The Battle Of Cross Keys with (Aaron Siever)

The Battle Of Cross Keys with (Aaron Siever)

in this episode of the American Civil War & UK History podcast, host Daz was joined by historian and battlefield tour guide Aaron Siever of Aaron’s Civil War Travels to discuss the Battle of Cross Keys.

The Battle of Cross Keys was fought in Rockingham County, Virginia, as part of Confederate Maj. Gen. Thomas J. “Stonewall” Jackson’s legendary Shenandoah Valley Campaign during the American Civil War.

The battle saw Jackson’s forces clash with Union troops under Maj. Gen. John C. Frémont. Together with the Confederate victory at Port Republic the following day, Cross Keys marked the decisive triumph of Jackson’s Valley Campaign — forcing Union armies to retreat and allowing Jackson to move his army east to reinforce Gen. Robert E. Lee ahead of the Seven Days Battles outside Richmond.

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Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

To keep up to date with everything American Civil War and UK history, head over to our website ACW and UKhistory.com. And remember, this podcast has a PowerPoint presentation that goes along with the show. So if you would like to see the PowerPoint presentation, then head over to our YouTube channel at American Civil War and UK History. Cheers. Hello everyone, I'm Daz and welcome to American Civil War and UK History Podcast. This presentation is available as a video on our YouTube channel or as a podcast from wherever you get your podcast from. And if you're watching on YouTube, remember to hit the subscribe button and give us a big thumbs up. And check out our website at www.acwandukhistory.com where you'll find uh podcast, blog posts, and links to all of our social media pages. Uh the link is also available in the podcast description. Joining me today is Aaron Seaver. Welcome, Aaron. Thank you. And uh sorry for butchering your name there. I do apologize.

SPEAKER_01 0:57

Oh, it's alright. Something are a lot worse.

SPEAKER_00 1:00

Okay, fair enough. So before we get into the battle, Aaron, I want to know first, because it's your first time on American Civil War and UK history, how you f first became interested in history. Um, more importantly, Civil War history.

SPEAKER_01 1:14

So it it started when I was a child. Um my mom was a big she got into genealogy, you know, going around different places. Uh my dad was into World War II, but we had a big uh Harper's Weekly pictorial history book that they got at a thrift store or something. And so I ended up uh I would open that thing up and start just looking through it. I didn't understand half of what was in there, probably even a quarter of what was in there, uh, because I was really young, but you know, pictures were interesting. Uh and then I just I just fell in love with the Civil War. Um started, you know, watching, I watched Gettysburg, uh, the blue and the gray, all those. Uh in the fifth grade, I actually have a a copy of it. Um, my report card, my fifth grade teacher said that if I did as much work in science and math and all that as I did studying the Civil War, then I'd be an all-star student. Obviously, uh, I just kept with the Civil War part and ignored the math and science. Yeah, so didn't we all?

SPEAKER_00 2:26

Yeah, there's not no there's no harm in that, mate.

SPEAKER_01 2:29

Nah.

SPEAKER_00 2:30

So basically that's it then, really. So yeah, that's cool.

SPEAKER_01 2:34

That was since then, it just it's just been a passion since I was little.

SPEAKER_00 2:38

There you go. Excellent, thank you, Aaron. Um, okay, so we are gonna be discussing uh the uh battle of um cross keys in this episode. Um, of course, there's a huge of uh Stonewall Jackson's Valley campaign, as it's known in 1962, which starts in March and and sort of ends sort of towards the uh towards the beginning of June, doesn't it, of 1862? But so Aaron, first would you like to give us um you know an overview of the campaign as a whole before we get to cross keys, if you wouldn't mind, please.

