time, you can only beat what's in front of you. Um and generally speaking, the Allies, you know, the Allied troops in Italy are successful in beating what's in front of them. The problem is that you never get that great breakthrough. And and really the problem with that is partly because they they are they they don't have the unlimited resources or relatively unlimited resources because they're all going into northwest Europe. Um, but also what we talked earlier about the fact that Italy is just a horrible place to fight. I mean, the the picture at the bottom there is in um mid to late September. That is, you know, the rains come down in September in Italy. It's a it's a an unusual month, I think. Um but the terrain the conditions in Italy when you have bad weather are just dreadful. You know, this is this is certainly the equivalent of Flanders mud. Um and unlike Northwest Europe, Italy doesn't have the uh transport infrastructure. You can again you can see on this map where are the roads. Frankly, there really aren't any. Um in some places they don't even there aren't even mule tracks. Um so the conditions and trying to fight a mechanised war under these circumstances, which is what the Allies are trying to fight, is incredibly difficult. And that has to be taken into account when you're considering the the difficulty of the military operations.

SPEAKER_00 41:59

Yes, okay. And why was the fighting in Italy so brutal for the infantry units? And again, that's pretty much you've answered the question there.

SPEAKER_01 42:07

You know, well, as I say, it's it's it's it's a combination of things. You you've you've got um you've got very difficult terrain, you've you've either got mountains or you've got river systems. Even when you get onto the Po Valley and onto the plains, it's there's there's a navigation ditch every few miles. The position on the picture on the on the um the left there is the scene of the forest's last uh action. Um it's a it's a it's a very small ditch in terms of width, but it's ten foot deep. You can't get a tank across that. And so all you need to do is blow up the bridges or crater the roads, and a lot of the Allied armour is just immobilised for any practical purposes until you can get the engineers up. Um, the Germans are very good at sighting anti-tank guns, they're very good at sighting tanks in concealed positions. Um they've they become very good at hit and run tactics with their artillery, you fire a few harassing rounds and then you pull them out before the overwhelming British bombardments and American bombardments can come down. As I say, let's let's be quite clear, the Germans are very, very good, even when they haven't got very much left. Um, and they make take full advantage of the um uh of the geographic and meteorical advantages that they get.

SPEAKER_00 43:31

Okay, Mike. So um obviously D-Day happens, and how so you know, how did the soldiers react um to the uh you know being labelled the D-Day Dodgers?

SPEAKER_01 43:43

Um well I I understand that one of the reactions was which D-Day? Um, because Normandy has hijacked the term D Day, every single amphibious landing had a D Day.

SPEAKER_00 43:54

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 43:55

Um but now if you talk about D Day, oh, that's Normandy.

