The Declaration of Independence July 4, 1776 with (Mark Maloy) America 250

The Declaration of Independence July 4, 1776 with (Mark Maloy) America  250 

In this special episode of American Civil War & UK History, celebrating America 250, host Daz is joined by Emerging Revolutionary War's Mark Maloy to explore the Declaration of Independence, adopted on 4 July 1776. Together, they discuss the events that led to this pivotal moment in American history, its lasting significance, and the legacy of the document that gave birth to a new nation.

On 4 July 1776, the Second Continental Congress formally adopted the Declaration of Independence, announcing that the thirteen American colonies were no longer under British rule. The document set out the principles of liberty, equality, and self-government, marking the birth of the United States of America.

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SPEAKER_01 0:00

If you keep up to date with everything in America Civil War and UK history, head over to our website, HCW and UK History.com. And remember, this podcast has a PowerPoint presentation that goes along with the show. So if you would like to see the PowerPoint presentation, then head over to our YouTube channel at American Civil War and UK History. Cheers. Hello everyone, I'm Daz, and welcome to American Civil War and UK History Podcast. This presentation is available as a video on our YouTube channel or as a podcast from wherever you get your podcasts from. And if you're watching on YouTube, remember to hit the subscribe button and give us a big thumbs up. And check out our website at www.acwandukhistory.com where you find podcasts, blog posts, and links to all of our social media pages. The link is also available in the podcast description. And joining me today, I'm pleased to say, is historian Mark Malloy. Welcome, Mark.

SPEAKER_00 0:55

Hello, thank you for having me. It's great to be able to talk across the pond uh about uh the recent uh unpleasantness.

SPEAKER_01 1:05

So I like it, I like the banter. But anyway, so yes, so this year marks 250 years since the Declaration of Independence. So this is of course the basis of our discussion today. But Mark, before we get into that, it's your first time on American Civil War and UK history. So I would love to know how you first became interested in history, please.

SPEAKER_00 1:30

Yeah, absolutely. So uh as you mentioned, Mark Malloy, I uh I I've been into history ever since I was a little kid. I I grew up in Northern Virginia, uh, which of course is surrounded by all sorts of American history, but w one of the sites that I first went to uh was the home of George Washington, Mount Vernon. Um and uh going there as a kid really sparked my interest in American history and specifically George Washington's story. Um and then as I grew older, uh, you know, I wanted to basically be able to tell these stories. You know, you can read about history, you can watch documentaries, you can uh there's all sorts of different ways to connect to history, but the the most impactful way for me has always been standing in the place where history actually happened. Um and that's how I learned, and that's how I kind of wanted to give back. Uh so I studied history at the College of William and Mary in Williamsburg, Virginia, and uh after that I started working in historic sites and museums and archaeological digs, and I've been doing that now for for the past 20 years. Um, and I've been working with the National Park Service uh most recently here in the United States and had the real honor to be able to work at numerous historic sites and battlefields across the country, um, and a lot right here in in Virginia. Um and uh but my passion has always been George Washington and the founding. Um, and uh I was able to get uh uh hooked up into emerging civil war uh and then emerging revolutionary war. So if any of your followers, I'm sure, are familiar with emerging civil war, you may not be as uh familiar with emerging revolutionary war, but we are a group, uh actually I think Rob Orrison and uh Phil Greenwald may have uh uh talked to your group before. So uh we kind of have this group of uh emerging revolutionary war historians and we do blog posts, we have our own podcasts, um, and uh we also have we do battlefield bus tours, but one of the real things is is we we write the emerging revolutionary war books. Um and uh so far uh we're coming up now on ten volumes in the series uh that covers all sorts of battles and engagements up and down the eastern seaboard. Uh I've written two of those books, one on victory, uh one one about the battles of Trent and Princeton, Victory or Death, uh, and one about the battles around Charleston, South Carolina to the last extremity. Um and um actually have one coming out this fall that's gonna be about the battles around New York City called Conquer or Die. So uh be on the lookout for that as well. But all this history is just really fascinating to me. So getting an invitation to talk to your audience is uh is a real pleasure for me. So appreciate the invitation.

SPEAKER_01 4:12

Thank you. Absolutely great answer. And also, yeah, guys, I will make sure emerging revolutionary war links are in the podcast description. Okay, let's talk about today's topic then, Mark, because again it is very important. 250 years ago, uh this event will happen. And uh so um I know this is gonna be very difficult, but in a short space of time, can you try and give people an overview of how we're gonna get to this point? And again, I know that's difficult.