SPEAKER_01 3:12

Yeah, absolutely. So I kind of almost go back to 1861 as the start of the valley campaign in a way, uh, because there's not a lot happening. Uh you have you know Stonewall Jackson, he gets that famous name at at Manassas. Uh he gets put in the command of the valley in November of 1861. And from there, he will uh start moving uh around. He'll attack dam number five just a month later uh near the Potomac River. And then into January of 1862, he's gonna make an expedition out to Romney. And then we do get to March. Uh and in March, uh March 23rd is the first battle of Kearnstown, just outside of Winchester. And what ended up happening is he got some bad information from his cavalry leader, uh Turner Ashby, just misguided info, he attacks, and although it is a loss for Jackson, it does show his aggressiveness or continued aggressiveness. Like I said, he's been aggressive since 1861. And so with that, it starts to make the Union government look at the Shenandoah Valley as more of a not the primary uh theater, but a primary theater. You have McClellan down on the peninsula moving up toward Richmond. So something has to be happening here in the backyard of DC, and and that's why Jackson starts moving around. But after after Kearnstown, he's gonna retreat all the way down past the city of Harrisburg, actually past where I'm at here in Newmarket, uh, all the way almost into Augusta County. He'll go to uh the little little town of Port Republic, and then just outside of there, um, I'm sorry, he'll go to the town of Elkon. It was called Conrad's store at the time. And from there, he will uh communicate with Robert E. Lee. Uh of course, Johnston is still in control of the Confederate Army at that time, but they've moved down toward the peninsula. And so they're coming up with plans to create a diversion, draw Union troops away from McClellan. And Jackson's got a couple options. Uh by retreating all the way down or all the way up the valley to uh Elkton, he can strike Nathaniel P. Banks, who is in Harrisonburg, about 12 miles from him. He can cross the Blue Ridge and go to the assistance of Johnston, or he can link up with Allegheny Johnson, Edward Allegheny Johnson, west of Stanton, Virginia, and attack a force under John C. Fremont. There's a small outpost there in the town of McDowell. And so Lee leaves it up to leaves it up to Jackson at that point and says, you you pick the one that you want to do that you think is going to be the most fruitful. On top of that, he is also going to get the assistance of General Richard Yule and his small army that was on the east side of the Blue Ridge. And uh some of my favorite stories come out of that march where Jackson will meet with Yule briefly. Uh, he really will not tell Yule what's going on. He just says, we're marching out, we're going west. Uh he will then head out to meet Allegheny Johnston or Johnson. And as Yule comes in, he'll come into Elkton to occupy the camps of the of Jackson's men, still thinking Jackson might be there. He gets in the camps and they're gone. The camps are still warm. I mean, the fires are still, you know, there's still embers and everything, but Jackson's men are gone. And uh at one point, Yule will just call him a crazy Presbyterian uh because he has no clue what Jackson's doing. He thinks he's crazy. He'll comment about him going to McDowell. He's just up in the mountains doing whatever. But Jackson will make it out to McDowell with Johnson's men, and that is in uh Highland County, Virginia, near West Virginia, uh against the Appalachian Mountains. And on May 8th, there will be a battle there. Uh, it will be a Confederate victory, uh, although I will say that the Union Army does its job there. Uh you actually have Robert H. Milroy in command there uh under Fremont. Fremont's actually back in Franklin, Virginia, now West Virginia. And he gets with his direct commander, Robert Shank, and he says, you know, let's make a spoiling attack. Let's a reconnaissance in force because we're over, we're outnumbered. And if Jackson gets artillery up on this hill known as Sittlington's Hill, we're gonna have a very rough time. So they actually attack. Uh the Confederates will suffer more losses uh based on their position, but they will hold the battlefield at the end. And then Jackson will chase uh Milroy and Shank all the way to Fremont at Franklin before turning around and coming back into the Chandler Valley proper. From May 8th, or after that, he will uh begin to make movements toward Front Royal, Virginia. He'll cross the Mass Luton Mountain. He'll actually come right, probably would have walked right by my window. My house wasn't here at the time, but would have walked right here at the Valley Pike and went up over through Newmarket Gap, which I can see out my window, and headed toward Front Royal. Uh there's a small force there under Nathaniel Banks. Uh it's an outpost uh under John Kinley, uh, who's directly under Banks. And Jackson will attack them uh in late May. And as he does, it's May 23rd, as he does so, it takes a little bit longer than it should. Um, but but he he beats them back, takes the town, and is now on the flank of Nathaniel P. Banks' men who are marching from Strasbourg to Winchester. At this time, Jackson now has an overwhelming force. Uh, he had started out at Kearnstown, he had you know 3,500 men, uh maybe a little bit more than that, but by the time we get to what we're about to talk, the first battle of Winchester, he is up to 14 to 17,000 men. Of course, straggling will keep that number down some. But he's got a large force now. He will then, after Front Royal, he'll advance on Winchester, and the Confederates will take Winchester on May 25th. After that, uh, that'll push Banks back across the Potomac River, and Jackson will actually move up toward the Potomac as well. The goal was Lee even tells him if you can move across the Potomac, do so. And so as he's uh moving that way, he's gonna get some information that John C. Fremont, who was still in Western Virginia, and now James Shields, who had been dispatched away from uh the valley toward Richmond, are both coming at him. And he's gonna have to turn around and head south or up the Shenandoah Valley. The reason he has to do that is because he doesn't want to get caught by those two units. And and what he does, I think, is is really impressive. Uh he's known for force marches, or his infantry is called Jackson's Foot Cavalry for a reason. Uh they're going to do more than 600 miles in a couple months and you know fight five major battles. As they're moving south, both those Union armies actually can pinch him at the town of Strasbourg just south of Winchester. They can come in and slam into him. But the fact that they don't kind of shows what Jack Jackson doesn't stop. He just keeps going. And it's a lost opportunity for the Union Army or armies. It also puts the Mass Nutton Mountain in the way of both of these units. Jackson will, as he's retreating, will stay on the east side of the Massuton Mountain, which splits the Shenandoah Valley, uh, really from Harrisonburg up to Front Royal. And there's only two gaps to cross there. One's at Front Royal, and the next one is here at Newmarket. And he had been burning bridges and things prior to that. Uh so as he's coming back, he'll come back into Lou Ray, he'll start back down this way toward Newmarket, and he'll stay across the mountain, though. In the meantime, John C. Fremont will come in from the west, he will be over toward Harrisonburg in the uh eastern side of the Shenandoah Valley, or I'm sorry, western side of the Shenandoah Valley, west of the Mass Nutton Mountain. And James Shields, when he comes into the valley, will now be pursuing Jackson up the Shenandoah Valley on the east side of Mass Nutton Mountain. And so what Jackson does is he stays ahead of them and he burns the bridges. Rain certainly helps as the river gets high. And his point in doing that is to keep these two forces from joining. If they join at Newmarket, he's outnumbered vastly. He'll get past that, he'll burn the bridge over uh over the Shenandoah, the White House Bridge, and several other bridges in Page County, which makes SHIELDS have to continue following him on that east side of the mountain. Then when he gets down to Port Republic, um he'll dispatch General Yule out toward Harrisonburg and the cavalry as well. And this is the beginning of June, uh, first you know, week and a half. So June 6th, the Confederate Cavalry under Colonel Ashby is going to have an engagement at Harrisonburg, uh, which is from Port Republic, is maybe six, seven miles, something like that. Um, and from Cross Keys, even even closer. They'll have an engagement there. Ashby will be killed during that engagement, uh, which is going to wreak a little havoc on there on the Calvary. Uh, but Yule will find a great defensive position at Cross Keys. And uh so that's where we're at now, June 8th, 1862. Richard Yule and uh the Confederates are at Cross Keys.