SPEAKER_00 43:58

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 43:58

Um but There was a D-Day at Salerno, there was a D-Day at um uh in Sicily, there was a D-Day at Anzio, which we we we sort of didn't talk very much about Anzio. Um so you know, I think that there's certainly a feeling that you know lack of rec lack of recognition for their efforts is is certainly one potential um uh uh uh reaction. Um having said that, there's also you know it it's it is a morale boost in some ways because you know it's taking the war that stage further, and there is a feeling certainly that the war is coming to an end. You know, that we're one step we are we are gonna win this thing. Um but the problem then, of course, becomes okay, so we're gonna win this thing, we're a secondary theatre. Am I really gonna stick my neck out and get myself killed? Um, so there are a number of studies about morale in Italy um in the in the closing closing months of the war, and it is again it is a problem. Um I have to say that I've not got any direct because because I'm very focused on looking at a battalion-level history, and I had been very strict on myself, but I've not gone to other other areas to try and get um other first-hand accounts. Um the foresters leave Italy at the end of November 1944. Um, so they don't go for another Italian another Italian winter. They have an interesting winter somewhere else. Um so um so they probably they don't really have that that sort of final um if you like the morale thing about you know, is this all really worth it? Why am I why am I why am I sacrificing myself for um for, as I say, a sideshow if you'd like. Um so arguably they go to an even bigger sideshow and an even less well-recognized sideshow, which is Greece. Um, this is one of the few fixtures that I have of my father actually in uniform. That's in that's in Athens, I think in about February 1942. Um, not many people know this, but Greece is the only place that um British and well allied troops actually fight communist armed insurrection. The only um they fight they go to fight those guys at the bottom there who are Greek partisans who've kicked the Nazis out, um, but they're communist partisans, and they don't want the old uh royalist government to come back, which is what the British it support, who the British support. Um they want to take over the country and and uh and turn it into something like Bulgaria or Yugoslavia, a com a communist uh regime. Um so this is very much more like a peacekeeping mission. It's very much more like the sort of thing that we would do in modern times in Iran or Iraq or um or in um the former Yugoslavia. Um and it very much sets the tone for the Cold War. Um there is actual fighting, there is actual fighting in Athens, um, street fighting in Athens. Um the fighters are up in the north of Greece, where it is much more policing a policing operation. Um, but again, it's it I I I argue that this is actually uh one of the most important episodes because it why you know the the the whole strategy, particularly Churchill's strategy for the Mediterranean, was in part not only to defeat the Germans but in part to try and anticipate what the post-uh-war world was going to be like, and that standoff he you know he anticipated that standoff between uh the communists and and what would become NATO, the Western Allies. Um so I I actually argue that this is really the the start of the Cold War and a very important operation which we tend to have forgotten about.

SPEAKER_00 48:15

Yeah, I'd never even heard of it. I mean, I I I assumed the Germans were there, you know, and that's why they went there. I didn't know that it was because of the partisans. That's uh interesting, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 48:25

Well the Germ the Germans occupied Greece in 1941, um, and were that was quite a big problem for us because it blocked uh blocked um you know naval um transport through the Mediterranean. Um but yeah, in late 1944, um partly because of the partisans, but also to I you know because of pressure in Italy, the Germans have to move troops out of the Balkans into Italy, which means that Greece, Yugoslavia, and and other and these other Balkan countries are easier for the partisans to um to push the Germans out. So you were asking about we were saying that there is no decisive victory in Italy, but it has important repercussions. You know, the Italian campaign has important repercussions, which again I think people tend to forget about.

SPEAKER_00 49:11

Yeah, some really good points. Um, how important was the regimental pride, Mike?

SPEAKER_01 49:18

Um absolutely critical. Yeah, I mean we sort of touched on it a bit. Um I mean if you if you think about the the the war as a whole, so we talked about um we talked about the formation of the the recruitment for the for the um regiment, um that whole regional you know uh county lawyer uh county pride, county loyalty, that's very important in terms of trying to get people to enlist in 1939-1940. Um you know they um the the 2nd Battalion, which is the regular battalion, that does a number of sort of county fairs, if you like, uh around the county, um showing off you know the latest equipment and things like that. Um the Duke of Devonshire, who's the biggest landho landowner in the county, is very, very supportive of the regiment. Um there's a lot of call uh and um reference to the sacrifice that the regiment made in World War I and the casualties that they took in World War One. Um so that initial recruitment is very important. Um some of the regiments like we talked about the eighth forces who went to Norway. When the Eighth Forces actually turned into a um a training uh unit in 1942, but a lot of the men who fought in Norway, they the army is quite sensitive to this whole question, and a lot of the men who uh leave the 8th Battalion are sent to the 2nd 5th Battalion. So they k they they they are people are kept within the regiment. Um there's also if you are a good officer, you will try and instill your men with a sense of unit unit identity, unit pride, not just at the regimental level, but at the battalion level, at the company level, maybe even at the platoon level. Um, so things like competitive sports, um and even competition, you know, shooting competitions, all of these sort of things, um, they're immensely important in trying to um instill a sense of pride in your unit. Um, so this again is one of the things that when troops are out of the front line, it's very difficult to do it when you're in the front line, obviously for obvious reasons, but when you're out of the front line, one of the first things you try and do is to um is to get people um not training individually but training as a unit. And again, this was one of the big things um in Palestine, and it's also one of the big things in Greece because the expectation is that okay, you've you've got this policing operation in Greece, but eventually we're gonna go back and fight Germany again.