SPEAKER_00 4:44

Yeah, no, I it's a great uh that's a great way to start this because uh, you know, I'm not sure you your audience how familiar they are, but I know in the United States uh there's a lot of talk of, you know, America's birthday, America 250, and everybody's really kind of focused on July 4th, 1776. Um and a lot of people don't realize that, you know, uh just a year prior to that, that there was really very little talk of independence uh in what became the United States. Uh basically what happened it had gone on for for years, but the the seeds of independence uh were really sown during during the previous conflict, the French and Indian War. Um, of course, you know, colonists uh uh from Great Britain, uh, you know, these were royal colonies that had been existing on the seaboard uh for well over a hundred years uh by the time of 1776. Uh all these different colonies, they had a lot of their own cultures, their own, you know, they were very independently minded. Uh they actually felt they had more in uh common with Great Britain than they did with each other. Uh you know, you know, they were very much tied uh you know through the shipping and trade uh back to London and Great Britain. Uh so you know somebody from South Carolina may be in regular contact with people in Great Britain and yet talk very, very little to somebody, say in Virginia uh or New Jersey. Um so all of these colonies kind of had their independent views of things. Um and it really wasn't, like I said, uh the seeds of discord, you you might say, uh were sown during the French and Indian War. So in the 1750s, when the French and Indian War breaks out, uh, you know, it's France and England fighting over the Ohio Valley, the backcountry, because as these colonies start moving westward, uh there's a real question of who's going to control that territory. And the French wanted it, uh, the Spanish were coming up from the south, the English were coming in from the from the east, uh, and it led to this large conflict. And Great Britain uh you know funded a lot. Uh they they sent in in blood and treasure. They're gonna send over troops, they're gonna spend a lot of money uh to defend the American colonies uh and to fight the the French in the Ohio Valley. Um now after that, that is going to cause a, you know, there's gonna be a real need for funds. It's gonna uh do a real damage to the British treasury. Um so in order to pay for this conflict, uh they are gonna do something they haven't done before, uh, and that's to levy taxes directly on the American colonists. Uh like I said, the colonists had paid taxes, but usually it was their own colonial legislatures that were determining what the taxes were and and having people pay them. So this was something they had not uh had a deal with before. Uh and one of the first uh taxes that was really levied was the Stamp Act in 1765. Um and this is you know really started to impact individual American colonists. Um now these were these were small amounts of taxes. Um, I think a study has had shown that the average uh British subject over in England was paying 25 times the amount of tax as the American colonists. Um and so they quite didn't understand what all the uh yelping of uh uh problems with these taxes that the British were levying. But the problem was it was about power. Who had the right to tax these people? Uh the colonists were very adamant that they were the only ones that could tax uh themselves, and so because of that, there's gonna be mass protests, there are gonna be organizations formed here in the colonies called the Sons of Liberty, uh, and these are gonna start gathering together leaders and communities where they find ways to protest, whether it's tarring and feathering a tax collector, uh, whether it's doing all sorts of different protests in the streets, uh, creating liberty trees uh where they hang banners and liberty poles. Uh and so this this whole idea of protest really takes hold. Um, and it works. Uh Britain repeals the tax, uh the stamp tax, that is, but uh Britain wasn't about to say, hey, you're off on your own, you can do whatever you want. So they're going to continue in an attempt to levy taxes on the American colonists. And it's going to go on for years uh through the 1760s. And because of these protests, something also that hadn't been done, you know, Great Britain is going to send soldiers uh and station them in American cities. Uh and the most notorious of these was Boston, up in Massachusetts, uh, which were known for being very hot-headed, uh liberty-minded people up there. So when British soldiers come in in 1768, uh Britain's hoping that that is going to really kind of tamper down uh these protests, uh, and actually has the opposite effect. It only really kind of galvanizes more people having standing armies at peacetime in their cities, really uh really kind of gets them even more upset. Uh so what's going to happen uh next in 1770, there's actually this uh awful incident that happens in Boston between some of these soldiers and some civilians, uh, where, you know, really in an act of self-defense, uh when a mob comes around some of these British soldiers, uh a shot is fired, all the soldiers end up firing into the crowd, five men are killed, six are wounded, uh, and uh it's gonna be labeled as the bloody massacre or the Boston Massacre. And that happened on March 5th, 1770. Um and that really kind of galvanized even more people to the cause of the American colonists. Um but it's gonna continue to build and build. The real big thing that's gonna really kind of change relationship is in 1773 an event called the Boston Tea Party. Uh by this point, Britain had stopped taxing pretty much everything uh except for a tax on tea. Um and there were some ships coming into America, and uh they came into Boston Harbor, and uh, you know, they said as soon as this tea is unloaded, they're gonna have to pay the taxes on the tea. The Americans are. Americans refused to do that. They wouldn't let it uh let it happen, and they wouldn't let the tea off the ship. Um, and they said there was a time period that once it hit December 16th, 1773, that the tax would have to be paid because they'd been in port for so long. Um well, so that night, on December 16th, a bunch of American Sons of Liberty gather up onto the ship. They gather all that tea and they dump it into the harbor, uh, and they destroy it all rather than pay the taxes on it. Um and this infuriates uh Britain. And so what they're gonna do is they're gonna they're gonna l uh pass the coercive measures or the coercive acts, uh, which today many people remember as the intolerable acts. And this was really Britain coming down hard on the colonists, saying you cannot act lawlessly like this. Uh and that is going to include closing the entire port of Boston to any shipping. They revoke the charter, the Royal Charter of Massachusetts, disbanding their town meetings uh from being able to meet. Uh they uh they pass a quartering act uh uh allowing these soldiers to be stationed in buildings uh in Boston. Um these kinds of measures uh really are meant to cripple uh Massachusetts and bring them back into line until they pay for all the tea that they destroyed. Um, this is really a motivating factor, and it shocks all the American colonists up and down the eastern seaboard. All of a sudden, people in South Carolina are saying, well, they can do that to Boston, they can do that to us. Uh and that's gonna force uh all of these colonists to come together uh in Philadelphia, in Pennsylvania, they're gonna come together and have a first continental congress. Uh, and this is where they can at least sit there, because they had never met before, really, and talk to each other and figure out how do we resolve this situation. Um, and there were many in the colonies at that time, like I said, who were not looking for independence. Uh they were looking to find a way to ameliorate the situation. Uh and what they come up with is basically petitioning to King George. Uh you know, many of them viewed this as the actions of a parliament uh that was out of control, uh, and they viewed the king as their benefactor, uh, that King George III would step in and and and and basically protect the American colonies at that point. So they send off an olive branch petition uh to the king, uh and uh the king actually ignores it. Um but the delegates decide that they'll meet