SPEAKER_00 14:22

Excellent. Thank you, Aaron. And can I just ask, how much of a factor is it for Jackson? Because of course, this is where he was living, you know, and living his life before the war. So does that factor into to you know the way he feels about the Shenandoah Valley, or does it he it definitely does.

SPEAKER_01 14:39

Um, you know, he he lived in Lexington down at BMI, and uh which is just south of Stanton, not very far. You can see it on the map there. Um and and one of the quotes that he says is if this valley is lost, Virginia is lost. This is a a backdoor to Washington, an invasion route, a supply chain. I mean, there's so much here in the Shenandoah Valley that really does make it more of a primary theater than it than it got credit for uh for a long time. And him being here defending this valley, uh, several of the men that are with him are from the Shenandoah Valley.

SPEAKER_00 15:19

So very big deal for them. Yeah, so they're protecting their homes. And and it's also referred to, isn't it, later on in 64, the breadbasket of the Confederacy, which is where their food's coming from. So, you know, if you've got guys that are you know from those towns, they're gonna do everything they can to protect it, aren't they? You know, absolutely, yeah, absolutely. Fantastic explanation, though. Thank you for that, mate. Um, okay, as you said, you did mention Yule, and uh for some reason every time I think of it, I just think of that Christmas uh, you know, the Yule log. Yeah, that's the one I know exactly what I don't know why, you know, but it just comes ever so when I've got his picture of that's all I can think of because it just comes up during Christmas, doesn't it? But anyway, we have everywhere. Yeah, we have obviously Yule, we have um, as you said, um sorry, you can't remember the free monster and Jackson. So, how involved is Jackson in this actual battle, or is he more like you said, further up the road? Is he involved in the tactical side of things of this battle or not?

SPEAKER_01 16:20

He actually is not. Uh, this is one of the rare cases where he's gonna leave his subordinate alone. Uh, he will come to the battlefield, but he will not go on the main battlefield part. He won't go look at the dispositions or anything like that. Uh, one of Yule's staff officers will actually meet Jackson just past Mill Creek Church, and that's as far as he goes, which is not uh really even, he's behind what's known as Artillery Ridge. And he'll talk to that staff officer, and the staff officer will tell him the dispositions, says, hey, this is this is what General Yule has done. Jackson says, very good, back to Port Republic he goes. Uh, so he he is not actually even present during the actual battle. He will head back down to Port Republic. Um, and there is a little caveat to that. I I think, you know, yes, we have this huge campaign, but earlier uh that that same day, uh, he is going to escape capture in the town of Port Republic uh by Union troops from SHIELDS Men who cross because the cavalry is not picketing as they should be. They're distraught after the death of Ashby. And so he's already had a pretty rough morning. So I think by the time he gets up there to cross Keys, here's about you know what Yule's got. Doesn't even talk to Yule and just says, Yeah, we're good. You know, he knows Yule's Yule's goal is just to stop Fremont.