SPEAKER_00 52:04

Yeah, okay then. So by 1945, um, what kind of legacy would you say the uh Sherwood Forest had uh uh had earned at that point?

SPEAKER_01 52:16

Um I I'm not sure what the I'm not sure how I'd answer that question in some ways. I mean I I I close my my the second volume of the book, which is not published yet, it's gonna come out in June, um which is really covering the Italian campaign. Um I I I'm I'm not gonna try and pretend that you know this is an elite unit. And I and in some respects that's the whole point of the book, is that you know we we spend a lot of time focused on the paratroops or the commandos and people like that who are elite units, they are incredibly highly trained, incredibly capable, um, but they're not the average British soldier. The average British soldier is the people in the county is the is the chap in the county regiment. Um and some of the things they do and some of the things they're called on to do are no less extraordinary. Um I will give you one example and it touches on a couple of things we've talked about. At um at um the the the Gothic line, um one of the platoons is pinned down. Um it's only got three bands of ammunition left, and it's pinned down by a machine gun in a house. A lad volunteers to go and take this machine gun out. He's he's not yet 20 years old. Uh no, sorry, he's twenty he is twenty years old. Um he is just short of his 21st birthday. Um and he goes forward and he and he does take out the machine gun, he kills one German and he captures two others, I think it is. Um he wins the military medal, and his military medal citation says that he does this with a bayonet. There is an account in the in the archive that I told you about by his platoon commander. His platoon commander says he did it with a pocket knife. Now, that is he he is not a paratrooper, he's not a member of the SAS, he's not a commando, he is a 20-year-old heavy metal worker from Chesterfield. He is an ordinary person, and he will never talk about that to his family. How can you?

SPEAKER_00 54:23

So incredibly brave.

SPEAKER_01 54:26

It's incredibly brave, but at the same time, it is incredibly brutal. You know, it is a you know a and and I can't, I I can't comprehend it. And he does this, you you you know, people ask why do men why do men fight? He does this essentially because he wants to preserve his life and the life of his mates in his platoon. It is about that, you know, it is at the end of the day, a lot of um the reason that people fight is not for the country, not for some ideological reason, but because it's about you and your mates and keeping your mates alive.

SPEAKER_00 55:03

Yeah. And that's something you see in most wars, I think.

SPEAKER_01 55:06

It is, absolutely, absolutely, every war. It's it's it's true of it it is true of the um uh of every army, of every army uh and every war. The one thing that almost everybody in the battalion talks about, and and I'm gonna say, I'm gonna sort of say the legacy of the regiment of the battalion to me is it's is its veterans. Um the one thing that they all talk about is that intense male companionship, because you know you have to trust some of these other people in the in the unit with your life effect effectively.

SPEAKER_00 55:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 55:45

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 55:46

So no brilliant answer, thank you. Um okay, let's talk about peace time. And uh so they uh they end up um doing some peace missions, I believe.