again uh in 1775 uh and that they will call this the Second Continental Congress. Um and so by the time they reconvene in May of 1775, everything changed, and that was because of Lexington Concord. Um and basically what happened up in Boston, as the tinderbox of war starts building and building and tensions start building and building, the Massachusetts colonists start forming up as militias, uh, which they had always done to basically defend against Indian attacks, but here they were preparing for a potential war with the soldiers that were in Boston. Uh and Thomas Gage, who was the British commander-in-chief of that time, decided that he couldn't have these militias armed, uh, especially with cannon. Uh and so what he was going to do is he started doing missions out into the Massachusetts countryside from Boston, where they would go find stored gunpowder, find cannons and other things, gather them up and take them, confiscate them, take them back to Boston. Uh they did it uh successfully a couple times, unsuccessfully a few times, uh, but it had never actually devolved into open combat. But on April 19th, 1775, uh they go out to Lexington, Massachusetts. Uh, they're on their way to Concord, where there's a store of gunpowder and weapons. Uh at Lexington, there's a group of militiamen standing on the green there, who are standing in open defiance uh to the British soldiers. Uh the British soldiers immediately go out onto that green. Uh we don't know who fired the first shot, uh, but a shot was fired. And as soon as a shot is fired, both sides open fire into each other, but it was really brutal uh on the American colonists. Uh many are left dead on the green, others wounded. The British only had one wounded man. Uh and they go on to the town of Concord. Uh the Americans had already moved away all the gunpowder and everything. Uh, and by that point, all the countryside was alerted, and you have militiamen coming from all over New England, and uh they're gonna open fire across the North Bridge uh in Concord, and at that point British soldiers are killed. Uh and the British are gonna have to retreat from Concord all the way back to Massachusetts and winning battle all day with militia firing on them the whole way. Uh, and dozens of British soldiers are killed, dozens of Americans are killed, uh, and this was the beginning of the war. Uh so the war broke out before there was ever any talk of independence or separation, anything like that. Um, and after the British are driven back into Boston, the Americans start laying siege to the town. Um, and so when the Second Continental Congress convenes, war has already broken out, and there's an army now up in Massachusetts. This Congress in Philadelphia decides to adopt this army, uh, and they create the Continental Army. They name George Washington from Virginia to be its commander-in-chief and an attempt to unify all the colonies around this. So Washington goes off to join this army. Uh and in that time, a battle had already broken out when the British tried to break out of the siege at a place called, you may be familiar, Bunker Hill. Uh it was actually Breed's Hill, uh, but it ended up being the bloodiest day of the entire war. Over a thousand British soldiers and officers are killed or wounded assaulting this hill, uh, and the Americans mowed them down every time, but eventually, out of ammunition, they fled the field, and so the British took the hill. Uh, and you could see that image there in your lower left on that that panel you have there of uh the fighting up there on Bunker Hill. Um and so now it's there there's almost no going back at this point. Um there were still conservatives talking about, you know, how could could we resolve this war and maintain our our our part in the um in the British Empire? You have to remember the the Americans had had you know they owed a lot to their uh history, uh their English history. Um you know, they were considered themselves some of the freest people in the world. Uh they were very much believers in the British Constitution and the rights of Englishmen. Um that was something you always saw them talk about. In fact, in what I think was one of the most ironic moments uh on that retreat back from uh from Concord, as the British soldiers are marching down the road, there's a house there, the Jason Russell house, and it was on the road, and uh there were fighting going all along the road, and the elderly man uh who owned that house uh came out of his house uh and decided he was going to fight for his home uh right there on the road. And a bunch of his friends kept telling him, hey, you gotta get out of here. The the British soldiers are coming down. Um and he cried out, an Englishman's home is his castle. Uh and he decided to stay there and fight. And he ended up paying it for his life. Uh he was actually shot and then and then bayoneted to death on the front doorstep of his house. Um but you know, there he is talking about the rights of Englishmen. Um and these rights uh was something that was deeply uh uh uh you know imbued in many of the colonists. Uh so what they were trying to do during that winter of 1775 going into 1776, you do see start seeing the call for independence uh to come more and more. Uh and that's from things like the pamphlet Common Sense, written by Thomas Fain, uh, who you know argues uh that, and this argument is read by many colonists at the time, uh, that the time had come for a separation from Great Britain. Uh as the war starts dragging on into March of 1776, uh a real turning point happened. Uh as the Americans were laying siege to Boston. Um, there was a bunch of cannon out at Fort Ticonderoga, uh, out in upstate New York. Uh and there was an American artilleryman, Henry Knox, and he actually gathers this artillery up, hauls it all the way to Boston, um, and it gets there. You know, over the winter, they get this artillery there. They're able to set up this artillery um on Dorchester Heights overlooking Boston City. And on, you know, when the British wake up the next morning and they see this artillery up on this hill, they realize they could do another bunker hill and try and take that hill, uh, or they would just evacuate the city. Um, and they decided to just evacuate the city. So they pull out um from Boston on March 17, 1776. And this is George Washington's first real victory of the war. Um, the Americans had recaptured Boston, and it's imbued with this kind of uh you know, uh this high from victory that they decide now is an opportunity when they could actually strike out for independence. Um, and that these calls were going stronger and stronger because of this war, because as the war is going on, they realize that they really need some support, especially from other countries, and they're looking specifically at Spain and France, hoping that one of these countries who are already kind of under the table helping the colonists, uh, but they really wanted, you know, a military alliance or be able to to to to speak with do diplomacy with them and come into agreement with some kind of treaty. Uh well they can't do uh you know, a bunch of rebelling colonists can't, you know, create a treaty with somebody, but uh a separate nation could. Um And so that's where a lot of these colonies start realizing that they need to declare independence if they want to get that kind of foreign recognition. And I think it was really succinctly said by Thomas Jefferson after the fact that by the summer of 1776, it wasn't so much declaring something new as it as it was declaring something that was a fact already. And so at this point by the summer of 1776, it's uh you know, they've been at war now for over a year. Uh they're in open warfare. All the different colonies are starting to realize they need to start forming their own governments. Uh, and it's under this moment that they're going to uh uh vote for independence. Um and like I said, there's a lot of uh you know, we can go into what was actually going on because Great Britain wasn't about to let these rebelling colonies just go off on their merry way, uh, and they were actually preparing for really the largest invasion Great Britain had ever done anywhere in the world up to that point. Um, and they were gathering a massive army and armada to head towards the shores of the United States um and and really crush what they viewed as this uh rebellion going on in the colonies.