SPEAKER_00 17:52

Okay, excellent. Yeah, I was gonna ask what what is the objectives of Yule and uh how does he handle this battle? And take us through the um the battle and how how also does the terrain um play into the factor of this because it's uh it's it um you know the terrain's uh fairly difficult. Is it is that right? Would that be right now?

SPEAKER_01 18:13

There's a lot of hills here. Um you can see the Confederate line, Elzy's troops, uh Latimere, all those you can see the artillery setup there. Uh it's called the Maryland line as well, with Stewart, uh that's Maryland troops. And that hillside is occupied by a lot of Confederate artillery. The Union troops who have to march across, when they you can see Union Church, that's actually where the battle starts. The 15th Alabama is in the cemetery, which is still there today. They're in the cemetery and they begin exchanging fire with the Union troops that are advancing uh toward the Confederate position. Now, as those Union troops are coming across, there those are troops under Milroy and Shank and a few others, but Milroy and Shank have been in battle with Jackson. They fought him at McDowell. So they're they're a little familiar, they're very good troops, uh, very hard-fighting troops. And so they're the ones that are going to be tasked with assaulting this Confederate juggernaut of a of a uh artillery position. And of course, it's cleared in front of the men, the guns, so they have a great field of fire. There's several ridges that the Federals have to come across just to get to Artillery Ridge. And they're not massive ridges, but the way they slope makes it very difficult to see. Uh, and there's another part of the battle where we'll we'll see that uh with the 8th New York. But in this particular part, uh, as the Federals are moving, they push the 15th Alabama back. And uh for anyone that ever wants to just tour the battlefield, I mean, there's signs, there's all that. If you can get a map and look at the 15th Alabama, they literally are on every part of this battlefield. They move everywhere uh that day. Why? I'm not exactly sure why they're everywhere, but they are. Um but the Federals will come up and they're kind of stopped by this creek, and they and the the amount of artillery that is coming down on them just makes it so difficult for them to come up the ridge. There are also rifle pits at the bottom of the ridge and which the Confederates are occupying, and so they're under small small arms fire as well, and that portion of the battle uh will rage for a good while, uh, pretty much the whole time until Fremont says we're gonna retreat, but they're never able to really get up to the Confederate position. Now, the terrain again plays an important role there. But if you look over, you'll see uh a little bit here, you can see uh Trimble's uh men there. Trimble is also on Artillery Ridge, but where it shows the pine woods here on the uh just across Port Republic Road, that ridge starts to really go down. And so ahead of him, he will see another ridge called Schoolhouse Ridge. And he will, uh I'm sorry, Victory Hill, uh, he will want to move his men out there. He'll actually talk to Yule about it, and Yule will say, Yeah, go ahead and move your men out there. That's fine. It's a little bit higher than where he was on artillery ridge. So he's almost created, almost like a sailant, um, but it's it's a good position. And it's a hidden position. He's actually gonna set up about sixteen hundred men behind a fence line. And so uh the terrain plays an important part there. As if he'd have stayed back farther, he's actually going to be uh uh the Union Army would have the advantage. So by him moving, it helps the Confederate line. And and the line instead of being straight kind of almost does a kind of a curve um look. And then there on the right hand side there will be a you know the right flank uh there will be more Confederate troops. But the battle really progresses in three kind of three ways. You have the attack there at Artillery Ridge and Mill Creek Ridge as well is what it's also known as. Then you'll have you have the issue that happens with Trimble as he moves up to Victory Hill and he will fight the 8th New York there and then we'll have the right flank. And it it kind of all goes in that order. So what happens after you know the attacks on Artillery Ridge aren't aren't working they move in to where Trimble's at the 8th New York is marching and they're of German descent. Most of them speak German. They're singing they're laughing they have no skirmishers out they have nobody flanking their unit they're just marching up and they will march up like a clover field on it's just a little ridge. Unfortunately for them on top of that ridge is that fence line where Trimble's 1600 uh muskets are and so as they walk up they're going to come under a devastating fire in which the unit pretty much ceases to exist. It will still be in existence but there is going to be a lot of death um in in just a matter of minutes. And one of the Confederates said it just looked like a field of blackbirds laying out there because of the dark uniforms in the clover field. And I've taken people there uh on tour and you can stand at the fence line and I will go over and actually come up the ridge toward them and they can see me well before I see them and then I will turn around and have them do it to give them that idea of what these men are seeing. If you are the New Yorkers you're not able to see the Confederates until you top that ridge but the Confederates can see you. And it just has to do with the terrain it's a great position and unfortunately for them a devastating position. There was a rumor that their direct leader may have been or at least a couple men said that he may have been drunk. It seems whenever anything goes wrong everybody's always drunk but uh that that is a very big possibility uh as again no dispositions are made to protect them against a possible Confederate advance or anything. And part of it I think they may have thought Tremble was farther back and so they maybe they thought they had time to deploy or or whatnot but uh that doesn't happen for them.