SPEAKER_01 56:01

Yeah, so so again, so because they've they they they go back to Italy, but they never actually fight again in Italy. Um because the war basically outruns them. They're they're they're heading up north through Italy when um the German troops in Italy surrender. They they surrender on the 2nd of May, which is a few days before the official uh VE day. Um they go into the army, they go into Austria as an army of occupation. Um Austria again is a strange post-war environment. Uh Austria was part of the Third Reich, but it's considered to be the first of Hitler's victims because Hitler took Austria over in 1938. Um, but there are Nazis in Austria, and there is a there is a level of denazification which has to take place. Um, there are huge numbers of troops, of German troops that have to be disarmed and mounted up. There are huge numbers of displaced persons. So these are these are not refugees in the sense that we see them these days, where they've been bombed out of their houses. These are people that have been transferred across Europe in order to go and work for the Nazis. Um, so people from France, people from Italy, people from all sorts of places, Poland, um, you know, they they they're working in German and Austrian factories. Um, so all of these things have to be considered. It's a it's an administrative nightmare, frankly. Um, there's another big complication, or two big complications in Austria because of what we talked about the Cold War. Um, back in 1945, um, you now have a nice, clear, distinct border between Austria and Slovenia. Um, the populations back in 1945 are actually quite intermixed. Um, there were Slovenians living in southern Austria, there are Germans living in northern Slovenia. Um, the Yugoslavs don't want Germans in their country anymore, but they would quite like those bits of Austria which have got Slovenes in them. Um so there's a lot of tension with the Yugoslav with the with Tito's Yugoslav partisans. Um there are some 30,000 Russians who were fighting for Hitler. These are Cossacks. So you can say, well, they were fighting for Cossack independence, but they've been fighting with the SS. And they are rounded up and handed over to the Soviet to the Red Army. Um it's post post-war it was very controv it became very controversial because effectively you're handing these people over pretty much to their deaths. They would have ended up either being executed straight away or going off to the gulag. Um but it's I I I it was a very efficiently carried out operation from the virus's point of view, um, but it was also something which people said was one of the most distasteful things they ever did. Um I think most people realize that the fate of these men was not going to be good. Um and eventually um the battalion is um is wound down. Um one of the reasons one one of the comments again that people make about the Cossacks is yeah, it was really distasteful, but frankly, we were fed up with war and we just wanted to go home. You can really sort of imagine that. Um the battalion uh the the main concern of most of the men in the battalion by the second half of 1945 is when am I going to get demobilised? And gradually the battalion, the people in the battalion are demobilised. Um, the battalion finishes off in uh southern Syria. That picture on the bottom right is on the uh Austrian-Yugoslav border. Um, it's probably the last photograph that was ever taken of pictures of men in the battalion. Um, by that time, there's about 400 men in the men and about 20 officers, and less than half of those people had actually fought in the war. So again, you uh the battalion is continually changing. We we sometimes I think in military history we tend to think of battalions as chess pieces, but they're not, they are living organisms. Um, which is why I subtitled my book The Biography of a Battalion, because although there were lots of characters in the book, the real character is the battalion itself and how it changes and how it develops.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:50

Yeah, fantastic. And again, I think people forget that you know they think that World War II finishes after uh, you know, D Day, not D Day, sorry, um VE Day on May the 8th, but technically it doesn't, does it? It's gonna go on for ages to get all this, like you said, you know, people displaced people and everything's been destroyed, and everything that everyone knows is just never gonna be the same again. And so, you know, I don't know what I can't imagine what it's like for these guys being sitting there waiting to be told to go home, you know.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:22

Oh, yeah, no, absolutely, and and and again, you you know, we've talked we've touched on morale in various different circumstances, but morale again is a big problem, you know. Uh yeah, we we have this term demob happy, and that really is the problem. You know, if you're going to be demobilized in a month's time, what's the point of obeying orders? What's the point of army discipline anymore? Um, and interesting enough, one of the again, I said one of the things I've tried to do is to look at some of the what to many people would be rather boring records like casualty lists and things. One of the things I looked at was um court-martials, and there are an extraordinary number of court-martials immediately post-war, more than there are during the war itself. And some of these people who are court-martialed are people who've won gallantry medals, but then they get court-martialed for talking back to an officer or firing a weapon. Uh there's one guy who um who uh demonstrates a captured Italian semi-automatic pistol um by shooting it out of a window, and he gets court-martialed for sort of disendangement of personnel. Um, but these are as I say, the you know, there are there's a military medal winner who is court-martialed um for going AWOL, I think it is. You know, so so discipline again is a a and and morale in the post-war world. Uh you know, it it it's it's another problem for the officers to um to have to think about and the army to have to think about. And it is something they do think about very strongly, you know. How do we how do we prepare these men for peace? Is actually a question that the army does ask itself in terms of the training programme and things like that that it uh that it gives to people. Fantastic.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:14

Okay, well, let's talk about yourself, Mike, because like you said, you've uh you've done two books and then volume two is coming out on uh June the 30th. Um but tell us about your so when did the first one come out, Mike?