SPEAKER_01 23:27

Excellent, mate. Well, I'll tell you now, doing that in that short space of time, that's fantastic. Thank you for that great answer. Okay, so we have moved into that place now where, like you said, there's no going back. That's it. So let's look at some of the key figures behind it. And I have um six of the key figures here. I know there is another one, but we'll bring him in in a minute. Um so would you like to talk us through some of the key figures and their role in obviously meeting? And so they start meeting um do they start meeting in June of that year, is that correct? Or is it a little bit earlier than that?

SPEAKER_00 24:03

Uh well they actually started uh um you know, in 1775, the Second Continental Congress starts to meet. Um but yeah, they would go on recesses occasionally and then reconvene. Um but yeah, I think the the Second Continental Congress in in 1776 uh begins meeting in May of 76.

SPEAKER_01 24:28

Awesome. So would you like to explain um some of these guys' involvement in the uh in the declaration itself, please?

SPEAKER_00 24:37

Yeah. Um well and it's really interesting. So uh, you know, I see in there there in the center on the top uh you have John Adams uh who's great. Um in you know, there's just a book that our friend Chris Mikowski just published uh about John Adams, specifically and his role in independence. Uh he was referred to as the Atlas of Independence, uh which, you know, Atlas holding up the world there. Uh he really was uh one of the strongest proponents of American independence on the floor of the Congress, um, which is interesting because when you look at Adams' backstory, you know, I mentioned earlier about the Boston Massacre that happened. After that happened, uh they took those British soldiers that had been involved in it and they put them on trial in Massachusetts. Um and John Adams is actually going to uh be the lawyer who actually defends these British soldiers. So here you have this guy defending, and he ends up being successful, uh, and he gets most of them off entirely. Nobody was executed, um, and it was actually uh you know a great view of how the Americans could do a uh uh you know do justice uh in the colony of Massachusetts. Um and then when Britain does the coercive acts, one of those acts also said that British soldiers are no longer gonna be tried in any colonial legislatures. They're gonna go back to England where they'll be tried, which is really a slap in the face uh to people like John Adams who had proved that you know they could be dispassionate and actually uh do a good defense for them. Uh but John Adams, uh, like I said, he's gonna be there and he's one of the more vocal members of the uh of the Congress speaking out in favor of independence. Uh there were other men like uh uh John Dickinson of uh of Pennsylvania, uh, who was really on the opposite end, uh, really thought independence was going too far and wanted to be more measured in his uh uh in the advance of the the American cause. Uh but John Adams and also a lot of how what we know that went on, we know from John Adams, uh, because he wrote a lot about it. Uh he has a great correspondence with his wife where he's writing back and forth about what's going on. Um and uh and yeah, the one on the the top right there, uh you have Ben Franklin. Um and he was probably the most famous of all the founders, uh, especially around the world. Everybody knew Ben Franklin. Um he was renowned for not only his political views, but also he was a scientist. He he was really, you know, a renaissance man in everything that he did, his writings, uh, his politics, his inventions, and everything else like that. Uh he was the oldest uh member of the Congress, and I think he brought a real air of legitimacy uh to the entire endeavor. Uh, because you have to remember this whole Congress uh is essentially an extra-legal gathering of people. This was not under the auspices of any Royal Charter or any uh British uh, you know, it did not agree with them meeting at all. So uh Ben Franklin there brought brought real air of legitimacy. Um but it really came to a head uh in early June of 76. Uh uh on May 15, 1776, uh the colony of Virginia uh is actually going to declare their own independence, and they are going to tell Richard Henry Lee uh in the Virginia delegation, you can see Richard Henry Lee there in the center on the bottom, uh they are going to actually tell him to uh posit to the um to the Congress that the American colonies are and of right ought to be free independent states, and that any uh connection with Great Britain is hereby dissolved entirely. Um and so once that gets to the the delegation up in Philadelphia, Richard Henry Lee's gonna propose this on June 7, 1776. Uh so he does this in front of the Congress. Remember, this is the first time that this has been brought before the Congress of formally dissolving all bands with Great Britain. So it's kind of a a major move. A lot of the colonies, some of them, like North Carolina and some other colonies, they actually had their their colonies actually said, hey, if if independence comes up, you can vote in favor of it. Uh but a lot of other colonies, their representatives had no instructions from their homes. So they had uh they said, well, we gotta wait until we find out what our people back at home uh what they're comfortable with. Uh so they say, okay, so we'll we'll have the vote uh in three weeks' time. Uh and they say they're gonna they're gonna actually vote for it on July 1st, 1776. So they kind of have this this three-week break. Uh well during that time, they say, hey, we really want to uh you know, we're gonna have to have a declaration written uh that we can vote on. Um so why don't we go ahead and get a draft of that put together? So they agree to do that, and they form what's called the Committee of Five, uh, five men to actually come up with this draft. Um and of course you have there uh in the bottom right-hand corner Thomas Jefferson. Uh and Thomas Jefferson is from Virginia, he's one of the youngest guys, 33 years old. Uh, and uh he's part of this committee. Uh he's unlike John Adams, and him and John Adams are going to have a fascinating history. Uh they really become really the main guys for the first 50 years of the United States of America. But Jefferson is very quiet, very reticent. He doesn't speak a lot on the floor, but he was a brilliant man uh who had written a lot about the rights uh of men. And uh John Adams is on this committee with him, and John Adams uh suggests Jefferson first says, Well, you should probably write it. You know, he's the he's the atlas of independence after all. And John Adams says, No, it's important that you write it. Um, and he says, you know, John Adams knew he was abrasive and not well liked uh by some in the Congress, uh, so he wanted it to come from Jefferson. Uh he said it was also important that Jefferson write it because he's from Virginia. Um, this is something, again, like I said, with all these colonies that viewed themselves almost as separate countries, being united and making sure this was not a Massachusetts Declaration of Independence, but making sure this is a United States declaration. Uh, this is where he really wanted to have Virginia on board. So Jefferson and John Adams also says that you know, you are a great writer, uh, and far better than me. Um say Jefferson is going to take primarily this task on, uh, but the other members of the committee are going to make edits to it. But Jefferson writes the first draft of the Declaration of Independence. Um, and when you think of that document, um, you know, we we can go into the actual document, but you know, it's remembered mostly for one sentence. You know, we hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, they are endowed by their creator by certain inalienable rights. Among these are life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. Uh, but we can go into the document a little bit and talk about how it's really much more than that one sentence, even though that's really kind of the prose that we've picked up on over the past 250 years. But he does make a beautiful document. Um, and uh and they're gonna present that to the Congress at the end of June. Um by July 1st, uh, like I said, that vote is coming up, you know, and they now most of the colonies had heard back from their people, but a few of them were still very reticent. Um you know, uh New York still was waiting on you know their uh colonial legislature to tell them what to do. Uh South Carolina uh was unsure. Um they weren't really on board, even though their legislature had said they could vote for independence. Uh uh Edward Rutledge, one of the members there, was uh a little reticent uh to to jump with two feet. Um and so uh uh you know they decide their uh Pennsylvania, a couple of delegates, like I said, John Dickinson, they they were not really on board at this moment. Uh Delaware was split at that time. Um, but you know, it was like trying to get you know 13 clocks to all strike 12 at the same time. It was really kind of trying to get this thing together. So they say, hey, we want to wait one more day to do hold this vote. Um and so they're gonna wait till July 2nd. Um July 2nd, uh Edward Rutledge, once he found out the others were gonna be on board, they said South Carolina will vote for independence. Um you're gonna have New York uh was still on the board, uh, but but they said they would abstain, they wouldn't vote against it while they waited. And uh Pennsylvania, uh the delegates who were unsure of it uh were convinced to not show up to the Congress that day. Um and Delaware, which was still split, uh one of their delegates had to ride through the night. Uh his name was Caesar Rodney, uh, and actually showed up to the Pennsylvania State House uh just in time in order to cast a tie-breaking vote for Delaware to be on board. But they hold the vote on July 2nd, and twelve uh colonies vote in favor, and New York abstains. So they were able to say it was unanimous that they had voted for independence. And July 2nd was the day they voted for independence. And John Adams wrote home to his wife and said, July 2nd will be remembered forevermore as the great anniversary celebration. It should be celebrated every year with parades and fireworks and uh bells and concerts and you know, from one end of the continent to the other, from here forevermore. Um he was right, uh, but he was off by two days, and that's because what we ended up celebrating was not the vote for independence, it was actually the passage of the actual declaration. Uh, so that's gonna come up to a vote two days later on July 4th, uh, and that's the actual document that Jefferson had had written uh that had been edited, uh, but with a final version was voted for on July 4th, uh, and that is passed, and that becomes the great anniversary celebration, July 4th, 1776, when America officially uh not just voted for their independence, but declared it to the world that they were free and independent states.