SPEAKER_00 24:59

Can I just ask so obviously I don't know too much about Fremont uh John Fremont so what kind of general was he and was he up for the job because you you see this reoccurring theme in the first few years especially in the Eastern Theatre I mean the Western theatre is a different story as we know but you know you you you see this bad generalship on the union side uh badly trained I mean not not so particularly with uh obviously McClellan's men are trained really well and well equipped but you know different pockets of different parts of the Union army are not that well trained or what what's what's the issue with with them you know so so Fremont is a political general um he is appointed purely based on politics uh and the driving force behind him is actually his wife uh he is known as the Pathfinder he had uh found a route through the I believe it was the Rocky Mountains toured California earlier uh you know in his life and uh he's had political aspirations he ran for the Republican ticket um he he's he's got presidential aspirations and so but to have an ally like that he's also got a lot of people that follow him and so he is made a general and he actually starts out in the West in Missouri and doesn't do too well there uh he is reassigned to the western uh Virginia area and really doesn't do too well there either uh this battle he's got some good generals under him he's got Milroy who is a very aggressive general a little bit later in the war there's a few mishaps with him but he's a very aggressive general and Fremont's very timid uh he is not gonna rush into things and I he just doesn't do his dispositions correctly um he's just not I want to say I mean it takes a lot to be a general whether you're politically appointed or not to lead men you still have to have some some sort of smarts to you um but I I haven't found much where John C.

SPEAKER_01 27:16

Fremont really does a good job especially in this campaign. He's his men are not super fond of him. And there's again there's a lot of newer troops most of these troops that are under him haven't fought in uh in the valley or any major battles other than those under Milroy and Shank. They have fought quite a bit and they fought at uh Camp Allegheny in 1861 as well so he's he's got a lot of inexperienced men and I think it kind of shows with some of the dispositions that he makes.

SPEAKER_00 27:51

And again that's not their fault is it but again you I mean you know a lot of the Confederate generals West Pointers aren't they so York Jackson you know so they've got that military background a lot of them fought in the Mexican War you know a lot of these political generals again they don't really have the training or the knowledge to really do their job so I suppose that's why you get this situation.

SPEAKER_01 28:14

But yeah no it's very interesting okay so quite early in the war that happens a lot yeah of course I mean even a little bit later on as you know and at the Battle of Newmarket we get a with a certain uh uh German general um but um so okay tell us how the battle's gonna come to its climax and and how the Confederates are going to defeat the Union uh army on this uh battlefield so the best opportunity that the Union army will have will be on the Confederate right flank uh what ends up happening is the Confederates uh they have a good position but just below Trimble there is a ravine it will actually be known as Trimble's Ravine after the battle but the Confederates are a bit exposed on that right flank it's not really anchored down and the Federals that come out uh some Pennsylvanians and I believe a few New Yorkers will come out and they will actually do one heck of a job at starting to push that right flank back. In the meantime after the what's known as the slaughter of the 8th New York Trimble's men have kind of moved out there's an artillery battery that is just hammering the Confederate line and so Trimble will move out and actually engage the Pennsylvania bucktails and then he will move down into that ravine and as the Federals are coming across his timely uh arrival in that ravine is what's going to kind of turn the tide on the right hand side before that uh Walker who is in command out on the right is getting beaten back um and it it's looking it's almost looking pretty bad for him again this is terrain makes a big deal here is this is a lower part of the battlefield but with Trimble able to come in they will do a final flank attack which will push the Federalists back and that's pretty much going to end the battle uh of course again the 15th Alabama you can see it here 15th Alabama after crossing the valley it's uh I think their letter B on the map here they are they start out at Union Church they go to artillery ridge they will be over there with Tremble for the 8th New York uh debacle and then they'll end up on the right flank uh so these guys are everywhere and and they're an integral part of pushing that federal force back um the battle's kind of going to go to a lull at that point there there will still be some intermittent artillery firing some skirmishing but the major fighting is over and Yule has accomplished what he set out to do which was stop Fremont to let Jackson make dispositions in Port Republic and get ready for James Shields who's coming uh from the Elkton area Trimble actually will uh go to Yule after this his danders up and and Trimble's an older fella he was a railroad worker um he uh you know I I like uh the movie Gods in general is they give a description you know they show uh Trimble in there and he's just kind of kind of goofy not really goofy but this kind of he's a hard guy um and he's he's making this speech you know about getting on the train but it's it's just the way he comes across uh the actor that played him did really well and then you see him in Gettysburg and he has that that point with Lee where he's asking for a regiment and a brigade and all this to charge Colts Hill. It just shows his tenacity.