SPEAKER_01 1:03:25

So the first volume uh came out at the end of uh November. Um so the first volume takes the battalion from its its birth, which is basically the end of March 1939, through to the end of the Tunisian campaign. Um and then the second volume um starts it uh starts with um Salerno, and it takes it through to what we've talked about, the the post-war uh period, and also the story of some of the people you know in later life. Um I mentioned this archive, um there's a uh the the uh secretary of the association is a man called Wadi Bench, and in the 70s, 80s he started to get um the these veterans together, and they went out uh they got together in you know reunions in pubs and then uh you know dinner dances and things like that. But he also took them over to back to the places where they'd fought. Um so incredible collection of reminiscences uh without which I wouldn't have been able to write this. Um so I I think I feel that in part I should almost have put him as a co-author on some of this. Um but um yeah, so that so there's there's a lot, there's the there's a sort of a coder, if you like, to what did you know, what did these people do after the war and what impact did the war have on them as well. Um so the two books, um, and I think it's they are sort of standalone, so you can just read the first one if you if you've got um ancestors you uh or or your interest is in North Africa, um, you're not so interested in the Italian campaign. The Italian the Italian book does sort of have a very brief introduction which talks about the battalion, you know, uh the battalion up to uh the landing in um Salona. So if again if you if your uh ancestors fought or your relatives fought just in Italy, you you you you you have the option of just um buying the second volume. But I would hope that a lot of people might might give both volumes a chance because I think it did it then gives you that complete story which we've talked about end-to-end, um, in terms of what was it like throughout the war for an ordinary infantry battalion. Yeah, brilliant. Um the website um Sherwoodboys.co.uk, there's there's various material on the website which is sort of additional to the book. So there's a lot of photographs of uh members of the battalion. Um there's some additional stuff on some of the uh the battles in terms of orders of battle and maps. And there's also um there's a there's a a lot of very detailed notes, which I felt were too intrusive to go into the books, but if people really want to follow up and understand where some of the information comes from in the book, um there are some there are some much more detailed notes on the website as well. And I've also got uh as you've also got on there, um I've got a Facebook page uh on which I post um little short stories, and these is about the individu really about the individuals. So on the anniversary of significant effect of events, I will post a little story about an individual in the battalion. Um I've got quite a lot of people who are associated with the regiment or again whose relatives uh served in the war um who are following me, following me on there. So I'm slowly building up a small following on there. And I would welcome anybody to um to have a look and follow it. Uh you can it's also um if you've got any questions uh on our throat, you can contact me through either of those two, either the website or the or the Facebook page. Well, thank you.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:12

And I'll make sure there is a link in the podcast description, so don't worry about that. But um all that is left to say at this point, Mike, is uh you know, thank you very much for coming on and telling us about the Sherwoods boys. And uh, you know, thank you so much. It was a fascinating topic to uh to uh listen to and uh to learn about. So thank you very much.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:32

Yeah, thank you for very much for giving me that uh that opportunity. Oh, I could uh I believe you have some uh American listeners, so I could add one little American angle on this, is that as one does these days, um when you're doing this research, you you go on Google, don't you? And you Google Sherwood Foresters. Um and I discovered there's a reenactment group for the Shepherd Foresters, specifically for the 5th Battalion of the Shepherd Foresters. Nice. And they are based in Memphis, Tennessee.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:03

Oh, I wasn't expecting that. What are you gonna say the UK? Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:09

So if there's anybody in the Memphis area, um get in touch with these guys. They're really they're they're really good. There's a little there's a little blog on my website about them. Um so yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:19

So have they all joined your Facebook group? I'm not sure if they have yet, but um well they need to. I'm telling them. I think they ought to, yeah. Yeah, definitely. But uh honestly, Mike, all that is left to say at this point, mate, is thanks and cheers. Thank you very much, Ness.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:36

Thanks for your time.