SPEAKER_01 35:53

Excellent. Thank you, mate. And also there was another person that was influential in uh some of the things that were you know put into the document. So would you like to tell us about John Locke and his involvement in his input in the famous uh declaration?

SPEAKER_00 36:10

Yes. Uh yeah, John Locke, uh you know, all of this is is part of a a long history of of Enlightenment thought uh that had gone back um you know generations. Uh and like you say, John Locke really in particular, because when you look at his writing, I mean some of it is word for word, some of the stuff he actually wrote. Uh you know, when they say life, uh, liberty and the pursuit of happiness, John Locke had written life, liberty, and property. Um and so a lot of these ideals uh that had really been brewing in Europe uh for a long time. Uh you know, men like Jefferson and Adams, uh they were reading and consuming all of this stuff uh and they really used uh they're they're gonna use those actual ideas uh when they're coming up with the preamble. Um you know, that's really the main place where uh you see some of those ideals because basically how they break down the declaration is it starts off with this uh you know beautiful prose of you know when in the course of human events, you know, why are we declaring independence? Uh and then it gets into the the ideals behind it. Uh that's really in that preamble of you know everybody has the right, uh, you know, governments are instituted by men, um, and that it's the the right and the duty that when those governments go against their uh their interests that you know that it they should tear down those and institute new governments in its place. Um but really the the the central part of the declaration uh is really an indictment of specifically King George III. Um and it's very interesting because like I said, a year before many of the Congress viewed King George III as their benefactor, uh that he would actually step in and uh he was gonna actually protect them from uh from a runaway parliament. Uh but after uh there he is, after uh they realize that um you know he was not going to step in on their side, uh they really make him the target of of the the majority of the Declaration of Independence. So uh and they level all sorts of or lay a lot of things at his feet, um, some of which deservedly uh others not so much, um, but talks about how you know he was levying war on them, uh how he had burned their cities, uh, how he was having, you know, trying to get Indians and slaves to rise up against them, um uh, you know, it talking about all the different things that the coercive acts had done to them. Uh so after this long list of indictments on King George III, uh it then closes out with like kind of this um uh finale of this is why we're declaring independence. Uh and and the last line of it talks about really what these guys were were signing on to. Uh and you know, they say we mutually pledge together our lives, our fortunes, and our sacred honor. Um and you can see all those signatures on there. Um they're gonna actually, you know, people think they signed the document on July 4th, but it was actually not until August that they're actually going to sign the actual document. Uh, but they were very much uh committing treason uh by doing this. Um and you know, there were some apocryphal stories, perhaps they're true, maybe not, um, but you know, certainly the the ideas were correct. You know, Ben Franklin said, uh, we'll all hang uh we'll all hang together, or assuredly we'll all hang separately. Um there was another delegate while they were waiting to sign uh who was a little bit heavier, uh, and he turned to one of his fellow congressmen and said, uh, well, you're lucky because uh when when uh or he said I'm lucky because when I hang, uh my neck will break immediately, uh, but you'll be left uh twitching there for about half an hour. Um and so really kind of dark humor. Uh but it really shows the uh by publicizing this document, uh by outright uh declaring independence, uh they were committing treason to the the British crown. Um and they they certainly took note of that. Um and uh you know they knew uh we all know how uh the British uh handled uh traitors at that time. Many of them probably remember the Jacobite uprising in Scotland and how many of the leaders of that would have been executed and or others exiled. Um so uh they certainly knew the the the pain of treason um and yet uh went ahead and uh and signed on to the document. Uh but going back to originally, yeah, I just you know, it it w the the irony of it is that it was English philosophers and English ideas really uh that led the the colonies uh to this moment. Um so it's you know, when we say it's kind of uh you know the the cousins war, uh it really was because they were very much connected uh not just in blood but but in principle and in ideas.

SPEAKER_01 41:49

Yeah, and I was gonna bring that up because I've always uh from the way I've understood it, some of uh so we had a very uh special document um that was uh produced in June of uh June the 15th, 1215, uh during the uh King John's reign, and that is Magna Carta. So how much of that sort of philosophy is put into the actual document itself? Um is that something that's true or is that a myth?