SPEAKER_00 31:58

So he's going to go to Richard Yule at the end of this battle and he's gonna say hey let's attack let's take the whole army let's go and Yule says no and it's almost like that movie you know part in Gettysburg where he keeps asking he's like well let me let me take these guys he's no our job is to defend this spot and then we're gonna move out toward Jackson and so finally Yule will say okay you can take your men your your brigades you attack the rest of the armies going to Port Republic at that point Trimble will say okay I you know what you're probably right so I'm gonna go with you guys uh so he never makes that attack uh but it's one of my favorite stories of him where he's you know it just shows that tenacity of an old Marylander uh ready to fight at the drop of a hat fantastic fantastic explanation as well yeah really good um okay so let's obviously look like you just explained it is a victory for the Confederate army but there's something else going on on the peninsula like we mentioned so how how how is the victory and this Jackson's success in the valley gonna influence uh Robert E. Lee in the coming Seven Days battle which are literally round the corner.

SPEAKER_01 33:18

Yes yeah literally around the corner uh it it's gonna bolster the Confederate morale uh at this point but right before Lee you know Lee will take over at the end of May beginning of June so we're right Lee's just gotten into that full command um and the Confederacy needs at that point they need something uh they are getting beaten you know forts Henry and Donaldson fell Nashville's fallen in the east McClellan's marching on Richmond and he's at the doorstep of Richmond at the end of May and so Jackson's Valley campaign will boost that Confederate morale and he almost becomes like a deity in some in some ways of how you know Jackson's gonna end up with you um he's gonna he's gonna come around your flank you never know where he's gonna be and that'll play into McClellan psyche as well because he's gonna eventually find out that Jackson will be marching toward uh Robert E. Lee to help him and that's that's more troops he doesn't know where Jackson's gonna come out at um and so it slows Union plans down a little bit as well plus all the they dispatched more than 5000 troops into the Shenandoah Valley to combat Jackson's at most 1700 that's a large number to be taken away uh from a general who already thinks he's outnumbered.

SPEAKER_00 34:47

So it plays havoc on that but for Lee it it's going to bolster his command he at this point before you know the seven days are not great for Jackson but Lee's thinking I've got another capable commander here that I can I can put in he's already got Longstreet and he's he's learned already that Longstreet is is a hammer and the finesse could be Jackson of course we'll see a little bit later that that doesn't quite work out the seven days um but here in the Valley uh you know he is uh even today he's still very highly regarded uh for for what was done here in the Shenandoah Valley yeah and what about Washington what what what are they thinking at this point are they getting concerned obviously with this you know obviously that we know obviously like you said McClellan's on the doorstep of Richmond at this point but you know with what's going on in the valley and the proximity to DC they must have been concerned at this point.

SPEAKER_01 35:47

Yeah um I think you know Abraham Lincoln gets kind of a bad rap for being too concerned about it. I don't think his concern really comes up until Jackson beats Banks at Winchester and goes to the banks of the Potomac because at that point he's mere miles from DC it's not very far he's actually closer than I think McClellan will be about that time. And so that definitely changes things. And you also have the the issue where McClellan gave his dispositions of protecting DC and Lincoln and Stanton did not feel that those were adequate forces and truthfully they they weren't um you know he he put it out in a certain way he wrote it well but put it out a certain way to where the dispositions were not what the administration was thinking. You know he he counts Banks' men in with that protecting DC and technically he's not wrong. They're in Winchester and that's exactly where Jackson's going to go. But once Banks is defeated they're having to rush more men into the valley. The worst thing that could happen especially this early in the war is you have this force in your backyard that they're gonna come knocking on the door and we'll see it again time and again here the valley's used as an avenue of invasion and it it really does it plays it wreaks havoc uh on the government to an extent of having to maneuver troops in in places they weren't expecting to and I I also tend to go back and think that Edwin Stanton had a the Secretary of War had a lot to do with that as you know he panics about the Merrimack or the Virginia in uh March about it possibly sailing up the Potomac he's even told by the Navy Secretary like it it's going to draw too much war I can't do it. But he is he is just he gets fixated it seems and he's got the president's ear so I'm sure he's you know the president does some things to kind of calm him down but also you if you're constantly hearing stuff you start to kind of worry about it.

SPEAKER_00 38:11

So I I think that has a factor as well uh Jackson I think his campaign placed more of havoc on uh Edwin Stanton than it does Lincoln but as a result Stanton's gonna wreak havoc on Lincoln okay how would you you know so how how does the the Valley campaign cement Jackson's sort of legacy and like well the immediate effect as well like so obviously morale obviously like you said on the Confederate side but you know the are the union worried about Jackson now after this Valley campaign because like you said he's it's quite a quite a feat isn't it you know yes yes um yeah McClellan again I mean he's worried about a lot of things uh but McClellan is worried that you know he doesn't know where Jackson's gonna come out um is he going to stay in the valley and Jackson will be after the Battle of Port Republic which is the next day uh he's he'll stay here in the valley for about a week now he himself will go and meet uh with Robert E.

SPEAKER_01 39:13

Lee and Longstreet and them but already uh he has kind of got this aura about him uh as they're you know people don't know what to expect they don't know what he looks like uh other than paper renditions and things so to see him in person you know he's wearing a dingy uniform and a pulled down cap uh and he's he's an overgrown man on a on a small horse uh so he definitely does not look the picture of the you even like the picture we see here the the gallant looking general um he probably looked pretty silly and uh several of the men would talk about you know his feet dangling down past little sorrel um nearly to the ground because he he was a tall guy so the aura of him and the uh the the mystery uh I think is is bigger um uh than than the man himself um I am a Jackson fan uh what he does even when he makes mistakes he presses through um but I also acknowledge there are a lot of mistakes that he makes uh but the fact that he does this campaign and the amount of time that he does it is just it's crazy um I can't think of any other campaign that's quite like that that many miles that many battles that fast uh you know when you take away Kernstown in March you're talking the beginning of May to the beginning of June that's the rest of the campaign that is and that's not counting all the marching they did in between that from March to to May so absolutely ridiculous amount of marching and fighting and it really does it propels him up and and it scares scares several union generals and and some of the government absolutely um but yeah no it's fantastic I bet his men actually really secretly hate him for smarts like that you know you said you know there's a lot of stragglers I'm not surprised you know I bet they've think oh god here we go again yeah here we go and you know he uh he he's he's already kind of got a bad reputation with his men even before the Valley campaign because of the marching he does a winner campaign in 62 always head out to Romney uh you know he's not they he's not their favorite person in in that aspect but they really do uh come to admire him even though he asks for hard work um and in turn he he praises them uh but for instance I said about Yule in the beginning Yule is yeah he's a crazy Presbyterian he's he's nuts and by the time we get to Winchester Yule is singing his praises he's great this is a great general I'll follow him anywhere so just those few days you know really change some of the outlook um but yeah yeah it's uh it's an interesting interesting thing to think about yeah is there any myths or misconceptions surrounding the Battle of Cross Keys that you've come across or would like to clear up so misconceptions not really um it it's very much a Confederate victory um although it's it's a defensive victory there are there's always what ifs uh for instance the next day Yule has moved out in the night toward Port Republic to assist Jackson and the campfires are still burning you know Fremont when he deploys his men rather than marching in a column he doesn't know that the Confederates are gone he's gonna spread out in a long battle line and and they're gonna march like that for quite a while uh just past what's known as Mill Creek Church. And that's a pretty good little distance from their camps through the Confederate position on the other side of it that delay uh really delays you in getting to Port Republic and possibly wreaking havoc on Jackson uh from the other side of the river that because then they have to get in the column in order to to march which takes a long time when you have uh 11,000 men uh that you are marching and so there's not I don't think there's too terrible many misconceptions at Cross Keys other than it's it's not a a big offensive battle and Jackson wasn't actually there. Um he's credited of course because he's the overall commander but during the battle or any of that he he is not on the field. So that that might Be the only misconception. There is some of that that people, you know, it it gets counted as as uh a battle that Jackson fought, but he really wasn't there.

SPEAKER_00 44:10

So what about the uh accessibility of the battlefield? And of course, you said you take tours out there and that, and it's yeah, you know, how much of it is accessible, how much of it is left, has anything been built on some of it?