SPEAKER_00 42:19

Uh no, I mean I think the Magna Carta, I mean, that was one of the first times there was this attempt to uh you know reign in power from a monarch, right? Uh and and so I think that the Declaration, you know, that was I think one of the the initial starting points uh of many of these ideals of uh the power of you know the individuals and the power of the people. Um and and Parliament, of course, was supposed to be that representation of that. Um and it was for many years. And and and one of the rallying cries in America, uh, you know, I mentioned the the whole history of taxation and and uh who had the power, who had the authority. One of the rallying cries in America was ta you know, no taxation without representation. Um which you know they really believed in these ideals that you know a you know a a one singular power cannot dictate uh to the mass uh without having some sort of say in it. And and that's where really I think the Magna Carta started that kind of conversation uh and it kind of you know continued on and yeah, it came up again in in 1776. Uh it is interesting because we say no taxation without representation, but they they really probably didn't want representation because if if the colonies had representation in the British Parliament, uh they would probably just be voted they'd just be a minority the entire time and be overvoted, overruled every single time. Um and so that's really where you know, the idea of independence ended up, you know, come becoming much more appealing to them. Uh but but no, I I have no doubt that the the Magna Carta being the the first attempt at this um uh taking power from from the monarch and distributing it to the people I think that was very much a uh one of the first steps uh that ultimately uh the the people in the Congress understood that history um and believed they were acting like I said as free Englishmen would have um and that's something that people always talk about was the revolution really a revolution uh because really what they ended up with uh was a very similar system to that what they had in the British Empire they just now did not have to deal with the king or the uh the British Parliament but they ended up setting their own governments that were very very similar to the the British government with uh with a legislature with uh um with uh an executive uh the president which you know people like Jefferson would say was almost like a monarch um and uh but yeah the the roots of British uh government are uh all throughout the American colonies and today the states it's very much uh uh political grandchild of the Magna Carta.

SPEAKER_01 45:25

Absolutely thank you for adding that yeah and I just want to say I I I mean you know obviously George III was the figurehead of the British Empire at that point but it's the government and the and parliament that basically decided everything so it is a bit bit to blame him for everything like you said but you did say that anyway so that's fine. But yeah no I would like to bring up ordinary people because of course how how do they play a role in this you know do they you know I mean you've got these guys all meeting obviously from the different states and they're all representing different states but how did their voice get heard in all of this?

SPEAKER_00 46:02

Yeah so um you know back then you know as far as like choosing leaders uh from the various colonies each colony uh had different systems uh in place but generally uh you know white male landowners uh were generally the ones who uh you know would actually vote on things um and generally they are the ones uh choosing who the the representatives to say the um the local legislatures or and then those local legislatures were choosing who is going to like Congress. So so yeah I mean it was obviously more of an aristocracy because you know you had to be landowning. So there were many commoners who didn't have as much a say uh but yet you know I think the the best place of the people who had a say or the commoners where they had the biggest impact uh was actually on the ground in fighting the war uh because what's gonna end up happening is is many of these commoners who are landless um you know when the war breaks out uh they're gonna choose sides and many of them will end up joining military units uh you know largely because you know a they may be true believers in the cause uh but some of them you know may see the opportunity to be able to get a steady paycheck uh others are going to be enticed by land bounties uh many of the American colonists uh who were not part of the landed gentry were looking out west um and they wanted to move out west one of the things they thought that the British were attempting to stop them uh was after the French and Indian War as they set up the proclamation of 1763 uh which was a line along the Appalachian Mountains saying that colonists could no longer settle beyond there and that really irked a lot of these American colonists because they wanted to move west uh they wanted to build farms in places like Ohio and you know or future Ohio future Kentucky future Tennessee like all these areas to the West they wanted to go out there and they wanted to set up farms and become landed gentry themselves. But uh but yeah call uh the commoners uh aren't going to have as much of say in the political realm uh but they obviously are paying attention to everything that's going on you know I mentioned Thomas Paine's pamphlet Common Sense you know other than the Bible that was one of the most read pamphlets at the time in 1776 and they're at you know taverns and coffee shops and other things like that and they're hearing about a lot of these ideas um and and you know many of them are going to be on board with it and it's gonna fuel that idea of liberty um others are gonna you know be very much against it uh and that's where you have a you know a lot of people forget there was a large population of people who were against this entire idea we call them loyalists and they remain loyal to King George and the British uh government and uh they're they're gonna actively work to stop this from happening uh and they're going to form their own military companies and they're gonna see seek protection from British armies. Uh so commoners are obviously play a huge role in the story um up and down the Eastern Seaboard they're gonna be involved in it in many different ways not necessarily from uh you know signing the Declaration but they're gonna be involved in fighting uh and really in in in getting local populations to either support or reject uh the things that are coming out of the Congress absolutely thank you mate um I've got to ask this question as well um so um is there any contradictions in the document um you know obviously there's you know the the the question of slavery and and the Indian population and things like that. So is there any anything you can add to that there a little bit yeah absolutely so uh you know I mentioned uh in the long list of crimes that King George III committed uh you know I mentioned that uh he was uh trying to get slaves to rise up against their masters and he was trying to get Indians to rise up on the frontiers against the colonists uh there's some truth to that uh in 1775 uh Lord Dunmore in Virginia uh actually did a emancipation proclamation uh to all rebel uh uh to all slaves of rebel slaveholders uh that if they came and joined him uh that they would get their freedom uh and so uh that really did create a uh an incentive for slaves to rise up against their masters uh and there were Indian tribes who are going to ally themselves with the British uh and be involved on border fights uh in the frontier as well there was a crime that uh Thomas Jefferson actually included uh initially in his first draft that was edited out where he laid the the blame of slavery even existing in the United States on the British uh for having uh brought slavery to the shores of America uh but that was taken out um uh you know partly to appease uh the slave colonies uh yeah although slavery existed a lot of people forget this the the you know we often think north and south during the Civil War, slave and free uh in every single uh colony, all thirteen of them, slavery existed when the Declaration of Independence was signed in 1776. Now the contradiction is you know I mentioned that that famous sentence uh you know we hold these truths to be self-evident uh that all men are created equal uh now that is a you know phrase that is going to be really uh taken up uh by abolitionist groups uh and especially you know became probably even more famous by Abraham Lincoln during the the Gettysburg Address um and they really tie on into this idea of all men are created equal means that commoners, slaves, Indians, these are all they are all equal. Whether Thomas Jefferson who at that point owned hundreds of slaves uh actually believe that uh I don't think so uh many of them when they say something like that all men are created equal they mean all men uh you know under the law are to be treated equal doesn't mean that every single person is equal um and uh and yeah like I said you know different people are going to read different things into that prose uh but there's no doubt uh that when people start hearing these kinds of words uh that it does uh inspire whether they are slaves whether they're Indians whether they're commoners who you know like I said they don't have uh they're not um landed gentry so yet they're going to go to this document and they're gonna say but see it says all men are created equal and this this prose uh really galvanizes a lot of people to action uh not just back then but throughout history uh for the past 250 years every single rebellion against an authority has used the the words from the Declaration of Independence to justify their rebellion um and so these words do you know even though I don't think Jefferson necessarily meant to kind of uh uh you know light that fire uh it certainly did and uh the words were vague enough that like I said people people can can cling on to all sorts of things and and yeah they will call contradictions in it um and you know one of the the the best examples of this was in 1852 a former slave uh Frederick Douglass uh is going to give a whole speech uh entitled What to the slave is your Fourth of July uh there was essentially an indictment on the American government at that time uh saying that you have all these ideals in your Declaration of Independence uh and yet are sl you know the slaves of this country have none of those rights. So uh so absolutely uh these these words are going to become immortal uh and a lot of people because of that they they view the Declaration really as this um you know this freedom-bearing document uh when in actuality like I said if you read the actual entire document uh the the whole the main point of this document isn't to tell the world that every single person is equal and everybody is free the point of the document is to say uh you know we are now making ourselves independent from great britain uh but because it includes this distillation of hundreds of years of enlightenment thought it becomes it becomes the liberty document uh that people are going to use like I said for 250 years.

SPEAKER_01 55:18

Yeah absolutely great answer mate thank you for that yeah brilliant um okay let's talk about Philadelphia now just quickly because what how does Philadelphia become the epicenter of all these events um obviously I know you said they all meet there but why do they choose Philadelphia in particular?

SPEAKER_00 55:34

Is it because it's central yeah uh ideally it's it's it's centrally located between Georgia and in you know Massachusetts uh so you can get all of the the it's easier for the the delegates to gather uh you know when they first met uh Boston was kind of the the you know the epicenter of a lot of the protests so it was away from some of that it's also the largest city in America at that time uh with about 35,000 people living there uh you know it is the biggest cosmopolitan place uh uh in the country so it being that kind of central location that's really why they why they gather there and that building you see right there of course is the uh rented house where uh you know reconstructed where um Thomas Jefferson is going to actually uh write uh that draft of the Declaration of Independence and uh you can see uh over there on the the left the uh the the portable desk uh that he used to actually write those words on which uh you know I know Smithsonian has that and if you've ever been able to see it in person it's it's pretty pretty amazing to think of like I said the fact that these words are discussed debated thought over for 250 years and to to see the actual object of that was written on is is pretty just an amazing thing. And then the other image there you can see John Adams and and Franklin reviewing his draft there uh which again is just if you ever seen the uh HBO miniseries John Adams it's a great uh uh they their episode two is is excellent in really kind of showing you that what that process probably looked like again we don't have we don't have uh you know written notes of exactly what the discussions were but it must have been uh uh truly amazing to see those three great minds together debating these words that we still debate today so yeah absolutely so if you were a fly on the wall mark would you like to have been in that room or would you like to have been in uh this one which is the picture that's behind you so what this is quite a famous painting isn't it so just explain what the what's happening in this um famous painting if you would mind yeah so this is a great painting uh by the American painter John Trombow um and this was done in the early 1800s it's uh you know the you Brits ha have all these great artists and uh you know Americans really wanted to have their own art uh that showcased their own history too uh so John Trombow was was one of those early painters uh very much in the style of like uh another American painter Benjamin West uh but of course they would go to to England to study and Trumbull did that as well um and Trumbull wanted to do something yeah about this this declaration and so this image you see uh it's pretty amazing it shows it didn't show all the signers but it shows a large number of them uh in independent well it was the Pennsylvania Statehouse and then it's it becomes uh called today independence hall and he actually got individual portraits of as many of the old signers as he could so most of these are all you know either taken from life or uh near relations and it shows them all in the room and there in the center you can see that uh committee of five uh giving the first draft uh and so most people think this is showing July 4th uh this is actually June 28th when they uh is set uh put up the first draft of the declaration and like I said everybody calls it the signing of the declaration but of course that didn't happen for for August um and yes there's a great shot of the uh independence hall today uh which if none of you have ever visited there I'd really encourage you it's uh it it's a humbling place to to be in because this is where that Congress met this is where they voted on independence and it continues to be the center of the American government for most of the war uh and then after the war it becomes the place where the Constitutional Convention happens when the United States actually sets up their constitution so uh lots of layers of history there um and uh and yeah you can see another version of them uh this one actually I think shows them signing the Declaration of Independence uh but uh the the John Trumbull version you actually see in the United States Capitol today and it's a massive painting uh but it's a it's it it's a great painting but I think it also is a little does a little injustice because it shows them you know they look very stately very calm like they're just uh doing something uh important um and we tend to think of that of our founding uh you don't realize how fragile everything was uh and as I mentioned uh Philadelphia is the largest city with about 35,000 people while they were actually signing that document uh an army of over 32,000 soldiers and sailors was entering New York Harbor uh to you know uh battle Washington's army there so there the invasion force was bigger than their big biggest city so that just gives you a sense of how large you know an invasion Great Britain was uh going to be doing there. Um and so uh uh so it was very you know John Adams I think actually saw that that painting when it came out and uh uh you know didn't think it was the most historically accurate um but but yeah like I said I I think it it does justice to many of the signers uh and it's a good way to remember them uh and what they were willing to to put on the line for that declaration. Absolutely and this painting you have there that's independence hall as well but that's that's George Washington standing there at the Constitutional Convention in 1787 uh which yeah was a whole whole nother story in its own in its own right absolutely and I know you said obviously august the second is the the you know the uh famous sign in um so is that is that celebrated at uh you know as well or is that something that's just sort of relatively forgotten by uh you know people that obviously know their history but not as as well as someone like myself or you uh yeah no that's that's largely forgotten um yeah like like I say I think the the vote for independence on July 2nd the signing on August 2nd uh that's generally forgotten everybody just really celebrates July 4th uh and yeah everybody like I said most people celebrate it as America's birthday I don't know how much they actually view it you know within the the context of this historical event um but uh uh but no once you start digging into it I mean it's pretty amazing what they did and then when you look at what the founders you know I said they pledge their lives their fortunes their sacred honor uh a lot of them do end up losing their fortunes in the war uh some are in prison during the war by the British uh you know they like I said they really are taking life and limb in hand by uh by engaging in in that kind of treason um but uh but yeah so but today yeah it's generally just July 4th it's celebrated and even back then that was the case uh so uh you know July 4th is celebrated by George Washington's army in 1777 in every year of the war they're gonna have a celebration in the camps uh among the soldiers various cities celebrate july fourth throughout the war and like I said that's gonna be continued uh to be the case all the way up until today absolutely and again uh you made a great point about the fact that we're still right in the middle of this horrible war and like you said just as they're you know signing that document or and that the whole of New York is getting swamped by you know Great Britain's Britain soldiers.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:52