SPEAKER_01 44:23

So there is uh a lot of it is still farmland. Um, there are a lot of easements out that way uh where they have protected land, uh they being the Chandel Valley Battlefield Foundation, uh they run the National Historic District, and they've done a great job of protecting property out there and trying to show um everything about cross skis. You you can go to each of these spots I talked about. You can go to Union Church. Uh you can go into the cemetery where the 15th Alabama was, you can go up on uh a part of Artillery Ridge. It's that particular part is actually the position of the Maryland troops. It's known as Mill Creek Ridge. Through the woods would be Artillery Ridge, but that is privately owned. But still technically protected, it's farmed. Um then there is a store that was built, a country store, uh, that was built on Trimble's original position, but they are very uh much into keeping the history alive there. Uh they have signage out there from the Battlefield Foundation and a bunch of other things. They trails are coming in through there. There are several trails you can walk up to the spot where the Eighth New York is slaughtered, and again, you can see the clover field and walk through there. And then uh, if you go down a road called Goods Mill Road, you'll come up to the right flank of the Confederate Army uh there at Cross Keys, and there are new parking lots out there, uh so a little more accessible uh than it has been in past years, but uh they've done a really good job at getting that out there and making it more of a uh a battlefield park. Excellent, thanks, mate.

SPEAKER_00 46:09

Okay, that's the battle of Cross Keys. So thanks for telling us that. But now we're gonna talk about you, young man, because you're busy. Okay. We're gonna talk about your Civil War travels. So um so you run tours, don't you? Um, you've got a website, you've got a YouTube channel. I know you've got quite a good presence on social media as well, because I follow all your pages. Um, so just tell us a little bit about yourself, mate, if you wouldn't mind.

SPEAKER_01 46:34

So, yeah, uh again, I you know, started when I was a kid, really enjoying the civil war, playing it in my backyard. I I reenacted the Battle of Gettysburg both as a Confederate and a Union soldier, I don't know how many times. Um, and I won every time, which was kind of interesting. But um, you know, as I got older, and you know, you can go out and drive and stuff, I was able to go to places. The first battlefield I ever went to was Gettysburg. I went with my parents there. Uh, we didn't take a whole lot of vacations, and but that was one of them. And of course, it stuck with me because it was Gettysburg. But uh once uh after high school, I started, I decided I wanted to go around and document the sites that I had seen. Uh so I just jokingly called it Aaron Civil War Travels, um just for fun because I'm Aaron and it was Civil War traveling. And I went all over following the Civil War trail signs and you know from 2004 up. And I just I wrote everything down. I mean, historic markers, roadside markers, cemeteries I would go in and write what cemetery, how many Confederates or Union soldiers were buried there. I just really got into it. And then uh people would come and ask me questions about things, and I would you know just start spouting off stuff that they probably weren't expecting. And uh as it continued, uh, you know, I get up to about 2014, 2016 between there, decided to someone said you should do a YouTube page. I said, Yeah, I'll try it. I didn't know much about YouTube anyway. Uh went on there and did uh got the page going, didn't really do a whole lot with it for quite a few years. It was very sporadic. I might go out and decide to do a video. I had no clue about editing videos or anything, hadn't sit down to do that, just record it, put it on there, and uh hope for the best. Uh and I can definitely see the difference when I go back and look at my very first video, which was at Cedar Mountain, and uh I did a revisit to Cedar Mountain recently, and and it's vastly different uh from what I did in the beginning. But I I really always wanted to get into history. Uh I was in law enforcement for 15 years, uh, ended my career there as a detective. Um, I got offered a job by the foundation down here, the Battlefield Foundation, mowing battlefields and helping with projects and things like that. And so I was able to do that. I did that for a few years uh before my mother-in-law got sick and uh needed full-time help. And during that time in 2024 is when it was like, you know what, let's start this business. Um, my wife had been after me about it. My mother-in-law, one of her dying things that she told me was you need to do this. Um, and I'd already been given some tours and talks here and there. Uh so I I dove in and did the LLC in uh 2024 and 25 were um each year has seemed to to kind of progress. I mean, here in 2026, I've uh I've got I'll be in Pittsburgh next week and then Ohio the week after. And uh it's Facebook Live with Emerging Civil Wars coming up, so there's a lot going on. That's just March. Um but I'm enjoying it. I've luckily I have a very supportive wife and son who uh who let me use this passion uh uh to educate and things like that, and uh just very thankful for that.

SPEAKER_00 50:13

So I'm seeing very uh a lot of similarities to my home life there, Aaron, apart from the fact that I don't live in America. Um everything you just said, very similar. Again, if I look back at some of my early stuff, I cringe. I didn't have a clue about editing, obviously. I do now, um, but yeah, some of that early stuff, just like, oh my god, but you leave it there because you know it's how you start. I didn't know how to do anything, you know. Um, but yes, uh five years on, here we are. And uh no, fantastic, mate. And I've really enjoyed uh talking to you. So at this point, Aaron, thank you so much for giving up your time to come and talk about the um Battle of Cross Keys. Of course, this is not going to be the last time we have a conversation, I'm sure. Um, so all that is left to say, my friend, is cheers. Cheers.