So I was going to ask you what is their response when they find out that this document has been signed I mean that they they wouldn't have been happy would they?

SPEAKER_00 1:04:03

No uh furious actually uh the King George's uh uh well the the army that shows up is under the command of uh William Howe and his brother Richard Howe has the navy uh they're given by King George the ability uh to uh pardon certain of these uh rebellious colonists um but they are given a list of men who are in no way to be pardoned uh and many of them are the ones that are in that Congress and their leaders uh King George actually referred to them you know the commoners as being deluded uh uh by these uh um by their ungrateful leaders uh and really viewed that if they could cut off the head of this uh rebellion that the the masses would come back into the fold uh and so there's really going to be after the thrashing that Washington's army gets at the Battle of Long Island at the end of August uh there is going to be a con uh convening of some of those members of the Congress and uh and uh Richard Howe at a place called the Conference House uh that's actually on Staten Island still exists you can visit it today uh where he tries to convince them like hey if you give up this whole independence thing we can end this war and you all can come right back into the fold uh and at that point though it was too late um and so they said no uh so the war is gonna go on um and on it goes uh the war's gonna end up lasting eight years uh goes numerous up and downs throughout the war and a heavy toll. A lot of people don't realize how much blood was shed during the American Revolution. Over the course of the eight years about 25,000 Americans die which in a in in in the colonies there's only about 2.5 million people living there at the time. So that's that's 1% of their whole population that's wiped out. Um and I always tell people that if you actually go to Independence Hall, what a lot of people don't go to is if you walk out the back of Independence Hall and you go back to the right, you'll actually see a little park there called Washington Square Park. Uh, and there is a tomb, uh a mass grave of thousands of people, including soldiers of the war. And they actually dug up one of these soldiers who had died, and they buried him in a sarcophagus, and it's called the tomb of the unknown revolutionary war soldier. Uh, and it's a very moving place uh because then you see the real human uh uh you know the the real human cost of what these men did in that building by signing that independence. They're gonna sign it with ink, but they'll ultimately seal it with blood, uh, because it's gonna it's gonna cost the blood of of thousands of men on the battlefield, in prison hulks, uh of disease, uh in camps, uh all to uphold uh the independence of the the American states at that point.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:08

So absolutely. Thanks, Mark. Can I just ask as well? I have included this because I'll I'll I want to know just for myself. So I'm talking about the Betsy Ross flag. Now, how how you know, and again, so does this when does the flag actually come about? I know you said obviously you've got your independence, but the war is still raging on. When do we first see uh the American flag?

SPEAKER_00 1:07:33

Yeah, so uh the flag is actually going to be designated as the national c uh colors of the United States a year later, uh June 14, 1777 is when uh that is going to pass a resolution in Congress saying that it will be like what you see there. It says, you know, 13 red and white stripes, uh a blue canton with 13 stars. Uh it doesn't say necessarily in a circle, so you see lots of different versions of the flag. Um but uh that's celebrated today as flag day in the United States of America. Um but uh the common story you hear is of Betsy Ross. Uh Betsy Ross was a flagmaker in Philadelphia, uh, but much of the story about her, you know, is probably apocryphal. Uh so you know, she taught there's a story that she was making the flag and Washington actually proposed uh uh five-point stars on it. Um there's no record for sure of that, but that became kind of a common myth in the 19th century. Um and so often that flag you see there is called the Betsy Ross flag. Um we don't have any extant examples of that flag from the Revolutionary War era. There are many different versions of banners that were flown on battlefields and forts and things like that that had some kind of stripes and stars, uh, but not necessarily exactly the way you see there. Um many of the soldiers that were fighting at New York and Trenton and Princeton, they were carrying flags uh that just you know had the word liberty written across it. Um so there's there's numerous different types of flag, but that flag is is solidified as the flag in June of 1777, but um but we don't know how much it actually looked exactly like that and where exactly it would have flown.

SPEAKER_01 1:09:30

Oh, that's a shame. That's a shame. But yeah, no, fantastic. And uh thanks for adding that there. And of course, Mark, as you know, like you said, there's many, many months and years to go of this horrible war, and that is another podcast on its own. Um so we're gonna leave that there and park that today. But all that is left to say at this point, Mark, is thank you so much for giving up your time to come and tell us about the Declaration of Independence.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:58

Yes, no, absolutely. Um, thank you. Uh and you know it it's amazing. I think uh, you know, it's something that Americans celebrate here uh every year. Um, and they don't necessarily know, like I said, all of the history, uh, but once they start digging into it, it's really fascinating. So I really hope that your audience really has a better understanding of some of that that context. Uh and and like I said, you know, I think that the ideological forefathers uh from Great Britain are really to thank for many of these ideals and uh unfortunate that it had to come to blows in ultimate independency, but uh but yeah, no, we we owe a a debt of gratitude for for our forefathers uh over there in Great Britain as well.

SPEAKER_01 1:10:49

Well, thank you, Mark. And again, all that is left to say, ladies and gentlemen, is happy birthday, America. Cheers. Cheers.